Archived Talk 1 [[1]]
RfC
Yes, I posted the RfC more than twenty-four hours ago. I assume that's why we're seeing comments from people who haven't previously been involved in editing the page. JamesMLane 21:49, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Godwin's law
You might want to check out Talk:Godwin's law, where Mike Godwin himself has stopped by to discuss the Wikipedia article. JamesMLane 11:00, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
3RR
1. I'm afraid that I don't know what "summarily the same" means.
- And you teach at Oxford???
- I know what "summarily dismissed" or "summarily exectued" mean. My guess is that you mant that they were the saem in basic intent or content — but that's not enough for a 3RR violation. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:10, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- They are the same in content to a dgree...I see that they aren't as far as the 3RR rule applies.
- I know what "summarily dismissed" or "summarily exectued" mean. My guess is that you mant that they were the saem in basic intent or content — but that's not enough for a 3RR violation. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:10, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
2. I made no personal attacks, and said nothing about your motivations.
- Then what do you call this[[2]]
- Neither a personal attack nor a comment about your motivation. I can see that a misunderstanding of personal attackmight have led you atray with regard to the former claim, but the latter leaves me completely at a loss. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:10, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Your statement that I utilize my account primarily for disruption is a personal attack..perhaps you didn't blatently curse me, but how else can a person read your comment unless, by your definition, it isn't a personal attack but an opinion you have. By my interpretation of the comment, you both make a claim as to my purpose and as to my motivations.
- Neither a personal attack nor a comment about your motivation. I can see that a misunderstanding of personal attackmight have led you atray with regard to the former claim, but the latter leaves me completely at a loss. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:10, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
3. I'm not sure how a "predisposed bias" differs from an ordinary bias, but I suffer from neither; I looked at the evidence.
- After the first two comments, it would be hard for me to believe that you know what evidence is.
- It's what I found in your contributions history, and what I found in the edit history of the article in question. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:10, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
4. Incidentally, you may, of course, delete material from your Talk page, though it's generally considered as an indication that you have something to hide. The material that you've been deleting is not, however, vandalism — not on any definition of that term, and certainly not on Wikipedia's. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 13:31, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- My deletion of this nonsense is due to the opinion that this person is a vandal who also vandalized my user page...I have nothing to "hide" as it is all right there in the history, isn't it.
- So whatever someone who has (putatively) vandalised in one place does is ipso facto vandalism, regardless of content? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:10, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Since I can track an IP and identify where it originates to, then are you suggesting that since this poster is, in all liklihood the same one that vandalized my user page with the things that he wrote, that he can be trusted to make good faith edits elsewhere?...not hardly. Perhaps Wikipedia needs to give more parameters for those persons who need to block multiple IP users.
- So whatever someone who has (putatively) vandalised in one place does is ipso facto vandalism, regardless of content? Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 14:10, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I assume this is in reference to me, if you would be so kind, what exactly was this 'vandalism'? Thanks. -bro 172.147.73.11 22:44, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I tracked your IP...you are one and the same and we both know what I am talking about. New IP already I see...how convienent.
- I assume this is in reference to me, if you would be so kind, what exactly was this 'vandalism'? Thanks. -bro 172.147.73.11 22:44, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- As I've already mentioned, I am on dialup. As I have also mentioned regarding the vandalism you attributed to me on the 3RR page, we do indeed share the same ISP, along with millions of others. I certainly object to what you labeled vandalism in my posts here on your userpage, but as I said then, thats your perogative. You only have your own reputation to tarnish in throwing around accusations and insults. -bro 172.147.73.11
00:14, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- If anyone's reputation is at stake, it is yours for your continued refusal to create a user page...what's with this adolescent "bro" crap? the wording you cite is in the linked text so it's not like your contribution is any great discovery.
- As mentioned on the talk page, the whole of the paragraph is listed in the linked text, so your reasoning is deeply flawed. Putting aside the personal attack in the 'adolescent' crack, bro is the moniker I use to allow people to recognize me in other ways than the IP address. I suppose MONGO is somehow more professional? -bro 172.147.73.11 00:39, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It's an actual nickname given to me...being 6'8" and about 265 pounds, friends thought I reminded them of the character played by actor Alex Karras in the movie Blazing Saddles...it's a Montana thing, kid.
Image:Elliott Knob.jpg
Hi. You uploaded Image:Elliott Knob.jpg but did not list any source and/or copyright information on the image description page. Please mark it either as GFDL or public domain. See Image copyright tags for more info. If the image was uploaded in error or cannot be licensed for use on Wikipedia, please add it to images for deletion. Please note that images without copyright information may be deleted in the future. Thanks. RedWolf 16:36, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)
- Hi. I wasn't implying the image was a copyright violation but I think you've realized that with your comments on my talk page. What I wrote above is a standard blurb I place on user talk pages concerning images that do not have source/copyright info. I copy/paste it from a local file to save time. Thanks for your quick response in identifying this photo as your own. I might mention that if you are planning to upload any more photos, you might want to consider putting them onto Commons (instead of uploading them onto the English wiki) so that the photos can be readily used by the other language wikis. There's nothing special you need to do to reference the images on Commons. Use the same image markup as if the image was on this Wiki and the server will automatically look on Commons if it can't find it on here. RedWolf June 28, 2005 04:28 (UTC)
Taken from talk: Fahrenheit_9/11/Not_a_documentary"
- Now it's a poll? I always thought it was a request for comments. Regardless, Moore's movie is a propaganda documentary at the very least..his removal from considerations for any potential Oscars to ensure it would be seen on video by voters prior to the 2004 elections is all the proof we need.--MONGO 15:03, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- If it were to be assumed that Moore's movie isn't propaganda, this would not change his desire to show it prior to the 2004 elections. So you're saying if it wasn't propaganda, he wouldn't have shown it? --kizzle 00:37, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)
- Moore's movie Bowling for Columbine did well in awards and F911 did well at Cannes...he made the arrangements to ensure the movie would get on video before the elctions and by doing so he knew it would be eliminated from any Oscar considerations...but did it anyway. I can't say that he wouldn't have shown it...but I can say that it seems a little "timely"...although, due to the potentialities of bigger revenues some could also claim that his motivations were apolitical and instead based on money...somehow, I would not be inclined to believe this to be the case.--MONGO 07:23, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- No, I agree he tried to release it on video to sway potential voters, he even admitted as much on his web-site. I just don't see how this a priori renders F9/11 propaganda? --kizzle 21:08, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)
- Perhaps caling it propaganda isn't best...regardless, his efforts didn't work...the more the Democrats allow the hollywood bunch to do their talking for them, the more mainstream/centrist Americans become alienated and the harder it will be for the Democrats to regain the White House.--MONGO 21:33, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I'm real sick of that line, heard it about a billion times. You must watch Fox News a lot. Kerry didn't lose because of F9/11, nor did it have a negative effect on his poll numbers, unless you want to cite a poll to prove me wrong. It actually had the opposite, and helped the base along with undecideds. Just because Kerry lost, doesn't mean you can look at everything he did and say, see that's why he lost. If Bush arbitrarily had 120,000 less votes in Ohio, you could cite about a billion reasons why he lost overall.
- Perhaps caling it propaganda isn't best...regardless, his efforts didn't work...the more the Democrats allow the hollywood bunch to do their talking for them, the more mainstream/centrist Americans become alienated and the harder it will be for the Democrats to regain the White House.--MONGO 21:33, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- No, I agree he tried to release it on video to sway potential voters, he even admitted as much on his web-site. I just don't see how this a priori renders F9/11 propaganda? --kizzle 21:08, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)
- Moore's movie Bowling for Columbine did well in awards and F911 did well at Cannes...he made the arrangements to ensure the movie would get on video before the elctions and by doing so he knew it would be eliminated from any Oscar considerations...but did it anyway. I can't say that he wouldn't have shown it...but I can say that it seems a little "timely"...although, due to the potentialities of bigger revenues some could also claim that his motivations were apolitical and instead based on money...somehow, I would not be inclined to believe this to be the case.--MONGO 07:23, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- If it were to be assumed that Moore's movie isn't propaganda, this would not change his desire to show it prior to the 2004 elections. So you're saying if it wasn't propaganda, he wouldn't have shown it? --kizzle 00:37, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)
- Now it's a poll? I always thought it was a request for comments. Regardless, Moore's movie is a propaganda documentary at the very least..his removal from considerations for any potential Oscars to ensure it would be seen on video by voters prior to the 2004 elections is all the proof we need.--MONGO 15:03, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- The best way Democrats can regain the White House is to somehow educate the mainstream/centrist/republicans is that these people represent a fringe extremist section of the Republican party, and do not, in fact, speak for the majority of people except for hard-core chickenhawks who believe that the best Midde-Eastern policy is to get our hands in their political system as much as possible to avoid a Pan-Arabic movement that spurns World War III. 95% of Americans (upper middle-class, middle-class, and the poor), even those in the heartland, care about is having a good job, caring for their family, and being able to express their ideas in a free society. Somehow, these people must be taught that the Republican party as run today only represents the 5% that cares about how their stock is doing, and how they can increase the shareholder price of their corporation by firing US workers and hiring labor for a quarter of the price in India. That is how the Democrats will win, not whether or not some movie comes out. Your attribution of significance to Michael Moore is over-emphasized, it is the Democratic party which needs to change, not Hollywood, who, in making movies, has a right to express their beliefs just like any other American, or is there an inverse relationship between the amount of fame you have and your right to freedom of speech? Extremism is bad in either direction, be it Michael Moore or George W. Bush (meaning Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz), once people know these extremists for who they are and vote their conscience rather than their personal ability to make money off the candidate or that you could see yourself "buying a beer" with him, we can keep them out of the White House altogether and not be in the deep shit we are in, with the rest of the world who hates us, a country with a president's approval ratings the worst since the last president to forcefully resign in shame from the office, and a war with no end in sight, no exit strategy, and less troops and recruits by the day. --kizzle 22:51, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)
Continued:
- Kizzle, corporations always look for the cheapest labor...this has happened throughout history...firing American workers is bad, but the American consumer wants products delivered to them at a certain rate and to remain competitive, corporations always look at ways to cut costs and one way to do this is through outsourcing their labor. I don't like this either, but to assume that corporations are solely hell bent on screwing over the American worker is incorrect..that doesn't mean that I have any admiration for the CEO's or the other fat cats in charge either.
- True, but extrapolate the situation into the future, all things being equal and considering current trends stay the way they are, do you see this as a good thing or bad? Of COURSE corporations are not bent on screwing over the American worker, but they do not have any responsibility to them either. Mainly, assuming things stay the way they are and more corporations outsource labor to foreign countries, what do you see the impact is on American life?--kizzle 23:42, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)
- It has a lot to do with globalization...I don't agree with it, but it is what the market will bear...in time perhaps their will be more parity for the rest of the world to the standards economically with the U.S., but the sweatshops may provide a higher standard of living than those people may enjoy currently, but since they live within their means, they become hostages to the income and without proper labor laws in place in those countries, they are almost universally takne advantage of...long term this will breed increased animositites towards the U.S. Long term for the American worker, I'm not sure what the outlook is. My experience with the private sector is that it is a dog eat dog world and few of them have any feelings of obligations to their staffs.
- What is the impact on *American life* given continuously increasing outsourcing of American jobs to foreign countries? Is this not ok but to hunt for a possible solution is too hard? --kizzle 00:45, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)
- I don't think the corporate world cares. You can always be replaced...this happens all the time. Eventually the only things we will end up exporting is technology and military arms cause we aren't do much manufacturing here otherwise. The world becomes more interdependent everyday and the only good thing is that due to this need for one another, perhaps it will reduce the chances of war...as far as the American worker, well, all he/she can do is continue to get retrained and to be prepared to commit to the understanding that they are expendable...it stinks, but that's probably not going to change.
- K, that's what I thought your answer would be, that it sucks, its only going to get worse, but its probably not going to change. --kizzle 01:33, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)
- I don't think the corporate world cares. You can always be replaced...this happens all the time. Eventually the only things we will end up exporting is technology and military arms cause we aren't do much manufacturing here otherwise. The world becomes more interdependent everyday and the only good thing is that due to this need for one another, perhaps it will reduce the chances of war...as far as the American worker, well, all he/she can do is continue to get retrained and to be prepared to commit to the understanding that they are expendable...it stinks, but that's probably not going to change.
- What is the impact on *American life* given continuously increasing outsourcing of American jobs to foreign countries? Is this not ok but to hunt for a possible solution is too hard? --kizzle 00:45, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)
- It has a lot to do with globalization...I don't agree with it, but it is what the market will bear...in time perhaps their will be more parity for the rest of the world to the standards economically with the U.S., but the sweatshops may provide a higher standard of living than those people may enjoy currently, but since they live within their means, they become hostages to the income and without proper labor laws in place in those countries, they are almost universally takne advantage of...long term this will breed increased animositites towards the U.S. Long term for the American worker, I'm not sure what the outlook is. My experience with the private sector is that it is a dog eat dog world and few of them have any feelings of obligations to their staffs.
- Moore has every right to produce whatever he wants and I would never impede on that. I was merely saying without attributing Kerry's loss to Bush just because of Moore's movie, that regardless of what Moore's likly hopes were from ensuring the movie made it to video prior to the election, Moore's efforts did not contribute enough to ensure a democratic victory.
- Fair enough, but I think that was Kerry's incompetence more than the Democratic party. --kizzle 23:42, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)
- Kerry was viewed and portrayed as a northeastern liberal and this, regardless of it's factuality, probably cost him the election. I personally had no beef with the guy.
- Unfornately, I would be much more likly to have a beer with Cheney than I would Michael Moore...in fact I wouldn't even have a beer with Sean Penn, Tim Robbins or any of the other elistist holly types...the reason...they only use their position as a platform to spew their opinion...I don't like it when people of fame think that because they have access to the media they can use that as their political pulpit...this does not mean that I disagree with them...I just simply don't care what their opinion is...not do I care about what they do on Saturday mornings or who they slept with or anything else about their private lives...I wish they would just recognize that they simply have occupations that put them in the limelight, but overall, I don't respect their opinions or find their talents in their respective fields to be any more specialized than a finish carpenter....the carpenter may have great expertise, but without access to the media, their opinion is never heard...what great gift of insight does the hollywood movie star have? Zero...they live in a fantasy world.
- Of course, and being one of the biggest South Park fans in the world, you are in agreement with its creator in Team America's (one of my favorite movies) take on things. I'm somewhere in-between... these people have opinions too and in my mind are welcome to share it. It's when they believe that their opinion matters *because* they are a celebrity and not of the merit of the argument they are making, that I have a problem, which is something to the effect of what Trey said. Who cares if their occupation put them in the limelight, that's why Pat Buchanan, Chris Matthews, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, and most all political pundits are there. What extremely special qualifications make them so much more authoratative or give them a license to dictate to us how they feel about current events than other celebrities? I'd take a finish carpenter to tell me the news over Hannity anyday. --kizzle 23:42, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC)
- I didn't see Team America but know that it's attempts were soley comedic and rather insulting to some. I think these guys must be conservatives, but I imagine that they are more interested simply in lampooning the big mouths that seem to use their positions of limelight for political fingerpointing. I also understand that in the movie Team America, the puppets also made American attempts to fight terrorism look rather idiotic with the puppets destroying Paris and running roughshod all over the middle east. Everyone has a right to say whatever they want, so long as they understand that this is a well educated society that has been taught for 200 plus years to question their imput. I guess those you mention above have zero special abilities as well, but it is what they do...they are not actors, they are political commentators...it is their occupation.
- C'mon Mongo, "it is their occupation"? That's the best justification you're going to give for why we get to hear hours of drivel every day from Hannity, O'Reilly, etc.? Because that's what they do? You didn't even attempt to justify their qualifications! :) Trey Parker and Matt Stone are definetely centrists who rip on both sides of the spectrum, and they take issue with Hollywood giving their opinions like you do. The brilliance in Parker's humor is disguising a well-crafted blade of social commentary with an extreme density of curses and fart jokes... doesn't sound like you buy into it, but maybe you should give it a try, specifically the South Park movie, I promise you won't be disappointed. Anyways, yes there are some Hollywood elites who believe that the world should hear them because of the celebrity status instead of their actual viewpoint, those people are definetely idiots. But we shouldn't simply ignore all of them either. It's a bit ironic in my mind that one of the most revered presidents (by Republicans) in history, Ronald Reagan, came from Hollywood. And as for a well-educated society that questions what information their given, you must be talking about another country. Cause it sure as hell isn't where I grew up. --kizzle 00:45, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)
- I'm not saying that the political commentators are correct, it's just this is their occupation...so not only do we have them on T.V. but also on the radio, sprinkled throughout the newspapers...etc. Perhaps I also overstated the abilty for Americans to question..I should have said that we have the right to question.
- Right, but I'm questioning the personal qualifications in your eyes the "pundits" possess which gives them a license (in your mind) to preach their personal viewpoints on current events that all famous people (in your mind) do not possess. --kizzle 01:33, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)
- I'm not saying that the political commentators are correct, it's just this is their occupation...so not only do we have them on T.V. but also on the radio, sprinkled throughout the newspapers...etc. Perhaps I also overstated the abilty for Americans to question..I should have said that we have the right to question.
- C'mon Mongo, "it is their occupation"? That's the best justification you're going to give for why we get to hear hours of drivel every day from Hannity, O'Reilly, etc.? Because that's what they do? You didn't even attempt to justify their qualifications! :) Trey Parker and Matt Stone are definetely centrists who rip on both sides of the spectrum, and they take issue with Hollywood giving their opinions like you do. The brilliance in Parker's humor is disguising a well-crafted blade of social commentary with an extreme density of curses and fart jokes... doesn't sound like you buy into it, but maybe you should give it a try, specifically the South Park movie, I promise you won't be disappointed. Anyways, yes there are some Hollywood elites who believe that the world should hear them because of the celebrity status instead of their actual viewpoint, those people are definetely idiots. But we shouldn't simply ignore all of them either. It's a bit ironic in my mind that one of the most revered presidents (by Republicans) in history, Ronald Reagan, came from Hollywood. And as for a well-educated society that questions what information their given, you must be talking about another country. Cause it sure as hell isn't where I grew up. --kizzle 00:45, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)
- I didn't see Team America but know that it's attempts were soley comedic and rather insulting to some. I think these guys must be conservatives, but I imagine that they are more interested simply in lampooning the big mouths that seem to use their positions of limelight for political fingerpointing. I also understand that in the movie Team America, the puppets also made American attempts to fight terrorism look rather idiotic with the puppets destroying Paris and running roughshod all over the middle east. Everyone has a right to say whatever they want, so long as they understand that this is a well educated society that has been taught for 200 plus years to question their imput. I guess those you mention above have zero special abilities as well, but it is what they do...they are not actors, they are political commentators...it is their occupation.
Kizzle, I don't know if the political commentators have any more right than anyone else...all I am saying is, and I'm not agreeing with them, that this is what they do for an occupation...actors, act for an occupation...I have no qualms about them voicing their opinion...I would just prefer if they stuck to what they do best...which is act...I really enjoy movies, but honestly, regardless if they support the NRA such as Heston and Selleck do or are very vocally opposed to the Iraq war as is Penn and Redford, I just prefer them to understand that we love them for their talent to entertain us, not for their ability to use their positions as pulpits to preach from. I'm not sure if that answers your question or not...but I let me gather my thoughts (I'll need 7-10 minutes and a book about a pet goat!) and I'll get back to you.:)--MONGO 28 June 2005 08:14 (UTC)
- I'll be waiting :). On a side note, my personal opinion about the whole pet goat episode in f9/11 is that I totally understand Bush sitting there dumbstruck by the news. We were all dumbstruck, and while I might not think it was the best course of action, I don't blame him for it. What I do blame, is his ex post facto justification that "he was trying to calm the children" which is complete bullshit. The fact that he can't admit he just froze is what pisses me off about that whole episode. --kizzle June 28, 2005 16:21 (UTC)
- I think he simply was in shock. And I think he ended up looking like a moron....maybe he is, who knows. I think you have me...as far as justifing why the actors have less right to continuously belch their political opinions than the Hannity, Limbaugh, Franken (who was an actorsort of) and the rest of the paid commentators. Again, I think the only thing I can say is that, and this is the same thing so I'll have to end on this note, is that the paid commentators do that for a living...and that probably, makes them less likely to be qualified since their motivations are based more on financial gain, than what their true opinions may be...afterall, would Limbaugh be as successful if he was sometimes radical? Whereby and actor is merely stating an opinion...and the notority of such opinion is probably not always beneficial to their career...but overall, I wish they would just stick to acting, but naturally, they ahve as much right as anyone to voice their opinions.--MONGO 28 June 2005 20:14 (UTC)
- I'll be waiting :). On a side note, my personal opinion about the whole pet goat episode in f9/11 is that I totally understand Bush sitting there dumbstruck by the news. We were all dumbstruck, and while I might not think it was the best course of action, I don't blame him for it. What I do blame, is his ex post facto justification that "he was trying to calm the children" which is complete bullshit. The fact that he can't admit he just froze is what pisses me off about that whole episode. --kizzle June 28, 2005 16:21 (UTC)
Admin
MONGO: If you have a moment I hope you would seriously consider this nomination Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Feco. Thanks.Nobs01 30 June 2005 17:12 (UTC)
- I reserach his/her contributions and consider it, thanks for believing that my opinion matters, Nobs!--MONGO 30 June 2005 19:46 (UTC)
Chinese Wall pic in the Bob
MONGO: I would encourage you to go ahead and post your Chinese Wall photo, even if it is lo-res. After all, in en, we just use 200-250 px thumbs anyway: many photos look good at that resolution. And, the pic that I used in Bob Marshall Wilderness was just taken off a random page in the Flathead National Forest web site -- I don't think it shows the Bob that well, anyway. So, feel free to dump the USFS pic for your Chinese Wall pic, if you think it's better. -- hike395 July 5, 2005 01:20 (UTC)
- Although, I did just find http://www.fs.fed.us/r1/flathead/wilderness/Wilderness.htm, which has some pretty cool pics. I may use them for the NF article, anyway. You be the judge: I don't know what your Chinese Wall pic looks like. --- hike395
- That's an awesome photo! If you have something that looks like that, I would say ditch the USFS photos and use yours, unless yours is really lo-res and obviously blurry. -- hike395 July 5, 2005 07:20 (UTC)