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:That's a threat, JLAN. I suggest you remove this. [[User:Montanabw|<font color="006600">Montanabw</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Montanabw|(talk)]]</sup> 23:19, 15 November 2011 (UTC) |
:That's a threat, JLAN. I suggest you remove this. [[User:Montanabw|<font color="006600">Montanabw</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Montanabw|(talk)]]</sup> 23:19, 15 November 2011 (UTC) |
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: Whether or not its a threat, it's generally considered rude to put that sort of templated message on a long term editor's talk page. Do you really think that doing that will help with a collaborative editing enviroment? I haven't looked at the edits involved, and perhaps the information needs to stay out if it's unsourced, but a "Welcome to Wikipedia" templated message is just going to get someone's back up and not help with resolving the dispute. Technically, it may be perfectly correct, but it's certainly not helpful. [[User:Ealdgyth|Ealdgyth]] - [[User talk:Ealdgyth|Talk]] 23:28, 15 November 2011 (UTC) |
Revision as of 23:28, 15 November 2011
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This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
Sandbox invite
Those interested may play in my sandboxes, in the archive list above, if they promise to behave. This means:
- No kicking sand
- No hitting other people over the head with toys
- No pooping, even if you are a cat and neatly cover it up!
- It's my sandbox, so I can throw you out if you misbehave! :-)
Happy Montanabw's Day!
![]() |
User:Montanabw has been identified as an Awesome Wikipedian, Peace, A record of your Day will always be kept here. |
For a userbox you can add to your userbox page, see User:Rlevse/Today/Happy Me Day! and my own userpage for a sample of how to use it. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:39, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
- Awww, gee! That was really super nice! Thank you! Montanabw(talk) 04:47, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
Cannot contain my excitement
Meet the first "yellow roan" (or however the terminology goes) Finnhorse, miss Kadelma Kuu f. 2.6.2011. Now, excuse me while I dance. Pitke (talk) 14:25, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- AKA "Palomino roan?" Montanabw(talk) 18:59, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- AKA ee CRcr RN_. Pitke (talk) 19:27, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yup Palomino roan. At least here in the states. Montanabw(talk) 19:51, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- Now I see the kind of thing which gets you really excited. Beautiful foal. Does she stay that color? BusterD (talk) 20:08, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- She'll be whiter around the body and neck, roans tend to look pretty un-roan when they're little. I'll have to try and stalk her for some photos next summer o_o Also stalk all the horsey mags and papers for the following months, she'll be recognised (=colour ans markings officially recorded) for registration in a month or two. I know a paper or three that will surely publish her just on grounds of her paper. I mean, the first (new generation) male roan, the first double cream dilute, and the two first smoky blacks last year were a big thing. Pitke (talk) 20:40, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- Now I see the kind of thing which gets you really excited. Beautiful foal. Does she stay that color? BusterD (talk) 20:08, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- Nonono, that's not the point. Finnhorse. That's both palomino and a roan. About 30 palominos and 8 roans exist in that breed. Pitke (talk) 20:16, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- We usually say the base color + roan when we do color lingo these days, hence "palomino roan." Except we still say "blue roan" (which looks like a gray but is genetically a black roan) Go figure. Roan being a dominant gene, there will be more roans. Interesting that mama looks like a bay roan. Was papa a palomino or a cremello? (Must have been?) Montanabw(talk) 21:43, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- Papa is palomino, a non-studbook stallion by another non-studbook stallion (out of Täti Moonika), mama indeed is a bay roan, a result of deliberate breeding. Roan is probably going to survive, thanks to deliberate colour breeding, but it'll be a while before we'll see any studbook registered roans. Hopefully that colt I mentioned earlier (the only male roan) will get mares outside of his breeder's herd... Or maybe even gets leased or sold to someone who has the will and means to take him into studbook. Luckily, the studbook status of the parents only really matters with the trotter section. Pitke (talk) 20:02, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
Why do you say it will be awhile? Are none of the roans eligible to be registered, or have they simply not yet passed the performance testing? Roan, being a dominant trait (like gray) will keep increasing faster in the population than would a more recessive condition(?). It will be interesting to see what develops. Montanabw(talk) 20:12, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
- Well, it's not like they're not eligible...My guess is that their owner simply just doesn't feel the need, and wants to concentrate their efforts on securing the survival of the colour. Mares can be studbook registered even without a competitive record, but my guess is, the board isn't going to be favourable if she has no competitive history, and is of non-studbook parents, and possesses less than stellar conformation and qualities. And getting a colt into studbook would be an outright job! The little fella would need to place on national level to qualify for R section, which means it'll be probably a minimum of 7-9 years before studbook can even be mentioned. The there's the fact that the older mares are nearing 20, and each has only managed to produce one or two roans IIRC; their (pretty late born) daughters have been bred young; I imagine, to secure the line's continuity after one or two roan cousins died infertile or untimely. And of course, it's breeding for colour with a single, very narrow line. You gotta breed what you have, and studbook registering has little value if your horses are the sole 8 roans in the entire breed. And if you live up north, the horse needs to be pretty dem great to pay the ~200 dollar examination fee and all that gas, not to mention the waste of time, just to get an extra letter in its registry number. Pitke (talk) 23:42, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- Seems weird to preserve the color in an unregistered line. Is this an exercise in futility or am I missing something? Could these horses, say, great-great-grand-offspring eventually be registered if the parents have SOME record, or will they vanish from the official studbook altogether? Montanabw(talk) 23:24, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Not to worry! The studbook regulations don't directly require the parents to have aquired anything. Of course, things are easier, especially for stallions, if both parents are sb. reg'd, and for stallions sb. reg almost definitely required some competitive success, but the rules do accept registering a horse for breeding if he/she's just that dang good. (No, I don't actually know what they would do if someone presented them a DNA certified pureblood Finnhorse stallion with mindbogglingly beautiful conformation, but also a pedigree full of secret hidden bush Finnponies that EU or Suomen Hippos know nothing about... if he hadn't taken part in anything during his lifetime, but could perform dazzling dressage any day and clear a 5-foot course without losing breath... Would they say "that's nice, we're sure you can score a few national level placings, come back once you're done"? Or would they wet their pants with glee and, after a few more DNA confirmations just to be sure this isn't a cruel cruel joke, gladly accept him with much praise and jubilee?)
- As for roans and studbook related babble, Taikuriina's sole roan daughter (they alone consist roan branch 2/2) Taikan Muisto has been taken to conformational shows, although her success indicates she's either not stud book material, or a late bloomer. And to be frank, the other branch would benefit from a generation or two of good sires too. Taika-Varpu at 3 isn't awful but ... Taikan Muisto at 2 is better, although with dinky little hooves and smallish joints (for all I know of horse conformation), and weak-looking knees.
- If I understand the breeder's intentions, they know what they have, i.e. not stallion-making material. The chances that these more or less homely mares produce a colt of such conformation that it can pass the stud book examinations and attract mare owners who wouldn't breed to a roan just because he is roan are low (additionally, until Taikahuure was foaled in 2010, many actually believed a genetic superstition that male roans would be impossible in Finnhorses!). Fillies will be easy to sb. reg in case they show good promise. And of course, should a colt turn out so good that they wanted to try and sb reg him, they can just, this is an exaggeration, blow the "sb. reg my mare" whistle the day before they enter him to make him pass his pedigree formalities. :) Pitke (talk) 18:52, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- Tl;dr version: provided they are of quality, any of their pureblooded descendants (and the animals themselves) can be registered in the studbook. In case of males, it is fairly easy to satisfy the de facto rule of having both parents sb-regged since the breeders use sb sires, and sb-regging a mare is pretty much a breeze. In case of females, well, breeze. Pitke (talk) 23:02, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- Interesting how even nations with licensing can work the rules when they really, truly want to! LOL! ;-) Montanabw(talk) 15:52, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Tl;dr version: provided they are of quality, any of their pureblooded descendants (and the animals themselves) can be registered in the studbook. In case of males, it is fairly easy to satisfy the de facto rule of having both parents sb-regged since the breeders use sb sires, and sb-regging a mare is pretty much a breeze. In case of females, well, breeze. Pitke (talk) 23:02, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Stuck
Ok, you said you'd help find me material to work on. What needs help? TaylorLanebore me 01:33, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- Hi Taylor! You might want to try looking at this list, which shows all of the Equine WP articles that have maintenance tags on them. Or the articles in Category:Horse stubs or Category:Equestrian biography stubs, which list equine articles with stub tags on them. Just some thoughts on places to get started! Dana boomer (talk) 01:42, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- Hello Taylor and glad to see you back! Let me know what some of your favorite topics are, and I can probably point you to the best areas... you did a nice job with the article on Authentic, and we have plenty of horse "biographies" that need help, and some famous horse people as well -- There are a lot of people redlinked at List of Olympic medalists in equestrian. (Hey Dana, why are none of the horses wikilinked there? Some have articles...??) Dana's suggestion to work on expanding stubs is also a great one, and if you have other areas of interest, we can point you at the articles most desperately in need of work that are still within your idea of what might be fun! Montanabw(talk) 17:34, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- Horses are wikilinked when they have articles, it's just that most of them don't. If some have articles and haven't been linked, this is just an oversight and should be corrected. Dana boomer (talk) 21:32, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- Taylor! There's a job for you right there! In a quick look, I noticed that Custom Made (aka "Tailor") has an article but isn't linked on the list. That's a great cleanup project (my guess is that the USA and UK horses are apt to have articles, as are the more recent animals from the 90s and 00s) Montanabw(talk) 22:22, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- Ok! I'll work on Custom Made :)... Thanks!!!!! --TaylorLanebore me 18:56, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
New article on ceramics prof at MSU-Bozeman, if you care to help. PumpkinSky talk 17:15, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- Cool! I met her once, I think, in her retirement. Quite elderly even then, but also quite sharp. Montanabw(talk) 15:49, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Totally off-topic!
Just in case you didn't see them on my talk page, Rocket's second-lesson videos are uploaded! Bearing in mind that (a) this was only his second lesson, and (b) this is the baby who fractured my skull when he was an even smaller baby, we're soooooo pleased with him! One very, very smart li'l guy :D. And OK, yeah, good-looking too! (Adding: COI? POV-pushing? Never heard of it!)
Pesky (talk …stalk!) 05:47, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- Yep, me neither, also not off-wiki chat on a user page, either! :-D Montanabw(talk) 17:39, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- So what did you think of him, huh? Was he amazing, or was he brilliant? :D (And have you ever heard of the "alternative close"? lol!) He'll be going back out to the Forest for about 9 months soon, to give him some "thinking time" before we move on to the next stage. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 08:17, 29 October 2011 (UTC)
- Haven't viewed all, I must admit. But what I LOVE about the NF approach is that you create mentally healthy horses by letting them just be horses! I think that is 100% the BEST thing that can happen to a young horse. I just lost my dear 31 year old mare, I think she was the wonderful horse she was in part because she got to grow up on the side of a mountain with a herd of her "peers", interspersed with proper training. You Commoners are seriously doing some very good things! Montanabw(talk) 01:23, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- It really does have to be the very best way to let them grow up, I'm sure. Such a shame that most people don't have the facilities to do it this way! Our totally-diva chestnut mare has changed personality so much since we turned her out to the Forest - and she looks sooo much happier now! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 13:15, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- At the very least, even modest turnout space with a group allows for much mentally healthier animals than those stuck in a box all day (we humans go nutty in a 12 x 12 office cubicle, horses do amazing not to go any nuttier than they do in theirs!) I find it ironic that people claim to have no room for even simple turnout when the reality is that they have no clue how to manage horses into workable social groups, putting far too many animals in too small a place and then claiming that turnout is bad because the horses get hurt! (Fix the fences, plan the space, separate completely incompatible animals, oh how I could go on and on...)
I'd like to do an article on the Yogo sapphire. Do you have or can you get one or more free images of them? I can't find any. I have, or perhaps used to have, a Yogo mounted in white gold, but I'll be darned if I can find it. PumpkinSky talk 22:32, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Cool idea! I'll see if the guys who own the jewelry store up the street from my office will let me take a photo of one with my cell phone or (if I remember to bring the camera) something of somewhat higher quality. Montanabw(talk) 02:35, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
- This is in my Sandbox2. I'm essentially done with web refs and now working my way through the Voynick book on Yogos that I have. I guess another week, so there's still time to obtain a photo or two. PumpkinSky talk 01:53, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Keep nagging me (grin). All I have to do is get off the dime on this. Squeaky wheel and all. Literally, there's a jewelry store a block from my office. I CAN do this. Montanabw(talk) 03:15, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Tim said he got his two Yogos out of his safe deposit box and will take pics. But the more pics the better ;-) PumpkinSky talk 09:48, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- I have uploaded a photo of a purple Yogo. Let me know what you think. Middle of next week I'll be able to take pic of cornflower blue one and that's roughly the time I hope to be done adding material to my sandbox2. PumpkinSky talk 22:58, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Nice. We all need macro lenses, don't we? LOL! Montanabw(talk) 23:59, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- I have uploaded a photo of a purple Yogo. Let me know what you think. Middle of next week I'll be able to take pic of cornflower blue one and that's roughly the time I hope to be done adding material to my sandbox2. PumpkinSky talk 22:58, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Tim said he got his two Yogos out of his safe deposit box and will take pics. But the more pics the better ;-) PumpkinSky talk 09:48, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
- Keep nagging me (grin). All I have to do is get off the dime on this. Squeaky wheel and all. Literally, there's a jewelry store a block from my office. I CAN do this. Montanabw(talk) 03:15, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
Article created
I've moved my Yogo sandbox to mainspace. Posting to Montanabw's and Tim1965's talk pages. A few thoughts:
- Unless Montanabw objects, I'd like Tim1965 to do the DYK nom BUT please wait til I get a Creative Commons release on a photo I have a lead on (it's a very good pic) AND let's throw our noggins together on good hooks. This is FULL of hook possibilities. Let's do this discussion on the new article talk page
- There are almost 80 numbered refs and it's over 41K big, not bad for a new article
- On the DYK mention it was moved from sandbox 6 NOV, so they'd won't say it's overdue. I started OCT 25. log here
- Copyedit help from all and asssistance in meeting all wiki policies greatly appreciated.
- Let's centralize all discussion on the new article talk page.
- the mine and the gem are so intertwined I lean to leaving it all in one article vice a separate mine article
- PumpkinSky talk 19:37, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- I've put up a different photo of the purple Yogo. Do you think it's better? PumpkinSky talk 20:25, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- Got the photo release and put the pic in the article. DYK is a go once we have a hook(s). PumpkinSky talk 00:53, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- I've put up a different photo of the purple Yogo. Do you think it's better? PumpkinSky talk 20:25, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
Coolness! Will report there! Yessir! Montanabw(talk) 05:20, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
A little light entertainment
... for you and the stalkers :D
OCD | This user appreciates the huge benefits of having OCD |
my new essay. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 13:12, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
- **Blows beverage out nose** the soap comment to die for! LOL! Montanabw(talk) 03:15, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
New images and changes in fiador knot, take a look
![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Fiador-mockup-with-Becket_hitch-Fiador_knot-and-Bottle_sling.jpg/170px-Fiador-mockup-with-Becket_hitch-Fiador_knot-and-Bottle_sling.jpg)
Hi there... I just wanted to mention that I've added several images to the fiador knot article, one of which (shown right) might also be useful in the fiador (tack) article. The knots shown are based on diagrams found in Bruce Grant's 1972 Encyclopedia of Rawhide and Leather Braiding. Please also take a look at the changes I made to the description of how the knot is used -- the article originally read that it's the fiador knot itself that goes around the heel knot, but this seems incorrect (and not likely to work in any case.) Feel free to fix and/or let me know about anything that looks off.
BTW, I noticed that in the book mentioned above the bottle sling (aka Hackamore knot) is actually partially threaded through the bosal and heel knot, rather than just being around it. I left this detail out for now, but I wondered if this is just an idiosyncratic way that Bruce Grant shows it, or whether it's actually the correct/preferred way. I've been working on the bottle sling article today also, and may want to mention something about the threading method in there if it's actually the widespread/proper use of the knot when attaching to a bosal. If you don't know what I'm talking about I can provide more detail... --Dfred (talk) 23:28, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'll take a peek, thanks. Montanabw(talk) 21:14, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for the cleanups in fiador knot, and for the clarification positioning of the fiador knot. One question though: does the fiador really get its name from the fiador knot? The description of the Spanish use of fiador in the Origins section of that article (and wikt:fiador#Spanish) indicates the word has been associated with at least a few different types of cords/lanyards owing to their function in securing/protecting/preventing something. So, if anything, wouldn't the naming more logically have flowed in the other direction when the knot became commonly used on an item with that name already? (Incidentally, it is interesting to consider how the use of the term fiador for the neck cord of a cloak (from 1794) might relate to the equestrian use.)
- That slight variation in attaching the hackamore knot/bottle sling to the heel knot I mentioned above is also shown in another poster from the site you pointed me to... Note the two diagrams on the second row (even with the horse's eyes) in this image. You may have to zoom in, but you'll see how the two terminal bights of the fiador are partially withdrawn, the heel knot put through, and then the two bights returned to position after being passed between the "legs" of the bosal above the heel knot. This connects the fiador to the bosal even more securely than the normal application of the bottle sling. It seems intended to increase security and help prevent the knot from working loose over time. I'm tempted to mention this detail in the bottle sling article if it is the common method for attaching the fiador; it is quite distinct from how the bottle sling is generally used. Further, in comparing the mecate tying diagram in Grant's braiding encyclopedia to file:Bosal_on_horse.jpg, I notice the book shows the lead end of the mecate threaded through the terminal bights, which effectively locks the whole thing together. I would guess that in a rig-it-yourself setup like the traditional hackamore there are probably a fair number of minor variations depending on where, and from whom, one learns the techniques. However I am definitely interested if the threaded-bights variant of of the hackamore knot is the common/preferred way -- it is very difficult to tell from most photos of the tightened assembly of knots.
- BTW, I also added some information from the Grant book to the bottle sling article regarding the (un)suitability of using the plain bottle sling knot as a sort of makeshift bit and reins as described by Ashley. I get the sense that Ashley may never have seen these knots as used together in an actual fiador. He surely would have illustrated the entire fiador as he was wont to do with almost any knotted contrivance he ever saw. --Dfred (talk) 18:30, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- I can't find much on the chicken-or-egg question about the fiador, so I guess I can't say unequivocally if the fiador is named after the knot or the knot named after the fiador, would be interesting if that could be sorted out. (My own axe to grind are people who don't read and try to call it a "theodore.") As far as securing the bottle sling knot, you are right that there are a lot of variations, see also File:Hackamore to bit.jpg. The "California style" was not quite as wild and wooly in their approach, they took a bit more time and sophistication, and thus would have been less concerned about loops and dangling things than the "Texas tradition" which was more prone to be fast and furious (breaking 6-8 colts a day, putting them to work on a cattle drive in a week or so and figuring they'd be trained by the time everyone got back (see Cowboy for explanation of these) If I were an old-time cowboy who'd rough break colts, (I'm not, but let's pretend) I'd favor getting the loops out of the way, because any kind of loop or dangling thing is a risk to get caught on something; the more wild and crazy an unbroke horse was, the more potential for disaster! In particular, one method of rough breaking was to buck the horse out in the corral, and once they'd mostly quit bucking, they'd open the gate and just let them run like he** out on the prairie until the horse was exhausted, the cowboy would then come back on a presumably "broke" (i.e. in spirit, especially) horse. But in the meantime, there would have been brush and other things that could potentially catch on equipment, so from a safety viewpoint, loops would be bad. If you want to see the real gear in authentic use, check out anything by Charles Marion Russell, the cowboy artist most noted for his attention to proper authenticity. (Russell is also real good for Indian stuff too -- including rope bridles!) For example, see images of http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Charles_Marion_Russell such as File:Broncj.jpg and File:Charles Marion Russell - A bad hoss (1904) original.jpg, elsewhere another one at off-wiki site Montanabw(talk) 20:27, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for the reply. I changed the wording in fiador knot to the more neutral "and shares its name with". I agree that in the field things are often heavily influenced by practical considerations.
- Funny you should mention Russell... I actually saw several of his works (both paintings and bronzes) at the Eiteljorg Museum of American Indians and Western Art when I was at a meeting in Indianapolis just last month. There were also a few examples of American Indian horse gear displayed on full-size horse mannequins on the second floor. --Dfred (talk) 17:20, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- Got your changes, thanks! Yes, Russell is fun, very accurate in details in his work, more so than Remington (Remington once notoriously painted a Native American warrior riding a women's saddle... oops!) Montanabw(talk) 07:57, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Stampede
I reverted the changes back into place... Hope you don't mind. There was a general agreement that the section was a little too big in the discussion I started at NPOV/N. Slatersteven was acting in concert with that. Cheers! Resolute 23:42, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
- No problem if they worked for you. Sometimes I worry about lead editors being bullied into going along with something where they aren't really OK, just tired. But if you're OK, then I;m OK! Montanabw(talk) 19:57, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Nope, that's pretty much why I took it there. I expect activists will make attempts to change the wording on the section/article, especially as next year's event approaches, and wanted a place to point them to when I explain that the text was neutral as is. Resolute 23:27, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- The activist issue permeates all the rodeo-related articles. Can I have a permanent link to that so I can use it next time the Cheyenne Frontier Days one gets hit? Montanabw(talk) 23:36, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'll try to remember to share the link when the thread gets archived. Resolute 23:55, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- You did a nice job of raising the issue in a way that didn't generate a lot of drama. I wish I could do that, I can't seem to open my mouth without pissing off someone! Montanabw(talk) 23:56, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'll try to remember to share the link when the thread gets archived. Resolute 23:55, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- The activist issue permeates all the rodeo-related articles. Can I have a permanent link to that so I can use it next time the Cheyenne Frontier Days one gets hit? Montanabw(talk) 23:36, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- Nope, that's pretty much why I took it there. I expect activists will make attempts to change the wording on the section/article, especially as next year's event approaches, and wanted a place to point them to when I explain that the text was neutral as is. Resolute 23:27, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
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Okay :3 and thank you for telling me, i'm trying to learn all this stuff :3 Glacialfox (talk) 14:37, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
RE: Wikipedia article "Ali Pasha Sherif"
Dear Montanabw: You have some incorrect information in this article which I have been trying to correct, and you keep deleting it. In the article you say that Abbas I Pasha's (1812-1854) eighteen-year old son who inherited his horses was Ibrahim Pasha of Egypt (1789- Nov. 10, 1848) - obviously that information is incorrect! How can someone who was born in 1789 be the eighteen-year old son of someone who was born in 1812? If you go and actually read the article on Ibrahim Pasha (1789-1848) you will quickly see that I am right on this issue. Ibrahim Pasha (1789-1848) was not Abbas I Pasha's son. The Ibrahim Pasha who inherited Abbas I Pasha's horses was Ibrahim Ilhami (al-Hami) Pasha (Jan. 3, 1836 - Sept. 9, 1860). This can easily be confirmed if you visit these 2 links:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~royalty/islamic/i743.html#I743
http://www.royalark.net/Egypt/egypt7.htm
Also, you say that if I have detailed information on some of the people mentioned in this article, that I should post it in the Wikipedia articles devoted to those people. I agree, but Ibrahim Ilhami (al-Hami) Pasha (1836-1860) and Ali Pasha Sherif's father, who died on Feb. 13, 1865, don't yet have Wikipedia articles devoted to them. Therefore, the only logical place to post this information, currently, is in your article on Ali Pasha Sherif.
Most of the information I have been adding to your article is fairly hard to track down, so if anyone is searching for this particular information and they find it in your article on Ali Pasha Sherif, I'm sure they will appreciate it. By adding this detailed information to your article, I am trying to make easy for people what would otherwise be a somewhat arduous research task for them. Believe me, I have spent many hours tracking down this information, and it isn't information which is easy to find and validate.
Most respectfully yours,
72.68.107.232 (talk) 19:48, 7 November 2011 (UTC)Phil Kromer72.68.107.232 (talk) 19:48, 7 November 2011 (UTC) gibraltar37@gmail.com November 7, 2011
- Neither of those sources is a reliable source as wikipedia would consider it, however. Especially the freepages.genealogy one. You need sources that meet WP:RS to add information to wikipedia. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:01, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
- I did note that there are multiple people titled Ibrahim Pasha and I adjusted that link accordingly. As far as birth and death dates on people not having WP articles, you could put that information on the talk page or into hidden text, but it is irrelevant to an article on other people except as to how it affected them. Montanabw(talk) 22:04, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
RE: Wikipedia Article on Ali Pasha Sherif
Dear Montanabw:
Hello!
I see in your Wikipedia article on Ali Pasha Sherif, that you recently made a link to the Ecole Militaire in Paris. This is an error. The Ecole Militaire is not the same institution as the Ecole Militaire Egyptienne. Ali Pasha Sherif attended the Ecole Militaire Egyptienne, not the Ecole Militaire.
The Ecole Militaire Egyptienne was a special school that Muhammad Ali Pasha (1769-1849) set up in Paris for the exclusive use of students that he personally approved and sent there. The school was in existence for only 5 years (1844-1849). After Muhammad Ali Pasha passed away in 1849, the school was quickly closed down by Abbas I Pasha who was the Governor of Egypt from 1848-1854.
There are other errors in this article which I have detected. The major remaining error is the confusion of Ali Pasha Sherif's father (who died on Feb. 13, 1865) with a man named Muhammad Sharif Pasha (Feb. 1826 - April 20, 1887). Muhammad Ali Pasha (1769-1849) and these other 2 men were all born at Kavala in northern Greece, which has led many people who are not careful in their research to assume that Ali Pasha Sherif's father and Muhammad Sharif Pasha (1826-1887) were the same person.
My research on this particular issue is still continuing, but following are the basic conclusions I have arrived at.
It was indeed Ali Pasha Sherif's father who was Governor of Damascus, Syria from November 1832 to some time in 1838. Since Muhammad Sharif Pasha wasn't born until 1826, he couldn't have been appointed Governor of Syria in 1832, since he would have only been 6 years old at the time of the appointment. Also, more than likely it was also Ali Pasha Sherif's father who was head of the Egyptian Financial Ministry in 1844, since Muhammad Sharif Pasha would only have been 18 years old at that time.
However, since Ali Pasha Sherif's father died in 1865, the Egyptian governmental positions that he is usually credited as holding in the 1870s and 1880s were actually held by Muhammad Sharif Pasha, who didn't die until 1887.
Another point well worth considering is the following.
It is known that Ali Pasha Sherif (1834-1897) had 2 brothers, namely Khalil Pasha Sherif (June 20, 1831 - January 12, 1879) and Osman. Khalil was a famous art collector and Ottoman diplomat. If you check the biographical and genealogical records available on Muhammad Sharif Pasha (1826-1887), you will find that he had a few sons, but that their first names were not Ali, Khalil and Osman. This is further proof that Ali Pasha Sherif's father and Muhammad Sharif Pasha were definitely not the same man.
Furthermore, the available records state the following.
"Muhammad Ali Pasha [1769-1849] brought El Sayed Muhammad Cherif [Ali Pasha Sherif's father], of Kawala [Kavala, a city in Macedonia, Greece] origin, to Egypt when he was 12 years old, and obtained admittance for him into the school at Khanka [El-Khanka, a city 12 miles northeast of Cairo], where all the sons of the Pashas and Princes were educated. He filled many posts in the Egyptian government during the reign of Muhammad Ali Pasha under the name El Sayed Mohamed Cherif Pacha El Kebir. He was made Wali (Governor) of all Arabia, including Lebanon and Syria."
According to the historical records, Muhammad Ali Pasha (1769-1849) was born in Kavala (Cavalla), Macedonia, Greece, and first journeyed to Egypt in 1799 (when he was about 30 years old) as an officer in the Ottoman expeditionary force that was defeated by the French at Abu Kir in July, 1799. It is quite possible that when Muhammad Ali Pasha left Kavala for Egypt in 1799, he took 12-year old El Sayed Muhammad Cherif with him. If that was indeed the case, then we can calculate that if El Sayed Muhammad Cherif was 12 years old in 1799, he was born around the year 1787. This is another proof that El Sayed Muhammad Cherif and Muhammad Sharif Pasha were not the same person, since Muhammad Sharif Pasha wasn't born until 1826 - approximately 39 years after the birth of Ali Pasha Sherif's father.
I plan to add some documentation to your article, in substantiation of the statements made above, as time permits. Plus, I am still conducting research in order to make sure that I have reached the right conclusions on these particular points. This is very much a work in progress.
Sincerely yours,
72.68.107.232 (talk) 12:30, 9 November 2011 (UTC)Phil Kromer72.68.107.232 (talk) 12:30, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
gibraltar37@gmail.com November 9, 2011
--- I'll fix the link. What we desperately need here are the actual source citations for the "historical records" you are putting in above. I'm not questioning what you are saying, only that we have to have information on the actual source documents (read WP:CITE, WP:V, and {[WP:RS]] to see what I'm talking about. Wikipedia really needs to have the actual source material cited, if we can do so) I'm also going to move this over to the talk page for the article so it can be available to anyone else working on it. Montanabw(talk) 15:53, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- I don't really have anything to contribute to the article, so I'll leave this here. I had a really hard time finding Ottoman sources for the HiWWI article. The main one I did find (Erickson, Edward J. (2001). Ordered to Die: A History of the Ottoman Army in the First World War. Contributions in Military Studies, Number 201. Westport, CT: Greenwood Press. ISBN 0-313-31516-7.), I mainly looked through for cavalry info, and don't recall seeing a mention of Sherif, but I could have totally missed it. I got this book through ILL, so don't have it available to check. This, plus a couple of other very minor mentions, was all I came across of Ottoman horse use around the time of the war, and I don't remember coming across anything to do with Arabian breeding. If I had, I probably would have dropped something on your talk page, and since I don't seem to have done that, I don't think I found anything. I don't think I have any other source material that deals with this area/time, but when I get home tonight I'll take a look through a couple of cavalry/horsemanship books that may have something. I agree that more than "my research shows" and "historical records show" is needed for referencing, although the research above looks sound on the surface. Sorry I can't be of more help, Dana boomer (talk) 17:38, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks Dana. This has been something driving me nuts about middle east history of the 1800s in general, seems to be mostly Traveler's accounts, people such as the Blunts, who were not really scholars. Montanabw(talk) 17:46, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
Friendly hand
Hi Montanabw, You proposed me a friendly hand on Mike Cline's talk page, so I would be very glad to accept your offer! I also don't have any particular link with Buddhism, but I found very disturbing the way a few contributors are systematically moving and removing content from the English WP pages.
A specific issue is the non-respect of the naming conventions, which gives a primary position to the conventional English spelling for foreign-language names (in that particular case Tibetan). It is very positive when these editors are adding Chinese and/or Tibetan alternative spellings, the problem is that by doing so they also systematically delete or move to a less prominent position the traditional English spelling. Beside the lack of respect for English language and for the work of previous editors, they also lower the quality of WP pages and make a search for these names more difficult.
I've spent a bit of time over the past few days monitoring the activities of Quigley and 虞海, but I don't have the required IT skills to revert all the controversial edits and won't have the time in future to permanently monitor it. A "friendly" hand will therefore be more than appreciated.--Pseudois (talk) 06:48, 12 November 2011 (UTC)--Pseudois (talk) 06:52, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
- If you want me to watchlist specific articles, be glad to do so. The issue of WP:ENGLISH is a problem everywhere and determining what is the culturally respectful approach is also a challenge sometimes. But I have pretty strong views about the Chinese government's Tibetan policy, so I'll try to keep an eye on the most critical things you might point me to. That said, if others are articulating my own concerns effectively, I'll keep my powder dry. Montanabw(talk) 03:00, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
I just created this. Care to try to add to it? I can't find much on it. PumpkinSky talk 13:28, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
- Shore is purdy! The Annenberg connection is fascinating. I have to admit that I'm kind of trying to sandbox a couple articles of my own at the moment, so not apt to be a lot of help here, but should I trip over something along the way, I'll let you know (BTW, I found but lost and could not find again a link to a really cool Butterfly shaped brooch said to be made of Montana or Yogo sapphires that's also in the Smithsonian's Natural History Museum... might want to keep an eye out). Montanabw(talk) 21:09, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
- You mean this one? I'll add it. PumpkinSky talk 21:36, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, and another link to it here (If the link doesn't work, go to the gems page and click on "Sapphire Butterfly Brooch" (why I lost that URL and couldn't find it, well, the moral of the story is -- scroll down the page, silly!) May be worth an article too, or just add to Rock Creek or Sapphire Mountains. Another thought is if the SI photos count as images owned by the US Government, thus public domain (?) Montanabw(talk) 22:02, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
- SI images are PD but they seem to sometimes use photos from elsewhere, so you have to be careful. Will work the butterfly when the movie is over. PumpkinSky talk 22:06, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, and another link to it here (If the link doesn't work, go to the gems page and click on "Sapphire Butterfly Brooch" (why I lost that URL and couldn't find it, well, the moral of the story is -- scroll down the page, silly!) May be worth an article too, or just add to Rock Creek or Sapphire Mountains. Another thought is if the SI photos count as images owned by the US Government, thus public domain (?) Montanabw(talk) 22:02, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
- You mean this one? I'll add it. PumpkinSky talk 21:36, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
- The Montana Butterfly Brooch photo is not free, not the best one at least. I've emailed for a release and will look for a free one. PumpkinSky talk 02:19, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Note
Yeah [1][2]. I removed their article talk rant but I hate to alter user talk if I can help it, so I let that slide for a few hours. Came back just now with the intention of collapsing it with a header including "something about the best way to cook a steak". Your approach was likely the better one, thanks for addressing it before I had to. Regards. Franamax (talk) 01:35, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Missoula page
For God's sake, would you please stop deleting 2/3 of the Missoula, Montana page. You've done it three times now. Just leave a note and someone competent can remove the knitpicky items you seem to be obsessed with. Next time I'll just report it as vandalism.Dsetay (talk) 04:09, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
- Dsetay, I'll answer in detail on your talk page, but this appears to be a technical hiccup, as all I am trying to do is to remove the fake nickname "Zoo Town" from the infobox. Montanabw(talk) 22:16, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
- One thing you can do is to periodially check your watchlist, and always at the end of your session. If your edits have made large deletions, they should show up with a bold red negative "byte count". The only other way to check that I can see is to click the article history after each edit, and that's a little unreasonable for someone using a dialup connection to edit. Franamax (talk) 02:04, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Not a bad notion. Good advice from a fellow dialup sufferer. (I'm not always on a dialup, only from home. Oh. That means I am SOOOO busted for editing WP at work too! LOL!) Montanabw(talk) 21:07, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- One thing you can do is to periodially check your watchlist, and always at the end of your session. If your edits have made large deletions, they should show up with a bold red negative "byte count". The only other way to check that I can see is to click the article history after each edit, and that's a little unreasonable for someone using a dialup connection to edit. Franamax (talk) 02:04, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Stables, livery yards, equestrian centres etc
OK, I have maybe come up with a way forward, and in the spirit of WP:BOLD have created it. The page is at equestrian facility and I would intend it to replace stable, livery yard and other similar small articles. These article are all stubby and small at the moment (and unlikely to ever become long enough or good enough on their own), and cross over with each other (as many stables also have a rising school, equestrian centre etc.), so the idea is to cover them all in one place, like we do with horse care.
Now i haven't finished - there are still other sections to add, but i concentrated on the stabling section first, where i've tried as hard as possible to keep it international, with explanation of the relevant terms where I can.
However, whilst I'm working, I know that you'll have valuable input so I would be grateful if you could have a look. Once it is in a reasonable state, I would then suggest redirecting the other articles to this single page (which is why livery yard, stable etc. are not in-line linked).
Regards, OwainDavies (about)(talk) edited at 19:36, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
- Ewwww yuck. Bureaucrat speak. May be a solution, wonder if there is one more elegant. Oh, and also notice we also have horse management. I'd kind of prefer to merge it all into barn or something. I'll take a peek and if I have no better ideas, yours probably works, but my own barn and/or stable is hardly an "equestrian facility." LOL! Montanabw(talk) 22:21, 14 November 2011 (UTC) Follow up that said, I'm impressed with your work. Not sure it means we can merge all the other articles, but I DO like the progress being made. Montanabw(talk) 22:52, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
- I like the idea of a merge of a bunch of small articles into something larger and nicer, although I agree that "equestrian facility" is maybe not the most elegant name for it. Some possible merges:
- Stable - Barely start class, few references, bare coverage of salient points
- Livery yard - About the same
- Riding academy - Unreferenced two-line stub
- Stable Master - Unreferenced stub
- Paddock - Two line stub
- Should also link to: Stable vices, Mounting block. Dana boomer (talk) 02:17, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- I like the idea of a merge of a bunch of small articles into something larger and nicer, although I agree that "equestrian facility" is maybe not the most elegant name for it. Some possible merges:
- Thanks for that, guys. Montana, your edits are excellent, and Dana, those are good suggestions. So far, I think I have included all teh content (and more) that is relevant from Livery yard and Stable, so i think they could be redirected (of course if the secton ever gets to large, they can be split out again as daughter articles) and i'm sure the others can be worked in. For the naming of the main article, I kind of agree, so any suggestions welcome - would yard be any good from your point of view? I think the barn article is already pretty good, and far too wide a subject to focus on horses only. OwainDavies (about)(talk) edited at 05:59, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Agree that barn is much wider than just horses, and doesn't really cover things like Riding academy. Before we do any redirecting, though, merge tags should probably be put on the relevant articles (and a summary of this conversation on their talk pages, possibly with a link here) and let to sit for at least a week. This way people who don't watchlist Montana's page will have a chance to know what we're contemplating and give their thoughts. It is quite possible that no one will notice/care, but we should at least give them that chance. Dana boomer (talk) 12:33, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Probably not stable vices, as that is more a behavior/medical issue than management. But see also horse management. We also have pen (enclosure) and stuff like paddock, where the US and UK terms have widely varying meanings. "Yard" would not work at all because in US English, that's what your kids play in. We might be stuck with equestrian facility, much as I loathe the title, I can't think of one better. Montanabw(talk) 21:10, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- I wasn't suggesting merging the vices article, just making sure there are cross-links between the two. Same for mounting block. Horse management redirects to horse care at the moment, and I don't think all of this information is really a "management" or a "care" topic so much as it is a facility or a location topic. Also agree that yard is not a good one - a "yard" is definitely a lawn (though lawn brings to mind more manicuring and less random things scattered around) in my book. Dana boomer (talk) 21:14, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- LOL! I'm beginning to wonder if there is anything worse than horse lingo for the huge differences between US and UK English. Montanabw(talk) 21:58, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Talkback (Ks0stm)
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Message added 22:34, 15 November 2011 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.
Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 22:34, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Unsourced material
Welcome to Wikipedia. Everyone is welcome to contribute to the encyclopedia, but when you add or change content, as you did to the article Menorquín horse, please cite a reliable source for your addition. This helps maintain our policy of verifiability. See Wikipedia:Citing sources for how to cite sources, and the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 23:11, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- That's a threat, JLAN. I suggest you remove this. Montanabw(talk) 23:19, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
- Whether or not its a threat, it's generally considered rude to put that sort of templated message on a long term editor's talk page. Do you really think that doing that will help with a collaborative editing enviroment? I haven't looked at the edits involved, and perhaps the information needs to stay out if it's unsourced, but a "Welcome to Wikipedia" templated message is just going to get someone's back up and not help with resolving the dispute. Technically, it may be perfectly correct, but it's certainly not helpful. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:28, 15 November 2011 (UTC)