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:The nominator appears to hold strong personal opinions on this topic. The list is said to be "attacking Global warming." It is said to be "a popular denialist technique." The article is is said to be "clearly based on a common denialist campaign tactic." Perhaps the nominator should review [[WP:Assume Good Faith]]. --[[User:Tillman|Pete Tillman]] ([[User talk:Tillman|talk]]) 03:29, 12 October 2011 (UTC) |
:The nominator appears to hold strong personal opinions on this topic. The list is said to be "attacking Global warming." It is said to be "a popular denialist technique." The article is is said to be "clearly based on a common denialist campaign tactic." Perhaps the nominator should review [[WP:Assume Good Faith]]. --[[User:Tillman|Pete Tillman]] ([[User talk:Tillman|talk]]) 03:29, 12 October 2011 (UTC) |
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*'''Delete''' A [[WP:BATTLE|battleground]] article pure-and-simple that tries to pigeonhole people into an "opposition" category that is only defined by what it is not. Would it be appropriate to have an article on [[List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of gravity]] or [List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of evolution]] or [[[List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of electromagnetism]] or [List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of meteorology]]? That there is a media-hyped controversy over the broader topic of global warming is fact that is addressed well elsewhere. That there exist ostensible "scientists" who have various opinions on the matter is not surprising. That Wikipedia is trying to determine who does and does not fit such a characteristic is well-beyond the capabilities of the amateur hour that passes for editorial guidance here. [[Special:Contributions/69.86.225.27|69.86.225.27]] ([[User talk:69.86.225.27|talk]]) 03:39, 12 October 2011 (UTC) |
Revision as of 03:39, 12 October 2011
List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming
- Articles for deletion/List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming
- Articles for deletion/List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming (2nd nomination)
- Articles for deletion/List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming (3rd nomination)
- Articles for deletion/List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming (4th nomination)
- Articles for deletion/List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming (5th nomination)
- Articles for deletion/List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming (6th nomination)
DRVs for this article:
- List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
This list is, by its very construction, in violation of several Wikipedia policies.
It's a WP:QUOTEFARM, every single one of which is a WP:POVPUSH, attacking Global warming. Little to no attempt to balance these WP:FRINGE views with mainstream is done. Indeed, this article is promoted by global warming denialists [1].
These problems are not fixable by editing; they're necessary outcomes of the way the list is created, which actually requires a quote for inclusion.
However, this leads to worse problems: This list is Original research (these names are not taken from any sort of reliable source, but from scanning primary sources for things that people think are anti-global warming), and a potential WP:BLP minefield, as it attempts to classify possibly nuanced views based on single quotes.
Further, it often synthesises an argument from multiple sources. Take Garth Paltridge, where the conclusion of the argument is from a different paper than the first part. This is not a single example, and, is, again, another source of potential WP:BLP violations - and very definitely WP:SYNTH ones.
But the worst issue is that we've seen these sorts of lists before. This isn't an encyclopedic article; this is a popular denialist technique: The list of experts that oppose a position. We do not copy the Discovery Institute's A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism, but instead discuss it, using reliable sources. We certainly don't attempt to make our own list, to assist them in their campaign. We don't create our own list of scientists who oppose the mainstream assessment that second-hand smoke causes cancer, full of pro-tobacco arguments, nor do we provide articles to let cranks "have their say" on why the earth is flat.
And yet, we have this article, clearly based on a common denialist campaign tactic, and it's survived four AfDs, with little-to-no change. Any encyclopedic treatment of this subject would need to be a fundamentally different sort of article, for which the article, as it stands, would offer no usable content.
Let's put an end to this. 86.** IP (talk) 17:56, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- Keep The climate change contrarians are notable both severally and as individuals. For example, see this recent story: War of words over global warming as Nobel laureate resigns in protest. I'm not sure of all the details of how our coverage ended up in this current form but you may be sure that it was argued at length, as the previous AFDs show. This article is part of a set, including Scientific opinion on climate change, Media coverage of climate change and Public opinion on climate change which are shown together with this list in the Opinion and climate change template. It would not be balanced to knock out just one part of this set. Warden (talk) 19:06, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- These positions do not have equal weight, however: According to http://www.stanford.edu/group/CCB/articles/Anderegg_ClimateConsensus_Report2009.pdf "Based on our external assessment and relative weighing of expert opinion, we conclude that for five questions, the scientific community has reached a de facto consensus (more than 95% agreement) aligned with the view of the IPCC." - if less than 5% of the scientific community hold the poosition, then it is Perfectly reasonable not to spend 25% of our coverage on them, and not at all unbalanced. Your keep argument is therefore in violation of WP:FRINGE. 86.** IP (talk) 19:25, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- I was reading a book about the history of mathematical proof recently. There's an amusing anecdote in this about Italian mathematics in which, for a period, theorems were decided by vote rather than by proof. That is laughable because such matters are not decided by a head-count. In any case, it doesn't matter who's right or wrong - time will tell. The point is that the dissenting opinions are notable and so we should not suppress them. If we record the views of the Flat Earth Society then we can do the same for other contrarians. Warden (talk) 20:14, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- These positions do not have equal weight, however: According to http://www.stanford.edu/group/CCB/articles/Anderegg_ClimateConsensus_Report2009.pdf "Based on our external assessment and relative weighing of expert opinion, we conclude that for five questions, the scientific community has reached a de facto consensus (more than 95% agreement) aligned with the view of the IPCC." - if less than 5% of the scientific community hold the poosition, then it is Perfectly reasonable not to spend 25% of our coverage on them, and not at all unbalanced. Your keep argument is therefore in violation of WP:FRINGE. 86.** IP (talk) 19:25, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- Delete. Giving this its own article, particularly with the extensive quoting, is giving undue weight to a fringe theory. As well, the topic is so broad that such a list will inevitably be (and is) synthesis, both because of the grouping of these individuals together under one opinion and because of the interpretations of their primary-source writings. Warden's argument that this article is part of a set actually highlights why this doesn't need to be a separate article: dissent should be covered in the other articles, where it can be properly contextualized. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 19:37, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- Keep, but fix any problems Disclaimer: my own POV I have to struggle with is ultraclimatehawk. That said, the fringe views in the article are partially offset by the image in the lead (showing degree of consensus for mainstream view) and the many other (good) articles that cross-ref this one. So what if some % of entries on this page violate WP:OR or WP:FRINGE or WP:(other), IMO, while that may all be true, the article itself serves as an important pressure relief valve for skeptics/denialists. If this article goes away, such editors will more aggressively push to include this type of info in the other climate articles. Maybe its not ideal, and maybe the presentation at present stinks, but the existence of the page serves an important pressure relief purpose IMO. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:41, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- As set out above, These problems are unfixable, because they come out of the very design of this list'. You can't fix OR and synthesis, Quotefarming, and the like, when the article's goal is to provide a set of denialist quotes, organised through original research, in order to... well, WP:POVPUSH the views of the denialists. There is literally no encyclopedic purpose served by this list, you cannot "fix" thisx except by deleting it. 86.** IP (talk) 20:54, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- Pushing their views is not the reason I want the list to remain, and you would know that if you read what I wrote and assumed I was telling the truth. You haven't spent time making other climate articles better, so I'm curious why you care about so much about deleting this particular one? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 23:42, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- I didn't say that was why you wanted to, I was explaining why it would be impossible to do what you ask. I think I have made it entirely clear why I think it should be deleted; it's horrible. 86.** IP (talk) 23:47, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- Pushing their views is not the reason I want the list to remain, and you would know that if you read what I wrote and assumed I was telling the truth. You haven't spent time making other climate articles better, so I'm curious why you care about so much about deleting this particular one? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 23:42, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:06, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Environment-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:06, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:06, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- Comment—I don't see an intrinsic reason to oppose such a list; challenges to even the most widely-accepted consensus is a vital element of science. But the topic itself is thoroughly covered by the Global warming controversy article, and this list just seems to be repeating the same material. The content should be trimmed to a summary intro and a list of the cited scientists. The article name itself is awkward and should be changed. Regards, RJH (talk) 21:47, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- Delete This article is a WP:COATRACK. Any minor opposition can be described in the relevant articles. Noformation Talk 22:01, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- Delete. I think Roscelese sums the problems up well - the problems with undue weight and synthesis are essentially insoluable with a list like this. Regarding NewsAndEventsGuy's comments on it having "an important pressure relief purpose", this is hardly a valid reason to retain it. Articles should be created for the benefit of readers, not to act as a sop to contributors unwilling to edit according to the agreed consensus. I know that this is a controversial issue, and I'm well aware that many people hold strong views, but that shouldn't sway our judgement when making decisions. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:06, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- Delete as inherently having OR and WEIGHT issues to it being formatted as a list like this; specifically grouping anyone who has ever expressed any disagreement with any facet of the current consensus on climate change together as a group for listing is a recipe for SYNTH that can't be solve without the deletion of the article. Yobol (talk) 22:10, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- Keep the mere existence of such an article is not an endorsement of these scientists' position, any more than list of communist parties is an endorsement of communism. The global warming denial movement is notable regardless of its scientific merit, and so are the people behind it. 169.231.54.151 (talk) 23:02, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- Keep - I'd argue that being "denialist" is hardly WP:FRINGE (and is likely to become even less so as time passes)...but if that's too POV, then simply because this is, in my opinion, an encyclopediatic list, provided WP:OR is stripped out. - The Bushranger One ping only 00:46, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- Delete - The list itself is WP:OR and there's no way for it not to be. No one but a Wikipedia editor has ever put together a list like this. Additionally, it's very doubtful that many of these names belong on the list. I see no policy-based arguments in favor of keeping this. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 02:28, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- Not so.... see [this list at Skeptical Science] NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 03:51, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- That's just an index page to explanations of why anti-fglobal warming arguments are wrong. If you're going to sa that other lists of global warming deniers have been made, please make sure the pages linked to actually contain lists of anti-global warming people. 86.** IP (talk) 04:52, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- Please slow down and take a real look this time. For example, see the link "Oceans are cooling" under the subheading "it's cooling", which brings up [this]. There, you will see a statement attributed to skeptic/denier William DiPuccio. Click on one of the other common denier/skeptic arguments, and the page will start with a different statement attributed to another. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 05:19, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- So, you're saying that this article should contain a multi-paragraph statement exapalining whta's wrong with every single quote? If not, not comparable. 86.180.228.28 (talk) 19:54, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- Please slow down and take a real look this time. For example, see the link "Oceans are cooling" under the subheading "it's cooling", which brings up [this]. There, you will see a statement attributed to skeptic/denier William DiPuccio. Click on one of the other common denier/skeptic arguments, and the page will start with a different statement attributed to another. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 05:19, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- That's just an index page to explanations of why anti-fglobal warming arguments are wrong. If you're going to sa that other lists of global warming deniers have been made, please make sure the pages linked to actually contain lists of anti-global warming people. 86.** IP (talk) 04:52, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- Not so.... see [this list at Skeptical Science] NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 03:51, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- Delete - mainly because it's OR. Secondly because of UNDUE. Shot info (talk) 07:14, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- Keep - by all means have another debate about how to improve the article or present the information in a better way, but I think it serves a useful purpose to the encyclopedia reader in providing context to the wilder claims of each side about the strength of their support in the scientific community, and I do not currently think it should be deleted. --Merlinme (talk) 08:37, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- Delete After any OR and pointless quotes are removed there won't be much of an article left to keep. Most of the scientists don't even seem to be climatologists which is very odd. IRWolfie- (talk) 08:47, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- Edit: The article also contains scientists who aren't even qualified to speak about climate change such as Astronomers and Solid state physicists etc. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:57, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- Comment What are you saying, that physicists aren't scientists? Look at the title of the article Tigerboy1966 (talk) 18:05, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- Keep Echoing other statements, WP:FRINGE is often misused to omit opposing information, which itself would be in violation of WP:NPOV. Lists in no, way, shape, or form, are endorsements of the viewpoints. Denial of the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming is a notable and growing topic. Personally disagreeing with the views expressed by the scientists in question does not make the fact that the views exist any less notable. And WP:CONS is the ruling principle of what happens to articles on WP, not the near-religious and overzealous application of a half-dozen policies (that consensus can overide at any time) in effort to get rid of something you personally don't agree with. The consensus the last three times has been the same.—Matt (talk) 09:40, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- Incorrect - the last AfD closed as no consensus. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:07, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- Exactly. Consensus can change and indeed it already did change in the last AfD.Griswaldo (talk) 18:11, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- Incorrect - the last AfD closed as no consensus. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:07, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- Keep - Where there is OR remove & discuss it, where there is POV remove & discuss it, but we don't delete whole articles that clearly have an encyclopedic interest. POV is not a deletion criteria nor is coatracking, we solve the problem, if there is nothing left then we look to delete it as no content. This hasn't been done yet. If there are examples of OR these should be taken up on the talk page, but having looked through the article all of the comments look well sourced and in context. Being a potential BLP minefield doesn't mean that it IS a BLP issue, since when do we delete articles because the have the potential to have issues. If the initiating editor can see BLP issues I suggest they immediately remove them and bring it up on the talk page. I would suggest that this nomination is based on a POV with such rhetoric as "...attacking global warming...". It is not wikipedia's job to defend a position or act on such POV, but it is Wikipedia's to reflect that there is a clear interest in finding out who these scientists are that are going against the consensual position. Khukri 13:47, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- Delete This article is ORIGINAL RESEARCH through and through. It establishes a novel inclusion criteria then forces Wikipedians to interpret primary sources to figure out if they meet this inclusion criteria. It is also a QUOTE FARM. If the article is kept quotes need to be moved to the citations and not be displayed on the page like this. The fact that people supporting this entry's existence are also reverting good faith efforts to remove the quote farm is a major problem.Griswaldo (talk) 18:09, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- Keep but remove the introductory material, which is a little too close to making a judgemnt. The quotes in this case are a convenient way of showingthe views--we don 't usually do it, but in my opinion, it's justified. Reducing their length would introduce problems of selective quotation. DGG ( talk ) 19:03, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- Keep nominator confuses "minority" with "fringe". Although I don't think it's a very good article, I can't see much point deleting it.Tigerboy1966 (talk) 20:00, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- Keep and fix the problems noted, per Khukri and others. As a comment, the quote format is novel but seems effective, though some quotes could use pruning. Cheers, Pete Tillman (talk) 04:54, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- In what way is the excessive quoting effective? and effective at what? IRWolfie- (talk) 08:38, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- I think we can work on developing a consensus re the quotes after the AfD closes. Thanks, Pete Tillman (talk) 18:28, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- That doesn't answer the question. You're making an argument based on the fact that they are "effective." Unless you explain why/how your argument will appear to be without substance. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 18:33, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- I think we can work on developing a consensus re the quotes after the AfD closes. Thanks, Pete Tillman (talk) 18:28, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- In what way is the excessive quoting effective? and effective at what? IRWolfie- (talk) 08:38, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- I made a comment in passing, as I hadn't really looked at this article in detail, prior to this AfD discussion. An AfD isn't really the appropriate place to discuss format issues, imo. I agree that the article needs work. Assuming it is retained, I'd be happy to work on the quote issue. Best, Pete Tillman (talk) 19:22, 11 October 2011 (UTC). Comment revised 20:06, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- You're arguing in an AfD and you haven't looked at the article in years, "if ever?" Can you please strike your argument in that case.Griswaldo (talk) 19:46, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- See clarification above. I looked at the article, talk page & this page carefully for this AfD discussion. Sorry for the confusion, Pete Tillman (talk) 20:04, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- You're arguing in an AfD and you haven't looked at the article in years, "if ever?" Can you please strike your argument in that case.Griswaldo (talk) 19:46, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- I made a comment in passing, as I hadn't really looked at this article in detail, prior to this AfD discussion. An AfD isn't really the appropriate place to discuss format issues, imo. I agree that the article needs work. Assuming it is retained, I'd be happy to work on the quote issue. Best, Pete Tillman (talk) 19:22, 11 October 2011 (UTC). Comment revised 20:06, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- Delete User:Colonel Warden's argument that this article is part of a "set" is self-refuting. There are, as he points out, several articles in which the issue is thrashed out. This article is structured in such a way that this completely trashes WP:NPOV. It's a list of names with potted summaries of arguments in one side of a dispute, and that a marginal, indeed largely fringe, position. It's pure propaganda for a non-mainstream position. The inclusion of quotations turns it from a genuine list into an advocacy aticle. Even as a mere list it has no utility, since "opposing the maistream view" is not a single position. Someone who believes the temperature will rise to the extent that we'll all be ash in five years time also "opposes the mainstream" view. There are many inconsistent and contradictory divergences of opinion, some of which are pure fringe and some of which are legitimate matters for debate. Including all these in a single list obfuscates matters and creates the impression that there is some sort of consistent, well-thought-through opposition opinion, rather than a jumble of individual disagreements about a variety of aspects of a complex topic. Paul B (talk) 15:33, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
About fixing problems Here is one way some of the objections might be addressed; I'm not suggesting we debate whether this is a good way or bad way here because this page should really just be about the existence of the page in any form. If the page survives AFD, interested editors can bash or cheer this approach on the articles talk page. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:29, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- Delete This statement in the lead explains exactly why the article is WP:OR and WP:SYNTH and has no place at Wikipedia: "This article is an attempt to list notable scientists who have made statements in disagreement..." (and removing that statement would not fix the problem which is accurately described by the statement). Instead of editors combing through everything a scientist has said, articles should be based on reliable secondary sources. Johnuniq (talk) 00:07, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
- Comment: the nominator and other editors argue that this list is WP:OR -- but, if so, so is every other list in the encyclopedia. Making a list involves editorial choices, generally by many editors. See, for example, the Revision history of the List of science fiction authors -- or virtually any other list in the encyclopedia.
- The nominator appears to hold strong personal opinions on this topic. The list is said to be "attacking Global warming." It is said to be "a popular denialist technique." The article is is said to be "clearly based on a common denialist campaign tactic." Perhaps the nominator should review WP:Assume Good Faith. --Pete Tillman (talk) 03:29, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
- Delete A battleground article pure-and-simple that tries to pigeonhole people into an "opposition" category that is only defined by what it is not. Would it be appropriate to have an article on List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of gravity or [List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of evolution]] or [[[List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of electromagnetism]] or [List of scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of meteorology]]? That there is a media-hyped controversy over the broader topic of global warming is fact that is addressed well elsewhere. That there exist ostensible "scientists" who have various opinions on the matter is not surprising. That Wikipedia is trying to determine who does and does not fit such a characteristic is well-beyond the capabilities of the amateur hour that passes for editorial guidance here. 69.86.225.27 (talk) 03:39, 12 October 2011 (UTC)