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:'''Rebuttal''' evidence outside of [[Prelude to war]] as well as evidence regarding reliability ''for the context within the limited constraints expressly stated'' (ie US views of 1942-1945) has been ignored. University Press of Kentucky, University of North Carolina Press, Columbia University Press, and Psychology Press all show the [[Prelude to War]] was possible reliable for the context I want to use it in but any meaningful discuss of those source was short circuited the continual archiving in what IMHO comes of as [[WP:GAME]]. The Sept 18, 1931 date as a possible start for WWII had been noted in other even more reliable sources and yet this NPOV fact is ''not'' in the current version. |
:'''Rebuttal''' evidence outside of [[Prelude to war]] as well as evidence regarding reliability ''for the context within the limited constraints expressly stated'' (ie US views of 1942-1945) has been ignored. University Press of Kentucky, University of North Carolina Press, Columbia University Press, and Psychology Press all show the [[Prelude to War]] was possible reliable for the context I want to use it in but any meaningful discuss of those source was short circuited the continual archiving in what IMHO comes of as [[WP:GAME]]. The Sept 18, 1931 date as a possible start for WWII had been noted in other even more reliable sources and yet this NPOV fact is ''not'' in the current version. |
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:"While some historians argue that the war started on 18 September 1931 when Japan occupied Manchuria..." Cheng, Chu-chueh (2010) ''The Margin Without Centre: Kazuo Ishiguro'' Peter Lang who is referencing Ghuhl, Wernar (2007) ''Imperial Japan's World |
:"While some historians argue that the war started on 18 September 1931 when Japan occupied Manchuria..." Cheng, Chu-chueh (2010) ''The Margin Without Centre: Kazuo Ishiguro'' Peter Lang who is referencing Ghuhl, Wernar (2007) ''Imperial Japan's World War Two'' Transaction Publishers pg 7. Last time, I checked ''Peter Lang'' and ''Transaction Publishers'' were not considered fringe publishers. How much we give to that position is a WP:WEIGHT issue ''not'' WP:FRINGE one.--[[User:BruceGrubb|BruceGrubb]] ([[User talk:BruceGrubb|talk]]) 09:38, 30 May 2012 (UTC) |
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== A recent software change causes untruths in old entries in editing histories. == |
== A recent software change causes untruths in old entries in editing histories. == |
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Administrative discussions
ANI thread concerning Yasuke
(Initiated 45 days ago on 2 July 2024) Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1162 § Talk: Yasuke has on-going issues has continued to grow, including significant portions of content discussion (especially since Talk:Yasuke was ec-protected) and accusations of BLP violations, among other problems. Could probably be handled one sub-discussion at a time. --JBL (talk) 17:50, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
Place new administrative discussions above this line using a level 3 heading
Requests for comment
RFA2024, Phase II discussions
Hi! Closers are requested for the following three discussion:
- (Initiated 106 days ago on 2 May 2024) Administrator recall
- (Initiated 104 days ago on 5 May 2024) Designated RfA monitors
- (Initiated 103 days ago on 5 May 2024) Reminder of civility norms at RfA
Many thanks in advance! theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 04:27, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
Doing... reminder of civility norms. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:24, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
Partly done reminder of civility norms. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:40, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
If re-requesting closure at WP:AN isn't necessary, then how about different various closers for cerain section(s)? I don't mind one or two closers for one part or another or more. --George Ho (talk) 17:39, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
- During Phase I of RFA2024, we had ended up having multiple closers for different RFCs, even the non-obvious ones. I think different people closing subparts of this should be acceptable Soni (talk) 09:22, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
- Bumping this as an important discussion very much in need of and very much overdue for a formal closure. Tazerdadog (talk) 18:40, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
Doing... designated RfA monitors (at least in part). voorts (talk/contributions) 16:40, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Partly done designated RfA monitors. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:31, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- For recall, @Sirdog: had attempted a close of one section, and then self-reverted. Just in case a future closer finds this helpful. Soni (talk) 07:17, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the ping. For what it's worth, I think that close was an accurate assessment of that single section's consensus, so hopefully I make someone's day easier down the line. Happy to answer questions from any editor about it.
—Sirdog (talk) 07:38, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I agree. I also think closing some sections at a time is pretty acceptable, especially given we have only been waiting 2+ months for them. I also have strong opinions on 'involved experienced editors' narrowing down a closer's scope just because they speak strongly enough on how they think it should be closed. But I am Capital-I involved too, so shall wait until someone takes these up. Soni (talk) 08:53, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I tend to agree. Not many people agreed with the concerns expressed on article talk about closing section by section. If a closer can't find consensus because the discussion is FUBAR, they can make that determination. voorts (talk/contributions) 12:50, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I agree. I also think closing some sections at a time is pretty acceptable, especially given we have only been waiting 2+ months for them. I also have strong opinions on 'involved experienced editors' narrowing down a closer's scope just because they speak strongly enough on how they think it should be closed. But I am Capital-I involved too, so shall wait until someone takes these up. Soni (talk) 08:53, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the ping. For what it's worth, I think that close was an accurate assessment of that single section's consensus, so hopefully I make someone's day easier down the line. Happy to answer questions from any editor about it.
(Initiated 75 days ago on 3 June 2024) Initial close has been overturned at review. A new close is required. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:36, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 56 days ago on 22 June 2024) nableezy - 17:53, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 55 days ago on 22 June 2024) - I thank the Wikipedia community for being so willing to discuss this topic very extensively. Because 30 days have passed and requested moves in this topic area are already being opened (For reference, a diff of most recent edit to the conversation in question), I would encourage an uninvolved editor to determine if this discussion is ready for closure. AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 22:34, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- (Also, apologies if I have done something incorrectly. This is my first time filing such a request.) AndrewPeterT (talk) (contribs) 22:34, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- There is ongoing discussion there as to whether a closer for that discussion is necessary or desirable. I would suggest to wait and see how that plays out.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:58, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
- This is dragging on ad nauseam. I suggest an admin closes this, possibly with the conclusion that there is no consensus to change. PatGallacher (talk) 17:50, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- There is ongoing discussion there as to whether a closer for that discussion is necessary or desirable. I would suggest to wait and see how that plays out.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:58, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 47 days ago on 30 June 2024) - Note: Part of the article and talk page are considered to be a contentious topic, including this RfC. --Super Goku V (talk) 10:28, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 45 days ago on 2 July 2024) - The original topic (Lockley's book, "African Samurai: The True Story of Yasuke, a Legendary Black Warrior in Feudal Japan") has not been the focus of discussion since the first few days of the RFC when it seemed to reach a concensus. The book in question is no longer cited by the Yasuke page and has been replaced by several other sources of higher quality. Since then the subject of the RSN has shifted to an extension of Talk:Yasuke and has seen many SPA one post accounts hijack the discussion on the source to commit BLP violations towards Thomas Lockley almost exclusively citing Twitter. Given that the general discussion that was occuring has shifted back to [Talk:Yasuke] as well as the continued uptick in SPA's committing NOTHERE and BLP violations on the RSN, as well as the source in question is no longer being used - I think closure is reasonable. Relm (talk) 20:17, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 44 days ago on 4 July 2024) Discussion is ready to be closed. Nemov (talk) 01:09, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 42 days ago on 5 July 2024) This is a contentious issue, so I would like to ask for an uninvolved editor to properly close. Please have consideration to each argument and provide an explanation how each argument and source was considered. People have strong opinions on this issue so please take consideration if their statements and claims are accompanied by quotes from sources and whether WP guidelines are followed. We need to resolve this question based on sources and not opinions, since it was discussed multiple times over the years. Trimpops2 (talk) 23:46, 3 August 2024 (UTC)
The present text in the article is ambiguous. The present sentence within the Military Frontier, in the Austrian Empire (present-day Croatia)
can be interpreted in two ways, as can be seen from the discussion. One group of editors interpret this as "although today in Croatia, Tesla's birthplace was not related to Kingdom of Croatia at the time of his birth in the 19th century" and other group of editors are claiming that "at that time the area was a part of "Kingdom of Croatia". I hope that end consensus will resolve that ambiguity. Whatever the consensus will be, let's not have ambiguous text. The article should provide a clear answer to that question. Trimpops2 (talk) 16:16, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
Talk:La France Insoumise#RfC: How should the political position of La France Insoumise be described?
(Initiated 40 days ago on 7 July 2024) Discussion has already died down and the 30 days have elapsed. Uninvolved closure is requested. Thanks a lot! Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 21:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- @Chaotic Enby I was reviewing this for a close, but I wonder if reopening the RFC and reducing the number of options would help find a consensus. It seems like a consensus could be found between options A or D. Nemov (talk) 12:35, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- That could definitely work! Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 12:41, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 40 days ago on 8 July 2024). Ready for closing, last !vote was 12 July by looks of it. CNC (talk) 16:27, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 38 days ago on 9 July 2024) Poster withdrew the RfC but due to the language used, I think a summary by an WP:UNINVOLVED editor would be preferable. Nickps (talk) 20:52, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 32 days ago on 15 July 2024) -sche (talk) 15:19, 14 August 2024 (UTC)
- There have been only 5 !votes since end July (out of 50+) so this could be closed now. Selfstudier (talk) 10:23, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Place new discussions concerning RfCs above this line using a level 3 heading
Deletion discussions
V | May | Jun | Jul | Aug | Total |
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CfD | 0 | 0 | 0 | 37 | 37 |
TfD | 0 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 4 |
MfD | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 |
FfD | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 |
RfD | 0 | 0 | 16 | 21 | 37 |
AfD | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 |
Place new discussions concerning XfDs above this line using a level 3 heading
Other types of closing requests
(Initiated 261 days ago on 29 November 2023) Discussion started 29 November 2023. Last comment 25 July 2024. TarnishedPathtalk 00:34, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 84 days ago on 24 May 2024) Originally closed 3 June 2024, relisted following move review on 17 June 2024 (34 days ago). Last comment was only 2 days ago, but comments have been trickling in pretty slowly for weeks. Likely requires a decently experienced closer. Dylnuge (Talk • Edits) 01:54, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 81 days ago on 28 May 2024) Latest comment: 3 days ago, 79 comments, 37 people in discussion. Closing statement may be helpful for future discussions. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:29, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
Doing...— Frostly (talk) 22:35, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Frostly Are you still planning on doing this? Soni (talk) 16:57, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Soni, yes - have drafted close and will post by the end of today. Thanks! — Frostly (talk) 17:56, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- I wanted to note that this is taking slightly longer than expected, but it is at the top of my priority and will be completed soon. — Frostly (talk) 05:14, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Frostly Just checking, would you like someone else to help with this? Soni (talk) 07:31, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I wanted to note that this is taking slightly longer than expected, but it is at the top of my priority and will be completed soon. — Frostly (talk) 05:14, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Soni, yes - have drafted close and will post by the end of today. Thanks! — Frostly (talk) 17:56, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
- @Frostly Are you still planning on doing this? Soni (talk) 16:57, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
- Archived. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 13:32, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 79 days ago on 30 May 2024) Contentious merge discussion requiring uninvolved closer. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:35, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 69 days ago on 8 June 2024) Since much of the discussion centers on the title of the article rather than its content, the closer should also take into account the requested move immediately below on the talk page. Smyth (talk) 15:17, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- If the closer finds "no consensus", I have proposed this route in which a discussion on merger and RM can happen simultaneously to give clearer consensus.VR (Please ping on reply) 20:10, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
(Initiated 40 days ago on 8 July 2024) – Editors would feel more comfortable if an uninvolved closer provided a clear statement about whether a consensus to WP:SPLIT exists, and (if so) whether to split this list into two or three lists. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:06, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
Place new discussions concerning other types of closing requests above this line using a level 3 heading
Block review requested for Historiographer
Historiographer (talk · contribs)
WP:ANI#Personal attack by User: Historiographer
The user has been blocked after a complaint at ANI, I ask for clarification regarding consideration of the phrase "Please, Don't mind too." which has not been referred to by the original complainant or the blocking admin. It appears to have been overlooked, despite it's significance, which changes entirely what appeared as a npa into very wise advice. Penyulap ☏ 16:21, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Whatever it is you're doing, you're not helping the user; posting unblock-requests on someone else's talkpage knowing full well they will be declined isn't good. Historiographer now has two declined unblock-request on his page, neither of which were even made by him/her. I suggest someone remove these so it won't give the wrong impression when giving just a quick glance. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 17:34, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- It looks to me like someone with limited English skills (thought their English is far better than my Korean or Japanese) attempting to show empathy, by recounting some unfair postings that the individual has learned to ignore, and is giving similar advice. If I'm reading correctly, the proper response isn't a block, but some wikilove.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 17:43, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- I highly agree, has the blocking admin been contacted? Ryan Vesey Review me! 17:46, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- There's a lot more to this than one comment - heck, just look at his remarks after being mentioned on ANI. Too bad at English to contribute to discussion imo, so even if block removed he should only be doing edits that don't require discussion (whatever they may be). Egg Centric 17:51, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- (ec)Actually, the block is for more than just some NPA-slip; this user has a history of edit-warring, attacks and other stuff. So it's not like it's made to look; there's more. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 17:52, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- The last edit war block was over a year ago. Ryan Vesey Review me! 17:54, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- hm. I didn't know you had the right to edit-war once a year. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 18:20, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- The point is that it is not relevant to the current case, which appears to not be a case at all and just a mistake on the blocking admin's part. SilverserenC 18:26, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- I was going to make the same point, but Silver Seren beat me to it. Ryan Vesey Review me! 18:27, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- No, it is not a mistake. Why is this split across the two noticeboards? I commented on the thread at WP:ANI. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:30, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- I don't know why it's split between two discussions, you might want to merge them. However, i've read your statement over there and I very much disagree with you. This block is significantly out of proportion. The next logical step, if a block was warranted, would be to go to 1 week, after the last block a year ago of 72 hours. But a block is not warranted here, a warning is. SilverserenC 18:39, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think this is split across two notice boards because a request for a block is viewed as an incident requiring quick action, and belonging on the incident page, while a review of a block is less urgent and belongs on the AN page. That said, the page instruction leave a lot to be desired. I've figured out what goes where mostly by osmosis.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 19:01, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- I don't know why it's split between two discussions, you might want to merge them. However, i've read your statement over there and I very much disagree with you. This block is significantly out of proportion. The next logical step, if a block was warranted, would be to go to 1 week, after the last block a year ago of 72 hours. But a block is not warranted here, a warning is. SilverserenC 18:39, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- No, it is not a mistake. Why is this split across the two noticeboards? I commented on the thread at WP:ANI. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:30, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- hm. I didn't know you had the right to edit-war once a year. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 18:20, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- The last edit war block was over a year ago. Ryan Vesey Review me! 17:54, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Moving my earlier response here from WP:ANI:
- @Penyulap: I am at a loss to understand why you would think the "Please, Don't mind too" part of Historiographer's edit [1] is relevant to the block reasons. That bit is of course harmless. What's not harmless is the fact that he was calling Japanese users Jjokbaries (a racist slur) and was describing them wholesale as disruptive social misfits who enjoyed damaging Wikipedia articles. If that was not the expression of a deeply entrenched battleground attitude, I don't know what is. Moreover, the block was also based on a review of his previous pattern of contributions (although these are mostly some months back; he's been inactive of late except for today's talk page post). Historiographer obviously knows too little English to interact with other editors in a meaningful, constructive way when dealing with complex POV disputes, and that means that his editing has been mostly restricted to blanket reverts of other users accompanied with edit summaries in broken, almost incomprehensible English. Such behaviour, even if done in good faith, is disruptive especially when it happens in a highly charged, contentious topic area such as this. WP:COMPETENCE is required.
- This is not to say that other users in the field may not also be deserving of similar blocks, or even more so. Historiographer's outburst against Japanese editors who "feels ecstasy when they bothering Koreans", while unacceptable in the way he expressed it, may partly be a sign of an understandable frustration, because, frankly, we have had a couple of Japanese users in the past to whom this description more or less applied. I don't know how many of them are currently on the loose. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:00, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
And more responses to the comments above:
- @SPhilbrick and others: I also cannot follow you at all in describing this posting as "attempting to show empathy, by recounting some unfair postings that the individual has learned to ignore, and is giving similar advice". I'll give you my own translation of the original post into proper English, staying as close as possible to what Historiographer apparently meant to say:
- Japanese users such as Kusunose, who restrict themselves to Korea-related articles, have always been annoying like this. I used to confront these troublesome jjokbaris [i.e. Japanese bastards] just like you are doing now. However, there is no definite solution to this problem, because anti-Korean Japanese users are otaku [i.e. obsessed] hikikomori [i.e. loners] and get their greatest joy out of annoying Koreans. Please ignore them. Truth will prevail on Wikipedia regardless of Japanese lies.
- There is no reasonable way of reading this posting according to which Historiographer isn't:
- calling Japanese editors "bastards/scum" ("jjokbari") – this is not within the scope of what he "used to do" but "is no longer doing"; he is clearly saying now that these people actually are scum;
- describing Japanese editors as socially impaired (roughly: "obsessed basement-dwelling nerds");
- attributing to Japanese editors a fundamental desire to harm Wikipedia;
- describing the disputes between Korean and Japanese editors as a matter of "truth" versus "lies" ("hoaxes");
- reenforcing the other editor's (a newbie's) description of Japanese editors as "vandals" (rather than trying to dissuade him of that mistake, as any reasonable experienced editor should).
- @Silverseren: I don't take kindly to baseless insinuations of "involved" admin misuse; please retract that because I regard it as an insult. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:29, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- I read it differently.
- I read it, using a very generous translation, as saying" "I can sympathize with your feelings. There are some (not all) editors who have been very annoying. So annoying I viewed them as bastards, but I now realize they are simply obsessed, and are just acting like trolls to annoy you. Don't fall for it; ignore them, and you will be better off."
- Good advice, if accompanied by stronger language than necessary. Worth a trip to WQA? Probably. Worth a three month block? Not IMO.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 19:36, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, but you are misreading it. This is definitely not what he was saying. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:45, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that the block was much stronger than necessary. There were some racist personal attacks there, but I think anything more than a week is completely unreasonable and I'm not entirely sure a block was absolutely necessary prior to a full ANI discussion. Ryan Vesey Review me! 19:43, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- After seeing this edit I am fully supportive of the block. I still think 3 months becomes punitive rather than preventative. Ryan Vesey Review me! 19:46, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Okay, but you were the one who blocked him twice before. Don't you think that makes you biased in terms of this user, especially when others are pointing out that it seems too much? SilverserenC 19:39, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Not too involved, 3rr blocks are fairly cut and dry and don't generally equate to "involvement" Ryan Vesey Review me! 19:46, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- (ec) No, it doesn't. Since when does being acquainted with a user's disruptive pattern from an administrator's perspective make an administrator automatically biased? Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:45, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- When a future block of the user seems overdone. A week would have been defensible, not three months. SilverserenC 19:58, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- My only possibly bias in this area is that I am of the opinion we should treat all disruptive editors in the Korea-Japan hotspot areas, on both sides, with extra harshness. Having followed disputes in this domain from a distance for several years, I have come to the opinion that the whole field is so overrun with hopelessly unproductive editors that in order to restore sanity we would have to kick out about 80% of them. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:09, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- When a future block of the user seems overdone. A week would have been defensible, not three months. SilverserenC 19:58, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Good advice, if accompanied by stronger language than necessary. Worth a trip to WQA? Probably. Worth a three month block? Not IMO.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 19:36, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- I thoroughly agree with Future Perfect at Sunrise's interpretation of the above screed, and my only complaint is that this block isn't indef. But I suppose this is a good compromise; if you really, seriously cannot see the problem with referring to Japanese people as jjokbaris (which is sort of like calling them Japs or slant-eyes in English), I can't help you (despite my signature, I can assure you that I'm white and don't have any personal reason to be offended). I don't think we'd tolerate an American editor complaining about wetbacks or a Polish editor complaining about krauts, so I don't see why we should do anything different here. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 20:06, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Future Perfect at Sunrise, it is policy itself that the English server is shared amongst all editors with different variants of English. They do not ask any special treatment that you take sufficient care to understand their variant of the english language, it is policy that you must. You describe the editors summaries as "broken, almost incomprehensible English." they may be so to you, however, do you not see that there are people who do have a clear understanding of the editors remarks ? How does this fit in with your mention of WP:COMPETENCE in your ability to cope with judging the editors remarks ? Penyulap ☏ 20:24, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Broken English is not a "variant" of English. It's just broken. Yes, one can generally figure out what he means, with some effort. That doesn't change the fact that the presence of English at this poor level is disruptive to the smooth working of the project. As, incidentally, can be seen from the fact that in this particular instance some observers here obviously could not figure out what he was saying, even when they tried. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:30, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- The Blade of the Northern Lights, I do agree with you about the harshness required for dealing with racial trolling, however there are two separate issues here and as best I can see Future Perfect at Sunrise is unaware of the clear interpretation of the phrase "Please, Don't mind too." which was overlooked and left out of the original complaint. It reverses the statement. It is significant.
- Once that mistake is recognised and dealt with, yes of course you deal with the secondary issue of mentioning such things in conversation masked as good advice as inflammatory in itself, and determine if that was the intention. Overt attack is the reasoning behind the block, and an overt attack it is not. Penyulap ☏ 20:41, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- What on earth are you talking about? How does "Please, Don't mind too" "reverse the statement"? It does not. The phrase meant "please ignore what those Japanese editors are doing". What on earth did you think it meant? Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:50, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- I feel I understood it, and that was that. It was wise advice from one editor to another, it DID NOT name any other editor, was sympathetic and intended to ease tensions rather than inflame them. If we are going to sit and search for a fault with any editor there are more likely candidates than this one. The finer interpretation of hidden dynamics, I feel should not be handled by an admin who describes that editors variant as incomprehensible.
- SPhilbrick seems to have translated into a more familiar to you ? variant. So if you want to know what "reverse the statement" means, leave the italicised words out of his translation. "I can sympathize with your feelings. There are some (not all) editors who have been very annoying. So annoying I viewed them as bastards, but I now realize they are simply obsessed, and are just acting like trolls to annoy you. Don't fall for it; ignore them, and you will be better off." although, I think the original editor said it better himself in his own language. "Please, Don't mind too." is not open to ambiguity. Penyulap ☏ 21:05, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- You are misreading this in such an absurd fashion I really have nothing more to say. Except for this: if this guy's English is so poor that he could be misunderstood by a competent speaker of English, like you, in such an utterly absurd way, that's all the more grounds for keeping him blocked. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:11, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- SPhilbrick seems to have translated into a more familiar to you ? variant. So if you want to know what "reverse the statement" means, leave the italicised words out of his translation. "I can sympathize with your feelings. There are some (not all) editors who have been very annoying. So annoying I viewed them as bastards, but I now realize they are simply obsessed, and are just acting like trolls to annoy you. Don't fall for it; ignore them, and you will be better off." although, I think the original editor said it better himself in his own language. "Please, Don't mind too." is not open to ambiguity. Penyulap ☏ 21:05, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Righteous block Nobody Ent 21:27, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Knowledge_English_EU_map.png/350px-Knowledge_English_EU_map.png)
- Certainly if I were the only person who 'misunderstood' the editors comments I may doubt myself and review several times more until I could see my misinterpretation, however I see that I am not alone. I find that I am endlessly quoting and linking to this policy page in articles, and once before at ANI I posted up the image I will repost here. Whilst I can understand that you find other variants of English disruptive in themselves, I don't think it proper to interpret policy in a way that places your own sub-demographic above all others.
- If language is a reason to block, we need to update policy to decide which variant to use. Penyulap ☏ 21:41, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Does that mean we can block all the British editors? Because British English is confusing, imo. SilverserenC 21:59, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Eenie, meenie, minee, MO! which way shall we GO ? I'm sure you know there are like 250 million people in America, but did you know there are 80 million Nigerians who speak English ? Maybe they can run scams on the 125,000,000 people in India who can speak English, you know using the call centres, and there are 90 million English speakers in the phillipines, sweet, so, who do we ban pre-emptively first ? Personally I think it should be the whistleblower, that would be me, I'll return as a sock and help you ban all these variant speakers shall I? Yep, I'm losing it, time for me to get something to eat I guess, or play a computergame. Penyulap ☏ 22:04, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Clearly, the easiest method is to ban everyone who isn't American. SilverserenC 22:19, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Eenie, meenie, minee, MO! which way shall we GO ? I'm sure you know there are like 250 million people in America, but did you know there are 80 million Nigerians who speak English ? Maybe they can run scams on the 125,000,000 people in India who can speak English, you know using the call centres, and there are 90 million English speakers in the phillipines, sweet, so, who do we ban pre-emptively first ? Personally I think it should be the whistleblower, that would be me, I'll return as a sock and help you ban all these variant speakers shall I? Yep, I'm losing it, time for me to get something to eat I guess, or play a computergame. Penyulap ☏ 22:04, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Does that mean we can block all the British editors? Because British English is confusing, imo. SilverserenC 21:59, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
I'm going with Blade on this one: resorting to racist slurs should result in an indef. Full stop, no exceptions. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 22:33, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- What about Blades similar use of slurs, he said "I don't think we'd tolerate an American editor complaining about wetbacks or a Polish editor complaining about krauts, so I don't see why we should do anything different here." I count two slurs right there, we should indef him, and omg I just repeated them, so indef me as well. And the Americans, Canadians, omg lets go SOPA for a day and block everyone to teach them all a lesson.
- But seriously, which interpretation are you going on HandThatFeeds ? the overt one, the covert one, or are you aware there is a difference ? Penyulap ☏ 22:51, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, quit being so melodramatic. You know damn well what I'm talking about. Your hyperbole and incessant need to go over-the-top is not helping these discussions. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 11:35, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
Template use prohibition
Seems like other than the blocked editor posting the unblock template is confusing and disruptive... does this happen frequently enough to make discussion of a formal prohibition worthwhile? Nobody Ent 21:27, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- certainly it is, looking over the unblock pages and guides it says nothing whatsoever about third parties, I would gladly help with some feedback :) Penyulap ☏ 21:41, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- The documentation for the template says "The following should be placed on your talk page:"Nobody Ent 21:47, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, I didn't think of just how funny it would have been if I did it that way, rats! Penyulap ☏ 22:04, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hmm, well I placed it on my userpage, I have no idea how it looks there, if it is humorous or not, see for yourself now would someone please move this little section or start a suggestion somewhere that the docs for the template are inadequate or something ? way I see it at the moment, if you want to unblock someone, use an unblock template, if there is some other way to do it, lets not keep it a secret any longer, as for me, I'll go on using the template as is, it's good enough for me. Whatever happens, it's not relevant to this discussion, imho, sorry Nobody Ent. Penyulap ☏ 22:26, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Uh, Penyulap, it's phrased that way because the template is only supposed to be used by the blocked party. Therefore, it is posted on their talkpage. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 22:38, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- That's where I put it. on their talkpage, but it goes on my talkpage doesn't it? Penyulap ☏ 22:46, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- No, you don't use it at all. The blocked editor may use it if they want to be unblocked. It is not appropriate for another user to request unblocking through those templates. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 11:40, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- That's where I put it. on their talkpage, but it goes on my talkpage doesn't it? Penyulap ☏ 22:46, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Uh, Penyulap, it's phrased that way because the template is only supposed to be used by the blocked party. Therefore, it is posted on their talkpage. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 22:38, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hmm, well I placed it on my userpage, I have no idea how it looks there, if it is humorous or not, see for yourself now would someone please move this little section or start a suggestion somewhere that the docs for the template are inadequate or something ? way I see it at the moment, if you want to unblock someone, use an unblock template, if there is some other way to do it, lets not keep it a secret any longer, as for me, I'll go on using the template as is, it's good enough for me. Whatever happens, it's not relevant to this discussion, imho, sorry Nobody Ent. Penyulap ☏ 22:26, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, I didn't think of just how funny it would have been if I did it that way, rats! Penyulap ☏ 22:04, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- The documentation for the template says "The following should be placed on your talk page:"Nobody Ent 21:47, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Of note, this is his response: "Ha Ha Ha, don't be such an ass! Whatever you are saying, I'm not interested"[2]
- Obviously not interested in help, and does not care about the block. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 22:37, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Glad you can join us halfway through, were now going in the same direction, it's just that little bit faster now. Penyulap ☏ 22:46, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think we're going in the same direction at all. The user was offensive and does not care that he was blocked. There's nothing further to do here. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 11:40, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Glad you can join us halfway through, were now going in the same direction, it's just that little bit faster now. Penyulap ☏ 22:46, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
"Ha Ha Ha, don't be such an ass! Whatever you are saying, I'm not interested" actually means "I deeply care about my being blocked and promise I will never engage in such behavior again. Please unblock me." Remember, the user has limited knowledge of the English language. WP:AGF. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 22:49, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- (illistration using some sarcasm, basically asking what do you expect?)Hmm I think they should be more like "Omg I am so sorry that I am upset that you have incorrectly blocked me in a biased manner, I so sorry, I not speak enwish, you aways right because wikipwedia is american, please block me some more because I not happy with your mistake" anything less should go indef. Penyulap ☏ 22:55, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- On a serious note, this has NOTHING whatsoever to do with AGF which is not policy, this has to do with an admin with by his own admission little or no understanding of the editors variant blocking that editor based on his interpretation of that editors English. That IS against policy. (is there a policy along the lines of don't close your eyes and fire a gun randomly?) Penyulap ☏ 22:58, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Am I alone in thinking that Penyulap is now simply trolling? This is just getting too bizarre. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:02, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
I wonder if Penyulap realizes that the user called him an ass.In light of the rest of the information that came about here, I wouldn't be opposed to indef block, no talk page access, rather than the 3 month block in existence now (Contrary to my earlier comments). Ryan Vesey Review me! 23:10, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Am I alone in thinking that Penyulap is now simply trolling? This is just getting too bizarre. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:02, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- On a serious note, this has NOTHING whatsoever to do with AGF which is not policy, this has to do with an admin with by his own admission little or no understanding of the editors variant blocking that editor based on his interpretation of that editors English. That IS against policy. (is there a policy along the lines of don't close your eyes and fire a gun randomly?) Penyulap ☏ 22:58, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- (illistration using some sarcasm, basically asking what do you expect?)Hmm I think they should be more like "Omg I am so sorry that I am upset that you have incorrectly blocked me in a biased manner, I so sorry, I not speak enwish, you aways right because wikipwedia is american, please block me some more because I not happy with your mistake" anything less should go indef. Penyulap ☏ 22:55, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
You may call me a troll, you may call me an ass, or you may indeed call me a troll's ass for good measure, I do not mind, I prefer the third. I see the same systemic problem that I saw with AndytheGrump recently, where the accused does his best to undermine wikipedia by refocusing the discussion upon his accuser.
I would suggest that, (using your own language and phrasing so you can understand with ease)
- You "obviously know too little English" to place blocks upon other editors in a meaningful, constructive way when dealing with complex language issues. You found an editor upon whom you placed a block as having "broken, almost incomprehensible English." and yet still resisted any advice on the matter from many other editors and admins.
- You've said "I am at a loss to understand why you would think the Please, Don't mind too part of Historiographer's edit is relevant to the block reasons." and resist any attempt by many people to help you understand why it IS relevant.
- You've said "some observers here obviously could not figure out what he was saying, even when they tried." and don't want to take advice from the people who can understand with some ease.
- You've said "Having followed disputes in this domain from a distance for several years, I have come to the opinion that the whole field is so overrun with hopelessly unproductive editors that in order to restore sanity we would have to kick out about 80% of them."
- You suggest that if an editor is capable of being misunderstood by someone else, they should be blocked
I'm fast coming to the conclusion that it is not the block which requires review, but your adminship that requires review. Penyulap ☏ 00:44, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Drop the stick, please. I'm no particular friend of FPaS, but you're way off base here, and doing yourself harm by continuing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:41, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, this has become a complete WP:BOOMERANG. Pen, you've made it clear you like to engage in some devil's advocacy and humor, but you never seem to know when to quit. You're really pushing people's patience with this act. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 11:40, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- This seems to be a current issue with Penyulap - inserting themself into situations where they are 100% policy unaware, and thus inflame the situation - often by encouraging the other editor to speak out more loudly and improperly. A couple of months ago we had another editor who got their wrist slapped for posted unblocks "on behalf of" editors - I'm going to have to go back and find out who it was (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:48, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Bwilkins, please be kind enough to keep your personal attack 100 % to yourself. Penyulap ☏ 14:05, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- What personal attack? Where? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 14:21, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Glad to see I'm not the only person who finds Penyulap's behaviour peculiar. Somehow the quality of the trolling reminds me of Archtransit (talk · contribs) and socks. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:45, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- At first it seemed like someone who just won't quit to me, but some statements are so unreasonable that I think trolling could be a fair diagnosis. Egg Centric 15:21, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
- Glad to see I'm not the only person who finds Penyulap's behaviour peculiar. Somehow the quality of the trolling reminds me of Archtransit (talk · contribs) and socks. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:45, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- What personal attack? Where? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 14:21, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Bwilkins, please be kind enough to keep your personal attack 100 % to yourself. Penyulap ☏ 14:05, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- This seems to be a current issue with Penyulap - inserting themself into situations where they are 100% policy unaware, and thus inflame the situation - often by encouraging the other editor to speak out more loudly and improperly. A couple of months ago we had another editor who got their wrist slapped for posted unblocks "on behalf of" editors - I'm going to have to go back and find out who it was (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:48, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, this has become a complete WP:BOOMERANG. Pen, you've made it clear you like to engage in some devil's advocacy and humor, but you never seem to know when to quit. You're really pushing people's patience with this act. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 11:40, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
It’s a shame I caught this thread so late, as I think I could have prevented some of the fallout if I had seen it earlier. As an ESL teacher I deal with these kind of language issues every day, although admittedly with Japanese speakers and not Korean speakers. It would be easier for me to interpret the comment by Historiographer that started all of this if I spoke Korean in addition to speaking Japanese; however, the two languages still share many features, such as the lack of plurals and the way they use suffixes (particles) to modify words, so I can make a reasonable guess as to what's going on.
I would be grateful if a Korean speaker could check over this, but I think the true meaning of the comment by Historiographer that started this business is somewhere between Fut. Perf.’s strict interpretation and SPhilbrick’s lenient one. Here is what I think was intended:
- Japanese users like Kusunose, who diminish the quality of Korea-related articles, always keep doing annoying things like that. In earlier times I also used to do the things you have done (here referring to the actions of 222.101.9.93 (talk)) against these troublesome Jjokbaries. However, there are no definitive answers to this problem due to the fact that (some) Anti-Korean Japanese users, who some people think are otaku (obsessive nerds, probably of the computer variety) with hikikomori (loner) tendencies, feel ecstasy when they bother Koreans. Please, pay no attention to them. The contents of Wikipedia are no longer the absolute truth, regardless of what Japanese hoaxes may be perpetrated on the site. See this link. (The link appears to be a site discussing Japanese people with a decidedly anti-Japanese point of view, but the Google translation isn’t too clear.) Nowadays, I just stop responding to the Japanese otaku when I see them. (The Korean bracketed text is an idiom which I can’t translate. The direct translation is something like “don’t throw any lead” – ‘lead’ as in the metal – whatever that means.) If you do this too, it will be a great help to you. Thanks for your passion in editing those articles.
This is subjective of course, so please take my interpretation with a pinch of salt. However, if I am right, then Historiographer looks less like a holy warrior who is out to insert The Truth into Wikipedia at all costs, and more like a user tired of edit wars who is giving out good advice to fellow Koreans. However, this does not excuse the racial slur “jjokbari”, and this user obviously has an anti-Japanese point of view that will prevent them from editing neutrally on Japanese topics. Claims of a battleground mentality are fair enough, as Historiographer is plainly seeing the topic area as one of “us versus them”.
In light of this interpretation, I don’t think Penyulap was off base with this AN thread, and I wouldn’t call their subsequent posts trolling. I think that their comments about Fut. Perf. were a bit over the line, however. A claim that someone's "adminship requires review" is a serious matter, and editors who make claims like this should be prepared to back them up with serious evidence. I also think the others in the discussion who criticised Historiographer have very good points. Although we should assume a degree of good faith about Historiographer’s comment due to their low language ability, we can’t just ignore the obvious racial slur and POV, and their subsequent caustic talk page comments. We must also bear in mind that competence is required – although I don't think we can reasonably say that a low English level by itself is disruptive, there is no denying that it makes it harder to contribute usefully here. On balance, I think Historiographer deserved to be blocked, although I think 3 months might be a bit harsh in light of my interpretation of their comment above. And Penyulap, it’s probably best to leave this one alone now, and go and do something relaxing. I suggest a nice long bath and some chocolate. :-) Sorry for the tl;dr everyone. Best regards — Mr. Stradivarius on tour (have a chat) 06:13, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you. I don't see that your paraphrase differs from mine in any particularly important way, so I can't really see how it would be the basis for a milder assessment of the situation. In particular, all the five points I listed in conclusion to my earlier paraphrase (further up in this thread) still apply under your reading. Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:53, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Guys, please understand that Penyulap is definitely not a troll, not is his intention to be trolling. Pen and I seem to understand each other pretty well (we have some attributes in common, heh!) Pen cares deeply when he sees something (I'm having real trouble hunting for the right words here, but our Aspie and Autie editors will understand it immediately) being considered from one angle (obvious to neurotypicals) and not being seen from an alternative (or possibly many alternative) angles. For the non-Autie types, it's a bit like a good musician hearing one of those god-awful electronic doorbells which cannot play a single tune in tune; or like an unscratchable itch, or someone scraping their fingernails down a blackboard. Very often we can't "see" something the way other people can see it, but here's the other side of the coin: we "see" things, clearly, which other people miss. That works both ways. But please don't label Pen as a troll; he's very far from being one. Pesky (talk) 09:36, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you everyone, I apologise Future Perfect at Sunrise, I am not attempting to troll anyone. I do have an insatiable drive to be certain that editors can see just what is going on in situations where I clearly see hidden dynamics, so that the community as a whole can judge a situation for themselves 'without distortion and concealment' :). This has nothing whatsoever to do with you, this is a desire to see that everyone has the same 'level playing field'. I only 'persist' until all significant hidden dynamics have been exposed, or to put it another way, the stick is not to hurt anyone, it's just to uncover everything, once that is done, I do not care one iota for the stick or the discussion, as it is not my decision that has any meaning at all. In this case I have nothing else to add and no opinion on the matter whatsoever as there are experts aplenty. I apologise if our interaction has been painful for you, my intentions had nothing to do with you beyond examining motives of everyone concerned. Penyulap ☏ 19:43, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Guys, please understand that Penyulap is definitely not a troll, not is his intention to be trolling. Pen and I seem to understand each other pretty well (we have some attributes in common, heh!) Pen cares deeply when he sees something (I'm having real trouble hunting for the right words here, but our Aspie and Autie editors will understand it immediately) being considered from one angle (obvious to neurotypicals) and not being seen from an alternative (or possibly many alternative) angles. For the non-Autie types, it's a bit like a good musician hearing one of those god-awful electronic doorbells which cannot play a single tune in tune; or like an unscratchable itch, or someone scraping their fingernails down a blackboard. Very often we can't "see" something the way other people can see it, but here's the other side of the coin: we "see" things, clearly, which other people miss. That works both ways. But please don't label Pen as a troll; he's very far from being one. Pesky (talk) 09:36, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- I briefly want to make a few points (I'm not a native Korean speaker but I do speak it and Korea is my field of expertise). Firstly, while there's probably a context here that I won't get on a cursory overview (though I have encountered the user's past edits while cleaning up Korea-related articles), the use of "jjokbari" should not be understood in the same light as racist remarks in English. Use of terms like jjokbari is pretty common among Koreans and is much milder than obvious racial slurs in English, and Korea itself is not a particularly "race-sensitive" society. Nationalism is hegemonic in Korea, so Koreans have a very different idea of what constitutes "NPOV". I don't mean this as some sort of relativist clarion call, I just wanted to add this since I think there's a danger of overlooking the cultural context here (I'm responding in particular to Future Perfect's remark about racial insensitivity meriting an indef block). (Stradivarius - I wouldn't get carried away with the Japanese/Korean similarities, sentence structures in Korean are actually very different to those of Japanese -- but in this case I think the meaning is pretty clear with or without grammatical interpolations.) I would be inclined to view his remarks as basically meaning "Don't let the Japanese trolls get you down". The parenthetical remark literally means "Don't throw bait" (don't trust Google Translate for Korean, their algorithms come up with some very bizarre translations for individual terms). --Tyrannus Mundi (talk) 22:27, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- I like Google translate, but it hates me and calls me a Juggler, blah ! Penyulap ☏ 23:14, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarifications, Tyrannus Mundi. Your comment makes a lot of sense. I also wanted to say one more thing about Historiographer's original comment. I think that he is only referring to a subset of Japanese users - i.e. the ones he says are "otaku" with "hikikomori" tendencies - not all Japanese users. I think the intention is easy to mistake here, as the whole comment starts with "Japanese users", and the qualifier "like Kusunose" is relatively far away, after a sub-clause, plus the punctuation is confusing. Two of the three other mentions of Japanese users in the comment are qualified directly, i.e. "Anti-Korean Japanese users" and "Japanese otaku", and I don't think the third, "Japanese hoax", can be assumed to refer to all Japanese users. Not that describing a subset of Japanese users rather than all Japanese users excuses the comment per se, but it does contrast with Fut. Perf.'s five points above. — Mr. Stradivarius (have a chat) 01:29, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
- Regardless, a "Japanese [derogatory]" noun phrase is offensive enough to support some action, especially in a situation without the user providing his/her own mea culpa. It objectively expresses bias/antipathy based on nationality/ethnicity in the common language of the project, whatever the subjective intent maybe. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:15, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
proposed ban duration of 14 days
Discussion of the matter appears to have concluded. Suggested alternatives to the current block include indefinite banning, a week, less than a week, a warning rather than a block, and a trip to WQA, with the most frequently referred to duration being a week.
Propose changing the block duration to 14 days. Penyulap ☏ 19:55, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- I see no reason to change the block from indef until the editor him/herself requests it. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 13:36, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
Do we need another notice board?
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Penyulap (talk • contribs) 04:08, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
Ban proposal for editor Sju hav
To all Wikipedians, I am now proposing a siteban on editor Sju hav (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). After his indefinitely block in 2010, he has, to date, created over 48 sock puppets within the period of three years, and is believed to have created/used 38 more accounts. He continually creates additional accounts to evade his block, perform 3RR violations on articles of his interest, even after his editing privileges have been revoked. He has also participates in denying having any sockpuppets, when clearly he is just doing so. I believe the community needs to step up and collectively say "you're done here" through establishing consensus for a full ban on him.
- Support: Due to the nominator of the site ban on this editor. Mr. Wikipediania Talk 06:10, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:BLOCKBANDIFF. I don't see the point of these repeated calls for bans. See also another section above, by the same nominator, and ongoing discussion at Wikipedia_talk:List_of_banned_users#Treatment_of_de-facto-banned_users. Drmies (talk) 13:34, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Support in this case. There might not be a technical difference, but this guy needs a hard slap. Sven Manguard Wha? 18:40, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Is this deletable?
File:Schliemann mansion 1900.png appears to be a recreation of an image deleted after discussion on commons, see [3]. I note that in the deletion discussion the uploader has said "Secondly, I am not in the slightest bit interested in US copyright law. The applicable law here is Greek, which clearly you do not know, and I assert my own copyright under Greek law." I'm not raising this as a copyvio issue here, just asking if we can delete here with the grounds that it was deleted after discussion on Commons (and if we can't, that won't be a surprise). I do think I can delete on the copyvio issue though. Dougweller (talk) 13:58, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- If these are postcards made c.1900, and, as such, can be safely assumed to have been published around the same time too, then they are fair game under {{PD-US-1923}}. Commons may have been right about deleting them, based on the principle that on Commons they need to be PD both in the country of origin and in the US, but here on en-wp it's only US law that counts. I think the uploader has gotten the legal argument the wrong way round if he is arguing he can use them under Greek but not under US law. It's actually US law that allows us to keep them. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:07, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- (Adding to this, I'd be skeptical about the uploader's claim that his modifications (colouring etc.) constitute a new copyright of his own, so I'd prefer tagging them as PD-US-1923 rather than cc-by-sa under his own authorship, but the basic fact that the original postcards are PD remains the same. If his argument holds that there is no retroactive copyright for that period under local Greek law either, that's fine, but it doesn't really matter much either way.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:12, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, this is wrong. The images published by me are not PD images: they are my own copyright and published as CC-by-SA on flickr. I know far more about copyright law than anyone here so please just accept this. I am in accordance with the law of the EU and Greece. US law has nothing to say on this, since it is outside of its jurisdiction. Please do not make this into a legal challenge; you will lose and waste everyone's time and money. But you cannot appropriate my personal copyright, nor make into PD things that are not. 85.72.192.70 (talk) 14:21, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Moreover, I have followed both law and the rules of WP to the letter. If you should arbitrarily countermand my actions -- in breach of both WP rules and European law -- this is legally actionable. The only reason that these things continue with illegal actions on wikimedia and elsewhere is that it costs money to sue. If people start doing this, you will have good reason to worry. Law is not simple, and copyright law in particular is very very complex. As things currently stand, the only person against whom any legal action could be taken is me -- for publishing significantly altered uncopyrighted images as my own copyright. If you change anything, you and wikipedia are open to legal action -- by me or by unknown persons. 85.72.192.70 (talk) 14:36, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- The analysis given above are correct. We consider both the US nature of the work (due to en.wiki being hosted on US soil) and the originating country of the work. An image may be copyrighted in one country but be considered PD in the other. To that end, en.wiki will still call them non-free images since they cannot be free reused by any reader. But we can mark them as PD within the United States only as long as the date qualifies it correctly. --MASEM (t) 14:46, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- The Wikimedia and Wikipedia servers are in the United States, so that jurisdiction is indeed relevant to this question. For what it's worth, colourization would indeed be grounds for an additional copyright under US law. The colourized images should not be tagged as public domain. —Psychonaut (talk) 14:49, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- I have blocked 85.72.192.70 for making legal threats. The block is initially for 24 hours to allow reconsideration of this policy infringement Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:53, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Let me try to understand this correctly. You have tried to ban me from speaking here, because I did the following: (1) outline the legal situation concerning non-copyrighted (they are not PD) images that have been substantially altered in an EU country; (2) defend my own copyright rights; (3) explain that certain actions would be illegal and lay WP open to litigation. By your criteria, every lawyer in the world should be arrested for "making threats" and anyone who asserts his rights should be too. Some people might describe this way of thinking as authoritarian or fascist -- but it is certainly neither democratic nor lawful. 85.74.231.186 (talk) 15:08, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- I have blocked 85.72.192.70 for making legal threats. The block is initially for 24 hours to allow reconsideration of this policy infringement Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:53, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
It is your item (3). See WP:NLT: "If you have a dispute with the community or its members, use dispute resolution. If you do choose to use legal action or threats of legal action to resolve disputes, you will not be allowed to continue editing until it is resolved and your user account or IP address may be blocked. ". JoeSperrazza (talk) 15:29, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Item (3) explains to you that WP would be open to legal action by other persons, as well as by me. It is not a threat. I thought it was very clear that I was making a rational and legal argument. 85.74.231.186 (talk) 16:20, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Also see WP:EVADE: " User accounts or IP addresses used to evade a block may also be blocked". JoeSperrazza (talk) 15:30, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Time to block the actual account, User:Xenos2008 I think. Dougweller (talk) 15:33, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, per this edit [4]. JoeSperrazza (talk) 15:36, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- I've blocked the account as well for legal threats. Note that although the IP block was 24 hours (which is ok for an IP address which he seems able to change), a legal threat block is normally indefinite (and of course can be lifted in minutes). Dougweller (talk) 16:08, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Uh-oh. I could have predicted that Xenos wouldn't react well to being reminded of the NLT policy. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:10, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- I have not made any legal threats. I have pointed out what the law is. There is a big difference. There is not even any subtle use of language implying threats: this is just abuse of power by people on WP. 85.74.231.186 (talk) 16:16, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- All an unblock needs is a statement on your account page that you will not take legal action or suggest that others do so. I'm blocking this IP now. Dougweller (talk) 16:26, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Oh come on, Xenos. I respect you; you're a knowledgable contributor and those images are great. It's just that with your irate tone you're not going to get your way in this project. Just be the bigger person, say that you don't intend to sue anybody, and then we can figure out those details over Greek vs. US law or public domain vs CC-BY. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:30, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. I have never said that I would sue anyone: I was talking about the legal position of these images. I see no reason to retract something that I did not say! 85.74.224.205 (talk) 17:07, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- I have not made any legal threats. I have pointed out what the law is. There is a big difference. There is not even any subtle use of language implying threats: this is just abuse of power by people on WP. 85.74.231.186 (talk) 16:16, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Uh-oh. I could have predicted that Xenos wouldn't react well to being reminded of the NLT policy. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:10, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- I've blocked the account as well for legal threats. Note that although the IP block was 24 hours (which is ok for an IP address which he seems able to change), a legal threat block is normally indefinite (and of course can be lifted in minutes). Dougweller (talk) 16:08, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, per this edit [4]. JoeSperrazza (talk) 15:36, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Time to block the actual account, User:Xenos2008 I think. Dougweller (talk) 15:33, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- On a somewhat related note, I believe that image is more trouble than it's worth. Can someone please IAR delete it? Salvio Let's talk about it! 16:21, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- That would be a pity. I rather like those pics, and they are potentially valuable for any article on the history of Athens. Since the only disagreement is whether they are PD-old or CC-BY, I don't really see grounds for deletion. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:25, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Indeed, I don't see any grounds for deletion. Snowolf How can I help? 16:30, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Is there no way of getting the original ones? Those we are sure are PD, I mean. Salvio Let's talk about it! 16:31, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Apparently they are collector's items in Xenos' personal possession. Unlikely that good online copies should exist elsewhere. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:36, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Is there no way of getting the original ones? Those we are sure are PD, I mean. Salvio Let's talk about it! 16:31, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Indeed, I don't see any grounds for deletion. Snowolf How can I help? 16:30, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- I find it absolutely outrageous that I should have to keep changing my IP address to have a polite discussion about the legal status of images that I posted onto WP. Do you not see that this is abuse of power? Specifically, let me clarify what has happened (also on wikimedia). I have been collecting rare antiques (books, map and postcards/photos) on the history of Greece and especially Athens over several years. Some of these images are posted on the web as scanned (not high quality remastered) and they cannot be used on wikimedia. So I decided to scan some antiques in my possession, work on the image quality to re-present the historical image better, and post them on wikimedia. Over there, some Germans started crap about copyright law and they were not PD images that I had scanned, so they could not be left there at all.
- This obliged me to research on Greek copyright law more carefully. There was no copyright on anything before 1920, and the 1993 and later laws are not retroactive. These are therefore not public domain images that I scanned, so much as uncopyrighted (and open to legal challenge, unlikely as that is). Any competent copyright lawyer will explain that there is ambiguity, but in all probability the scanned images could be tolerated as PD and the altered images as my own copyright. As I mentioned above, WP takes no legal risk in allowing my images on WP: the risk is all mine. If you try to claim that my copyrighted images are PD, then this amounts to copyright theft.
- If, on the other hand, you ask me if I would consider making my images PD, then the answer is that I have tended to do that in the past, also for my own photos. The only reason I did not do so, is because (a) wikimedia claims that the originals and not PD; (b) it would be nice to have some recognition of my name for the hours of work in improving the images, not to mention the fact that I have spent money on the original items (many of which are rare and expensive). I still do not see why they have to be PD on wikipedia, since you allow CC-by-SA images which these are. 85.74.224.205 (talk) 16:54, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
Jimfbleak, I think you've really jumped the gun here with the block. I don't see any legal threats from this user, nor do I see any evidence that he was acting disruptively prior to the block. He was trying to resolve a licensing dispute in a civil manner. I hope you will consider unblocking him so that he can continue the conversation here without having to circumvent the block. —Psychonaut (talk) 17:07, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Quoting: " If you change anything, you and wikipedia are open to legal action -- by me or by unknown persons." Pretty clear cut case. And the approach was far from civil, putting those challenging the images immediately as the "bad guys". --MASEM (t) 17:10, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- A statement of law is not a threat, especially when the law itself may be unclear to you so I was setting it out. My approach was (I think) civil and irritable, since I have gone through weeks of arguing with wikimedia on points of law with these same images. Enough is enough. If you cannot accept the rule of law, then simply state it outright and do as you like. I will certainly keep away from WP (and presumably others would too). 85.74.224.205 (talk) 17:43, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- That wasn't a threat—not even a thinly veiled one. It was a statement that removing legitimate copyright notices from images—which is precisely what you proposed doing—is illegal and exposes Wikimedia to civil action, not just in this specific case, but generally. Anyone who would knowingly do this is indeed a "bad guy", as evidenced by the routine blocks and bans for this behaviour. I'm sure you would be just as taken aback if someone proposed changing or removing the licenses to the images or text you have contributed here. The uploader comes across as quite arrogant about his knowledge of copyright law, and about others' lack thereof, but that doesn't mean he's wrong. —Psychonaut (talk) 20:00, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
Block review
- Moved here from WP:ANI to keep things together. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:18, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
I would like to ask an uninvolved administrator to review the block of Xenos2008 (and associated IPs) issued following Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Is_this_deletable.3F. The situation can be summarized as follows:
- Xenos2008 uploads some images to which he has asserted a copyright claim. He tags them as "CC-BY-SA".
- Future Perfect at Sunrise and Masem dispute the copyright claim and propose changing the tags to "public domain".
- Xenos2008 inform the two that removing the valid copyright notice and license would be illegal and expose Wikipedia to legal liability.
- Jimfbleak and Dougweller block Xenos2008 for making legal threats, and tell him that he can be unblocked only if he promises not to sue.
This demand is entirely unfair. For one thing, Xenos2008 never threatened to sue to begin with. Jimfbleak and Dougweller's interpretation of his statements as a legal threat is inconsistent with past practice at WP:AN and WP:ANI; previously administrators have declined to issue blocks for similarly worded statements. HighInBC summed it up quite well in one case in 2007: "Explaining that certain actions may expose Wikipedia to legal problems is not a legal threat, even if that claim is incorrect." The blocking administrators also failed to comply with WP:LEGAL: "Rather than blocking immediately, administrators should seek to clarify the user's meaning and make sure that a mere misunderstanding is not involved." As far as I can tell, no such attempt at clarification was made before the block.
For what it's worth, Xenos2008 has categorically denied that the statement was meant to be a threat, though for some reason this avowal isn't good enough.
More importantly, what if Xenos2008 does issue the promise not to sue, only to have some editors end up removing the copyright tags from his images? If his original claim to copyright on the images was correct (and I believe it is), he has now lost (or at least jeopardized) his only legal recourse against a bona fide copyright violation. —Psychonaut (talk) 20:56, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'm off to bed, and don'd mind what happens to the block, but this isn't quite right. His images were deleted at Commons after a discussion.[5]. He then uploaded them again here. I wasn't sure whether they should be deleted or not and asked at WP:AN. Through an IP address he wrote at WP:AN "As things currently stand, the only person against whom any legal action could be taken is me -- for publishing significantly altered uncopyrighted images as my own copyright. If you change anything, you and wikipedia are open to legal action -- by me or by unknown persons." That sort of wording has been considered a legal threat before and accounts blocked. The IP was blocked, he responded from another IP. I blocked his account and made it clear he had to post there clarifying that he meant no legal threat. He hasn't done this. Using other IPs he has said that it was not a threat, but he has never said that he does not intent to take any legal action or suggest that others do so. People should read the discussion at WP:AN to see the exact wording. And please note the block evasion and failure to ask for an unblock on his account page. Dougweller (talk) 21:09, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- I should add that I would have happily unblocked immediately if he'd simply made it clear he wasn't going to take legal action. At AN he said he wasn't going to retract something he hadn't said, but in fact he was being asked to clarify it, which is not the same thing. Dougweller (talk) 21:13, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- The block was in keeping with normal practices and justified at the time it was made. However, I'm satisfied with the retraction/clarification/call-it-whatever-you-want, and I've known Xenos (and his irate temper) for long enough to know he's a potentially valuable contributor despite all harsh words, so I'm personally fine with an unblock. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:18, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Let me share one thing that I'm pretty sure I understand about US copyright law. If you take something that is PD, modify it, you can copyright it. That doesn't take away the fact that the original is PD. PD isn't a license that can be violated, it is a lack of license. PD isn't the GPL, it does not force modifications to be released under the same license, or in this case, without a license. Greek law isn't needed to establish his right to release under copyright, and isn't needed or particularly relevant here, so I won't bother with it. As for legal threat, it does appear that he was simply asserting his legal right to copyright, but I can see how that can be interpreted either way. It would make sense if he just would indicate that he will not sue anyone. It doesn't require a retraction, it requires an affirmative statement. That seems the shortest distance between these two points. I would be happy to argue his right to claim a copyright as I am convinced he is correct, even if for different reasons than he thinks applies. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 21:25, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
I fully agree with Dennis Brown. To my regards, it is fine, even necessary to describe the legal status of a derivative work. The moment that discussion begins to name litigants, it becomes a block-worthy threat. This happened and the block is justified. My76Strat (talk) 21:38, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Well, in the meantime the images have been relabelled as PD in the USA, which is not correct. They require attribution under CC-by-SA, even if the original scans (which I have not provided) are PD-old. In fact, the original scans are clearly PD in both the USA and the EU, but wikimedia refuse to accept that. (They have also relabelled images over there as PD when they are not.) As far as making a statement that I do not intend to take legal action is concerned, what is the point? It would not stop me from taking legal action later! However, I have no intention of wasting time and money going to court over some images that I have no commercial involvement with. Nor have I ever threatened to do so. 85.74.224.205 (talk) 21:53, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- You can log back in - you've been unblocked. Just sort out the copyright tags Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:59, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Dennis, I think your missing an important element in your copyright analysis, to have a copyright in the modification of a PD work, the modification must be substantial, and involve significant creativity. Many types of modifications, such as touching up, croping, or adjusting the image are not sufficient to create a copyright in the derivative. Monty845 21:57, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- That's pretty much what I was thinking when I made my initial suggestion of PD status. Not that I have a strong opinion on it either way – if he had simply said "no, I think my modifications are original enough to warrant my own copyright claim, so I'd prefer for it to be listed under my authorship", I'd have been inclined to just leave it at that, and we could have avoided a lot of the drama. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:04, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- That is in the eye of the beholder, and since it is modified, he has the right to claim copyright, and we are forced to accept this here as we are not a court of law. If someone independent of Wikipedia wants to contest this, use it as PD, forcing him to exert his right to copyright, that is a matter for the courts, not us. Here, we can only give the benefit of the doubt since it is modified and err on the side of using the most restrictive form of protection, copyright, since it is at the minimum, a legitimate claim. If for no reason other than to protect Wikipedia from potential liability as enabling infringement, this makes sense. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 22:05, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Absolutely correct statement of law, Dennis. One further point: there is no provision on flickr for labelling images as PD, so I am having to state this (for some simple scans of maps) in the text. These I would not assert any copyright over, since they are mere scans. The whole thing is tendentious anyway: doubtless people everywhere will treat images on WP as PD anyway, and whatever I do the guys on wikimedia refuse to accept the scans as PD. So there is no point changing anything, at least as far as the postcard views are concerned. My main objective is to allow people to see and use these important historical images, which I have gone to much trouble and expense to collect. Thank you. Xenos2008 (talk) 22:32, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Monty845 writes, "Many types of modifications, such as touching up, cropping, or adjusting the image are not sufficient to create a copyright in the derivative." However, that colourization of an existing work can be considered a "minimum amount of individual creative human authorship" to produce "an original work of authorship" is already a settled matter in US copyright law. The issue has arisen often enough with motion pictures that the Copyright Office has drawn up a set of criteria for determining whether a given colourization is registerable as an original work (quoted and discussed in, for example, "Update on the Film Colorization Debate Copyright Office Issues Registration Decision and Congress Considers Proposed Legislation"). I don't know whether there's a similar published list for still images, but one would imagine that the criteria would be similar. Psychonaut (talk) 22:19, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- The adjustments made vary widely across the different images, but the time taken ranges from about 90 minutes to 9 hours per image. The techniques I have used are intended to recreate as near to a modern photo as possible, in some cases quite far removed from the published image if there are serious errors in printing. Typically, this involves resetting colours by pixel groups, altering the total colour balance, removing horrible printing mistakes (smudges and overlaps) as well as damage from handling over time, resolution management, etc. I think the results speak for themselves, and you can find a few of these images online and merely scanned. The River Ilissos one has been put on quite a few blogs, but wikimedia refuse to allow the images as PD. Xenos2008 (talk) 22:32, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- The US does not adhere to the sweat of the brow doctrine, so the amount of time you invested in colourizing the images is irrelevant. All that matters is the creativity involved. Psychonaut (talk) 22:40, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, this is true for the US. However, I am asserting the copyright under Greek/EU law, which the USA is obliged to respect in principle -- even if the US courts would not reach the same conclusions as Greek courts. Only litigation would resolve that, and it is pointless to discuss it. 85.74.224.205 (talk) 23:00, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- @Psychonaut: the decision you link to speaks of processes of entirely new coloration of previously black-and-white works, which is not what happened here. It also mentions that "mere variations of coloring" are not copyrightable. With all respect towards Xenos' work in fixing up these images, that wording would seem to suggest non-copyrightability in a case like this. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:37, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Please read the entire article. It discusses at some length the Copyright Office's attitude to colourization in general, not just to the new process. Psychonaut (talk) 22:40, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Psychonaut: I did read it. "registration will not be made for [...] the enhancement of color in a previously colored film [...] prohibition on copyright registration based on mere variations of color" seemed pretty clear to me. But whatever, as I said earlier, it's not as if I cared a great deal. If Xenos insists on his copyright claim, I for one have no problem with letting it pass, and in fact I have in the meantime adapted the image tags accordingly. (Btw, Xenos, you said you didn't find an option on Flickr to mark something as PD. I believe the "cc-zero" option is essentially that.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:56, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. As far as I understand, there is a tag CC-zero and no way to insert it! A lot of grumbles over there on forums about it. 85.74.224.205 (talk) 23:02, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Psychonaut: I did read it. "registration will not be made for [...] the enhancement of color in a previously colored film [...] prohibition on copyright registration based on mere variations of color" seemed pretty clear to me. But whatever, as I said earlier, it's not as if I cared a great deal. If Xenos insists on his copyright claim, I for one have no problem with letting it pass, and in fact I have in the meantime adapted the image tags accordingly. (Btw, Xenos, you said you didn't find an option on Flickr to mark something as PD. I believe the "cc-zero" option is essentially that.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:56, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- FP: the legal test of copyright, in both the USA and Europe, hinges on the degree of originality, nature and extent of any alteration to a previous version. This can only be determined by a court, although in US law precedent can be used (as opposed to continental legal systems). Given that there is a very great difference between the scanned images and those I have produced, sometimes taking a great deal of time and learned skills as well as sophisticated software, I am confident that most courts would accept the new copyright. In cases where I have made little contribution other than high-quality scanning, I tag images as PD. Moreover, potentially a Greek court could award copyright and the US refuse to do so; the situation is so complex that there is no point arguing. 85.74.224.205 (talk) 22:50, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- What matters most is what we do at Wikipedia, and again, we are forced to take the most restrictive view for our own protection, which is to allow the claim of copyright when the author has made the claim and it can not be clearly proven otherwise. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 23:24, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Please read the entire article. It discusses at some length the Copyright Office's attitude to colourization in general, not just to the new process. Psychonaut (talk) 22:40, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- The US does not adhere to the sweat of the brow doctrine, so the amount of time you invested in colourizing the images is irrelevant. All that matters is the creativity involved. Psychonaut (talk) 22:40, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- The adjustments made vary widely across the different images, but the time taken ranges from about 90 minutes to 9 hours per image. The techniques I have used are intended to recreate as near to a modern photo as possible, in some cases quite far removed from the published image if there are serious errors in printing. Typically, this involves resetting colours by pixel groups, altering the total colour balance, removing horrible printing mistakes (smudges and overlaps) as well as damage from handling over time, resolution management, etc. I think the results speak for themselves, and you can find a few of these images online and merely scanned. The River Ilissos one has been put on quite a few blogs, but wikimedia refuse to allow the images as PD. Xenos2008 (talk) 22:32, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- Well, in the meantime the images have been relabelled as PD in the USA, which is not correct. They require attribution under CC-by-SA, even if the original scans (which I have not provided) are PD-old. In fact, the original scans are clearly PD in both the USA and the EU, but wikimedia refuse to accept that. (They have also relabelled images over there as PD when they are not.) As far as making a statement that I do not intend to take legal action is concerned, what is the point? It would not stop me from taking legal action later! However, I have no intention of wasting time and money going to court over some images that I have no commercial involvement with. Nor have I ever threatened to do so. 85.74.224.205 (talk) 21:53, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict with Strat)He's emailed BASC - assertingt a claim of copyright should never fall under WP:LEGAL and he should never have been blocked, although I understand that his choice of phrasing may not have assisted in clearing the matter up earlier. I have unblocked him - hopefully more dialogue can sort out the correct tags for the uploaded images. Dennis appears to have hit the heart of the matter here.. Elen of the Roads (talk)
- As I said at ANI, I don't mind the unblock, although he could have been unblocked much faster (and I would never have blocked the account), had he simply made it clear that he had no intent of taking legal action. Glad that's resolved. Dougweller (talk) 04:48, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Not sure why this wasn't raised directly with me, rather than brought straight here. Still, I've finally been invited to the party (: I don't have any further comment since a consensus seems to have been reached here Jimfbleak - talk to me? 05:11, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- I did raise it with you upthread, but as I didn't receive a response after three hours, I thought it best to request a review from an uninvolved party. Normally I wouldn't have done so after waiting so short a time, but Xenos2008 was continuing to dig a hole for himself by evading the block, and as he had a legitimate concern (despite the illegitimate way of expressing it) I felt it important that it be heard. I didn't mean to imply that your block was malicious, only that it was erroneous. —Psychonaut (talk) 11:31, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Not sure why this wasn't raised directly with me, rather than brought straight here. Still, I've finally been invited to the party (: I don't have any further comment since a consensus seems to have been reached here Jimfbleak - talk to me? 05:11, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
On the issue of copyright licences, is there now some agreement that these are simply CC-by-SA? They are certainly not PD-US as currently tagged (because they were not published in the USA) and I do not think they should be tagged as PD-OLD either, although the original simple scans should be that. If the agreement is to accept the asserted copyright status, then perhaps someone could remove the PD-USA tags from various images I uploaded. Thanks. Xenos2008 (talk) 15:47, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- The files aren't tagged as PD-US. They are tagged as CC-BY-SA. However, I mentioned in the file description that the original postcards are PD-US. That is quite true: Things published abroad before 1923 are in the public domain according to US law [6]. US law assigns a copyright status (either copyrighted or public domain) to things even when they have not been published in the US. This status may differ from that in the country of origin, and for our considerations under Wikipedia practice, it's always the US status and not the local status in the country of origin that counts. This is just standard stuff in our treatment of images. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:36, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- (Addition): If what you object to is the {{Do not move to Commons}} tag: I know the language of that tag doesn't fit these cases precisely. The tag is just a practical matter: as long as the files have a "free" license descriptor on them (CC or PD or whatever), somebody will eventually try to move them to Commons. However, for better or worse, Commons has made the decision they don't want them, so if they were moved there now, they'd be subject to deletion again. The tag is just there to avoid the silly trouble of moving them back and forth all the time. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:07, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. No, I don't object to the do not move to Commons tag, this is a good idea. What is a problem is that it says that the images are free in the USA, but this is not correct. The original postcard images are PD, but not these modified images. So, I guess it is not the tag as such, but the descriptor which is misleading. i also think that under US law the postcard images should be PD-old and not PD-US (but this is a detail). The probablity is that people will assume that they can use the images in the USA as being PD (when they are not). Xenos2008 (talk) 21:43, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, but you've lost me here. I really don't see how the description "Original postcard is in the public domain (). Digital enhanced version released under cc-by-sa" contradicts what you just said. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:57, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Since a copyright is being claimed, and PD is not a license, attribution or disclaimer is not required. There is no need nor requirement to even mention PD in the licensing statement, it is superfluous. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 16:58, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
Tobias Conradi: Still community banned?
- Tobias Conradi (talk · contribs)
- TZ master (talk · contribs)
- Royaume du Maroc (talk · contribs)
Which brings me back to the question:
- Does the community consider the Tobias Conradi ban from five years ago to be still in force?
- If so, what does the community want to do with the walled garden of TZ-database-related articles that only these accounts have ever edited (other than as redirects to the actual articles for the cities and countries indicated) at all?
- Tobias Conradi is still banned, yes; that's been reaffirmed in several discussions over the last couple of years. As to what to do with the articles, I'll notify the users who are usually chasing after him, they'll probably have some ideas. But leaving them be is almost certainly not what to do, given the mess that some of his socks (especially TigreTiger) created. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい)
- There was a tremendous amount of disruption he caused between June-August on India geo articles, last thing we need is for him to return now! —SpacemanSpiff 19:57, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- "Return"? From the sockpuppet investigations page, it appears that xe never left. You do know that Royaume du Maroc has been active within the past 12 hours, yes? Uncle G (talk) 06:52, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Well, I haven't exactly followed Tobias' career here, I was only briefly involved when he started working on India geo articles. Quite honestly, I don't know enough about his editing interests to make a judgment call on the above. But I have experienced enough of his disruptive nature to know that he's a net negative. —SpacemanSpiff 08:01, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- "Return"? From the sockpuppet investigations page, it appears that xe never left. You do know that Royaume du Maroc has been active within the past 12 hours, yes? Uncle G (talk) 06:52, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, I think it would probably be pretty obvious if Tobias's ban were lifted. I really doubt such behavior as indicated above is at all likely to change that situation, either. John Carter (talk) 20:03, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
- So what's your view on what to do with the walled garden? Uncle G (talk) 06:52, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- They won't stand as individual articles (what is notable about a time zone anyway?) so just merge them into a "Time in the <country/region>" sort of omnibus article. Blackmane (talk) 08:53, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- So what's your view on what to do with the walled garden? Uncle G (talk) 06:52, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, there's an AfD open on one of the Time-by-state articles: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Time in Illinois. (I don't know anything about the Tobias situation — I was reading other noticeboard stuff and noticed the Time-by-state articles being mentioned.) --Closeapple (talk) 05:52, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Aren't any of the Tobias trackers active currently? —SpacemanSpiff 05:58, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- I guess not. What probably should be done is here to have someone file yet another SPI requeset. While the evidence above is certainly good, I'm not sure in and of itself it is necessarily enough to confirm sockpuppetry. John Carter (talk) 19:26, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Good lord. When he first went crazy and was banned, I never expected him to haunt the joint for the better part of a decade. --Golbez (talk) 19:50, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- I've just noticed this thread. As one of the users who's dealt with his socks before I'm confident they're him and have blocked accordingly. A sleeper check is definitely warranted given the abundance of sleepers in the past and the current gaps in editing from the known socks. Just filing a SPI. Dpmuk (talk) 03:10, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Well, I've unfortunately just encountered this critter. I created some and edited some other "Time in state" articles for the purpose of specifying exactly which counties (or other divisions) are in which time zones. He jumped on it at the same time, apparently prompted by my email to the tz list (on which he is apparently similarly disruptive). For some of them, it was trivial, and originally fit in a couple one-liners in the main Time in the United States article, but others were complex enough to warrant (I feel) their own article. Additionally, this allows space for a map, addressing history and unofficial observances, DST, etc. (see Time in Indiana for an example). Such articles additionally carry the Category:state to make them part of that state's collection of articles, which seems useful. As the only other editor of these, please allow me a few days to clean up what's there before deciding on whether/where to merge. —[AlanM1 (talk)]— 05:59, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Muhammad RfC Close
After closely examining the arguments put forth in each section, we have concluded that the status quo of the Muhammad article should largely be retained. For proposal 1, we found there to be no consensus to put any type of hatnote in the article. In the discussion of question 2, we found that there was the strongest consensus to put a calligraphic depiction of Muhammad in the infobox. With regards to the placement of other figurative images, we found that the current status quo -- of using figurative images of the highest encyclopedic value to illustrate important events in the subject’s life -- had the most support. This was accompanied by a general sentiment that figurative images were not necessary before the “Life” section, but would certainly be necessary after that point. However, editors should remember that calligraphic representations are the most common, and should not add images, especially figurative ones, without a clear encyclopedic reason to do so. Furthermore, there was a clear consensus to avoid any quota of figurative or calligraphic image, and to let the text of the article dictate the images used. There was no consensus for how the principle of least astonishment should apply to Muhammad.
Thank you all for your participation and your patience.
Respectfully, Black Kite (talk), Keilana (talk), and Someguy1221 (talk) 00:57, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
General comment
hatting IP trolling Blackmane (talk) 09:48, 28 May 2012 (UTC) The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. I've been trying to report a broken likt to you folks for nearly an hour now. This is the first place I'[vge found that I can actually send a message. You REALLY need a "report a probolem" link for those of us who have NO idea what the heck is going on. FACs do not help. just wanted to tell you a like is broken, but now I'm not going to. You obviously don't casre! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.169.4.244 (talk) 03:39, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Every article has a talk page connected to it, which you can reach by hitting the "Discussion" tab, and that would have been a good place to report the problem. However, you came here, and managed to leave a message, but forgot to describe where the broken link is. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:26, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- IP decided that we didn't "casre"(sic), so this is just trolling. Hatting. Blackmane (talk) 09:48, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Arbitration motion regarding Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Rich Farmbrough
Resolved by motion that:
FoF 8 (Unblocking of SmackBot) changed to:
Rich Farmbrough has on many occasions, after another administrator has placed a block on his bot account, used his administrative tools to unblock his own bot without first remedying the underlying issue to the blocking admin's satisfaction or otherwise achieving consensus for such unblock (see block logs of SmackBot, Helpful Pixie Bot).
For the Arbitration Committee,
-- Lord Roem (talk) 14:58, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Please note the above statement is false and is subject of a new amendment. Rich Farmbrough, 23:31, 29 May 2012 (UTC).
- You mean "[you contend that] the new finding-of-fact is false and is subject of a new amendment". The statement here - notification that the Arbitration Committee has resolved a finding-of-fact with the wording given - is entirely true. Happy‑melon 23:38, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Indeed, the FoF is untrue, not the fact that it has been adopted. That, sadly for us all, is true. Rich Farmbrough, 02:20, 30 May 2012 (UTC).
- Indeed, the FoF is untrue, not the fact that it has been adopted. That, sadly for us all, is true. Rich Farmbrough, 02:20, 30 May 2012 (UTC).
XfD Topic Ban for User:TenPoundHammer (Again)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Last week there was a proposal at WP:ANI XfD_Topic_Ban_for_User:TenPoundHammer It was rejected - I was one of those that opposed it. However given edits today, I'm re-submitting this.
A thoroughly trivial template replacement is taking place {{TLS-H2}} is to replace {{TLS-H}}. However the templates aren't backward compatible and can't simply be exchanged. No problem, we'll get there eventually. Nothing is even broken in the meantime.
However that's not enough for Hammer. So today, mere days after the ANI thread closes, he's out finding stuff to delete again. Anything will do - even trivial little header templates from a project he shows no previous interest in. No problem though - a quick replacement of the old with the new and nominate the old template for deletion. No need to preview the end results - that's just a content matter, and content isn't important, only the irresistible compulsion to delete something. It might help if the two templates were compatible, and if swapping one for the other didn't break the table headers. It would be even better if Hammer had actually replaced all the uses of this template, rather than still missing one. But that's just the small stuff, and the little people can worry about that. Actually it's not that easy - swapping table columns (as the template replacement needs) is a big time-consuming edit to carry out and check afterwards. It's so much more fun just pressing that XfD button.
For most editors this would just be a goof. Most would even have the grace to be embarrassed about it afterwards. Couple of days after discussion of an XfD topic ban though, this is just too keen to get that deletion fix, and hang the paperwork of checking whether things still work afterwards. An editor this careless should not be left with XfD access. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:50, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Last time I supported, which was painful as I really like Hammer. (Times before, I opposed) What I wish Hammer would do is instead voluntarily take a 3 month break from XfD, and make all these AN reports unneeded. Right now, he is under the microscope in a way that isn't healthy for himself or Wikipedia, and I think the self-imposed break would be the better solution if he would agree to it. Hammer probably isn't liking me too much since the last AN, but I'm suggesting this as a friend and as someone who really respects him, but thinks he needs a break. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 19:00, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- You haven't realized yet that Dingley is the only person putting me "under the microscope"? He clearly has a hate-on for me. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 19:18, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- "he is under the microscope"
- Agreed. And then he still pulls stunts like this. If everyone is watching you, if you can't stop doing it, at least be careful when doing it. Hammer can't even manage that much. Even if he'd realised the pages broke afterwards, then reverted, it wouldn't be a problem. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:51, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Not "everyone" is watching me. You seem to be the only one crying foul most of the time — you are the one who started most of the discussion on me of late. If only one editor seems to have enough of a beef with me to bother making AN threads, then maybe the problem isn't on my end. And again, I was doing other things, so by the time I realized my change to the template had b0rked the format of the page, someone had already reverted me. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 20:09, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- I get your point, and had noticed the apparent animosity and would oppose any action here today as this one event isn't ban-able to me. I didn't vote here because I knew what the outcome would be, it seemed moot. My observation is for the purpose of getting you to pull back a bit for reasons unrelated to this particular event. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 4:26 pm, Today (UTC−4)
- This seems like a simple enough mistake to make. Template X is deprecated and tells you to use Template Y. I see that four pages are still using Template X and as a result, they have big orange boxes on them saying "DON'T USE TEMPLATE X, IT'S DEPRECATED", so I replace it with Template Y, and think that all is well. This seems like a logical chain of thought, though I admit I should've checked my work a little better. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 19:02, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- ETA: I think it's outright ABSURD that anyone would extrapolate that I'm XFDing stuff just because I want to "get that deletion fix". I found that template through navigating a "deprecated templates" category from another TFD. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 19:06, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
The community didn't ban him and he's getting away, this isn't fair I can't keep up. -p - ECx3 What is being asked here ? TPH is under Zero restrictions by the community, so what part of "mere days after the ANI thread closes, he's out finding stuff to delete again." is the problem, do you need a rest, should he slow down for you ? Penyulap ☏ 19:11, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Note Penyulap both participated in and closed the previous discussion, [7], [8]. Unscintillating (talk) 19:31, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- It's the same thing as last time. Dingley has it in his head that I XFD because it gives me power or I have a deletion fetish or something, and cherry-picks any time that I make even the slightest mistake to make me look like I'm a derp and should not edit Wikipedia without supervision. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 19:13, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- I have a deletion fetish or something
- look like I'm a derp
- should not edit Wikipedia without supervision.
- I'd go with all 3 of those.
- Actually I thought last week was a witch hunt, trying to nail you like Al Capone, and I don't hold with that. However if you can't hold it together to make XfD's that don't "look like a derp" just days after you were at ANI, then you either fail WP:COMPETENCE or you give so little of a damn about what ANI thinks of you that you don't even start taking a bit more care when you're under the microscope. I don't know which, but neither are the mark of a careful editor. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:56, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Neither is your tendentious habit of chasing after me and screaming at ANI every time I stray from your image of what makes me a perfect editor. Of course if you only focus on my mistakes, I'm going to seem like a derp, but how many more good edits have I made than bad? Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 20:03, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- ECx3 What is being asked here ? TPH is under Zero restrictions by the community, so what part of "mere days after the ANI thread closes, he's out finding stuff to delete again." is the problem, do you need a rest, should he slow down for you ? Penyulap ☏ 19:11, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Simple editing screw-up, not worth a fuss. (I stuck a note on {{TLS-H}} to make it clear an editor can simply replace it). Nobody Ent 19:21, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Strong oppose: Once again, people confusing bad edits and edits they don't like. pbp 19:40, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- This was a bad edit - it broke stuff, and he walked away from the mess.
- As an edit, I actually like it. It needed doing (manyana), it's just that it's a long and tiresome job to do it correctly and neatly. Hammer shows no inclination towards either "correct" or "neat". Andy Dingley (talk) 19:51, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- The only reason I seem to have "walked away" is because by the time I noticed it farked things up, someone had already fixed it for me. I would've fixed it myself, you know. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 20:03, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- You "could have" done a whole pile of things. In this case you edited four pages to change the template and didn't notice that you'd broken a single one. You hadn't noticed this, not hadn't fixed it, and it's most unlikely you'd have noticed any time afterwards. WDGraham commented at the AfD about an hour later and noted that you'd missed one before tagging the template for deletion. Two hours after this he reverted the changes, as the change was too big to make quickly to use the new template. You didn't edit again for another four hours, here at WP:AN. If you even hadn't noticed the AfD comments, you weren't going to fix these, you weren't even going to look at them again. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:15, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Is it really that big a deal though? The damage was really really really really really minor all things considered. Name one thing I've done that has been ZOMG RED ALERT EVACUATE detrimental to the project. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 20:25, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- WDGraham is a fine editor, but not the best backup, he managed to have an argument with himself on the chinese space station, and thats long before you go anywhere near the ISS talkpage. Penyulap ☏ 20:29, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Comment Do I think it would be less disruptive to Wikipedia if TPH was banned from nominating anything for XfD? Sure. Do I think this discussion will result in that? Very little chance. So until someone else naively decides to start another seemingly toothless RfC let's just move along, and skip the drama. - jc37 19:46, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict × 3)Comment Rather than an XfD ban, I'd rather that TPH show community leadership in using WP:BEFORE. I'd suggest eight weeks, a limit of 2 XfD noms per week, and that the XfDs exhibit good practice as regards WP:BEFORE, where "good practice" is tbd, but subject to review here. This is deliberately loose, but any improvement could lead to long-term good. Unscintillating (talk) 19:57, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- FWIW, the problems are not just with XfD. I see that he still will edit war (this was just two days ago) to restore a speedy deletion tag, even though he has been warned about that behaviour multiple times in the past. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 20:02, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- No one thinks Dingley might be the problem? He seems to be the only one starting threads to bitch at me. It's clear that Dingley has an obsession with trying to run me off the project, and won't stop until his little witch hunt here is successful. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 20:10, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose
DennisI dislike as much as anyone's TPH's remarkably careless and provocative practices with deletion, but so far he has managed to operate just within the community tolerance. There is not going to be support for forcing him to stop working at deletion unless he does something drastically wrong, and this particular instance isn't that example. There is good reason to criticize individual nominations, but the effect of proposals such as this one is to reinforce his ability to continue, by making the opposition to him seem to be overly and unfairly insistent. Longer experience will show you the inadvisability of repeated accusing someone when the incidents are relatively trivial individually. We have a culture which encourage individual eccentricity, and, on balance, we probably gain from it. In the balance between order and anarchy, Wikipedia is rather far towards the side of anarchy--and I think this is not accidental. DGG ( talk ) 20:10, 28 May 2012 (UTC)- I agree that this isn't actionable DGG, and said so above. I like Hammer enough that I wish I could talk him into simply voluntarily taking a break, before carelessness takes that option off the table for him. I do think he is just on the line, which is why it is better than he self-impose a break, before he innocently screws up and the community forces a break upon him. I can see the day coming soon, which is what has me worried. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 20:30, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict)So, if I'm reading everything right, a new TLS-H2 template was created December 2008 and TLS-H stuck with an ugly "deprecated" nag tag in Jan 09 and has been appearing on articles where used until 9:31 today. So for three and a half years wiki-readers have been looking at this baffling tag. I suggest the OP's statement A thoroughly trivial template replacement is taking place is an exaggeration -- it appears a template replacement was not taking place. So today, TPH tries to actually edit the encyclopedia and make it better, and, because he missed something about a 3.5 year old template, is baaaacck in the AN saddle again???Nobody Ent 20:19, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Exactly. Yeah, God forbid I should do anything in good faith. It's not like I accidentally the Main Page or something; I just created a minor table error that was just as easy to fix. Good God, Dingley, are you ever making a mountain out of a molehill. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 20:23, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- There is no "try", there is only make it better or make it worse. This isn't about his intentions in removing a template, it's about his ability (which in this case seems to mean lacking the patience to check whether he hasn't broken anything afterwards). If he can't either do things without breaking them, or at least take the time to see he's broken them and either fix or revert afterwards, then he just shouldn't be doing it. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:27, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Again. You only seem focused on the things I get wrong, which are very minor in number against the things I do right. If you keep cherry picking all my mistakes like this, of course I'm going to come off as incompetent. And even though I admit this was a mistake on my part, it was a.) clearly in good faith, b.) easily reparable, and c.) REALLY FREAKING MINOR SINCE IT WAS ONLY FOUR LOW-TRAFFIC PAGES. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 20:30, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- This is a certain irony in the fact the edit which included If he can't either do things without breaking them, or at least take the time to see he's broken them and either fix or revert afterwards, then he just shouldn't be doing it. deleted another editor's comments. (No worries, I've stuck 'em back in) Nobody Ent 20:37, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Andy notified me of this discussion, I'm guessing because I reverted the edits and raised the issue of the mistake at TfD before this discussion began. I can't speak for any previous incidents, but in the case of TLS-H I am certain that attempting to replace the template was a good-faith mistake rather than anything else, and isn't enough to warrant a trout, let alone a topic ban. --W. D. Graham 20:33, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
XfD Topic Ban for User:Andy Dingley
TPH appears to be under sufficient scrutiny from multiple editors at the current time, Andy Dingley may be able to take a break from this important work for a 3 days. Penyulap ☏ 20:41, 28 May 2012 (UTC)withdrawn as the main drama has been extinguished successfully for now. Penyulap ☏ 21:23, 28 May 2012 (UTC)- WP:POINT. DGG ( talk ) 20:48, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Can we not haz teh drahmaz pleez? We seem to already have plenty of cheeseburgers... - jc37 20:51, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- How's about a close. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 21:06, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.Arbitration motion regarding submission of evidence in arbitration cases
Resolved by motion at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Motions that:
Submissions of evidence are expected to be succinct and to the point. By default, submissions are limited to about 1000 words and about 100 difference links for named parties, and to about 500 words and about 50 difference links for all other editors. Editors wishing to submit evidence longer than the default limits are expected to obtain the approval of the drafting arbitrator(s) via a request on the /Evidence talk page prior to posting it.
Submissions must be posted on the case /Evidence pages; submission of evidence via sub-pages in userspace is prohibited. Unapproved over-length submissions, and submissions of inappropriate material and/or links, may be removed, refactored, or redacted at the discretion of the clerks and/or the Committee.
For the Arbitration Committee,
Seddon talk 19:58, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
1 revert proposal for circumcision
I would like to propose a 1 revert rule limit on the circumcision article. This article has had more edit wars than many other articles which are currently on a 1rr restriction. This edit warring has also been a long term problem stretching back to 2003. The talk page is full of disputes and theres no sign of concurrence anywhere on the horizon. This dispute has carried over to multiple noticeboards and over the past year alone possibly two dozen editors have been involved in some form of dispute about various issues. I have edited thousands of articles, but circumcision is possibly the most extreme example of a WP:BATTLEGROUND page I have seen thus far.
What makes this situation more urgent is the endless debates and RfC's have mostly led nowhere and most editors to the article are completely polarized in their opinions. Some disccusions go on for for weeks and months and at the end there is not an agreement in the slightest. Some of the disputes have escalated into personal attacks and it gets ugly often. There are even edit wars on the circumcision talk page.
A 1rr would be helpful because the page protection will expire in 9 days and the vandals and most aggressive editors will no longer gain a foothold over the article. I think a 1RR restriction is way overdue. Pass a Method talk 20:00, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Support. The ongoing battles are problematic and by limiting the reversions it is hoped that they may confine themselves to discussion on the talk page to reach consensus rather than reverting.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 20:43, 28 May 2012 (UTC) Possiblesupport For how long do you propose this 1RR? I'm inclined to support the idea for 6 months, or another fixed term. I don't like articles to have such restrictions (and never as an indef), but this article would justify the limited use of such restrictions due to the failed WP:DRN (Lack of anyone outside participating) and other issues that have plagued it for some time. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 21:08, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think 18 or 24 months would be good, but any length would be better than none. 6 months is probably too short since the edit warring will just resume afterwards. The history shows fierce edit-warring dating back to 2003. Its best to let an uninvolved admin decide. Pass a Method talk 21:25, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- I would be ok with 18 months if that is what the consensus agreed to. Just not indef, you have to have an end date, then it can be reviewed at that time. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 21:36, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that an indef would be too much. Pass a Method talk 21:40, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- I would be ok with 18 months if that is what the consensus agreed to. Just not indef, you have to have an end date, then it can be reviewed at that time. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 21:36, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think 18 or 24 months would be good, but any length would be better than none. 6 months is probably too short since the edit warring will just resume afterwards. The history shows fierce edit-warring dating back to 2003. Its best to let an uninvolved admin decide. Pass a Method talk 21:25, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Comment can I suggest instead
(or, perhaps, as well)adopting WP:BRD as a requirement for the article? My reasoning is that edit wars at this article often (though not always) involve multiple editors, each of whom make relatively few reverts a day. 1RR would not solve this problem. Nor would it solve the underlying problem of inability to reach consensus: most editors are usually quite willing to engage in discussion as things are, indicating that problems are not arising due to lack of discussion. The real problem that we face is when BRD becomes BRDRDRDRD..., and that could be solved simply by stopping after the first revert, then negotiating consensus. Jakew (talk) 21:30, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- WP:BRD can't be forced so easily, as it is still only an essay (there have been discussions to make it policy, but no consensus). A 1RR is basically a tool that forces editors to follow WP:BRD (ironically), and assuming the admin on call is wise enough to simply revert back and force to the talk page instead of instablocking them, then it works. 1RR isn't "the solution", it is just one tool towards a solution. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 21:36, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- If we can make it de facto policy that editors shouldn't systematically add or remove "British Isles", then surely we can make it policy that BRD should be followed at one article? My concern is that, while 1RR might make a small difference, it comes at the cost of discouraging casual edits (since it's easy to partially revert by accident) and makes ordinary maintenance more difficult. It seems far more sensible to me to actually solve the problem that's causing the edit wars. And the problem occurs when editor A makes an edit, editor B reverts it, editor C reverts that revert, and so on. 1RR doesn't do anything to help this situation (it doesn't even prevent it if editors A and C are the same). To heavily paraphrase, BRD says don't revert a revert unless there's consensus: editor C (and A and B) should discuss instead. That prevents an edit war; in fact, it's impossible to have an edit war if it is followed. Jakew (talk) 08:53, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Enforcing BRD wouldn't change the scenario you mentioned. A third party could still revert before we get to the D part, putting us in the exact same spot. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 14:00, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Okay, then. To try a related idea, can you see anything wrong with the following proposal: i) bold (but sensible) editing continues to be encouraged. ii) any revert (except for standard exceptions like vandalism, etc.) must be accompanied by an explanation detailed enough to understand the problem, preferably on the talk page. iii) editors must not revert a revert, unless consensus exists to do so. iv) where there is doubt, uninvolved admins may be called upon to decide whether there is consensus to apply (iii). Jakew (talk) 09:54, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Enforcing BRD wouldn't change the scenario you mentioned. A third party could still revert before we get to the D part, putting us in the exact same spot. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 14:00, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- If we can make it de facto policy that editors shouldn't systematically add or remove "British Isles", then surely we can make it policy that BRD should be followed at one article? My concern is that, while 1RR might make a small difference, it comes at the cost of discouraging casual edits (since it's easy to partially revert by accident) and makes ordinary maintenance more difficult. It seems far more sensible to me to actually solve the problem that's causing the edit wars. And the problem occurs when editor A makes an edit, editor B reverts it, editor C reverts that revert, and so on. 1RR doesn't do anything to help this situation (it doesn't even prevent it if editors A and C are the same). To heavily paraphrase, BRD says don't revert a revert unless there's consensus: editor C (and A and B) should discuss instead. That prevents an edit war; in fact, it's impossible to have an edit war if it is followed. Jakew (talk) 08:53, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- WP:BRD can't be forced so easily, as it is still only an essay (there have been discussions to make it policy, but no consensus). A 1RR is basically a tool that forces editors to follow WP:BRD (ironically), and assuming the admin on call is wise enough to simply revert back and force to the talk page instead of instablocking them, then it works. 1RR isn't "the solution", it is just one tool towards a solution. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 21:36, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Support per my above statement. Pass a Method talk 05:22, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Note regarding "per nom"--actually this !voter is the nom. On first glance I mistakenly read this as an additional !vote of support of the nom's proposal before I realized that this was not the case. Pass a Method, could I ask you to please change how you have phrased this edit so that others do not make the same mistake I did? Thanks.
Zad68
14:25, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Note regarding "per nom"--actually this !voter is the nom. On first glance I mistakenly read this as an additional !vote of support of the nom's proposal before I realized that this was not the case. Pass a Method, could I ask you to please change how you have phrased this edit so that others do not make the same mistake I did? Thanks.
- Oppose I agree with Pass a Method's characterization of this article as one of the worst WP:BATTLEGROUNDs on Wikipedia. The 1RR idea is well-intentioned but it ends up not addressing the real problem, and advantaging the "side" with the better puppet and/or off-Wiki canvassing campaign, which is an active and important factor here. I need some time to finish the research I need to do to support this, please give me a day or so.
Zad68
14:25, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- I agree it's techincally not the worst place for battlegrounds on Wikipedia, that being articles to do with the Balkans, which is peculiar because that area has never caused any trouble for the rest of the world and its inhabitants have always lived in peace and harmony
- however it is possibly the oddest battleground in terms of the "stakes", which on a rational level, as much as I hate mutilating infants for no reason, are pretty low (I have to accept that most of them turn out not to mind, despite my super-important moral principles) Egg Centric 16:54, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- I agree it's techincally not the worst place for battlegrounds on Wikipedia, that being articles to do with the Balkans, which is peculiar because that area has never caused any trouble for the rest of the world and its inhabitants have always lived in peace and harmony
- Support While I support this I really feel that this should be decided by uninvolved editors/admins. I would even go as far as a topic ban for certain editors and volunteer myself if that helps even things out. Garycompugeek (talk) 14:37, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hi, gary, if you support this proposal can you please highlight support or so it will be easier to count? Thanks. As for an uninvolved admin, yes any admins who have been involved in this article won't be able to close this thread. Pass a Method talk 15:25, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- I meant it seems kind of pointless for regular users who watch the page to vote here however it is interesting to see who votes for this and their explanations. For me I simply feel it will cut down on edit warring in the short term but I still feel that nothing less than a topic ban will be necessary to clear the WP:BATTLEGROUND. Garycompugeek (talk) 17:18, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Gary, as other users have pointed out this might end up at WP:RFAR. But lets wait and see how this plays out. Pass a Method talk 17:25, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- I meant it seems kind of pointless for regular users who watch the page to vote here however it is interesting to see who votes for this and their explanations. For me I simply feel it will cut down on edit warring in the short term but I still feel that nothing less than a topic ban will be necessary to clear the WP:BATTLEGROUND. Garycompugeek (talk) 17:18, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hi, gary, if you support this proposal can you please highlight support or so it will be easier to count? Thanks. As for an uninvolved admin, yes any admins who have been involved in this article won't be able to close this thread. Pass a Method talk 15:25, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose Having given this some more thought, I don't think this is the right solution for the article. It will probably lead to a small reduction in reverts but, as noted above, edit wars at this article tend to involve multiple parties, which it doesn't address. I think it would cause more harm than good. Zad68's observation that this would make off-Wiki canvassing campaigns (which are already problematic) more effective is persuasive, too. Jakew (talk) 15:40, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Semi-protection can be used if there is a large increase in SPA's participating in bad faith ways. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 15:45, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- There hasn't been any recent canvassing so your concerns are invalid. Even if there was canvassing, several editors have the article on their watchlist so it would be easy to deal with. Pass a Method talk 21:23, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Semi-protection can be used if there is a large increase in SPA's participating in bad faith ways. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 15:45, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose - this will do absolutely nothing to fix the underlying problems (which I don't at all deny exist). This page is going to end up at RfA one day because the two sides are never going to agree. This is completely pointless Egg Centric 16:51, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- It would be really interesting to see the article Circumcision end up at WP:RFA, where the community would decide whether the article should be granted admin privileges! Although I think you meant WP:RFAR, request for arbitration.
Zad68
17:07, 29 May 2012 (UTC)- It would get my vote, it's not afraid to cut right to the tip of the issue. Egg Centric 17:30, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Ha a quote worthy of Baseball Bugs. Garycompugeek (talk) 18:44, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- It would get my vote, it's not afraid to cut right to the tip of the issue. Egg Centric 17:30, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- It would be really interesting to see the article Circumcision end up at WP:RFA, where the community would decide whether the article should be granted admin privileges! Although I think you meant WP:RFAR, request for arbitration.
- Support - I've generally stayed far away from this article because of the polarization. This would help stabilize it a bit. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:24, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Support It might calm the inflamed passions over there. AvocadosTheorem (talk) 18:38, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose - The article has a history of off-wiki canvassing of WP:SPAs (some examples) and sock/meatpuppetry by people attempting to push a particular point of view (some examples) and implementing 1RR will play directly into the hands of people involved in sock/meatpuppetry and canvassing. What the article needs more of is an acceptance of Wikipedia's polices and guidelines, especially as relates to tendentious medical articles, and less use as a political tool to propagate one side or another. -- Avi (talk) 20:01, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- There are enough eyes on this article to handle any possible SPA's. Furthermore, very few SPA's have actually edited the article recently so i dont see where you're coming from. Pass a Method talk 20:08, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Then we agree to disagree for now. For what it is worth, I believe there have been Joe Circus attempts in the past three months, but I may be misremembering. -- Avi (talk) 20:38, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Joe Circus has not been seen on the article for ages nor have there been any other recent socks on the article this year. Pass a Method talk 21:04, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Pass a Method, please keep in mind that Avi has access to the checkuser, and according to a user rights report, neither you nor I do... I'll have to go by what Avi says in this area. 21:28, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- ...but I am glad that you agree that we should indeed be concerned about socks of Joe Circus or other banned users editing the article. Thank you.
Zad68
21:33, 29 May 2012 (UTC)- I dont need access to checkuser to notice there hasn't been any new socking this year, because there hasn't according to article history. Pass a Method talk 21:47, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- PaM is correct that JoeC did not attempt to edit Circumcision or its talk page in months (since November 2011, I believe), but he was seen earlier this year trying to get around the block both through open proxies and canvassing. Regardless, this does not affect my opinion that the past history of organized sock/meatpuppetry and canvassing would make this a bad idea. Furthermore, as pointed out below, the issue here is not one of reversions without discussion; there is plenty of discourse. The problem is reversions despite discussions, disagreements on proper implementation of Wikipedia policy and guideline—both global and project—and disagreement on what is considered the best sources to use. Implementing 1RR will not help that issue. -- Avi (talk) 22:41, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Joe socks User:Wimp O'pede and User:Chevara (as well as a number of obvious IP socks) and TipPt sock User:Pyrlights have both edited this year. Jakew (talk) 08:04, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- PaM is correct that JoeC did not attempt to edit Circumcision or its talk page in months (since November 2011, I believe), but he was seen earlier this year trying to get around the block both through open proxies and canvassing. Regardless, this does not affect my opinion that the past history of organized sock/meatpuppetry and canvassing would make this a bad idea. Furthermore, as pointed out below, the issue here is not one of reversions without discussion; there is plenty of discourse. The problem is reversions despite discussions, disagreements on proper implementation of Wikipedia policy and guideline—both global and project—and disagreement on what is considered the best sources to use. Implementing 1RR will not help that issue. -- Avi (talk) 22:41, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- I dont need access to checkuser to notice there hasn't been any new socking this year, because there hasn't according to article history. Pass a Method talk 21:47, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- ...but I am glad that you agree that we should indeed be concerned about socks of Joe Circus or other banned users editing the article. Thank you.
- Pass a Method, please keep in mind that Avi has access to the checkuser, and according to a user rights report, neither you nor I do... I'll have to go by what Avi says in this area. 21:28, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Joe Circus has not been seen on the article for ages nor have there been any other recent socks on the article this year. Pass a Method talk 21:04, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Then we agree to disagree for now. For what it is worth, I believe there have been Joe Circus attempts in the past three months, but I may be misremembering. -- Avi (talk) 20:38, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- There are enough eyes on this article to handle any possible SPA's. Furthermore, very few SPA's have actually edited the article recently so i dont see where you're coming from. Pass a Method talk 20:08, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Support. I think the temptation to revert others is so immediate therer's no other solution. Robert B19 (talk) 20:54, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Comment A few support !votes have comments suggesting 1RR "may confine [editors] to discussion on the talk page to reach consensus rather than reverting," or "would help stabilize it a bit", or "might calm the inflamed passions." My understanding is that 1RR is helpful in situations where editors are simply reverting each other without talking. This is not the case at this article, so the symptoms thought to be behind the reasons given for these !votes aren't matching the real problem. There is a lot of talking--I remember someone researched it and found Talk:Circumcision to be in the top-20 largest article Talk archives out there. What isn't happening is productive talking, which a 1RR won't fix. And as Avi and I have pointed out, off-Wiki canvassing is an issue. 1RR seems like a solution to a different kind of problem than the ones we're having at this article.
Zad68
21:02, 29 May 2012 (UTC) - oppose Per Zad's remarks above which are quite convincing. Having occasionally edited on this article set (but finding the general environment unpleasant), it seems like an accurate assessment. 1RR is not going to really help much here. JoshuaZ (talk) 00:17, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose. I've mostly avoided this article because of the edit-warring, but it's obvious organized groups of people are coming here from outside forums and hoping this restriction will allow them to outnumber all opponents. This "solution" has been crafted specifically to help them. Plot Spoiler (talk) 00:43, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thats nonsense. There hasn't been any canvassing this year and before that was a long time ago. If you're going to come up with a reason to oppose, at least give a reason thats valid today, not one that was valid a few years ago. Remember that all these votes that are irrelevant to today won't be counted unless you give it substance. Pointing to canvassing that took place in 2010 makes your vote null. Pass a Method talk 01:16, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- On the 16th of January I was advised of canvassing at Reddit. User:Therewillbefact was responsible for it. User:Robert B19 admitted to being recruited this way. Jakew (talk) 07:03, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- But there haven't been any actual edits on the article this year though. Pass a Method talk 08:40, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- That's not correct. If we look at Robert B19's contributions (not because I wish to pick on him, but just because we know that he was recruited off-site), he's made eleven article edits. So there is absolutely no doubt that off-site canvassing has resulted in article edits this year. Jakew (talk) 08:55, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- But there haven't been any actual edits on the article this year though. Pass a Method talk 08:40, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- On the 16th of January I was advised of canvassing at Reddit. User:Therewillbefact was responsible for it. User:Robert B19 admitted to being recruited this way. Jakew (talk) 07:03, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thats nonsense. There hasn't been any canvassing this year and before that was a long time ago. If you're going to come up with a reason to oppose, at least give a reason thats valid today, not one that was valid a few years ago. Remember that all these votes that are irrelevant to today won't be counted unless you give it substance. Pointing to canvassing that took place in 2010 makes your vote null. Pass a Method talk 01:16, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose. As noted above, this is a solution in search of a problem. The meat of the problem with the environment of the article is not edit warring by individual editors, but prolonged POV pushing by WP:SPA editors (many of whom either started or became "active" again in 2012) that are POV pushing against established policy and guidelines. I fear this restriction will only encourage a resumption of meatpuppetry that has historically been a problem. Yobol (talk) 01:31, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Can you provide a link to any new SPA's from 21012? Coz as far as i'm aware there haven't been any. Pass a Method talk 06:00, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- What about User:Robert B19? Account created 2012-01-22, and all 64 of his edits relate to circumcision. Jakew (talk) 08:47, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Can you provide a link to any new SPA's from 21012? Coz as far as i'm aware there haven't been any. Pass a Method talk 06:00, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose. The issue here isn't random edit-warring, but as Avi and Zad68 point out, edit-warring by SPA editors who do not understand policy, and are drawn here by off-Wikipedia campaigns. The Wiki article is discussed on several circumcision websites and one of the current editors is viciously attacked on CircLeaks. This measure would be unduly punitive on the limited number of experienced and motivated editors. Ankh.Morpork 08:03, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Like i said above, there haven't been any new SPA edits this year. Also there are several article watchers which mean it won't be a problem. Pass a Method talk 08:36, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Vote tally
- supports - 7 votes
- opposes - 8 votes
Pass a Method talk 06:21, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Alternative proposal to "1 revert proposal for circumcision:" Add minimum edit history restriction
Trying to come up with a creative way to meet everyone's concerns, I propose some additional restrictions to go along with the 1RR:
- After the current full-protect expires, the article should go back to the semi it had before
- The usual exceptions for reverts of obvious vandalism, copyvios, BLP violations, banned users, etc. should be in place
- In addition to the 1RR, there should be a minimum edit history required to edit the article. For example, account creation no more recent than 3 months ago, and a minimum edit count of
500some number of edits in the article mainspace.
I think this would address the concerns about off-Wiki canvassing. I don't think the minimum edit history restriction is technically impossible or unprecedented. Wasn't that considered (if not implemented) for articles in the MMA area? Thoughts?
Zad68
22:29, 29 May 2012 (UTC)- Nope, decent editors should be allowed to get involved from the outset. If for no other than it's an article that causes huge burnout. I think SPAs can be fairly easily dealt with by a "know em when we see em" procedure. I assume you get spam from the nutty IP? Have you ever thought it was a legit user? Egg Centric 22:44, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Zad, your proposal for minimum edits of 500 is pretty crazy. Thats some unprecedented newbie abuse your proposing. If i was you i would strike it out per "WP:Please do not bite the newcomers". Pass a Method talk 23:03, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)The 500-edit redline isn't so "unprecedented" as you may think. See the arbitration notice at Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh for an example. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 00:03, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'm glad you don't think the overall idea of adding an edit history restriction to 1RR is a bad one. Would you please suggest an appropriate minimum number? I noticed that before you had asked me if I support 1RR now (you seem to have removed that in a subsequent edit), and I'd like to answer: Yes, I'm willing to support 1RR. I support the idea of 1RR in general, it is along the same lines as Jakew's proposal that WP:BRD be made policy on this page. I just do not think it will help the problems that we are experiencing at this article. I don't think it'll help. but I don't think it will hurt, either, if we can address the concerns that myself and Avi and others have expressed. What is your suggestion?
Zad68
23:57, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Zad, your proposal for minimum edits of 500 is pretty crazy. Thats some unprecedented newbie abuse your proposing. If i was you i would strike it out per "WP:Please do not bite the newcomers". Pass a Method talk 23:03, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think this proposal carries a lot of merit. On long-term controversial articles, what we want are experienced users that know how to apply policy and guidelines rather than new and inexperienced editors, many of whom are agenda driven WP:SPA editors. Yobol (talk) 01:31, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Support This is the last place we want new editors starting. They would be driven away for sure.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:49, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Need a batch revert
Resolved
User:Mishae began an ill-advised project of removing persondata information from articles, and although I think I've got him to stop, there are more than 60 articles that need to have his edits reverted. I don't use automated tools myself, and I'm about to turn in for the night; is there any way to do a quick revert of the removals? The first one is apparently this, although there are a few other edits mixed in, so a revert of this and all his subsequent edits would be overkill. Deor (talk) 03:21, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- The only tool I know of would be "overkill", but if folks are okay with it, I'll just do it by hand. --joe deckertalk to me 03:34, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- I apparently haven't got him to stop, so if you or anyone else can explain the matter better than I have on his talk page, I'd appreciate it. Deor (talk) 03:38, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think I helped, though my use of rollback may have been ill-advised, so I'll discontinue any further reverts on my part. May need to go through these manually to check that I didn't revert any edits that had constructive additions as well as persondata blanking. Will check into it. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 03:43, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Saw your changes Evanh2008, I haven't looked through them all, but I wouldn't fret the reflist->Reflist changes the editor was making as you go through it. I also see User:Reaper Eternal got some of 'em as well. I'll take a shot at talking to the user in a moment. --joe deckertalk to me 03:45, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Reaper Eternal seems to be doing another pass finding the best version to revert to, I'll head toward the user now. --joe deckertalk to me 03:51, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Saw your changes Evanh2008, I haven't looked through them all, but I wouldn't fret the reflist->Reflist changes the editor was making as you go through it. I also see User:Reaper Eternal got some of 'em as well. I'll take a shot at talking to the user in a moment. --joe deckertalk to me 03:45, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think I helped, though my use of rollback may have been ill-advised, so I'll discontinue any further reverts on my part. May need to go through these manually to check that I didn't revert any edits that had constructive additions as well as persondata blanking. Will check into it. Evanh2008 (talk|contribs) 03:43, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- I apparently haven't got him to stop, so if you or anyone else can explain the matter better than I have on his talk page, I'd appreciate it. Deor (talk) 03:38, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for the help, all. Deor (talk) 12:43, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- In future, this is a problem I can usually fix. Subject to ArbCom of course. Rich Farmbrough, 16:17, 29 May 2012 (UTC).
- In future, this is a problem I can usually fix. Subject to ArbCom of course. Rich Farmbrough, 16:17, 29 May 2012 (UTC).
Need closure or an admin with too much time
Take your pick: either Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Leslie Daigle (2nd nomination), which needs a closer, or Talk:Leslie Daigle, with a ton of edit requests (article, a BLP, is fully protected after edit-warring, fluffing, and attacking). Drmies (talk) 03:36, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Closed in a way that mooted the edit requests. T. Canens (talk) 04:03, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, did I ask a leading question? Thanks! Drmies (talk) 04:09, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
Edit request for WP:Contact us
Resolved
Would some kind admin please edit Wikipedia:Contact us/Article problem/Factual error where it says Leave a message on the article's talk page; accessed by clicking the "discussion" tab when viewing the page. and change "discussion" to "talk", please? That page is fully protected. I would have added a {{sudo}} to the talk page, but it is semi'd so I can't. Thanks for the help. 64.40.57.22 (talk) 05:57, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Fixed it. Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 07:43, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
Thank you. 64.40.57.22 (talk) 08:48, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
The unblock request hangs there for ten days, can someone decide upon it? Max Semenik (talk) 18:13, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yes--thanks for letting us know. Drmies (talk) 20:29, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
Lost another good editor/Admin to a long-term vandal
User:Nev1 has gone, at least for a while, due to a persistent IP hopping vandal, last seen on my talk page celebrating victory. This harassment has been going on for about a year, and it appears there is nothing we can do about it. It's really pretty bad that editors can still be terrorised (really I don't think that's too strong a word) in this way. Dougweller (talk) 18:37, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- People are going to be persistent, and that's the reality and truth. I'm sorry to see him leave, but there is not much anyone can do on an open site like this. This is an environment where any certain action, edit, or comment made at the wrong time (like a block) can lead to years of frustration and harassment by others, and that is especially what all current admins – and admin hopefuls – need to understand and accept. If you cannot, then you should not be an admin, plain and simple. --MuZemike 18:50, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- True - and it's not just our talk and user pages that this person is vandalising, it is articles as well. And if they do it randomly.... Dougweller (talk) 18:52, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- That's complete bollocks. Administrators at least have the privilege of not being harassed by administrators. Malleus Fatuorum 18:55, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- There's exceptions to every rule though .. IJS Chedzilla (talk) 19:09, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Malleus, that may be true but it's also the case that it's because administrators sometimes have to do the dirty work of blocking that they in particular become targets in the way that is less likely for other editors. Though I agree that's what you sign up for as an admin and I'm not asking for anyone to shed tears for the poor corps - least of all its most trenchant critic! Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 19:22, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- What a pile of crap I am reading here, "there is nothing you can do" and "that's the reality and truth". I find not treating people like shit and treat them like people instead and it's a whole new world.
- Malleus, that may be true but it's also the case that it's because administrators sometimes have to do the dirty work of blocking that they in particular become targets in the way that is less likely for other editors. Though I agree that's what you sign up for as an admin and I'm not asking for anyone to shed tears for the poor corps - least of all its most trenchant critic! Kim Dent-Brown (Talk) 19:22, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- There's exceptions to every rule though .. IJS Chedzilla (talk) 19:09, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Granted it's on a planet in a galaxy far far away from wikipedia, but that counts as a new world. Penyulap ☏ 21:04, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Tell that to the long-term vandals and harassers out there. Just as there are many dedicated users who help keep the crap out of Wikipedia, there are just as many dedicated people who treat those same people like crap and make those unfortunate users that dare mess with them the prime targets of their ridicule. --MuZemike 21:14, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- The difference in my approach is I accept the law of the universe called 'cause and effect'. Most other people, dare I say ever editor I have seen so far, doesn't make any connection at all. I have seen whopping great studies into vandalism which entirely miss the point by asking the wrong question. Penyulap ☏ 21:23, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Pen, the problem is that you are a reasonable person. The trolls who harass others into leaving are not. The problem is, we really can't stop them. There are too many ways to get around our blocks, and that's due to Wikipedia's (and the Internet's) open nature. We basically have to rely on them getting bored, or choosing to stop the behavior on their own. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 22:46, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry to say it, and it will certainly fall on deaf ears, but the solution to this is to require registration to edit. It's one thing to throw up one's hands at the drawbacks of the online world, but it's another things altogether to willfully reject the solution to the problem on ideological grounds. We're now one of the most used Internet resources around, but we still act as if we're a lowly start-up which has to allow vandalism and harrasment such as described here just to get the quantity of editors we need to move the encyclopedia forward - but we don't. In fact, since registration would almost immediately drop the volume of vandalism, all those hours spent in anti-vandal work would be able to be put towards actually improving the encycylopedia, instead of just preventing it from degenerating. "The encyclopedia anyone can edit" doesn't have to mean "Anyone who wants to can screw around with us," it can simply mean "Anyone who registers".
But, as I said, tilting at windmills. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:56, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry to say it, and it will certainly fall on deaf ears, but the solution to this is to require registration to edit. It's one thing to throw up one's hands at the drawbacks of the online world, but it's another things altogether to willfully reject the solution to the problem on ideological grounds. We're now one of the most used Internet resources around, but we still act as if we're a lowly start-up which has to allow vandalism and harrasment such as described here just to get the quantity of editors we need to move the encyclopedia forward - but we don't. In fact, since registration would almost immediately drop the volume of vandalism, all those hours spent in anti-vandal work would be able to be put towards actually improving the encycylopedia, instead of just preventing it from degenerating. "The encyclopedia anyone can edit" doesn't have to mean "Anyone who wants to can screw around with us," it can simply mean "Anyone who registers".
- Pen, the problem is that you are a reasonable person. The trolls who harass others into leaving are not. The problem is, we really can't stop them. There are too many ways to get around our blocks, and that's due to Wikipedia's (and the Internet's) open nature. We basically have to rely on them getting bored, or choosing to stop the behavior on their own. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 22:46, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- The difference in my approach is I accept the law of the universe called 'cause and effect'. Most other people, dare I say ever editor I have seen so far, doesn't make any connection at all. I have seen whopping great studies into vandalism which entirely miss the point by asking the wrong question. Penyulap ☏ 21:23, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
Thanks BMK. That we continue to do this despite the pain it costs as well as the loss of good editors suggests to me at least that we have our priorities wrong. Principle over people? Dougweller (talk) 05:13, 30 May 2012 (UTC)- Oh lovely, Malleus is not only using someone's pain here to attack administrators, he is now following me around to do this when I thanked another editor for reverting this vandal on my talk page. Dougweller (talk) 05:17, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
User:Yeah1234? needs to be blocked indefinitely (Vandalism only account)
Hello everyone, i just came across this user account User:Yeah1234? and saw that all of their edits are all disruptive vandalism and trolling when the account was registered on May 25, 2012 (same day). Also the disruptive filter log tells the same thing. So this account would obviously had to be blocked indefinitely but strangely had only been blocked for a week due to which which afterwards the vandal person might come back and disrupt and vandalize Wikipedia again which is prohibited. As all similar types of vandal and troll only accounts are usually indefinitely blocked, this one also needs to be. TheGeneralUser (talk) 20:47, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- JoJan has already blocked for one week. [9] Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 20:58, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- [e/c] (1) And you failed to ask the blocking admin, JoJan (talk · contribs), first before coming here because...? You never know, he might have been able to explain to you that his blocking philosophy is to give a one week block to such accounts to see if they come back with reformed attitudes. If they don't come back, no problem; if they do come back and vandalise, indef. Not everyone's approach, and I might not be phrasing it as JoJan would, but not unacceptable. (2) And you've failed to tell JoJan about this thread because...? @DB, the complaint here is that the block was only one week, not that the account was as yet unblocked. BencherliteTalk 20:59, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- I phrased that badly, meant only to provide the link and admin name, then got distracted. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 22:33, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- I have informed User:JoJan about this thread. It never was and never is my intention to point out anything to them or anyone else. I thought that only those users need to be informed that are involved in any problems/disputes, and i had none problem or query with User:JoJan did i ever mention that in my first edit ? No. I had just asked for the right thing that need to have been done. Apologies to anyone if they got hurt, it never was my intention, i wanted to do the right thing. Thank you. TheGeneralUser (talk) 21:29, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, you informed him after I did. Your complaint was that Yeah1234 hadn't been blocked for long enough. There was no urgency about the situation, as the user was blocked, so your first port of call is not this noticeboard but the admin who blocked for (in your view) too short a time. If you do call an admin's judgment into question in this way on this noticeboard, it's only courteous to tell him. BencherliteTalk 22:07, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- I really apologize again, i never knew that i was making a mistake if you think so. There was no time problem as you might be thinking and i never was calling an administrator's judgement in question. Just that i thought of posting the thread here as it is the most general place to post this types of requests. Please do not have any misunderstanding with me! I will keep in mind the following points you have said for similar future situations. Please understand that i am also a human being and not perfect and i still am learning my way around Wikipedia as it has been only some months that i have been actively editing here. No human being is all round prefect and occasionally makes mistakes (if this was one) and learns from them, i have too. I always try to help the project as best possible as i can. Regards. TheGeneralUser (talk) 22:26, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- There is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning an admin's actions if it is done in a polite way, starting on their talk page. We are not gods to be feared, we are humans no different than you, our votes don't count any more than yours, and we aren't better than you. We just have a few nifty tools and a reasonable amount of experience. If you do have a question, start on the admin's talk page. If that doesn't work, I suggest asking a different admin his opinion next. Then if you have to, you can come here if you think there is a breach of trust (ie: the admin did something actually wrong, like block someone they were in a dispute with). If they give you an answer that you just don't like, we can't fix that. But never be afraid to ask an admin why they did something, as long as you do it proper. If you think that I ever screwed up, I would want you to ask me, so I can either explain it, or if I made a mistake, so I can fix it. Admins shouldn't ever be feared here, and we are accountable for our actions. Just ask nicely on our talk pages first next time. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 22:42, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- I really apologize again, i never knew that i was making a mistake if you think so. There was no time problem as you might be thinking and i never was calling an administrator's judgement in question. Just that i thought of posting the thread here as it is the most general place to post this types of requests. Please do not have any misunderstanding with me! I will keep in mind the following points you have said for similar future situations. Please understand that i am also a human being and not perfect and i still am learning my way around Wikipedia as it has been only some months that i have been actively editing here. No human being is all round prefect and occasionally makes mistakes (if this was one) and learns from them, i have too. I always try to help the project as best possible as i can. Regards. TheGeneralUser (talk) 22:26, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, you informed him after I did. Your complaint was that Yeah1234 hadn't been blocked for long enough. There was no urgency about the situation, as the user was blocked, so your first port of call is not this noticeboard but the admin who blocked for (in your view) too short a time. If you do call an admin's judgment into question in this way on this noticeboard, it's only courteous to tell him. BencherliteTalk 22:07, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- @Bencherlite courtesy is also assuming good faith when a user doesn't notify another editor of a post here. Like It's best to discuss with the blocking admin on their talk page instead of asking pointy questions like you didn't because? Because they didn't know any better. Because the tops of these pages are committee designed wall o' text but the community is too ingrained to streamlined them. You never know, he might have been able to explain to you strikes me as snark, not courtesy. Nobody Ent —Preceding undated comment added 02:19, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- I usually don't block a newbie indefinetely, unless it is really necessary. I try to apply WP:BITE. The vandalism involved was childish, not really hurtful. Maybe this person will come back and I want to give him/her at least the chance to give a positive contribution. If not, then more severe measures can be taken. If another admin disagrees with this policy, then this admin can block for a longer time or even indefinetely. JoJan (talk) 07:44, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Arbitration motion regarding Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Scientology
Resolved by motion that:
The restriction imposed on Jayen466 (talk · contribs) by Remedy 21.1 of the Scientology case ("Jayen466 topic-banned from Rick Ross articles") is hereby lifted.
For the Arbitration Committee, -- Lord Roem (talk) 22:15, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
Requesting another topic ban for User:BruceGrubb
A topic ban was enacted this month for BruceGrubb (talk · contribs) - see Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive235#Requesting a topic ban for User:BruceGrubb. A similar issue has now come up at Conspiracy theory. Since July 2011 BruceGrubb has been using OR, poor sources, or violating WP:UNDUE in an attempt to "rehabilitate" the common understanding of the meaning of the phrase "conspiracy theory" - in this case, aided and abetted by Mystichumwipe (talk · contribs). BruceGrubb's focus on the Christ myth theory and Josephus on Jesus articles explain his interest in changing the common meaning of the term "conspiracy theory", as does Mystichumwipe's focus on rehabilitating Holocaust denial-related theories (see Mystichumwipe's editing history for many examples of the latter). There has never been a consensus for promoting this view on the article, and many lengthy Talk: page discussions opposing his proposed changes; see, for example:
- Talk:Conspiracy theory/Archive 14#Real world conspiracies
- Talk:Conspiracy theory/Archive 15 (the entire archive is devoted to this)
- Talk:Conspiracy theory/Archive 16#Definitions of conspiracy theory
- Talk:Conspiracy theory/Archive 16#"No consensus"
- Talk:Conspiracy theory/Archive 16#The lead
- Talk:Conspiracy theory#“Conspiracy theory” versus “Theory of conspiracy” (again)
- Talk:Conspiracy theory#The broader definition of Conspiracy Theory
Their M.O. appears to be
- Attempt to edit-war in the article changes/re-write (e.g. [10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24][25][26][27][28][29][30][31][32][33][34][35][36][37][38][39][40][41][42][43])
- Be reverted in turn by a wide variety of editors (e.g. [44][45][46][47][48][49][50][51][52][53][54][55][56][57][58][59][60][61][62][63][64])
- Open up lengthy talk page discussions, wait a few weeks until other editors get frustrated or lose interest, then repeat.
By my count, Bruce has now reverted this POV into the article (in various forms) at least 26 times. Mystichumwipe was quite active in reverting in the early days, but is now more cautious, simply supporting Bruce's edits on Talk: or in the article, while letting Bruce do all the actual reverts. After the usual hiatus, Bruce began this edit-warring on the article again yesterday, and eventually got blocked for violating 3RR. I'm proposing a topic ban only on BruceGrubb because a) Bruce has been far more aggressive in his editing, and b) without BruceGrubb to edit-war on his behalf, Mystichumwipe will not be likely to edit-war instead. Jayjg (talk) 01:03, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- I am responding because I received a message about this thread. I had not looked at the Conspiracy theory page (not my topic really) but the effort Jayjg has put into preparing the diffs is impressive. Bruce's edit pattern fits a longer term trend, as suggested above. My experience has been that I have consistently failed to follow Bruce's logic, as many other people have commented. And when he was topic banned on WP:AN, the idea of "source misrepresentation" was mentioned by multiple editors. As a whole, I think Bruce has taken up much time from many people on multiple pages, and nothing constructive has come out of it. The last time Bruce was on WP:ANI (due to complaints about his WP:RSN edit behavior) he volunteered a piece of information that made me understand a few things. My guess is that, sooner or later, Bruce is likely to be indef-blocked for one reason or another. This is just one step along that path. History2007 (talk) 01:45, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- As I said in [[65]] If you haven't looked at ANY of the material in this case why are you wasting our time getting involved? as I said then IMHO it comes off as WP:HOUNDING--BruceGrubb (talk) 08:05, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Comment The wording "has now come up" appears to be disingenuous, as I'm aware from WT:V and WP:Inaccuracy that this is a long-running content dispute involving WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:NPOV. The OP tried to remove an ipso facto case of inaccuracy regarding Conspiracy theory from the WP:Inaccuracy essay after Bruce Grubb mentioned the essay in another context. We'll see if the administrators try to improve the encyclopedia this time, rather than allowing WP:AN to be used to win a content dispute involving a civil editor. Unscintillating (talk) 01:51, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- The history of authorship of the Inaccuracy essay is interesting, as is its youth, failure to be accepted in community arguments, and lack of common discussion in community arguments. There is no reason to believe that this essay is reasonable grounds for editing given these factors regarding the essay. Fifelfoo (talk) 02:49, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Is this what you meant? The page edits seem related, and the edit pattern seems to fit.... History2007 (talk) 02:56, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Given the current version under Conspiracy_theory#Usage_history states "The Oxford English Dictionary records the first use of the phrase "conspiracy theory" to a 1909 article in The American Historical Review.[24][25] Other sources pre-date this use by nearly four decades..." which is simply a rewording of my version, History2007 is clearly blowing smoke as they did in [[66]].
- Is this what you meant? The page edits seem related, and the edit pattern seems to fit.... History2007 (talk) 02:56, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- As for Fifelfoo smoke here the points they are contesting:
- "It should be noted just because sources are in conflict does not mean that one or more has to be inaccurate. They can be portraying the subject from different POVs and be essentially accurate within their respective points of view."
- "If the sources differ significantly in time it is advisable to do more research to determine if a change in meaning or view has occurred."--BruceGrubb (talk) 06:12, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
As Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive718#Mystichumwipe_and_conspiracy_theories_.282.29 shows Jayjg has used this board before in an attempt to censor an editor he didn't like and I was involved here in that mess too. This IMHO is another WP:GAME effort to get their way and it is tiresome.--BruceGrubb (talk) 05:51, 30 May 2012 (UTC)- Support topic banning BruceGrubb from Conspiracy theory and from articles connected with conspiracy theories, broadly construed. Fifelfoo (talk) 03:06, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Rebuttal - Given Fifelfoo shutting down of a topic on the RSN board after only three hours in what IMHO was an attempt to short circuit any meaningful discussion on the topic and throwing around IMHO frivolous claims of disruption here (see [[67]] I think this is an example of possible Wikipedia:Harassment via Wikipedia:Wikilawyering and WP:GAME rendering their comments on this matter moot.--BruceGrubb (talk) 06:30, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Support a more general ban on "fringe theories" (given other cases, e.g. the revert cycle here) if suitable characterization can be found because those are where the editor's less productive actions seem to take place. History2007 (talk) 03:10, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Rebuttal Given in [[68]] History2007 admitted "I have not looked at any of the sources discussed here" I would say that unless they have evidence in this case this topic their comments are worthless and it seems to be another possible example of Wikipedia:Harassment via Wikipedia:Wikilawyering and WP:GAME especially when I have the support of Mystichumwipe, Mystylplx (who stopped doing anything in April) and even Nuujinn(Talk:Conspiracy_theory/Archive_16#Definitions_of_conspiracy_theory.
- Also note the OP's (Jayjg) brow beating of other editors in Talk:Conspiracy_theory/Archive_16#.22No_consensus.22 arguing for a consensus that as Mystylplx pointed out no longer existed. who later on stated "I count four in favor in the discussion. Myself, BruceGrubb, mystichumwipe and Rklawton. Wikipedia is not a democracy." (Mystylplx (talk) 23:24, 6 November 2011 (UTC))--BruceGrubb (talk) 06:53, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Support. A more general ban on fringe theories (conspiracy theories and revisionist histories) seems necessary. --Loremaster (talk) 03:54, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Rebuttal--Considering you did only a minor edit after Mystichumwipe [[69]] you established consensus for MY version: "Any edit that is not disputed or reverted by another editor can be assumed to have consensus." (WP:CONS) your comment here makes no sense--unless you don't fully understand that part of consensus.--BruceGrubb (talk) 06:53, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Comment - Can we suggest other sanctions to impose other than a topic ban? Personally, I would suggest two things. A strict imposition of 1RR on BruceGrubb for all articles in main space: the edit wars are just too much. And a strict adherence to WP:CIVIL in talk pages and edit summaries. He is well known to use phrases like "DEAL WITH IT!" and "<user> went crying to the noticeboard to win a dispute". If he could express his views without so much emotion attached, I think people would be more likely to take him seriously. Elizium23 (talk) 05:26, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Comment - given [[70]] I think we can take anything Fifelfoo and History2007 say with a grain of salt. Their continual involvement against me in articles they are not even involved in (such as this one) boarders on violations of Wikipedia:Harassment via Wikipedia:Wikilawyering and WP:GAME. I have already pointed out my federal recognized disability (Hyperkinesis aka ADHD] here on this board and my yelling in all caps is demonstrated of frustration at the community letting things get to the level of [[71]] while banning perfectly good administrators like User:Will_Beback/Barnstars for which on the surface appears by comparison to be very minor infractions.--BruceGrubb (talk) 05:51, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Comment - Bruce, I strongly recommend that you read WP:HA#NOT (part of the harrassment policy) and WP:Wikilawyering#Misuse of the term, because your repeated citation of these terms seems to reveal an incomplete understanding of their application. Elizium23 (talk) 06:51, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Rebuttal read WP:HOUND: "Wikihounding is the singling out of one or more editors, and joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. [...] Many users track other users' edits, although usually for collegial or administrative purposes. This should always be done carefully, and with good cause, to avoid raising the suspicion that an editor's contributions are being followed to cause them distress, or out of revenge for a perceived slight." Given in [[72]] History2007 in stated "I have not looked at any of the sources discussed here" I think per WP:DUCK I have per WP:HOUND the right to point out possible WP:GAME issues with some involved editors. --BruceGrubb (talk) 07:14, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- As I stated at the beginning, I received a message asking for me to comment here. Leave it at that. History2007 (talk) 07:58, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Support Seems to have no understanding of WP:FRINGE or WP:UNDUE and argues interminably, tiring out other users. Mathsci (talk) 07:41, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Rebuttal This quote is straight from Oxford University Press reference I am using in my version:
conspiracy theory n (1909) the theory that an event or phenomenon occurs as a result of a conspiracy between interested parties. Originally a neutral term, but more recent usage (dating from around the mid 1960s) is often somewhat derogatory, implying a paranoid tendency to see the hand of some malign covert agency in any unexplained event. The derivative conspiracy theorist is first recorded in the 1960s — Example — 1975 New York Times: Conspiracy theorists contend that two of the men have strong resemblances to E. Howard Hunt Jr. and Frank A Sturgis, convicted in the Watergate break-in.
- Kindly explain given the parts that I have bolded just what I don't understand about WP:FRINGE or WP:UNDUE and while you are at it explain this edit [[73]] where I expressly state in the editor comment "often not sometimes. Let's admit that the majority of the time it is used negatively". Given some of the comments here, I have to ask how many of the editors coming here actually went to the Conspiracy theory article to see what the sam hill was going on?--BruceGrubb (talk) 08:05, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Interjection: Bruce, what does "rubutle" mean? Did you mean "rebuttal"? Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:19, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- This thread is about user edit behavior, not content. Long content based discussions are not really needed here. And of course, the issue of WP:Walls of text had been brought up in previous discussions. History2007 (talk) 08:10, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Comment History2007, you came here without doing any research and made comments effectively blind. Talk:Conspiracy_theory/Archive_16#Definitions_of_conspiracy_theory shows that there at least one time a more neutral definition of conspiracy theory existed and conspiracy theory in that context is being looked at again a point continually ignored by the OP in what several of the editors on the talk page have viewed as an effort to POV the article. When a lead that has Oxford University Press, Edinburgh University Press, Ashgate Publishing, Peter Lang, and Wiley-Blackwell backing up its statements is being reverted or called WP:FRINGE or WP:UNDUE I have a right to call the editors making these claims out on the carpet for it.
Also please stop using WP:WALLOFTEXT as short hand for WP:TLDR; they are not the same thing. As the second essay notes "A common mis-citation of this essay is to ignore the reasoned and actually quite clear arguments and requests for response presented by an unnecessarily wordy editor with a flippant "TL;DR" in an attempt to discredit and refuse to address their strongly-presented ideas and/or their criticism of one's own position. This is a four-fold fallacy: ad hominem, appeal to ridicule, thought-terminating cliché, and simple failure to actually engage in the debate because one is supposedly too pressed for time to bother, the inverted version of proof by verbosity."--BruceGrubb (talk) 08:32, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- I am going stop now, given that I just said this thread is about "edit patterns" not "content" and received a response about content. Regarding your statement that "you have to ask what really is going on?"... who knows, may be it is a cons... Let me not even finish that. I will stop now. History2007 (talk) 08:39, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Support topic ban as a minimum per the above examples of sustained edit warring on this issue. The extraordinary badgering of editors here (which may well be an attempt to generate a WP:CHUNK) and unjustified claims of harassment indicates that there are some more significant behavioral issues though. Nick-D (talk) 08:45, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- I've just remembered that I (and several other editors) have been involved in a content dispute with Bruce in the World War II article recently. The relevant talk page thread is here, and Bruce started a discussion at WP:RSN which is archived here. His content in relation to this topic (he's arguing that a World War II-era American propaganda movie should be used to reference a view that the war started in 1931, and has kept on doing so despite a near total lack of support for this position - complete with all caps shouting initially) appears similar to that on conspiracy theories. As such, I think that we may need a bigger picture solution here. Nick-D (talk) 08:59, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Rebuttal I would like to again mention that the RSN for Is Why We Fight series reliable source for views of US 1942-1945? was archived by an involved editor against the idea after in just over three hours effectively short circuiting any meaningful discussion on the topic. As I said after I unarchived it and works by the University Press of Kentucky, University of North Carolina Press, Columbia University Press, and Psychology Press were produced supporting my contention the work was reliable "If anyone of us editors could close of a thread whenever the mood hit us then RSN would NOT have any meaning and issues of WP:GAME would pop up like ducks in a shooting gallery."--BruceGrubb (talk) 09:38, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- BruceGrubb was topic banned from Christianity topics for a long-term pattern of disrupting discussions with "Ididnthearthat"-style behaviour and pushing of fringe ideas. A few weeks later he was back here at the noticeboards, and there was a consensus that he had been disrupting a discussion about WWII with just the same kind of behaviour. Now he's showing that same behaviour on yet another, unrelated discussion. This does not seem to be topic-specific, but a more deep-seated problem with BruceGrubb's approach to disputes in general. In this sense, we might need to resort to blocks (starting medium-length and then quickly escalating) rather than topic bans. Or a general "parole" kind of personalized discretionary sanction (i.e. any admin can quickly topic-ban him from any new discussion on the first signs of disruption). At this time, I'd be prepared to make a start with a block. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:17, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Rebuttal evidence outside of Prelude to war as well as evidence regarding reliability for the context within the limited constraints expressly stated (ie US views of 1942-1945) has been ignored. University Press of Kentucky, University of North Carolina Press, Columbia University Press, and Psychology Press all show the Prelude to War was possible reliable for the context I want to use it in but any meaningful discuss of those source was short circuited the continual archiving in what IMHO comes of as WP:GAME. The Sept 18, 1931 date as a possible start for WWII had been noted in other even more reliable sources and yet this NPOV fact is not in the current version.
- "While some historians argue that the war started on 18 September 1931 when Japan occupied Manchuria..." Cheng, Chu-chueh (2010) The Margin Without Centre: Kazuo Ishiguro Peter Lang who is referencing Ghuhl, Wernar (2007) Imperial Japan's World War Two Transaction Publishers pg 7. Last time, I checked Peter Lang and Transaction Publishers were not considered fringe publishers. How much we give to that position is a WP:WEIGHT issue not WP:FRINGE one.--BruceGrubb (talk) 09:38, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
A recent software change causes untruths in old entries in editing histories.
- For example, in http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_spectroscopy&offset=&limit=500&action=history , the oldest 3 edits are shown as "(empty)", but actually they have text content. The "(empty)" should be replaced by "(unknown)", for edits made before page length was recorded in edit histories. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:23, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Same problem here. Can someone who knows how bugzilla works please file a bug? Jenks24 (talk) 07:16, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Stray checkboxs appearing near users blocked status
Any other admin seeing a stray checkbox in the red block log at the top of this page and the users contribs page? The checkbox is clickable, but doesn't seem to correspond to anything else on the page. Did I miss a new admin feature, or is this a question for WP:VPT or a bug for bugzilla? 7 05:27, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Bugzilla and/or Village Pump. I seem to recall hearing about this in a different context, and an admin who checked the box supposedly blocked himself. So, um...probably best not to play with it. Risker (talk) 05:30, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks Risker - will log there. I couldn't resist clicking and didn't block myself, but the day's not over yet. 7 05:31, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Bug 37208 logged. 7 05:39, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- This appears for me on MediaWiki.org, so it's not unique to this project.--Jasper Deng (talk) 05:42, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Bug 37208 logged. 7 05:39, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks Risker - will log there. I couldn't resist clicking and didn't block myself, but the day's not over yet. 7 05:31, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- This probably appeared because checkboxes were added to the deletion log to allow quickly revdeleting entries of the log. Of course, on user pages and contribution lists it makes no sense to have it there. Jafeluv (talk) 06:50, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Restoring
Hello. Please restore my user page. Thanks. --Elmju (talk) 07:05, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Done. Jenks24 (talk) 07:09, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Quick question
Hi, I just deleted The Odd Saga of the American and a Curious Icelandic Flock as an expired PROD and stumbled across User:DM232/sandbox, which redirects to the deleted page. Should the userspace redirect be deleted (I note that user space is exempt from G8)? Cheers, Jenks24 (talk) 07:13, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- I personaly would have deleted as housekeeping in particular as the creator of the redirect is not the user himself but an admin who fixed a cut and paste move (see also backlinks). But you could always alert Anthony to delete it himself. Agathoclea (talk) 07:51, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, but you've lost me here. I really don't see how the description "Original postcard is in the public domain (). Digital enhanced version released under cc-by-sa" contradicts what you just said. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:57, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. No, I don't object to the do not move to Commons tag, this is a good idea. What is a problem is that it says that the images are free in the USA, but this is not correct. The original postcard images are PD, but not these modified images. So, I guess it is not the tag as such, but the descriptor which is misleading. i also think that under US law the postcard images should be PD-old and not PD-US (but this is a detail). The probablity is that people will assume that they can use the images in the USA as being PD (when they are not). Xenos2008 (talk) 21:43, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- (Addition): If what you object to is the {{Do not move to Commons}} tag: I know the language of that tag doesn't fit these cases precisely. The tag is just a practical matter: as long as the files have a "free" license descriptor on them (CC or PD or whatever), somebody will eventually try to move them to Commons. However, for better or worse, Commons has made the decision they don't want them, so if they were moved there now, they'd be subject to deletion again. The tag is just there to avoid the silly trouble of moving them back and forth all the time. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:07, 28 May 2012 (UTC)