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:::Using low quality bias sources is against MEDRS. Confirmed bias sources are not high quality sources. [[User:QuackGuru|<font color="vermillion">'''QuackGuru'''</font>]] ([[User talk:QuackGuru|<font color="burntorange">talk</font>]]) 17:33, 21 January 2016 (UTC) |
:::Using low quality bias sources is against MEDRS. Confirmed bias sources are not high quality sources. [[User:QuackGuru|<font color="vermillion">'''QuackGuru'''</font>]] ([[User talk:QuackGuru|<font color="burntorange">talk</font>]]) 17:33, 21 January 2016 (UTC) |
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::::The RFC question specifically was talking about <b>a section in MEDRS dealing with High quality sources and never mentioned low quality sources</b>. Regardless of low quality sources, can you address why the close was wrong when closing on <b>High quality sources</b> without going off topic into low quality ones and rearguing the RFC? [[User:AlbinoFerret|<span style="color:white; background-color:#534545; font-weight: bold; font-size: 90%;">AlbinoFerret</span>]] 17:41, 21 January 2016 (UTC) |
::::The RFC question specifically was talking about <b>a section in MEDRS dealing with High quality sources and never mentioned low quality sources</b>. Regardless of low quality sources, can you address why the close was wrong when closing on <b>High quality sources</b> without going off topic into low quality ones and rearguing the RFC? [[User:AlbinoFerret|<span style="color:white; background-color:#534545; font-weight: bold; font-size: 90%;">AlbinoFerret</span>]] 17:41, 21 January 2016 (UTC) |
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:::::MEDRS should not be used as a platform to include bias sources in articles. A high-quality is not from a country of origin that is known to be bias. [[User:QuackGuru|<font color="vermillion">'''QuackGuru'''</font>]] ([[User talk:QuackGuru|<font color="burntorange">talk</font>]]) 17:51, 21 January 2016 (UTC) |
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== [[Draft:Cannabis dispensary]] page move == |
== [[Draft:Cannabis dispensary]] page move == |
Revision as of 17:52, 21 January 2016
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Administrative discussions
Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1156#Boomerang_topic_ban_proposal_for_User:Hcsrctu
(Initiated 48 days ago on 9 May 2024) Ratnahastin (talk) 03:35, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
{{not done}}
Ratnahastin; ANI reports that have been archived will not be closed. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:06, 9 June 2024 (UTC)- Restored the request because AirshipJungleman 29 has refused to clarify his above misleading response.[1] Ratnahastin (talk) 04:15, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Block_review_User:Jamiesonandy
(Initiated 11 days ago on 15 June 2024) Most participants believe that there is consensus around the issue(s) at hand. Likely to be unarchived if it is archived by a bot. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 16:20, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Riposte97: time sink
(Initiated 4 days ago on 22 June 2024) Obvious consensus has formed for a community imposed topic ban from "Indigenous peoples of North America, broadly construed". Admin close required. TarnishedPathtalk 09:49, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
- Closed by editor ScottishFinnishRadish. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 20:07, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
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Requests for comment
Talk:Brothers of Italy#RfC on neo-fascism in info box 3 (Effectively option 4 from RfC2)
(Initiated 79 days ago on 8 April 2024) Clear consensus for change but not what to change to. I've handled this RfC very badly imo. User:Alexanderkowal — Preceding undated comment added 11:50, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: The RfC tag was removed the same day it was started. This should be closed as a discussion, not an RfC. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:03, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
Talk:Mukokuseki#RfC on using the wording "stereotypically Western characteristics" in the lead
(Initiated 76 days ago on 11 April 2024) ☆SuperNinja2☆ TALK! 09:41, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- See Talk:Mukokuseki#Close Plz 5/21/2024 Orchastrattor (talk) 20:34, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
Talk:Climate_change#RFC:_Food_and_health_section
(Initiated 70 days ago on 17 April 2024) This was part of DRN process (Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_245#Climate_change). It is ready to be closed [2] [3]. Bogazicili (talk) 18:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
RFA2024, Phase II discussions
Hi! Closers are requested for the following three discussion:
- (Initiated 55 days ago on 2 May 2024) Administrator recall
- (Initiated 52 days ago on 5 May 2024) Designated RfA monitors
- (Initiated 52 days ago on 5 May 2024) Reminder of civility norms at RfA
Many thanks in advance! theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 04:27, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
If re-requesting closure at WP:AN isn't necessary, then how about different various closers for cerain section(s)? I don't mind one or two closers for one part or another or more. --George Ho (talk) 17:39, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 440#RfC: RFE/RL
(Initiated 50 days ago on 7 May 2024) Archived Request for Comment. 73.219.238.21 (talk) 23:32, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Weather#Discussion -- New Proposal for layout of Tornadoes of YYYY articles
(Initiated 47 days ago on 10 May 2024) RFC outcome is fairly clear (very clear majority consensus), however, a non WikiProject Weather person should close it. I was the RFC proposer, so I am classified too involved to close. There were three “points” in the RFC, and editors supported/opposed the points individually. Point one and three had 3-to-1 consensus’ and point two had a 2-to-1 consensus. Just need a non WP:Weather person to do the closure. The Weather Event Writer (Talk Page) 14:39, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
Talk:Yasuke#RfC:_Should_the_view_that_Yasuke_was_a_samurai_be_added_to_the_article
(Initiated 36 days ago on 21 May 2024) It's a bit buried in a header designed to group similar discussions together (because there have been so many of them). I would like to request an experienced or admin closer, as this page has had a lot of new or WP:SPA accounts on it recently, so some more advanced weighting of the consensus here may be necessary. Loki (talk) 21:57, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/2024 review/Phase II/Discussion-only period#Early close
(Initiated 26 days ago on 31 May 2024) Since it's an injunctive discussion, I was hoping someone could step in and close after I withdrew my own. Thanks! theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 07:26, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
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Place new discussions concerning XfDs above this line using a level 3 heading
Other types of closing requests
Talk:Anti-Normanism#Requested move 22 May 2024
(Initiated 35 days ago on 22 May 2024). Should be closed by an uninvolved admin.--Berig (talk) 07:47, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
- Hi @Berig, does it really need an admin? Tom B (talk) 04:58, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
- After looking at it, I can see why an admin was requested, Tom B (talk) 14:52, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
- Closed by editor S Marshall. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. put'er there 20:03, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Notifying_Wikiprojects_and_WP:CANVASS
(Initiated 29 days ago on 28 May 2024) Latest comment: 3 days ago, 79 comments, 37 people in discussion. Closing statement may be helpful for future discussions. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:29, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
Talk:Srebrenica massacre#Requested_move_2_June_2024
(Initiated 24 days ago on 2 June 2024), then relisted 10 June, Tom B (talk) 09:51, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Dani Cavallaro
(Initiated 22 days ago on 4 June 2024) A formal closure would be helpful to solidify consensus for future reference. Thanks! —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 15:42, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
Place new discussions concerning other types of closing requests above this line using a level 3 heading
Standard offer request for Bazaan
Hello,
I am passing along a Standard offer unblock request from Bazaan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). This request was sent to UTRS. The user has requested that the content of the unblock request be forwarded to the noticeboard. The relevant content is as follows:
I agree to another Standard Offer if necessary, although it would be the second time. I would like the content of my unblock request to be forwarded to the noticeboard. I promise to never repeat the behaviour which led to my initial block, and the subsequent indefinite block.
Why do you believe you should be unblocked? It's been six months, please give me another chance. At least give me a rope.
If you are unblocked, what articles do you intend to edit? Most South Asian, but wide ranging
Why do you think there is a block currently affecting you? If you believe it's in error, tell us how. I purposefully brought a sock puppetry ban on my account. It's my fault. I have suffered enough, including tremendous personal attacks.
Is there anything else you would like us to consider when reviewing your block? Plenty of accounts have been blocked in my name, although most aren't mine.
The ones used by me are Bazaan, Rainmaker23, Uck22, JKhan20 and Merchant of Asia.
The user has not received any additional blocks on the account and is therefore tentatively eligible for Standard Offer consideration. Thanks, Nakon 01:23, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
- See Sockpuppet investigations/Bazaan. BMK (talk) 01:46, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
- There were issues concerning Bazaan and his or her socks other then sockpuppetry itself, which the editor doesn't mention. Search on "Bazaan" in the noticeboard files. I'd like to hear what the editor has to say about that behavior. BMK (talk) 01:52, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
- I've modified Bazaan's block to permit him to edit his talk page: if we're willing to consider unblocking someone, the situation isn't so bad that talk access should remain disabled, and it's easier if the user can post messages on his own talk page instead of relying on UTRS assistance. Nakon, would you mind sending Bazaan an email asking him to make further replies on his talk page? Nyttend (talk) 02:31, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
- I've sent User:Bazaan an email update regarding their talk page. Thanks, Nakon 02:34, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
- Apart from the sockpuppetry, there was some copyright issues way, way back. Is there anything else, from a content perspective, that would merit a conditional unblock? By which I mean, an "unblock conditional on an acceptance of a topic ban in articles relating to XYZ." Blackmane (talk) 06:01, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
- Comment - I may be unusually strict, but I oppose any sort of standard offer when there has been sockpuppetry/ I don't think that anyone who has engaged in sockpuppetry can be trusted at their end, at least not until the twenty-second century. That is my opinion. It just reflects a distinction between editors who make mistakes and editors who choose to game the system. I know that other editors are more forgiving than I am, and I am very forgiving of flaming, but not of sockpuppetryl Robert McClenon (talk) 06:48, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
- Further note from Bazaan's talk page:
This was left as an unblock request, which I've declined because it wouldn't be right for me to unblock him as this discussion's still ongoing. It was a procedural decline (don't think of it as a frivolous request), and I've asked him to use {{helpme}} when writing future comments for this discussion. Nyttend (talk) 13:40, 9 January 2016 (UTC)I am responding to issues raised in ANI. I again commit myself to never repeating the behavior which caused my indefinite block. In 2013 and 2014, I had differences with a few editors of WP:Bangladesh, which unfortunately swelled into a rather traumatic cycle of personal hostilities. This included pointless edit wars and conflicts over what pictures to be placed in what article. The absence of Wikipedia administrative or arbitration personnel caused the situation to deteriorate further. Initially when I joined Wikipedia around 2007, I was much younger and faced several issues like copyright infringement. But I now have a stronger understanding of Wikipedia policies. I believe I have matured over time. My contributions were never questioned for pushing an unacceptable POV, but a few people at times disagreed with its relevance. However, I used reliable and credible references. If my editing privileges are restored, you will not see any dramatic rise in editing activity. If there are any issues, it will be brought to either DRN or ANI. I've learnt my lesson truly well. I don't deserve a topic ban as I never had serious content disputes. It was mostly personal attacks over pictures and relevant sentences. Lastly regarding sockpuppetry, please have a look at the first investigation. As one administrator notes, he didn't even consider what happened to be sockpuppetry. I opened a second account after being blocked. My mistake. I have always made good faith contributions. Never in bad faith of gaming the system.
- Bazaan writes "I believe I have matured over time", but he also writes "The absence of Wikipedia administrative or arbitration personnel caused the situation to deteriorate further" and "I don't deserve a topic ban as I never had serious content disputes. It was mostly personal attacks over pictures and relevant sentences." These don't appear to me to be the statements of someone who has "learnt [their] lesson truly well", as they are still blaming others and not taking responsibility for their actions. And for an editor who used multiple sockpuppets to write "Lastly regarding sockpuppetry, please have a look at the first investigation. As one administrator notes, he didn't even consider what happened to be sockpuppetry. I opened a second account after being blocked. My mistake." is not acceptable. Perhaps we can accept that one sockpuppet was a "mistake", but what about the other three they admit to? (That's assuming we can take their word that other accounts which were blocked as theirs were incorrectly identified.) I'm not yet closing the door on this, but, at least so far, I do not find the editor's comments to be persuasive. BMK (talk) 00:43, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
- Although I'm often in agreement with BMK's opinions, in this case I do believe a few of Bazaan's statements are somewhat excusable. Articles about the sub continent can be very contentious considering articles about India and Pakistan ended up at Arbcom. Perhaps Bangladeshi articles should fall into that category given the nation's history with India, but that's a discussion for another page. The sockpuppetry issue is certainly of concern. Perhaps a quick check by a CheckUser would alleviate this concern. [Iff] no socking is revealed in the last 6 months, I could probably support a conditional unblock. Bazaan has admitted to having issues in Bangladeshi articles in the past and letting him back into this area may not be healthiest. If no socking is revealed, then I could support an unblock provided a 3 month topic ban from Bangladeshi articles is levied to encourage Bazaan to edit somewhere else so the community could regain some confidence and to truly prove that he has "matured over time". However, if socking is revealed within the last 6 months, then the offer is off the table. Blackmane (talk) 05:29, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
- I have similar concerns to Blackmane; given how controversial such articles can be, and the past troubles this editor has had while editing them,
Most South Asian, but wide ranging
doesn't seem the best space to dive straight back into. Perhaps a 3-month topic ban from all sub-continent / South Asian articles would be a good place to start? GoldenRing (talk) 11:12, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
- oppose unblock - I had edited with him and I would say that it was a bad experience. Yes he has evaded his block enough times for like a year, I can see that some of his nationalistic edits on Bangladesh subjects had been removed, a few more are still left to be checked. You need to read his unblock request, "My contributions were never questioned for pushing an unacceptable POV" or "I opened a second account after being blocked" and "I have always made good faith contributions. Never in bad faith of gaming the system"[4] tells that he rejects that he was totally wrong with his blatant policy violations that he has made, which includes vandalism and block evasion. How he can be trusted with this? I understand that I had socked too but blaming others or failing to accept it is not good. Capitals00 (talk) 03:57, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose unblock - this is a historically highly disruptive user. Normally I'm quite lenient with supporting standard offers, but this is not a case of an editor going off the deep end one time and then seeing the error of their ways. Here we have an editor who was indef'd for outright vandalism who attempted to abuse a process to erase their history, and then socked through their siteban for almost another full year. That behaviour ended less than a year ago, and I don't think we should even be considering the standard offer until at least that much time has gone by. Call it punitive, whatever: I do think a very strong message needs to be sent to this user. Nevertheless, I have a proposal: that Bazaan be conditionally unblocked, under the conditions that they are indefinitely topic banned from any topics related to Bangladesh, broadly construed, and may not operate more than one account for any purpose; conditions may be appealed after no less than one year. They are encouraged to contribute constructively in other areas and to follow all content and behavioural guidelines during this time. (Non-administrator comment) Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 23:16, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose unblock as requested Several of the requesters statements seem to indicate that they do no realize which behaviour of theirs was disruptive. Capitals00 has gone over some of those statements. I would not oppose a conditional unblock that involves a topic ban from areas this user was disruptive in in the past. HighInBC 23:21, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support unblock, and accept standard offer, though only with close scrutiny, and the understanding that if he even so much as leaves a major edit marked as minor, would be enough for a total site ban. Besides that, I sensed a of ring of truth and sincerity that gave me a rather brief reprieve, but just enough to give him another chance, but only ONE chance.. after this, this is it.. gone for good. I think his gaming the system and bad behaviour in the past is simply his way of beating the system.. he had a genuine interest in improving the project but for whatever reason his way of going about it is breaking some site rules that he seems to feel are not as binding (to him) as they inevitably are; plus his intellect and wit would get him past it it without a scratch, and got a rude awakening that he can't just breeze his way past our site policies. Anyway.. my characterizations may be totally off-beat here but this was my two cents and initial impressions that colored by my decision to support. Thanks very much. -- Ϫ 04:33, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- Let me clarify a few things here. First, it is not a good idea to expect Bazaan or any other editor here to be completely perfect. Second, like some others have requested, I would oppose topic ban and it is not needed because he was not topic banned when he was blocked. If he makes disruptive edits we have always got AN or AE for seeking sanction like topic ban. Instead I would say that he should make another promising unblock request, not before next 6 months. He should confirm that he understood the damage that he has done and try not to justify with anything better that he presumably did here. Capitals00 (talk) 16:20, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
Adding Template:Empty-warn-deletion and other post-deletion notices to Twinkle
Not sure about the rest of you, but I didn't even know these templates existed until recently. I have been doing a terrible practice of first using Twinkle to request speedy deletion, then deleting it (never mind if this was done too hastily, let's assume it wasn't). That way the user gets that important info they need about why the page was inappropriate, along with a welcome template, etc. I know of other admins who also follow this less-than-ideal procedure.
So, I thought this workflow should be incorporated into Twinkle. This would be a whole new interface change, that I figure would mimic the Block module. That is, you have a "delete page" checkbox, and another for "add deletion notice to user talk page". The latter would welcome the user if they haven't been already, and issue a deletion notice if they've haven't already received a notice about the page being nominated for deletion. We'd need to map each rationale to one of the existing post-deletion templates, or create a few new ones as needed.
Any thoughts or suggestions on this matter? Is this effort worthwhile - as in, would you use it!? =P
Related: Around midday GMT on 15 January I'm going to deploy a big update to the Twinkle CSD module. This will just make it so that admins can delete under multiple rationale, enter in URLs for copyright vios, etc, just like you can for requesting speedy deletion. More on that later! — MusikAnimal talk 04:39, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- (Non-administrator comment) Cool! That sounds absolutely appropriate for certain types of speedy, like ones dealing with copyvio, since those almost never can be successfully contested. I'd be more concerned about enabling an instant A7 with no warning, though. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 04:54, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- I had the same thought, however the page could have been up for a while with no modifications, in which case A7 without prior notice might be appropriate. I feel like Twinkle functionality can have a big influence on what users do, so maybe there should be an additional confirmation for certain criterion like A7 — MusikAnimal talk 05:20, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- You wouldn't be "enabling an instant A7 with no warning", that option is available to every admin anyway, and some (many?) use it (I do, to give an example). Whether a page gets tagged for A7 by an editor and deleted two minutes later by an admin, or gets deleted straight away, won't make much of a difference for the user being informed / warned. I have no objection to the proposal, automatically informing the user isn't a problem, but this shouldn't be used to impose new restrictions on what can be deleted. Fram (talk) 09:03, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- No, we don't want Twinkle to introduce any unaccepted restrictions. However there is a somewhat accepted norm to allow users some time to work on their article before deleting under less serious criterion like A7. I'm thinking once you hit submit to delete under any of the A-criteria (except maybe A2), Twinkle will check when the article was created. If was created say, less than 30 minutes ago, it will prompt if you are sure you want to proceed with deletion. This functionality should probably also be applied when requesting speedy deletion. The idea here again I think is not to enforce some practice, rather to recommend and/or make it easier to follow that practice — MusikAnimal talk 19:19, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- You wouldn't be "enabling an instant A7 with no warning", that option is available to every admin anyway, and some (many?) use it (I do, to give an example). Whether a page gets tagged for A7 by an editor and deleted two minutes later by an admin, or gets deleted straight away, won't make much of a difference for the user being informed / warned. I have no objection to the proposal, automatically informing the user isn't a problem, but this shouldn't be used to impose new restrictions on what can be deleted. Fram (talk) 09:03, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- I had the same thought, however the page could have been up for a while with no modifications, in which case A7 without prior notice might be appropriate. I feel like Twinkle functionality can have a big influence on what users do, so maybe there should be an additional confirmation for certain criterion like A7 — MusikAnimal talk 05:20, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- I've got a better idea. Unless it's a copyvio / attack or something actually urgent, one editor should CSD tag it, and then another editor can delete it if they agree with the assessment. It's best to keep the "editor" and "administrator" roles separate. NE Ent 21:16, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Why? When I come across an article written by FirstNameLastName with the text "FirstName LastName is a Software developer who works for Tata Consultancy Services Lmtd.", I don't wait for a second opinion, I A7 delete on sight. Tagging articles for deletion is hardly part of the "editor" role, it is maintenance, just like deletion is. People are made admins (or remain admins) because their judgment in deletion discussions is judged to be sound and because they are trusted not to use the tools too fast normally. If admins regularly make bad deletions, they are normally called upon this. Adding bureaucracy (the need to have two people involved in a speedy, the need to wait 30 minutes, the need to first inform the page creator, ...) will only result in poor pages being kept longer (with more pages slipping through the cracks), encouraging people to create more of the same. Is there an actual problem your "better idea" is solving, or is it just a philosophically "better" idea? Fram (talk) 08:05, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Proposal to community ban the "Best known for IP"
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I think I personally have blocked the user described in Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Best known for IP about 15 times now, including several lengthy rangeblocks for chronic block evasion, edit warring and incivility, and I'm not the only admin to do this, and I'm now a bit fed up of blocking the same person for the same policy violations over and over again. Unlike most long-term abusers, he's never actually been community banned, merely repeatedly blocked ad infinitum after evasion. While this might seem like an exercise in pointless red tape, it does give us a firm consensus to say "you are banned, goodbye" without any possibility of wasting anyone's time arguing about it. Our banning policy does permit it, though it's rare. Your thoughts, please.
- Support as proposer Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:47, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support their long term abuse page seems eminently justified. Any editor who is a long term abuser should also be site banned, in my opinion. Also, being an IP editor should not be a "get out clause" for chronic sockpuppetry. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 13:19, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support This editor has taken up far too much admin time. Any suggestions for long-term solutions? Liz Read! Talk! 13:38, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- As is well known, I make only high quality edits, which are often reverted for no reason at all by a clique of editors who simply hate people without usernames. Ritchie333 has led a long term campaign of attacks against me, creating a policy violating page to coordinate them. He has a) blocked large ranges of anonymous IPs for months or years at a time in contravention of blocking policy, b) declared himself "involved" and unable to block me only to then block me, as he says, many times, c) abused the revision delete policy to delete my edits, with the claim that the word "idiot" is "grossly offensive"; d) encouraged others to revert my edits for no reason - see "Beyond My Ken"'s 200+ reverts last night; e) encouraged others to break the 3RR and to violate core policy; f) used his adminstrative tools to prevent spelling and grammar corrections being made to severely deficient articles, including acting to keep the word "should't" in an article for more than a year; g) encouraged a racist editor to remove sourced statements describing the reaction to a referendum, on the grounds that he finds them personally offensive.
- I am not and have never been banned. I am not and have never been a "long term abuser", as falsely claimed here. An absurd block placed for spurious reasons by a subsequently desysopped admin is being used as justification for the most obscene attacks yet on my character and edits. It should be obvious who is causing the problems here. If you think that admin time is being wasted, then tell the policy abusing admins to stop wasting their time. If you'd only stop reverting and blocking for no reason at all, there would be no problem here. 85.13.238.124 (talk) 14:03, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- And by the way, stopping your attacks on me is the only plausible long term solution. I will never stop what I do here, because what I do here is write an encyclopaedia. 85.13.238.124 (talk) 14:06, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Saying "I bet you pissed yourself laughing at the latest series of 50 or so pointless reverts, didn't you?" and then violating WP:3RR to edit war over it [5], [6], [7] [8] is not "writing an encyclopedia". I don't think I've ever done this, but I'm now going to formally ask you to stay off my talk page and never comment there again. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 14:46, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Comment if you're so unfairly treated, can you explain all of your sock-puppetry? --Jules (Mrjulesd) 14:12, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- I have never used sockpuppets. Why are you lying about me? Who are you, anyway? To the best of my recollection we've had no previous interaction whatsoever. 85.13.238.124 (talk) 14:18, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- If have seen you keep the same IP for weeks, then switch within minutes of being blocked. You are not innocently changing IPs, you are deliberately doing it to circumvent policy. You sock puppetry is very real and intentional. You are not fooling anyone. HighInBC 17:09, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Looking at your LTA page makes it clear you have used IP hopping in a way that highly suggests it contravenes Wikipedia:Sock puppetry. If you disagree, to avoid doubt, you should edit from an account. If you were to do this I would support a fresh start. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 14:49, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- I have never used sockpuppets. Why are you lying about me? Who are you, anyway? To the best of my recollection we've had no previous interaction whatsoever. 85.13.238.124 (talk) 14:18, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- And by the way, stopping your attacks on me is the only plausible long term solution. I will never stop what I do here, because what I do here is write an encyclopaedia. 85.13.238.124 (talk) 14:06, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support - Of course. Extremely disruptive editor. Actualy, the IP he's using now needs to be blocked for the same reasonm his other IPs were blocked yesterday. BMK (talk) 14:22, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- You have made more than 10 reverts in the last 24 hours on more than 40 separate articles. You are engaging in extreme disruption. I only ever make high quality and highly necessary edits. You and your ilk don't like quality, do you? 85.13.233.118 (talk) 14:30, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Ritchie333 is entirely correct -- it is an exercise in pointless red tape Oppose NE Ent 14:23, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- I have no doubt that they appear "pointless" to you, but clearly other editors do not agree. We either have a blocking and banning policy, and we follow through with it, or we don't. Allowing long time abusers such as the "Best known for IP" to edit at will when they are under an active block, and are de facto banned as an LTA, is detrimental to the community, and an insult to those editors who actually try (obviously, not all of all always succeed) to edit according to the rules and policies of the space. If an LTA is given the freedom to evade their block/ban, why should anyone else feel obligated to follow any other policies? BMK (talk) 16:22, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support – Allowing this guy to continue is an admission that Wikipedia has no blocking policy. The fact that he improves articles by 0.1% on an occasional basis does not outweigh the interminable attitude, abuse and insults that he throws around and the incessant block evasion. He has even admitted on this page that he will "never stop". So can we effectively block someone or not? Contrary to his claims, his edits are moderately useful at best, very rarely "high quality" and he never writes anything anyway. He's 10% value, 90% tedious, disruptive childishness. He has sometimes been reverted for no reason, for sure, but if you revert him for a good reason, he will frequently tear into you with a tirade of disgusting abuse. Moreover, he has been allowed to do it for years and years. Unacceptable. Bretonbanquet (talk) 14:54, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support ban: I see nothing wrong with formalizing the ban. My understanding of the preference for leaving de facto bans as de facto is to avoid using noticeboard space in a formal ban discussion in a way that somewhat undermines the goals embodied in WP:DENY. Well, the die is cast: Ritchie333 made the thread. I'm not saying it was a mistake... it is certainly unusual to have someone on LTA who isn't banned, and maybe there's been trouble in dealing with this editor that isn't immediately obvious that would be aided by the mechanisms available for a formally banned user. In any event, as I said, I see nothing wrong with formalizing the ban. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 14:54, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support ban The guy's claim he only does quality edits isn't true. Its those occasions where his edits don't improve the encyclopedia that are the most problematic. He will return again and again, edit warring to impose his edits, whilst grossly abusing anyone who disagrees. He doesn't actually create content, never seen him create an article and the minor spelling corrections and grammar polishing he does do is not worth the problems he creates. WCMemail
15:27, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- As I mentioned in several places, if any editor in good standing wants to restore any of this editor's contributions that I reverted (which are easily found by scrolling through my contribution list) and take personal responsibility for them, I have absolutely no problem with that. Several editors have already done exactly that, and I have not touched those restorations. BMK (talk) 16:18, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support ban LTA, edit warring, disruption, block evasion... A net negative to the project. Keri (talk) 15:34, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support ban Quality edits? Are you kidding me? That's a serious insult to those who are actually writing the encyclopedia. He's a negative to the project and a ban discussion is long overdue. Katietalk 15:40, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support ban. All his edits at the moment are block evasion at this point, so even those that may be seen as constructive are problematic. Add the abuse makes the point perfectly clear for me. I'm not quite sure what difference a ban will make compared with the current situation (I don't think there are any tools not at our disposal that will become available if we get consensus), but it may be useful to make the position more unambiguously clear. Kahastok talk 16:41, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support ban Block evasion, abuse of editors, this guy needs to find another website. While the ban may not make much of a technical difference it will at least discredit his constant complaining that his blocks are unfair. HighInBC 17:06, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support - while editing from different IPs, all by itself, isn't evidence of bad faith, doing so right after the old IP was blocked, repeatedly, is. If you add any other disruption bad enough to justify many of these blocks, then a ban is appropriate. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 17:33, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support Persistent block evasion. It's well-known that this editor's IP has a tendency to change immediately after being blocked. That's block evasion, plain and simple. Having a dynamic IP is no defense. Blocks are levied against the editor, so switching to a new IP does not absolve them of the block. This is, of course, in addition to the personal attacks they spew when they don't get their way. Useful edits or not, this editor is persona non grata because of their behavior. clpo13(talk) 18:30, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support ban If reverted, he will edit-war his own version, even if the article has subsequently been checked against the sources and corrected. See [9] (not to mention the edit summary). Burninthruthesky (talk) 18:48, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support ban After reading the LTA report, it is less about the nature of the edits and more about the extreme incivility that this editor has shown others. They repeatedly edit war, spew personal attacks whenever challenged, and from looking at the evidence they purposefully change IPs to avoid blocks. The personal attacks are enough to warrant blocks and the repeated block evasion and sockpuppetry is enough to warrant a ban. I also don't appreciate being duped into thinking I am helping someone with a problem and it turns out that the person is a LTA case (ie. Jimbo's talk page last night). --Majora (talk) 18:57, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Strongly oppose ban. This is an overwhelmingly positive editor on whom a long-term abuse page was originally made to correlate reports on their edit-warring. However, much of the edit-warring arose out of their being reverted on spurious grounds (I recall the report on Wind waves as an early example, where at least part of the disputed edit was correct), and the existence of the long-term abuse page was taken to indicate they were a vandal. Kww implemented very long blocks on the same basis, set up a filter to identify their edits from edit summaries, and rolled back all their edits. Kww is no longer a sysop but this editor continues to be blocked as if they were a major threat to the encyclopedia; meanwhile, their edits are overwhelmingly good. Yes, this person gets angry and abusive, but I and Drmies worked with them and they greatly reduced the amount of abuse; for some time, it has required diligent searching to identify this editor, since they are not habitually abusive. Meanwhile they have themselves initiated several AN/I reports in an attempt to get out from under this cloud. This is a positive editor determined to help Wikipedia who is being treated like Willy on Wheels. No basis for a ban at all. Yngvadottir (talk) 20:43, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- This is not some poor soul caught up in a bad situation. This person is a nasty[10][11][12][13] IP hopping edit warrior[14]. That is plenty of basis. And a lot of their edits are only good in their opinion. They are certainly not overwhelming positive, in fact they are so negative that they can only exist here by constantly changing IPs. I wonder if you have looked at any of the masses of evidence provided? HighInBC 20:50, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- They're no shrinking violet, but just at random, this edit they reinstated was perfectly fine - it corrected a grammar error and removed a peacock word. I would love it if they would start creating articles. I have sometimes found their copyediting exasperatingly limited (they miss other glaring errors in the article). And I'm ill-equipped to evaluate scientific edits, although my impression is that they're usually right in their corrections to science articles, too (re: Wind waves, what I recall was that the article defined them in the lede as very large and then went on to say in the body that they also occurred in puddles; the IP was being reverted removing the statement from the lede that they were always very large; within my scientific competence, I believe the IP was right). I note your first set of diffs are all slanging Ritchie; well, Ritchie's a big boy and an admin now, and can presumably take a certain amount of that, and the basis of the IP's discontent is that he stated he would not block the IP - and now does just that. As if the IP were community banned. I do not see any basis for such a ban. This emperor has no clothes. Yngvadottir (talk) 21:03, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Some of their edits are good, so what? They edit war, and are nasty, and evade blocks immediately and often. I see you did not look at the masses of evidence provided, they are not just nasty to Ritchie, they are nasty to every person who disagrees with them. Half of the conflicts they get into are with people who don't know who they are. This person creates their own trouble. HighInBC 21:09, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- We want to minimize editors being nasty to each other, but the way to do that is not to endorse the blanket reversal of good edits on spurious grounds. This is a circular mess. The editor is not banned, and who wouldn't react badly to knee-jerk reverts of positive edits? Those who "don't know who they are" are mostly reverting just because the edit was by an unregistered user - there is rarely any other reason per se to revert their edits. And that's harmful to the encyclopedia. So is treating an overwhelmingly positive contributor like a vandal by banning them. The better solution is to give only commensurately short blocks for actual instances of bad behavior, so that they don't get constantly caught for "block evading" when they fix grammar errors, eliminate peacock words, and improve science articles. Yngvadottir (talk) 21:21, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Given that they "evade blocks immediately and often" -- converting a de facto ban into a we-all-voted-on-it ban doesn't actually make any difference to anything. NE Ent 21:26, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Strongly oppose. What Yngvadottir said. Most of their edits are high-quality, and they are not always unwilling to discuss--as long as they are not reverted on sight without any justification. Automated and unexplained reverts, which were routinely done, were justified along the lines of WP:BMB, to the detriment of the encyclopedia and the editing atmosphere. But I've said all of this before, as has Yngvadottir, and our claims that the editor was frequently provoked into edit warring and insults by way of passive-aggressively reverting with boilerplate summaries have always fallen on deaf ears. I've frequently edited as an IP, depending on location and circumstance, and I recognize the feeling the IP must have felt frequently--except that they never got the "Oh it's you! Sorry for reverting" apology. But this is all water under the bridge, I see. I'm sure someone will add this to the LTA page and everyone will feel much better about themselves for Having Done The Right Thing. Drmies (talk) 15:10, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- This looks like the same restless energy formerly used to dismember Eric Corbett, now seeking the next sacrifice. --Epipelagic (talk) 15:39, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Provoked into edit warring? Really? Do you remember this exchange from 2013 User_talk:200.104.245.226. He was claiming he was provoked but he hadn't been. People give too much credence to the poor little IP picked on by named accounts meme, it was a fig leaf he hid behind. WCMemail 17:04, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- This looks like the same restless energy formerly used to dismember Eric Corbett, now seeking the next sacrifice. --Epipelagic (talk) 15:39, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose, per Drmies and Yngvadottir, and mostly Ent, although obviously too late, and my apologies for that. I do feel strongly enough about this to post after the close, though. Begoon talk 16:36, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- Support ban since it looks like this is heading toward being reopened given the mess of post-close comments. Support per nom. I strongly object to the notion that any editor disruptive enough to earn themselves an LTA case can ever be considered a positive contributor, and I strongly object to the mess of holes being constantly punched in the blocking policy by administrators endorsing constructive actions by blocked users. I say again: if admins aren't going to strictly enforce blocks, then it will save all of us a whole bunch of time if we just stop pretending they exist at all. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 16:08, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
Since this discussion was open only for less than half a day, rather untypically for ban discussions, and several substanial oppose votes from well-respected editors were added later, I have asked the closer to consider reopening the thread to allow these concerns a proper hearing. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:43, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
- The opposers have prolonged this problem for quite some time, Fut.Perf.. They don't really have an argument beyond their personal distaste for the concept of reverting edits simply because they were block evasion. This particular editor is the subject of multiple blocks at this time: I think the longest currently running one expires sometime in 2018.—Kww(talk) 17:12, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- WCM, that kind of commentary, that sort of sneering, my kids aren't allowed to do that. You're an adult. And why you don't get that such remarks are a personal attack on me, I'll never know, but thanks for your good faith, pal. Fut.Perf., I appreciate what you did, but it's not going to make much of a difference, given the overwhelming support for the ban. (Note I'm trying to phrase this as neutrally as I can.) Drmies (talk) 19:22, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- Well Drmies it wasn't intended as a personal attack, I forget sometimes that text is not always the best means to communicate and as it has upset you, I apologise for my poor use of words. Just for information, not an excuse, it was intended as light hearted remark on my part. However, I do have a serious point to make in reference to assuming good faith; no one set out to provoke the guy. In assuming that they did, you do a disservice to the editors who've been on the receiving end of his abuse for no good reason, other than a good faith attempt to improve wikipedia. WCMemail 22:53, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- I would support this being re-opened for another 14-15 hours if only to put this to bed. Ban discussion are supposed to run for 24 hours, and the last thing we want is another thing for this IP to wikilawyer about. I have no concern that the outcome will be any different, the evidence is clear to anyone who will accept it. HighInBC 03:45, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- Does anyone else even want to say anything? If not then we should just extend the close tag over this text. HighInBC 04:06, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
Legacypac's persistent bullying
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Mystery Wolff
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
NOTE: Because of items brought up newly within the Meta Discussion, and discussion on with which group reviews the item, this is moved to the A/R/E board, intact. Mystery Wolff (talk) 20:42, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- See Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Mystery Wolff. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 22:40, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
"This arbitration case has been closed and the final decision is available at the link above."
The following remedies have been enacted
4) For consistently poor judgment in undertaking administrative actions following a formal admonishment, Kevin Gorman is desysopped. He may regain the administrative tools at any time via a successful request for adminship. Passed 13 to 3 at 17:53, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
For the Arbitration Committee Amortias (T)(C) 18:08, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- Discuss this at: Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard#Wikipedia:Arbitration_Requests_Case_Kevin_Gorman_closed
Deceased admin/Dreadstar
Here Dreadstar.(Littleolive oil (talk) 18:24, 18 January 2016 (UTC))
- Sad news. –xenotalk 18:31, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- I don't know if this is outing but can I ask how this information was obtained? I corresponded with Dreadstar as recently as last fall so this is a surprise to me. Regardless of the fact that he was a former admin, he was a longtime Wikipedia contributor. Liz Read! Talk! 18:39, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- FWIW: In my past conversations with Dreadstar - I believe that he preferred that his privacy be respected. — Ched : ? 19:14, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
- Littleolive oil and Ched in particular, I was wondering whether his family or friends (at some later point) could be asked for a good photograph of him for Wikipedia:Deceased Wikipedians, but I can't work out whether he would have wanted that. I think maybe yes, but I'm not sure. SarahSV (talk) 01:41, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
ANRFC again
Here's a story, for those who haven't met their recommended daily allowance of drama yet: Over the last few months, we've had a series of RFCs at WT:MEDRS, some of which would have benefited from closing statements by experienced admins. Most of these RFCs have dealt, directly or indirectly, with whether sources from a particular country, whose academic journals are under political pressure to publish only The Right Answer™, are desirable sources. (The overall "vote", if you care about numbers, is about 3 to 1 against this idea.)
We've simultaneously, and not really as a result of this, had another one of our periodic fights about the exact scope of MEDRS, with the usual (i.e., very low) level of immediate success, but with some useful and interesting comments that might eventually help us improve that guideline. This fight mostly covered the question of whether and when information about violent crimes needs medical sources, e.g., rather than legal or social ones. Having both of these fights at the same time, and mostly involving the same people, has been more than a little inconvenient.
(I'm omitting names, because identities actually don't matter much, and I don't want to bother with a long string of notifications or to have anyone think that the problem is just one person's personality.)
Order of RFCs:
- The first round was originally closed by a NAC who was TBAN'd (from something unrelated to the RFC) last year. Multiple editors involved in this RFC were also involved in the TBAN discussion. As it happened – I explicitly do not allege any sort of dishonesty here, but rather an unfortunate circumstance that the NAC may not even have noticed – the closing statement was in favor of the minority who favor citing politically manipulated journals and against the editors who voted for the TBAN. "Losing" editors have made this NAC suffer for volunteering to close this enormous discussion.
- Then we had a long fight about whether there exist things that are related to health, but that aren't exactly intended to be covered by MEDRS (e.g., violent crime). Initially, there were two of these RFCs; thankfully, the OP for the first stated that he formally withdrew it in favor of the other, and it therefore did not end up in the laundry list at ANRFC. (If it had, then we might have ended up with contradictory closing statements.) The second one was closed, about two months after it began, by an admin who deserves praise, because this was not a small task and because it was impossible to avoid disappointing some good editors. The thoroughly explained closing statement is getting a few complaints, but IMO they are largely respectful complaints, and I expect the overall dispute to settle down as people find ways to adjust and meet their needs.
- The second round on politically pressured sources demanded that ediotrs pick a way to implement the first RFC even though they objected to everything about the close, from the outcome to the identity of the NAC. This newer one was closed the other day by an apparently innocent editor, who created an account two months ago and has made exactly 384 edits so far, including closing several RFCs and a lot of edits about a movie. The new editor has tried to provide helpful advice, like narrowing down the five options to the two least-contested.
- Now we have another RFC that's trying to force people to pick between the two least-contested wordings about political sources, even though the clear signal from the editors is that they do not want any of those options at all. Realistically, I expect this to either keep going for a month, or for someone to propose a TBAN against the OP.
Why I'm bothering telling you about this:
The fact that two NACs have tried to close some of these incredibly contentious RFCs on hot-button issues means that we have a structural problem with ANRFC. We have a lot of "process" and a lot of "activity", but the RFCs that need admin attention aren't getting that attention.
I don't believe that this is due to having too few admins, because we had too few admins a few years ago, and we didn't really have this problem a few years ago. What's changed since then is:
- One editor has been filling ANRFC with about 90% of the RFCs that have expired. The number of listed RFCs has gone up 3x to 4x compared to 2012, although the number of complicated or highly contentious RFCs does not appear to have changed. (I've checked the RFCs listings for formatting problems off and on for years, so I've got a decent idea of what goes through the pipe.) Listing almost everything might make the signal-to-noise ratio unfavorable for admins. When you see that there are dozens listed, with no sense of priority and with many that can have nothing more than a rubber-stamp on a nearly-unanimous vote, it would not be unreasonable to start ignoring the whole list. It's also on a separate subpage, which means that changes probably aren't appearing in your watchlist.
- We have formally agreed that NACs can and should be encouraged to close all sorts of discussions, and we have relied upon their experience and wisdom to stop them from stepping into a mess like this. I actually saw the ANRFC listing for one of these a while ago, contemplated adding a note warning off NACs, and I decided that such a comment was unnecessary, because it was so obviously contentious that nobody except an admin would touch it. I was wrong. At this point, it might be reasonable for WP:NAC and related advice to stop assuming that all editors have the necessary experience and wisdom figure out which discussions come with a free bull's eye target for their backs.
I'm not really proposing a specific solution here. Instead, I want to point out that there is a problem, and that I have identified two separate factors that I believe are contributing to it. There may be others; I would really appreciate hearing ideas about other probable factors. I think that if we can identify the probable causes for this, then we might be able to find a way to make this system more functional. WhatamIdoing (talk) 07:48, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- WP:NAC is less relevant than WP:Requests_for_comment#Ending_RfCs and WP:Closing_discussions#Closure_procedure. You were wrong in thinking a non-admin would not close the discussion because becoming an admin bestows no magical consensus deciding powers. In fact the majority of admins have little/no more experience in that area than many long-time editors. Not to mention the 'this is a contentious RFC' line is trotted out whenever someone disagrees with the result. Just because people have different opinions does not make something contentious. Although I will agree that most of the MEDRS stuff does follow that path by MEDRS own design. The problem at this point is not with non-admin closures, or closures in general, its that MEDRS is full of people who want MEDRS to apply everywhere. Even when it really shouldnt. Some of the recent articles I watch where people insist on a MEDRS compliant source - crime articles for example - are not remotely medical, yet people are seriously arguing crime is always a health issue so MEDRS should apply. Now couple that with the fact that at MEDRS, people generally fall into two camps, a)editors demanding the highest possible quality source (the inference being: Western published) and b)editors who want the criteria lowered so they can use all sorts of crap as a source anywhere MEDRS applies. This wouldnt normally be a problem (people arguing in their walled gardens) except for the aforementioned over-reach of MEDRS scope. It has the potential to impact large sections of wikipedia. At this very minute people are arguing over wording that (as it reads) says "Do not reject a high-quality type of study due to personal objections to the study's inclusion criteria, references, funding sources, country of origin, or conclusions." Anyone who spends any time at RSN knows that (apart from possible country of origin) those are considered all the time. The problem isnt with ANRFC, discussion closing etc, the problem is MEDRS and the crap thats argued over there. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:03, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- I don't know anything about this specifc situation but I do agree with WhatamIdoing regarding over-reporting at ANRFC. It's become a bloated mess that is often longer than the whole rest of this noticeboard, and as a result suffers from disinterest. I think a re-organization of ANRFC is in order, something that would make it clear what is a priority that really needs a close and what is just a low-level content dispute that petered out days or weeks ago. Beeblebrox (talk) 04:17, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- When I tried to deal with the over-reporting some time ago, merely removing stuff that didn't need to be listed, I got reverted: [16] and [17] were followed by reversions by Dicklyon (who hasn't touched ANRFC since his unblock) and by the 90%-filling editor. We need to enforce WP:ADMINSHOP — when an admin has responded to your request, don't re-post the request as if it had been removed by accident or by a vandal. If you don't like being told that it doesn't need a formal close, ask another admin privately; I'm not trying to shut down the asking entirely. Nyttend (talk) 04:39, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- I fully support reigning in ANRFC. This even came up at one of the Village Pumps last fall, and I tried to get Cunard to quit spamming ANRFC, but got nowhere. I'm not an Admin, but even I took to knocking out some of those entries a few days back as "Not done" as they were clearly "uncloseable" – a significant percentage of the entries that keep getting spammed to ANRFC simply don't belong there. (As an aside, it might be good if something like that – "Uncloseable" or "Declined" – is added to the other options at ANRFC like "Done" or "Not done"...) But I think it's going to take concerted action from Admins to reign ANRFC back in. Heck, it might even require a temporary Topic Ban in one case... But this is going to have to be done by Admins – after all: this is your page here. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 21:05, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- From what I am seeing here, I think a formal RFC on ANRFC is in order to establish some reasonable guidelines and best practices for what should be reported there and how to handle the sheer volume of reports. I have been trying to force myself to take a prolonged break from creating policy RFCs, but I would offer up User:Beeblebrox/The perfect policy proposal as guidance for anyone wishing to construct such a process. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:16, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- As a NAC that has closed quite a few RFC's on WP:ANRFC, I see no problem with the listing of RFC's in bulk. The editor opening them may not be aware of where to request a close and may just think its automatically done because the header is automatically removed. I honestly believed that when I started editing. The RFC's go down to a respectable level before more are added. As the editor who specifically requested an admin to close the last RFC on MEDRS, even if I were not involved I would not have closed it. Not because it was contentious, all RFC's are contentious to some extent, there is a disagreement, thats the reason a RFC was started in the first place. The reason is that a NAC was completely ignored when last a NAC closed a RFC there. There was no respect for the process and edit warring ruled. The RFC close was not followed, but the larger number of editors edit warred to keep the page exactly as it was. AlbinoFerret 00:10, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- The problem is that it's obfuscation through volume. I stopped looking there when I realized I was wasting my time going through all manner of discussions that are 1. almost without exception the most stunningly boring issues imaginable and 2. didn't need a formal close anyways. After a little while I felt like it'd be less painful to pound my nuts flat with a ball peen hammer, and judging by the size of it now I don't seem to be the only one. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:07, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Agree with TBotNL – a significant percentage of the content getting put up at ANRFC are either, 1) not actual RfCs and thus don't belong there at all, or 2) are RfC's that are "unclosable" either because no real "Support/Oppose" voting took place or because there was too little discussion to even establish "Consensus/No Consensus". I doubt anyone has an issue with real "problem" RfC's being posted to ANRFC – the problem is 1) the volume of postings to ANRFC, and 2) the relative percentage of "junk" entries there. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 02:02, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- The problem is that it's obfuscation through volume. I stopped looking there when I realized I was wasting my time going through all manner of discussions that are 1. almost without exception the most stunningly boring issues imaginable and 2. didn't need a formal close anyways. After a little while I felt like it'd be less painful to pound my nuts flat with a ball peen hammer, and judging by the size of it now I don't seem to be the only one. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:07, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- I have been checking for non RFC's for the last three months. I have seen some editors request a close of a discussion they are a part of. So far the only discussions that I have seen that are listed as a RFC had a RFC header removed by Legobot. AlbinoFerret 02:20, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- I haven't scrupulously checked, so I'll concede that what you say may very well be true. Nonetheless, even if they had proper "RfC headers", some of the ones I've seen were not properly formatted as RfC's, and thus shouldn't have been put up at ANRFC. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 02:32, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- I have been checking for non RFC's for the last three months. I have seen some editors request a close of a discussion they are a part of. So far the only discussions that I have seen that are listed as a RFC had a RFC header removed by Legobot. AlbinoFerret 02:20, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
yep. Just putting {{RFC}} on a page does not mean it has to have a formal close no matter what. Robotically reporting everyhting that has had that header on it at some point without seeing if it really needs a closer is a disservice to the community because it increases backogs and leads to disinterest in the whole process. Look how bloated it is right now. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:17, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you to the WP:ANRFC closers, particularly the recent prolific closers AlbinoFerret (talk · contribs), Fountains-of-Paris (talk · contribs), Graeme Bartlett (talk · contribs), GRuban (talk · contribs), and Robert McClenon (talk · contribs), for your hard work.
Mariah Carey birth years discussion; a "consensus is clear" close is referenced 16 months later to enforce the consensus
Here is a "consensus is clear" closure request from September 2013: link. The consensus was already implemented. Mariah Carey's two possible birth years were added to the article. An admin wrote "no need for a formal close of this". I asked again for a close after someone reverted against consensus, and Armbrust (talk · contribs) closed it.
In January 2015 (16 months later), a new editor disputed the consensus version, saying only one year should be listed. Another editor responded with a link to the RfC, Talk:Mariah Carey/Archive 9#Request for Comment: Birth Year. Had the RfC not been closed by an uninvolved editor, it would have been far more difficult to ensure the consensus is respected. "Read an uninvolved editor's summary of the RfC" is more likely to be heeded than "read this long, unclosed talk page discussion".
Of course something like this doesn't happen to all "consensus is clear" discussions. But it is impossible to distinguish between the two types because we cannot see into the future. It is impossible to determine whether the consensus will be overlooked or ignored in the future. And it is not worth the time to hazard a guess because as S Marshall noted "Necessary or not, it's no real effort to close them" and as Ncmvocalist wrote, "it would take more effort to discuss whether to close or to discuss why signed comments were deleted".
Why closing discussions is important
Scott summarized it very well at Wikipedia talk:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure/Archive 1#Too many discussions being added:
Robert McClenon, one of RfC's dedicated and hard-working closers, explained why formal closure of even seemingly "consensus is clear discussions" is helpful at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive268#Benefits of Formal Closure:Lack of resolution to ongoing debates is a continuing issue on this project. If there are too many things listed here, it's because there are too many things left unfinished. It's a reflection of reality. As Cunard points out in his admirable response in the "September 2013" link above, not having a formal closure can also lead to misinterpretations (or deliberate ignorance) of consensus by persons in disputes, and not provide a recourse for editors attempting to enforce consensus. Having an accepted closure to point to will be immensely useful in many subsequent debates. We should encourage these. Making them is tough work, and I think that's what's putting editors off doing it, not seeing the number that need to be done.
I have closed several RFCs where I thought that consensus was clear, but that required follow-up for either of two reasons. Either one of the posters ignored the consensus, in spite of the formal closure stating the consensus, or one of the posters objected to the close and requested that I re-open the RFC to allow them to insert a statement. When there was move-warring against consensus or edit-warring against consensus, formal closure put the enforcing administrator on firmer ground in enforcing consensus. Formal closure establishes what the consensus is, unless reviewed. Otherwise the resulting WP:ANI thread would itself have had to establish consensus before warning or blocking, causing drama on a drama board. In cases where I have been asked to re-open a closure, I have instead asked for closure review. Without closure and closure review, the most likely result would have been edit-warring.
Recently closed RfCs
- Talk:Kuwait Airways#RFC: Should a threat of legal action by the Secretary of Transportation against the airline be included in the article? (closure request):
The discussion was split 3–2 to include the material in the article, but the closer closed the RfC as allowing the material based on strength of argument. Without an independent closer, the policy-based conclusion would not have been reached. The discussion looks like "no consensus", which means the material is excluded.
- Talk:2015 San Bernardino attack/Archive 5#RFC Victim names (closure request)
The discussion was contentious and from at a superficial glance looks like "no consensus", which means all of the material is excluded. But the closing editor carefully read the discussion and wrote a nuanced, eloquent summary of the discussion and the applicable policies, allowing part of the material to be included and part to be excluded.
- Talk:Siachen Glacier#RfC: Should the infobox say that the glacier is disputed ? (closure request)
The discussion was split 5–3 to say that the glacier is disputed in the inbox. Without an independent closer assessing the strength of the arguments, this could be considered "no consensus". The closer reviewed the discussion and found there to be a consensus based on the strengths of the arguments to say that the glacier is disputed. The closer further noted that there was no consensus about how to word this.
The close paved the way for a second RfC, Talk:Siachen Glacier#RfC: How should the infobox say that the glacier is disputed ? (closure request). The second RfC achieved a consensus for how to word the dispute in the infobox.
The RfC close that prompted WhatamIdoing's post here
WP:ANRFC has worked well for the past four years. If there are problems like inexperienced editors incorrectly closing RfCs, then those can be individually handled.
I think the RfC close that prompted WhatamIdoing's post is Elvey (talk · contribs)'s close of Wikipedia talk:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)/Archive 19#Request for Comment: Country of Origin. An RfC closure review was filed yesterday here. Non-admins have closed contentious RfCs in the past and have done a good job doing so. If there is a problem with this particular non-admin close, then it will be overturned at the closure review.
- Talk:Kuwait Airways#RFC: Should a threat of legal action by the Secretary of Transportation against the airline be included in the article? (closure request):
User:WhatamIdoing, what is happening is because the WMF is refusing to hire competent people to override bad decisions made by editors and admins. Wikipedia is obviously broken. QuackGuru (talk) 17:18, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
Arbitration motion regarding Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Genetically modified organisms
The Arbitration Committee has resolved by motion that:
- The Discretionary Sanctions remedy which currently says that " Standard discretionary sanctions are authorised for all pages relating to genetically modified organisms, agricultural biotechnology, and agricultural chemicals, broadly construed" are replaced with "Standard discretionary sanctions are authorised for all pages relating to genetically modified organisms, commercially produced agricultural chemicals and the companies that produce them, broadly construed."
For the Arbitration Committee, Miniapolis 14:44, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- Archived discussion
Admins needed at UTRS
It seems that I am practically the only admin reviewing unblock requests that come in through UTRS lately, and as a result it is getting backlogged. Some of them are appeals of blocks I did, so I can't review them. UTRS is generally actually simpler than on-wiki unblock reviews as it is mostly semi-automated. If you don't have a UTRS account it is easy to get one, see WP:UTRS for details. More checkusers would be handy as well, I'm still pretty new to CU and some of these appeals need a more experienced CU to handle them. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:19, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks a lot for your dedication and time Beeblebrox. I don't have a lot of time to respond to appeals these days but I remain the active tooladmin and will approve accounts for any admins who can volunteer some time. Most appeals are either easy declines (trolling or companies) or referrable to on-wiki. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 21:34, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- There's a couple there right now that I'm not sure what to do with. They are from IPs that are blocked as proxies. The persons filing the appeals claim to be in mainland China, which is one of the valid reasons for granting IPBE, but they don't have an account, they just want the proxy unblocked. I know that's a bad idea, but what I'm not sure about is if they can create an account at all while stuck behind the great firewall, so I really don't know how to respond. Any ideas? Beeblebrox (talk) 22:11, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- I did a few of them and I'm waiting for blocking admin input on a couple others. I'll do more once my latest headache fades away. Katietalk 22:41, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- I'm back from my unexpected break and will be able to help out more. I'm knocking a bunch of the outstanding requests back now.--Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 23:52, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- PS @Beeblebrox: I created a new template for IPBE requests where the range is hardblocked if you would like to use it in the future. (title: "IPBE request on hard rangeblock").--Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 00:28, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- Sounds good. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:40, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- PS @Beeblebrox: I created a new template for IPBE requests where the range is hardblocked if you would like to use it in the future. (title: "IPBE request on hard rangeblock").--Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 00:28, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- I'm back from my unexpected break and will be able to help out more. I'm knocking a bunch of the outstanding requests back now.--Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 23:52, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- I did a few of them and I'm waiting for blocking admin input on a couple others. I'll do more once my latest headache fades away. Katietalk 22:41, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- There's a couple there right now that I'm not sure what to do with. They are from IPs that are blocked as proxies. The persons filing the appeals claim to be in mainland China, which is one of the valid reasons for granting IPBE, but they don't have an account, they just want the proxy unblocked. I know that's a bad idea, but what I'm not sure about is if they can create an account at all while stuck behind the great firewall, so I really don't know how to respond. Any ideas? Beeblebrox (talk) 22:11, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
- Hello Beeblebrox. I have emailed the UTRS admins list to offer my assistance. Regards, Yamaguchi先生 (talk) 00:57, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- Awesome. The more the merrier. Beeblebrox (talk) 03:04, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- Yamaguchi先生 I regret to inform you that we have not received an e-mail from you. In any case, to volunteer you can simply register an account here. We're currently developping a new OAuth system to auto-authenticate admins, bypassing the need for individual registration, for that's just a project. :) ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 03:47, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
Advice on AE procedures
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Another editor has just made some pretty serious accusations about me (in an AE thread that was originally about something else, which has since run its course). I am pretty taken aback and I would like advice on the relevant AE procedures. Am I allowed to ask for time to compose a response? Am I allowed to call witnesses? Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:13, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
Bambifan question
Could someone familiar with Bambifan address WP:RFPP#Bambi II? The article was semiprotected in 2008 after a pile of trivial vandalism, and a new user asked that it be unprotected. The user in question doesn't at all look like a Bambifan account (all other edits are stuff like [18] and [19]), so I'm not questioning the request; I just don't know how we handle these pages that Bambifan loves to mangle. Nyttend (talk) 15:15, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- I would say that, in the absence of any BF activity, the article should be unprotected. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 16:34, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
RFC review request: Request for Comment: Country of Origin
Specific question asked:
"Should we change MEDRS, which currently reads:
Do not reject a high-quality type of study due to personal objections to the study's inclusion criteria, references, funding sources, or conclusions.
to
Do not reject a high-quality type of study due to personal objections to the study's inclusion criteria, references, funding sources, country of origin, or conclusions.
This proposal is to address only the addition of high-quality sources into the guideline
Concerns over the closing of this RFC have halted its implementation. The question is specific to only High-quality sources.
Discussion
- Endorse The RFC was specifically about High quality sources and this was spelled out in the RFC question. The question had a very narrow focus. The closer rightfully discounted comments that were about low quality sources as off topic. AlbinoFerret 19:50, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- This is nonsense; who defines what a high or low-quality source is? There is no clear-cut process that is accepted by all, and actually the entire reason for the guideline. What if you define it depending on "personal" reasons — then you nullify the entire clause? The RfC concerns sources on Wikipedia. CFCF 💌 📧 07:52, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- The guideline already gives reasons not to reject "high quality" sources for reasons like funding so that argument fails. But this is not a place to reargue the merits of the RFC. 13:48, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- No, but it is important to note the actual coverage of the RfC, which is all sources that would go on Wikipedia. CFCF 💌 📧 15:40, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Not all sources, only high quality ones. Your statement is one of the reasons I endorse this close. The RFC was a very narrow focused one and the off topic responses were obviously discounted, and your repeating them here doesnt invalidate the close. AlbinoFerret 15:53, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- No, but it is important to note the actual coverage of the RfC, which is all sources that would go on Wikipedia. CFCF 💌 📧 15:40, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- The guideline already gives reasons not to reject "high quality" sources for reasons like funding so that argument fails. But this is not a place to reargue the merits of the RFC. 13:48, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- This is nonsense; who defines what a high or low-quality source is? There is no clear-cut process that is accepted by all, and actually the entire reason for the guideline. What if you define it depending on "personal" reasons — then you nullify the entire clause? The RfC concerns sources on Wikipedia. CFCF 💌 📧 07:52, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Comment: I think that if you're bringing this here at this point, you should present the entire context, such as the two subsequent RfCs about the same question. Sunrise (talk) 01:21, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- I would rather start at the beginning and discuss one RFC at a time as it may not be necessary to review them all. The next RFC was closed no consensus and as a NAC I agree with that closing, but if someone disagrees with that close they are welcome to start a review for it. Though I dont know why a review for a no consensus close is necessary. There appears to be a current RFC that has recently started that I just became aware of today, but we are far from the close (about 3 weeks) of that RFC for a review, if it is necessary. AlbinoFerret 02:06, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Link to related discussions:
- Cunard (talk) 07:07, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- {{Do not archive until}} added. Please remove the {{Do not archive until}} tag after the review is closed. (I am adding this because RfC closure reviews frequently have been archived prematurely without being resolved.) Cunard (talk) 07:07, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Just a note, Wikipedia talk:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)#What does MEDRS cover? was on a different topic and section of MEDRS. AlbinoFerret 14:32, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
See Wikipedia_talk:Identifying_reliable_sources_(medicine)#Questions_about_RFC_closure_-_Country_of_origin. The closer wrote "Opinion in discussion appears evenly divided between Support for either 1, or 3, or 5 with No Consensus. In addition it is #3 which is the most contested. A new RfC which would rephrase the material as something like a choice between some version of #1 and some version of #5 would likely lead to an outcome." Fountains-of-Paris" The more recent RfC overrides the previous RfC. QuackGuru (talk) 16:24, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- QG your comment is about the second RFC, and a no consensus closing does not override a previous RFC. AlbinoFerret 16:35, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Yes it does. You did not mention the other RfCs when you began this discussion. Do you stand by that decision. QuackGuru (talk) 16:49, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Sure I do as posted above this is a discussion on one RFC, all the rest is off topic. AlbinoFerret 17:29, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Yes it does. You did not mention the other RfCs when you began this discussion. Do you stand by that decision. QuackGuru (talk) 16:49, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
There is a third RfC that rejects the use of country of origin. See Wikipedia_talk:Identifying_reliable_sources_(medicine)#RfC:_How_to_Implement_the_Country_of_Origin_Closing. QuackGuru (talk) 16:49, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Overturn close. The closer neglected to take into consideration comments made by others.
- Revert 1.
- Revert 2.
- Revert 3.
- Revert 4.
- Revert 5. The closer was trying to force changes in.
- It is suspicious the close was on 18 October 2015 and months later it is brought up here. The other RfCs show a clear consensus to not include the language that is against MEDRS to use low quality bias sources. QuackGuru (talk) 16:49, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you for the second editor to perfectly explain why the close should be endorsed. The RFC question was not about Low quality sources but high quality ones. Anyone replying with a low quality source comment was off topic. Also thank you for pointing out that the RFC was ignored and the only reason it was not implemented was edit warring, hence the need for this review. AlbinoFerret 17:29, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Using low quality bias sources is against MEDRS. Confirmed bias sources are not high quality sources. QuackGuru (talk) 17:33, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- The RFC question specifically was talking about a section in MEDRS dealing with High quality sources and never mentioned low quality sources. Regardless of low quality sources, can you address why the close was wrong when closing on High quality sources without going off topic into low quality ones and rearguing the RFC? AlbinoFerret 17:41, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Using low quality bias sources is against MEDRS. Confirmed bias sources are not high quality sources. QuackGuru (talk) 17:33, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you for the second editor to perfectly explain why the close should be endorsed. The RFC question was not about Low quality sources but high quality ones. Anyone replying with a low quality source comment was off topic. Also thank you for pointing out that the RFC was ignored and the only reason it was not implemented was edit warring, hence the need for this review. AlbinoFerret 17:29, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
Draft:Cannabis dispensary page move
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Would someone be willing to review the move of Draft:Cannabis dispensary from its main space article Marijuana dispensary back to its draft.
Article was approved via AFC and from the edit summaries[20] [21]it appears there is some disagreement on if it should have been moved or titled as such. The move back to draft was then followed up by an edit to redirect it to a page which has in turn prevented it being moved back again.
There has been a string of edits on the page by the original editor who was unaware of the process for reversing the changes and he has sought help on the irc channel. I'll ask them to confirm this here shortly. If someone is willing to review the move as I feel it was out of process to move the page and then edit the redirect to prevent it being moved back and for a discussion to follow.
If not I'll take it to a requested move.
Pinging @Anna Frodesiak: as original approver and @Viriditas: as the editor who moved it. Amortias (T)(C) 23:55, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- I am not all that familiar with the AFC process, so some clarification would be helpful. Potguru added a link to the new mainspace article in an article I created. I went to look at it, only to find that it had been declined by two AFC reviewers but somehow made its way to mainspace. The current article is mostly original research and cherry picked poor sourcing. I agree that Wikipedia could use an article on cannabis dispensaries, but this is not ready for mainspace. I tried to point out problems on the draft talk page in two different threads only to have my comments deleted. I am very familiar with the history of cannabis dispensaries in the US, so I was surprised to find this poorly sourced and poorly written article in mainspace. Viriditas (talk) 00:09, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- My apologies if I have caused all this by moving it to the mainspace prematurely. It seemed fine. Such page moves from main to draft have been done before, but cannot find a policy on it. It is not on the list. I will post at AfC about that and at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Cannabis to help get a review. The author must be very upset and the sooner he is un-upset the better. I have a long, long history with Viriditas, so I really should stay out judging right and wrong here. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:10, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Follow-up:
- I just posted at Wikiproject Cannabis asking for a review.
- It seems that users can boldly move an article into draft space per "Articles are incubated as a result of...iv) a bold move from article space..."
- Follow-up:
- Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:24, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Anna, it is perfectly fine for friends to disagree. Btw, when editors refer to a "long history" with another user, that generally means they are enemies. I'm guessing you did not intend to imply that interpretation. In any case, I note that the problems observed by the two previous AFC reviewers who declined it, were not fixed when you moved it. In order to move things toward resolution, I have noted on Potguru's talk page that I have no objection to a well-sourced stub that shows room for improvement and development. [22] Since you have lots of experience, maybe you could try starting a new stub on the subject? Viriditas (talk) 01:29, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Viriditas I also was one of the people that helped Potguru on this draft. Why would Anna have to start a new stub? Why wouldn't they just be able to use the draft that was already made? It is not referenced properly but it is referenced and there is plenty of news coverage out there on
marijuanacannabis dispensaries. So it is a notable topic. As to your original move, I find your edit summary a little inappropriate. If I had created the page I would take your comment as calling me a "racist and prohibitionist." So Potguru's idea that you were calling them that is not farfetched. You could have just cited COMMONNAME and been done with it. But that is a different issue. This entire thing has blown up to an unnecessary level and I fear that we may lose an editor that actually wants to improve the encyclopedia over it. --Majora (talk) 01:47, 21 January 2016 (UTC) - Enemies? Of course not. You were my mentor and we have been good friends for six years.
- (edit conflict) Viriditas I also was one of the people that helped Potguru on this draft. Why would Anna have to start a new stub? Why wouldn't they just be able to use the draft that was already made? It is not referenced properly but it is referenced and there is plenty of news coverage out there on
- When I moved it, I saw no comments from other reviewers. Now, digging into the history, among the long string of Potguru edits, I see [23][24]. My apologies. Those pink boxes had been removed. I have been away from AfC for too long. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:57, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Just for the record, potguru asked whether he should remove the pink boxes on the IRC channel. The manner in which the question was asked, and the answer he received (no fault on either side, IMHO) resulted in the misunderstanding that he should remove them. Chrisw80 (talk) 05:52, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- When I moved it, I saw no comments from other reviewers. Now, digging into the history, among the long string of Potguru edits, I see [23][24]. My apologies. Those pink boxes had been removed. I have been away from AfC for too long. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:57, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- I was participating in the IRC conversation between potguru (talk · contribs), Amortias (talk · contribs), Chrisw80 (talk · contribs) and I. First off, I'd personally like to know if we have a policy in place as to what to call marijuana/cannabis. If we don't have a policy, perhaps now we be a good time to make an RfC and get one set in stone. Secondly, potguru (talk · contribs) posted a response over on his user talk since he currently can't participate here. --Nathan2055talk - contribs 01:45, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Nathan, nothing is set in stone, however our stable articles on the subject of cannabis were the result of long community discussions on the topic. Given that Wikipedia prefers to use terms that are accurate and precise, it would seem a step back to open a new discussion about using a xenophobic, Prohibitionist term to replace the more traditional historical term that is free from neutrality problems. The term "marijuana" is an early relic from the reefer madness days, when government agencies tried to scare people about immigrants using the drug. Viriditas (talk) 04:20, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- I just posted at his talk about those pink boxes. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 02:10, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- This whole situation seems to have gotten out of control rather quickly, and I think we are all a little worked up over this. I would humbly (very humbly) suggest that the two parties remember that it IS possible to resolve differences of opinion calmly and that it will likely be resolved more quickly (and more to everyone's satisfaction) if we allow a civil discussion to take place. I have attempted to research "precedent" regarding use of the two terms and haven't found much, much less an actual RfC. Has an RfC been conducted regarding this that I'm missing somewhere? If so, could someone link it here? I think different folks have very different ideas about what each of these terms means and as far as I can tell the correct course on Wikipedia is to have an RfC in this situation. If one has not been conducted already, please let's have one. Thank you! Chrisw80 (talk) 05:44, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- This has already been discussed to death, which is why marijuana redirects to cannabis. The new user in question has problems with his draft article that need to be resolved, so anything else (especially a debate over terms) is a distraction. I have discussed the subject on the user's talk page, but they don't seem to be very familiar with the subject, which explains part of the problem. Not that there's anything wrong with that, as all of us engage in a bit of autodidactic editing, but there remains the problem of basic, foundational source material that remains to be answered. So instead of reinventing the wheel, I have encouraged the user to focus on improving his source material. Viriditas (talk) 06:02, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Viriditas: If the draft was already accepted, it should have been improved, tagged, or sent to AfD, not moved back to draft namespace. I completely understand potguru's anger over the whole situation. --Nathan2055talk - contribs 06:19, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- The draft was declined twice by two different reviewers. Anna says she moved it to mainspace by accident (at least I think that's what she said, correct me if I'm wrong). Viriditas (talk) 06:30, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The declines were due to it not having enough information to warrant a standalone article. It is very common for people that have had their drafts declined to come on IRC and ask questions. Dozens of people do that every day and the decline template specifically says that that is an option. So saying that they were "lobbying on IRC off-wiki" is nonsense. Frankly, the two reasoning behind the two declines were fixed in my opinion anyways. So they would have had no bearing on Anna's review of the draft. Anna is an intelligent person who can fully decide for herself what drafts are ready for mainspace. Her decision here should have been allowed to stand without you moving it right back to draftspace. Once accepted, if you don't believe it meets standards you should have taken it to AfD or fixed it yourself. Moving it right back to draftspace after an editor worked hard on something, and it was accepted, is a massive slap in the face to the editor. --Majora (talk) 06:31, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Did Anna review the article? I saw the two declines by two different reviewers, then I saw the article in mainspace, no review. Viriditas (talk) 06:33, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Anna moving it into mainspace was a review was it not? A draft does not just move on its own without a reviewer pressing the buttons. And per her move edit summary [25] she accepted it. --Majora (talk) 06:36, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- I saw no review and the problems raised in the previous reviews, such as the unsourced content, were unaddressed. Viriditas (talk) 06:40, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Viriditas:, encouraging the user to improve the article is admirable and we've been working with the editor to do so, and the article has improved materially since it's inception. Unfortunately, I think that they are misunderstanding your intentions and not sure that they are receptive at this point (they are obviously not responding well, evidenced by the walls of text on his talk page). That aside, there seems to be at least somewhat legitimate dispute regarding the terms marijuana and cannabis. Could you please provide some links for the discussions that have taken place previously regarding this? I've found a couple and the newest was over 5 years old, the environment, politics, and culture surrounding cannabis have changed in that time and I feel it may be worthwhile to have a new discussion regarding it. I understand that there is history regarding the term "marijuana", but society DOES change and so do the definitions of words. If there is something more recent I'd like to review it. With many thanks! Chrisw80 (talk) 06:58, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- I think that is a separate issue from the overall problem, and you are welcome to start a new thread over at the relevant WikiProject or on the cannabis (drug) talk page, however, I think you have it somewhat backwards, as society has changed in the opposite direction, from using and abusing prohibition language rooted in racism and xenophobia to a return to more neutral language rooted in science and history. There are an enormous number of sources on this subject, so you shouldn't have any trouble finding them. Search for "Anslinger" and "racism". Viriditas (talk) 08:24, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Viriditas:, encouraging the user to improve the article is admirable and we've been working with the editor to do so, and the article has improved materially since it's inception. Unfortunately, I think that they are misunderstanding your intentions and not sure that they are receptive at this point (they are obviously not responding well, evidenced by the walls of text on his talk page). That aside, there seems to be at least somewhat legitimate dispute regarding the terms marijuana and cannabis. Could you please provide some links for the discussions that have taken place previously regarding this? I've found a couple and the newest was over 5 years old, the environment, politics, and culture surrounding cannabis have changed in that time and I feel it may be worthwhile to have a new discussion regarding it. I understand that there is history regarding the term "marijuana", but society DOES change and so do the definitions of words. If there is something more recent I'd like to review it. With many thanks! Chrisw80 (talk) 06:58, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- I saw no review and the problems raised in the previous reviews, such as the unsourced content, were unaddressed. Viriditas (talk) 06:40, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Anna moving it into mainspace was a review was it not? A draft does not just move on its own without a reviewer pressing the buttons. And per her move edit summary [25] she accepted it. --Majora (talk) 06:36, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Did Anna review the article? I saw the two declines by two different reviewers, then I saw the article in mainspace, no review. Viriditas (talk) 06:33, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The declines were due to it not having enough information to warrant a standalone article. It is very common for people that have had their drafts declined to come on IRC and ask questions. Dozens of people do that every day and the decline template specifically says that that is an option. So saying that they were "lobbying on IRC off-wiki" is nonsense. Frankly, the two reasoning behind the two declines were fixed in my opinion anyways. So they would have had no bearing on Anna's review of the draft. Anna is an intelligent person who can fully decide for herself what drafts are ready for mainspace. Her decision here should have been allowed to stand without you moving it right back to draftspace. Once accepted, if you don't believe it meets standards you should have taken it to AfD or fixed it yourself. Moving it right back to draftspace after an editor worked hard on something, and it was accepted, is a massive slap in the face to the editor. --Majora (talk) 06:31, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- The draft was declined twice by two different reviewers. Anna says she moved it to mainspace by accident (at least I think that's what she said, correct me if I'm wrong). Viriditas (talk) 06:30, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Viriditas: If the draft was already accepted, it should have been improved, tagged, or sent to AfD, not moved back to draft namespace. I completely understand potguru's anger over the whole situation. --Nathan2055talk - contribs 06:19, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- This has already been discussed to death, which is why marijuana redirects to cannabis. The new user in question has problems with his draft article that need to be resolved, so anything else (especially a debate over terms) is a distraction. I have discussed the subject on the user's talk page, but they don't seem to be very familiar with the subject, which explains part of the problem. Not that there's anything wrong with that, as all of us engage in a bit of autodidactic editing, but there remains the problem of basic, foundational source material that remains to be answered. So instead of reinventing the wheel, I have encouraged the user to focus on improving his source material. Viriditas (talk) 06:02, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- I disagree. The original concerns with unsourced content leading to a decline were not addressed.[26] Anna has also said that she failed to see those declining comments. The article should never have been moved to mainspace. Viriditas (talk) 08:24, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
Another point that I feel I should make. If Potguru made this article outright, instead of going through the AfC process, would you have still moved it draftspace? If I saw that article at NPP I would have tagged it as needing cleanup. I may have even done a little bit of the cleanup myself. But I certainly wouldn't have drafted the article. Just because it went through the AfC process does not mean it should be treated any differently than articles that are made outright. --Majora (talk) 06:52, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- It would have been redirected. And considering the opinions of the two declining reviewers, that decision would have been supported. Viriditas (talk) 08:24, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- Asking him if it would be okay to move back to draft space for a few days
- Giving him time and guidance on what needs to be done
- Working with him to edit it
- Adding citation needed here and there and tagging
- Chopping a bit
- AfD, although I suspect that would have been a quick keep per GNG and because of no satisfactory place to merge
My review
I must respectfully disagree with Viriditas' "...Anna mistakenly moved the declined draft to mainspace...". I have looked at Draft:Cannabis dispensary again, and the reasons for the declines. I still think this draft should be in the mainspace.
I also respectfully disagree with Viriditas' "...unsourced content, were unaddressed...". That was one of the decline rationales made when the draft was but a few sentences long.
Viriditas, you said, I did not review it before moving it. I did. When reviewing and declining, details are required. When reviewing and accepting, it is common to leave no other comment or rationale than "acceptable for the mainspace" or the like. Am I right in this?
Viritidas, you say that I moved a "declined" article to the mainspace. To be fair, it was also an article waiting for review. I inspected the article, checked for duplicates, noticed lots of references that seemed good, did a copyvio check. All seemed fine, so I moved it. Even had I seen the two declines, I would have moved it:
The first decline was when it was a tiny stub. The rationale was "...note that dispensaries are covered in the Medical cannibis article, so first you should see if this fits in there because we like to keep related information together when possible....". Well, it was a stub. Now, it is way to big to fit into that article. It passes GNG and seems perfectly fit for a standalone. That rationale no longer applies, in my view.
The second decline's rationale was "Recommend merging into the Cannabis in the United States article..." The draft at that point was still only a few sentences long. Dispensaries exist in other parts of the world too. It passes GNG and seems perfectly fit for a standalone. That rationale does not apply to the current version, in my view.
In neither of those two recommended targets for the draft are is there a dispensaries section. Dispensaries are discussed here and there. The draft, considering its current size, could never fit into either of those articles, and nor should it.
I also posted part of this post at Potguru's talk. As he is blocked, I thought he might like to comment on it. I am sorry to split the discussion like that, and also sorry for the long post.
Moving on to getting this sorted out, can't all who are involved just step back and let the project cannibis people decide what to do with the draft? They can see and take the draft at face value and make up their minds. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 08:59, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- I wish it were that simple. Encouraged by your defense, I took another look at the draft. I don't see any good reason why this should be in mainspace. The entire article consists of unsourced original research written in incomplete sentences lacking proper grammar and punctuation. The entire lead section consists of an unsourced original research comparison between Dutch coffee shops and dispensaries while the body consists mostly of unsourced statements. Where sources are used, they either don't support the content at all, or are improperly used. For example, the entire section on "locating services" is sourced to citation 27, but there's nothing there supporting the paragraph, nor is it a RS. Out of 23 paragraphs, 12 are unsourced, virtually half the article, while the ones that are sourced are sourced poorly or don't support it at all. I'm also a bit concerned about another article this user created concerning marijuana vending machines which appears to consist of rumors, crystalballing, and promotional press releases by the company. Viriditas (talk) 09:20, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- You may be right. I would like to know what other reviewers would have done and have asked at AfC talk. I haven't done AfC work for ages and perhaps didn't do a thorough enough job.
- However, the main task stated in the AfC instructions is... "...to identify which submissions will be deleted and which won't. Articles that will probably survive a listing at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion should be accepted. Articles that will probably not survive should be declined..."
- As for marijuana vending machine, t'was I not Potguru who created it. I left it in this state 19 October 2013. Maybe I should send my drafts through AfC in the future. :) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 13:12, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
I think at this stage, the best course of action would be to open an AfD on the article. That is our process for determining whether an article should exist in mainspace or not. I would advise in future that once an article has been accepted at AfC, it should go through one of the deletion processes rather than attempting to revert the AfC review by moving it back to draft space. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:34, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
TFA semi-protection
Hello. Earlier today I semi-protected Banker horse (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) due to vandalism from multiple IP editors and newly registered accounts. It has been brought to my attention that this is today's feature article and was not intended as a controversial administrative action. Please review and adjust the expiration time (or remove semi-protection entirely) as warranted. Signing off, Yamaguchi先生 (talk) 02:54, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- I've shortened it to just cover while it's TFA because it's incredibly unlikely any vandalism will continue after that. And no prejudice against any other admin shortening it further if they think even that is overkill. I will note we don't seem to be as leery about protecting TFAs as we once were, so the current situation is probably fine. Jenks24 (talk) 11:47, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
Massive MFD reversal required
Hasteur has pointed out that hundreds of MfD discussions have been wrongly decided in terms of this stale theory for Draftspace. There are multiple discussions of the like today. Can someone reciew all past discussions and reverse those? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.72.96.161 (talk) 15:32, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
- I'm gonna go with "probably not". If consensus was that the pages be deleted, they get deleted. WP:REFUND is always available if anyone actually wants to work on any of this stuff again. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:41, 21 January 2016 (UTC)