Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents |
---|
This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.
When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough. Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search) |
|
Gregory Kohs' co-conspirator
Looks like someone else is also looking to make a buck off of Wikipedia. See here and my response here. His response was, shall we say, less than mature.
This earlier edit to his User Page is also, shall we say, telling. If he's so unhappy with not making any money here, perhaps someone can assist him in moving on to where he'd be happier? --Calton | Talk 00:36, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- What a weirdo. Is there any reason to have that link around? Could we blacklist it? Grandmasterka 01:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- Oh, and I like how you refuted his points one by one, as he apparently asked you to, and then he couldn't respond with more than arm-flailing and childish attacks. Good work. Grandmasterka 01:58, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- Well, A.B., I personally know someone (& who has attended all of the Wikimanias so far) who has been doing exactly what Kohs wants to make a killing from -- but the Wikipedia article on his company was placed on WP:AfD. His Wiki is also one of the ten top Wiki sites according to this person, too. So I'd be surprised if Kohs is the subject of an article in Wikipedia soon. -- llywrch 02:44, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I think this is just another sucker taken in by Kohs, who is very charming and persuasive when he wants to be. Kohs' project looks to be dead in the water, despite his undoubted SEO skills, so I can see why he is desperate for links from Wikipedia. He can get lost. Guy (Help!) 09:37, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- <sarcasm>I know several people who have been mentioned in newspapers and been on TV, can I make articles about them?</sarcasm> This guy's just trolling; I think a short block would be good, and if he keeps on going, indefblock. (Revert, block, ignore trolls.) · AndonicO Talk 13:42, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, I went to Meta, but Kohs has popped up to dispute my nomination and the admin there doesn't seem to really understand the history or be convinced by the evidence of linkspamming. Some more opinions there would be helpful. --Calton | Talk 04:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Hmm, despite yet another warning, User:Andman8 still figures spamming is OK. I'm sensing a slow-motion limits-testing. --Calton | Talk 20:20, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
is anyone monitoring his recent changes? because he could be blocked if he spams again. it's getting a little annoying.--Camelcast 10:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
User:Marioemily101 Chronic Edit Warring
User has an extensive history of vandalism and edit warring, first in List of best-selling video games and most recently in Insane Clown Posse. User has made a habit of "correcting" already well-sourced material, and has displayed hostility when edits are restored to their sourced versions. User has been warned against 3RR violation and edit warring. Though user is not currently in violation of 3RR (edits are more than 24hrs apart) the user has persisted in altering data that has been accurately sourced in the database of RIAA album certifications even after having been warned.[1][2][3]--Rosicrucian 00:35, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I concur; this user is being disruptive on Insane Clown Posse. - Merzbow 23:17, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- User now been issued level 2 and level 3 warnings for introducing incorrect information into the article, with the edit pattern continuing.--Rosicrucian 15:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Also, admittedly belatedly, I've restarted discussion on the article's talkpage in hopes of keeping this civil. We've discussed this on the talkpage before, but that was prior to this user actively editing on the article. We'll see if that works out, I guess.--Rosicrucian 15:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Page has been deleted three times so far and recreated three times by User:Ned Scott.
User reverted the MfD closure by an admin and went ahead and recreated the page.
I find this to be disruptive.
-- Cat chi? 05:14, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- The MFD was incorrectly closed, that is all. -- Ned Scott 05:17, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Indeed, Doc glasgow's closure was based on a misunderstanding of policy. —David Levy 05:23, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- If you've a problem with how the MfD was closed, please make a request for review at WP:DRV. gaillimhConas tá tú? 05:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- What misunderstanding was that? User pages can be speedied on demand. Put a note in the deletion log with the user's new name if it's that big of a deal. --BigDT 05:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- WP:CSD#U1 points to Wikipedia:User page#How do I delete my user and user talk pages? for details on how to handle such situations. There it says "...If there has been no disruptive behavior meriting the retention of that personal information, then the sysop can delete the page straight away in order to eliminate general public distribution of the history containing the information. If the deletion occurs immediately, others may request undeletion if they feel there was in fact a need to retain the page. In such a case, the page should be undeleted and listed on Miscellany for deletion for a period of five days following the deletion of the user page...." -- Ned Scott 05:30, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- What "disruptive behavior" do you want to retain? It's a redirect. If it's that big of a deal to everyone, what about using protected titles? We can make User:White Cat/New identity, protect it, and transclude the old page. That way, it will be a redlink, but anyone going there will get a message telling them where to find his new identity. --BigDT 05:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Ned Scott has overridden the deletion of the page by 4 admins (2 speedy 2 MfD close) so far. -- Cat chi? 05:37, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Ned Scott, I count 4 reverts on the user page itself and 3 on the MFD. I strongly suggest you not revert either again. --BigDT 05:42, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I am probably one of the least "process wonky" people you'll see on Wikipedia, and I can understand the desire to be bold, however I do think that we should extend respect to our colleagues by not arbitrarily reverting *fD decisions simply because we don't like the outcome. Mr. Scott has been edit warring on this matter and is close to violating our three-revert policy, and while I tried to re-instate the original decision, I don't feel as though my further participation in this matter will help resolve things. Cheers all gaillimhConas tá tú? 05:43, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I generally don't condone unilateral reversals of other sysops' closures, but it's difficult to fault Ned for undoing one that was based entirely on a verifiably incorrect premise. Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. —David Levy 05:45, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I'm still waiting to hear why it was an incorrect premise. Unless that redirect somehow is evidence of bad behavior, I don't see any reason in policy to deny the request. --BigDT 05:48, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Except the part where other editors might express a reason to keep the redirect? I did just quote that to you.. Even without that, we have lots of bad behavior if you think that is the only reason for keeping the redirect. -- Ned Scott 05:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- You appear to have misread the quoted text, BigDT. A history of disruptive behavior is a reason for the speedy deletion request to be denied. If it's fulfilled, "others may request undeletion if they feel there was in fact a need to retain the page. In such a case, the page should be undeleted and listed on Miscellany for deletion for a period of five days following the deletion of the user page." (emphasis mine)
- I don't, however, know what gave you the idea that Cool Cat has no history of bad behavior. Perhaps you were misled by the fact that his block log wasn't transferred to his new username (another reason why it's important to inform users of the connection). —David Levy 06:09, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- If I am a disruptive user, I should be blocked indefinitely. I request that I be blocked indefinitely if I am a threat to wikipedia. Take it to arbcom or community sanctionboard.
- That policy was intended for pages with {{Sockpuppet}} and etc on them. My block log is available with or without the redirect on my userpage which I provide as a courtesy and I am neither expected or required to do so. The redirect neither generates a link to my block log nor is it in any way informative. The speedy deletion request was granted but was overturned by Ned Scott contradicting two administrators via "recreating" the page and two other administrators by reverting the MfD 3 times and recreating the page once.
- -- Cat chi? 07:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I've reverted you twice, and you've reverted me twice. -- Ned Scott 05:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Once this is over I'm certain this will warrant an inclusion on a certain BJAODN page *sigh* CharonX/talk 13:31, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
User:Jeffrey O. Gustafson & User:Jeffrey O. Gustafson/Finally I am able to keep my userpage from being edited AND keep it a red link, too. Thank you, cascading protection! Delete per User:Jeffrey O. Gustafson and User:Jeffrey O. Gustafson/Finally I am able to keep my userpage from being edited AND keep it a red link, too. Thank you, cascading protection!. Wikiewok 13:48, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
User:Doc glasgow And User:Doc glasgow. Will you pursue him as well, Ned? Wikiewok 13:51, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Did you bother to read the MfD debate, or did you simply insert your comments (similar to the above)?
- Those are the editors' current usernames. Anyone who sees such a red link is fully capable of identifying the individual in question, viewing his contribution history, and contacting him with any concerns.
- User:Cool Cat was not a user page, and no one has argued that Cool/White Cat is required to have one. It could be a redirect to his talk page or contribution history, or it could be a page explaining the name change. The point is that Cool/White Cat has provided no rationale (apart from "I want so") why some sort of connecting page shouldn't exist at that title. He's acknowledged that this inconveniences others and plainly stated that he doesn't care because it isn't his problem. —David Levy 18:17, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I have speedy-deleted User:Cool Cat and closed the MfD. This has become a ridiculous and disruptive waste of time. Newyorkbrad 14:49, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Also, ironically, if ever the intent was to hide the connection between the old and the new username, that effort has now massively backfired. >Radiant< 16:47, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Support Brad's actions. -- nae'blis 17:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I'm interested to read your explanation of how an MfD debate conducted in precise accordance with the user page guideline was "ridiculous and disruptive." Personally, that's how I would describe the two out-of-process closures. —David Levy 18:17, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Radiant, that was not the intention. There is a very easy way to clear all my block logs and past history as people might already know. It is as easy as 4 mouse clicks and few keyboard buttons. To clear all block log/user history: first click on "sign out" (1) link, then click on "sign in/register" (2) link, then click "register username" (3) link. On the new menu type in your new identity and password. Then click "submit" (4) button. I feel the paranoia is unnecessary.
- Users are neither expected nor required to provide any information on their past accounts or past blocks on their userpages. All that is available in the form of logs. Users should however be encouraged to provide such courtesy to create an environment of transparency. It's completely optional.
- Unless you are willing to take it to the arbitration committee or any other form of dispute resolution do not complain about my past contribution as a pretense of your argument. I am not a criminal requiring special tagging. Do not treat me like one.
- I am more than open about my history, more than anybody else if I may boldly claim. How many of the users have a link to the blocks they received on their userpage?
- Many of the contributors in this very history has a block log although none have links on their userpage (I haven't actualy checked everybody). User:David Levy, your block log indicates you had been blocked twice. You were once blocked for 24hrs for trolling on Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Werdna 2 (although later pardoned as it was a "Totally unjustified block" (according to the block log)) and secondly you were blocked indefinitely for what I believe is the deletion of the main page (the log isn't perfectly clear). Your account was probably among the admin accounts compromised which you have recovered from (since you were unblocked). All this is "artificial/nominal controversy" irrelevant to your worth as an editor to the project. You (David Levy) are far too valuable to the project to be dismissed just over your block log. I'd like to point out that the logs are available for public view even if you do not put them on your userpage. I'd like to make it clear that this wasn't intended to be an attack to you, just a mean to self expression. I am sure practically everyone in this discussion had made at least one mistake or several others in the past some even leading to blocks.
- -- Cat chi? 19:36, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I happen to be in disagreement with David Levy at the moment about the inane MfD under discussion here, but neither of the blocks in his block log had any substance. The first was reversed by general consensus almost instantaneously (and led in part to the blocking admin resigning his adminship), and the second was borne of confusion and also had nothing to do with David having done anything wrong. Let's not bring that up again, okay? Newyorkbrad 19:39, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- For the record, the second block was performed by the hijacker of a sysop account (as part of a rampage) in response to my undeletion of the main page. (My account was not compromised.)
- Thank you, Brad, for noting the irrelevance of these blocks. :-) —David Levy 19:59, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I happen to be in disagreement with David Levy at the moment about the inane MfD under discussion here, but neither of the blocks in his block log had any substance. The first was reversed by general consensus almost instantaneously (and led in part to the blocking admin resigning his adminship), and the second was borne of confusion and also had nothing to do with David having done anything wrong. Let's not bring that up again, okay? Newyorkbrad 19:39, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I've reverted brad's closure of the MFD. Brad and Doc might have their own views about this, but that's what the MFD itself is for. Policy does not back up a speedy closure/delete, and in fact says the opposite. It is completely inappropriate for these admins to have closed the MFD and deleted the redirect. -- Ned Scott 22:12, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Get some perspective. Trebor 22:14, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
And now User:BigDT has re-closed it and protected the MFD page. How the fuck is this acceptable? -- Ned Scott
- Because it's an unimportant no-brainer. Take it to DRV if you want to prove a point, or else take a step back and think about what you're arguing over. Trebor 22:20, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I didn't close the MFD. I reverted your un-closing of it. There is a message at the top of that page in big red letters asking you not to modify it. When that message is ignored repeatedly, protection is used to enforce the closing. This isn't anything novel. You may want to read Wikipedia:Don't edit war over the colour of templates. If the guy wants his user page deleted, who gives a frick? I'm the fifth admin to delete the page and you're the only person to re-create it ... take the hint and move on with life. --BigDT 22:47, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I should take the hint and allow myself to be bullied off the issue? If five vandals vandalized an article, and I was the only one to restore it, should I take a hint then? Get off your high horse, because you are not in a position to force such a discussion closed. -- Ned Scott 22:51, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Or ... take the hint and stop recreating the page. The appropriate way to contest a deletion is at WP:DRV, not by recreating the page or reopening the deletion discussion. --BigDT 22:56, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- As two other admins have also pointed out, taking it to DRV just wastes time and causes more disruption. If we see something was done wrong, we can simply FIX IT and move on. But no, you think it's better that we make a bigger deal out of this and waste more of our time. Thanks, BigDT, you really helped. -- Ned Scott 23:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Or ... take the hint and stop recreating the page. The appropriate way to contest a deletion is at WP:DRV, not by recreating the page or reopening the deletion discussion. --BigDT 22:56, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I should take the hint and allow myself to be bullied off the issue? If five vandals vandalized an article, and I was the only one to restore it, should I take a hint then? Get off your high horse, because you are not in a position to force such a discussion closed. -- Ned Scott 22:51, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Slow news day, I see. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 23:06, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- ROFL. Thanks, I needed that. ;) --BigDT 23:15, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- It's now on DRV: Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2007 May 30#User:Cool Cat -- Ned Scott 05:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- So... who's going to add this to WP:LAME? DrumCarton 11:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Mike18xx (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a disruptive editor who frequently engages in incivility, tendentious editing, and edit warring, as demonstrated by his block log. he has shown complete disdain for Wikipedia policy for well over a year now, and he continues unabated- with recent incivility (i.e. [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10]), edit warring (for which he was blocked recently, please see his contributions post-block), tendentious editing (i.e. [11], [12][13]). he also refers to me abusively as "Intaqallah", both on- ([14], [15]) and off-wiki, the latter being when he was unashamedly soliciting meatpuppets to "vote-away" in an AfD and edit war on select articles, in the interests of gaming Wikipedia. he does not heed the warnings given to him by multiple administrators, and his talk page is testament to that. ITAQALLAH 10:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- What do you want us to do about it? ViridaeTalk 11:17, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- whatever you deem reasonable in ceasing the personal attacks, incivility, and other inappropriate behaviour. i do request some sort of intervention, apologies if i wasn't specific with that. ITAQALLAH 12:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I suggest that Itaqallah should cool down a bit. He himself reverts at least as much as Mike18xx, and misspellings of his user name such as "Intaqallah" can hardly be seen as "abusive", unless one is somehow very focused on finding "reasons" for making allegations of "personal attacks". If Itaqallah (better check that again for typo's, or it will come back hard on me it seems...), is so sensitive about how other editors spell his user name, then perhaps he could choose a new more common English user name, that other editors are more likely to remember the spelling of. This being said, Itaqallah has been extremely active in his attempts to get users that disagree with his personal opinions removed and banned from the English Wikipedia, and among other things he has previously made attempts to get me banned from at least parts of the 'pedia [16]. Perhaps Itaqallah should try to work with other editors instead of harassing them with his constant attempts to get them banned. For now it seems that he haven't made a single contribution to Mike's discussion page, except for a couple of templates regarding an image. In my opinon, Itaqallah should consider actually working with people, instead of harassing them with requests about them get banned. -- Karl Meier 12:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- whatever you deem reasonable in ceasing the personal attacks, incivility, and other inappropriate behaviour. i do request some sort of intervention, apologies if i wasn't specific with that. ITAQALLAH 12:10, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- This issue is more serious than "Itaqallah should consider actually working with people" Karl. My main concern would not be Mike 18xx's uncivility or his 9 times blocks, mainly for uncivility, but solliciting meatpuppets. This issue re solliciting meatpuppets at Faith Freedom International blog has been discussed a couple of months ago here at the AN/I and now it is getting disruptive with Tauphon (talk · contribs) as well. So action needs to be taken. I cannot do anythng as i've been involved in a debate w/ Mike in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wikiislam (conflict of interests?) and probably my action would not be appropriate as my username would be a "not-so-curiously Middle Eastern surname" for Mike 18xx. So which is important? "Itaqallah needing to work better w/ others" or all these disruptions and uncivility? Meatpuppeting should stop once and for all and Mike 18xx should consider actually working with people in a civil manner. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 13:22, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Frankly, I don't see why it should be a problem that an editor go to a website that he has created an article about, and mention this on the sites forum. The users of the websites is likely to be some of the best informed people regarding what perhaps makes it notable, and their input might very well be useful in the process of determining whether or not it is indeed notable and should be kept or deleted. Another fact is that the point about soliciting meat-puppets doesn't make sense either. First, an AfD is not a vote, it is a debate, second, any "votes" from new and/or unregistered contributers doesn't count. It doesn't make sense to blame him for the actions of Tauphon. Mike, like all other editors is only responsible for his own actions, and he has as far as I know never supported him in any wrong doing anywhere. Any speculations about what might have motivated him to come here is also only just that; Speculations that is entirely irrelevant to Mike's good standing on Wikipedia. What I frankly more worried about is Itaqallah's obvious stalking of editors outside Wikipedia, where he take it upon himself to monitor various forum's for comments made by Wikipedians, in order to attack them here. As you properly know, this is not the first time he has used the results of his off-site monitoring efforts to attack people here. As for his comments regarding your surname, I'd wish he haven't done that. As an administrator that actually seems to genuinely care about remaining reasonably neutral, I don't think you deserve to have such accusations and suspicions raised against you. I don't know if he has already apologized for it, but perhaps he will do the right thing if you ask him? As for his block log, I believe it is also important to notice that he has only been blocked one time the last eight months, and that was for a 3RR. The other issues in the block-log seems to be mostly a thing of the past. I believe the best solution would be that Itaqallah give up his project monitoring editors outside Wikipedia and end his constant attempts to have editors disagree with banned. Mike should on the other hand be more careful about what he accuses people off in heated moments and remember that this is against policy. It would properly help to clean the air a lot if he admit that he was wrong about making such accusations and insinuations. -- Karl Meier 15:18, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- This issue is more serious than "Itaqallah should consider actually working with people" Karl. My main concern would not be Mike 18xx's uncivility or his 9 times blocks, mainly for uncivility, but solliciting meatpuppets. This issue re solliciting meatpuppets at Faith Freedom International blog has been discussed a couple of months ago here at the AN/I and now it is getting disruptive with Tauphon (talk · contribs) as well. So action needs to be taken. I cannot do anythng as i've been involved in a debate w/ Mike in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Wikiislam (conflict of interests?) and probably my action would not be appropriate as my username would be a "not-so-curiously Middle Eastern surname" for Mike 18xx. So which is important? "Itaqallah needing to work better w/ others" or all these disruptions and uncivility? Meatpuppeting should stop once and for all and Mike 18xx should consider actually working with people in a civil manner. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 13:22, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Well, as you've noted from my words, all i ask from Mike 18xx is to behave in a civil manner and avoid controversies. He's just not a newbie. We don't have to waste our time arguing about matpuppeting. It is just highly inappropriate according to the policy. We don't have to waste our time arguing about Mike 18xx meatpuppeting: Everyone please attend to the revert war on Wikipedia's FFI page concerning Intaqalla's repeated attempts to marginalize and POV the WikiIslam section. All I need are one or two people to revert. Please also keep track of whether or not Intaqalla violates Wikipedia's 3RR policy. So as you see, the solliciting isn't limited to votes but to edit warring and game the system to get someone else blocked for 3RR. Noway!
- As for my username, i just don't need an apology as it doesn't matter if someone calls me X or "my mamma". He is invited to read these quotes.
- "We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box." - Anon.
- "They stick you with those names, those labels -- ‘rebel’ or whatever; whatever they like to use. Because they need a label; they need a name. They need something to put the price tag on the back of." - Johnny Depp -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 16:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Karl, i don't really have the time to deal with much of what you wrote about me - not only is much of it pretty fanciful, you certainly are not an impartial party here given our history. you noted that Mike had only one block in the past eight months. that would appear reasonable, were it not for the fact he went on a hiatus in October, returning days before he was blocked again. you employ an incredible amount of spin to downplay Mike's soliciting of meatpuppets, gross incivility, and his deliberate baiting, yet you appear quite eager to take pot-shots at my own person for issues which you have blown out of proportion. ITAQALLAH 17:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Itaqallah: I am sure that you don't have much time replying to comments about your stalking and endless attempts to have editors that disagree with your personal opinions banned. Tracking down Wikipedian's down off-site must be a time consuming business. It is true that Mike18xx was not very active on Wikipedia during a few months, and it is also true that he was "welcomed" back by you with sometimes sarcastic comment such as "having trouble logging in Mike?". Anyway, you don't have to reply to my comments. You just have to end your crusade to have editors disagreeing with your personal opinions banned. -- Karl Meier 18:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- FayssalF: To post what was posted at that forum is of course the most appropriate one can think of, but at the same time I believe off site staking of Wikipedian's is something that much worse. I believe it is something that can really discourage a lot people from editing here. I still remember BhaiSaab who took his off-site stalking as far as calling the workplace of a person that he disagreed with. The intend of his off-site stalking I believe was to drive people he disagreed with away from the site, just like Itaqallah use his off-site "investigations" to get rid of people that he disagree with. -- Karl Meier 18:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Karl Meier, it should go without saying that off-wiki solicitation of meatpuppetry is inappropriate, and I see nothing wrong with Itaqallah keeping an eye on it. Can you blame him, seeing as he's been twice been specifically identified as an enemy editor? Soliciting meatpuppetry is bad enough, but urging FFI participants to scrutinize particular editors borders on harassment, and is completely unacceptable. See WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not a battleground.Proabivouac 01:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- FayssalF: To post what was posted at that forum is of course the most appropriate one can think of, but at the same time I believe off site staking of Wikipedian's is something that much worse. I believe it is something that can really discourage a lot people from editing here. I still remember BhaiSaab who took his off-site stalking as far as calling the workplace of a person that he disagreed with. The intend of his off-site stalking I believe was to drive people he disagreed with away from the site, just like Itaqallah use his off-site "investigations" to get rid of people that he disagree with. -- Karl Meier 18:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Itaqallah: I am sure that you don't have much time replying to comments about your stalking and endless attempts to have editors that disagree with your personal opinions banned. Tracking down Wikipedian's down off-site must be a time consuming business. It is true that Mike18xx was not very active on Wikipedia during a few months, and it is also true that he was "welcomed" back by you with sometimes sarcastic comment such as "having trouble logging in Mike?". Anyway, you don't have to reply to my comments. You just have to end your crusade to have editors disagreeing with your personal opinions banned. -- Karl Meier 18:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I had extensive interaction with him on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jihad Watch (2nd nomination), and not in an exactly "allied" way - however, I never found him to be especially incivil, or in any way disruptive - rather, he just seems to be determined, outspoken, and edits with feeling. I actually quite liked discussing with him - although my opinion on the matter was eventually disagreed with by the debate, I still think my discussions with him played an important role. --Haemo 21:45, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Oh I don't know. I picked more or less the top four contributions of his just now [17], [18], [19] and [20] and in my view there isn't a collegial edit in the bunch. I'm not sure this user has learned much from previous blocks. I don't think I'd care to edit in the same areas as him as it would be less than pleasant. That's the definition of a (mildly) disruptive editor if you ask me. I admit bias, I've blocked him before after he didn't heed warnings to be less disruptive in his approach. I'd support at least an admonishment that his approach is in need of changing. But of course, pure civility blocks don't often work. ++Lar: t/c 22:06, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Assuming that there has been an effort to resolve this dispute, a user-conduct RfC might be considered. I suppose this section qualifies as such an attempt if there has not been one already, and I urge Mike18xx to respond to it in a productive spirit.Proabivouac 00:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
All measures should be preventive and not punitive. Following this logic, Mike 18xx should refrain from meatpuppeting and chill out in order to avoid being uncivil. If there was no meatpuppetry there would have been no off-site stalking. Anyone has the total legitimate right to follow my off-site activities which are directly related to the functioning of wikipedia. In this case, Itaqallah found out that there is a massive meatpuppetry based on the All I need are one or two people to revert strategy. Would you accept to ask people to do the same Karl? I am certain you wouldn't. This is an unacceptable thing in wikipedia. We stand firm against harming the smooth process of how stuff work here. Itaqallah doesn't go foruming, voting and disrupting the off-wiki site. Mike 18xx has been doing just that. So i don't quite understand how you legitimate Mike's actions by accusing Itaqallah of something that wikipedia has no business w/. One is free to browse any page in the net and report to wikipedia about things that could harm it. I tell those people that We don't vote and we don't count them & We do not encourage edit warring indeed- we just discuss. I'll leave the civility issues for anyone else who might be interested to discuss them with Mike. So whether he would follow out train or else he could just easily change at the next station. There are many other busy passengers as there are trains. We don't need passengers avoiding payment (come to vote once in a year) and we need our train to preserve and protect its standards so we can attract more passengers (new editors who have much more to give to this project than a single seasonal vote). Anyway, it is time for the user in question to respond. Itaqallah has already said his bit. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 02:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Oh, please.... To paraphrase Rodney King, Can't we all just be honest? They say I'm tendentious, uncivil and distruptive -- my goodness, you'd almost think I was being accused of not getting my facts right in the articles...except I'm not being accused of that here. In fact, I'd submit that this business is going the way it's going because I am getting my facts right in the articles, and some people find it very unpleasant when a cherished belief is skewered on the spit of a reference. To boil this broth down to its essence, FayssalF and Itaqallah do not appreciate the contributions of many editors (of which I am only one) to various Islam-relating articles, and are well-versed in laying about the Administrative Cudgel to get their way. This has been going on for years, and I doubt it's going to stop anytime soon. I see little to alter my expectations that it's probably going to get worse in the future. Personal mail: I urge you to respond to them with a productive spirit, aiming to address these complaints and resolve the dispute. --Proabivouac. I receive strong indication that there will never be any satisfactory "resolution" to the "dispute" short of complete "Submission" (a double-entendre) before the concerted campaign to savage articles by bad-faith AfDing absolutely everything in sight and drawing upon their own networks of supporters to swing in and post "delete"s regardless of merit. What can't be deleted will be neutered, merged, smooshed, crunched, reverted, marginalized and mangled down into as small of a nearly invisible and innocuous a pellet as possible. Maintaining a "productive spirit" is extraordinarly difficult amidst such destruction.
- You will do whatever you are going to do, and whatever the resultant effect upon article veracity is will in turn affect Wikipedia's credibility as a source of accurate and pertinent information in matters occupying the great void between dry scientific obscura and cartoon episode guides. Such credibility is forfeit in the blink of an eye in the internet age, and, once lost, virtually impossible to recover.--Mike18xx 05:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Mike18xx, think practically: let's suppose just for the sake of argument that Itaqallah and FayssalF want you gone, as you say, because you are adding facts to the articles that they don't like. Okay. They can't just say that, because that's not against policy, so they point to things like incivility, meatpuppet solicitation and edit-warring instead. Okay. So don't leave yourself vulnerable by doing them. There, you see, I've accepted your assumptions at face value, without judgment or rebuttal, and the way forward is still exactly the same.Proabivouac 05:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- We want you gone or not gone. Choose your train. I am focusing on MEATPUPPETING. It is in bold. I am not talking about your uncivility (i am proud of my name as you are - plus don't forget that your username is biblical and therefore it is middle-eastern as well. So next time be accurate and say Arab or Muslim so people would understand better what you mean). So talk about it. Don't talk about your edits as i haven't mentioned them at all. I may not like edits of a dozen of editors but still this is wikipedia where anyone can edit. Meatpuppeting encouraging edit warring is not acceptable. Instead of aknowledging what you've done wrong you are still trying to talk about cakes. We got rules here. As per Proabivouac, don't leave yourself vulnerable by doing them. So again and again, you stop or you'll be stopped. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 15:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I know perfectly well why you don't want to talk about article veracity, FayssalF. As regards to the rest, I dare you to claim with a straight face that Wikipedia Muslims aren't organized. Why, look at this! See? Everybody's doing it -- except that one side isn't mounting a hypocritical jihad over artificial differences in order to silence its critics.--Mike18xx 20:49, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- that's right. myself and Matt57, a user who i frequently disagree with (to put it lightly), are part of a cabal, because he asked me to prove Ibn Warraq was a reliable source (which he isn't). you've shot yourself in the foot in spectacular fashion, Mike, and have simply vindicated peoples' comments about your approach. ITAQALLAH 22:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Mike18xx. Till this moment, you haven't answered and defended yourself re the accusations which are backed by facts above. Failing to do that, i'd consider this thread as a waste of time and choose another path as per Proabivouac → RfC. What do you think? Would you acknowledge your wrongdoings and promise to stop them or would you gamble by going thru an RfC? -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 11:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I know perfectly well why you don't want to talk about article veracity, FayssalF. As regards to the rest, I dare you to claim with a straight face that Wikipedia Muslims aren't organized. Why, look at this! See? Everybody's doing it -- except that one side isn't mounting a hypocritical jihad over artificial differences in order to silence its critics.--Mike18xx 20:49, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
To chime in, I only recently came across this user in the Jihad Watch AfD. That and the post history shows very clearly a user with an anti-Islam axe to grind, with "not-so-curiously Middle Eastern surname" being a rather notable slur. Tarc 13:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- A quick look through your contributions on articles such as Mohammad Amin al-Husayni and Hamas makes it obvious to me that you yourself are not entirely without opinions, Tarc. I can understand that you may be annoyed that the article that you mention above wasn't deleted, and that Mike voted against your wishes, but the media attention it has received should have made it obvious to you that the articles subject was clearly and without any doubt notable. The debate just reflected that reality. -- Karl Meier 20:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Karl, what can be said about X can be said about Y. Please focus on the issue or else we would just fill this thread w/ unnecessary talk. People are talking about incivility, edit warring and i personally focus on meatpuppeting. We got all these issues and you are talking about the opinions of someone else? Irrelevant and i am afraid if this goes on i'd just consider it as an avoidance to discuss the issues on hand. Mike is being accused w/ incivility and meatpuppeting and that are supported by facts presented by Itaqallah. So let's talk about incivility and meatpuppeting. Would Mike18xx aknowledge that? If yes, would he promise to stop it? Talking about anything else outside this scope would be irrelevant. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 20:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- The accusation that Tarc made was that Mike18xx is somehow biased in his contributions. I believe it is very relevant to see such accusations in the light of what appear to be the opinions of the accuser himself. In Tarc's case, a quick look through his contributions gives me reasons to believe that his opinions are very different from the opinions of Mike18xx. -- Karl Meier 06:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see why that has any bearing on the accusation - if Bill O'Reilly told me Ted Kennedy was a drunk, does that affect the truth of the allegation? Moreover, I don't see why "bias" is a big deal, in either direction - the point is if they meet Wikipedia standards for good editing practices. --Haemo 06:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Can we get back to the subject please? -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 11:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Tarc wrote that Mike18 has an "anti-Islam axe to grind". Whats wrong with that? Some people like Islam here, some dont. It shows up in our edits. If anyone hates candy, they'll go to the Candy article and talk about its harmful effects. Someone who loves candy will put in the benefits of Candy. Thats how an article is made from different viewpoints. Same is the case with Islam. I raised this issue of "POV" on a Talk page of a policy here but no one responded there. I dont like Islam, there and it shows up in my edits. There are many people who like Islam a lot and that shows up in their edits. I dont see anything wrong with that. All that matters is that viewpoints contributed are relevant, balanced with each other, sourced and scholarly etc, thats all. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 13:59, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- In response to Karl, yes, I have a certain point of view. We all do. The problem is that a single-minded POV coupled with such a vile and bigotry-tinged attitude is what leads people like Itaqallah to drag people like mike into the administrative noticeboard. Don't think for a moment that I am comparable to this person. And no, I was not "upset" that the article was not deleted. That was a rather silly/spurious comment to make. Finally, if you're going to trawl though my contributions, then be sure to take note that they run the gamut from the Brady Bunch to Gertrud (novel), as well as Middle East affairs. Tarc 14:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see why that has any bearing on the accusation - if Bill O'Reilly told me Ted Kennedy was a drunk, does that affect the truth of the allegation? Moreover, I don't see why "bias" is a big deal, in either direction - the point is if they meet Wikipedia standards for good editing practices. --Haemo 06:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- The accusation that Tarc made was that Mike18xx is somehow biased in his contributions. I believe it is very relevant to see such accusations in the light of what appear to be the opinions of the accuser himself. In Tarc's case, a quick look through his contributions gives me reasons to believe that his opinions are very different from the opinions of Mike18xx. -- Karl Meier 06:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Karl, what can be said about X can be said about Y. Please focus on the issue or else we would just fill this thread w/ unnecessary talk. People are talking about incivility, edit warring and i personally focus on meatpuppeting. We got all these issues and you are talking about the opinions of someone else? Irrelevant and i am afraid if this goes on i'd just consider it as an avoidance to discuss the issues on hand. Mike is being accused w/ incivility and meatpuppeting and that are supported by facts presented by Itaqallah. So let's talk about incivility and meatpuppeting. Would Mike18xx aknowledge that? If yes, would he promise to stop it? Talking about anything else outside this scope would be irrelevant. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 20:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Rash of reverts in Allegations of state terrorism in Sri Lanka
After a controversial AFD closure a number editors including an admin are indulging in reverting and counter reverting without a single intent to discuss these changes without ever reaching consensus. Please look into it. Thanks Taprobanus 12:57, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Issues related to Srilanka and Tamil have to be sorted out once and for all via the dispute resolution process. Many admins tried to help but in vain. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 13:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I'd have to say that WP:RS is pretty clear on this one. Since when was Tamilnet not a partisan source and a random tripod site, random videos posted on google, info from websites of openly activist organisations acceptable. Blnguyen (cranky admin anniversary) 03:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I was being bold and simply removing sources which are clearly not RS, and I noted this as such in my edit summary. The problem is some singletopic people on either side of the fence randomly adding whatever suits them. Blnguyen (cranky admin anniversary) 03:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- There another thread below discussing this as well. I'd suggest discussions to be held at one place. So i'll be commenting below. Thanks Blnguyen. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 16:07, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Matthew has repeatedly changed the {{Memoryalpha}} {{Memory Alpha}} {{HarryPotterWiki}} and {{hpw}} templates citing WP:CONSENSUS for doing so. This has resulted in 6 or so edits to the Memory Alpha templates over the past 72 hours, sufficiently spaced out to avoid any blatant 3RR blocks. When asked where a discussion took place regarding the Memory Alpha templates and where consensus could be found, Matthew responded on my talk page with the reason "Silence equals consent". It's quite clear that there is not silence, nor a consensus for the changes Matthew has made.
Something needs to be done regarding Matthew's behaviour here and I'm open to suggestions on whether a strong reprimand would the preferred option, or whether there is a need for a block and perhaps further editing sanctions. Nick 19:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- To set things straight: I'm enforcing policy > Phil's POV pushing. I intend to file an arbitration case in due course, principally due to the misuse of administrative abilities. Matthew 19:51, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- You've accused Phil of POV pushing, you've also accused me of conflict of interest. I assume you can substantiate both of these - David Gerard 19:57, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- What POV am I pushing, exactly? Also, which administrative abilities have I misused? Phil Sandifer 20:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- It should be noted, Matthew first nominated Template:FreeContentMeta for deletion. When this was obviously failing to generate consensus, he nominated Template:HarryPotterWiki, a child template of the first. When this started going badly he decided to just bugger the failure to get support on TfD and revert away. It is... an unfortunate style of edit war. Phil Sandifer 20:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I believe that an arbitration case would be both unwise and ridiculously premature. This looks like a completely ordinary edit war to me. Crotalus horridus 20:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- A rather ill-advised one, don't you think? --Tony Sidaway 20:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Let's just stop the edit warring, and see what comes out of the discussion about these prettified external links/ads for free-content wiki's. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 20:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Just popping this down for the record. This is a case of, as far as I can tell, a single edit warrior warring up to what he considers the limit of his "entitlement" to edit war against multiple opposition [21] [22] [23], then waiting a couple of days and starting again [24] (note disingenuous edit summary) ignoring warning messages about disruption [25] and continuing [26] .
In addition it seems that Matthew engaged in a brief but very broad edit war with User:TTN on the following articles:
- The Shadow Duelist, Part 2 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Boss Luffy Returns! A Dream or Reality Lottery Trouble (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- A Man's Promise, Luffy and the Whale Vow to Meet Again (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- The Shadow Duelist, Part 1 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Completely Infuriated! Kuro vs. Luffy, Final Battle! (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- An Unexpected Guest! Sanji's Food and Gin's Grace (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Battle! The Black Cat Pirate Crew, Battle on the Slope! (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Desperate Situation! Beast Tamer Mohji vs. Luffy! (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- List of The A-Team episodes (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Honorable Liar? Captain Usopp (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Even if I Die, I Won't Kick You! Sanji's Manly Chivalry (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Fukurou's Miscalculation - My Cola is the Water of Life! (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Grand Duel! Zoro the Swordsman vs. Cabaji the Acrobat! (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- The Famous Cook! Sanji of the Floating Restaurant (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Fear, Mysterious Power! Pirate Clown Captain Buggy! (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- The Detective Memoirs of Chief Straw Hat Luffy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- The First Obstacle? Giant Whale Laboon Appears (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- The Blueprints Aren't Passed! Franky's Decision (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- The Criminal is Boss Luffy? Chase the Vanished Great Sakura Tree (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Luffy's Revival! Kaya's Life and Death Confrontation (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Revealing The Conspiracy! The Pirate Caretaker, Captain Kuro! (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Retrieve the 5 Keys! The Straw Hat Crew vs CP9 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Protect Kaya! Usopp Pirate Gang Takes Action! (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Power of the Devil Fruit! Kaku and Jyabura Transform (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- I'm Luffy! The Man Who Will Become Pirate King (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Morgan vs. Luffy! Who is This Beautiful Young Girl? (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Luffy's Past! The Red-Haired Shanks Appears! (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Bubble User Kalifa! Nami Draws Near to the Soap's Trap (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Zoro's New Technique Explodes! The Katana's Name is Sogeking? (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- You are a Special Animal! Gaimon and his Wonderful Friends (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
- Who Will Win? Showdown Between the True Powers of the Devil (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Coupled with singular unwillingness to engage in meaningful discussion, this is problem behavior. --Tony Sidaway 21:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
As well as the article Juice Plus. I agree with Tony. TTalk to me 21:03, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- As unpolitical the behaviour of Matthew is, when it comes to the reverting of the redirecting of the external link templates to the interwiki boxes, Matthew was right. There was no proper consensus on the replacement of this link template with the linkbox. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 21:59, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- It the behavior which is the problem. There are more sensible ways of disputing bold actions than massive reverts. --Tony Sidaway 23:38, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Twist
This case needs some further review. Yes matthew TfD'ed {{FreeContentMeta}}. He did this at 18:15, May 26, 2007 [27]. He had every right to dispute this new style of external link. However it was considered to be WP:POINT behaviour because of the relative small edit war here: [28]. However that was not to say that the TfD was totally out of line. There was a little bit of discussion for less than one day [29], which was going nowhere, because the same people of the previous edit war were involved.
From here on, I'm sticking to the Memoryalpha case, but almost the same applies to the HP case... Until recently all pages used {{Memoryalpha}} in this revision: [30] On May 27, 2007 00:57 User:Phil Sandifer created a new version of this external link template [31]. On 16:24, May 27, 2007, Phil redirected the textual version of the templated to the "pimped out" version of the template. [32]. This is where Matthew protested against and he reverted. He did not like this "pimped out" style and did not see why it became necessary all of a sudden to force this upon everyone. A lot of reverts were the result and that was some bad judgement of several people. Matthew had every right to question wether this was at all needed, although not trough an editwar.
Phil then on the 28th requested [33] User:^demon to run his bot to replace all occurences of the old {{Memoryalpha}} to the newly styled {{Memory Alpha}} This bot started running at 01:37, May 28, 2007 [34] and made most of the replacements. This has made this entire TfD of FreeContentMeta explode of course. Now this new style was being forced upon people, while the TfD of the "parent"-template wasn't even finished, and also made this whole thing terribly hard to revert.
To summarize:
- Matthew behaved bad for edit warring
- Phil behaved bad for pushing his pretty boxes out there, while some people were objecting to it, and he didn't give a lot of warning to other users.. He could have easily waited with his MA changes to see the result of the TfD. Why the hell couldn't the two templates have co-existed for a while ?
- David took Phil's side without looking further then to revert Matthew and not considering the fact that others might object to this as well.
Personnally i'd like to see the textual version back on all the pages. If people want a pretty box they can add it to each and every article they want, but this is not something you should force upon every article by redirecting the old version and having a bot rename all the old inclusions to the new inclusions. Yes Matthew was out of line, but it wasn't a baseless issue as some are trying to argue. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 23:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I also took Phil's side. He did not make these changes without support. To state that Phil was wrong to edit the wiki is simply incorrect. He handled it very well. --Tony Sidaway 00:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Yes you are also involved yes. And i do think he was wrong. These were a lot of inclusions, and the edits have been of such a type that it was made difficult to revert and didn't leave people much choice as to what kind of link they want. At least not for the ordinary uninitiated editor. This was a major change to these external link templates and it could have been dealt with a lot better. There is BOLD, and there is pushing your box trough peoples throat without telling them. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 00:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- To clarify a tad more. Any call upon WP:BOLD is limited by scope and the ease with which bold changes can be reverted. Trough the forced redirects and template transclusion replacement this BOLD box became an action that surpassed the limits of WP:BOLD. If this needs to be reverted, then we need to do merges of edit histories or other stupid stuff to keep this proper.--TheDJ (talk • contribs) 00:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Nonsense. It's easy to fix. You just have to undo the redirect and change the template to include its own bullet point and you should be back to normal. Phil Sandifer 00:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- To clarify a tad more. Any call upon WP:BOLD is limited by scope and the ease with which bold changes can be reverted. Trough the forced redirects and template transclusion replacement this BOLD box became an action that surpassed the limits of WP:BOLD. If this needs to be reverted, then we need to do merges of edit histories or other stupid stuff to keep this proper.--TheDJ (talk • contribs) 00:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Yes you are also involved yes. And i do think he was wrong. These were a lot of inclusions, and the edits have been of such a type that it was made difficult to revert and didn't leave people much choice as to what kind of link they want. At least not for the ordinary uninitiated editor. This was a major change to these external link templates and it could have been dealt with a lot better. There is BOLD, and there is pushing your box trough peoples throat without telling them. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 00:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- This badly misrepresents what happened. First of all, I asked on several pages about converting the Memory Alpha and Wookieepedia templates to the box versions. There were no objections, and so I acted, which was reasonable and in line with WP:BOLD. The bot was not used to change templates - that would be silly, since the templates were at that point equivalent. The bot was used to clean up a relic of the old version of the template - a stray bullet point that appeared in the external links section with no item after it. I removed this only after being asked by people to. Other than that, there was no objection on the talk page of the Memory Alpha templates or on the Star Trek WikiProject for my changes. The only objections came from Matthew, who did not even bother until today to come to the talk pages of the templates and then only contributed two comments before going off to run an unapproved bot. Phil Sandifer 00:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- It might misrepresent your intentions, but for most of the editors of the pages this will be how it is perceived. It's cool that you asked and that no one responded. Fact is that just not that many people actively follow most of those talk pages (believe me i know). I'm quite sure that most people only became aware after you started your changes, and many people still won't have noticed (well perhaps after the rename of the template, because that triggers a lot of watchlists). However badly Matthew handled it, he had an actual concern and was the first to respond in any way whatsoever. I'm just saying that regardless of Matthew, the case could have been handled better. For instance by simply having both versions of the template co-exist for a while. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 00:37, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- And by putting the original template up for TfD. That's usually also a great way to get some actual people involved in these cases. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 00:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- So I posted on the talk pages of the templates and the relevant WikiProjects, got no opposition, went through with the change, got requests for some clean-up but still no opposition, and somehow I'm the bad guy anyway? Phil Sandifer 00:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- And by putting the original template up for TfD. That's usually also a great way to get some actual people involved in these cases. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 00:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- It might misrepresent your intentions, but for most of the editors of the pages this will be how it is perceived. It's cool that you asked and that no one responded. Fact is that just not that many people actively follow most of those talk pages (believe me i know). I'm quite sure that most people only became aware after you started your changes, and many people still won't have noticed (well perhaps after the rename of the template, because that triggers a lot of watchlists). However badly Matthew handled it, he had an actual concern and was the first to respond in any way whatsoever. I'm just saying that regardless of Matthew, the case could have been handled better. For instance by simply having both versions of the template co-exist for a while. --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 00:37, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I have proposed a solution to deal with this edit conflict here: User talk:Phil Sandifer#Proposed_solution_to_Memory_Alpha --TheDJ (talk • contribs) 11:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Unblock request by Jeffrey Vernon Merkey
Jeffrey Vernon Merkey has posted a request that he be unblocked. Please see User talk:Jeffrey Vernon Merkey. I am referring the request here for discussion and consensus. All good-faith contributors are welcome to present an opinion here; any trolling or SPA accounts interfering with the discussion will be blocked. Newyorkbrad 19:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I would support an unblocking. He'll be being closely watched anyway and is clearly interested in editing the Cherokee and connected articles, in which he unquestionably has expertise, and states he doesnt want to get involved in wikipedia: type pages, SqueakBox 19:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Did you actually read what he wrote? All that about Citizendium and Conservapedia? This is editing Merkey-style: do what I say or your rivals get the cash instead. This cannot be permitted. Quite apart from all the stuff about trolls, which he seems to define rather loosely. Moreschi Talk 19:54, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- He has actually said the cash isnt available any more and our rivals are irrelevant, SqueakBox 19:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- No. He does not recognise that he has done anything wrong, quite apart from the rest of the message, which can be briefly summarised as "Let me do whatever I want or you lose out on the money". We can't allow this. It's patent intimidation. Moreschi Talk 19:52, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Concur. It's just a varient of a legal threat, and you turn your noses up a them as well. HalfShadow 19:54, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Also concur. I've been off the wiki for a bit so I'm still not sure I have a clue as to what the hell is going on, but there's nothing in that unblock request. There's a threat and some complaining, but not really anything pertaining to the block or why he should be unblocked. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 20:06, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I saw no relevant information in his unblock request. (Hint: relevant information would involve him recognizing where he went wrong and saying he won't do it again.) Friday (talk) 19:57, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed, he continues to argue that the Golden Rule is not "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", but "He who has the Gold, Rules". While that probably works elsewhere, it fails miserably when applied to a community based site like WP. He is still angling for special, preferential treatment based on him being a "major donor". Until that changes, there is nothing to discuss SirFozzie 19:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Perhaps we should be debating why exactly he should be blocked not why he should be unbl;ocked, SqueakBox 20:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I thought that was pretty much settled, Squeak. For disruption, breaches of CIVIL and AGF. SirFozzie 20:04, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- To me, it appears as though he's being a dick. HalfShadow 20:09, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I thought that was pretty much settled, Squeak. For disruption, breaches of CIVIL and AGF. SirFozzie 20:04, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm inclined to say no at this time. If Jeff had left his point 1 off, I might be more inclined to agree to an unblock, but as Moreschi succinctly summarized, this would appear to me to be a a thinly veiled attempt by Merkey to buy his way back in and I don't necessarily see a reason to condone that sort of attitude. If he had honestly restricted himself to Cherokee related articles on his return, this would be a different story (the only contact I've ever had with Merkey was well over a year ago on a Cherokee related article and it was not an unpleasant experience despite his reputation). Given his attempts to redefine Wikipedia policy I don't see much value in having him edit right now. IMO, the Foundation can unblock him if they are so inclined. All that said, I don't think the continuation of a block right now should preclude him ever being unblocked. He's been the subject of a fair bit of trolling that appears to be intended to cause just this outcome (i.e. a Merkey block) and I'm not especially happy about the trolls being rewarded as it were.--Isotope23 20:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)- Per the clarification he gave on his talkpage, I'm striking my comment. If Jeff voluntarily stayed away from policy/guideline discussions and stuck to article/talkpage edits, I'd have no issue with him being unblocked.--Isotope23 00:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Concur with all those above. Merkey's answer to wanting to be treated as "a normal editor" is that he'll stop his donations. This shows that he doesn't yet understand that what he donates is completely unrelated to how he's treated. Whether he donates $10M or nothing, if he acts like "a normal editor" he'll be treated as one, and if he acts in ways that require a ban, he'll be banned (and has been). The money is completely unrelated, and the only person who seems to think it's not is Merkey himself. When he recognizes how his actions here crossed the line so many times, and attempts to change that about himself, he'll be allowed back in whether he's still donating money or not. --Maelwys 20:08, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Personally, I don't see how such a relentlessly arrogant and litigious individual could be a net positive to the project, no matter what he actually brings to it in terms of positive contributions. He clearly does not understand the fundamental mission of Wikipedia or the Wikimedia foundation, and appears to have the sort of sense of entitlement that would get his coffee spat in at the local Starbucks. Haikupoet 20:09, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- There is no consensus for the controversial block in the first place. He has knowledge and insight that would benefit the project. It is time to unblock and hopefully the editors who like hounding him will stop or they will find themselves on the wrong end of a block. This block has rewarded the trolls as well as jerks. I say no to the trolls and yes to the unblock. :) - Mr.Gurü (talk/contribs) 20:19, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- To be clear, did you just pull out the whole "if you're not with us, you're a [terrorist/jerk/troll]" thingie? That's not particularly conducive to a civilized discussion. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 20:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I wonder if I should be mildly insulted...? HalfShadow 20:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I say no to the trolls, but I also say no to the unblock. SirFozzie 20:37, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Sounds like an 'if you're not with me, you're against us all' to me. Are we really going to let 'I've got the money, so you all better like me or I won't buy the ice cream' be the new rule for Wikipedia? Would that go under WP:WHOWANTSICECREAM? Leave him blocked. Legal threats (Indians will shut down WP if yu don't like me), dick moves (I'll take my money elsewhere) and general incivility. Take your money, there's the door, don't let it hit you in the ass, bye bye. ThuranX 20:42, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Money for ice cream. What a naive statement as if wikipedia doesnt need continuous money to survive, let alone grow in a fiercely competitive market, SqueakBox 20:57, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Whatever Merkey's faults are, your comment is unproductive and needlessly inflammatory. —freak() 20:53, May. 29, 2007 (UTC)
- Why are we still discussing this? I thought it was old news that Merkey was a troll. Can't we get back to doing something more productive than wiki-jerking over this? EVula // talk // ☯ // 20:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I completely agree. Merkey has caused way more than his share of problems and drama. Our integrity is not for sale. --ElKevbo 21:31, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I'm totally behind the block, probably more than the blocker. If he's all lovey-dovey with the Foundation, they can always intervene and unblock him. Until that happens, his outright ridiculous attitude of entitlement is enough justification for me to want to see him stay blocked. Lexicon (talk) 20:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Please understand that it is almost certain that Merkey has never contributed anything to the Foundation. Ben-w 20:55, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- The same cant be said for him and wikipedia, which is where our remit begins and ends, SqueakBox 20:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Indeed, let's focus on editorial contributions rather than financial ones. —freak() 21:00, May. 29, 2007 (UTC)
- The same cant be said for him and wikipedia, which is where our remit begins and ends, SqueakBox 20:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Leave Merkey blocked. He obviously doesn't care to follow Wikipedia guidelines and policies. In addition, the threat of cutting off donations if he doesn't get his way also strikes me as a form of legal threat. That said, I'd also block the editors who have been harassing Merkey. --Alabamaboy 21:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- He's had his second chance, he blew it. I see no reason to give him a third chance. Even if he's only editing the Cherokee articles he's still more than likely to be disruptive in the process. --Tango 21:08, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Support blocking as stated above. Also protecting his talk page to avoid future disruptions. Its clear this user won't changed and has already caused problems with one user. TTalk to me 21:14, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
It would be a really nice thing if somebody from the Foundation would either verify or deny his claims of $10M in contributions. Corvus cornix 21:18, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Why? Would we unblock him if he donated that much? Can someone buy unblocks now? --Golbez 21:20, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- No, not at all, and sorry if I didn't make that clear. It would be nice to get a final yea or nay on his claim. If it's a nay, then it's been a lie all the time, if it's a yea, it's still just a "so what?" Corvus cornix 21:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I thought there was a donations listing page... I know I found my name on there when I made my donation (back during the last donation drive). I agree that it's a moot point, though. EVula // talk // ☯ // 21:52, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Here is Jeffrey's response to this thread [35], SqueakBox 22:04, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I like how the first additional response is "leaving aside the fact that I am a MAJOR contributor" and then the next is basically "Now let me tell you as a contributor.." - he's still trying a hold-up. --Fredrick day 22:12, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Ah. He's an anonymous contributor. Corvus cornix 23:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- There appears to be some confusion in his response. From my observations, which I admit are limited compared to most others, the problem wasn't that he was a good editor who received bad feedback after making claims about his donations. The problem was that he tried to justify disruptive edits with the fact that he made donations. Taking away his donations doesn't solve everything, because he still doesn't seem to be admitting that any of his edits were disruptive. Yes, there are trolls here that should be banned as soon as we can find them because their only purpose on Wikipedia is to harass him. No, their harassing behavior does not justify much of his behavior. alanyst's request may seem somewhat extreme, but other than the point about being banned immediately, they are all standards which should be met by every editor. --OnoremDil 00:05, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- The argument for blocking is the likelihood, based on past experience, of continuing disruption. I see two arguments for unblocking: first, organized harassment should not be allowed to be a factor in driving anyone from the project; second, if his work is likely to improve the encyclopedia, then it's better to have him editing than not. Ignoring all the stuff that has little to do with the project, he says he wants to edit articles in an area I know nothing about, and that he will follow policy while he does it. If others who do know about native American history support unblocking him, I would not object. Tom Harrison Talk 22:35, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- But he also says he refuses to be limited as to what and how he edits. Corvus cornix 23:15, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Please leave this alone for now. I am talking to Mr. Merkey and to others. These debates add fuel to the flames, I'm afraid. Guy (Help!) 23:18, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Any editors who want to know about donations should go to foundation:Benefactors and read for themselves, rather than speculating. Uncle G 00:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Above Endroit mentioned the recent RFCU which confirmed User:Davidpdx as a puppetmaster and was discussing additional possibilities for checkuser at the vote. I presume that the puppets will be blocked, but wonder if there should also be some action against the puppetmaster in this case. In additional to vote fraud (with his socks) he attempted a disruption of the RM poll by canvassing literally millions of people by writing an article for a major Korean newspaper which concluded with a sentence about how to vote in the poll, picked up later by major Korean portals and Yahoo news Korea. The talk page itself required semi-protection, required a great deal of clean-up effort, and turned the already controversial proposal into a downright mess.
We know this user is the one who made the article because he created a sock with the name of the article author before the news went to print and voted again in the poll. There are few worse examples typifying disruption on Wikipedia.
If someone feels this is too similar to Endroit's post on the subject delete or merge it; it seems Endroit is asking for discussion on checking the users in the poll (as well as blocking Davidpdx's socks). My question is about Davidpdx himself, and is specifically about not only the violation of sockpuppetry but advertising to/canvassing a nation of people. --Cheers, Komdori 20:51, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Since Davidpdx is now unlikely instead of confirmed, this problem largely goes away (although that is some extreme incivility when you tell editors "you will pay for this" and "I you to hang", I guess having been found guilty by checkuser when you're not might prompt some to being upset). It might be worth permanently blocking Lions3639 since they obviously are solely a bad faith editor (one edit, that was to kick off the disruption). --Cheers, Komdori 09:49, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
User:Apostrophe disruption
I'm involved in this content dispute, so I shouldn't use any admin tools myself, but...
Apostrophe (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) who is a long-term editor in apparent good standing has decided for no apparent good reason to ignore discussion or consensus building after I objected to and reverted pending discussion some merges he BOLDly made. He has now reverted the merges back in 3 times on each of two pages: [36] on Endeavour (Pirates of the Caribbean), [37] on Dauntless (Pirates of the Caribbean), and twice [38] on Interceptor (Pirates of the Caribbean). I believe that multiply reverting to an un-discussed merge and refusing to discuss it in favor of just redoing it is disruption, and it's clearly in violation of WP:MERGE ("Merging is a normal editing action, something any editor can do, and as such does not need to be proposed and processed. If you think merging something improves the encyclopedia, you can be bold and perform the merge, as described below. If the merger is controversial, however, you may find your merger reverted, and as with all other edits, edit wars should be avoided. If you are uncertain of the merger's appropriateness, are not sure where or how to merge, or believe it might be controversial, you should propose it on the affected pages.").
I would violate 3RR to revert anymore and I shouldn't make admin decisions regarding someone I'm in a disagreement with. I would like to request uninvolved admin attention... Thanks. Georgewilliamherbert 21:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Addendum: I'm perfectly happy for there to be a merge proposal and discussion, and if I wasn't at 3RR I'd put the articles back with mergeto tags as appropriate, etc. (I probably should have earlier) But that's a grey area when treading on the edge of 3RR, so I would rather someone else review and do so if you feel it's appropriate. Georgewilliamherbert 21:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I've notified Mr. Apostrophe of his involvement in this incident board. --əˈnongahy ♫Look What I've Done!♫ 21:33, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Ah, good. I should'a done that. My bad. Georgewilliamherbert 21:39, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Are the pages being reverted because there was no discussion or because people disagree with the information being merged? If it's the latter, that seems fine; a discussion should happen. But if you're just reverting just "because there was no discussion", that makes little sense. It's doing no more than forcing unneeded discussion. TTN 21:43, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, I don't get it - the only reason for opposing the merge is due to it being an "undiscussed merge". That's not exactly compelling. --Haemo 21:47, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I've made it clear to Apostrophe that I object to the merge; I'm happy for a discussion to conclude to merge anyways, but I'm not ok with him just merging over my objections and requests to discuss it. I'm not wonking this insisting that he just discuss it to check some boxes on a form somewhere that procedure was followed; if there was no objection, WP:BOLD would be fine here as elsewhere, but that has to give way to process when there are objections. Georgewilliamherbert 21:52, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- It really doesn't look that way. It just seems that the whole thing is based upon if discussions always are required on "controversial" mergers or not. I see no comments like "the information is important" or "it can be brought up to standards." The merger isn't automatically controversial with just "discussion is required" messages because they're often just used to stall or wikilawyer. I'm sorry if I missed a comment that did express actual desire to keep them. TTN 21:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- This got somewhat legalistic sort of quickly because he initially didn't even believe we had a merge process documented anywhere. If in that discussion I didn't clearly enough communicate that yes, I object to the actual changes, then let me do so here and now. No, I don't want articles redirected; I believe the merges are bad for the Encyclopedia. Georgewilliamherbert 22:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- It really doesn't look that way. It just seems that the whole thing is based upon if discussions always are required on "controversial" mergers or not. I see no comments like "the information is important" or "it can be brought up to standards." The merger isn't automatically controversial with just "discussion is required" messages because they're often just used to stall or wikilawyer. I'm sorry if I missed a comment that did express actual desire to keep them. TTN 21:58, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I've made it clear to Apostrophe that I object to the merge; I'm happy for a discussion to conclude to merge anyways, but I'm not ok with him just merging over my objections and requests to discuss it. I'm not wonking this insisting that he just discuss it to check some boxes on a form somewhere that procedure was followed; if there was no objection, WP:BOLD would be fine here as elsewhere, but that has to give way to process when there are objections. Georgewilliamherbert 21:52, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
You received uninvolved administrator attention at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Wikipedia:Merging and moving pages BOLDly guidelined. However, it isn't an answer that you liked. The issue got legalistic because you were wikilawyering, not Apostrophe. You've abused the vandalism rollback tool several times in an edit war; you have threatened to abuse more administrator tools; and your logic here is entirely circular. This is explained in detail at the aforementioned noticeboard section. Uncle G 22:53, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- There appears to be a pattern of people focusing on the wikilawyer issues, which the argument with Apostrophe clearly degenerated into. However, as I have said, and will say again: Yes, I do have a content dispute with doing the merges. Policy says not to merge against opposition without process; I oppose, he won't follow process. If I have not effectively communicated all of this then that's my fault, but the situation remains that he's trying to bulldoze merges through against opposition without discussion. Even if there wasn't a policy document on the subject, that's against other general policy.
I have not intended to abusively rollback, and wasn't aware that I'd used it more than the one goof I knew of last night. If anyone wants to pursue the issue feel free to; the record is whatever it is. I don't think rollback versus undo makes any difference to the end result on those edits.
It's apparent that there have been communications breakdowns in this, in addition to the root problem. Georgewilliamherbert 23:06, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Policy says not to merge against opposition without process; I oppose, he won't follow process. — You opposed solely on the grounds that he didn't follow process (same diffs as before) and created a wholly Kafkaesque set of hoops for an editor to jump through for no real reason.
Apostrophe performs a bold merger. You state that you are reverting because xe hasn't followed procedure, and revert. Xe asks that you do not revert simply because some process hasn't been followed and reverts. You point to WP:MERGE and revert again. Xe points out that you weren't actually supported by what you are pointing to, and reverts.
Characterizing this as Apostrophe trying to bulldoze things through without discussion, when xe plainly has discussed this with you, on your talk page, is wrong. The problem here is not xem. You've been beating Apostrophe over the head with rules, yet you have still to articulate any concrete objection to the merger, in the several places that you've now discussed this, apart from the fact that it didn't follow a process that it isn't required to follow. Your circular logic continues to be that the merger must be discussed because it was objected to, it was objected to solely because it didn't follow a process, and it didn't follow a process because it wasn't discussed. Uncle G 01:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I did not oppose soley on the grounds that s/he isn't following process. I oppose because the merges are bad, taking large contentful referenced pages on a topic of high interest and turning them into small unreferenced uninteresting sections in a collection page. The articles were not stubs, were not bad articles, and should not be merged. The whole policy thing has become a red herring. It's important because Apostrophe is disruptively refusing to follow the policy, put Merge tags on the articles and discuss on the talk pages as they are required to do if they want to push a merge against opposition. But I am not opposing because the policy was not being followed. I understand that I may not have communicated that effectively last night. I do not understand why you are disregarding my clear statements today (4 hours ago now) that stated that yes, I do have a content objection to the merge. If it was unclear previously it should have been clear since then. Please knock it off. Georgewilliamherbert 01:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- It's important because Apostrophe is disruptively refusing to follow the policy — Once again: Apostrophe was not disruptive, and was not "refusing to follow the policy". Your continued mis-characterization of the other editor in your dispute, over and over again here, is part of the problem. And yes, you were objecting solely because the process was not followed. You said exactly that, several times over.
And I see that you are still, despite what we've told you here, mis-characterizing this as Apostrophe not discussing this, when (see diffs above) xe did discuss this with you, on your talk page, explaining why you are wrong — the very same explanation that you've had here from me and others. If the "policy thing" is a red herring, it is one that is entirely of your own making, when you resorted to wikilawyering. Yet, despite your assertion that it is a red herring, you are still beating the editor over the head with assertions of "improper process" and failure to follow policy. You don't get to have your cake and eat it here. You don't get to claim that it's a red herring that is irrelevant to the discussion, whilst you are still using it as a club to beat the editor with. Please stop beating the editor over the head. Xe isn't the one who is in the wrong here. The person who needs to knock things off is you.
I do not understand why you are disregarding my clear statements today (4 hours ago now) that stated that yes, I do have a content objection to the merge. — Because they aren't clear statements of a concrete objection. You simply said that you objected to the merger, because it was "bad", as if that were enough. We already knew that you objected, and that the reason that you thought that it was "bad" was because xe, in your own words, "merged a bunch of POTC ship articles in to a single "minor characters" article without any discussion on the article talk pages". Saying "I object because the merges are bad" does not magically turn your prior objection into a concrete one. It doesn't clarify a thing. What you have just written is the first time in any discussion, on your talk page, on Apostrophe's talk page, on either of the places on the Administrators' noticeboard that you've brought this up, and on the talk page of WP:MERGE, that you have actually articulated anything like a concrete objection.
As for your objection, quite what makes you think that Endeavour (Pirates of the Caribbean), an article with zero citations and that had been marked as lacking cited sources since April 2007, is "referenced", or that the "large" articles were turned into "small" sections, when List of minor characters in Pirates of the Caribbean#Endeavour is word-for-word identical with the prior content of the merged article and contains everything that the article did (and even a few things extra), is mystifying. Uncle G 09:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Endeavour is the weakest of the articles, arguably. The strongest that s/he zapped was Interceptor (Pirates of the Caribbean), which is a much bigger and better article, and is also the one that another editor has undone the last redirect on. If you think that the weaker ones should get merged, then argue it on the talk pages. When Apostrophe merged the Interceptor article, less than half the content ended up on the merged article [39]. This is the strongest case for not merging. I objected to the whole series of merges, but perhaps some will stand up on community review. Cherry-picking the weakest of the merges objected to, as opposed to reviewing all of them and noting which one someone else had also reverted and restored, is not being helpful.
- In circular logic, what goes around comes around. Your own arguments turned circular a while ago. I've been attempting to clarify that I have content objections to the merges, and separate policy objections to the procedure followed in response to those objections. Whether I communicated well last night / this morning or not, I think that the cards have all been on the table for some time. It is factually true that I object to the content of the merges - the Interceptor article at least should be separate, and probably the others, from a content point of view. It is factually true that WP:MERGE says that if a merge is opposed, the merge proposer is to place the tags and talk about it on the talk pages. It is factually true that Apostrophe refused to believe that there was a WP:MERGE policy when initially confronted, re-merged several times after objectiosn and reverts, and has not placed merge proposal tags on articles or started discussions on article talk pages.
- Regardless of earlier communications difficulties, which may well be my fault, Apostrophe has not followed policies s/he is now aware of, regarding objections s/he is now aware of. Assuming good faith, the communications failure earlier can explain their initial actions. They have not fixed what they did, however. Per policy, the burden of initiating merge discussions was theirs, and they didn't do that to date.
- Another editor has un-merged the Interceptor article. Tomorrow midday, I am going to unmerge the other two if Apostrophe or someone else doesn't first, apply the MERGETO / MERGEFROM tags as appropriate, and initiate talk page discussions. I have no objection to anyone else going first; I'm going to wait well past 24 hrs from the start of all this to avoid 3RR technical objections if I have to be the one to do it. The community can consensus on whatever result it ends up with on the article talk pages. Georgewilliamherbert 10:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Uncle G has it right. There is no such thing as a "merge out of process". I would suggest you take a step down from this bureaucratic approach. >Radiant< 11:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- It's important because Apostrophe is disruptively refusing to follow the policy — Once again: Apostrophe was not disruptive, and was not "refusing to follow the policy". Your continued mis-characterization of the other editor in your dispute, over and over again here, is part of the problem. And yes, you were objecting solely because the process was not followed. You said exactly that, several times over.
- I did not oppose soley on the grounds that s/he isn't following process. I oppose because the merges are bad, taking large contentful referenced pages on a topic of high interest and turning them into small unreferenced uninteresting sections in a collection page. The articles were not stubs, were not bad articles, and should not be merged. The whole policy thing has become a red herring. It's important because Apostrophe is disruptively refusing to follow the policy, put Merge tags on the articles and discuss on the talk pages as they are required to do if they want to push a merge against opposition. But I am not opposing because the policy was not being followed. I understand that I may not have communicated that effectively last night. I do not understand why you are disregarding my clear statements today (4 hours ago now) that stated that yes, I do have a content objection to the merge. If it was unclear previously it should have been clear since then. Please knock it off. Georgewilliamherbert 01:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Policy says not to merge against opposition without process; I oppose, he won't follow process. — You opposed solely on the grounds that he didn't follow process (same diffs as before) and created a wholly Kafkaesque set of hoops for an editor to jump through for no real reason.
- Uncle G is correct in every count, and articulates it better than I did. If you had simply provided reasoning beyond "this is out of process" (which is nonexistent), as you finally did today, I would have left the matter alone. I'm male, by the way. =) ' 07:20, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Just a quick note, I've been asked by Phil to leave a note here about Matthew who in addition to the above concerns, has now been found to be using an unapproved bot on his main account, editing at speeds in excess of 10 edits per minute. The block is for 24 hours. Hope this is acceptable to all. I must point out I've not looked into why/what Matthew was actually editing, I'm simply reporting the block. Nick 00:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Ah, I was wondering about that. I had meant to ask why his edits were coming in so fast in those long runs. Perhaps it will scale the problem back a bit if he has to go on foot. --Tony Sidaway 01:37, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- He told me about the bot beforehand on MSN, but only that it was a regex bot, written in Perl. He did explain the edits (User:Matthew/tv.com), though, but I think it was foolish running an unapproved bot. Will (We're flying the flag all over the world) 02:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- It was an unapproved bot, and it was running on his main account instead of a bot account. The edit summaries didn't even note it was a bot. It was very, very bad bot usage, and something that required immediate action as the bot was still running. Phil Sandifer 03:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I note he has been unblocked already, and he has told me he will not be botting again soon and will seek BAG approval first. >Radiant< 11:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Vandalism only account
Please block Notsharon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). This account hasn't had a full set of warnings so there's no point posting it on AIV, but it's an account user by a vandal who has targeted the Craig Charles article since July 2006 using IPs registered to Flinders University or 58.84 prefixed IPs and repeatedly inserted libellous allegations. The latest vandalism was to move the article to Famous Rapists. Thanks. One Night In Hackney303 03:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Blocked. While not a vandalism-only account, [40] and [41] make this user's intent clear. ˉˉanetode╦╩ 06:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Harassment Charge By Bishonen Against Ferrylodge
I had not intended to visit ANI prior to pursuing dispute resolution, but now think it might be a good idea, and I look forward to any advice people can offer here, prior to dispute resolution.
I was recently blocked by Bishonen (an administrator), after she accused me of harassment and gave me a block warning.[42] [43] Allegedly, I was harassing another administrator, KillerChihuahua ("KC"). The incident I am reporting here is action by Bishonen, and not action by KillerChihuahua; KillerChihuahua did not make the accusation of harassment, and did not give me a block warning.
The unblock request, which is here, was denied not because of harassment, but rather "for the purpose of disengaging you from your dispute with KillerChihuaua." I disagreed with that unblock decision (because I had already promised to disengage from KillerChihuahua before the block), but this ANI incident report is not about the block or the unblock request. This incident report is mainly about Bishonen's preceding accusation of harassment. I deny the harassment accusation, and want it resolved. Unfortunately, the background is a bit complicated, and I will try to be as brief as possible.
Here's what happened, pretty much chronologically, and with as little excruciating detail as possible. This whole controversy began regarding an organization called the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists ("RCOG"). On May 23, an editor who I do not know (and never communicated with) wrote in Wikipedia's fetal pain article that RCOG is "pro-choice".[44] Another editor (not I) installed a "citation needed" tag.[45] I then did some research and provided a citation, since that was the only "citation needed" tag in the whole article (an article to which I had contributed substantially).[46] KC then reverted, saying in the edit summary: "Please provide a source that this government institution is 'pro-choice' - abortion is legal in the UK, and that the official govt. chartered college are to make that safe is NOT pro choice."[47] Also in the discussion thread at fetal pain, KC said:
“ | The way you have it phrased, they are a "pro-choice group" - they're not. You've found a source which shows their sympathies, or professional view, or whatever, is not anti-abortion. It may even establish their position as pro-choice, I'm not sure - I'll have to think that one over. But the RCOG is not a pro-choice group.[48] | ” |
So, KC distinguished a "pro-choice group" from a group that has a "pro-choice position" on a particular issue. I researched some more about RCOG (see above where KC said "please provide a source") and I learned that RCOG is not a government institution, that most of their members live outside the UK, that its governing documents do not specifically limit its activities, that many of its members do not have medical degrees, et cetera. So, I concluded that the best place to deal with all of this would be at the article on the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists.
At that RCOG article, I added quite a bit of info unrelated to abortion.[49] [50] [51] Plus, I wrote: "RCOG takes a pro-choice position that abortion 'is an essential part of women's healthcare services and adequate investment and workforce is essential.'" This was reverted a couple times by another editor (not KC), without any discussion at the talk page. Ultimately, I concluded that I needed to quote an even more unambiguous expression of pro-choice sentiment from RCOG, in order to satisfy everyone that RCOG has in fact taken a pro-choice position on an issue.
So, I edited the RCOG article to say: "In the United Kingdom, RCOG takes a pro-choice position against 'reduction in the time limits for abortion.'"[52] Then things started getting nasty (or nastier). KC showed up at the RCOG article, reverted this edit, and accused me of being disruptive, et cetera.[53] I left it reverted. I figured that this was becoming interpersonal, so the place to take this kind of thing is to the user's talk page. So I went to KC's talk page, where I asked her to assume good faith.[54] Instead I got further accusations: edit warring and bad faith.[55]
Ultimately, I said to KC: "Show me once other than here where I edited any Wikipedia article to characterize a position against reduction of abortion time limits as a 'pro-choice position.'"[56] KC replied that "the contested edit is characterizing RCOG as 'pro-choice'", and she cited a bunch of diffs.[57] And she said: "If I have to dig around and line up diffs of your disruptive editing again, I'm not going to bother to do it to satisfy your demands." But that was obviously incorrect, because KC had already emphasized (see blockquote above) that saying RCOG is a "pro-choice group" is entirely different from saying that it takes a "pro-choice" position on a particular issue. The edit we were arguing about (i.e. a sentence saying that RCOG opposes reduction in the time limits for abortion) was a position about a particular issue, and indeed a political issue about what the governing laws should be. So I quoted the blockquote above back to KC, and I said as clearly as I know how: "You yourself said yesterday (and I agreed) that there is a difference between characterizing RCOG as a pro-choice group, and characterizing a particular position of RCOG as pro-choice."[58] I also gave her some of her own medicine: "I hope I will not have to waste my time dealing with your disruptive editing again," and my edit summary said "let us not engage in smear jobs."
At this point, Bishonen jumped in.[59] KC had never asked me to leave, much less to tone down what I was saying. But Bishonen says at KC's talk page: "That's enough of that. Ferrylodge, you're done posting on this page. Do it again and you'll face a block for harassment." Needless to say, I was surprised. I felt that I was being harassed by KC. I've never been charged with "harassment" before. I felt like this was all a big trap (and it still seems to have been a trap); after all, KC had told me that being a pro-choice group is different from taking a pro-choice position, and I then edited accordingly, only to be accused of edit-warring, disruption, and bad faith for making the very distinction that KC had explicitly urged. After the harassment accusation, I left a message at Bishonen's talk page saying I thought that KC was the one being malicious here.[60]
So those are the basic facts. I will not describe here the subsequent block; that block was upheld on other grounds which I find very unpersuausive, but that is a somewhat separate matter from the harassment accusation. I very much believe that I was not harassing anyone, and therefore the harassment accusation was false. Do you agree or disagree? What sort of dispute resolution would you recommend? Bishonen has already rejected mediation.[61] I feel very strongly that the harassment allegation was unfounded.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ferrylodge (talk • contribs)
- Some kind of mediation is needed. In the UK the term "pro choice" is loaded, and is not appropriate for an encyclopedic entry about RCOG, which is a medical body. You've said lots of stuff about RCOG which doesn't agree with their webpage. One example would be about membership -- they've been very clear about who can be a member, and what type of member they can be, and what the requirments for that type of membership are. The term "Pro choice" does nothing to add any useful content to the article. Why is it there? It's obvious that a group of obgyns will include many people who do not disagree with abortion. Allow the term "pro choice" to be taken out, find a suitable alternative, and let people make up their own minds. Dan Beale 12:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- In response to this specific point, I'd agree with that - "pro choice" is an american term and is biased towards american thinking and it's use would indicated an unbalanced articel as it tries to impose an americian context on external agencies, social and political systems such as the RCOG. --Fredrick day 12:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Dan, I appreciate your comment, but this Incident Report is not about whether the word "pro-choice" should be taken out or not. You say,"Allow the term 'pro choice' to be taken out." It already has been taken out. Whether it should be reinserted is a different question. The question here is: is Bishonen correct that I harassed KC?Ferrylodge 12:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Folks, I appreciate the info about the use of the term "pro-choice" in England, I really do. But no one made that point during the controversy at issue. You may be right, and I would be interested in looking into the different usages of the word "pro-choice" in the UK versus the US, but that is just not relevant to whether I harassed KC. And, Dan, every fact I stated about RCOG was fully cited by references and footnotes at the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists article; if you think there are mistakes in the RCOG article, please point them out at the RCOG article. Thanks.Ferrylodge 12:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- In my opinion the accusation of "harassment" is correct. You posted controversial material on a page against concensus, you then travelled to another page to make a similar point, you then posted on a talk page, and then you posted after reading this -"Now I'm done. If I have to dig around and line up diffs of your disruptive editing again, I'm not going to bother to do it to satisfy your demands. This is enough for an Rfc right here. KillerChihuahua?!? 01:37, 28 May 2007 (UTC)" message. In my opinion it'd be interesting to see an RfC. Dan Beale 13:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Dan, your edit summary says that you think the harassment was perhaps "mild." I don't think there is such a thing. It's kind of like saying a "genial" case of murder. If it weren't a very serious charge, I wouldn't be here discussing it.
Anyway,I don't think you've correctly described what happened. I added a LOT of info about RCOG at the RCOG article, in addition to info about their abortion stance. The diffs are in my initial post above. A fetal pain article was not the appropriate place to get into such detail about RCOG. Moreover, when I was at the fetal pain article and decided to get the RCOG article involved, I repeatedly said so in the fetal pain discussion.[62] [63]
- Instead of focusing on various other edits, please focus on the edit that prompted this whole thing. This edit was not against consensus, because this edit had never before been made at any article; there were not even any comments at the RCOG talk page when I made this edit to the RCOG article.
- Anyway, regarding an RfC, the guidelines say "at least two editors must have contacted the user on their talk page...." I am only one user. Therefore an RfC does not seem to be possible, unless someone volunteers to join me. I don't need a second person complaining, I just need a second person to endorse the complaint; i.e. to agree that it has merit, and also to contact Bishonen and try to resolve the issue. There's no formal requirement to do an RFC before an RFAR, but I would like to do an RfC, even though this whole thing is extremely time-consuming and costly for me.Ferrylodge 13:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, let's have some definitions. From Wikipedia:Harassment, harassment is defined as "Stopping other editors from enjoying Wikipedia by making threats, nitpicking good-faith edits to different articles, repeated personal attacks or posting personal information." Is the second part of that the problem here? No views as yet either way, I'm just providing the definition of what is not allowed. Moreschi Talk 12:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Hi Moreschi. The second diff in my initial post here indicates that Bishonen was particularly accusing me of "user space harassment." Here's the definition, in case it might be helpful:
“ | Placing numerous false or questionable 'warnings' on a user's talk page, restoring such comments after a user has removed them, placing 'suspected sockpuppet' and similar tags on the user page of active contributors, and otherwise trying to display material the user may find annoying or embarrassing in their user space is a common form of harassment.
A user page is for the person to provide some general information about themself and a user talk page is to facilitate communication. Neither is intended as a 'wall of shame' and should not be used to display supposed problems with the user unless the account has been blocked as a result of those issues. Any sort of content which truly needs to be displayed, or removed, should be immediately brought to the attention of admins rather than edit warring to enforce your views on the content of someone else's user space. |
” |
- Incidentally, I also quoted this definition in my unblock request.Ferrylodge 13:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- P.S. Would someone please help me with an RfC? The guidelines say "at least two editors must have contacted the user on their talk page...." I am only one user. I don't need a second person complaining, I just need a second person to agree that the RfC has merit, and also to contact Bishonen and try to resolve the issue. There's no formal requirement to do an RFC before an RFAR, but I would like to do an RfC.Ferrylodge 14:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Comment: Ferrylodge is stating his block was unfair, as he'd only posted one "I'm done" message after being told to cease posting on my talk page. He is leaving out a few details. After I said "I'm done", Ferrylodge posted twice morestill arguing the RCOG edit and accusing me of disruptive editing. Bishonen posted her "that's enough" message[64], then Ferrylodge posted "I most certainly am done here"[65], then linked it to another post he'd made on Bishonen's page, where he stated "You have spared me the agony of dealing further with her blatantly false and malicious accusations of disruption, bad faith, and edit warring". I removed that, as it constituted a back-door method of getting one last attack against me on my talk page, and he replaced the content, expanding slightly, but not the link. This constitutes edit warring on my talk page, to the tune of five edits, including a link to an attack and reverting me on my talk page, after being told the conversation was over. Oddly enough, he has mistaken five for once before, see my talk page for details (see the part of the section User talk:KillerChihuahua#Please Assume Good Faith concerning the diffs he'd asked for.) KillerChihuahua?!? 14:20, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I would appreciate if KillerChihuahua would please use quotes instead of misdescribing what she thinks I stated. I never said that I only posted one "I'm done" message after being told to cease posting on your talk page, KC. So, please don’t claim otherwise. What you say is false.
- My initial post above focuses on what happened up until the harassment charge and block warning. For details about what happened after the harassment charge and block warning, people can see my unblock request, to which I linked in my initial post above. The issue here is whether the harassment accusation (accompanying the block warning) was appropriate, not whether the block was appropriate (I don’t think it was, but that matter is distinctly dealt with in my unblock request).
- I do not think it would be helpful to get into an argument here about what I did or did not do after the harassment accusation that accompanied the block warning. Things are complicated enough already. Suffice it to say that I believe a person charged with harassment should be entitled to at least make a brief and polite denial of the charge, at the place the charge was made. That is why the following statement by me occurs at KC's talk page after the harassment accusation that accompanied the block warning: "I am glad to be done posting on this page, but, for the record, I dispute any suggestion of harassment. Please do not delete this comment." As I have said elsewhere, I am grateful to KC for not deleting this denial of the harassment charge. And yes, KC, I think your behavior toward me was malicious; I said so when the harassment accusation was made, I said so in my unblock request, I said so in my initial post above, and I'm saying so again now. Saying so is the plain truth, and is not harassment.Ferrylodge 14:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I stand corrected: you claimed to have made two posts, not one, according to your talk page: "I posted a brief goodbye which was deleted, and an hour later I posted the following at KC's talk page: "I am glad to be done posting on this page, but, for the record, I dispute any suggestion of harassment. Please do not delete this comment" (emphasis added). This was brief, polite, and cooperative. However, Bishonen tells me that this denial was "the last straw" that caused her to block me.". You left out that you'd already made two more posts after I had said I was done, and the edit in which you linked to your post on Bishonen's page - which she linked to as "the last straw", not your third edit after Bishonen's warning as you state on your talk page. Its still five edits, not two, and you left out, not only here but so far as I can tell, everywhere you've protested this block, the link you made to your post on Bishonen's talk page which was the reason Bishonen clearly linked to in her block statement to you. And if the issue is Bishonen's block, which you have stated is the case (unless I am somehow misunderstanding you) then what happened after the warning is highly germane. KillerChihuahua?!? 15:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- KC, you are misdescribing what I said, yet again. This statement of yours is simply false: "You left out that you'd already made two more posts after I had said I was done." When you said "I'm done," you in no way suggested that I should not respond, and I immediately responded twice. The bulk of my two responses to your "I'm done" remark is quoted in my initial post above, as well as in my unblock request: "You yourself said yesterday (and I agreed) that there is a difference between characterizing RCOG as a pro-choice group, and characterizing a particular position of RCOG as pro-choice."
- I have to work at my job until the end of the day, and therefore must take a break.Ferrylodge 16:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
This is stupid. Ferrylodge was harassing KillerChihuahua. Ferrylodge is told to stop. Ferrylodge does not. Bishonen blocks. Why are we talking about this? End of story. Can't we find better things to cry about, like GNAA, or dead babies on wikipedia? ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 15:20, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Concur with Swatjester. Let's move on and write some articles, shall we?. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:59, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I wish that all the vapid people at Wikipedia would be so straightforwardly vapid as swatjester.Ferrylodge 15:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Ferrylodge, give it a break. The more you type, the more any pretext to AGF in your case goes *poof* and the closer you get to being considered a troll. And see WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, and WP:AGF. •Jim62sch• 21:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I see, swatjester can call me a harasser without providing any explanation whatsoever, and imply that I am stupid to boot, but I must be polite and sweet. And you can suggest that I'm a troll, whereas I should be respectful and polite.Ferrylodge 02:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Putting this in context
This incident is the tip of an iceberg that is six months deep. Ferrylodge has been making tendentious edits throughout abortion-related articles since late Dec. 2006. If you want a full picture of the level of activity, see the the talk page of almost any abortion-related article (for example, Talk:Abortion (archives 26-27), Talk:Late-term abortion, Talk:History of abortion, Talk:Intact dilation and extraction, Talk:Fetal pain), or even the talk pages of some articles which are not inherently controversial and which are not natural extensions of the abortion topic (Talk:Stillbirth, Talk:Fetus, Talk:Pregnancy). Honestly, I don't know what Ferrylodge hopes to accomplish with this, because, frankly, it's beginning to look like the "campaign to drive away productive contributors" described in WP:DE. Whether it was inappropriate for Bishonen to intercede at KillerChihuahua's talk page, the posts Ferrylodge made on KC's page and on Bishonen's page subsequent to the warning were hardly constructive, and served little more than to have the last word after being told not to post there again. There are a thousand things Ferrylodge could have said which might have justified posting again after being requested to stop, if the intent was toward dispute resolution, but confrontational statements like "I most certainly am done here" and "You have spared me the agony of dealing further with her..." aren't among them. This dispute arose when Ferrylodge did not observe consensus at Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, by adding the description "pro-choice" to the article, which had already been objected to by 3 editors at Talk:Fetal pain. I don't really see where Ferrylodge's complaint is coming from in light of this and in light of the history of his involvement in Wikipedia. -Severa (!!!) 16:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Severa, it always muddies the waters to bring in extraneous issues. That has been happening in this thread from the start (e.g. "pro-choice" means something different in the UK than it does in the US). My regard for you is I'm sure as low as yours for me, probably a lot lower. However, it does no good to get into a huge brawl about extraneous issues, without addressing the issues at hand. And you are dishonest and misleading, as usual. When I said those words you quote --- "I most certainly am done here" --- that was shortly after KC had said "I'm done" and Bishonen had said "you're done." And now you're using those words of mine as some kind of evidence against me. This is most insincere of you, as usual. And neither you nor KC, nor Bishonen has EVER addressed the blockquote in my original post above, where KC distinguished between saying a group is pro-choice and saying it takes a pro-choice position on an issue. Never. And doubtless you never will. What a fine bunch you people are.Ferrylodge 16:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- P.S. Now I really must go for the day.Ferrylodge 16:13, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- "My regard for you is as low as yours for me, probably a lot lower." Wow. Great way to prove you're a civil and cooperative editor. Next time, you might want to really impress people with your manners, and say, "dear nazi". Anyways, this is veeery simple. If bishonen had posted no warning at all, you might have a point. If she'd blocked you indefinitely, you'd probably have a point. But, when an administrator feels the need to get involved, and tell you, "Look. This is harassment. You're done.", and you follow that by posting, anything... um... no. Sorry, but just accept the block. It was just 24 hours, for the sake of stopping a specific behaviour. And you really might want to just stop for a little while, and look at everything that led up to this, and then see if you really think you were so horribly wronged. Or not. Your decision. Bladestorm 16:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I'm having more of an issue with his assertion that Severa is "dishonest and misleading, as usual" - excuse me? One, Severa is painstakingly honest and a role model for AGF, and Two, NPA anyone? I'm getting more or less accustomed to having trash heaped on my head, as virtually my entire watchlist is controversial subjects, where I attempt to guide editors to work with each other, work towards and within consensus, follow policies, and remember to comment on the content, not the contributor, so I of course have lots of bad-faith and confrontational editors making wild accusations against me. So far in this thread Ferrylodge has managed to insult Bishonen, Swatjester, myself, and Severa, and that's just today. I'm beginning to think an Rfc might not be a bad idea after all. KillerChihuahua?!? 16:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- "My regard for you is as low as yours for me, probably a lot lower." Wow. Great way to prove you're a civil and cooperative editor. Next time, you might want to really impress people with your manners, and say, "dear nazi". Anyways, this is veeery simple. If bishonen had posted no warning at all, you might have a point. If she'd blocked you indefinitely, you'd probably have a point. But, when an administrator feels the need to get involved, and tell you, "Look. This is harassment. You're done.", and you follow that by posting, anything... um... no. Sorry, but just accept the block. It was just 24 hours, for the sake of stopping a specific behaviour. And you really might want to just stop for a little while, and look at everything that led up to this, and then see if you really think you were so horribly wronged. Or not. Your decision. Bladestorm 16:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- (edit conflict, reply to Ferrylodge's last post) It is completely relevant to consider the RCOG incident from the context of being the most recent example in a long pattern of similar incidents, rather than as being an isolated, first-time occurrence. It's seeing the forest for the forest, and not just its constituent trees. To quote the relevant bit of WP:DE:
- "Disruptive editing already violates site policy, yet certain editors have succeeded in disrupting articles and evading disciplinary action for extended periods because their actions remain limited to a small number of pages and they do not commit gross violations of Wikipedia:Civility. Collectively, disruptive editors harm Wikipedia by degrading its reliability as a reference source and by exhausting the patience of productive editors who may quit the project in frustration when a disruptive editor continues with impunity."
- I don't understand what you hope to accomplish with the sort of comments you have directed toward Swatjester. If you have a specific concern, please put it forward, but vague accusations like "you are dishonest and misleading, as usual" are only a hair's breadth from being as completely unhelpful as personal attacks ("I wish that all the vapid people at Wikipedia would be so straightforwardly vapid as swatjester"). This is all starting to remind me of Cindery. -Severa (!!!) 16:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- From my brief reading of this thread, I'm becoming increasingly uncomfortable with how it's being handled. If there were personal attacks, then could someone simply post the diffs, and this can be over with? Otherwise, as it stands (and I'm not saying this is the case), it just looks like people are unhappy with Ferrylodge for his/her position in an edit war (which, BTW, doesn't look like disruption to me, at least from what I've seen). If people could simply give the diffs, and tell Ferrrylodge exactly where (s)he went wrong rather than simply stating you made personal attacks, you deserved it, this could be over. In any case, the comment toward Swatjester was uncalled for, though, like I said, Swatjester provided abosolutely no proof, so I can sort of understand why it was made. Guys, provide the diffs, and we can close this dumb thread. Otherwise, it will look like a personal block. The Evil Spartan 20:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- (edit conflict, reply to Ferrylodge's last post) It is completely relevant to consider the RCOG incident from the context of being the most recent example in a long pattern of similar incidents, rather than as being an isolated, first-time occurrence. It's seeing the forest for the forest, and not just its constituent trees. To quote the relevant bit of WP:DE:
- (ri) You're kidding, right? Ferrylodge's personal attacks on this page alone should be sufficient evidence. •Jim62sch• 21:47, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- There are no diffs because there was no harassment before the harassment charge was made.Ferrylodge 02:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Severa, you say that I've been "tendentious" and "confrontational" and "disruptive". You cited a comment that I made ("I most certainly am done here"), but this was misleading and dishonest of you, because that quoted comment immediately followed the statement "I'm done" by KC, and "You're done" by Bishonen. Can't you see that the example you cite proves that I was merely echoing what had been said to me? Why should you be able to call me "tendentious" and "confrontational" and "disruptive" (and a million other disparaging words you have used for me), but I should never say anthing less than flattering to you? Do you deny that when I said "I most certainly am done here" it was immediately after almost identical statements by KC and Bishonen?
- I feel that you are simply trying to distract from the issue here. There was no harassment by me to justify Bishonen's accusation of harassment. No one has cited ANY diff of me harassing KC prior to when Bishonen uttered the word "harassment." No one here at this ANI page has bothered to consider the facts of this edit dispute. You can bring in extraneous accusations if you like, and maybe you have found some Wikipedia guideline to justify trying to bring in extraneous factors, but I know this for certain: there is no Wikipedia guideline to justify ignoring non-extraneous factors.Ferrylodge 02:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Evil Spartan, you obviously didn't take the time to look at Killer Chihuahua's talk page. You should go do that now. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 21:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- When did it become the responsibility of the reader of AN/I to find the relevant examples of misbehavior? Telling us to "do your research" when someone asks for these diffs only makes your case look less persuasive. I'm with Evil Spartan here: you make your point more quickly & more effectively by furnishing diffs than all parties involved exchanging heated words with each other. And if you don't like that opinion, then don't complain when you fail to persuade the rest of us that something bad happened. -- llywrch 22:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Please focus on what this thread is: Ferrylodge started it to see if there was support for an Rfc against Bishonen's block of him (not an exact quote). Many diffs have been provided by several people posting here. The question at hand is not the edit dispute, which Ferrylodge posted a lengthly description of his view of; nor is it Ferrylodge's incivility (which comments about here concern almost exclusively his posts in this very thread, hence, no link necessary). The block was made, and reviewed by at least two administrators and unblock was delcined. Ferrylodge is seeking some kind of redress or acknowledgement that the block was inappropriate. Do you find grounds for this? Do you require diffs for his assertions? KillerChihuahua?!? 22:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- No, KC, put yourself in my place. I don't spend an inordinate amount of each day on Wikipedia, but I have been around for a while. I don't like troublemakers, I don't like tendentious editors, & I don't like established editors who decide that they're special & the rules don't apply to them any more. So any time someone claims that they are the victim of one of these three, I'll start to read what they have to say.
- Please focus on what this thread is: Ferrylodge started it to see if there was support for an Rfc against Bishonen's block of him (not an exact quote). Many diffs have been provided by several people posting here. The question at hand is not the edit dispute, which Ferrylodge posted a lengthly description of his view of; nor is it Ferrylodge's incivility (which comments about here concern almost exclusively his posts in this very thread, hence, no link necessary). The block was made, and reviewed by at least two administrators and unblock was delcined. Ferrylodge is seeking some kind of redress or acknowledgement that the block was inappropriate. Do you find grounds for this? Do you require diffs for his assertions? KillerChihuahua?!? 22:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- However, too many effing times when a charge like this is raised, the discussion disintegrates into the equivalent of a bunch of 5-year-olds whining "he hit me first" -- "no he hit me first". In other words, the good guys are acting just like the bad guys & I can't tell the difference. I might have wanted to get involved, find out who did what & act on it. But like too many other threads in this forum, after a few minutes of reading, I end up wanting to just toss all parties involved into a windowless room, lock the door, & tell them only one person gets to leave the room alive.
- I've been involved in a few disputes myself. So I know quite well that only a true saint could keep her/his temper in such a situation, & not start playing dirty because the other side has been. That is why I'm insisting that all parties actually try to fight this temptation, & just give us the diffs. Otherwise if I want to get involved, I have to choose my side based on which person is more familiar to me -- because I'm very much aware that I only have a small slice of time to decide & make a difference. The time I spend untangling a dispute is time I could have spent making edits -- & I'd rather make edits.
- Yes, I am being lazy. Yes, this is unfair to everyone who is involved in the dispute. But I'm going to let you in on a secret: most people involved in Wikipedia think like me -- we're here to edit articles. We could care less about how X is being treated unfairly by Y. Why shouldn't we just give them heavy & sharp weapons, lock them both into a room, tell them only one gets to come out alive, & let the rest of us contribute to Wikipedia? If you want me to care, then do the work for me so I understand what the problem is & make me care.
- So far I've spent an hour writing a response to you that I could have spent improving articles on Wikipedia -- well, I hope my edits improve them. I happen to know I'm a crappy writer, so it takes me probaly twice or three times as long to write a response that is as intelligible as anyone else. Asking me to defend my opinions steals far more time from my ability to edit than anyone else. If you want me to argue my point -- that people disputing behavior in this forum need to furnish ample facts & not just argue over who hit who first -- I'll argue them. But some articles I could be improving will continue to languish in their present state because I didn't have the time to work on them.
- <A very naughty word or phrase>, maybe I ought to simply not care about who is screwing over whom on Wikipedia, trade my Admin bit for a gift certificate on Amazon, & stay in my forgotten corner of Wikipedia where I can edit undisturbed. Some days, I think that would be a better use of my time. -- llywrch 03:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- KC, you say, "The question at hand is not the edit dispute, which Ferrylodge posted a lengthly description of his view of...." It's not surprising to me that you would want people to look the other way, and ignore the description of administrator misconduct that I gave above. You certainly have ignored the blockquote. No one in this thread has addressed the blockquote. That blockquote shows that you, KC, told me one thing, and then when I followed your advice you started hurling accusations which led to a harassment charge. The question at hand most certainly is the edit dispute which led to the harassment allegation. You are doing your best to direct people away from that edit dispute, and quite understandably so, given what the facts show.
- The question at hand is whether I harassed you during the edit dispute, i.e. before the harassment accusation was made. Yes, I reacted imperfectly after the harassment accusation, and I even got blocked, but all that happened after the harassment accusation was made. Will you ever address the blockquote in my initial post above? Will anyone? Is there anyone here who has bothered to consider the implications of that blockquote? Or is everyone at Wikipedia too busy to consider details? That's where the devil is, in the details.
- The whole matter leading up to the harassment accusation was one long personal attack on me.
- Now, I am not being soft-spoken here. I know that. Swatjester calls this whole thing "stupid" and says I'm a harasser without saying why. So I'll call him vapid. It was a vapid comment he made. "I don't understand what you hope to accomplish with the sort of comments you have directed toward Swatjester." What I hope to do is convey my disrespect for people who are not considering, much less addressing, the facts.
- I'm sorry this is coming across negatively. But I feel that KC is urging people to ignore my initial post (especially the blockquote), just like she has been consistently doing. I feel like KC, and by extension Bishonen, are just having whatever they did rubberstamped here, without any serious consideration of the edit dispute.Ferrylodge 01:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I guess I am the person who brought up the initial concerns at Fetal pain that lead to the content dispute. I've been following this quietly, and felt like I can try to address this concern of Ferrylodge: the blockquote. I think the most important part of the blockquote is It may even establish their position as pro-choice, I'm not sure - I'll have to think that one over. Note may and I'm not sure - I'll have to think that one over. So KC posted something that MAY have been sympathetic to the content Ferrylodge wanted to include concerning the RCOG. However, KC clearly stated that she needed time to think that one over. Was KC given that time? The comment was made 22:58, 24 May 2007 but the phrase "pro-choice position" which was still under dispute at Talk:Fetal pain was added to Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists at 13:26, 25 May 2007. 24 hours later, this addition was reverted by Severa, and in an edit summary Ferrylodge acknowledged the KC stated that she needed to think things over.
- What is clear to me is that KC's biggest concern was that associating the word "Pro-choice" with the RCOG would paint them as some sort of political activist group, when they are a reputable medical organization. KC later concluded that Ferrylodge's rewording did not alleviate these concerns; that saying the RCOG held a pro-choice position was still connoting that they were an activist group. Ferrylodge has tried to paint KC as having flip-flopped on this issue, but I only see consistency. The blockquoted statement says that there MAY be a situation where what Ferrylodge wanted to express would be relevent, but we needed to be careful about how we went about describing it. KC later concluded that Ferrylodge's changes were not careful enough to address the concerns stated (but not quoted by Ferrylodge) directly after the blockquoted text.
- I believe that in this content dispute Ferrylodge was a little premature in the editing, and it would have helped to discuss things out further on talk, and perhaps make proposals before editing the article. I also admit that because this conflict dealt with 2 different articles (some perhaps not on the watchlist of those editors involved in the dispute), things were not always cut and dry (I was not involved at RCOG, but I was involved at Fetal pain). I also that KC's assessment that Ferrylodge's 2 reverts were "disruptive" was accurate. Editors should know better than to re-insert a disputed wording right in the middle of a content dispute. Someone doesn't get controversial content into an article by force, you get it in through consensus (well... if it's controversial enough, it won't get in at all). After that, happened, Ferrylodge went to an admin's page (KC) and told her to assume good faith, trying to defend his edit warring as non-disruptive. It is only antagonistic to start off a dialog with an established editor with "Please Assume Good Faith". The fact of the matter is, we had been discussing the "pro-choice" label in regards to the RCOG on the fetal pain talk page. That spilled over to the RCOG page. The content was removed from the fetal pain article while discussion was on going. Then the content was removed from the RCOG article while the discussion was on going, yet Ferrylodge re-inserted it twice, with no editors supporting the changes (yet 3 showing concern over them). Just because Ferrylodge posted a justification for the edit on talk does not give him a free pass to edit war. The proper process would have been to post on talk first, see what other editors felt, and once reached a consensus, then edit the article. Not the other way around. So when KC wrote, in reply to the AGF claim Ferrylodge threw at her on her talk page, edit warring against consensus is disruptive. Inserting OR when multiple editors have informed you this is inappropriate is disruptive. Assuming good faith means there is a question about the editor's intent. I agree 100% with that sentiment.
- The discourse went downhill from there. Uninvolved editors and admin got involved, siding with KC, and it got to the point where Ferrylodge was warned by an admin. Ferrylodge readily admits that he ignored the admin and was banned for doing that. That ban was uphealed by other uninvolved admins. I just wanted to post my perspective above, and say that I support the admins actions thus far and do not feel that any action or sanction against Bishonen is appropriate. Trying to get the last word in, and defending his pride, even when told to back down is what got Ferrylodge blocked. It seems like this block has only made the sentiment stronger (I was hoping for the opposite result). I really wish that Ferrylodge would cool down, take a step back, and just let things go so everyone can move on.-Andrew c 02:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Andrew c, I would like to respond. You say that the most important part of the blockquote is "It may even establish their position as pro-choice, I'm not sure - I'll have to think that one over." But you have grabbed that sentence completely out of context, without either the preceding or following sentence. The full blockquote is:
- "The way you have it phrased, they are a 'pro-choice group' - they're not. You've found a source which shows their sympathies, or professional view, or whatever, is not anti-abortion. It may even establish their position as pro-choice, I'm not sure - I'll have to think that one over. But the RCOG is not a pro-choice group."
- The sentence before and the sentence after make it crystal clear that she was 100% certain that a group can have a pro-choice position about something, and yet not be a "pro-choice group." There is no ambiguity there. Zero. Yet when I later made a single edit that said RCOG had a pro-choice position on the issue of reducing abortion time limits, she cited diffs that had absolutely nothing to do with that being a pro-choice position. And she cited those diffs as evidence of me being (A) disruptive, (B) edit-warring, (C) having bad faith. And merely for arguing to the contrary I was charged with harassment. There is not one single diff of one single harassing thing I said to KC prior to or leading up to the harassment charge. This has been one long personal attack against me, and I do not find your plucking a sentence out of context to show anything relevant.
- You emphasize that "The blockquoted statement says that there MAY be a situation where what Ferrylodge wanted to express would be relevent, but we needed to be careful about how we went about describing it." There were ambiguous aspects of the blockquote, but KC was completely unambiguous that a group can have a pro-choice position about something, and yet not be a "pro-choice group."
- You are correct that "KC later concluded that Ferrylodge's changes were not careful enough to address the concerns stated (but not quoted by Ferrylodge) directly after the blockquoted text." So she reverted my edit at the RCOG article. However, she also accused me at that same instant of being disruptive and editing against consensus, at which point I took the discussion to her talk page and politely asked her to assume good faith. She refused, accused me of edit warring and bad faith, cited irrelevant diffs, and then Bishonen accused me of harassment. The whole thing was a set-up as far as I can tell. There has been a history of friction between myself on the one hand, and KC/Severa/Andrew c on the other hand, and this incident followed directly therefrom, IMHO.
- Andrew c, you say that, "KC's assessment that Ferrylodge's 2 reverts were 'disruptive' was accurate." It's very difficult for me to know which reverts you are speaking of. I made an edit at the RCOG article saying that RCOG has a pro-choice position on reduction of time limits. KC reverted it. I never reverted it back. It remains as KC left it. So I do not know what two reverts you are speaking of.
- You say, "It is only antagonistic to start off a dialog with an established editor with 'Please Assume Good Faith.'" She had just called me disruptive, and I wanted her to assume that I was not being disruptive. What was I supposed to say, "Please Assume Bad Faith"?
- You say, "the content was removed from the RCOG article while the discussion was on going, yet Ferrylodge re-inserted it twice." Andrew c, the edit that led to this whole dispute was an edit where I wrote that RCOG took a pro-choice position on abortion time limits. I had never edited the RCOG article or any other article to make that statement. KC reverted it, and I never reverted it back. Is there now a zero-revert-rule for Ferrylodge (0RR), where Ferrylodge gets into deep doo-doo whenever he reverts zero times in a row? When KC wrote, edit warring against consensus is disruptive. Inserting OR when multiple editors have informed you this is inappropriate is disruptive. Assuming good faith means there is a question about the editor's intent. I also agree 100% with that sentiment. However I was not edit-warring against consensus. Multiple editors had not informed me that it would be inappropriate to characterize as pro-choice RCOG's position against reducing abortion time limits.
- And Andrew c, I do not readily admit that I "ignored the admin and was banned for doing that." What I admit is that I wanted to deny the harassment charge before leaving KC's page, and I ultimately did post that denial under threat of a block ("I am glad to be done posting on this page, but, for the record, I dispute any suggestion of harassment. Please do not delete this comment"). All of that happened after the harassment accusation, so it's not relevant to my main concern here, which is that the initial use of the word "harassment" by Bishonen was bogus, unjustified, unsupported by any diffs, and completely at odds with reality.
- You are correct that the block was upheld by uninvolved admins, but not because of any harassment. Go look at the unblock request at my user talk page. It was upheld merely to disengage the dispute. And again, all of that happened after the harassment accusation, so it's not relevant to my main concern here, which is that the initial use of the word "harassment" by Bishonen was bogus, unjustified, unsupported by any diffs, and completely at odds with reality.
- You say, "I really wish that Ferrylodge would cool down, take a step back, and just let things go so everyone can move on." I would like to oblige, but I feel that the edit dispute here was outrageous leading up to a bogus harassment charge, and I have been unfairly branded a harasser, an edit-warrior, a disrupter, and a person of bad faith. I will continue to make every effort to get an acknowledgment that I am none of those things. And then I will decide whether to stay or leave Wikipedia.Ferrylodge 03:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I'm going to address the edit warring issue. KC posted the 3 diffs on her talk page regarding the RCOG article. Here they are: (1) 17:26, 25 May 2007, (2) 17:06, 26 May 2007, and (3) 21:46, 26 May 2007. You said above I had never edited the RCOG article or any other article to make that statement However, the edit warring accusation isn't over the time limit addition, it's over the "pro-choice" label. Look at the diffs. You added "RCOG takes a pro-choice position" to the article 3 times. The first 2 times you were reverted by Severa, the last time by KC. The content dispute that started on Talk:Fetal pain and spilled over at the RCOG talk page dealt specifically with the label "pro-choice" and how and if it applied to RCOG. There clearly was no consensus yet on this topic when you added the content. Severa removed the controversial content while the content dispute was ongoing. You re-inserted it twice after this which eventually resulted in KC's revert where she said you were being disruptive (which lead to you going to her talk page and the rest is history). As I stated above, there is no reason to insert controversial content into an article during an edit dispute. This does not necessarily make you an "edit-warrior", but it does demonstrate that you were edit warring at this particular article. And by association, edit in this manner is disruptive. 3 times you added content which labeled RCOG as "pro-choice" even though multiple other editors had previously shown concern over this and no consensus had been reached yet on the matter. I'm not saying this in order to brand you as negative label, mind you, but I am saying that KC's initial concerns that sparked your comments to her are not simply 'bogus'.-Andrew c 04:49, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Andrew c, I do not see that you are saying anything relevant here.
- First of all, regarding the three diffs you cite, none of them happened at KC’s talk page. Bishonen charged me with user space harassment, so I don’t see how those three diffs establish anything regarding the harassment charge. Perhaps I misunderstand, and Bishonen meant to charge me with harassment at the RCOG article. But the only type of harassment she mentioned to me was user space harassment.
- Regarding what happened in the RCOG article, perhaps a brief analogy will help. Suppose you make edits at some article to say that Venezuelans have a pro-US position about American music and culture, an anti-US position about American politics, and a pro-US position on oil sales. These are three different issues. If you get reverted on the first one twice, it’s not any offense at all for you to write the last one once. That’s basically what happened to me at the RCOG article. I wrote that RCOG has a pro-choice position on reduction of time limits only once, and then I was reverted with the accusation that I was disruptive, which soon escalated to accusations of edit-warring, bad faith, and harassment.
- You and KC cited three diffs from the RCOG article. How they relate to user space harassment is beyond my understanding. But let’s consider those three diffs: (1) 17:26, 25 May 2007, (2) 17:06, 26 May 2007, and (3) 21:46, 26 May 2007.
- Only in the last one did I assert that RCOG takes a pro-choice position on reduction of time limits, and that's what got me in trouble here. Andrew c, you say “the edit warring accusation isn't over the time limit addition.” But then why is your third diff about the time limit addition? KC was very clear that the edit-warring accusation was indeed about the time limit addition. See here.
- KC was wrong. I never wrote at any other article that RCOG has a pro-choice position on reduction of time limits. It simply never happened, and therefore KC’s accusation of edit-warring is simply false.
- KC wrote that my characterization of the time limit addition was “virtually the same contested assertion” as assertions I made elsewhere, and therefore amounted to edit-warring. But the blockquote in my initial post above shows KC saying that merely using the word “pro-choice” twice in connection with RCOG does not create two assertions that are virtually the same. RCOG’s position on reduction of abortion time limits deals with a political question about what the governing law should be. It is very different from an RCOG statement about what should happen under existing law. I was trying to address KC’s assertion that RCOG was merely trying to follow the law --- she had said that “abortion is legal in the UK, and that the official govt. chartered college are to make that safe is NOT pro choice.”[66]
- Thus, you are comparing apples and oranges. The third of your three diffs is nothing like the first two. And of course NONE of them occurred at KC’s talk page, and thus they do not help to establish user space harassment.Ferrylodge 13:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
(reset)Since there is this big issue about "post the diff of harrassment", I felt I'd give it a shot. I'd first ask editors to simply read Talk:Fetal pain, Talk:Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, and User talk:KillerChihuahua and look at the article diffs. FL and KC were involved in an edit dispute. FL was edit warring at RCOG, and KC reverted the controversial edits and said Reverting disruptive edit. You do not have consensus, and indeed have considerable opposition for this OR edit. The consensus and OR remarks reference previous talk page discussions, and the "disruptive" remark references the "RCOG takes a pro-choice position" disputed text that was twice added to the article after it was removed once due to talk page concerns (by Severa). So in defense (or retaliation) to having been called a disruptive editor:
- FL goes to KC's talk page and posts this. Asking an established editor to "Please Assume Good Faith" may be baiting, or it may be a gentle reminder that we are all human and fallible. The post starts off polite. It digresses into accusations against two editors, claiming that they needed to address the topic to FL's standards in order to remove disputed content. Nothing completely unreasonable at face value, mind you, but still on the offense and maybe even antagonistic. Bold and brash.
However, KC and FL have a history, look at User talk:KillerChihuahua/Archive09#Moving Stuff to Talk Page. It's almost deja vu. Back and forth between the two. With this taken into consideration, the initial "Please Assume Good Faith" post by FL is a round about way of saying "I'm in the right, you are in the wrong, explain your actions to my satisfaction". In a very succinct manner, KC replied to this, stating clearly "edit warring against consensus is disruptive. Inserting OR when multiple editors have informed you this is inappropriate is disruptive." This explains how FL's behavior can be classified as "disruptive". While perhaps these points could be disputed (I personally agree with them), FL does not respond by saying "how was I edit warring?" or "where is the consensus?":
- FL replies with this, accusing KC of edit-warring, and ignoring the previous comment. This sort of accusation and tone can be seen as harassment. The conversation is no longer a dialog about wikipedia policy and past actions, its about who is in the wrong.
At this point, and uninvolved editor comes along and says "Nope, don't see any edit-warring on KC's part. Sorry."
- FL replies asking if the user feels he had participated in edit warring, and if he agrees that KC ignored the initial post. This is another snide comment regarding KC's reading comprehension.
Then an involved editor comes along and tries to explain further how FL was edit warring but KC was not.
- FL replies by saying the accusations against him are "totally ridiculous" and that everyone is lacking even an "ounce of objectivity". But somehow saying that is ok because he used an emoticon.
KC replies that FL has misrepresented the situation and explained how this was about more than a single edit by FL.
- FL replies, implying KC is lying or being deceptive, and demands that evidence is supplied up to his standards.
KC does so, but not without saying the task was tedious and not necessary unless for the purposes of a RfC.
- FL replies that KC is "very much mistaken", and tries to claim that KC said something that FL believes to support the controversial edits that started this mess, while neglecting to comment on the the diffs KC provided that he had previously demanded be shown.
- He then posts a post script where he says and I hope I will not have to waste my time dealing with your disruptive editing again. Again this comment is only reactionary and antagonistic towards KC, accusing her of disruptive editing again, using a snide tone.
Sure KC had ended her previous post by expressing that she was fed up with trying to meet the demands FL had placed on her. KC wasn't entirely calm and sweet through the conflict. There was some back-and-forth going on, but KC stuck on point and avoided unfounded claims. At this point, the uninvolved admin came along and warned Ferrylodge to stop posting on KC's talk page. He had demanded that KC explain her revert up to his standards. Demanded an explanation on how his edits were disruptive, demanded an explanation on how he had edit warred, demanded diffs for his edit warring, and then once all that was meet, replied by saying KC was very mistaken and accused her of being a disruptive editor. All of this was because Ferrylodge edited the same controversial content multiple times during a content dispute, was reverted, and told those sorts of edits are disruptive. Read the conversation for yourself and judge whether it is harassment or not. Regardless of whatever label you want to use for the situation, the warning and subsequent ban were necessary at the time to deter the provocation and escalation of the situation. Unfortunately, as shown by the continuation of this discussion, the ban did not serve the intended purpose but itself acted to escalate matters (but at least the personal talk page conflict for KC has ended). That is how I see things. If other users (especially those asking for diffs) now want to examine the situation themselves and comment on FL and KC's actions, on the appropriateness of the ban, or anything else, please do so.-Andrew c 05:08, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I'll respond briefly. Andrew c, your comment begins by saying "FL was edit warring at RCOG." That's what you argued in your previous comment, and I've already responded to it as well as I can in my previous comment. So I will not now repeat what I said in my previous comment. However, I agree with you that the propriety of my conduct at KC's talk page is somewhat related to what happened at the RCOG page, so I would urge anyone who may still be around to please read my previous comment rebutting Andrew c.
- Andrew c, to your credit you are now citing what happened at KC's talk page. However, you have cited about seven diffs of my statements at KC's talk page without indicating which ones you think establish user space harassment. For example, you cited my initial comment at KC's talk page, and I do not understand how it in any way helps to establish harassment. It was completely polite. Just citing a bunch of diffs without saying which ones you think establish harassment is kind of vague.
- Moreover, Wikipedia has a specific definition of harassment: "Stopping other editors from enjoying Wikipedia by making threats, nitpicking good-faith edits to different articles, repeated personal attacks or posting personal information."[67] But I did not notice where you pointed to any nitpicking I did of any good-faith edits, or where I made repeated personal attacks (certainly none that were any more personal than what KC was saying to me), or posted any personal information. And you have not specified which diffs (if any) suggest comparable stuff on my part. You can't.
- Wikipedia also has a particular definition of user space harassment: "Placing numerous false or questionable 'warnings' on a user's talk page, restoring such comments after a user has removed them, placing 'suspected sockpuppet' and similar tags on the user page of active contributors, and otherwise trying to display material the user may find annoying or embarrassing in their user space is a common form of harassment."[68] But I do not notice where you pointed to any warnings I made at KC's talk page, or used sockpuppets or tags, or posted embarassing info, or anything like that. I do concede that I may be annoying to KC, and she is certainly annoying to me, but I suspect that the "material" referred to in the guidelines refers to "material" other than mere conversational statements.
- Anyway, I've responded this morning as best I can to your two long comments here, Andrew c. I don't think Bishonen had any legitimate grounds for accusing me of harassment. Again, I've got to be unavailable for the rest of the day, due to employment. Thanks for hearing me out.Ferrylodge 14:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Bot delinking dates
User:Lightmouse is running a bot an automated process, that is systematically removing all links to dates from articles. In doing so, he is destroying thousands of hours of work by other editors. There seems to be an agreement that dates should not be overlinked. The links removed by Lightmouse and his bot are in no way overlinking. They are carefully selected by the editors to highlight the important dates in the article. Even if they are not, Lightmouse does not know it, as he is not reading the articles. He is selecting years, and attacking every page in "What links here". I have asked him to stop, but this has had no effect. -- Petri Krohn 12:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Quick yes, is this really running bot speed? He's not just running AWB or a variant or something? Moreschi Talk 12:57, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Beat me to it. I was just about to ask what makes you think this is a bot. The speed doesn't appear to be excessive, and the user has communicated their reasons for deleting. Disagreeing with him, and asking for comments is fine, but don't make unsubstantiated accusations. --OnoremDil 13:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- The thinking only seems to go as far as to check the desired effect, delinking of dates. There is absolutely no thinking on whether the date should or should not be linked. This thinking has been done by hundereds of other editors before. Effectively, what he is dooing is making year articles delinkable. -- Petri Krohn 13:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Whatever he is running, it is an automated process. He does not have time to read the article and evaluate the effect of the changes. He was earlier reported for vandalism [69], but the report was dismissed by User:Fire Star based on an assamption of good fait. Later I see that Fire Star has reverted a large number of his edits. -- Petri Krohn 13:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Also, this user only started editing a week ago. With this skill level, I find it unlikely that he is a new user. More likely he is or has been editing under an other username. The user is not revealing his main account, so I am not sure this falls under WP:SOCK#LEGIT. -- Petri Krohn 13:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- P.S. Removing critical comments and pleas to stop from his talk page, as he did here does not give an impression of good faith. -- Petri Krohn 13:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Well if that edit summary is correct, he's moving those comments to the relevant editors pages - that's seem a pretty normal thing to do. His explanation of his acts seem reasonable to me. I don't see (at the moment) any problem here - I actually agree with his reasoning for removing. --Fredrick day 13:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Let me rephrase my argument and let it rest: Automated processes should only be used for edits everyone can agree on. They should not be used in cases where there is a content dispute. What he is doing is analogous of having a bot changing every occurance of Ukraine to the Ukraine or vise versa. -- Petri Krohn 14:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I have no comment on Lightmouse's behaviour, but I feel a need to point out that Petri Krohn (talk · contribs) has a history of imprudency in recent past regarding at least three of the issues raised:
- He baselessly called a human "bot" on May 22.
- He has repeatedly made assorted accusations towards other editors ([70], [71], [72] etc.) based on nothing other than edit disputes.
- He has made a formal accusation of sockpuppetry knowing full well it was baseless, and consequently deliberately causing a lot of trouble to five editors for harassment purposes: [73].
These reasons, and others, are a basis to put any accusations made by this editor under heavy suspicion. I would suggest dropping the matter unless somebody else -- somebody without a history of wantonly throwing heavy but baseless charges around -- will back it.
(Disclosure: I happen to be among the ones targetted by this editor.) Digwuren 13:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
In his edit summary, Lightmouse is citing WP:CONTEXT as his rationale for date delinking. BTW, SmackBot does year delinking. --Jtir 14:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
OK I've had a further look into User:Lightmouse work and would add the following - 1) his actions seem in line with policy 2) when asked to consider his action and make improvements (such as a more informative edit summary), he has responsed to the questions, cited policy, engaged in debate and made improvements. I honestly don't see any here beyond an editor trying to improve the readability of the encyclopedia. --Fredrick day 14:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
this use of a vandal tag is NOT helpful and should not be applied when editors are acting in good faith. --Fredrick day 14:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
New block for Hayden5650
This user well known for disrupting behavior just came back for a blocking (more info at User talk:Hayden5650 and User_talk:125.237.116.59), but it seems he did not corrected the demeanour (just to quote yesterday's "euthanasia of Jews"). Personally, I gave him some time ago an initial advice, then I made a presentation of who this user is. However, the verbal violence increased (just to mention Romani issues), or repeated abusing words like Gypsies, Negroes and so on. Now he is following me in my edits, opposing me, in all kind of fields he has no knowledge about, deleting my talk [74], [75]. and abusing me racially [76], [77].
What do you think about considering this case for a permanent community ban? Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 13:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I'll exercise my right of reply after work, but after my block all I have done is revert a few of Desiphral's edits, (her edits were simply the deletion of information), while a discussion can take place to reach a consensus on the matter. --Hayden5650 18:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I also notice that other users are taking the same action in reverting her edits, whilst the topic is up for discussion. --Hayden5650 18:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- First of all, I am "him", not "her" (this is just part of this user's disruptive behavior). The edit war concerns a category listed for deletion Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_May_28#Category:Population_groups_of_mixed_ancestry, that is irrelevant for the article Romani people, only used by racist users for Romani bashing. Anyway, this is diversion from the main reason of the presentation of this incident, concerning repeated disrupting behavior in many other contexts (almost all of this users's edits are looking for controversion) Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 18:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Removal of RS sources
After I have a complaint about removal of RS sources from Wikipedia article to an admin (see here) including my intention to use wiki process to resolve the conflict he then began a process of removing sources from articles that I have created (see here), (see here), (see here), (See here), (see here)
There are genuinely differences of opinion about this source in Wikipedia. For example uninviolved neutral user was quoted when confronted with the RS sources of Tamilnet.
“ | Comment: Yes. While recognizing that the Sri Lankan-Tamil civil war is a longstanding and viciously contested dispute, I decline to take notice of pissing matches between the various factions as to which source is supposedly discredited by its alleged adherence to one side or another. Fox TV is commonly presumed to be a biased mouthpiece for right-wing ideologues, but I don't think you'd get very far claiming it doesn't qualify as a reliable source on that count. RGTraynor 17:02, 24 May 2007 (UTC) | ” |
Then on Sri Lankan reconciliation project the following compromise was reached about the source see here
When such diverse opinion is out there about this source for admin to refuse to follow wiki process that has been suggested is uncalled for and will only lead to edit wars as I am sure more people will revert his edits. Some other uninvolved admin needs to get involved to resolve this issue. Thanks Taprobanus 13:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Well, RGTraynor also suggested that perhaps Sinhalese and Tamil people recuse themselves. Are you going to do so? Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:20, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I am sorry to say that includes you because although you claim what ever you are to be, your edits parralel edit with other very specific minded Indian editors shows that one does not have to be an Indian or Sri Lankan to be part of a partisan camp. Thanks Taprobanus 14:07, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Ok. So you tell us Taprobanus that there was a consensus reached here at the WikiProject Sri Lanka Reconciliation. Well, has Blnguyen been invited to participate? Has he done it in case he was invited? If you say that you have reached a consensus about TamilNet being a qualified source (QS) than why aren't you using an explicit attribution (TamilNet reports that...)? Maybe Blnguyen was reverting on the grounds that it was used as a reliable source (RS)? -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 16:23, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- He was not part of the decision, but not every wikipedian can be part of such decisions any way. As the reconciliation decision is not a formal wikipedia decision such as a result of mediation or arbitration. It is as binding as suggestion:)
- Now if he agrees with the suggestion, (now that he knows about) he can edit using it. But If I am not mistaken he did remove Tamilnet from a statement which explicitly stated as pro-rebel (see here). That means he is not all amenable to any use of Tamilnet in Wikipedia. His point of view is just one point of view.See here for history of involvement in Sri Lanka related articles in the past.
- User:RGTraynor another experienced non involved third party (that is not a Sri Lankan or Indian who has an axe to grind in this conflict including me and Blnguyen)said very clearly that he will accept Tamilnet as a RS source.[79] So we have diverse opinion here about this source.
- Already Blnguyen edit patterns which went after many articles that I created has resulted in an edit war where there was non for a long time. These were stable articles including an AFD that went through with minimal content deletion including sources. That is a lot of neutral non involved third party editors looked at them and decided that they were written from a neutral point of view with reputable sources. So how do we solve this problem? when we have editors such as myself and Blnguyen who potentially have conflict of interest because of our backrounds who say have such opposite views about this source and yet others who are non involved say it is a RS source. (I will post here other explicit statements supporting this point from number of non involved third paties here) What is the next step ? Mediation and what is the final step ? Arbitration ? I am sick and tired of wikipedians indulging in vicious edit wars based on one source. If we decide it is not RS, then it is not RS. If we decide that it is RS then it canbe used. If we decide is QS then it QS. What ever it is I want more than a mere suggestion. Thanks Taprobanus 17:18, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not Indian, I am of Vietnamese ethnicity, and RGTraynor did not declare Tamilnet to be an RS. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:20, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- We can claim to be what ever we are in the internet. I suppose the French colonials were very fond of the game of Cricket in Vietnam:)) Seriously just like I am a Canadian, similarly you are Vietnamese but your edit patterns in parallel with other very specific minded Indian editors shows that you have very strong conflict of interest in Dravidian and Tamil related subject matters as was noted during many entanglements with now banned User:WikiRaja. So lets us not go there about ethnicities here and lets us stick to the discussion about Tamilnet. Thanks Taprobanus 14:07, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Just because you've used Tamilnet and other such patently partisan and non-RS on scores of articles doesnt mean they become reliable sources. These sites are avowed sympathisers of the militant outfits and in some cases just the 'media arm' of the militant outfits. They dont stand a remote chance of making it past WP:RS. Any dispassionate editor, editing in good faith wouldnt use these sources, especially since there is no dearth of bonafide reliable sources like BBC or the mainstream Indian media(print and internet) etc.,. This is not some conflict raging in some 'unexplored, unknown to the modern world' corner of the globe. It is happening in SriLanka, a member nation of the UN and the entire world is watching. So, there is absolutely no dearth of reliable sources(and non-partisan ones at that). Of course, if you adhered strictly to WP:RS, you may not be able to keep a score of every gunshot and every loss of limb as you're doing now, but it will leave wikipedia in better encyclopedic shape.
And what do you mean by - "...when we have editors such as myself and Blnguyen who potentially have conflict of interest because of our backrounds..."? Are you suggesting that you have a conflict of interest here? If that is the case, I'd request you to stop editing these articles. You really shouldnt be editing these articles in the best interests of the 'pedia. And as for insinuating that Blnguyen or 'Indian editors' have a COI going here, I'd suggest that you think twice before throwing around such accusations.
And please read WP:RS, WP:EL and related policies once before you infest the references and EL sections with links to google videos, random geocities, tripod sites, blogs, or a random site of some Tamil 'sangam' in some corner of the world etc.. apart from the staple tamilnet, tamilnation cruft. Thanks. Sarvagnya 21:58, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Just a simple question, will you stop editing Tamil related article because of your Bangalorean Tamil backround. Seriously, you have been noted by many editors many times in the ANI. So let us talk about Tamilnet then. Thanks
- Blnguyen is vietnamese. He is interested in India (india is one sixth of the worlds population, a lot of people are), and I fail to see a conflict of interest. As for tamilnet, it isnt neutral but not unreliable. The views on it are divided with some calling it LTTE and some calling it slightly biased. Tamilnet shouldn't be, however, the principal source for which notability is established. As for the fighting between editors, Taprobanus has been willing to discuss instead of reverting to trolling like 213.181.56.12 (talk · contribs) who we are led to believe is a Tamil in Iraq (via traceroute). As if the plight of Tamils is the most important worry in Iraq. Back to the subject, the analogy to FOX is interesting and demands some further discussion.Bakaman 22:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I have to give my 2¢ here. Partisan websites of any nature or background cannot be automatically classified at not reliable. As per Bakaman, it isn't neutral but not unreliable. I also agree w/ Bakaman in that no article should rely on one disputed source. One thing that i noticed and may not have appeared to you is that after classifying it as a qualified source, it has been inserted as a reliable source. As i said above, if it has to be used, than obviously wording should be like TamilNet reports that.... -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 00:54, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I am more than willing to follow Fayssal's suggestion. Thanks Taprobanus 14:07, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I get the feeling that Bakaman and Fayssal are confusing 'notability' and 'reliability'. 'Notability' is perhaps all that we can concede to Tamilnet and that is why we have a TamilNet on wikipedia. However, just being 'notable' doesnt make them 'RS'. That they have a rather lopsided militant view of the situation doesnt help either. Sarvagnya 01:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Comment: The analogy to FOX is ridiculous. FOX is a professionally run media house owned by News corp., which is listed on various exchanges and subject to routine and professional audits by the best in the business. I am sure it is affiliated to any/all "official" press regulatory bodies that count. It has an editor with rather impeccable professional credentials who has the moral courage to attach his name to a story. If anybody feels that FOX has a slant(to right or left or whatever), then it is their POV. Tamilnet otoh hand is, for all we know run by some journalistic quack who takes his blogging rather seriously. Sorry. The FOX analogy just wont cut it. Try something else. Sarvagnya 01:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Your personal opinion or do you have serious citation for what are you saying. I have listed reserach papers others your comments are just WP:SOAP. Thanks Taprobanus 14:12, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Can i ask a simple question Sarvagnya? What if TamilNet announces and acknowledges a terrorist attack via their website? Would we use it as a primary reference? Would it be considered as a reliable source as well? IMHO, if you have reached a consensus in which TamilNet would be considered as a qualified source (everything but a reliable source) than why not all parties try to use the appropriate wording when using TN as a QS?
- Whatever is the case, i am still not convinced that you have to sort out this issue in this board. What about an RfC? -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 02:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Whether TamilNet acknowledges something one way or the other is besides the point. Also, I was not part of any consensus where a patently non-RS source has been decorated with a "QS" tag. What is "QS" anyway? Are there similar precedents elsewhere on wikipedia? It is not upto any random Wikiproject to get together and hammer out a 'consensus' on matters like this. And I dont see where there has been any consensus regarding this and other similar sources. A quick look at some of the talk pages will tell you that editors have always been against these sources. I can only say that these sources have been used in bad faith. Sarvagnya 02:50, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I don't believe admins can do something. It is a dispute regarding the reliability of a website. You have some few days to discuss it again before the article is unprotected. If not than obviously a RfC is just next door. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 02:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Whether TamilNet acknowledges something one way or the other is besides the point. Also, I was not part of any consensus where a patently non-RS source has been decorated with a "QS" tag. What is "QS" anyway? Are there similar precedents elsewhere on wikipedia? It is not upto any random Wikiproject to get together and hammer out a 'consensus' on matters like this. And I dont see where there has been any consensus regarding this and other similar sources. A quick look at some of the talk pages will tell you that editors have always been against these sources. I can only say that these sources have been used in bad faith. Sarvagnya 02:50, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I'd prefer not using FOX either if it was at all possible, or LankaWeb, or Tamilnation or Tamilcanadian. This conflict is very famous, and each time there is an air strike or a suicide bombing, it is covered on BBC, CNN, AP, etc etc, so we can use those if necessary. If it is only noticed by a few small ethnocentric sources, then I would be skeptical. FOX is a proper news source although it is very biased, but I have not seen people say that they present false data and such. It does contain strong editorial bias and such, but when you use a source you should not import the bias from the newspaper and just say "described by .... as "the best" ". But in any case, if BBC or CNN have the same data, it's better to just use them instead. There are many times where a proper newspaper like Sydney Morning Herald and the tabloid Adelaide Advertiser say the same facts, in which case, I would just source the SMH since it would look better. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:20, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Can the TamilNet refs be replaced by BBC/CNN ones? If yes than the problem is sorted out. I haven't checked if TamilNet references are unique (i.e. no one else covered it...) -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 04:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Not most of the time see my comments below specifically about Sarathambal case Taprobanus 14:07, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I agree that a the WP:SLR community reached a vote to name many sources as "RS", "anti-rebel" , "Pro-rebel" and "UnRs". The problem is that most srilanka related articles do not follow thse branding of articles. If you take a good look at many other articles there are lots of "anti-rebel" sources being used as RS. So if the community is saying that we cannot use tamilnet then why is the same community keeping quite on the other side of the story-using anti rebel sources. Is there something thats missing ? Or has the community not seen these articles ? Anyway if we are going to allow the anti rebel sources then we MUST allow the pro rebel sources so that in the end we will have a neutral article. However, if one is taken out the other should also be taken out to again have a neutral article. Watchdogb 12:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I am also the same view after the WP:SLR community has reached a vote to name as "RS", "anti-rebel", "Pro-rebel" and "UnRs", still there are articles which have been sourced using anti-rebel sources as WP:RS. Those who are willing to remove Tamil-Centric souces using as WP:RS for the events purported by the State Terrorism in Sri Lanka in the Tamil areas where the International Press is in total isolation, are keeping silent to the usage of anti-rebel sources as WP:RS in various articles. Whether Blnguyen has failed to see those articles or he has biased view towards the persecution of the Tamil community in the Sri Lanka to be exposed to the world is not still clear. But his vesak wishes to his friends [80][81] who are adamantly against the view there is a State Terrorism in Sri Lanka, is giving some view of his biased nature and will only lead to a RFC against him subsequently.Lustead 13:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Tamilnet does not file false data, there are serious non Indian and Sri Lankan researchers such as from the United States and Australia who have studied this news site. For example for archived version of the research paper on this see this. Read it in full before making any comments. I can provide more such research papers. I am not arguing that Tamicanadian is a RS source, so let us not confuse the matter here. The discussion here is only about Tamilnet as I said I will take it all the way because I am sure we will prevail at the end when neutral uninvolved Wikipedians see the arguments on both sides not any one belonging to a cabal or faction with and axe to grind.
- Tamilnet passes RS because
- 1. It has an editorial board
- 2. It has an editor
- 3. It reviews its news reports for accuracy
- 4. It is used as a primary source by notable media
- organizations such as BBC and CNN (just to name a few) to report on information that is generally censored information in Sri Lanka.
- 5. It is used as a source by notable Human Rights groups such as Asian Human Rights Commission and HRW (just to name a few)
- To arbitrarily remove very important information that is particularly important for Sri Lanka conflicted is tantamount censoring information in Wikipedia. By claiming most information is covered by BBC and CNN.because it is not true at all.
- For example in the Sarathambal rape and murder case, some one arbitrarily removed Tamilnet source which says that number of important dignitaries including number of majority Sinhalese attended her funeral. That information is not available in BBC or CNN. But that piece information humanizes the Sinhalese people that although it was a Sinhalese person who is suspected of raping and murdering this minority Tamil women other Sinhalese were equally upset about. That piece of information makes the article neutral other wise the article will be completely one sided. To remove Tamilnet from that article now makes it a non neutral one from a neutral stable article.
- Then there was a claim that it was a blog ? There was a claim that it was a partisan website ? That it was a lobby group ? Now all this is personal opinion without any credible citations.
- I think people simply jump to conclusions without doing serious research. Let us continue this discussion to its logical conclusion. Thanks Taprobanus 13:50, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Raisestoodbn
Raisestoodbn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
has been accused of sockpuppetry and wiki stalking [82], recently he has been blanking the pages of his user page and removing the sock puppet tags from his main page and those of his sock puppets [83], [84], , as well reverting my edits (mostly picture additions which no other editor has had a problem with [85], [86],)
also he just made a 3RR violation on SKS [87]
he has also made personal attacks by claiming I am a nazi and racist without any proof [88] --Bleh999 13:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Personal attacks and other misconduct of User:Cleo123
There has recently been a rather heated conversation at Talk:List of notable converts to Christianity regarding inclusion of a particular subject. I unfortunately was one such party. I full well volunteer to take any penalty any of you may seek to impose for my own actions. However, there is one other party involved who I believe well crossed the line, and seems to be hiding as a result. I am speaking of User:Cleo123. I am specifically speaking of that user's statement that his/her own actions were prompted by a wish to prevent a libel lawsuit arising, based on assumptions which are nowhere put forward in any policy or guideline. I am also speaking most directly about the thread at Talk:List of notable converts to Christianity#Hypocrisy, which I believe is clearly and explicitly a violation of the rules regarding no personal attacks. The fact that this user has since on his/her own talk page stated that s/he saw no reason for admin involvement in this matter, and actually seemed to oppose involving any oversight here after making the accusations in the Hypocrisy thread makes it clear to me that this user may well have been engaged in the conversation from the beginning for, as another user has stated here and here, the purposes of intimidation and harrasment. I also note that since I first gave this party notice that I would be filing a complaint, partially to see if that party displayed any real interest in validly raising the complaints they made regarding me on the "Hypocrisy" charges above, that party has completely disappeared and had not a single edit. Frankly, that surprised me rather a lot, but it does seem to me to be possibly a tacit acknowledgement of wrongdoing. I would like to see this user receive some sort of penalty for the clear and I think egregious attempts at intimidation and harrasment, but also would like to see the editor be allowed to contribute productively elsewhere as well. Is there anyway to level a block as it were "pro-rated" to include the time the editor has voluntarily removed him/herself? If such is possible, I would think that such would be the most appropriate penalty. Also, I have no objections to keeping the "Hypocrisy" thread intact, as its presence, and the subsequent ability to point toward it, I think helps insure that such actions not happen again. Thank you for your attention in this rather odd matter. John Carter 00:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Given that the last post to that thread was about 10 days ago and you are still here, I'd say if there was an intent to intimidate you, it didn't really work too well did it? While noting that there is clear incivility from multiple parties on that talkpage, I don't see much reason for admin action against specific editors at this time. Blocks are preventative, not punitive and it appears the behavior you are objecting to has ended at this point. On a side note, I protected the article because it appears the underlying edit war is still happening. Perhaps it is time for the parties who have taken an interest in this article to look into dispute resolution.--Isotope23 14:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Please review the blocking policy, particularly the bit where it says that 'The purpose of blocking is prevention, not punishment'. Cleo123 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has not edited Wikipedia for just over a week. In various places, by various editors, it has been sugggested to all of you involved in your little teapot tempest at Talk:List of notable converts to Christianity to calm down, have a cup of tea, and relax. Cleo123 has apparently been willing to disengage for a while, despite you trying to goad her into filing some sort of complaint about you. Please follow her lead. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- (moving comment to chronological position, having been caught in apparent edit conflict) Mediation was actually tried before. Cleo actually told the major proponent for the non-inclusion of Bob Dylan, User:Bus stop, on his talk page, to not accept mediation when I and others had filed for mediation, and it was thus rejected. Whether that party would be any more willing to accept mediation since he has directly asked elsewhere what the "tendious" editing is he has been accused of is here, that party's actions seem to have been more limited. And my apologies for my earlier comments regarding your recent protection of the page. I hadn't looked at the page's recent activity to see the current dispute. I hope that the newly created discussion on where to include people who have converted to Christianity and subsequently to something else will resolve the existing dispute, but think that protection might be a good idea again in any event. My apologies again. John Carter 14:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
John Carter did not link to the entirety of that exchange, which was largely a joke, and unrelated to the subject at hand. Here is the link to the exchange in its entirety:
It was just a joke. The joke is that no such word as "tendious" exists in the English language. Bus stop 21:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Defamatory personal attack by User:RodentofDeath
Latest homepage revision[89] by RodentofDeath (talk · contribs) is a defamatory personal attack on [I guess I should delete this]. This one could plausibly cause trouble for her where she lives.
This is going pretty far — I really hope it isn't dismissed as another chapter in their ongoing POV conflict on articles relating to the Philippines sex industry.
Only three NPA warnings on Rodent's talk page (including this one) since last block, but there have been a few uncivil comments in article talk pages. And I feel like this particular offense is special. / edgarde 14:11, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- The homepage revision you linked to above does not name who he is talking about. No person, not already intimately connected to the situation, could possibly figure it out. Making the case that it's a personal attack against the specific person you named here, is impossible in that situation. Wjhonson 14:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- This is at least harassment. We're given an approximate street address and identifying personal characteristics. I can also see easy ways a reader could identify the accused editor if they felt sufficiently concerned by the accusation to investigate. From what I understand, a possible associate of the accused editor was framed on rape or pedophilia charges under (what were eventually decided to be) false pretenses. / edgarde 14:30, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I've deleted the page as attack, as I can't see any useful purpose for it remaining, whether or not the subject is identifiable. I'll leave it to someone else to decide if a block is needed (partly as I don't have time to investigate, partly to allow at least another set of eyes to take a look). Petros471 14:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Prices and catalogs
Some feedback is requested on Talk:List of Virtual Console games (North America), whether the list should include pricing information on individual video games, or whether these are considered trivia. >Radiant< 14:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- This is tricky. I believe this should be discussed w/in a policy or a MoS scope. However, i'd say we are an encyclopedia where we gather as much information as we can, BUT pricing? Ummm, prices change every once and then and if we are going to include them we must be able to update them and i don't think we can manage that if we are going to include all prices for all products in wikipedia. Leave that job to the marketing guys working for their companies. They have their own websites (which can be reached from here by clicking on external links) where they can list and update their prices. We don't represent them. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 15:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Another article that falls under the price guide issue: Xbox_Live_Arcade#Xbox_Live_Arcade_games_for_the_Xbox_360. RobJ1981 23:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Really annoying and bothering as an issue. But is this the right place to discuss this? What about the village pump or wikiprojects? -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 00:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- No, I don't ask people to discuss it here, I'm just notifying people here that we have a discussion on that talk page I mentioned. Please chime in there. >Radiant< 08:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Really annoying and bothering as an issue. But is this the right place to discuss this? What about the village pump or wikiprojects? -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 00:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Another article that falls under the price guide issue: Xbox_Live_Arcade#Xbox_Live_Arcade_games_for_the_Xbox_360. RobJ1981 23:36, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
When will South Philly stop harrassing me?
I have to question when South Philly (talk · contribs) is going to stop trying to harrass me. I thought with the cessation of Evrik's attempts to appoint himself coordinator of WikiProject Awards, South Philly's abusive messages would cease, but apparently not. Actually, that last one was an attack on Kathryn NicDhàna as well, who supported the removal of Evrik as coordinator and really was utterly non-confrontational throughout. South Philly is utterly loyal to Evrik, to the point of nominating an certified RfC against him for deletion last week claiming that the five pages of evidence was just spurious and should be deleted. If South Philly can combine defending Evrik and attacking me, all the better; thus he signed an outside statement on the RfC in which it was claimed the LGBT community, and more specifically, me and Jeffpw, were deliberately targetting Evrik, written by someone who we strongly believe is a sockpuppet of a user banned for disrupting LGBT articles. South Philly has now nominated WikiProject Awards for deletion, which, beyond being too ironic for words that his basis for doing so is "excessive bureaucracy", is simply an attempt, once again, to get at me - which is just bizarre given I don't really care and haven't posted there for weeks. However, it's kinda POINTy because with the demise of Barnstar proposals, the WikiProject is more necessary than ever for help with new awards, be it design, or wording or whatever.
I find it unlikely that South Philly is going to give up his disruptive habits (which he also appears to be pursuing with Radiant! as well, but I can't comment on that) or vendetta against me in the near future, and as my time on Wikipedia is very limited, restricted mainly to minor edits and comments, I thought I'd detail it here for the future reference of any admins who may wish to watch him. I am certainly getting very fed up with this snidely little comments appearing everywhere because South Philly didn't get his way that one time. DevAlt 14:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Just my opinion, which doesn't amount too much, but this all stems from the "necessary" WikiProject Awards. Anyone else see the irony in that? I was belittled at the MfD for calling the project disruptive and pointless. Not that any of this matters. Sorry if no one cares to hear my opinion. IvoShandor 17:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- The comments Ivo is referring to were not from me, btw. However, the "disruption" was caused by Evrik and South Philly, ended some time ago as far as WP:AWARDS is concerned, and have no bearing whatsoever on the validity of the project itself. Your reply was not the most edifying either, though, Ivo. DevAlt 17:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Just my opinion, which doesn't amount too much, but this all stems from the "necessary" WikiProject Awards. Anyone else see the irony in that? I was belittled at the MfD for calling the project disruptive and pointless. Not that any of this matters. Sorry if no one cares to hear my opinion. IvoShandor 17:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Having had no interactions (afaik) with South Philly for months now, and having barely interacted with him even during the WP:Awards situation (where SP and Evrik were trying to run the thing, and got very angry when other editors came in and made it democratic) I was very surprised at his odd post on my talk page today (linked above), and his screeds that some "gay cabal" is out to get him. It seems he cannot let go of what happened at WP:AWARDS. I looked at his recent contribs, and it appears to me that, rather than working on the encyclopedia, he is taking up lots of people's time with WP:POINT activities and subtle or not-so-subtle jabs and attacks on other editors. I think he needs to get constructive or take a time out. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 18:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I didn't realize ANI was here to enlighten everyone. I was just pointing out that this all stemmed from the project. Sorry if you don't like that, that project has been nothing but a problem, but we are all entitled to our own opinions. Your response is, of course, your opinion too, and I didn't mean to imply that the comments were from you, just thought it was ironic that there is a report on ANI related to a project that I was told doesn't disrupt anything. I can't comment on the other stuff, for the record, however, I was one of the editors who came in and headed off evrik's attempts to declare himself coordinator. IvoShandor 20:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Oliver Dulić
I'm fighting a sterile (and lame) edit war with 24.151.129.28 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) over the lead section of Oliver Dulić (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). I kindly tried to explain him [90] why his persistent addition that the man is "of Yugoslav descent" is both nonsensical (in American terms, it would be comparable to "a man of Christian descent" for someone from mixed-religion marriage) and inappropriate for the lead section, and already in the appropriate place in the article, but he just keeps on re-adding it. Since I don't want to break 3RR, and I'm in an edit dispute with him, can someone explain it to him in more stern terms or semi-protect the article? Thanks. Duja►
- Well, while I don't understand the specifics, I do understand that claiming a Serb is of Yugoslav descent is nonsense - it's like saying a Ukranian or Russian is of USSR descent. I've reverted, and will leave a clear message on the talk page to start communicating better on the talk page... or else. The Evil Spartan 19:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Canvassing of CfD by Mais Oui
The soon-to-close CfD for Category:Current British MPs and its sub-categories has been the subject of partisan canvassing by User:Mais oui! at Talk:Scottish National Party#SNP-related_category_has_been_nominated_for_deletion (see this edit).
The canvassing is both blatantly partisan and is directed at a targeted audience, thereby meeting two of the criteria for unacceptable votestacking set out at at WP:CANVASS#Types_of_canvassing. It concludes with the sarcastic comment:
Please note that although the CFD terminology is "merge", de facto this means deletion. Lovely euphemism...
Several identifiably Scottish editors voters have since joined the CfD in explicit support of Mais Oui's position, altering the balance of votes. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Forgive me from commenting when I'm an identifiably Scottish voter myself, but so far as I can see there is nothing wrong with him contacting active members of a WikiProject with an interest in the discusion (the Scotland Project, in this case) and with taking the view that it is up to other related projects to sort themselves out. Blood Red Sandman (Talk) (Contribs) 13:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Problem with unregistered user in the Any Dream Will Do article
An unregistered user persistently ignores reasoning and keeps reintroducing his changes to the criticism section, supposedly to remove bias but actually to add his own opinion. As the user won't register and the IP keeps changing (at least three different IP numbers are listed in the history) it's impossible to talk to this person and resolve the dispute. Constantly editing around won't do any good. I don't know how to solve this but I do feel that the edits that are being made aren't a merit to the article. How can this be resolved? A third opinion would also be appreciated on whether the edits made are actually useful. Little-quiqueg 16:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- The page could be semi protected which will keep unregistered and newly register accounts at bay. Nick 16:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- This would be good. But who can do that? I already feel accomplished just getting a semi-decent article format (I'm actually copying what you did to get the indent...). It would be preferable if this other person finally got an account so we could discuss this properly. Little-quiqueg 16:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
The unregistered user keeps ignoring my attempt to open a discussion and keeps deleting information even though other editors have already said it's relevant and his comments arents.
- I've warned the IP editor about removing sourced material from the article.--Isotope23 20:37, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks, but now the user added completely biased information to the section to make it absurd. Little-quiqueg 22:04, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
This AfD appears to be stuck in limbo - Tiswas(t) 16:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- It appears that due to a technical error this was never listed on the main AfD page, which would explain the lack of participation in the AfD as well as the fact that no one noticed that it needed to be closed for over a month. It appears that someone is re-listing for a new debate. Comments on the original AfD should be incorporated in the new one, and/or the people who previously commented should be notified so they can do so again. Newyorkbrad 16:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- It looks like it wasn't formatted correctly or listed in the logs. I tagged it with an afd2, and listed it. Makes sense to me to start the 5 days now, unless someone wants to make a "speedy" solution. --OnoremDil 16:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- The article has now been speedied by User:^demon under CSD G11. WarpstarRider 06:23, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
User:Giano_II ignoring consensus
By unilaterally redirecting Sir Keith Arbuthnot, 8th Baronet (which recently survived afd as a keep). Doc_Glasgow has done the same thing. - Kittybrewster (talk) 16:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Con doesn't trump V, and I note the only source is your personal website. KillerChihuahua?!? 16:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I support Giano's bold action. Sir Keith Arbuthnot, 8th Baronet as it stood was not remotely reliably sourced and there was simply nothing to support a standalone article there. An AFD closed Keep is not the be all end all that signifies an article should stay in a static state forever. All of these Arbuthnot articles that don't contain a distinct, sourced claim of notability per WP:BIO should be redirected. They can always be restored as standalone articles if verifiable sources are found. Of course this is all a content issue and I don't see any case for admin action against Giano for being bold.--Isotope23 16:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Redirection and merger can be implemented as editorial decisions outside the deletion process. Issues can be discussed on the talk of the articles in question. Newyorkbrad 16:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Despite repeated requests on this page to desist from WP:COI edits to articles on members of his own family (see e.g. discussion above at #Vendetta), Kittybrewster has done it again, shortly after the expiry of a previous 48-hour block or the same problem. This is now clearly a form of disruptive editing, so I have imposed a fresh block, this time for 7 days. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I am sorry to say that I am troubled by this block. I share the extreme concerns that have been expressed by many editors about the sourcing and reliability of some of the Arbuthnot articles and by Kittybrewster's handling of the controversies that have arisen surrounding them. However, his only substantive edit today was to correct a questioned date of birth while citing the Dictionary of National Biography, and I can't see that as warranting a block. Newyorkbrad 17:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- He didn't simply correct a date, he removed the "notability" tag. IrishGuy talk 17:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I did miss that. Newyorkbrad 17:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- The ongoing pattern of baiting and bullying that Kittybrewster has been subjected to is sad to see. Catchpole 17:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- The ongoing pattern is more of a two way street, if anything. SirFozzie 17:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- While the edit in question wasn't a particularly good one (removing notability tag and then adding an inexplicable "reference" in the form of <ref>DNB</ref>... whatever the hell that is supposed to mean), I think a 7 day block for that is a bit draconian. Kittybrewster (talk · contribs) has not made particularly helpful edits to these articles, but I just don't see this as blockable for that amount of time.--Isotope23 17:20, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- There was a citation of the Dictionary of National Biography already present at the bottom of the article. "DNB" is a common abbreviation for that. Uncle G 17:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Ah, I completely missed that it was supposed to be an abbreviation for that. Thanks for pointing that out. Personally I like to see references a bit clearer. The way it was done it was not clear.--Isotope23 17:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- There was a citation of the Dictionary of National Biography already present at the bottom of the article. "DNB" is a common abbreviation for that. Uncle G 17:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- He didn't simply correct a date, he removed the "notability" tag. IrishGuy talk 17:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I am sorry to say that I am troubled by this block. I share the extreme concerns that have been expressed by many editors about the sourcing and reliability of some of the Arbuthnot articles and by Kittybrewster's handling of the controversies that have arisen surrounding them. However, his only substantive edit today was to correct a questioned date of birth while citing the Dictionary of National Biography, and I can't see that as warranting a block. Newyorkbrad 17:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with Brad; this particular action did not warrant a week's block. I do understand that it's cumulative, and I do understand the frustration with this editor's inability to understand why he cannot edit articles about himself and his family. Blocks, however, are intended to stop disruption; I frankly don't think that Kittybrewster's behavior is disruptive enough to warrant a one week block at this point, given how it is limited to one narrowly defined set of articles. Granted, it's pretty hard to follow the conversations on KB's talk page, since he keeps blanking it. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 17:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I asked BrownHairedGirl (talk · contribs) to pop back over here to discuss the block. IMO, it should be refactored to something more along the lines of 24 hours if a block is going to be left on the account.--Isotope23 17:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Isotope23, for the note that this discussion was continuing. I will explain my reasons, but if there is a consensus for refactoring or lifting the block, that's fine by me: I won't object to any change which has consensus here.
My reasoning was that this COI editing is not something new, and that it has continued for a long time: KB refuses to acknowledge the existence of a COI, despite the fact that it has been repeatedly criticised both here at WP:ANI and on countless talk pages and AfDs. The product of all this COI editing has been a huge swathe of articles which are primarily dependant on sources owned by Kittybrewster himself (his website and a book to which he owns copyright), and efforts to delete or merge them in accordance with WP:N, WP:RS etc are hotly contested by Kittybrewster.
Debates over these articles have caused tempters to be raised on both sides, and Kittybewster's continued COI edits are only stoking the flames of a tense situation. After a previous block (which he did not contest), KB returned and set about COI editing straight away; that seems like to me to be clear indication that far from trying to help a calm resolution of the situation, he is happy to stoke the tensions. At this point, I think it's time to make it clear that such determined and persistent COI editing is unacceptable, so a further block was justified ... and 7 days seeems like the next logical increment after the previous 48-hour block.
AS above, if there is consensus here to lift or refactor the block, that's fine by me. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I actually did quite a bit of tidying this afternoon (for that is what it was) I made 4 baronets all non-notable with virtually zero information other than their wifes' and childrens' names and some trivial information not demonstrating notability (one was a JP, another a Master of Fox Hounds - all very commendable/enjoyable but hardly distinguished) into a redirect, and made the page known as Arbuthnot in to a redirect to Category: Arbuthnot family which is plain common sense.
- This is the way forward with the Arbuthnot problem, tidy and sort. I have also discovered that some pages lead to the wider and more extended Arbuthnot family, some of these are not by the same author but that is neither here nor there as (despite his beliefs to the contrary) this problem is not about Kittybrewster and his friends personally but about the notability and often referencing of the Arbuthnot pages. Many of which he has not been the sole editor. We just need to apply some common sense and deal with this matter efficiently in a detached fashion - this is about the worth and standing of the encyclopedia nothing else. So far during this unseemly debacle I have been seen people being accused of supporting terrorist organizations, republicanism, "treating the British ascendency with disdain" and "opposing personal and political reasons", and of course David Lauder's latest accusation yesterday of a "vendetta". This is ludicrous and has to stop.
- When by chance trawling Wikipedia for a stub to improve (as I often do) I initially came across the Arbuthnot pages I desperately tried to help Kittybrewster, but the more I researched and sourced the more errors I can across - I advised I tried to help, (God knows where I found the patience) on wiki and off - eventually I ran out of patience and told him why [91]. Normally when I am a little abrupt with people I think afterwards - that was a little harsh. In this case I stand by every word. These people are not notable, the titles they hold may well be, so the title can have a page. Notable holders of that title can have a page. Non-notable holders of baronetcies do not need a page - especially when there is nothing to write about. At the end f the day the project is what is important, individual editors may have their problems (which of us do not?) but Wikipedia is not therapy. Regarding Kittybrewster's latest block - I could not care less about it. It makes no difference to the encyclopdia how long it lasts. Giano 18:52, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
This is absurd. This is a content dispute, with a user with a clear conflict of interests. The accusations are ridiculous and wild. I wrote an arbuthnot article, and the only one I recall redirecting I did so after no substantive arguments were offered against redirection on the talk page discussion. As for ignoring consensus on an AfD - check the afd on the article I redirected, there was 'no consensus'. Anyone who knows the fraught history between myself and Giano knows that we are the least likely two wikipedians to be in a conspiracy together. Yet, here we agree - could we possibly be right?--Docg 19:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Can I add my bungle of twigs to this bonfire?
- Redirecting non-notable Arbuthnots to an overarching article that is notable makes perfect sense.
- There is no vendetta, hounding, bullying or baiting of Kittybrewster, at least in so far as people like Giano are making a good-faith effort to deal with the many non-notable Arbuthnot articles (although there has been some of that in Kittybrewster's other interaction with other Wikipedians).
- In my opinion, Kittybrewster's most recent edit did not deserve a 7 day block - he added a reference to the DNB! If someone disputes his assertion (by deleting the "notability" tag) that the article is notable, take it to AFD. I would unblock immediately. -- ALoan (Talk) 22:37, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
-
- Re: the title of this section, I don't think Giano was ignoring consensus at all he was following it as the majority of people seem in favour of not having articles about every Baronet just because they're a Baronet. I don't think it was necessary to block Kittybrewster for adding the DNB reference-if someone has a DNB article they are notable enough for an article here- I think a block would only be necessary if he started creating more family tree articles only sourced to that book. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 23:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Gustav, if KB thought that there was was extra information which could be added to the article, he could and should have followed the advice at WP:COI, and simply added a note to the talk page requesting that the information be added. And the most important point is that he should not' have unilaterally removed the {{notability}} tag from an article where there was a COI; in this case, I think that notability probably has been established, but that decision should not be made by an editor with a COI.
- However, when checking the validity of the reference, I found that most of the article was a blatant copyvio of the subject's DNB entry at http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/article/613 -- see Talk:Thomas Arbuthnot#Copyright_violation_from_DNB. The offending material was added by User:Frendraught, not by Kittybrewster. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:26, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Re: the title of this section, I don't think Giano was ignoring consensus at all he was following it as the majority of people seem in favour of not having articles about every Baronet just because they're a Baronet. I don't think it was necessary to block Kittybrewster for adding the DNB reference-if someone has a DNB article they are notable enough for an article here- I think a block would only be necessary if he started creating more family tree articles only sourced to that book. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 23:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I think Giano acted properly. The block on Kittybrewster may be excessive but he doesn't appear to accept that there's any problem with his editing despite many complaints in different venues. Does anyone have a cluestick? ·:·Will Beback ·:· 08:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- The problem with Kitybrewster is that he does not accept anything he is told by anyone. He fails to appreciate that this is intended to be a serious project. He seems to have limited interests in the project other than attempting to turn it a record of his own family history. I have been saying now for some weeks that a panel of three of four highly reputable admins need be set up to review all his pages with delegated powers to delete or amend without further consultation or debate. They could check all sources and claims and email known editors who are experts in certain fields to verify claims - this would eliminate the need for the confrontational and often inaccurate claims and arguments taking place over each AFD. I would go as far as to suggest that Mackensen (who has a good working knowledge of the peerage and the subject, and a respected Arbcom member, be appointed chairman. I will go further and suggest that Kittybrewster is banned from editing all Arbuthbot and related pages until the panel has finished its work, after that any edits he makes thereafter to the pages have to be through an independent intermediary who screens for POV and conflict of interest. Giano 11:08, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I think Giano acted properly. The block on Kittybrewster may be excessive but he doesn't appear to accept that there's any problem with his editing despite many complaints in different venues. Does anyone have a cluestick? ·:·Will Beback ·:· 08:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Good luck in finding your committee! But the second part (a community sanction preventing Kittybrewster from editing Arbuthnot articles directly) sounds like a pretty good idea to me. Presuambly we can impose such a sanction without bothering ArbCom? Power to the people, and all that. -- ALoan (Talk) 12:01, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Returned Labrador Retriever vandal
7raptor7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) / Silverlabrador (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has come back once again to add incorrect information to article Labrador Retriever (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). On May 22, they sent me an e-mail via Wikipedia containing fluff on how I am ruining Wikipedia and threatening to "monitor" me and then report me to some unnamed authority.
I had filed a complaint on the COI board in March, which can be found here. "Silverlabrador" was blocked indefinitely, as was I believe one or more of his IP addresses 65.73.71.*. For a time, the article itself was protected to keep them from editting. Sarrandúin [ Talk + Contribs ] 16:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- It looks like you reverted the article and that is the end of it for now. My suggestion is to monitor the article and if these sorts of edits continue from IPs post here again if it is 1 IP or request semi-protection if it is multiple IPs. Since that IP only made the change once and you reverted it, I think a block is premature at this point. If it continues and becomes disruptive, I'd be happy to revisit the issue.--Isotope23 17:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I have just reverted again- their IP address changes, but like I said, it's almost always a 65.73.71.*. I did add a mis-info warning template this time to their latest address. I've gone through the history and made note of the various addresses they've used on the Lab article (there were also edits to the talk page that I didn't bother with). I made this section between the last two May 30 edits. Sarrandúin [ Talk + Contribs ] 20:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- May 30- 65.73.71.124
- May 30- 65.73.71.113
- Feb 2-3- 65.73.71.87
- Dec 3, Jan 6- 65.73.71.41
- Jan 6- 65.73.71.19
- Jan 5- 65.73.70.182
- Jan 5- 65.73.71.116
- Jan 5- 65.73.71.33
- Jan 4- 65.73.71.47
- Jan 4- 65.73.71.49
- Jan 4- 65.73.71.123
- Jan 1- 65.73.71.97
- Dec 30- 65.73.70.146
- Dec 29- 65.73.71.95
- Dec 3- 65.73.71.118
- Dec 3- 65.73.71.107
- I have just reverted again- their IP address changes, but like I said, it's almost always a 65.73.71.*. I did add a mis-info warning template this time to their latest address. I've gone through the history and made note of the various addresses they've used on the Lab article (there were also edits to the talk page that I didn't bother with). I made this section between the last two May 30 edits. Sarrandúin [ Talk + Contribs ] 20:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- It looks like you reverted the article and that is the end of it for now. My suggestion is to monitor the article and if these sorts of edits continue from IPs post here again if it is 1 IP or request semi-protection if it is multiple IPs. Since that IP only made the change once and you reverted it, I think a block is premature at this point. If it continues and becomes disruptive, I'd be happy to revisit the issue.--Isotope23 17:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I semi-protected the page from IP edits.--Isotope23 20:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Two accounts apparently working in concert to get articles deleted
I've just come across two relatively new accounts that appear to be working in concert to get articles deleted. Betterone (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) went through a bunch of articles on April 29th and deleted substantial content from them. Today Notsomuch (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) went around most of those same articles adding speedy and prod tags - in some cases adding implausible claims about being unable to find mention of the subject with Google. I have removed the tags and reverted the deletions. I'm not sure if there is much more useful to be done, but thought it couldn't hurt to make others aware. -- Siobhan Hansa 18:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Wow... good catch. I blocked both accounts indefinitely. There is no way that one individual came along and edited out content and then a month later another individual came along and speedy delete nominated the exact same articles. This is disruption pure and simple... and they would have gotten away with it, if it wasn't for you meddling kids!--Isotope23 18:20, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
That's a very specific set of articles and there is a common link between then - a highly distruptive editor who ran a very impressive sounding but minor and NN agency and in the course of the AFD around the agency ran one of the most distruptive sockshows I've ever seen - I'll not mention the name because it's nothing more than a hunch of mine at this stage and because she got the foundation to remove all mention of her. However, I'd suggest that a few editors add those pages to their watchlists, if it's the person i'm thinking of - this could run and run. --Fredrick day 18:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Hmm, I think I know what you are talking about. I'll add them to my watchlist.--Isotope23 18:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Long-term problematic IP
67.87.69.5 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log): I wasn't aware it was possible to have this long a contribution list which consists almost entirely of vandalism (mostly falsely listing games for Virtual Console, in one case five different times) and not be indef-blocked. Nifboy 18:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Er, WP:AIV might be the place to go to here? For a nice, long block in case of more vandalism. Sandstein 18:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Unbelievably, I think nifboy may have a point. This user has been categorically been adding false information to Wikipedia for at least 5 or 6 months now. this type of vandalism is far worse than the "johnny is gay" vandalism because it makes Wikipedia untrue and brings it into disrepute. I suggest a very long block from any admin. Granted, IP's can change, but this is clearly a preventative block. The Evil Spartan 18:59, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Are all the edits false? I wouldn't know, as I'm not playing video games. Sandstein 19:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- It would appear, from my quick research, that at least most are. At very best, they're based on WP:CRYSTAL information, but more likely, it's fraudulent. For example, in my quick perusal, I found this user add Bloodstorm to the list of Wii games [93] [94], but there is no mention of this on the list standard list: [95]. This is just one of many examples. This is very destructive. The Evil Spartan 19:15, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Are all the edits false? I wouldn't know, as I'm not playing video games. Sandstein 19:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Would it be possible to get some sort of longer term block on this address? It appears to be the home addrss of a puppet master who has continually added hoax/nonsense about himself to WP. Please see warnings at User talk:200.198.98.67, User talk:Lauroroger, and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lauro Roger. Help blocking the usernames and/or protecting the AFD article would be appreciated. Thanks. The Evil Spartan 18:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- And now User:Heighallen has done it again, removing the AFD warnings. Would somebody please take a look at this? The Evil Spartan 20:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I blocked Heighallen (talk · contribs) for AFD disruption... On further reflection I closed the AFD and speedy deleted the article as page creation vandalism. We don't need to coddle self-promoters that fabricate sources.--Isotope23 21:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Bill Tegner and Millbanks
In initally came upon Bill Tegner when I found him altering other people's comments on talk pages [96], [97]. After a series of warning, he eventually stopped.
From that point, he started adding his own POV to articles such as:
Adding "Plastic Paddy" to the Ancient Order of Hibernians [98]
Pushing his personal POV in the Peter O'Toole article [99]
Adding "Plastic Paddy" to the Daniel Day-Lewis article [100]
Starting a thread on the talk page of "Plastic Paddy" about people he personally deems non-plastic and goes on to call me a plastic paddy [101]. This, after he had already made a rude remark about my being Irish [102]
After creating a new account, Millbanks (which he admitted to me), he continued to troll. On May 10, he stated: "Look, it's easy. Call the English English, the Welsh Welsh, and the Scots Scots. OK?" but then 10 days later he says: "Even the word British causes problems there, with ill-educated people writing to the press objecting to Scots and Welsh being called "British"." Those two sentences so directly contradict each other that it is obvious he is doing nothing but trolling.
A look through his edits under both names will show that the majority of his edits are article talk pages. His only article edits are minor grammatical changes or introducing his own POV (like calling Daniel Day-Lewis a "plastic paddy"). When I first confronted him, he simply abandoned the original account and started anew under a new name. If someone else could explain to him that Wikipedia article talk pages aren't message forums it might get through to him...but frankly I am a little short of good faith for this user and I think he is intentially screwing around. IrishGuy talk 18:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I have also witnessed this guys edits - in my opinion he is a pure troll, he does all his work on talk pages and drags up old arguments for the sake of an argument.--Vintagekits 19:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh dear. It is easier to call the English, English, etc., and that's my preference, and in most cases theirs too. But technically they, the Scots and Welsh are British, and that is a matter of FACT. Millbanks 22:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
That's not fair. I think my problem is that I make points that you are uncomfortable with. Look, if you use the phrase "any scolar" about being Irish, do you really expect me to take that seriously?
My recent article edits include the Anglican viewpoint on the Blessed Virgin; the relationship of Pope Pius VI with the Anglican Church; and the religion of Modern Celts. None of those are at all frivolous. Millbanks 22:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This matter is already as heated as it can be. With Ben unblocked and warned, let's all just try and remain cool - like Isotope wisely pointed out, we have several rough days ahead of us... Phaedriel - 20:40, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
I have blocked Ben-w (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for a month per this [103] on my talk page after this warning. If Phaedriel or someone wants to unblock him then fine, right now we don't need angry people with insufficient self-control. Guy (Help!) 19:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- (comments refactored by me) Methinks one month is excessive, and comes across as a temper block. This is not good. Besides, I'm not sure his self-control is any worse than Guy's (i.e., telling him to "fuck off"). He did nothing but question a bad unblock (albeit uncivilly, but so did Guy). It's a very bad idea to block a user for NPA after just engaging in one yourself against the same user. The Evil Spartan 19:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Ben-w was being a dick and stirring up trouble, but I can't agree with this block. It should be reduced or removed. JzG I think you were fine, up until blocking him. It doesn't look good to block someone for being rude to you, when it looks like a two-way street. Friday (talk) 19:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Incivility countered by incivility does nothing good for this project. Blocking somebody with your only warning involved giving them the option to "fuck off" does not seem appropriate. I am not condoning anybodys behavior here however, I have seen people do much much more in the way of acting uncivil with no consequences. Even if a block was warranted, it was perhaps an 8 hours cool down block but not a month. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 19:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- At the risk of upping the ante, I'm not sure Guy couldn't use his own block in this situation. The judgement you give, ought to be held back onto you. The Evil Spartan 19:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The "stirring up trouble" Friday was referring to was likely stuff like this, and I believe the length of the ban was to reflect the fact that it might take a while for the dispute Mr. Merkey was talking about on Phaedriel talk to be resolved. My instinct is that 8 hours would be a little short to prevent disruption of that reason, but I could be wrong. Smmurphy(Talk) 19:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Jesus Guy, a month seems pretty harsh, too harsh IMO. 74 Hours would have been more than enough to be honest.--Vintagekits 19:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) The "stirring up trouble" Friday was referring to was likely stuff like this, and I believe the length of the ban was to reflect the fact that it might take a while for the dispute Mr. Merkey was talking about on Phaedriel talk to be resolved. My instinct is that 8 hours would be a little short to prevent disruption of that reason, but I could be wrong. Smmurphy(Talk) 19:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- At the risk of upping the ante, I'm not sure Guy couldn't use his own block in this situation. The judgement you give, ought to be held back onto you. The Evil Spartan 19:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Incivility countered by incivility does nothing good for this project. Blocking somebody with your only warning involved giving them the option to "fuck off" does not seem appropriate. I am not condoning anybodys behavior here however, I have seen people do much much more in the way of acting uncivil with no consequences. Even if a block was warranted, it was perhaps an 8 hours cool down block but not a month. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 19:44, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- As Guy said "If Phaedriel or someone wants to unblock him then fine..." I've unblocked him. Time for everyone to remember WP:COOL.--Isotope23 20:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Would an administrator please semi-protect this page for 30-days to stop vandalism of the current event article. PianoKeys 20:02, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- This page is now on afd, SqueakBox 20:19, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Big deal, anybody can stick a +tag on an article, it is the vandalism that is the problem, not the afd +tag. PianoKeys 01:20, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Anonymous edits to Kamikaze
An anonymous editor has been reverted sourced content in this article. Each edit is from a different IP in Japan (and the IP is used only once for this edit). The sentence taken out refers to conscript Koreans serving as Kamizazes in World War II. Requests to discuss this deletion (first on edit summaries, and most recently at Talk:Kamikaze#Korean_Kamikaze_pilots_.28part_2.29) are being ignored. Questions:
- Is there anything else that can be done?
- Will continued reversions of these unexplained deletions of sourced content be considered a content dispute, edit war, or 3-revert violation?
Kablammo 21:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Well, they're not doing it anymore, so I would think it has stopped. --əˈnongahy ♫Look What I've Done!♫ 21:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
It's been a slow-moving sequence, [104] [105] [106] [107] [108] [109] [110] [111] [112] [113] [114] [115] but they'll be back. Kablammo 21:59, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- And it continues: [116][117][118]; repeated requests to discuss are being ignored. Kablammo 08:39, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I've put a three-day semi on it, maybe that will discourage them. --Golbez 09:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Indefinite block of User:Bijanse
Netsnipe (talk · contribs) has blocked Bijanse (talk · contribs) indefinitely, leaving the following explanation:
- "You have now been blocked from editing en.wikipedia.org due to your persistently disruptive edits including inserting poorly written English into articles and repeatly breaking links. If you wish to contribute to the Wikipedia, please do so using your native language at pl.wikipedia.org."
Bijanse has one earlier block of twenty-four hours. I've left Netsnipe a message, asking him to lift the block, but I thought that I'd better mention it here too. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 22:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Endorse block. I can see few if any useful edits, but several page blankings and insertions of word salad. Not being able to spell in English isn't bad per se, but trying to edit the English language Wikipedia in spite of it is. Support unblock once the user reacts to talk messages and indicates he wants to try to understand how we work here. Sandstein 22:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- General Comment If you don't have a firm grasp of another language, you shouldn't be messing around on that languages Wikipedia. For example, I have a Latin account; I registered it to make a single edit to an article (to add an image from Commons), but made damn sure to explain that I couldn't actually speak the language.[119] If you can't speak English well, keep your contributions here to a minimum. EVula // talk // ☯ // 22:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with Sandstein. "Blocks are preventative, not punitive" goes both ways-it may also mean a block purely for prevention of harm is acceptable, whether or not the person blocked was acting in bad faith. In this case, the block is preventing harmful edits, whether the editor who was blocked intends them to be so or not. If that editor were to post a clear unblock request stating that he's willing to refrain from making such edits until he learns some more, I'd support unblocking him in a second, but right now I just don't see any actually constructive contributions, regardless of intent. Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:50, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- I don't know, none of the 3 or 4 edits on the 1st page of contribs were that bad (or even reverted for that matter). I don't think we should be blocking good faith (non-vandal) editors quite so fast...RxS 00:46, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I find it worying, to put it mildly, that most of those responding have such a poor grasp of our blocking policy. An indefinite block just isn't warranted here — and we don't block people for poor English (if we did, we'd have about twenty or so editors left standing); a block of forty-eight hours would have been fine. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 09:01, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I totally agree. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 11:37, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
JB196
His latest sockdrawers are open now the following pages are unprotected - Tommy Dreamer, Rob Zicari, Janet Romano and Xtreme Pro Wrestling. Admins required to play whack a mole please. Thanks. One Night In Hackney303 23:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Toryugate (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is the first one. One Night In Hackney303 23:39, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Killed it—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 23:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Based on previous experience, there will be plenty more where that one came from. One Night In Hackney303 23:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Also has targeted Extreme Associates in the past. I have all five on my watchlist. SirFozzie 23:46, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Based on previous experience, there will be plenty more where that one came from. One Night In Hackney303 23:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Killed it—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 23:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Another one: Moneyindabankkk (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) --YFB ¿ 00:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Yougotthefling (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) --YFB ¿ 00:20, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Ruckus Tower (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) --YFB ¿ 00:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Ferryut (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). One Night In Hackney303 01:36, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Fraction Dynamic (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) --YFB ¿ 02:49, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
December 20 under attack (vandalism)
December 20 is under attack by two IP vandals. Is the page referenced somewhere or otherwise suddenly increased in notability? Requesting an sprot on the article for an hour; I'll go hand out warnings for repeated vandalism to the two IP's, and we'll see how it shakes out. Jouster (whisper) 00:59, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- It's just two IP vandals, tag-teaming. Blocked both (they've had way too much fun). Sprot'd for an hour, just in case ... - Alison ☺ 01:05, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Would this be considered retaliation?
My watchlist notified me of a talk discussion on an article I created called Bippu. However, upon seeing another link, i'm getting the feeling that the proposed redirect is nothing more than a retaliation over a vadalism tag I gave to User:Willirennen a while back (He "Updated" someone elses edits which didn't match the article title]). While I just decided to wash myself of the spat and move on, it seems Willirennen wants to punish me for tagging him a vandal. Before I accuse him of adopting retaliation tactics, can anyone advise if it seems like it or not? I have much better things to do than argue over a past wound. --293.xx.xxx.xx 01:41, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- No sign of a retaliation. His action is totally legit though he missed the point that when proposing a merger there should be 2 articles. He just meant a redirect! "VIP style" hasn't existed before. You just remove the merge tag as VIP style is a redirect page and forget about the retaliation allegation. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 01:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Alright, just wanted a clarification. Thanks. --293.xx.xxx.xx 02:01, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Requesting user block
Requesting a block on Nikolai vulinovich (talk · contribs) as, while username is not unacceptable per se, users contributions suggest it is actually someone else making personal attacks against Mr. Vulinovich (including the deleted page Youse a bitch and the hopefully soon to be deleted Nikolai vulinovich). Confusing Manifestation 02:19, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Indef as a vandalism-only account. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 02:29, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Wrestler pages vandalism
Several new Users have been hitting various professional wrestler articles making ill-advised edits, then leaving, coming back as new users and doing the same thing. For example, see Booker Huffman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), just one of many. In the last day, it's been hit by User:216.20.76.217, User:Toryugate, User:Moneyindabankkk, User:Yougotthefling, User:Ruckus Tower, User:Ferryut and User:Hi Fi Dorado. And now Hi Fi Dorado is using the edit summary Sorry, the reason I took so long in between the last set was I was busy calling in sick to work tomorrow so I can have some more fun with these articles tomorrow.. Corvus cornix 02:32, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- That's the latest JB196 sockfarm, already mentioned above. Admins are playing whack a mole on each account. One Night In Hackney303 02:34, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Burntsauce and edit summaries
Burntsauce (talk · contribs) has been asked on three separate occasions by three seperate users to start using edit summaries as his edits are either adding {{unreferenced}} tags to articles, prodding an article, tagging the article for speedy deletion or AfDing an article. As he uses no tags for these and edits large varieties or articles at a time it's impossible to know what he is doing to articles without going through each and every edit (as seen here). There would be no problem if he was actually editing articles but as he seems to only add tags to articles while not contributing to any article it makes it a necessity he uses edit summaries. Could an admin please request, or more forcibly, get him to begin using edit summaries? He has ignored and deleted every request on his talk page to begin using edit summaries. –– Lid(Talk) 02:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think we can force him to use edit summaries. If he doesn't want to, then let him be. bibliomaniac15 An age old question... 02:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- It is when the edits are deletion requests, part of their policy requires an edit summary so its known the article has been listed for deletion (eith afd, prod or speedy). –– Lid(Talk) 03:03, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Notification that one has proposed an article for deletion is a courtesy, not a requirement. Seraphimblade Talk to me 03:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- It is when the edits are deletion requests, part of their policy requires an edit summary so its known the article has been listed for deletion (eith afd, prod or speedy). –– Lid(Talk) 03:03, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- While I would agree that drive-by cleanup tagging without edit summary is a rude and unhelpful thing to do, drive-by deletion nomination without edit summary crosses the line into disruptive behaviour.
- Think about it–suppose that one editor has an article watchlisted. This editor assumes that an edit by another etablished editor (Burntsauce, in this cause) is probably reasonable, or at least non-vandalism. (Figure it was only a eleven characters, and WP:AGF.) The article disappears five days later, because the edit was actually to add a PROD tag.
- Burntsauce has been here for three months. Either he learns to use edit summaries for major edits (edits that dramatically alter an article's content, or edits which may result in an article's deletion) or he loses his editing privileges. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:54, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
You can notify him of this thread. Maybe that would change his habits. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 03:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I have asked Burntsauce to provide descriptive edit summaries when he nominates articles for deletion in the future. Please notify me if he should fail to do so in the future; I am prepared to take any necessary enforcement action. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 04:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I agree that it's improper to nominate articles for XfD or PROD without any notification in the edit summary. If the editor has been pointed to the deletion policy, asked to comply, yet doess not change his behavior then it becomes an issue for enforcrment. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 08:17, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Platanogenius and Sockpuppets
- Fabre08 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) a sockpuppet of Platanogenius (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Persistant vandal who has been blocked on previous occassions has come back with personal vendetta's, racism and utilized sockpuppets in order bypass a block. Platanogenius was blocked 2 days ago and Fabre08 shows up on the same article making the same edits with unreferenced sources.[120] [121],[122] [123], [124] [125] and [126] . Please block user. YoSoyGuapo 01:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- checkuser initiated for IP socks as well of 70.177.181.129. and 24.44.231.189 [127] YoSoyGuapo 04:30, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Sockpuppet infested AFD discussion
I was reading the past couple days of AFD discussions and came across Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/GameTZ.com(3rd nom). It's been nominated before by single-purpose accounts and this was apparently another SPA nomination. And the process itself was filled with sockpuppetry, including a great many editors editing from open proxies that have since been blocked. Since the discussion itself was unproductive and filled with bad-faith sockpuppets, I have boldly closed it. If a good-faith user wants to reopen the discussion, I strongly suggest careful attention from administrators and perhaps even a requirement that any contributor to the AFD have a certain minimum number of edits. For what it's worth, I have no involvement at all with the article itself and have never edited it. *** Crotalus *** 05:24, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
WP:3RR as a tool
- Recent events
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR#User:Smee reported by User:Lsi john (Result: No Block)
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR#User:Smee reported by User:Lsi john (Result:self-reverted)
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR#User:Smee reported by User:Lsi john (Result: Page protected)
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR#Smee (formerly Smeelgova) at work; WP:OWN; WP:BITE
- Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR#User:Smee reported by User:Lsi john (Result: 72 hours)
I should explain that I edit and usually agree with Smee in the interest of full disclosure to those who don't know. Because of that I've held off posting here to see if anyone more neutral noticed this situation. Now it's reached a point where the fact that Lsi john and Justanother are out to harass Smee by calling almost every edit which contradicts someone else's a "revert" and posting it on the WP:3RR page.
The incidents in bold are especially egregious because they include the same situation: 4. [128] and 5. [129] are one edit apart and both Justanother and Lsi john have called it a WP:BITE as well.
When one considers the fact that Spacecraft is the plural for spacecraft, just like moose is both singular and plural. Fixing mistakes is not biting either. Anynobody 06:47, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- A full rationale has been provided to Smee. It's a run-of-the-mill reverting warring block, escalated to 72 hours because of past behaviour. Marskell 08:32, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
correct to blank talkpage?/copyvio
an IP editor seems intent on blank this section of a talkpage as he claims it "breaks rules/ is a legal threat" - as far as I see, no rules are broken and indeed, if there is a copyvio then editors need to be aware of it. just need a quick second view. --Fredrick day 06:48, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- He appears to be intent on policing that page for some reason, despite the fact it has no real demonstrable legal threat or copyvio. --Haemo 06:53, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- However, based on his edits to http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Black_Library_gaming_%28Warhammer_40%2C000%29&diff=prev&oldid=134743236 this] page, I'd bet dollars to donuts it's SanchiTachi back from his self-imposed exile - considering he appears to have a focus on correct naming, and is reinserted very subtle edits that SanchiTachi edit warred over before. --Haemo 06:55, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- he's currently banned - checkuser maybe? --Fredrick day 06:57, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I did so, since I need the experience - though it's a pretty thin case, I think I'm right. Too coincidental for my likes. --Haemo 07:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
How long is too long?
- Joxerman (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) recently vandalized Atlantic Records, and when I went to look at his talk page, I noticed that he had well, numerous last warnings from about 20 days ago. The Vadalism report page doesn't really specify a "reasonable" time period in between vandalism attacks to get it listed there, so i'm kinda wondering what is the acceptable time frame?293.xx.xxx.xx 07:36, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Hmmmm... I never seen a vandal only account getting warned again numerous times. Usually for most, if they continue to vandalise after their fourth and final warning given to them, they will be blocked indefinitely. There isn't any specific time frame I guess. It really depends. Terence 07:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I count at least 3 "last warnings", then the guy stops, and continues again with a good edit, then a copycat vandalism that is causing problems at Atlantic Records. Surely one of the last warnings counts as the final warning? --293.xx.xxx.xx 07:54, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Hmmmm... I never seen a vandal only account getting warned again numerous times. Usually for most, if they continue to vandalise after their fourth and final warning given to them, they will be blocked indefinitely. There isn't any specific time frame I guess. It really depends. Terence 07:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
He was blocked before this discussion started! Often it's not worth an admins time to paste blocked messages on these troll's accounts so it's worth looking at the block log. Thanks/wangi 07:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Now I know.....--293.xx.xxx.xx 08:02, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Warnings are not relevant if the account is only used for trolling/vandalism as the block log statement and the user's contributions indicate. We usually block vandalism-only accounts for an indefinite period of time. If you see our policy page regarding blocks, which is WP:BLOCK, you can see under the section titled Duration of blocks it states the following: blocks on types of user accounts considered disruptive are typically of indefinite duration. I should also point out that indefinite is not equivalent to infinite, users can always appeal their indefinite blocks and there have been many cases where user's who used accounts solely for vandalism have promised to stop in order to have their accounts unblocked.--Jersey Devil 08:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
possible hack attack in the future
More of of it. I hate to bring it up but someone should look here and possibly consider an expedited ISP report to Yahoo. I looked at the ISP page and it was very backlogged. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 08:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC) http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_%28A_to_Z%29/Stocks_S/threadview?m=tm&bn=2942&tid=423655&mid=423655&tof=1&frt=2
Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 08:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I'd post this under "nothing to see here" - someone on a talkboard making a lot of big talk - so what? --Fredrick day 08:18, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Good title. No its ok. At least there's a pointer to it. Thanks. Jeffrey Vernon Merkey 08:21, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Jeff, I suggest you collect this stuff at User:Jeffrey Vernon Merkey/Yahoos or some such, there is something to see there, but not much, and not at this moment requiring urgent intervention. You don't want it to get lost in the noise, I think. Guy (Help!) 09:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Archive it in your personal space Jeff. Fredrick is probably correct though, it looks like typical trolling. I somehow doubt this person is even half as clever as they think they are...--Isotope23 13:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Jeff, I suggest you collect this stuff at User:Jeffrey Vernon Merkey/Yahoos or some such, there is something to see there, but not much, and not at this moment requiring urgent intervention. You don't want it to get lost in the noise, I think. Guy (Help!) 09:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Disrupting editing and personal attacks by Rert2
Rert2 is a single purpose account (See: contributions) he disrupts discussions at the Talk:Audio_mastering by attacking me personally. He continues to place an external link to an Amazon.com book, written by a mastering engineer on the subject of mastering. (See: [130][131][132][133] disregarding the fact that there is a template at the talk page that urges all editors to discuss any proposed external links or additions to the present article. In the past, such type of links have been dismissed as inappropriate, per WP Links normally to be avoided. First of all, his personal attacks have been unwarranted and geared to divert attention (See: [134][135][136] He claims here that I call myself a "spammer" [137][138] [139] and he had been warned 4 times to stop (See: [140][141][142][143]) In addition, another user who goes under "VinylJoe" seems to be in connection or in agreement with rert2 and without further discussions. (See [contributions]. This raises the possibility that Rert2 maybe using sock puppetry to get a greater consensus for the inclusion of said inappropriate external link. I hope you can help stop this disrupting and bad faith user. Thank you. Jrod2 00:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- First, I have looked through all the links that you provided shows that disruptive editing by Rert2. but I think that he might have made numerous sockpuppets to disrupt the wikipedia. Daniel 5127 03:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Despatched. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 09:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Sockpuppet needing attention
Trolldor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is restoring content that has been deleted, originally created by Eternal dragon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). This includes creating amusing redirects like Psycho bitch to Paris Hilton, etc. I smell WP:SOCKs. Could someone please block? Flyguy649talkcontribs 09:07, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Despatched. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 09:12, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
JB196 sock
Ferocious Driver (talk · contribs) whack-a-mole. –– Lid(Talk) 12:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- FortworthFan (talk · contribs) and the accounts created in the log are also socks. –– Lid(Talk) 13:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Giano blocked
Hemlock Martinis (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) has blocked Giano II (talk · contribs) for 'incivility'. I have requested he explain his action here, so that it might be reviewed. Please everyone stay cool. We can do this in good order.--Docg 14:37, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I disagree with the block, I can't see anything derserving one in Giano's contribs, yes he's strong with words, but he hasn't been incivil. Ryan Postlethwaite 14:38, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see any good justification for this block. We're allowed to say someone's edits are bad, if that's what we think. How else would a collaborative editing project work? Friday (talk) 14:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I also disagree with this block and invite an explanation. Given some of the things I've seen written the last few days, the term I would use is "proportionate," and even then he's hardly the worst offender. The Arbuthnot articles are a mess. Mackensen (talk) 14:42, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
OK, I'm giving the blocking admin 30 min to explain himself here. Let's not rush to condemn him until he does. If he's not explained by then, we unblock. Agreed?--Docg 14:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- While Giano's comments were perhaps a bit over the top, realistically this block isn't going to have any positive effect here (though I understand why Hemlock Martinis enacted it). Correct me if I'm wrong, but have we not gone down this road before (i.e. civility blocks on Giano) and seen this be ineffective? IMO, we don't block someone for stating an opinion no matter how blunt it is.--Isotope23 14:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I think Giano's comments were unfortunate, but I think it highly unproductive for the project to block Giano. I will unblock him if someone doesn't do so first.
- James F. (talk) 14:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Err, the proper time and place for a legitimate explanation was when the block was made, on Giano's talk page. I've no objections to an unblock sometime soon, unless more information turns up which would make it justified. Friday (talk) 14:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- (multiple e/c) I find no justification of any nature for this block and am inclined to reverse it summarily, but will join in allowing the blocking administrator an opportunity to be heard. Newyorkbrad 14:46, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with the block. Referring to another as a "menace" to the project is highly inappropriate. Further, when the Hemlock Martinis approached him to cool him down (see User_talk:Giano_II#Civility) Giano attacked him, with comments such as "I wish to proceed with something more useful than time-wasting and facetious debate with you". Giano has repeatedly been blocked in the past for civility concerns. While additional blocks for civility may not produce corrective results in Giano, it must be done anyways; we don't stop blocking people just because blocking them doesn't work and thus give them a free pass to be uncivil to whomever they like whenever they like. The block was clearly warranted. --Durin 14:46, 31 May 2007 (UTC)