→Statement by QEDK: sign & indent |
m →Statement by QEDK: spelling |
||
Line 48: | Line 48: | ||
::* {{tq|... our most useful editors and admins will be perpetually bogged down by 'inquiry commissions'.}} I don't know, dude. Some weak-minded useful editors could also leave after a ''respectable'' admin wishes them with the extremely civil, "Fuck off, troll." |
::* {{tq|... our most useful editors and admins will be perpetually bogged down by 'inquiry commissions'.}} I don't know, dude. Some weak-minded useful editors could also leave after a ''respectable'' admin wishes them with the extremely civil, "Fuck off, troll." |
||
:: With this, I rest my case. --<span style="font-family:'Tahoma',Geneva,sans-serif">[[User:QEDK|QEDK]] <small>([[User talk:QEDK|<span style="color:green">T</span>]] 📖 [[Special:Contributions/QEDK|<span style="color:red">C</span>]])</small></span> 08:57, 16 January 2016 (UTC) |
:: With this, I rest my case. --<span style="font-family:'Tahoma',Geneva,sans-serif">[[User:QEDK|QEDK]] <small>([[User talk:QEDK|<span style="color:green">T</span>]] 📖 [[Special:Contributions/QEDK|<span style="color:red">C</span>]])</small></span> 08:57, 16 January 2016 (UTC) |
||
::: Reply to Ihardlythinkso: Chillum/HighInBC and Sitush regularly interact with/support FPAS on this |
::: Reply to Ihardlythinkso: Chillum/HighInBC and Sitush regularly interact with/support FPAS on this project. You can presume they're his friends or talk page stalkers, I guess. --<span style="font-family:'Tahoma',Geneva,sans-serif">[[User:QEDK|QEDK]] <small>([[User talk:QEDK|<span style="color:green">T</span>]] 📖 [[Special:Contributions/QEDK|<span style="color:red">C</span>]])</small></span> 09:09, 16 January 2016 (UTC) |
||
=== Statement by The Rambling Man === |
=== Statement by The Rambling Man === |
Revision as of 09:12, 16 January 2016
Requests for arbitration
Future Perfect at Sunrise
Initiated by QEDK (T 📖 C) at 09:53, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Involved parties
- QEDK (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), filing party
- The Rambling Man (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- StuRat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Cassianto (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Future Perfect at Sunrise (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
- Special:Diff/699935360
- Special:Diff/699935422
- Special:Diff/699945060
- Special:Diff/699935447
- Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried
- Special:Diff/699489271#WP:Civility Violation by Future Perfect at Sunrise
- Threads at FPAS' talkpage (User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise Special:Diff/698546538#"because it's a banned user; can't you read the page history?" ?)
Statement by QEDK
I would probably not have cared except for this thinly veiled threat which I received from FPAS (Special:Diff/699646315#Your suggestion at ANI) for receiving a message from an IP, (which happened to be one of the many owned by Vote (X) for Change). It was promptly rev-deled and now, oversighted as defamatory. Funnily enough, his threat that I shouldn't restore it was useless because I'm not an admin. The first time I read it, the only thing I felt was that he was incompetent (don't remember anything libellous about it). Anyway, I didn't save a copy and don't remember any of it. I would elaborate on the issue with FPAS which came up on ANI but it'd be better if the really involved parties spoke for themselves. The diff which caused the row at ANI (Special:Diff/698543562). Overall, FPAS has failed to be polite, assume good faith and executed involved blocks which go against policy and sets a precedent for admin abuse. --QEDK (T 📖 C) 09:53, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Reply to Johnuniq: Hey, I don't know about you but
unless you want to be held responsible for the truth of every single word of it just as if you had written it originally yourself
seems like a threat hid inside a well-written web of obfuscation and since it was a direct reply to me, the responsibility interpreting it lies with me and I've done so. Also, your link to the ANI archive is redundant as I've already included it in the "Confirmation" subsection of this case. --QEDK (T 📖 C) 11:28, 15 January 2016 (UTC) - Reply to Dweller: As the filing party, I've done so. --QEDK (T 📖 C) 11:44, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Reply to Mrjulesd: He hasn't apologised once and kept justifying his actions by twisting our policies. And the issue has already been tried at ANI, see "Confirmation" section above - where it was closed, saying that this should be deferred to ArbCom instead. --QEDK (T 📖 C) 14:24, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- General comment::*sigh* Sometimes it appears as if uninvolved parties don't give a damn about the filing party's statement. It's not just about FPAS' conduct and this case might involve the trolls but they're not the subject of discussion right now. --QEDK (T 📖 C) 15:34, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- To whomsoever it may concern. If you get offended, I don't care:
The trolls win if this case is accepted.
Good joke. The troll here in question might have a vendetta against FPAS but I guess that's just incidental. This case was never about the trolls but NYB and everyone latching on has evidently made it so. Sure, that's an issue but really, ArbCom contacting legal about it shouldn't give extra credibility to it (anyone could've but no one has, wow!), if it does it's just unfair. Honestly, if you're giving this rationale for declining the case, I must say, WHAT THE HELL. Let bygones be bygones cuz sure the troll was expecting all this drama and he's definitely feeding on it. You don't know, you don't say. The fact that any ArbCom member would support such a rationale for the purpose of declining a case is surprising. Honestly, if you think that seeing someone blocked without proper rationale and someone else abused for no reason as a trade-off for let's say, not feeding trolls, there's something with your personality.Other admins (and at least one arb) periodically use words that some people (not me) find offensive ...
Is not a suitable justification as to why FPAS did it too. Also, if that arb member is still on board, I'd like to see such a personal attack presented in public view. Maybe, he/she is the one setting such a precedent.Arbitration at this point is unneeded.
Ha! Let's trout-slap FPAS' incivility out of him. There's a difference between not knowing and not abiding.sanctioning individual administrators for desiring a strong ... attitude when dealing with them is not going to solve anything.
The strong attitude is just purposeful abusive language. FPAS didn't just show off his attitude, he blocked two people over it.... focus should be on dealing with the root cause, i.e. long-term IP abuse by a banned user, especially at the unprotected RefDesks ...
What the hell? This is exactly the problem, with this case right now. This case is supposed to deal with FPAS' conduct as an admin and we have people justifying it by saying there are more real issues. To reiterate, what the hell?(FPAS) ... become too frustrated with people who don't share his knowledge about and/or concern with these two banned trolls.
Not a bad summarization, but again no one really gives a damn about what happened to StuRat, do they? As far as I can see, FPAS isn't just frustrated with his opposition, he intends to wipe them out.I believe this drama to be unproductive.
Hehe. Haha. Hoho. Exactly why I call this place, DRAMACOM. Besides, who doesn't like a dysfunctional useless piece of bureaucracy to be a part of the system. But, hey, I'm fine with it, not complaining.I would like FP@S to tone it down a bit.
Congrats on being the 666,777,888th person to ask FPAS to do it. But he doesn't give a shit, does he? I mean, like, the self-righteous never apologize, right?The troll problem should not get a case.
I probably paid Müdigkeit to say this. In fact, probably the only well summarized statement for this case right now.FP@S mistakenly swore at them.
This is wrong on so many levels, sort of like crime in multi-storey car parks. If you know this joke, you probably live in Edinburgh. I just happen to read BBC.Most of this is now gone per WP:DENY.
I beg to differ, sire. We don't necessarily feed the trolls if we reprimand/banish/admonish/roast/shoot the concerned admin. Whoever played the DENY card is just trying another way to justify conduct issues of admins on this project.... our most useful editors and admins will be perpetually bogged down by 'inquiry commissions'.
I don't know, dude. Some weak-minded useful editors could also leave after a respectable admin wishes them with the extremely civil, "Fuck off, troll."
- With this, I rest my case. --QEDK (T 📖 C) 08:57, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- Reply to Ihardlythinkso: Chillum/HighInBC and Sitush regularly interact with/support FPAS on this project. You can presume they're his friends or talk page stalkers, I guess. --QEDK (T 📖 C) 09:09, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
- To whomsoever it may concern. If you get offended, I don't care:
Statement by The Rambling Man
A 48-hour block with talk-page revoked was placed on me by FPAS with the block summary "harassment, proxying for banned editors" for me restoring a response on my own talkpage to an IP who had pointed me to some interesting behaviour from FPAS. The block was rejected by an uninvolved admin 17 minutes later and I was unblocked (with the unblock summary Over-reaction, and policy is not as clear about edits to one's own talk page as implied by this block). In my opinion, it was an involved block from what appears to be a trigger-happy individual who appears to have a history of problematic contributions. If FPAS had spent some time explaining to me on my talkpage who the IP was and why he would have preferred me not to restore the material, or if FPAS had requested intervention from another admin, or even if FPAS had provided a talkpage warning with relevant links instead of using threatening and bad faith edit summaries, none of this would have been problematic. That's all I'll contribute to this. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:10, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Keilana @Doug Weller @Opabinia regalis: all the declining Arbs have failed to bother to look into the problematic admin behaviour here. They're missing the point entirely. I'm surprised, as it's what we have come to expect, but it's an omnishambles to overlook the behavioural competence failures of FPAS. Don't let the overarching (and ongoing, and generic) issue of IP vandals divert attention to the behaviour of rogue admins.
- @Kirill Lokshin. Assuming that every admin on Wikipedia is aware of every single banned IP and all their guises and that they then (in your own words) "enabling harassment" is a real eye-opener to your approach here. Forget good faith, eh? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:12, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by StuRat
Repeating the diff from QEDK: Special:Diff/698543562, FPaS said "go fuck yourself" in the edit summary and "fuck off, troll" in the body. I am by no means a troll, as I have made thousands of edits, and have been in good standing here for many years. My comment was a politely worded notification that he made an incorrect statement in his edit summary, and this was how he reponded. From other Admins, I understand that Admins are never punished in any way for violating civility rules (and I was threatened by them for even bringing it up), while an editor who said that to an Admin might very well be blocked. Why is this exactly ? Have we set up a system where Admins are above the law ? I'd settle for an apology, but FPaS seems unwilling to even do that much to be civil. StuRat (talk) 21:10, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Cassianto
I am currently on holiday, so my time here will be brief. However, I would like to comment on this further when I get back. What I will say for now is that I have had the misfortune to have met the ironically named "Future Perfect at Sunrise" twice now and each time has been equally unpleasant. He/she abused their tools a few days ago by blocking me without a warning and not allowing me to explain my innocent actions. I will comment further when I return on Sunday, but for now, I'd say take the tools away. CassiantoTalk 21:54, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Future Perfect at Sunrise
This is the same tired old situation we've seen dozens of times. Banned serial sockpuppeter A wants to harass editor B, so he seeks out unrelated editor C who he perceives as being potentially hostile to B and tries to enlist him as an ally, posting negative allegations about B on their talkpage. If C has a brain and a sense of human decency, he will easily recognize the game for what it is, and immediately remove the banned user's posting themselves. If not, then B is left with a dilemma: either he leaves the offending posting in place, or he requests intervention from third parties (which means losing time and drawing wider attention to the harassing postings on noticeboards, giving the banned user even more publicity), or he opts to quickly revert the banned user himself, risking an angry reaction from C. It has long been my firm position that the correct way of dealing with this is to choose option three, and be uncompromising and unapologetic about it. If C then decides to raise a stink (as they all too often do), so much the worse for them.
At this point I'll only comment on the charge of "involved" admin action. No, it wasn't. As we all know, an admin doesn't become "WP:INVOLVED" with an editor if he has interacted with them purely in an administrative function. And we don't let users make themselves immune from admin action by simply opting to react to it with abuse towards the admin in question and then claiming their own abuse to be grounds for "involvement". This is exactly what happened both between me and the banned troll in question here (User:Vote (X) for Change), and between me and The Rambling Man, so I was (and still am) uninvolved with either. I intervened with an administrative warning against The Rambling Man the other day in a completely unrelated matter, because I found him edit-warring over some trivial squabble on the refdesk talkpages [1][2][3]. To this, TRM reacted with this [4] stream of invective, including even a threat of counter-blocking (Now, incidentally, that's indeed a clear expression of intended misuse of admin tools on his part that would deserve a desysopping!). This was the full extent of intraction between TRM and me by the time banned "Vote (X)" decided to piggy-back on the situation with the abusive posting in question. TRM displayed his lack of competence by rewarding it with friendly encouragement, and then chose to play the tired old "but there wasn't any proof it was a banned user" card when I removed it. I gave him two very clear warnings about it, he chose to edit-war the banned troll's posting back in on the page nevertheless, so I blocked, as I would have blocked any other user in that situation – still acting from the same position of legitimate uninvolvement both with respect to the banned user and with respect to him. (The fact that the banned user's harassment happened to be directed against myself is entirely immaterial to this.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:15, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Johnuniq
A banned user has caused a tremendous amount of disruption by frequently posting trolling messages. As in past cases, the only defense is WP:DENY, yet it is not possible to deny while demonstrating beyond reasonable doubt to uninvolved editors that a particular post was from the banned user. Some editors resist attempts to revert posts and that generates considerable disruption as the small number of people willing to patrol the area know that any fuss encourages the troll to redouble their efforts.
Similar problems arose from WP:ARBR&I and the situation was resolved with this motion: "To reduce disruption, the Committee resolves that no editor may restore any reverted edit made by a banned editor [within R&I].
"
Whatever the outcome from this case request, the disruption from the banned user will continue, and my suggestion would be for the Committee to apply a form of the above motion for the banned user at the heart of this dispute. If anyone is concerned that an editor is over-zealous in the removal of posts, concerns should be raised at WP:AE. WP:AE should also handle any cases of editors resisting the removal of such posts.
This case request should not be accepted as there is no suggestion of anything other than an isolated incident. I do not see any threat in the diffs in QEDK's statement, and the diff concerning incivility was handled in this ANI archive. Johnuniq (talk) 11:06, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by [uninvolved] Dweller
I suggest that Cassianto, who was blocked, without warning by FPAS, be added as a party. See this discussion.
For my part, I have concerns about FPAS' extreme incivility ("Fuck off troll" is no way for an admin to address another user, and on top of an RfC largely reflecting on FPAS's incivility), an INVOLVED block and blocking without warning. Any one of those would, in my view, be cause for ArbCom to accept this case. All three? It's rather alarming. --Dweller (talk) 11:45, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- @FPAS, as your statement currently exceeds 500 words, perhaps you could remove the bit where you cunningly disguise a personal attack on TRM (the bit about having "a brain and a sense of human decency"). Thanks. --Dweller (talk) 12:21, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Only in death
Contrary to Johanniq's last diff, this is not an isolated incident and nothing was actually dealt with regarding the incivility by FPAS. It was closed (as is usual for civility violations involving administrators) with the usual 'oh they are dealing in a difficult area' excuses and swept under the rug. It is never acceptable for an administrator to answer a good faith enquiry from an editor who is under no sanctions and in good standing with 'Fuck off troll'. FPAS' problems with incivility are not new. Pretty much everyone who has had to deal with FPAS knows to either ignore it, or just avoid them because it is highly unlikely any action will be taken given the low regard the civility policies/pillar is given by administrators, arbcom, and the WMF. Comments from his RFC generally fall into three camps 'he is incivil', 'he is incivil but we are going to excuse it', and 'not going to address the civility'. Very very few people who commented there actually were willing to say 'he is a civil person to collaborate with'. And that was in 2008, I have yet to notice a significant improvement in his dealings with others when he enforces (in his opinion)'the rules'. FPAS likes to edit others talkpages when in his enforcer mode. Quite apart from the stupidity of the advice in general (how the hell am I supposed to know *in advance* that an IP user is a sock of a banned user, check every IP comment on my talkpage to see if they have a pattern of edits relating elsewhere? Check SPI? Call Derek Acorah?) its a pointless edit. A day later and all it does is serve FPAS in demonstrating their authority. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:36, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Just to add, see Sitush comment below for a common attitude towards civility. Although I will point out there is a world of difference between using 'colourful' language in general, and using it directed *at* editors. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:13, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- To add - I dont disagree with Sitush's evaluation of the current situation, I dont care however if people are alienated. Tough. Either affirm the civility policies/guidelines/pillar as they are written and wikipedia currently pays lip service to, or accept they are meaningless and just scrap the lot. At least then editors will have a realistic expection of how they will be treated. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:39, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Mrjulesd - FPAS has been at RFC (before it was nuked) and AN/ANI in the past (and recently). There are no further community steps before arbcom for Administrator conduct. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:09, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- sigh* And the below comments indicate the problem, the civility issues are not with how FPAS treats socks/banned users, its how he treats other editors.
- Question to NYB, any reason why Admins should be allowed to tell editors in good standing to "fuck off troll"? Only in death does duty end (talk) 19:56, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Courcelles, there is stuff like this between the latest civility issues and the earlier ones. If you want a full list I can trawl FPAS contributions but frankly I'm not going to make the effort unless a case is opened. Only in death does duty end (talk) 23:41, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Sitush
I have no idea what has been going on at the Reference Desks, nor regarding TRM's block. However, if the main issue is incivility then please beware: there are a host of admins (and at least one arb) who periodically use words that some people (not me) find offensive, and that includes one who is currently the subject of case that is presently open. This could be the thin edge of a very thick wedge, and it isn't as it we've got that many active admins here already. Admins are human, too. - Sitush (talk) 12:14, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
@Onlyindeath says mine is a "common attitude" towards civility. Perhaps so, and maybe that is telling. All I am saying here is don't turn this case request into an issue merely about civility because if you do then you'll alienate an awful lot of people of one persuasion or the other and we'll be back at the interminable list of banned words situation etc. You'll end up deadlocked, as so often before. If FPaS has done anything wrong other than use a few nasty words then obviously there may be a case to answer on those points. FWIW, generally I find "troll" far more offensive, if it were directed at an editor in good standing, and I found the massively repetitive gratuitous usage of "fuck[ing]" by Ihardlythinkso involved in the linked ANI thread to be, well, if not offensive then certainly very irritating and hypocritical, yet I cannot recall anyone else expressing concern. - Sitush (talk) 13:25, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Mrjulesd
Although, in my opinion, the behaviour of FP@S is clearly sub-optimal, I feel that arbitration at this point is unneeded. The blocks of TRM and Cassianto, although dubious, were I believe in good faith, and rapidly overturned; so no great harm was intended or resulted. As for incivility, not enough community discussion has taken front on this; although I may be mistaken, I am not aware of any discussions taking place at WP:AN or WP:ANI.
Admins are human, and mistakes can be made, and I would hope FP@S will learn from this, particularly about over-keenness with the block button, and the lack of need for talk page access revocation. And civility, even when dealing with socks, should be increased. Any further concerns I hope will be dealt with at a community level, as it is perhaps unfair not to fully explore community based actions before heading to ArbCom, in cases such as these. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 14:00, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Comments by Newyorkbrad
At some point soon, the appropriate response to both Vote (X) for Change and the reference desk troll is for the Legal Department to track them down and send them cease-and-desist letters.
An early but still apt formulation of the civility principle was "editors are expected to be reasonably courteous to each other." This applies at least equally to administrators, and it applies even when administrators are talking with each other. To speak with some understatement, more than one admin mentioned in this request has not excelled recently at modeling civility and decorum. As has been discussed at great length on the arbitration pages and all over the project, civility cannot be legislated, and there is sometimes a place for strong and heated language, particularly in exasperating situations. But angry and heated words surely shouldn't become any editor's ordinary tone of discourse, and that has become too common.
I'd hope this case doesn't need to be accepted, because as has been pointed out, a weekslong arbitration case will merely magnify the disruption and animosity already created within our community by people who are not supposed to be editing at all. Compare Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Banning Policy. We should make every effort not to respond to trolls in a way that leaves the trolls laughing at all of us. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:10, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
As an addendum: I can agree with Fut.Perf. that immediate reversion of nasty edits by banned users is in order and that it is undesirable to call further attention to them. However, not every editor is au courant at any given moment with the antics of every banned troll and how edits by those people can be identified. (And it's a very good thing that most editors don't have to worry about that stuff, or actual encyclopedia-writing would suffer badly.) The knowledge that an edit is by a banned user does not come to an ordinary editor telepathically, and when such an editor is unsure what is going on, a patient (even if discreet) explanation should be provided, exasperating as the process may be. Now, what to do when the editor rejects the explanation, or when there is a disagreement as to whether the edit is by the banned user or not, is admittedly a tougher question. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:25, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Question/suggestion to all: Can't we come up with some sort of potted edit summary or message or similar to be used in these situations, which would not give undue attention to the trolling, but would give a good-faith editor unfamiliar with the situation an idea what is going on? ("Banned means banned", which I've seen sometimes used, is cryptic to newcomers, plus drags in the question of what we do in the more difficult cases in which a banned user surprises us by sneaking back online and contributing quality content. The banned-user edits at issue in this case were not of that variety.) Perhaps something along the lines (very rough draft) of "I have removed an edit to this page because it appears to have been made for purposes of harassment or disruption by a person who is banned from editing Wikipedia. Please do not restore this edit as doing so may tend to encourage the harassment or disruption. If you have any questions, please contact me on my talkpage." or similar? And make that doable with a one-click somehow? Or where more experienced editors are involved, an edit summary saying the same thing in fewer words?) Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:51, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- The edit summary field can't display that much text. How about, "Remove unhelpful edit by banned editor". If a banned editor wants to make helpful edits we can ignore them. Jehochman Talk 03:50, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Ivanvector
Regarding Newyorkbrad's comment directly above mine, it would be appropriate for ArbCom to officially endorse (by motion or whatever) proper legal response by the Foundation. This entire case is wholly a result of those banned editors' continuing disruption, and sanctioning individual administrators for desiring a strong (and frankly warranted) attitude when dealing with them is not going to solve anything (I would bold that more if I could). Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 15:19, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Folantin
I'm not involved but I've been watching this incident from a distance and I concur with Johnuniq, JzG and - especially - Newyorkbrad. The focus should be on dealing with the root cause, i.e. long-term IP abuse by a banned user, especially at the unprotected RefDesks (I note the irony that this very ArbCom page seems to have been indefinitely semi-protected since 2009). If civility is going to be part of the case then I think the scope should be widened; the behaviour of some of FPAS's accusers and opponents has been less than exemplary too. However, I'd agree with JzG that this flare-up was no more than a storm in a tea cup and a minor by-product of the underlying trolling problem. --Folantin (talk) 16:00, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Floq
FP@S has, I think, become too frustrated with people who don't share his knowledge about and/or concern with these two banned trolls. When people do something that inadvertently aids the trolling, the solution is not to bite their heads off, or revert them on their talk page with holier-than-thou language. That gets their back up, and then they end up blocked, and the the troll sits back and laughs and laughs. I unblocked Cassianto and TRM (in the vain hope that a case could be avoided), explained to them why FP@S was reverting them, and (although justifiably pissed off about being blocked) no one ever restored it. At the risk of sounding condescending, I'd recommend FP@S chill and let others deal with it for a while. I'm minded of MastCell's Rule #2 (substituting trolling for ignorance). He's rolled his sleeves up and dealt with bucketloads of trolling and POV pushing for years, which most of us are not willing to do. Let's see if maybe we can postpone the "inevitable", or maybe even avoid it. If every Arb said Decline, but FP@S needs to dial it down some, and remember not everyone who doesn't share his approach is an enemy of the encyclopedia, I think the problem might be solved.
Oh, and I strongly support NYB's thoughts. --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:20, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Vanamonde93
I don't frequently comment here, and I'm not directly involved with this situation; the case came to my notice thanks to peripheral involvement with some involved parties. FWIW, I believe this drama to be unproductive, because it is sucking up the energies of editors who are productive, and encouraging those few that are drama-mongers. FPAS' language was sub-optimal, and the blocks more so; I doubt anybody's denying that. So the Arbs should tell them so, and everybody can move on. Perhaps some advice to step back from this set of trolls would not go amiss. User:Darouet made the point at ANI that "I don't understand why the two solutions presented are either "FPAS should not be an admin" or "FPAS is justified in cursing out editors who make mistakes."" What Floquenbeam said above also makes a lot of sense. Vanamonde93 (talk) 16:57, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Samwalton9
I'd like to echo the sentiments above that expecting every user to be so familiar with LTAs that they can identify them from a single post is unreasonable in itself and getting angry and being hostile towards them when they say 'well I didn't know who that was' is definitely over the line. I don't feel like an arbitration case will get this situation anywhere productive, but I would like FP@S to tone it down a bit and stop to think about whether other editors have the same knowledge as them before they type. And while I hope it doesn't need to be said, of course reverting banned user's comments is appropriate. Sam Walton (talk) 16:59, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Robert McClenon
I strongly concur with User:Newyorkbrad that certain editors are sufficiently disruptive that the WMF needs to take legal action against them. Whether or not a full case should be opened by the ArbCom, the ArbCom should formally ask the WMF to take legal action. The ArbCom deals with cases that the community cannot deal with, but there are at least two editors identified above whom neither the community nor the ArbCom can deal with. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:11, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Resolute
I happened to catch the FPAS/The Rambling Man sub-plot as it happened, and from what I saw there, I would suggest that if you intend to accept this case, you should investigate the actions of both parties. In regards to FPAS, I can buy his argument that the blocks on TRM and Cassianto were not WP:INVOLVED, per se, but I do think they were incredibly poor, as evidenced by the rapid unblock by a third party. However, what preceded that block, with respect to TRM at least, was what I would consider a pretty blatant attempt at baiting. FPAS properly reverted the edit of a banned user on TPM's user talk page (noting the second time that it was from a banned editor) and the two proceeded to revert war over it. At the same time, TRM banned FPAS from his talk page while availing himself of FPAS's talk page for the express purpose of baiting FPAS and threatening to haul him before Arbcom. In the end, and unsurprisingly, TRM was all harassment and no action in this regard. It fell to someone else to file the RFArb. This, ultimately, was a situation where both parties should have behaved a hell of a lot smarter. Resolute 17:57, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Edit to add that NYB's suggestion has a great deal of merit. It is understandable that WMF wants to distance itself from the day to day actions of the community, but it is well beyond time now for legal to take steps to protect this project. Resolute 18:02, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by uninvolved Hammersoft
When the case gets accepted, the troll wins. Accept this case and you'll have to do something. You might even strip an administrator or two of their rights. The troll sits back and laughs at his great work, seeing the product of his efforts. Two administrators? All the way to ArbCom? What hysteria they must be feeling. Really ArbCom? Is this what you want to do? Certainly there are issues of civility here, but civility is a forgotten thing on this project. Apply the usual slap on the wrist and walk away. This is simple ArbCom; WP:DFTT. Since you likely can't avert your course now, you could at least close by motion; everyone be civil to each other moving forward, and have a nice day. On the other hand, you could have a full blown case, with reams of evidence, all concluding to one unavoidable conclusion; the troll got you. I'm guessing ArbCom will follow the latter path, never realizing what they've done. I hope I'm wrong. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:14, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by onlooker Mangoe
I'm basically in agreement with Floq. WP:DENY isn't license for collateral civility damage. Trolls win on their own terms, so I don't see how accepting this case matters in that wise; if this gets declined with a "tone it down" I'm fine, but I' hate to see established as a default the principle that WP:DENY trumps civility to editors who are not the troll in question. Mangoe (talk) 19:41, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Müdigkeit
This case would be about multiple possible problems. Continuous personal attacks by at least one adminstrator, the problem of persistent trolls, and the allegation of troll support by an adminstrator. The troll problem should not get a case.(If anything, contact legal) In that, the declining arbitrators are correct, in my opinion. WP:DENY, and all that. However, persistent personal attacks by an adminstrator should be dealt with, and as the arbcom is the only body in this wiki authorized to remove adminstrator rights for misconduct, and the case was not opened on a single case of a personal attack(bad enough) but on a supposed pattern of incivility! That alone should not be dismissed. We don't necessarily feed the trolls if we have a case about the behaviour of this admin, but even if... Ignored repeated personal attacks by an adminstrator set a very bad precedent. The tone on this project will certainly not improve if admins are allowed to do that. --Müdigkeit (talk) 21:58, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Darouet
StuRat mistakenly restored a vandal's comment, FP@S mistakenly swore at them. Both should apologize and move on. The biggest drama has come from other editors who've either encouraged FP@S not to apologize, or sought to sanction/desysop them for past grievances. We are the ones who made this environment ripe for a big fight. We can fix it by recognizing the good intentions on both sides, demanding professionalism, and moving on. -Darouet (talk) 22:19, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by IJBall
If you take this case, please look at the actions of both Admins involved. Also be aware that if you don't take the case, it'll be further evidence that Arbcom doesn't take WP:ADMINACCT seriously, and that Admins can get away with bloody murder in terms of conduct violations. I'd be very careful about this being the message that the "new" Arbcom wants to send on their first big case... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 23:45, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by JzG
Newyorkbrad's summary of the issue is excellent and I can't add anything to it other than to echo that this seems unripe for ArbCom.
That said, we do need, as a community, to find a way to document long term abuse without glorifying it. Most of this is now gone per WP:DENY. I would appreciate some ideas on how to do that. Guy (Help!) 00:02, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by RegentsPark
Though I've had my run ins with FPAS with my fair share of invective from him, I generally assume that if he is reverting a banned editor that's exactly what he is doing. FPAS is a reliable repository of institutional memory and we should respect that rather than saddle him/her with the hassle of a long drawn out arb case. It is also worth recognizing that this is a work environment, albeit an unpaid one. Politeness and requests for apologies go only so far in the real world of work and sometimes you just have to swallow your pride and move on. Otherwise our most useful editors and admins will be perpetually bogged down by 'inquiry commissions'. Where is the benefit in that? --regentspark (comment) 04:12, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by Ihardlythinkso
What does "conduct at a higher standard" for admins mean? How about (from policy WP:ADMINCOND):
- Administrators are expected to lead by example and to behave in a respectful, civil manner in their interactions with others.
- Administrators should strive to model appropriate standards of courtesy and civility to other editors and to one another.
- if an administrator finds that he or she cannot adhere to site policies and remain civil (even toward users exhibiting problematic behavior) while addressing a given issue, then the administrator should bring the issue to a noticeboard or refer it to another administrator to address, rather than potentially compound the problem by poor conduct.
To type "F-bomb"s on a keyboard, then press enter, are deliberate acts/choices/conscious decisions. (They are not "mistakes due to being human".) To be promoted at RfA to admin status carries with it conduct expectations per policy specially for admins. (Am I wrong to think of it as "minimum professional behavior" for admin?) If an admin cannot keep to same, they have no business continuing to be admin.
Sitush called me "hypocritical". He is too bright to unintentionally misread the simple point. I would be hypocritical if I used "F-bomb"s like FPAS, and I were admin. I am not admin. I would be hypocritical if I used "F-bomb"s like FPAS and FPAS were not admin. But FPAS is admin. My protest re FPAS is re "conduct at a higher standard". Not re civility in general. (I made that clear to Sitush at his Talk, yet he still chose to maintain the misread here at Arb. [How desperate is that? Who is he protecting and why?])
HighInBC responded on my Talk: "There is no rule that says admins or anyone else cannot use naughty words." If using non-humorous "F-bomb"s are not implicitly prohibited by the civility expectations described at WP:ADMINCOND, then I'll eat my shirt in an hour without ketchup. HighInBC questioned at ANI whether or not the incivilities from FPAS were "part of a larger pattern". I asked HighInBC if he had read the wlink'd FPAS RfC from 2008, and how much more of a long-term pattern was he looking for? No response. Even after he went to my Talk to "continue the discussion" and I informed him more than once he hadn't replied to my Q. HighInBC also called me "hypocritical" and accused of "sending mixed messages". Apparently he has the same reading difficulty as Sitush above? Again, it is a simple point. [Again, how desperate. Again, who and why.])
IHTS (talk) 07:43, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by {Non-party}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information.
Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Future Perfect at Sunrise: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter <3/3/0/1>
Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse/other)
- Accept I think there is something here for us to look at --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 13:31, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Accept. The other claims of misconduct aside, the allegation that administrators are enabling harassment by a banned user—unintentionally or otherwise—is deeply concerning and warrants further investigation. Kirill Lokshin (talk) 15:13, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Accept. Gamaliel (talk) 17:38, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Decline. Keilana (talk) 18:35, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Decline but we do need to deal with these trolls. I agree that we should see if the WMF can do anything. I might accept a case request that focussed only on the troll problem, but that's not what this request is about. Ok, it would be a good idea if FPS toned it down a notch, but he's also been doing a lot of the heavy lifting and should be thanked for that. Hammersoft is right, if we accept this, the troll wins. Doug Weller talk 20:10, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- Decline. This is like an all-you-can-eat troll buffet. If we get ourselves so tied up in knots about responding to trolls that we need arbcom to untangle the mess, isn't that just putting a big collective "Kick Me" sign on our backs? I do think it would be good if FPaS took a step back from dealing with these particularly frustrating trolls, and if others treated unsolicited talk-page rants about third parties with due caution, especially by not reinstating reverted potentially-disruptive material without discussion. Meanwhile, as for the troll problem, we can explore legal options for particularly egregious cases, but it would also be good for the community to work out a more effective way of sharing knowledge about long-term abuse without unduly publicizing the issue. Opabinia regalis (talk) 20:48, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- This incident is hardly worth a month of everyone's time to get to the result that everyone needs to cool it down some. But as there are some people hinting at it, I'm going to ask for direct evidence (and not handwaves towards it): Is there an ongoing issue? Is there some sort of definable pattern here of misconduct to address rather than one sorry incident in which (other than Floquenbeam) everyone made a mess of? Courcelles (talk) 22:33, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Initiated by Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) at 22:38, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Involved parties
- Chatul (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), filing party
- Tom94022 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
- Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
- [diff of notification Tom94022]
- Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried
- Talk:Count key data
- User talk:Chatul/Sandbox/Count key data#Alternative Construction
- Mediation refused
- Does not meet criteria for DRN
- User:Erpert removed a request for third party opinion because there were too many issues.
Statement by Chatul
There is a fundamental issue as to whether the Count key data article should cover history and technical details, and numerous secondary issues revolving around the definitions of technical terms. The discussions in the talk pages show a complete lack of communication between the parties, despite numerous efforts.
Statement by Tom94022
Statement by Beyond My Ken
Just to put on my Captain Obvious cap for a moment, this appears to be a content dispute with no allegations of behavioral issues aside from "lack of communication", so it should therefore be declined, as settling content disagreements per se is not within the Committee's remit. BMK (talk) 04:45, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by uninvolved Softlavender
@Chatul: ArbCom doesn't handle content disputes, so this will not be accepted as a case. You are fortunate that your co-editor, Tom94022, seems to be continuing to discuss matters in detail with you on the article's talk page. Often such extensive and wide-ranging subjects will take time, but there is no deadline on Wikipedia. To facilitate your discussions, you may want to: (1) Read all the options on WP:DR (not just some, read the whole thing slowly and carefully, clicking on all the links in addition, but stopping at "Resolving user conduct disputes", since this is not a conduct issue). A couple of the items on there have been tried, but not all, and the ones that have been tried have been attempted in a way that was unfocused and too overwhelming. (2) Post a neutral query on on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Computing inviting other editors to share their opinions. (3) Take every issue separately, one at a time, rather than trying to achieve consensus on several issues at once. Make a separate thread for every issue or sub-issue. (4) If things bog down, then subdivide the issues at hand into more distinct separate issues. The main problem here seems to be that there are too many issues being addressed at at once. Step back and focus on one single issue or question at a time, using separate, orderly threads. Hope that helps. Softlavender (talk) 07:05, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
Statement by {Non-party}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should address why or why not the Committee should accept the case request or provide additional information.
Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse/other)