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::Per my comments in #2 above, I think this is a good remedy, but only partially addresses the totality of the problem. My fear is that Collect might extend problematic discussions to user talk pages, AE, ARCA or other fora where the limitation doesn't apply. There's quite a bit of forum shopping evidence to support such a concern. - [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 19:05, 11 April 2015 (UTC) |
::Per my comments in #2 above, I think this is a good remedy, but only partially addresses the totality of the problem. My fear is that Collect might extend problematic discussions to user talk pages, AE, ARCA or other fora where the limitation doesn't apply. There's quite a bit of forum shopping evidence to support such a concern. - [[user: MrX|Mr]][[user talk:MrX|X]] 19:05, 11 April 2015 (UTC) |
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::I don't see Collect as doing anymore forum shopping than some of his adversaries. But limiting threaded discussions essentially means |
::I don't see Collect as doing anymore forum shopping than some of his adversaries. But limiting threaded discussions essentially means his adversaries could out shout Collect, who has already self proclaimed he's been harassed of BLPs anyway.--[[User:MONGO|MONGO]] 20:15, 11 April 2015 (UTC) |
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:'''Comment by others:''' |
:'''Comment by others:''' |
Revision as of 20:20, 11 April 2015
Case clerk: TBD Drafting arbitrator: TBD
Wikipedia Arbitration |
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Track related changes |
Purpose of the workshop: The case Workshop exists so that parties to the case, other interested members of the community, and members of the Arbitration Committee can post possible components of the final decision for review and comment by others. Components proposed here may be general principles of site policy and procedure, findings of fact about the dispute, remedies to resolve the dispute, and arrangements for remedy enforcement. These are the four types of proposals that can be included in committee final decisions. There are also sections for analysis of /Evidence, and for general discussion of the case. Any user may edit this workshop page; please sign all posts and proposals. Arbitrators will place components they wish to propose be adopted into the final decision on the /Proposed decision page. Only Arbitrators and clerks may edit that page, for voting, clarification as well as implementation purposes.
Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at fair, well-informed decisions. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being unnecessarily rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator or clerk, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Behavior during a case may be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.
Motions and requests by the parties
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Proposed temporary injunctions
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Questions to the parties
- Arbitrators may ask questions of the parties in this section.
Proposed final decision
Proposals by User:MrX
Proposed principles
Respect and cooperation
1) Editors should treat each other with respect and civility, even when they disagree. Edit warring, disrupting the project to illustrate a point, and failure to act in good faith are detrimental to fostering a collaborative environment where everyone wins by fulfilling our goal of building a free, online encyclopedia of all knowledge.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Especially Pokemon and obscure internet bands. But yes, standard. -- Euryalus (talk) 15:46, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- Concur - These are the minimum standards of basic socialization. The goal of building the encyclopedia is paramount, if it is not why is an editor here? The only way for the project to be successful is to maintain a healthy working environment. Poor conflict management can only harm that environment and voluntary conflict resolution will fail without a baseline of respect. Jbh (talk) 00:48, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- Concur - . Buster Seven Talk 05:50, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
Almost everything is negotiable
2) Collaboration and consensus seeking are the soil in which Wikipedia thrives. There are no few firm rules and no single users are appointed to enforce them. The policies and guidelines of the project are not carved in stone, and their content and interpretation can evolve.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- There are some fairly firm rules. What findings do you see flowing from this proposed principle? -- Euryalus (talk) 14:58, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- "rules" is an ambiguous term. There are some policies whose fundamental content is so securely upheld by the community (and in some cases mandated by the WMF) that the essence of the policies is for all practical purposes unchangeable. The possibility of exemption that would violate the fundamentals of some policies is in practice impossible; the variation from some of the specific interpretations or details can in some cases be another matter. DGG ( talk ) 00:27, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- @Euryalus: Yes, there are some fairly firm rules. The principle here is the red pillar, which I find to be instructive. It relates directly to this single editor's novel interpretation of the WP:BLP policy which far exceeds community standards in my estimation. - MrX 15:48, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- @MrX: I understand the sentiment here and the 'red pillar' but I worry about two phrases
Everything is negotiable
andno firm rules
. Both of these seem to open up potential for a huge amount of wikilawyering and stonewalling by those who want to not only argue about how a "rule" is applied but about the rule itself. This concept and IAR gives Wikipedia's "rules" elasticity and an ability to handle things no one thought of while still providing a common framework to work in. Elasticity is good but malleability is bad. I think those two phrases are a bit too close to the malleable end of the continuum for my comfort. Jbh (talk) 01:01, 8 April 2015 (UTC)- "Everything is negotiable" is the converse to Collect's oft-repeated "WP:BLP is not negotiable" and "less-often-repeated "WP:NPOV is not negotiable". I believe that Jimbo once stated that NPOV is non-negotiable (I can't find it now), but I assume that was meant in the abstract and not as a dictum. It's antithetical to the project's design to rigidly proclaim its policies unalterable. Reasonable people can agree on what it means to not to have firm rules (bold, not reckless), but the important nugget in this proposed principle, is that a single editor should not be able to appoint themself as arbiter of how everyone else should interprets and follows a policy. - MrX 01:40, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- @DGG: Rules in this context refer to policies and guidelines of the project, and specifically exclude WMF Terms, conditions and policies since those are outside of the control of the community and Arbcom. I agree that not every detail of every policy is negotiable, for example, we would not allow substantial copyrighted material to be kept in articles unless it met the legal requirements of fair use. However, each policy as a whole is not formulaic. They have to be interpreted and discussed among editors. Application of policy should flow from collaboration and consensus. I have made some tweaks to the wording of this proposed principle to try to capture that intent.- MrX 12:58, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- that we have a BLP and copyright policy is mandated by the foundation, and our policies must incorporate what they prescribe within the variation they authorize.See m:Terms_of_Use the site terms of use section 11 "the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees releases official policies from time to time. Some of these policies may be mandatory for a particular Project or Project edition, and, when they are, you agree to abide by them as applicable." This specifically links to the m:Resolution:Biographies of living people BLP policy, among others. But I do not think any doubt about this particular point will be relevant in the case at hand, where we will be applying the BLP policies as we have them on enWP. It would only be relevant if someone were to assert that our policies did not fulfill the vey general requirements of the TOU, and I can so no reason that this would be asserted in this case. DGG ( talk ) 16:17, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- As I recall, the bulk of WP:BLP actually is non-negotiable. And in particular, groups of like-minded partisans are not supposed to team up to flout BLP to make a living person look bad. Especially not a politician during election season. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 12:36, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- This is true with respect to the principles. Their application Involves judgement and discretion, and is subject to guidelines and exceptions under IAR, and the details of the application of this policy are discussed extensively at various pages and frequently disputed. DGG ( talk ) 16:17, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- As I recall, the bulk of WP:BLP actually is non-negotiable. And in particular, groups of like-minded partisans are not supposed to team up to flout BLP to make a living person look bad. Especially not a politician during election season. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 12:36, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- "Five pillars" are not negotiable. In particular, WP:NPOV is more important than WP:Consensus. My very best wishes (talk) 03:40, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
WP:BLP must not be abused to win disputes is not a weapon of first resort
3) WP:BLP is a policy that guides us to carefully edit where real people's lives are concerned. It is not a license to automatically reject content unfavorable to the certain subjects, nor an excuse to edit war or advance non-consensus interpretation of the policy. BLP articles must cite reliable, authoritative sources, especially when the subject matter is controversial. Editors' personal experiences, interpretations, or opinions are not appropriate for inclusion.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Concur - Although I also do not like the title. Maybe something like Don't cry BLP or really anything that does not allude to battle. This principle is useful at stages of conflict well before a subject turns into a BATTLEGROUND. Implicitly accusing someone of BATTLEGROUND when citing the principle may well escalate tension rather than encourage productive debate. Jbh (talk) 21:03, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- Agree with Newyorkbrad. Suggest: "BLP is not a license to override NPOV". - Cwobeel (talk) 21:04, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- I'm open to changing the heading, but I want to capture the idea that the policy has been used abusively. I don't think it's always about NPOV; sometimes is just seems to be about WP:WINNING.- MrX 21:16, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- @MrX: I definitely agree with what you are trying for here. Jbh (talk) 01:07, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- I've attempted to tone down the heading.- MrX 13:20, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- @MrX: Perhaps the last sentence could be more concisely worded along the lines of:
- "BLP articles must cite reliable, authoritative sources, especially when the subject matter is controversial. Editors' personal opinions and the like are not appropriate for inclusion".
- --Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 19:50, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Ubikwit: I met you part way.- MrX 20:24, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- I've attempted to tone down the heading.- MrX 13:20, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- @MrX: I definitely agree with what you are trying for here. Jbh (talk) 01:07, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- I'm open to changing the heading, but I want to capture the idea that the policy has been used abusively. I don't think it's always about NPOV; sometimes is just seems to be about WP:WINNING.- MrX 21:16, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- BLP should be defended in as exhaustive a means as necessary to eliminate advocacy for overly supportive or overly negative information.--MONGO 16:31, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- I like the text a lot more than the heading. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:29, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
Comment by others is for comment on draft proposals, not for threaded exchanges of incivility. Robert McClenon (talk) 12:36, 9 April 2015 (UTC) |
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Trust and civility
4) Editors are expected to be open and forthcoming in content disputes. Insufficient explanations for edits or refusal to engage productively in discussion can be perceived as uncivil. Dishonesty, in word and deed, is corrosive to the project.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Concur - Mendacity is the death of collaboration. Jbh (talk) 22:16, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- Concur, and note that certain forms of "refusal to engage productively in discussion" violate WP:TALK.
The talk page is also the place to ask about another editor's changes. If someone queries one of your edits, make sure you reply with a full, helpful rationale.
- --Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 14:49, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- MrX, I may be missing your point but I do not see significant evidence that anyone in the case has a history of being untrustworthy. Also, not everyone is expected to discuss every edit they make, even in controversial areas. Collect seems to have engaged more significantly in discussions than most any other editor does. Civility in discussions when an editor is pushing a point does not remove the fact that they may be POV pushing.--MONGO 16:36, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- @MONGO: With respect, I think you do understand my point, but obviously the evidence leads us to very different conclusions. - MrX 18:11, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- Again: is this something that Collect is supposed to have done, specifically whilst other editors were in the process of not doing it? Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 12:41, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Threaded discussion not permitted. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:55, 10 April 2015 (UTC) |
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Proposed findings of fact
Edit warring
1) Collect has a history unabated edit warring. has edit warred at several articles in the past 13 months. His block log includes evidence of edit warring in 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2014, and 2015.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- This proposal is not supported by the evidence. -- Euryalus (talk) 15:26, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- @MrX:Thanks, that was what I was referring to. There's certainly some edit-warring at issue here, but there are differing opinions as to why. Which is, essentially, the key to the case. -- Euryalus (talk) 15:43, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- This proposal is not supported by the evidence. -- Euryalus (talk) 15:26, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- @Euryalus: I don't know if you mean that Collect hasn't edit warred, but I assume that you dispute that it is "unabated" so I've revised my statement.- MrX 15:38, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- Concur - Profiling may be prejudicial in RL, but a Users editorial history is a valid barometer of who he is and how he chooses to behave. . Buster Seven Talk 05:47, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Factchecker atyourservice:Please be careful asserting that "the accusers" in this case have done this or that. We're far from a unified/organized group - some of us have never been involved in "serious edit warring," and have no particular interest in liberal-vs-conservative political disputes. You also haven't presented any actual evidence to back up your suggestion that any of the accusers have been involved in "base partisan stonewalling," etc. Fyddlestix (talk) 16:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- Evidence is closed. I've already gone out on a limb by posting a previously undiscussed diff here on the Workshop page. That was a really important diff to put forth IMO, but I don't plan on testing Arb patience any further. And please understand that my accusations were not meant to apply to every single party other than Collect. I certainly didn't have you in mind when I said those things; we've never met AFAIK. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 18:28, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
This doesn't seem to be relevant, and has certainly strayed. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 15:31, 8 April 2015 (UTC) |
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Sorry, but if the goal of this proceeding is to understand the origin of these edit wars, why is evidence of serious edit-warring problems by the accusers not relevant? Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 15:59, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Gaming the system
2) Collect has a history of gaming the system in order to prevail in disputes. He has engaged repeatedly in making false claims, wikilawyering, filibustering, forum shopping, fallacious arguments, canvassing, using Wikipedia to make a point, and abuse of process. This is most evident in his attempt to force an untoward interpretation of the WP:BLP policy and impose his own novel interpretation of that policy which far exceeds community standards. He wrongly elevates himself as the stalwart of WP:BLP.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- @Buster7: This (the newbie fear claim) is not well supported in the evidence. -- Euryalus (talk) 07:48, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Euryalus:Perhaps it's not specifically named but it is inferred. And it is human nature to not want to go up against someone that knows ALL the rules and regulations and seems to be the Site Expert on everything BLP, or at least that is the projection. Plus, I'm not really thinking of Newbies. Its more semi-established editors that have a sense about the place and that sense tells them not to mess with senior editors that project power and knowledge, even if its a smokescreen. But I'll edit my concur accordingly. The effect that an editor such as Collect has on the actions (or non-actions) of other editors can not be measured but it also should not be minimized as non-existent. . Buster Seven Talk 10:52, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Buster7: This (the newbie fear claim) is not well supported in the evidence. -- Euryalus (talk) 07:48, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- Much could be said about those that fail to grasp the concept of do no harm. When an editor spends their time only concerned with adding negative information to a BLP page then they should be called on it. While balance is crucial and we should not whitewash any BLP subject, extraordinary claims demand exemplary evidence.--MONGO 20:59, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
Not helpful. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 15:16, 8 April 2015 (UTC) |
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- (edit conflict)There is no requirement to do no harm in BLP. Accurately documenting what multiple high quality RS say about a person may indeed cause them distress or harm. As you say, it is not Wikipedia's place to whitewash the subject nor is it our place to protect people from their significant public actions. WP:BLP strikes a balance between documenting a person's public actions and protecting their private life and do no harm is not the balancing test used. Exemplary evidence - yes. Pedantic sophistry - a most emphatic no. Jbh (talk) 21:20, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- I would split this into several parts, to make it easier to decide what applies and what does not. - Cwobeel (talk) 21:15, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- Concur - that Collect games the system in many ways.
Inexperienced editors are wrongly influenced by his air of being the last word on BLP rule interpretation and the manner in which he enforces that interpretation. They fear being a combatant against him.Buster Seven Talk 05:39, 8 April 2015 (UTC) - Strongly concur--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 05:22, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- The policy is, in substance, to do no unfair harm, no unnecessary harm, no unencyclopedic harm. And above all, no harm for the very sake of harming. This includes the policies against untoward invasions of the privacy of borderline-notable people, and of unduly weighting minor aspects of their lives. It doesn't, of course, and to take an admittedly exaggerated example, mean that an article on a convicted mass murderer must omit the murders and focus on his or her kindness to puppies. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:35, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- One of the accusers here has been warned by an admin at least once for attempting to use admin sanction processes to "win" a content dispute. It's hard to avoid the impression that this is simply an attempt to exclude Collect from the editing process so he can no longer make valid edits which the accusers find disagreeable. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 13:00, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- The policy is, in substance, to do no unfair harm, no unnecessary harm, no unencyclopedic harm. And above all, no harm for the very sake of harming. This includes the policies against untoward invasions of the privacy of borderline-notable people, and of unduly weighting minor aspects of their lives. It doesn't, of course, and to take an admittedly exaggerated example, mean that an article on a convicted mass murderer must omit the murders and focus on his or her kindness to puppies. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:35, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Subverting NPOV
3) Collect has subverted the core content policy WP:NPOV at multiple articles, by tactically exhausting the patience of other editors by removing sources, gratuitously adding UNDUE material, filibustering, forum shopping, and stonewalling.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Concur, and would add "gratuitously adding UNDUE material" to the list of tactics.--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 14:56, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Collect has been a stalwart defender of the undue weight clause of NPOV so I do not agree with this finding.--MONGO 16:26, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Concur - Editors working together does not require complete agreement but it does require respectful behavior. . Buster Seven Talk 19:14, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
Proposed remedies
Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.
Collect (site-ban)
1) Collect is site-banned from the English Language Wikipedia for a period of one year.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- After witnessing Collect's wanton refusal to acknowledge any culpability and the his attempts to inappropriately rally supporters, I considered an indefinite site ban. However, in the spirit of not throwing the baby out with the bath water, I think a limited break might be best. Hopefully Collect would return with a fresh perspective and engage in collaboration to improve the encyclopedia.- MrX 14:00, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Strongly oppose as too draconian.--MONGO 14:33, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- This is a second choice for me. After reading through the evidence and the Arbcom request from 2009 I see that this behavior has been long term. Collect has had years to mature as an editor and to modify his behavior based upon community input. That this behavior has continued after he was topic banned in the Tea Party case says a lot to me. The quotes I posted under the topic ban proposal and the one I posted in the 1RR proposal lead me to the belief a site ban is needed rather than a BLP topic ban or 1RR. Because his behavior has continued unabated (And possibly worsened recently, but people more familiar with him are in a better position to judge that than I.) I do not believe he should be allowed back without convincing Arbcom that he is capable of contributing to Wikipedia without behaving in ways found problematic in this case. Jbh (talk) 20:34, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
Collect (topic-ban)
2) Collect is indefinitely prohibited from making any edit about, and from editing any page relating to, biographies of living persons, broadly construed.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- This addresses the selective application of BLP, BLP violations, subverting NPOV on BLP articles (especially with respect to WP:PUBLICFIGURE), and attempting to force an untoward interpretation of the WP:BLP which far exceeds community standards.- MrX 14:00, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Strongly oppose any efforts to impose an indefinite remedy against Collect. Definitely view Collects hardline stance on biographies to be a necessity for determining a pragmatic balance.--MONGO 14:36, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- I do not think this will work see my reasoning in the site-ban proposal. Below is a quote from my evidence from Collect on this.
"If I can not make a difference on BLPs where my harassers and complainants are still actively making edits which are questionable under Wikipedia non-negotiable policies - what the hell can I do? Really? Cheers"
[3]
- Overall I think the problem will just pop up in another topic area. This huge diff [4] from my evidence illustrates Collect exhibiting the same problematic behaviors dealing with WP:FRINGE. Jbh (talk) 20:44, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- I think that American politics should be included in the scope of the topic ban proposal.--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 07:23, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
Collect (1RR)
3) Collect is indefinitely limited to one revert in any article per 24 hour period, excepting unambiguous vandalism.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- This addresses the history of edit warring and apparent inability to realize that it is disruptive to the project.- MrX 14:00, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Any article or just BLPs? I don't think there is evidence to support a 1RR in all articles. - Cwobeel (talk) 14:27, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- I would support this if altered to a one-year remedy.--MONGO 14:37, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Cwobeel: All articles. Political activities of the Koch brothers, Breitbart, Mass killings under Communist regimes and Drudge Report are not biographies.- MrX 16:27, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Quoted from my evidence section.
- Cwobeel -
"A 1RR on political BLPs will allow you to revert, explain your reversion and engage in talk."
[5] - Collect -
"Where there is a BLP violation - letting it remain is actually contrary to any common sense. I think you just learned exactly how some others work to promote what they "know" to be the "truth" on BLPs."
[6]
- Cwobeel -
- I see this remedy leading to nothing but more problems. Jbh (talk) 19:48, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- You are probably right, given his reply. - Cwobeel (talk) 19:51, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- This addresses the history of edit warring and apparent inability to realize that it is disruptive to the project.- MrX 14:00, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
Collect (warned)
4) Collect is warned that continuing to game the system may lead to further sanctions, up to and including a ban from the project.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- The idea here would be that a one year ban would be deterrent, and that recidivism of the previous conduct would result in escalating sanctions.- MrX 14:00, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- This will do nothing but punt the issue down the road. Collect has had, from what I have read, years to adjust his behavior based on community feedback. Jbh (talk) 19:50, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Disagree with this remedy.--MONGO 23:42, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
Collect (prohibited)
5) Collect is indefinitely prohibited from using his user page, user talk page, or user sub-pages post cryptic comments to cast aspersions, criticisms of people to directly or obliquely criticize users or groups of people, or any content that does not clearly benefit the goal of collaborative editing users, or to host material not directly related to content improvement.- MrX 18:01, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- I understand the intent here, but I think that the phrases "crytpic comments" and "any content that does not clearly benefit the goal of collaborative editing" would be better substituted for ones that are less likely to be wiki-lawyered over. Thryduulf (talk) 14:40, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- I would change this to strongly advised and add caveat that further issues may lead to sanctions.--MONGO 14:39, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Concur, and would suggest re-wording to focus on the casting of aspersions by alluding to other editors or their comments in a derisive manner, in a manner such as to suggest that they are violating policy, etc.
- --Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 15:04, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- @MONGO: Strongly advised is too weak; Collect doesn't really take advice all that well. @Thryduulf: I see your point. I will try to adjust the wording. @Ubikwit: Good advice.- MrX 18:01, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Depends on who is giving the advice... I doubt he would listen to either of us, but an admonishment from arbcom would be a different matter.--MONGO 18:21, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Emphatic Concur - My personal requests have gone unanswered. Perhaps ArbCom can advocate for the removal of disharmonious quotes and diffs about other editors.. Buster Seven Talk 18:40, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
Factchecker atyourservice (warned)
6) Factchecker atyourservice is reminded that incivility and unnecessary antagonism do not improve the editing environment, and further instances of either will likely result in serious sanctions.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Whether or not this remedy is adopted, FCAYS' conduct during this case will be considered by the drafting arbitrators. Thryduulf (talk) 18:42, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- This addresses the inappropriate conduct on the workshop page, the evidence talk page, and elsewhere on the project for which they have been previously warned and sanctioned.- MrX 14:00, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Not supported by the evidence that this remedy is necessary.--MONGO 14:40, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Factchecker atyourservice: Comments in which you "express grave doubts about that party's judgment" are personal attacks, especially when that editor's judgement has otherwise held up to scrutiny. Allow me to clarify with diffs:
- Asking to be spoon fed evidence that has already been presented, often in multiple forms: [7][8][9]
- Irrational statements lacking evidence:[10]
- (Ironic) appeals to hypocrisy:[11][12][13][14][15]
- Posting evidence after the evidence phase has closed and then complaining because it was hatted:[16]
- Personal attacks lacking evidence:[17][18][19]
- Attempting to politicize the case:[20]
- Removing other editor's talk page comments:[21][22]
- (Apparently) assuming the role of Collect's lawyer and demanding special treatment:[23][24][25][26]
- Inflammatory remarks.[27][28]
- Pettifoggery:[29]
- If you were the subject of this case, perhaps some latitude should be afforded for your conduct, but since you're not and this is the same type of behavior that I observed at Shooting of Michael Brown[30][31] and warned you about[32], I thought it reasonable to propose this remedy.- MrX 17:16, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Factchecker atyourservice: Comments in which you "express grave doubts about that party's judgment" are personal attacks, especially when that editor's judgement has otherwise held up to scrutiny. Allow me to clarify with diffs:
Unproductive back-and-forth. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:08, 10 April 2015 (UTC) |
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Proposals by User:Buster7
Proposed principles
Talk page etiquette
1) While collaboration is the expected norm for editors, there are admittedly times when editors will not agree. Disagreements do not permit the on-going display of out-of-context dialogue and unexplainable diffs on their talk pages or in their user space.
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- @Factchecker atyourservice: Agree that it would have been better for the comment never to have been made. Suggest it would also have been better for it not to have been hosted in user space for years afterward as a personal criticism of another editor. Bluntly, keeping this posted in Collect's talkpage serves no useful purpose, and it should now be removed. This is even more the case given how old it is.
- As a more general comment, subject to other views I don't see this as needing its own principle. Something more general on collegial editing or harassment would cover this. Alternatively the comment could simply be removed from the talkpage and we could stop discussing it at all. -- Euryalus (talk) 00:15, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Factchecker atyourservice: Not sure where essays have come into this, I'm talking about the header in Collect's usertalk. -- Euryalus (talk) 12:55, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
- As a more general comment, subject to other views I don't see this as needing its own principle. Something more general on collegial editing or harassment would cover this. Alternatively the comment could simply be removed from the talkpage and we could stop discussing it at all. -- Euryalus (talk) 00:15, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- Concur. Talking to oneself about the perceived shortcomings of others is best done in private, if at all. Legitimate concerns should be handled through good faith discussion or dispute resolution.- MrX 16:56, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- Concur - Cwobeel (talk) 21:16, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- Concur - I suggest generalizing it a bit as '...diffs on their talk pages or their user space.' or words to that effect. "talk page lead is too specific in my opinion. Jbh (talk) 22:05, 7 April 2015 (UTC) Jbh (talk) 01:16, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Factchecker atyourservice:. I was a brand new novice editor in 2008 that thought Wikipedia was a safe and wonderful place. I was dumb-founded when I read the essay Collect/z at its very beginning first page when it was raw and attacking. I didn't know what to do. I felt the other editors at the Sarah Palin article should know that one among us was advocating underhanded and devious tactics. I went to Less Heard van U and another editor whose name I forgot( but I can find if necessary) and I came to you...for advice. I didn't even know about sanctions and removing an editor and all that stuff. I was a newbie with innocent and clean motives. I never suspected that an editor would be so bold as to lay out a plan to subvert other editors. The Sam Spade comment was kind of a joke...to get you to like me and to check out what I had found about a fellow editor. Here was this big wide World Of Wikipedia...and I had uncovered a secret essay. Bottom line...I didn't know what to do or who to tell. Collect shouldn't have been suspicious. He had been caught writing an essay about deception and actions with bad intent. And he didn't like it so he turned the tables and made me out to be the bad guy. And he has continued his make believe story for all these many years. In todays parlance, Collect is dead to me. I don't care about Collect. I care about Wikipedia and, to a lesser degree, how I am portrayed in the Wikipedia Community. . Buster Seven Talk 04:31, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
- Alternatively the comment could simply be removed from the talkpage and we could stop discussing it at all. Yes. I could accept that solution and rescind my proposal. . Buster Seven Talk 07:44, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
My main concern with this issue is that it indicates to me an attitude of feeling untouchable on the part of Collect. Any other editor would have been required to remove that material as a violation of WP:POLEMIC, at ANI if need be, years ago.Moved - placed in wrong section.Jbh (talk) 11:42, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
- In Collect's defense I think it is worth noting that at least some of the offending talk/userpage material — I believe Buster7 would agree it's the most crucial bit from his perspective, at least — is simply a copy of a comment previously made by Buster in which he appeared to state he was biding his time and laying groundwork for a future effort to have Collect sanctioned or removed from Wikipedia. I think we can all agree that if we discovered a similar comment about ourselves, we'd be alarmed and would likely feel suspicious towards that other editor, especially if related content disputes showed no sign of abating. In other words, Collect had reason to be suspicious about that comment, and so long as any bitter disagreements remained between the two of them, it's not entirely clear that Buster7 had any right to demand that Collect stop displaying the quote on his userpage, although obviously the two of them would be better friends if the comment had never been made & reposted. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 13:56, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Threaded discussion has been prohibited in these subsections. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:24, 11 April 2015 (UTC) |
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- Seriously, I do not see how essays by Collect are any different from something like Wikipedia:Assume bad faith. If you do not like his "humor" and advice, then do not read it and do not follow it. There are no accusations about specific editors and even about specific subject areas in his essay. My very best wishes (talk) 14:24, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
Proposed findings of fact
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Proposed remedies
Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.
Casting aspersions
2) Insulting other editors and name calling is possible on Wikipedia talk pages. Some editors consider one editor claiming another editor is a Sockpuppet to be serious. Since Collect has falsely accused numerous editors of being sockpuppets over the years, he should now be required to apologize to those he slandered admit his mistaken claims.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Not a fan. Mildly, the Committee cannot require people to admit things. Also, as with other stages of dispute resolution, remedies need to address the conduct identified in the Findings and work to prevent that conduct recurring. An unwilling or forced admission of wrongdoing is unlikely to achieve these ends. Further, sockpuppet allegations are actually quite common, and the majority are either unfounded or impossible to prove. If the intent of the proposal is to highlight battleground conduct or personal attacks, the remedy (or Finding) should reflect that more directly than this one does.- Euryalus (talk) 08:13, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
- It is usually unwise to insist upon apologies. It favors hypocrisy and does not solve fundamental differences. DGG ( talk ) 18:06, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- The 'worst' insult probably varies from editor to editor. An accusation of being a SOCK that is not backed up can already be pursued as harassment. Having more admins who are prepared to step in and nip the early stages of harassment in the bud is, I believe, critical to the ongoing health of Wikipedia since we seem to fail miserably at that, particularly with "established editors" and "good content creators".
The second part of this principle is more a remedy but I would not support it as that. Forced apologies are never sincere and, in my opinion, are more a social shaming ritual. There are times/places where such things are appropriate and necessary but I do not think formal dispute resolution on Wikipedia is one of those. Jbh (talk) 12:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- The 'worst' insult probably varies from editor to editor. An accusation of being a SOCK that is not backed up can already be pursued as harassment. Having more admins who are prepared to step in and nip the early stages of harassment in the bud is, I believe, critical to the ongoing health of Wikipedia since we seem to fail miserably at that, particularly with "established editors" and "good content creators".
- I agree with the spirit of this, but I don't think a principle can include a requirement for a confession. Accusations of sockpuppetry should be accompanied by some sort of evidence, or at least a willingness to present evidence if requested. Such accusations should not be made lightly.- MrX 21:01, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- Changed "...be required to apologize to those he slandered." to now read "admit his mistake".
- Collect was the subject of a frivolous SPI report just recently, and that's worse than suggesting someone might/could be a sockpuppet.--MONGO 06:35, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with the spirit of this, but I don't think a principle can include a requirement for a confession. Accusations of sockpuppetry should be accompanied by some sort of evidence, or at least a willingness to present evidence if requested. Such accusations should not be made lightly.- MrX 21:01, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
Long term degradation of a contemporary
2) Collect is required to remove the following from his talk page;
I find it interesting that an editor who avers he is "collegial" would ever have posted anything remotely like:
- I have some derogatory and self-created (by him) information that I would like to reveal regarding ***. But, I would like to create a situation where most of the editors that have worked to formulate a quality article are present. Unless *** pushes too much, I will probably wait till closer to the election. (I feel like Sam Spade/Private Detective).
- And then, lets just go back to being fellow editors with an extreme dislike for an editor whose name begins with a C and ends in a T.
Sound "collegial to you? [33] shows his ideal BLP edit.
since it is a form of constant harassment and degradation of another editor. . Buster Seven Talk 05:57, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- @Buster7: To save me searching page histories, have you directly asked him to remove it from his talkpage? -- Euryalus (talk) 14:30, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- @Euryalus: Yes, twice as I remember. Ive been searching for the diffs. I will find them before the workshop closes. Its been there a few years. . Buster Seven Talk 04:08, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
- Euryalus I ask him to remove it here. After that, I try to clarify where it came from and when by referring to User:Factcheckers page thread titled Strangers in a Strange Land which hints at my shock. He banned me from his page. . Buster Seven Talk 05:43, 11 April 2015 (UTC) I know there is a time after that but I cannot find it at this late hour, I will continue to search. . Buster Seven Talk 06:33, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
- My main concern with this issue is that it indicates to me an attitude of feeling untouchable on the part of Collect. Any other editor would have been required to remove that material as a violation of WP:POLEMIC, at ANI if need be, years ago. Jbh (talk) 11:51, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
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Proposals by User:Euryalus
Proposed principles
Purpose of Wikipedia
1) The purpose of Wikipedia is to create a high-quality, free-content encyclopedia in an atmosphere of camaraderie and mutual respect among contributors. Use of the site for other purposes, such as advocacy or propaganda or furtherance of outside conflicts, is prohibited. Contributors whose actions are detrimental to that goal may be asked to refrain from them, even when these actions are undertaken in good faith.
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Slightly shortened from the standard (sans WP:OR) -- Euryalus (talk) 15:18, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- @various people - removed "outside." -- Euryalus (talk) 21:46, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- Slightly shortened from the standard (sans WP:OR) -- Euryalus (talk) 15:18, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- Concur, except that I prefer "furtherance of conflicts" over "furtherance of outside conflicts". - MrX 16:47, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- Agree with MrX. No need to put an unintentional loophole in there someone is bound to seize on it at some point. Jbh (talk) 20:56, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- Concur - "..an atmosphere of camaraderie and mutual respect.." is hard to maintain when observing the same editor do the same detrimental things over and over again. . Buster Seven Talk 05:24, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- Concur, except that I prefer "furtherance of conflicts" over "furtherance of outside conflicts". - MrX 16:47, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
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Standards of conduct
2) Wikipedia users are expected to behave reasonably, calmly, and courteously in their interactions with other users and to approach disputes in a constructive fashion, with the aim of reaching a good-faith solution. Personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, harassment, disruptive point-making, edit-warring and gaming the system, are prohibited, as is the use of the site to pursue feuds and quarrels. Editors should also avoid accusing others of misconduct when this is done repeatedly or without simultaneously providing evidence or for the purpose of gaining an advantage in a content dispute. Editors who repeatedly violate these standards of conduct may be sanctioned.
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- A bit long, but covers most of the field of conduct alleged here. -- Euryalus (talk) 15:18, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- Concur - Seems pretty much the base line for socialized interaction to me. Jbh (talk) 20:53, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- Concur - Expected conduct in a nutshell. . Buster Seven Talk 05:27, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- Concur, with a minor concern that the limits to AGF could use further elaboration. For example, inconsistent editing (with respect to one's own contributions) and repeated refusal to collegially discuss/respond to queries (i.e., violating WP:TALK) are signs that an editor is not acting in good faith, and the attempt to appeal to AGF is sometimes made by such editors as a defensive tactic to deflect criticism of such conduct.
- That is not to say that editors' don't change their minds upon learning through the course of normal editing with respect to the sources, of course, but that citing AGF as policy can also be wielded in defense of non-collaborative editing conduct. On this page we still see editors defending Collect's BLP editing conduct, which is the same excuse he uses in order to make a pretense that he is editing in good faith according to BLP policy (as nonnegotiable, inviolable, etc.).--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 06:09, 17:39, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
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Recidivism
3) Editors will sometimes make mistakes, suffer occasional lapses of judgement, and ignore all rules from time to time in well-meaning furtherance of the project's goals. However, strong or even exceptional contributions to the encyclopedia do not excuse repeated violations of basic policy. Editors who have already been sanctioned for disruptive behavior may be sanctioned more harshly for repeated instances of similar behaviors.
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- I might perhaps prefer to word it that inappropriate participation in WP can involve either inappropriate contributions and inappropriate discussion Disruptive behavior in one aspect does not excuse positive contributions in the other. A person who can contribute good articles, but not work cooperatively in our environment, should not be working in our environment. The actual application of this principle is involves consideration of the levels and frequency of the problems and contributions. DGG ( talk ) 05:35, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
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- Concur - Mistakes are an important part of the learning process and experience can be measured by mistakes made and recovered from. Making the same mistake over and over, not learning and growing, indicates a severe problem that must be addressed for the good of the project. Repeatedly failing to learn from mistakes can become a WP:CIR issue. Jbh (talk) 20:38, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- Concur - The constant harangue about fellow editors, constantly changing editors at that, year after year, is contrary to the stated goals of collaborators working together. An editors history lives in his talk page. Buster Seven Talk 05:17, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
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Dealing with harassed editors
4) An editor who is harassed and attacked by others, whether on Wikipedia or off, should not see that harassment as an excuse for fighting back and attacking those who are criticising them. Editors should report on-wiki harassment to administrators and off-wiki harassment privately to the Arbitration Committee. Administrators should be sensitive in dealing with harassed editors who have themselves breached acceptable standards.
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- Possibly pointed in more than one direction. But also arguably covered by #2 above. -- Euryalus (talk) 15:18, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- @MONGO: agreed. -- Euryalus (talk) 21:47, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Jbhunley: The second one more than the first, but as you say they are both good points. It's the argument often put forward in post-Gamergate AE, that good-faith people get pushed into incivility by a sense of harassment from others, and that this needs to be borne in mind when using administrative tools to resolve disputes. It's not an absolute excuse, but it might be some mitigation. This sentence is the flipside of the proposal above re Recidivism, which broadly states if you keep getting sanctioned then you might be the problem. This one says if you keep getting sanctioned, you might be the victim. In most cases its a bit of both. -- Euryalus (talk) 02:17, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- Possibly pointed in more than one direction. But also arguably covered by #2 above. -- Euryalus (talk) 15:18, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- Concur. There are appropriate avenues for addressing alleged harassment. Constant whining about it is just disruptive. - MrX 15:54, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- I would like to see something either here or in another principle that addresses claims of harassment where the claiming party does not or will not address the harassment in the proper venue. Unsubstantiated claims of anything be it harassment, SOCKing, COI etc. that are not addressed in their proper forum are corrosive to the social environment and the project. Jbh (talk) 20:44, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Euryalus: On further reading I am a bit confused about the last sentence. Are you saying harassed editors may be harassing the harassers so be sensitive to who the victim is or that when dealing with harassed editors admins should be understanding that they might not be on their best behavior and cut them a bit of slack? I think both are good points. Jbh (talk) 01:26, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Euryalus: Thanks... I can support that Concur Jbh (talk) 02:40, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Euryalus: On further reading I am a bit confused about the last sentence. Are you saying harassed editors may be harassing the harassers so be sensitive to who the victim is or that when dealing with harassed editors admins should be understanding that they might not be on their best behavior and cut them a bit of slack? I think both are good points. Jbh (talk) 01:26, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- Administrators who are unfamiliar with a set of circumstances may not be able to properly referee a dispute and it is not always possible to provide such details short of in this forum or at arbitration enforcement. Harassment definitely should include repeated frivolous warnings by editors that are not administrators, the filing of unwarranted SPIs and mischaracterizations of an editor at public noticeboards.--MONGO 21:12, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- This is a reasonable principle, but its placement is a bit odd since there is no substantive evidence on the case pages that any user has been harassed. Of course, such evidence may have been provided off-wiki, in which case I'm obviously not in a position to comment on it one way or the other. MastCell Talk 16:49, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
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- I am not sure what exactly form of Wikipedia:Harassment we are talking about. Wikihounding? If so, some relevant findings of fact would be required. Yes, there are people who perceive any reasonable criticism of their editing as harassment, but I do not think that counting and addressing such "harassment" would be practical in WP environment. My very best wishes (talk) 20:57, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
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Proposals by User:Jbhunley
Proposed principles
Harassment needs to be dealt with early
1) Harassment is corrosive to the editing environment of Wikipedia. Administrators should be encouraged to step in with short blocks or other enforceable remedies as soon as they become aware of a possible pattern of harassment. The community should support them is these actions regardless of the whether the editors involved are "well established" or not. Administrators who become aware of a pattern of harassment should take some care to keep abreast of the situation and take action to ensure it does not continue of escalate. The community should support them in this.
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- @Newyorkbrad: Good point. Struck. Jbh (talk) 13:26, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
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- A merely "possible pattern" of misconduct is not a sufficient basis for blocking an editor (although it may be a basis for keeping an eye on something, or a word of caution). Newyorkbrad (talk) 12:51, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Sometimes punitive is preventative
2) The idea that blocks are preventative not punitive sometimes leads to situations where editors get multiple warnings but no other action is taken against them. This can lead to some editors feeling they are 'untouchable'. The concept of "preventative not punitive" should not be used as a shield to forestall consequences in these situations. The community should support these actions.
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- Not sure on the wording here. What I am trying to get at is if a pattern of bad acts can be addressed concretely early in the cycle it is unlikely to become a major disruption. Jbh (talk) 12:46, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- Problem is that when blocks are placed in a punitive manner they are routinely overturned because they are punitive.--MONGO 04:49, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, the principle here is that the community should support administrators if they can explain why a punitive block is good for the project and justified. Too many 'we will let you off with a warning because blocks are not punitive' and some editors stat to feel/act 'untouchable' this is bad for the project because people loose respect for the process and feel that if they bring an issue up nothing will happen. Drama increases, frustration increases, disruption increases. None of that is good and it only gets worse the longer it goes on. Jbh (talk) 12:58, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
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Misrepresentation of others
3) Misrepresentation of other editors words or views by selective quoting, removal of context or in any other way can harm the collaborative editing environment necessary to build the encyclopedia by destroying trust and respect among editors. While anyone can make an honest error through misunderstanding or forgetfulness repeatedly or purposely misrepresenting other editors indicates an editor who is not a benefit to the project. See WP:CIR and WP:TPNO
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- An editor who misrepresents his colleagues does not have the competence required to participate in a collaborative editing environment. Jbh (talk) 00:04, 9 April 2015 (UTC) - Also see my reply to DGG in the sources section below for why I see a competence issue. Jbh (talk) 21:04, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Concur - Editors must be able to trust that what is quoted is what was said. Anything less is deception and damages the editorial fabric. . Buster Seven Talk 04:57, 9 April 2015 (UTC) -
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- This is essentially a restatement of settled policy. See WP:CIV at "Identifying incivility," part 2, subsection (e). (Hmm, how's that for WP:BURO?) Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 05:47, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
Misrepresentation of sources
4) Accurately reflecting what reliable sources say about a subject is the essence of what we do at Wikipedia. Any editor who regularly or systematically misrepresents sources, or regularly willfully 'misunderstands' sources it not a benefit to the project. The reason for the misrepresentation is immaterial. See WP:CIR. The contents of source materials must be presented accurately and fairly. By quoting from or citing to a source, an editor represents that the quoted or cited material fairly and accurately reflects or summarizes the contents and meaning of the original source, and that it is not being misleadingly or unfairly excerpted out of context. Changed text per Newyorkbrad's suggestion.Jbh (talk) 20:59, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
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- Although the principle is correct, and there might be some very problematic edits, I do not think they would indicate competence problems, as the editor has made a great many highly competent edits. Whatever the reason may be, it's not lack of competence. DGG ( talk ) 19:52, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- NYB's suggested wording is preferable. Agree with DGG that this is not a competence issue. -- Euryalus (talk) 08:23, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- An editor who willfully and regularly misrepresents or 'misunderstands' sources for any reason, but in particular to further a dispute or POV, does not have the competence required to participate in a collaborative editing environment. Jbh (talk) 00:04, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Concur to some extent (competence would seem to relate to a capacity, based on learning/knowledge, etc., to contribute collaboratively to a given topic based on the sources (and a comprehension of the statements therein), rather than deliberately being disruptive in order to push a POV).
- Deliberate misrepresentation of sources is a form of gaming the system when an argument is being presented based on such misrepresentations vis-a-vis policy, and such conduct corresponds to tendentious editing.
- --Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 05:48, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- @DGG: I agree that Collect is technically very competent. What this principle intends is in a social and collaborative editing environment mendacity is a competence issue because it shows an inability to work in such an environment without damaging it. I have, however, changed the text to what Newyorkbrad suggested in his comment. Jbh (talk) 20:59, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Newyorkbrad: I would like to address when an editor simply refuses to acknowledge the plain meaning of a source or to discuss what they think it 'actually' means ie stonewalling by 'misunderstanding'. Do you have any ideas on wording which would address that? Jbh (talk) 22:40, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
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- If this is relevant, there is alternative wording at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/PHG#Accuracy of sourcing. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:57, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
Pattern of tactical editing
5) While editors may at sometime be guilty of violation of some or all of the principles here the violation of multiple principles of collaborative editing over time to 'win' content disputes is a problem greater than the sum of its parts. Sanctions should reflect not only the instant violation under consideration but address whether it is part of a pattern of tactical editing over time. This principle should be applied in all conflict resolution processes where sanctions are possible.
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- Wording could be better but what I am trying to get at is examining each breach on its own often can miss an editor who use multiple 'bad' techniques in their BATTLEGROUND behavior. Incivility, stonewalling, misrepresentation of sources, misrepresentation of other editors, casting aspersions, edit warring etc. are all issues which an editor may be sanctioned for and it seems that sanctions, when placed at all only escalate for multiple violations of the same type. An editor who 'spreads out' their disruption can cause quite a bit of harm. If these problems can be addressed at lower tiers of conflict resolution with incremental sanctions the problem need not get so out of hand Arbcom is the only way to address it. If the problem still gets to Arbcom there is a trail of prior 'cases' already documented. Jbh (talk) 22:35, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
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Misuse of process
6) Content dispute resolution such as RfC and the various noticeboards are valuable tools for resolving different editors interpretation of rules, applicability of guidelines, reliability of sources or any of the many things editors can disagree on in good faith. Starting discussions in these venues and then refusing to participate or not accepting the outcome is an abuse of these processes.
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- Concur - Processes for resolving differences are a critical part of any successful social endeavor. People don't always get along no matter how many rules of conduct are implemented to force then to get along. Weakening the paths to dispute resolution weakens the concept of collaborators working together in goodwill.. Buster Seven Talk
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Proposed findings of fact
Collect has misrepresented others
1) Collect has misrepresented other editors through selective quotation, removal of context and misrepresentation of their position in disputes.
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- Concur
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Collect has abused dispute resolution processes
2a) Collect has abused dispute resolution processes by repeatedly opening noticeboard discussions and RfCs to prolong or derail resolution of content disputes.
2b) Collect has failed to participate in dispute resolution processes in good faith by failing to respond to good faith requests to clarify the issues he is concerned with or by ignoring the results and forum shopping.
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- @My very best wishes: Yes, the evidence points to that. The evidence shows non-response to repeated topical questions, opening multiple DR processes on the some topic in a short time, non-notification of parties, non-neutral presentation and even opening a noticeboard thread and a campaigning thread within minutes of each other. I would call that bad faith if not disruptive intent. Jbh (talk) 13:06, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
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- Do you mean that he opened content RfC and participated in dispute resolution process in a bad faith? My very best wishes (talk) 03:52, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Collect has Canvassed/Campaigned in violation of policy
3) Collect has improperly CANVASSED (Campaigned) during dispute resolution by regularly posting non-neutral descriptions of disputed and failing to notify other parties in the dispute that he has opened a noticeboard/discussion thread.
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Collect has repeatedly cast aspersions on other editors
4) Collect repeatedly compared other editors actions or positions to McCarthyism and/or anti-Semitic views.
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- Concur Innuendo is a rhetorical device he frequently wields.--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 15:14, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
- @My very best wishes: Yes, through a constant drum beat of innuendo and direct comparison Collect framed support for the other position as being morally equivalent to McCarthyism and Antisemitism. Repeatedly saying he 'didn't mean it like that' holds no water since he continued to do so even after being told it was inappropriate and has done so at multiple times in multiple places. This behavior, in my opinion, is completely unacceptable in an editor and is way beyond simply 'going Godwin'' in a discusion. Jbh (talk) 13:15, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
- @My very best wishes: Here are a few diffs from my opening statement. Others have presented lists of diffs as well and there are others that I believe no one presented because there were so many.
- Collect -
"First - one needs strong sourcing for "members" which at this point appears to be on the same level as McCarthy's "proof" of CPUSA membership - signing an ad is sufficient to call one a Communist then"
[34] - Collect -
"...And I note that you only assert "associated with" and not "membership" here -- and in the 50s anyone "'associated' with the CPUSA" was therefore a "communist" which is precisely where I find this sort of SYNTH leads without a doubt."
[35] - Collect -
" People had their lives utterly destroyed by McCarthyism - but you seem to view that seeking to stop the "guilt by association" argument that I am "cheapening" their memories! Is your argument actually serious- or just meant to demean those who actually seek to avoid the errors of the past?"
[36]
- Collect -
- Here are some extracts from UT Jimbo Wales.
- Collect -
"This is all too reminiscent of a practice where people who signed letters for "Communist fronts" were then labelled as "Communists" which I regard as not in keeping with Wikipedia policies and principles."
[37] - Collect -
"making claims that anyone who signs a letter is now a "member" of such a group -- so anyone who signed a CPUSA ad in the 30s is now, by Wikipedia definition, a member of the CPUSA!"
- Collect -
- There are even claims of supporting conspiracy theory.
- I guess I could be found to be aligned with Collect in his thoughts on this matter though I may not have used the exact same analogy. I agree with Collect that wrongful associations of people or drawing conclusions as he was arguing against in the above diffs was his manner in combating SYNTH and that the analogy was used to put it in perspective as to being similar to the guilt by association tactics used by Joseph McCarthy during the red scare.--MONGO 16:26, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
- The article in question was deleted on the basis of a strong consensus at AfD. Collect's contribution to the discussion was notably unhelpful, and consisted largely of repetitive inflammatory analogies. In Collect's absence, this discussion would have reached the same conclusion (the correct one, in my view) with a significantly lower amount of stridency and heat. This is my point: these sorts of discussions would reach the same conclusions, and would be far healthier, without Collect's participation in them. MastCell Talk 17:31, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
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- Do you mean he blamed others of McCarthyism and anti-Semitism? Any diffs? My very best wishes (talk) 03:48, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
- It would be a good idea to support every statement (a "finding of fact") by a few diffs, just as arbitrators usually do in "Proposed decision". I asked because I saw the Evidence (such as here), but did not see any diffs where Collect was making direct accusations of this nature. OK, let's consider your examples above. All these comments were made in relation to a content/AfD discussion. But I do not see how he blamed other contributors of McCarthyism and anti-Semitism in these examples. Yes, he mentioned Communists and McCarthy, like here - as an argument why a list of people should not be kept, in his opinion. Just for the sake of comparison, let's consider this very recent example, where two contributors blame others of something like that. I think this is different. My very best wishes (talk) 15:18, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Threaded replies are discouraged. Robert McClenon (talk) 13:40, 10 April 2015 (UTC) |
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Collect has harassed other editors
5) By making repeated claims of harassment without addressing those claims in the proper venue or substantiating them Collect has himself committed harassment.
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- Concur Another rhetorical device in his arsenal of diversionary ploys. Collect's scope of harassment encompasses subtler forms than these, though. Repeatedly using incongruent analogies to cast aspersions, for example, is one such form, in my opinion. --Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 15:15, 10 April; 05:34, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
- Concur I was one of the 14 editors he accused of being socks of User:Ikip of the Article Rescue Squad. Diffs to follow. . Buster Seven Talk 06:27, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
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Collect has misrepresented BLP policy
6)
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Collect has engaged in a long term pattern of BATTLEGROUND behavior to the detriment of the project
7) By misrepresenting others, abusing dispute resolution processes, misrepresenting BLP policy, casting aspersions and harassing other editors Collect has engaged in a long term pattern of BATTLEGROUND behavior to the detriment of the project.
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- Collect has worked in difficult areas in an effort to prevent oftentimes excessive trivial negative newsspeak from violating the undue weight clause of NPOV. In that endeavour, one is bound to encounter obstructionists that will fight tooth and nail to promote negatives to support their POV.--MONGO 05:01, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
- Strongly concur--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 05:13, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
- This is very much on point. As I said in my case request statement, "Collect's contribution history consists of constructive editing overshadowed by a long-term pattern of BATTLEGROUND behavior". This FoF omits edit warring and pointy edits, but otherwise accurately describes the roughly six and half years of conduct that this case is about.- MrX 18:07, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
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Proposed remedies
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Collect (site ban)
1) Collect should be indefinitely, but not permanently, site banned. He should be allowed back when he can convince the appeals committee that he has addressed the problematic behavior cited in this case will not repeat it. Per my reasoning in 4.1.3.1-3 above.
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- Except under rare circumstances, indefinite is permanent.--MONGO 04:52, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
- I believe he should have the chance to come back to Wikipedia if he can demonstrate he has changed but I feel even more strongly that he should not simply allowed back in a year to start up this whole process again. Collect does a lot of good work. While good work seems to give some latitude to an editor's behavior Collect's bad behavior is too far over the line and too entwined with his good work to be separated. Collect has had years to modify his behavior. The bad behavior of others does not justify his persistent bad behavior nor does the damage he prevents excuse the damage he does. Jbh (talk) 13:31, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
- This remedy is a second choice for me, mostly because I think a minimum ban is necessary. Collect has brazenly rejected virtually all good faith attempts to motivate him to adjust his conduct, including his defiant conduct during this very case. He simply doesn't acknowledge any wrongdoing on his part. As an option to my proposed remedy of a one year site ban, I would favor an indefinite site ban with the option for Collect to request an appeal to the ban no earlier than twelve months from the date the case closed.- MrX 18:29, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
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- This goes too far. The issues could be resolved with carefully crafted restrictions in selected topics (e.g., BLP or politics). Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:36, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
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Proposals by User:Cwobeel
Proposed principles
Neutral point of view
1) Article content must be presented from a neutral point of view. Where different viewpoints exist on a topic, those views enjoying a reasonable degree of coverage should be reflected in article content.
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- Standard. Needed in the context of Collect's removal of significant viewpoints from BLPs, per evidence. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:49, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- Yes. Barring trivia, it's is very real problem when content appearing in multiple reliable sources is blocked from inclusion. Readers rely on Wikipedia for a concise, but full coverage of a subject, presented in an impartial tone. - MrX 21:21, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- This is dependent on the issue. Take an article like Ted Cruz for instance. Entire sections discussing his views on climate change should be, in my opinion, very limited and concise, especially since while he may be in a position of decision making at some point beyond where he is now, he is not certified by others or himself as a climate change expert, so this is a trivial matter and we are not bound as an encyclopedia to expand greatly on it just because some news organizations have done so.--MONGO 18:35, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- NPOV is non-negotiable, and the opinions of a Presidential candidate on climate change are very relevant to say the least, so I don't see how your comment is applicable. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:00, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
- It would be DUE in the Al Gore article, but since Cruz has had limited involvement in the matter, more than a sentence is UNDUE.--MONGO 07:59, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
- NPOV is non-negotiable, and the opinions of a Presidential candidate on climate change are very relevant to say the least, so I don't see how your comment is applicable. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:00, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
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Biographical content
All biographies of living persons must be written conservatively, responsibly, cautiously, and in a dispassionate and neutral tone. Edits should be backed by reliable sources. Criticism and praise should be included if they can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, so long as the material is presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a disinterested tone.
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- Standard. Needed in the context of Collect's removal of reliably sourced material from BLPs, per evidence. - Cwobeel (talk) 16:49, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- Agree with the proposal but this is not congruent with what Collect's accusers are themselves doing. Disinterested does not mean working on any article with the sole mission being to either overly celebrate or overly humiliate a subject. The efforts to prevent either is a noble cause.--MONGO 18:29, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
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Proposals by MastCell
Proposed principles
Edit-warring and recividism
1) Edit-warring is harmful to the project on multiple levels. Users who have been sanctioned for edit-warring or for other improper conduct are expected to avoid repeating that behavior in their continued participation in the project. A pattern of ongoing or escalating edit-warring is particularly concerning.
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- Standard; edit-warring is a major issue in this case, in my view. MastCell Talk 23:08, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
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Effective communication
2) Imbalances in methods, quality and volume of communications can both overwhelm and underwhelm attempts at communication on Wikipedia. If an editor refuses to communicate, or is not communicating with sufficient clarity, conciseness and succinctness, or with insufficient attention to detail, or fails to focus on the topic being discussed, then this can impede both collaborative editing and dispute resolution. Editors should recognize when this is the case and take steps to address the problems.
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- As a principle, it makes good points.. -- Euryalus (talk) 08:34, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
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- From Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Abd and JzG. I think a central difficulty here has to do with Collect's communication style. This isn't an easy thing to demonstrate in isolated diffs, but ArbCom picked up on it in the Tea Party case, where they noted that Collect was dismissive of other users' views and needlessly inflamed tensions with the other disputants. Those behaviors aren't confined to the Tea Party articles, and Collect's communication style frequently inflames disputes and impedes productive discussion. See my evidence, in particular the non-stop insinuations of McCarthyism, stonewalling of obviously reliable sources, filibustering (e.g. refusing to allow other editors to convert the adverb "abruptly" into the adjective "abrupt"), and so on. MastCell Talk 23:09, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- Indeed. We should all get to the point.- MrX 13:01, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Concur--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 15:16, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Concur - Clarity, conciseness and succinctness are lacking. Archaic language usage is excessive to the point of abrasiveness. . Buster Seven Talk 18:09, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Concur - Poor communication skills is of course an issue but when an editor uses poor communication to further or delay resolution of a dispute it moves beyond simple CIR into the area of civil BATTLEGROUND. While the difference between the two may be difficult to identify without a large sample of an editors communications it should be easy to do so with such a sample. Jbh (talk) 20:04, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
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Consensus
3) Wikipedia works by building consensus through the use of dispute resolution and polite discussion, with a shared receptiveness to compromise—and involving the wider community, if necessary. Individual editors have a responsibility to help debate succeed and move forward by discussing their differences rationally. Behaviors such as filibustering, stonewalling, misrepresentation of sources or policies, inflammatory or overheated rhetoric, and failing to listen to or engage other editors' points are disruptive, and undermine Wikipedia's fundamental content-building process.
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- Again, this is the core issue from my perspective: Collect's style of communication and argumentation is extremely counterproductive and can rapidly sidetrack serious discussion. This is the behavior that ArbCom called out in the finding against Collect in the Tea Party case, as well. Examples in evidence here include Inflammatory and battleground behavior, Stonewalling and misrepresentation of sources, Misrepresentation of policies, and Inappropriate assertion of personal expertise to "win" disputes. MastCell Talk 23:08, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- Well said.- MrX 18:14, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Concur - Editors working together does not require complete agreement but it does require respectful behavior. All editors should focus on "debate succeeding" for the benefit to the Reader. . Buster Seven Talk 19:30, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Concur - Without good methods of consensus building Wikipedia is not possible. Editors must understand that there are no 'super-votes' in consensus building and that compromise is required. Any editor who is unable to compromise or willfully subverts Wikipedia's consensus building processes in not a benefit to the project whatever their other contributions may be. Jbh (talk) 20:09, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
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Responding to mistakes
4) All editors make mistakes from time to time. Occasional mistakes or lapses in judgement are part of being human. Editors should strive to acknowledge and correct their mistakes. Responding aggressively, combatively, or defensively when one is in error is counterproductive and harmful.
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- This is a key issue, from my perspective. On the one hand, Collect makes errors rather frequently, sometimes apparently as a result of superficial or careless reading of sources or policies (see evidence here, here, and here). But when these errors are pointed out, Collect's response is suboptimal, to say the least (also in evidence in the prior links). It really poisons the atmosphere to have someone who is misreading a source or policy but attacks anyone who points out their error. MastCell Talk 23:08, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- Concur - Yes, everyone makes mistakes, it is how well and graciously we recover from them which is our measure. An inability to properly address mistakes is a weakness as an editor. An editor who is unable to admit mistakes is a detriment in a collaborative environment particularly if they choose to edit in a complex or contentious areas. Jbh (talk) 20:17, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
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Biographies of living people
5) Biographies of living persons ("BLPs") must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. This policy applies to any living person mentioned in a BLP, whether or not that person is the subject of the article, and to material about living persons in other articles and on other pages, including talk pages. The burden of evidence rests with the editor who adds or restores material.
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- Yep. -- Euryalus (talk) 10:50, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
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- Policy excerpt. Much of this case turns on BLP, as Collect has defended his behavior primarily by appealing to this policy. Nonetheless, there are repeated examples of serious BLP violations by Collect, either misrepresenting sources or using grossly improper sourcing to insert negative material into in articles and noticeboards; see also FormerIP's evidence regarding Collect's attempt to falsely accuse the economist Thomas Piketty of "fudging" his data in the relevant biographical article. Finally, with regard to protection of privacy, Collect claims as part of his evidence in this case that we should amplify an attempt by a blogger to blackmail a woman into recanting her allegations of sexual assault.
These sorts of violations would be concerning from a brand-new editor. Coming from an experienced editor who presents himself as a pillar of BLP enforcement, they suggest a fundamental lack of understanding and judgement regarding BLP. MastCell Talk 23:08, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- Agree with this statement.--MONGO 13:11, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- Policy excerpt. Much of this case turns on BLP, as Collect has defended his behavior primarily by appealing to this policy. Nonetheless, there are repeated examples of serious BLP violations by Collect, either misrepresenting sources or using grossly improper sourcing to insert negative material into in articles and noticeboards; see also FormerIP's evidence regarding Collect's attempt to falsely accuse the economist Thomas Piketty of "fudging" his data in the relevant biographical article. Finally, with regard to protection of privacy, Collect claims as part of his evidence in this case that we should amplify an attempt by a blogger to blackmail a woman into recanting her allegations of sexual assault.
- Collect assumed the same mantle with the aim of keeping a religious affiliation out of the Joe Klein article, despite consensus as to a non ambiguous self-identification on the part of the subject. The problem on BLPs is usually the addition of unwarranted negative material, but not always.
- Collect presents himself as a faithful upholder of the BLP policy and crusading defender of public figures and the like whom he claims would be harmed by additions of well-sourced content (critical or otherwise) by ill-informed and reckless (or simply malevolent) editors, but he not infrequently appears to have an ulterior motive associated with a political view.--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 12:02, 15:23, 10 April 2015 (UTC)--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 15:25, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
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- I posted a diff of User:MastCell using grossly inappropriate sourcing to insert negative material into a BLP, and also misrepresenting that source a fair bit, and it was hatted. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 15:07, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
Conduct during Arbitration
6) The pages associated with arbitration cases are primarily intended to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed, and expeditious resolution of each case. Participation by editors who present good-faith statements, evidence, and workshop proposals is appreciated. While allowance is made for the fact that parties and other interested editors may have strong feelings about the subject-matters of their dispute, appropriate decorum should be maintained on these pages. Incivility, personal attacks, and strident rhetoric should be avoided in arbitration as in all other areas of Wikipedia.
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- Standard; this version from Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Cold fusion 2. MastCell Talk 23:08, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- Concur--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 11:55, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Irrelevant comments on contributors rather than content. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:37, 10 April 2015 (UTC) |
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I understand that everyone is fair game, but in this case, at least one editor is attacking his perceived opponents everywhere but the actual Evidence pages, and that seems grossly inappropriate. MastCell Talk 23:08, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
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- These above comments are bit odd, seeing how MastCell is the one lobbing irrelevant and unnecessary personal attacks.
Repetition of request that was already denied. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:59, 9 April 2015 (UTC) |
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Proposed findings of fact
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Proposals by User:DGG
Proposed Principles
Inappropriate participation
1) Inappropriate participation in WP can involve either inappropriate contributions or inappropriate discussion. Disruptive behavior in one aspect does not excuse positive contributions in the other. A person who can contribute good articles, but not work cooperatively in our environment, should not be working in our environment. The actual application of this principle involves consideration of the levels and frequency of the problems and the amount and quality of the contributions.
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- Patterns are what we look at. If an editor is primarily interested in only being on the attack in BLP or other subject matters in which they have easily demonstrable animosity, then they need to find a new hobby. Asking them to provide impeccable sourcing for dubious or partisan claims is within our normal remit.--MONGO 19:23, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
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Reliable sources
2) The quality of Wikipedia requires the use of Reliable Sources. Selecting reliable sources requires judgement, as sources normally have different degrees of reliability of different purposes, and their proper use squires determining how and where to use them in the article. Sources, however eligible, must be used fairly and appropriately in context (avoiding what is known as cherry-picking). Partisan sources, even when they can be appropriately used, require sufficient identification, so that readers can judge for themselves their reliability in a particular situation. The use of partisan sources for negative BLP normally requires especially great caution, and requires consensus.
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- "Partisan sources" minimally needs to be defined, and preferable needs to be changed. I guarantee that one editor's neutral source, will be another editor's partisan source. This phasing would open up a Pandora's box of drama in my opinion, with an endless stream of AE and ARCA requests. Neither Arbcom nor the AE admins should be a position to adjudicate which sources are partisan and which are not. I think it would best to keep as close as possible to the wording in WP:BLP and WP:NPOV.- MrX 18:40, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
- In an article about Hillary Clinton, while both might be reliable, Fox News is likely to word things in a negative tone and MSNBC would be more positive. Therefore, news sources should routinely be seen as less than excellent. Obvious partisan websites are obviously partisan and should be avoided altogether. Were not always here to be a totality of information, but must strive for the highest accuracy and quality in our "reporting".--MONGO 19:28, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
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Lists of supporters
3) The listing of supporters or opponents of a given position requires particular care, because it is usually difficult or impossible to indicate the degree and nature of support or opposition. The standards for inclusion need to be specifically given, and especially great care must be taken not to list people in support or opposition to something when they have only an indirect or occasional relationship.
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- I see some value in this as a principle and mostly agree with it, but it seems more like pioneering than reinforcing existing policy.- MrX 18:45, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
- Membership in a group isn't just a signed petition. It must be proven by reliable sources that a person or entity pays dues, attends meetings, formulates group events and policies or works in some cohesive fashion whereby membership is obvious. If an editor repeatedly tried to say a person is a member of a group but that person in their own words and deeds shows that they are not, then we don't add them as members. Filibustering for inclusion when the evidence supports otherwise is disruptive.--MONGO 19:33, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
- I thought about that, but I consider it merely an obvious restatement of existing BLP policy. It's the same principle by which we are specially careful about brief descriptions in infoboxes and summaries and titles, and placement in categories. DGG ( talk ) 19:50, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
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Drawing analogies to historical events
3) In characterizing the nature of contributions or discussion, analogies and allusion to historical events or personalities that are widely disapproved of, is normally unproductive , and very likely to arouse personal animosities.
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- Yes, and they are best avoided altogether.- MrX 18:49, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
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Proposed findings of fact
Misuse of sources
1) Collect has a history of repeated misuse of sources, consisting in some cases of insisting upon the reliability of strongly partisan sources that support a particular point of view, and in others of rejecting ordinarily reliable sources that support another particular point of view.
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- Evidence presented does not indicate he is alone in this issue. In fact, he has fought for years to keep partisan sources from violating NPOV and BLP.--MONGO 19:35, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
- a number of people have indeed done similar on quite a number of articles. That does not mean it should be tolerated. DGG ( talk ) 19:47, 11 April 2015 (UTC) .
- Evidence presented does not indicate he is alone in this issue. In fact, he has fought for years to keep partisan sources from violating NPOV and BLP.--MONGO 19:35, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
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Proposed remedies
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1RR on articles
1) Collect is indefinitely limited to one revert in any article dealing with BLP or American politics, per 24 hour period, excepting unambiguous vandalism.
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- I would prefer to see a one-year restriction. One year would allow him to get used to the idea and would likely follow that pattern.--MONGO 20:09, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
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Limited contribution in article talk space
2) Collect is indefinitely limited to 2 contributions on any one article's talk page, per 24 hour period I am not sure we have ever implemented such a remedy, but along with the next remedy, I cannot think of anything that would more specifically address the problematic behavior.
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- I considered proposing something very similar. Combined with #3 below, it's a good remedy, but only partially addresses the totality of the problem.- MrX 18:58, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
- I would like to see several other of "Collect's opponents" also be limited in a similar manner.--MONGO 20:11, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
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Limited contribution in WP talk space and noticeboards
3) Collect is indefinitely limited on any one point in a discussion in WP talk space or on a noticeboard to 2 contributions per issue raised, per 24 hour period I am not sure we have ever implemented such a remedy, but along with the previous proposed remedy, I cannot think of anything that would more specifically address the problematic behavior.
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- Per my comments in #2 above, I think this is a good remedy, but only partially addresses the totality of the problem. My fear is that Collect might extend problematic discussions to user talk pages, AE, ARCA or other fora where the limitation doesn't apply. There's quite a bit of forum shopping evidence to support such a concern. - MrX 19:05, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
- I don't see Collect as doing anymore forum shopping than some of his adversaries. But limiting threaded discussions essentially means his adversaries could out shout Collect, who has already self proclaimed he's been harassed of BLPs anyway.--MONGO 20:15, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
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Evidence from Collect
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- It is clear from the diffs presented by Collect about my editing show they he and I sometimes disagree about content, but in no way demonstrate that I have violated BLP policy. For example:
- 333 is a comment in an RfC in which I support the consensus view that the title of the article is appropriate.
- 335 Yes, that was a snark on my part, voicing my annoyance with Collect's forum shopping, largely because he has repeatedly defended this particular sockmaster against mountains of evidence.
- 345 Not a snark; legitimate concern about wikilawyering.
- 337 not remotely a BLP violation and I think I made a sufficient argument. WP:MUG actually supports my argument.
- 346 Again, a comment in RfC is not remotely a BLP violation. The descriptor is very well-sourced, although my views on using such labels has evolved since then.
- I never claimed that Collect followed me to articles or hounded me. He claimed that I followed him to 80% of article—a claim which I proved to be false. Of the articles that we edit in common, I edited some months after Collect last edited them. (for example, Rick Perry:15 months; Steve Scalise:4 months)- MrX 20:10, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- It is clear from the diffs presented by Collect about my editing show they he and I sometimes disagree about content, but in no way demonstrate that I have violated BLP policy. For example:
- Though I didn't raise WP:HOUND or WP:HARASS during this case, I have mentioned the issue on my User Talk page and elsewhere, partly due to Collect posting this thread, which he subsequently followed with this thread on his User Talk page . Some of the evidence presented by Fyddlestix corroborates the fact that Collect was trying to carry over his grievances from previous content disputes onto new articles, and I'll add more later, such as diffs.
- The point, I suppose, is that Collect's assertion that because he had a prior edit on a given article sometime in the past that his engagement there subsequently arriving in the manner described by him on his own UT page or in a manner indicated by the diffs provided by Fyddlestix precludes the possibility of hounding or harassment is incorrect.--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 15:53, 8 April; 18:47, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Ubikwit: That whole thread is in my evidence. I addressed the initial comment he posted on that thread in my evidence. [39](Although the diff for the first comment seems to be missing. I can hunt it up again if the Arbs want me to.) The link to the whole thread in my evidence is here at the second bullet point. Jbh (talk) 17:57, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Jbhunley: OK, thanks. I didn't have time to follow all of the evidence postings/responses. Noting that Fyddlestix posted this diff as evidence,
- and made a comment that Collect has basically been goading Ubikwit into making reverts with WP:POINTy edits... in which he's adding more of the material he opposes to the article
- I'll just leave this as is, unless there is a request for clarification.--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 05:26, 9 April; 05:57, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Ubikwit: That whole thread is in my evidence. I addressed the initial comment he posted on that thread in my evidence. [39](Although the diff for the first comment seems to be missing. I can hunt it up again if the Arbs want me to.) The link to the whole thread in my evidence is here at the second bullet point. Jbh (talk) 17:57, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by others:
Evidence from Atsme
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- Comment by parties:
- Breitbart (website) December 21, 2014 - Nowhere in the removed content is the word "deliberately" or any of its synonyms. That's not strict adherence to policy; that's using the policy as a lever in a content dispute. I partially agree with Atsme, in that Collect is consistent.- MrX 20:10, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
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Accusations by Collect
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- Comment by parties:
- In his evidence, Collect accuses me of violating WP:BLP, harming people, showing disdain for real-life harassment and death threats, and so on. As supporting evidence, he offers two edits of mine to A Rape on Campus from December 2014: [40], [41]. Given the severity of this charge, I feel compelled to respond formally, although I think that perusal of the evidence alone is sufficient to show that it is unfounded.
In this edit, I remove several "See also" links from the article. Now, it is beyond me how the removal of "See also" links could ever constitute a BLP violation, although I suppose it is technically possible. In this case, the links were clearly intended to link a dubious sexual-assault accusation to "feminist theory", to Janet Cooke, and so on. "See also" links aren't intended to convey an ideological viewpoint about the article subject (in this case, using it to imply that it discredits feminism). If some notable person has linked the case in question to "feminist theory", then we report that in the article body, with appropriate sources, attribution, and context—not as a "See also" link. This is Wikipedia 101. I suppose it is arguable whether this was a "good" edit or not (I think it was), but it is absolutely laughable to misrepresent it as a BLP violation or as evidence of gross malfeasance and disregard for human dignity.
In the second diff, I remove a paragraph about a blogger who threatened to reveal personal details about the accuser unless she recanted her allegations. The blogger in question in question has a long history of publishing inflammatory (and often false and harmful) claims about living people (see New York Times profile). In this case he claimed that the female accuser was "rape-obsessed" and threatened to "reveal[] everything about her past" unless she recanted her accusation of sexual assault. Regardless of the ultimate disposition of the case, I think BLP compels us to avoid amplifying this sort of repellent blackmail, particularly in a case involving a sensitive topic like sexual assault. I removed the material as an obvious violation of WP:BLPGOSSIP, as I said in my edit summary, and frankly it seemed like a no-brainer.
For Collect to present my removal as a BLP violation is shocking but also telling. Every time he sanctimoniously repeats his absolute commitment to "do no harm", I want you to think about that edit, because this is another Emperor's-New-Clothes moment. Here, I am trying to "do no harm" to a living person by refusing to amplify a blogger's attempt to blackmail her. Collect is supporting the inclusion of threats against a living person by a blogger with a track record of false accusations and harm to living people; and in fact he is arguing that I violated BLP by removing them. I think that tells you everything you need to know about his level of consistency and integrity in applying WP:BLP. MastCell Talk 23:22, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- In his evidence, Collect accuses me of violating WP:BLP, harming people, showing disdain for real-life harassment and death threats, and so on. As supporting evidence, he offers two edits of mine to A Rape on Campus from December 2014: [40], [41]. Given the severity of this charge, I feel compelled to respond formally, although I think that perusal of the evidence alone is sufficient to show that it is unfounded.
- Comment by others:
Evidence from My very best wishes
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- I'm gobsmacked that in this link in the section Some evidence shows bias of submitters, My very best wishes characterizes Fyddlestix and my objection to being deliberately misrepresented as a "squabble". Diffs of the misrepresentation were presented:[42][43], yet no counterevidence has been presented. Notably, when I confronted Collect about his lie, instead of apologizing and retracting it, he stuck through part of it and said that I demur. He ended with a sigh. He then went on to claim that he
"was asked who the proponents were, and [he] sought to answer as accurately as [he] could."
, another misrepresentation. He was actually asked"Whose idea was it, anyway?"
. - MrX 13:56, 8 April 2015 (UTC)- Breaking the table out into a list-article was entirely my, rather bad, idea. The table and material had existed in the article for sometime before being challenged by Collect. I felt that the length of the table in the article might be UNDUE and having consensus at the article (And my firm belief.) that the material was not a BLP or SYNTH violation I spun it out all on my own. In my frustration with Collect's obstinacy I did not consider the POVFORK issue which I later found compelling at AfD. MrX and Fydlestix had nothing to do with the creation of the article-list although Fyddlestix did an amazing job of applying cites to each entry and tightening up the sourcing after I spun it out. (At the end I believe 95% of the references were scholarly). I can not speak to who created the original table in the PNAC article as it already existed when I came to the dispute via BLP/N. Jbh (talk) 14:32, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- Misrepresenting other editors positions, as in this case, seems to me to be an attempt to marginalize their input in the discussion and pre-define 'sides'. When you group editors as 'supporters' or 'accusers' other editors will often be less likely to listen to nuanced differences in their arguments. This makes compromise harder and the chance of drama much greater because the discussion is no longer a group of editors seeking consensus but rather two 'sides' battling over one of two extreme outcomes.
From my point of view this behavior is a part of the overall BATTLEGROUND pattern of behavior. Trying to emotionally frame a discussion by demonizing one side through tying it to many/various 'bad things'. cf. anti-Semitism, McCarthyism, conspiracy theories. This is an extension of non-neutral notification and Campaigning. Using an analogy once or twice is one thing but what Collect does is another. At the very least it brings more drama to a debate and at the worst it can suppress discussion.Jbh (talk) 14:32, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
- @My very best wishes: The analogy was not at all congruent to the PNAC situation, which comprised a group(s) of public figures that had signed historical documents promoting foreign policy positions. Wnt made the following comment at the AfD
This AfD shouldn't and by policy can't settle what is suitable to include in articles, but I find some of the rationales expressed against inclusion to be invalid. To begin with "COATRACK" is an all-purpose deletion buzzword that really is out of place when describing the list of signers of one or more of an organization's most notable documents. It's not like someone just randomly hung the list somewhere; it's physically part of the document of interest, which is a defining aspect of the organization. BLP certainly can't be invoked - when someone is a signer of a major, well-publicized historical document, and there's no dispute about that, I don't even see where you'd start. I get the feeling - correct me if I'm wrong - that somebody thinks that the people who signed ought to feel embarrassed that they signed, so we should protect them from that embarrassment by hiding that... which would be absurd, since after all they were going on the record about something they cared about, and it was a notable achievement.
- Collect basically accused editors supporting the list of committing a McCarthyist crime of assigning "guilt by association" (with respect to what was never even articulated) by supporting the list. It was a despicable tactic that did indeed cast aspersions. --Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 15:52, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Factchecker atyourservice: No, though the list was a work in progress, secondary sources had been found for everyone on the list, I believe, and of course the primary source letter and one report were listed as well. I've posted this reference version of deleted PNAC list on my sandbox page temporarily, assuming that there isn't a problem with that, so you can have a look for yourself. @Euryalus:@DGG: Please let me know if I should delete that reference list.--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 16:42, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Factchecker atyourservice: No, everyone in the list article was noted as being a 'member' or whatever the term by multiple scholarly sources. That they signed, that it was notable they signed and that it was notable that those signers were part of the Bush II administration were noted in single sources. (The sources said things like these X people who signed Y later became members of the Bush II administration. People say that because so many of these people were in policy positions PNAC may have had a major influence (or not) on US foreign policy.) It was not a case of a someone being mentioned as signing then another article saying they were in Bush II and another saying 'wow isn't is interesting all of these people signed a PNAC document and were part of Bush II'. I can dig up the reference list if you want and I think it has been posted on the PNAC page by Fyddlestix.
- To this day I have never heard a good explanation how that list was SYNTH or BLP for that matter. I can say with certainty that if Collect had simply expressed his specific concerns with how these policies were being violated instead of making spurious claims, using offensive analogies and claiming some unspecified 'guilt' by association I would not be here. Rather than participating in civil discourse Collect stonewalled on unsupported BLP and SYNTH claims, claims of conspiracy, something about "Jewish double loyalty" that I did not get and likening the table to tactics used by House Committee on Un-American Activities against the CPUSA during the Red Scare. This was done even while the table was in the main article.
- To an American implying support for McCarthyism is like telling a Russian that their position is the same as supporting Stalin's purges or invoking the Stasi to a German. While that time was not as bloody it is a very dark time in our history where Americans betrayed each other to their own government and those people were in turn destroyed socially, politically and economically by their own government to force them to turn on friends and associates.
I hope I have presented why this is not just a casual analogy and Collect, having claimed to have been affected by these purges knew that very well when he made hyperbolic use of it. Jbh (talk) 17:24, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
- I'm gobsmacked that in this link in the section Some evidence shows bias of submitters, My very best wishes characterizes Fyddlestix and my objection to being deliberately misrepresented as a "squabble". Diffs of the misrepresentation were presented:[42][43], yet no counterevidence has been presented. Notably, when I confronted Collect about his lie, instead of apologizing and retracting it, he stuck through part of it and said that I demur. He ended with a sigh. He then went on to claim that he
- Comment by others:
- "Diffs of the misrepresentation were presented:[3][4], "
- I'm glad that you linked some diffs, but could you please explain how you think they show misrepresentation? If they don't, both the claim and the diffs should be struck. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 14:40, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
- Here is my point. Collect was accused of making personal attacks and casting aspersions. But I do not think he actually did it. Casting aspersions is something like this (unsubstantiated accusations of contributors in a certain subject area; I am giving you a standing WP:AE example). I agree that some comments by Collect were not helpful, and the AfD and other discussions would came to the same conclusion without his participation (per MastCell). But that happens all the time in contentious subject areas. Such comments should be simply ignored. I do not see this as a reason for severe sanctions. P.S. Maybe this is because I came from a different culture, but I do not really understand what all this fuss was about. OK, let's assume that MrX and editors wanted a particular version of the page to stay not because they liked it, but for another reason. Why that matters? Why make a big issue out of this? My very best wishes (talk) 17:57, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
- P.P.S. I do not know much about PNAC, and I did not even read this AfD. However, speaking in general, I agree with Collect that placing living people in a list where they should not be (or creating a list that should not exist at the first place) may imply a guilt by association and be against our BLP policy. May be that's why this list has been deleted? Arguing that a list should be deleted because it was an WP:Attack page, such as in this example (in the diff McCarthyism is merely an analogy or a figure of speech, rather than an accusation against other editors) does not look problematic to me. My very best wishes (talk) 17:57, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
- I have a question for Fyddle and/or anyone else involved in that part of the dispute. I want to make sure I understand the scenario correctly and can't figure it out from looking at a number of diffs. Was there ever a case in which the mere fact of a person's signature having appeared on a statement of purpose or founding document issued by an organization was being used as the sole or primary sourcing for a Wikipedia-prose claim that the person was a supporter/associate/principal/etc. of that organization? ** @Jbhunley: Hmm, well, if I had to guess I would say it is the construction of a list of political affiliations out of number of disparate sources that raise Collect's SYNTH alarm, and some concerns do seem apparent to me. Making up a list in this way doesn't seem troubling when we're talking about aircraft parts or places to visit in the south of Spain, but a list of political affiliations implicates some rather more personal and ambiguous factors, not least of which is how strong or direct a given person's support or association of/with a particular group is supposed to be. The systematic noting of which person was a signatory to which document, etc., perhaps provides some indication. How meaningful or reliable an indication? It's hard to say; these are usually questions we leave to reliable secondary sources. But since there isn't a source for the list per se, we seem to have manufactured a situation in which those ordinary guideposts to writing an article do not exist for this part of the article. Is that SYNTH? I'm not sure, but inclined to say that it is. It's more than a little troubling, and while the analogy to McCarthyism may not be on all fours, and is perhaps a little hyperbolic in terms of the severity of potential, shall we say, "persecution" that would be contemplated, I don't think it's weak or inapt here. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 16:20, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
Evidence from MrX
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- Comment by parties:
- Diff-by-diff response from User:Factchecker_atyourservice to allegations made by User:MrX
- "*Asking to be spoon fed evidence that has already been presented, often in multiple forms: [44][45][46]"
- Look, diffs don't belong next to a statement unless they support it. If somebody links diffs that don't show misrepresentation, then those diffs don't support a claim of misrepresentation.
- "*Irrational statements lacking evidence:[47]"
- NONSENSE. Look at the diff — it is not even a statement, it's a QUESTION. I'm not even sure a question can be irrational, unless it's completely unintelligible in the first place. Anyway, the claim is that Collect misbehaved in X manner. If the filing parties also misbehaved in X manner, then why is a case being filed? Hence I ask whether the filing parties claim that they have not engage in this conduct.
- "*(Ironic) appeals to hypocrisy:[48][49][50][51][52]"
- I'm not calling anyone a hypocrite in any of those diffs. I'm simply arguing that if punishments are going to be administered, they should be meted out equitably. In other words, if one or more of the parties filing accusations here have attempted to abuse admin process to win content disputes, and have edit-warred excessively, and have a more serious record of blocks than Collect, then those behaviors should be noted and punished accordingly. Collect should not be singled out for certain behaviors while others are given a free pass. You're really grasping at straws by calling this an accusation of hypocrisy and I don't appreciate it.
- "*Posting evidence after the evidence phase has closed and then complaining because it was hatted:[53]"
- What does this even mean? You're posting numerous diffs after the close of evidence. And my diff wasn't hatted because of evidence being closed, so I don't see your point.
- "*Personal attacks lacking evidence:[54][55][56]"
- These are not even personal attacks! The first one is a complaint about Buster7's sensational, unsupported claims and is virtually indistinguishable from a complaint User:Beyond_My_Ken made about my submission. The second one is a recounting of relevant past misbehavior by User:MastCell and a qualitative claim about Cwobeel's editing habits. The third one is speculation about Collect's possible motives in a case of personal disagreement with Buster7. It referred to Collect's possible state of mind, not mine, and was made in response to a question by Buster. All these are squarely within the purview of the Arbs here and it's not improper to talk about it any of it.
- "*Attempting to politicize the case:[57]"
- This case is politically charged irrespective of what you or I say about it. The subject matter is politics and many of the dispute participants show partisan editing tendencies. Eleven arbs voted to accept this as a case about American politics. I think we can be honest and collegial without pretending that's not the case.
- "*Removing other editor's talk page comments:[58][59]"
- The comment had absolutely nothing to do with this case, and the removal had absolutely nothing to do with this case. The comment was hatted because it had absolutely nothing to do with this case. This criticism from you also has nothing to do with this case.
- "*(Apparently) assuming the role of Collect's lawyer and demanding special treatment:[60][61][62][63]"
- It's not inappropriate to stand up for another WP editor, and at no time have I made anything other than a strongly worded request coupled with clearly stated reasons why (IMO) it would be good to grant the request. You're presenting a simple request for an extension, which is allowed by the rules as evidence of a "demand for special treatment". This hardly seems like a serious, forthright claim. Also note that in some of those comments I'm not even asking for leeway for myself but rather for Collect. If you cannot state anything wrong with these comments please do not post complaints about them.
- "*Inflammatory remarks.[64][65]"
- That first comment was in response to JBH's inflammatory, completely uninformed and uncivil armchair psychology about Collect and his alleged lack of personal responsibility — based, of course, on zero knowledge about the man's life. The second one, I'm not even sure what you mean. Thrydulf asked for a suggestion. I made the suggestion. My suggestion involved making qualitative judgments about what I think is going on in thise case, and stating those judgments, and stating a possible way of dealing with cases like this one differently (a bit more fairly, in my opinion).
- "*Pettifoggery:[66]"
- I've never been accused of "pettifoggery" before. I note that WP:Pettifoggery is a redlink. Also, there is a clear difference between publicizing information and making it available to a narrow set of participants who are already looking for it. So what is pettifoggery in this case and how have I violated WP policy by committing it?
- If you were the subject of this case, perhaps some latitude should be afforded for your conduct, but since you're not and this is the same type of behavior that I observed at Shooting of Michael Brown[67][68] and warned you about[69], I thought it reasonable to propose this remedy."
- Yes, upon undoing some inappropriate edits by Cwobeel, I did state in personalized and sarcastic terms that I felt those sorts of edits were a habit for Cwobeel. I got blocked for it (and so did Cwobeel). And whaddya know, here we are at a forum whose express purpose is to analyze the editing habits of individual editors So I'm at a loss at your suggestion that it's somehow inappropriate for me to suggest that a particular editor displays a particular habit. Centrify (f / k / a FCAYS) (talk) (contribs) 13:44, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
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General discussion
- Comment by Arbitrators:
- In passing, no credible evidence was presented regarding either disruptive essay-writing (is that even a thing?), or canvassing. As a personal view and subject to other Committee opinions, am unlikely to support proposed findings on either of these topics. -- Euryalus (talk) 15:31, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- @MrX: Exactly so. If (if) it occurred, it had no effect. And it's not important enough to pursue. -- Euryalus (talk) 16:15, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Jbhunley: ah, I was unclear. I meant findings relating to canvassing during this case, which were raised as an accusation on the /Evidence talkpage. -- Euryalus (talk) 20:07, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- In passing, no credible evidence was presented regarding either disruptive essay-writing (is that even a thing?), or canvassing. As a personal view and subject to other Committee opinions, am unlikely to support proposed findings on either of these topics. -- Euryalus (talk) 15:31, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- Comment by parties:
- @Euryalus: I'm surprised that you don't see evidence of canvassing, but I suppose it's a misdemeanor offense anyway and probably doesn't really matter.- MrX 15:59, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- I too am a bit shocked by this since Campaigning "Posting a notification of discussion that presents the topic in a non-neutral manner" is an element of CANVASS not just improper notification. Jbh (talk) 16:20, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Euryalus: Thank you for the clarification. For a bit there I thought I would need to re-consider my position if the things I thought were improper were not. That would have been a lot of crow to eat. :) Jbh (talk) 20:26, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
- @Euryalus: I'm surprised that you don't see evidence of canvassing, but I suppose it's a misdemeanor offense anyway and probably doesn't really matter.- MrX 15:59, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
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