<div style="font-size:smaller">Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.</div>
<div style="font-size:smaller">Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.</div>
*This is one of the most ridiculous "debates" I've ever been involved in. I have stated, as many others have, that Laura should've started a discussion on [[WP:FOOTBALL]] with regards to where '''all''' national football team articles are located; a single article move request is doomed to fail as it would contradict the existing global consensus. From there on in, it has degenerated into a farcical mudslinging contest, initially started by Laura, HiLo and Clavdia, which the likes of myself and other users have ended up reacting to in equally unhelpful ways. The fact that these users seem utterly incapable of actually reading other people's posts, much less responding to them in a helpful manner, has contributed to most of the problem; Laura has constantly spun things round and round in circles by ignoring the answers to her questions, and instead repeating her questions; Clavdia and HiLo have contributed very little but inflammatory content, for the most part (although, at least HiLo did bring up a valid question about which word out of Australia/Australian is more appropriate for the title). Perhaps Laura's worst actions are to edit-war (via tag teaming with Clavdia) in two tags (NPOV and UNDUE) that are rejected by the consensus of most editors, and are simply [[WP:POINT]]y additions, into the article itself. This is despite the fact that she has openly admitted her issue is with the title, and therefore this aspect is simply a distraction in order to enforce her views strongly. I should also note that Laura has previously attempted a move of a whole bunch of Australian articles via RM back in 2011, which was soundly rejected as well (two page moves by another user a year later have directly contradicted said consensus, without the formation of a new one). Finally, I should state that I have no issue with the presence of the word "men's" being in the title, or with it staying at the same location as it is currently; however, I '''do''' strongly object to the underhanded backdoor tactics that Laura and her tag-team have used, and indeed still are using. [[User:Lukeno94|<font color="Navy">Luke</font><font color="FireBrick">no</font><font color="Green">94</font>]] [[User talk:Lukeno94#top|<i>(tell Luke off here)</i>]] 01:26, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
=== Talk:Australia national association football team discussion ===
=== Talk:Australia national association football team discussion ===
Revision as of 01:26, 30 November 2013
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Dispute overview
Dear volunteer, please have a look at this issue.I have simplified the dispute to quotations deletion only, in order to attract a volunteer here. My Past DRNs has expired without solution, so I am eager to have a at least this one solved. The other disputant may reply with other problems as well, but I prefer one solved limited issue rather than a big issue with no solution. Ykantor (talk) 09:37, 18 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
He deleted "Lapidot1994p52" since this RS is based on one of the sides only. Well, this is not true, and even if hypothetically it was correct, the RS is allow to use such a document.
He deleted quotes because they partially support the article, and does not support it fully. Even if this is correct, he could ask for better quotes but it is not a reason to delete quotes.
He delays the discussion by avoiding replying to some points, give partial explanation, try to retard the discussion by "We need to take this one step at a time.". I feel like being in a war of attrition.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I have tried to explain myself and replied to his bizarre notes, but during each round he comes with a fresh story.
How do you think we can help?
by convincing either of us, that he is wrong.
Summary of dispute by Trahelliven
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Ytantor has made several edits to Reports of pressure against the Plan in the last few days. I shall therefore comment on the article as it now stands.
1 Similar to what in the opening sentence?
2 The phrase, The Arab states threatened that creates appalling grammar, syntax and structure.
3 When there is no indication of where or when, or the circumstances in which the various statements were made, it is impossible for anyone even to look for evidence to discredit them. If Muhammad Hussein Heykal made his remark when addressing the General Assembly, in his case, a reference to the transcript or to another UN document would help. According to xx or yy should be added.
I shall now go through the other quotations.
4 and 6 The reference to Muhammad Hussein Heykal and the 1,000,000 Jews is duplicated.
5 Can Jack Brian Bloom be regarded as a Reliable Source. (Also see 3 above.)
7 The opening sentence by Malka Hillel Shulewitz? is just speculation.
On reflection, I shall explain the reason for the deletion of the four (4) quotes.
ref group=qt name="morris2008p67"/>
The quote does not support the part referenced.
ref group=qt name="unispal.un.org"/>
The quotation refers to the rejection of a specific plan of partition: the article generalises to mean the rejection of any plan of partition. The quote talks about certain Arab leaders: the part referenced generalizes it to The Arabs.
ref group=qt name="Morris2008p50"/>
This quote does not give details of where or when, or the circumstances in which the remark was made. It is impossible to investigate whether the comment was or was not made. At the very least, it should be prefaced with According to Benny Morris,
ref group=qt name="Lapidot1994p52"/>
The quotation comes from a document described on page 49 of the Selected Documents as Memorandum on the Future of Jerusalem submitted to the U.N. General Assembly by the Delegation of Israel to the U.N., 15 November 1949. The Memorandum is hardly a Reliable Source. Trahelliven (talk) 18:31, 17 October 2013 (UTC) Trahelliven (talk) 20:18, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Hello User:Ykantor and User:Trahelliven. I have read the case above and examined the relevant sections of the article talk page. Here are my thoughts and suggestions:
It appears that English is not Ykantor's first language. Therefore his English grammar is sometimes imperfect. I don't see a problem with this as long as he is willing to clarify what he means if his/her communication is not clear on any talk page. Same for his/her contributions to the article. Those that have English as a first language etc. may make grammar and spelling corrections to his/her article text just as they would with any other editor. If this becomes a problem then it can be discussed and a solution found, but right now that is a separate issue. What we are concerned with in this case is a series of sources that Trahelliven has removed from the article and which Ykantor has questioned on the talk page. What I see mainly is that the past talk page discussion is jumbled and confusing and there has been no resolution. So let's begin here:
In this edit Trahelliven removed a citation and part of a sentence. The source is a book and appears to meet the criteria of WP:RS. Ykantor can you provide a quote from the book (page 67 I presume) that supports and verifies the sentence: The Plan was accepted by the Jewish Agency on behalf of the Jewish community, but rejected by Arab governments and the Arab community as a whole?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:48, 28 October 2013 (UTC)-- — Keithbob • Talk • 01:42, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have already apologized few times for my English. Sorry.
Concerning the deleted phrase, it is a somehow funny that Trahelliven removed it's own words. It is not his first time to delete in stages. When a pro Arab guy want to avoid some embarrassing facts, it is convenient for him to delete / modify it in stages.
He does not like the factual phrase "Any form of partition was rejected by the Arabs" (my contribution), so he moved it from the header (where he should be) and minimized the surrounding words by writing "community as a whole.". [1]
His second stage is removing his own words "[and the Arab] community as a whole" [2], thus changing the sentence meaning. The Palestinian Arab rejection is not mentioned any more.
Concerning the asked quotation of mine ( -ref name="morris2008p67"- ), it was deleted by Trahelliven too at line 418. Anyway, I repeat it here as well:"p. 67, "The League’s Political Committee met in Sofar, Lebanon, on 16–19 September, and urged the Palestine Arabs to fight partition, which it called “aggression,” “without mercy"'; p. 70, '"On 24 November the head of the Egyptian delegation to the General Assembly, Muhammad Hussein Heykal, said that “the lives of 1,000,000 Jews in Moslem countries would be jeopardized by the establishment of a Jewish state". Note that this quote was initially added to other references (not mine) that were moved later by Trahelliven.
Ykantor, please avoid making statements such as 'When a pro Arab guy want to avoid some embarrassing facts, it is convenient for him to delete / modify it in stages' - such statements are considered incompatable with the cility policy. PhilKnight (talk) 12:04, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ykantor, as I mentioned earlier we are not hear to discuss any editor's past actions, edits or behavior. This is a content only discussion. Thank you.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 14:46, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keithbob, PhilKnight, I am sorry,. I could not resist it, looking at an absurd theater, where Trahelliven deletes his own words , because they are supposedly incorrect. Ykantor (talk) 18:57, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ykantor, in this discussion with Zero0000 he told you that "any form of partition" was not appropriate and it seemed that you agreed with it. On my side, I explained to you on that page that the Arab community could not be seen as one entity, ie "as a whole". Abdallah was happy of the Partition Plan and the Nashashibis were not totally opposed to it. Pluto2012 (talk) 13:13, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Please do not disrupt again the DRN, as I will not respond to it. However, I reply here once only. "any form of partition" is correct (as you said ) and it is explained in your link. However, I tried to compromise and proposed less accurate alternative sentences, but Zero have not accepted them. Concerning "as a whole", it is a pity that you do not read before writing. Those are Trahelliven words. Ykantor (talk) 18:57, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Based on the quotes provided by Ykantor I agree with Trahelliven's removal of the words "and the Arab community as a whole" as the source does not say that. However, the source appears to be relevant to the sentence and I'm wondering why Trahellivens' removed the citation.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 14:46, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
response by Ykantor
yours:"I agree with Trahelliven's removal of the words "and the Arab community as a whole" as the source does not say that".
The initial version of 14.6.2013( deleted by Trahelliven) was correct and well supported. Later I have added more support , but Trahelliven deleted it as well. In my opinion, Trahelliven's words "and the Arab community as a whole" are vague and nearly impossible to justify. I wonder if it is possible to re-use the initial words "Any form of partition[4]was rejected by leaders of the Arab community, including the Arab Higher Committee,[5][6] who were supported in their rejection by the states of the Arab League" of 14 June version? Ykantor (talk) 18:00, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
more sources for the 14 June initial version:
book|author1=Edward Alexander|author2=Paul Bogdanor|title=The Jewish Divide Over Israel: Accusers and Defenders|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=oEGEBjk-6CkC&pg=PA107%7Caccessdate=13 August 2013|date=31 December 2011|publisher=Transaction Publishers|isbn=978-1-4128-0933-7|pages=82, 107 | quote="p. 82 .when the united nations voted for a two state solution in 1947, the jewish community under british mandate overwhelmingly accepted the plan, while the arab world unanimously rejected it. fighting immediatelly erupted, with arab leaders frankly admitting that they were the aggressors
book|author=Yoav Gelber|title=Palestine 1948: War, Escape And The Emergence Of The Palestinian Refugee Problem|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=UcSUgrDsD_sC%7Caccessdate=13 July 2013|date=1 January 2006|publisher=Sussex Academic Press|isbn=978-1-84519-075-0|pages=3| quote="the Palestinians and the Arab League — not the Yishuv — promptly rejected the UN resolution on partition following the vote in the General Assembly on 29 November 1947. Immediately and intentionally they embarked on frustrating implementation of partition by violence. At first, they instigated disturbances and gradually escalated them to a lull- scale war. The Arab League backed the Palestinians’ campaign from the beginning and the Arab states joined in the fighting upon termination of the British mandate, invading the newly established Jewish state. The Arabs stubbornly repudiated any compromise that provided for a Jewish state, no matter what its borders were to be.
A Guide to Documents on the Arab-Palestinian/Israeli Conflict: 1897-2008, edited by M. Cherif Bassiouni, Shlomo Ben Ami, books.google.com/books?isbn=9004175342, M. Cherif Bassiouni, Shlomo Ben Ami - 2009 - p. 24 ; "The first Arab-Israeli war started in November 1947, as an immediate response of the local Palestinians to the Partition Plan decided by the General Assembly (Resolution 181), which the violently opposed.
Coffins on Our Shoulders: The Experience of the Palestinian Citizens of Israel, books.google.com/books?isbn=0520245571, Dan Rabinowitz, Khawla Abu Baker - 2005, p. 31, "The palestinian refusal to accept any form of partition of their homeland was absolute...The resolution by the U.N in favour of partition on November 29, 1947, triggered an immediate wave of Palestinian guerilla warfare against Jews, with hits and skirmishes in various parts of the country." Ykantor (talk) 20:26, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ykantor, this wall of text (above) is not appropriate and is disruptive to this dispute resolution process. At the present time we are discussing one sentence and one source. Please stay within the parameters of this limited discussion.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:22, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Part II
I agree that my edit of 16 June 2013 was not satisfactory. Any form of partition[4]was rejected by leaders of the Arab community, including the Arab Higher Committee,[5][6] . This phrase, however, is too wide. It implies that every possible proposal was made, and then rejected.
I do not like the use of the phrase, the Arabs opposed, when they really mean Arab leaders opposed or Arab governments opposed (regardless of what the sources say). The Arab community, as against their leaders and governments, was not consulted. Trahelliven (talk) 22:41, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Trahelliven, thanks for your honest assessment of your edit. What I suggest is the we reinsert[ion of] the citation and adjust[ment of] the text to accurately reflect what the source says. Would that be agreeable to you? If so, what text would you suggest? Thanks, -- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:23, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
People are welcome to follow your suggestion. But in the last weeks, several editors have been hauled by Ykantor to DRN regarding these articles. The problem is, what is the function? If there is a resolution between Trahelliven or any other single editor taken here by Ykantor on one or two words, in several of these issues, that dispute is not resolved, technically. It only translates as resolving a dispute between 2 of several editors. If Trahelliven can agree with Ykantor on how to phrase this, it, yes, will have a certain binding value between them, but is not binding for the others, and you risk creating a merry-go-round. In my own dispute, I declined to use this page, and said to Ykantor and the mediator, that the whole issue or any issue Ykantor raises there should be left to the talk page. So should this, surely. If not, then to avoid endless one-on-one negotiations that skip WP:Consensus on the talk page, the efficient method is to ask Ykantor to iron out his disagreements with all editors, at the talk page.Nishidani (talk) 16:41, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Nishidani and thanks for your comments. I understand your frustration. What I am doing here is responding to a case which outlines a dispute between two Ykantor and Trahelliven. Its a narrow scope, two people and four diffs. If those parties are interested we can go through those four diffs and attempt to resolve those 4 edits. And you are correct it will only create and understanding between the two of them and the result is not binding for the article. Just as any noticeboard discussion is not binding. The final word is the talk page consensus. Also the purpose of this noticeboard is to attempt resolution over issues of content. It is not a place to discuss editor behavior. So if you, or others, feel that an editor is being disruptive and has violated some of WP's behavioral policies than there are other venues for that such as WP:ANI. Meantime, if Ykantor and Trahellivan wish to end this resolution attempt and prefer to move discussion back to the talk page, I would certainly support that. Best, -- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:05, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If possible, I prefer to continue here, since the talk page consensus is always against me, as I am the only regular Israeli guy there. Nishidani knows it, and naturally prefer the article talk page. (Interestingly, he previously gave other reason for his avoidance of the DRN / Mediation, which was a lack of spare time.)
As you, Keithbob said, "Its a narrow scope, two people and four diffs". It is preferable to solve it now, rather than trying to adapt the solution to other editors taste. I do not see any advantage in a talk page endless discussion, with a war of attrition tactics e.g. not replying to my points, replying to what I have not said, attacking me personally, breaking WP "Petit" rules etc. I am able to provide examples for those applied tactics against me.
I have proposed to return the 14 June version,(before Traheliven started his successive deletions). Is this proposal accepted? Ykantor (talk) 18:40, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nishidani's personal reply, collapsed per Coordinator's request
Not lack of spare time, if I recall. But desire not to waste time. I do wish you would not use the 'regular Israeli guy' thing (you come over as indeed a 'regular guy'). Consensus-building looks at source quality and WP:NPOV. Zero is his own man; Pluto and I have disagreed in the past. I haven't edited with Trahellivan. The ethnicity or nationality of a person is irrelevant. Just to clarify on the methodological objection. If you see a consensus against you, it is not sensible to choose one editor of several, time and again, and refer to this page, because, as I stated above, the end result will not be binding on others, whatever it is. It functions when only two people are on that page. Secondly, part of the reason you have problems on the talk pages is that your passion for the subject leads to WP:TLDR length-comebacks. Most editors strive for reasonably to the point brief arguments (I in the past have erred in this sense too), because life is short. IF you were more succinct,you'd probably get better feedback. As it is, the style of intensive bullet-point screeds begging for equally lengthy rebuttals, just turns editors off. It looks, to use a word you employ below, 'attritional'. There is no 'tactic' involved, that I can see, adopted against you from other editors. It is sheer fatigue with trying to cope (WP:AGF) with the prolixity of your passionate pleading for a version of history as the truth, which most editors learn to realize is not what wikipedians do. I for one have no intention of taking you to court over this. You are undoubtedly passionate and sincere and hardworking: it's just it is totally incompartible with WP:NPOV.Nishidani (talk) 19:43, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that we return to the 14 June version, but only as the basis for discussion. We should include the first two sentences in the discussion:-
The Plan was accepted by the Jewish Agency on behalf of the Jewish community. Any form of partition[4]was rejected by leaders of the Arab community, including the Arab Higher Committee,[5][6] who were supported in their rejection by the states of the Arab League.
I have three problems with these two sentences:-
1 The absolute statement was accepted by the Jewish Agency doe not reflect the reservations in the first sentence in the section - Reactions: Jewish reaction.
2 Regardless of what the sources say, how do we know any acceptance was sincere?
OK, it appears Yanktor and Trahelliven have agreed to "return to the 14 June version". We also note that Trahelliven has specified that this agreement does not preclude further discussion on the article talk page about ways to further refine or amend the sentence(s) so that it most accurately reflects available reliable sources. Is this agreeable to both of you?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:40, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keithbob: I am sorry that I continue to bother you but it seems that Trahelliven want to continue his war of attrition tactics with bizarre claims, restarting claims that have been already discussed etc. I would prefer having a solution here, if possible.
Concerning Trahelliven last comments:
"was accepted by the Jewish Agency ". This is the stable version (i.e. before our argument) and justifiably so. The overwhelming majority of the Yishuv (the Jews in Palestine) rejoiced the partition decision. . Trahelliven claim is bizarre since most of the agreements between nations / ethnic groups are supported by a majority and not by 100% of the population. According to Trahelliven claim, Wikipedia should specify small opposition groups whenever an international major agreements is mentioned !
"Regardless of what the sources say, how do we know any acceptance was sincere?".
Trahelliven claim is bizarre since it is relevant for every agreement between nations / ethnic groups. So should Wikipedia discuss it every time?
"Regardless of what the sources say" . It seems that Trahelliven prefer a wp:or ??
"the Arab leaders rejected this Plan, how do we know that they would reject every other possible plan.". Restarting claims that have been already discussed? The Arabs said openly that they would accept a unitary state only. It means opposing any alternative like a partition of the country (The partition size does not matter ). I have quoted a lot of wp:rs (in this discussion as well). Ykantor (talk) 05:27, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Coordinator's note: This is not a big deal, but could everyone be careful to avoid putting an edit or post in the midst of another editor's edit or post? It makes the discussion very difficult to follow by the volunteer (and everyone else) and makes his work harder by forcing him to have to go to the history page to make sure he understands what's right. It's fine, of course, to insert a response between two prior complete posts, so long as the new post is properly indented and signed, but it's not okay to do so in the middle of someone else's single posting. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:02, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Ykantor, You mentioned at the start of this case that some of your prior case requests had been ignored. I'm beginning to see why:
You have been asked, more than once in this discussion to avoid name calling and personal attacks, yet you continue again and again without provocation: ("it seems that Trahelliven want to continue his war of attrition tactics with bizarre claims"). We are here to discuss content only. If you make one more mention of any editor during the remainder of this discussion I will immediately withdraw from this case and leave it to other editors to take over if they chose to do so.
Nothing that is negotiated here is binding to the article or talk page and all WP content is subject to discussion and change at any time. With that in mind you said: "I have proposed to return the 14 June version". Trahelliven has agreed to your request, so I consider the matter of edit #1 to be closed. Would you like to proceed to a discussion of the next edit? -- — Keithbob • Talk • 19:57, 31 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize, and I will not repeat it. I am very much interested to continue and to solve the dispute.
yours "I consider the matter of edit #1 to be closed". I will appreciate it if you re consider the decision to close edit #1. The problem is his claims.
He wants that every time that the leadership and the majority of the people are accepting an agreement, we should specify some small minorities who oppose the agreement. If we accept his claim, we have to modify a lot of Wikipedia article accordingly. I do not think it make sense.
his "how do we know any acceptance was sincere?". it is impossible to prove that the acceptance was sincere for any international agreement. If we apply this question to other Wikipedia articles, they will be stuck as well.
what can be done in order to avoid such obstacles?
Summary--OK, within the context of this DR, I am considering the discussion of "edit #1" to be resolved with the agreement it will be returned to the July 14th version (pending consensus of other editors at the talk page) and further changes will be discussed on the talk page amongst all the editors who are active there.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 22:30, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Part III
OK, moving along in our discussion of this edit to the second part, which we will call edit #2.
The Arabs opposed any form of partition and continued to demand independence in all of Palestine. The Arabs argued that it violated the rights of the majority of the people in Palestine, which at the time was 67% non-Jewish (1,237,000) and 33% Jewish (608,000).
Rather than remove valid sources I'd generally think its better to amend the text to more accurately reflect what the sources say. Can we get quotes from these two sources that support the text under discussion here?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 22:30, 1 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
My contribution is "The Arabs rejected any form of partition" (it was "rejected" and not "opposed" only). The rest of the sentence (edit #2) is not mine, and in my opinion it is accepted by all sides. Concerning RS, there are 4 more RS in the hidden section "response by Ykantor", just before part II starting. Those RS say:
Edward Alexander: " the arab world unanimously rejected it."
gelber "the Palestinians and the Arab League ... promptly rejected the UN resolution on partition"
Bassiouni: "The first Arab-Israeli war started in November 1947, as an immediate response of the local Palestinians to the Partition Plan ... which the violently opposed.
rabinowitch: "The palestinian refusal to accept any form of partition of their homeland was absolute"
Morris 2008 p. 66: "The League demanded independence for Palestine as a “unitary” state"
Morris 2004 p.60: "Palestine’s Arabs (and the Arab states) had rejected the UN partition resolution"; p. 65: "The AHC, which flatly rejected the resolution and any thought of partition" (The AHC was the Arab Palestinians leadership.)
United Nations, section 116: on 1947 "The leaders of the Arab delegations "re-emphasized that no proposal which involved any form of partition or Jewish immigration would be acceptable as a basis for the solution of the problem" ; section 165 "The Arabs consider that all of the territory - of Palestine is by Tight Arab patrimony...., they would regard as a violation of their "natural" right any effort, such as partition, to reduce the territory of Palestine." Ykantor (talk) 20:55, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It would seem that the sentence: The Arabs rejected any form of partition is adequately supported by the sources Ykantor has provided above. Do you agree? -- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:43, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The issues is that "any form" is only "supported" by 2 of these quotes (not necessarely RS) and that the final sentence extrapolates what the WP:RS sources say as can be checked by the full context from which the are excerpted.
Note that this sentence is also expected to be added in the section dealing with the Arab reaction to the Partition Plan...
Sources 1, 2, 3, 6 do not talk about "any" partition. They just state the Arab rejected the Resolution or the vote.
Source 5 doesn't refer to claim after the resolution but sooner in '47 even if they are interesting. Source 7 is a primary source (and should be contextualised by historians in a context of negociations before a vote)
Source 4 is the only one that is so categorical. It is a WP:RS source but it is not a book dedicated to the topic of the Partition or the war directly (see here) at the contrary of numerous books published by WP:RS sources.
These sources state in fact that the : "Arab leaders rejected the UN Resolution".
We can go deeper in the analysis, in taking one of the most respectful of these scholars : Benny Morris (2008) (Ykantor agrees on that even more this scholar is rather pro-Israeli).
Not at p.66 but at the bottom of p.63, he describes the Jewish and Arab delegations [sic ; not just Arab...] reactions. He writes
"The Arab delegations walked out of the plenum after declaring the resolution invalid". We are far from the image given by the sentence "rejected any form of Partition" (I point out that Ykantor here above claims "rejected" is the right term and not not just "opposed"). P.64 is a map and page 65 Benny Morris reports the reasons :
"As one Palestinian historian later pu it, they could not fathom why 37 percent of the population [the Jews] had been given 55 percent of the land (of they owned only 7 percent)"
"Moreover, th eJEws had been given the best agricultural lands" while the Arabs had received the "bae and hilly" parts, as one Palestinian politician, Awni Abd al§Hadi, told a Zionist agent".
The sentence "the Arab rejected any form of Partition" pictures Arab [as a whole] as uncompromising fanatics. It is a little bit more complex.
But that is even more complex given one leader in the Arab side was in favor of the Partition. Benny Morris (eg), The Road to Jerusalem: Glubb Pasha, Palestine and the Jews, 2003, chapter 4 explains why Abdullah I of Jordan, who was maybe the most important Arab leader, was very satisfied of the Partition Plan even if he was sometimes ambigous on the question given he expected to annex the Arab part to his Kingdom. So picturing the Arabs as 1 entity is not appropriate either.
So, a possible sentence would be : "Arab leaders publicly rejected the UN Resolution" and we could develop the reasons.
p.11 : "the Arabs were serious in their determination to prevent a solution that would not grant full independence to a unitary state in Palestine". That means, the Arabs would not accept any other solution e.g. any form of partition, cantons, federation etc. This is not wp:or since it is similar to simple arithmetic WP:CALC, in the sense that demanding unitary state only is sufficient to prove that they rejected any form of partition.
P 18 "The most important decision of the Arab League regarding Palestine was … to establish a military committee …The most significant power raised by the military committee was of no avail to the Palestinians. The ALA had been intended to be a force that would fight against any political solution that would not lead to the establishment of a unitary state in Palestine"
Pluto2012 should remember that he already said that the sentence "The arabs rejected any form of partition" is correct. If it is important, I can find his quote.
If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;
If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents
I suggest that those who oppose the sentence, will provide a RS that confirm their view. i.e that the Arabs agreed at least to one form of partition. Ykantor (talk) 15:11, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Pluto2012, and thanks for your detailed analysis of the sources. Is there a way we can amend the sentence so that it more accurately reflects what the most reliable sources say?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:45, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
David Tal (2004). War in Palestine, 1948: Strategy and Diplomacy. Routledge. p. 16. ISBN 978-0-7146-5275-7. "The Arab heads of state discussed partition at a meeting in Cairo on 8–17 December 1947...because of public reaction in Lebanon to the Partition Resolution, he found it difficult to show moderation.Samir Pasha of Jordan and Yusuf Yasin of Saudi Arabia warned that the climate in the Arab world was such that inaction by any Arab government would endanger the life of its leader". The Arab people rejected it as well (not the leaders only) Ykantor (talk)
Morris 2008
p. 66 :"All the regimes, none of them elected, suffered from a sense of illegitimacy and, hence, vulnerability. All the leaders, or almost all (Jordan’s Abdullah was the sole exception), lived in perpetual fear of the “street,” which could be aroused against them ... claiming that they were “selling out” Palestine."
p. 67: "The fear of the Arab “street” would figure prominently in the decision-making of most of the Arab regimes as they inched toward the invasion of May 1948."
p. 73: "in order not to appear weak-kneed and hesitant, moderate rulers—such as Abdullah—allowed themselves to be pressed into extremist policies (or at least utterances), lest they be seen as insufficiently zealous. "
Concerning rejection of any form of partition:
Morris 2004 , p. 88, The AHC, which flatly rejected the resolution and any thought of partition, declared a three-day general strike . Ykantor (talk) 21:42, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Gelber 2006, p. 138,. "the Palestinians and the Arab League — not the Yishuv — promptly rejected the UN resolution on partition following the vote in the General Assembly on 29 November 1947. Immediately and intentionally they embarked on frustrating implementation of partition by violence. A... The Arabs stubbornly repudiated any compromise that provided for a Jewish state, no matter what its borders were to be. Ykantor (talk) 02:35, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Michael J. Devine, Harry S. Truman, "the State of Israel, and the Quest for Peace in the Middle East". p. 47. (on 1946 end): "unequivocally rejected any form of partition of Palestine or recognition of any collective rights for the existing Jewish community in that country". (on 1947") "insisting that Palestine should remain a unitary Arab state". p. 55 (on 1947 end) "claiming that Palestine should be a unitary independent state". Ykantor (talk) 20:42, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
So, Gelber writes "rejected the UN resolution."
And p.16 (which is the introduction paragraph of the chapter describing the events that followed the resolution), he writes: "The yishuv rejoiced while the Palestinians condemned the UN decision"
And p.vii, he writes: "The Palestinians leaders, supported by public opinion, decided that the UN resolution was wholly unacceptable, hence the sporadic attacks (...)"
And p.17, he writes: "The strike on 2 December gave Palestinians across the country an opportunity to demonstrate in protest against the UN resolution"
And p.46, he writes: "In the wake of the UN resolution a wave of agitated protests swept the Arab world."
And Yoav Gelber is a pro-Israeli scholar, who strongly disagrees with the New Historians not to talk about Palestinian ones.
The topic is much more complex than what could emerge from picking some words from different quotes to make say to a final sentence what we want it to say...
It seems there were "condemnations, protests and rejections" for what was considered as an "unacceptable" "UN resolution".
Did anyone ask the Arab traders in every Moroccan bazaar their views on giving the Jews in Palestine a small section of Tel Aviv beach? If anyone can produce evidence on that, I shall concede that the Arabs opposed any form of partition. Trahelliven (talk) 21:00, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Part III continued (arbitrary break)
OK, so we have two suggested sentences:
The Arabs rejected any form of partition--supported by Ykantor
Arab leaders rejected the UN resolution--proposed by Pluto2012 and supported by Trahelliven
Would it be a fair compromise to say?:
Arab leaders rejected the UN resolution's proposed partition
I think it has to be 'Arab leaders' for grounds other than RS. In general, we are all heirs to ethnic stereotypes. In my private discourse I never say 'the Arabs', 'the Jews', the 'Americans', the 'Russians' etc., on principle, because as scholarship shows, collective identity never imbricates over, let me say, coincides with, the complexities of sub-group opinions or individuals within any ethnic group. Scholars often fall into the trap: we have Zeldin on 'The French'; Hedrick Smith on 'The Russians' but the books themselves invariably tell you that such collective languague is shorthand, and is belied by the internal diversity of each nation. The typical antisemite reacts to, say an act of violence or fraud or whatever by someone of Jewish background, by saying 'the Jews', or we are told invariably when a jihad fanatic murders someone that 'Arabs' did it. Wikipedia is especially wary of any use of terminology which tilts the text towards prejudice. It's narrativce voice is neutral, and this commonplace (even in good sources) use of identitarian collective terms for historical incidents is inappropriate on those grounds alone.Nishidani (talk) 18:38, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Since Pluto2012,Trahelliven, Nishidani oppose the term "rejected any form of partition", I expect them to provide a RS who say that they accepted at least one form of partition. As Jimbo Wales said, '"If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents". Where's the beef?
I prefer "Arab leaders" to "The Arabs" for the reason given by Nishidani (which I had already explained to Ykantor) and also because of the absence of the defined article "The", which means that some may have not rejected the partition. This fits better the different quotes that Ykantor and I provided.
As already mentionned to Ykantor, Abdullah and Nashashibis supported Partition. It is written and sourced in the article that: "Few Palestinian Arabs joined the Arab Liberation Army because they suspected that the other Arab States did not plan on an independent Palestinian state. According to Ian Bickerton, for that reason many Palestinians favored partition and indicated a willingness to live alongside a Jewish state.[50] He also mentions that the Nashashibi family backed King Abdullah and union with Transjordan.[51] (...)"
There is something wrong in the English of The Arabs rejected any form of partition. Is the sentence meant to imply that every possible form of partition was put to the Arabs? In that case the sentence should read The Arabs rejected every form of partition. On the other hand the use of any is hypothetical and does not necessarily mean that there were any canvassing of opinions at all. It is just that, if there were, all would be rejected. In that case the sentence should read The Arabs would reject any form of partition. The sentence, as suggested by Ykantor, somehow tries to fit between the two. He should make up his mind which he wants to say. Trahelliven (talk) 03:42, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
to:Pluto2012, Trahelliven,Nishidani:
If you can not cite a RS for the Arabs support of at least one form of partition, than, in my opinion, we should converge and agree to "rejected any form of partition"
The term "Arabs" carry here in Israel the connotation of danger, but as one is meeting frequently Arab persons (e.g a pharmacist, in the supermarket), he is accepting them as any other individual. The term "Jews" or "Zionist" has bad connotation for a lot of people. However, in my opinion there should be no problem to use those terms as a short for most of the people of the relevant group. BTW "Zionist" and "Israeli" are not identical terms. Zionist= people who support the ideology that Jews should immigrate to Israel. (e.g. It could be an American person, not necessarily a Jew). Ykantor (talk) 06:59, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Forgetting Abdullah of Jordan, you cannot even say:-
Any Arab who was was asked his or her opinion on this particular form of partition rejected it.
It may be that on 26 November 1947 two Arab friends living in Telaviv were chatting over a cup of coffee and one said to the other, "I like the idea of living in Jewish state.". It would have been logistically impossible to have asked every Arab living in Telaviv on 26 Movember 1947, "Did you meet a friend over coffee and admit that you would like living in a Jewish state?" Trahelliven (talk) 11:09, 5 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ykantor is confusing the difference between a contradictory proposition and a contrary proposition. He assumes that accept and reject are contradictories ;i.e a particular form of partition was either accepted or rejected; in fact they are contraries, i.e there is a middle ground; neither accepted nor rejected because nobody was ever asked. For example no-one ever asked, "the Arabs" whether they would agree to the Jews being given a small section of Telaviv Beach. [3]
Ykantor is also confusing the burden of providing RS. He has to provide RS to show a proposition is true. I do not have to provide RS to show that it is not true. Trahelliven (talk) 19:53, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
WP:BURDEN says that in the case of challenged content that is unsourced, the burden of proof lies with the editor who inserted it. And since multiple editors have challenged the phrase: "rejected any form of partition", I think the burden of proof lies with those that want to re-insert it in the article. So far I don't believe I've seen a source that says exactly that and WP:OR cautions us against drawing our own conclusions based on multiple sources. So getting back to our proposed text. Who supports the text: Arab leaders rejected the UN resolution's proposed partition ? Do we have a consensus on that text along with appropriate sources selected from those cited above?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:11, 6 November 2013 (UTC)-- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:19, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Lapidot 1994 p.52 (a quote of an U.N document) "The Arab world had taken up arms, not only against the establishment of a Jewish State, but also with equal fervor and greater success against the establishment of an international regime in Jerusalem".
rabinowitch(2005), p. 31: "The Palestinian refusal to accept any form of partition of their homeland was absolute" (limited to the Palestinians)
Morris 2008 p. 11 "the Arabs were serious in their determination to prevent a solution that would not grant full independence to a unitary state in Palestine". Morris 2008 p. 50 "Azzam, the Arab League secretary general, reacted...Up to the very last moment, and beyond, they [the Arabs] will fight to prevent you from establishing your State. In no circumstances will they agree to it”. p. 66 "The League demanded independence for Palestine as a “unitary” state,".Ykantor (talk) 05:56, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Gelber 2006, p. 138 "The Arabs stubbornly repudiated any compromise that provided for a Jewish state, no matter what its borders were to be".
Michael J. Devine, Harry S. Truman, "the State of Israel, and the Quest for Peace in the Middle East". p. 47. (on 1946 end): "unequivocally rejected any form of partition of Palestine or recognition of any collective rights for the existing Jewish community in that country". (on 1947") "insisting that Palestine should remain a unitary Arab state". p. 55 (on 1947 end) "claiming that Palestine should be a unitary independent state". Ykantor (talk) 05:37, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have pointed out above that, regardless of what "RS" say, it is logistically impossible for anyone to adduce evidence in support of Ykantor's proposition.
As regards Lapidot, I repeat what I have said twice already:-
ref group=qt name="Lapidot1994p52"/>
The quotation comes from a document described on page 49 of the Selected Documents as Memorandum on the Future of Jerusalem submitted to the U.N. General Assembly by the Delegation of Israel to the U.N., 15 November 1949. The Memorandum is hardly a Reliable Source. Trahelliven (talk) 18:31, 17 October 2013 (UTC) Trahelliven (talk) 20:18, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
to Trahelliven: You repeat the same mistakes again and again. It is very frustrating.
yours: "regardless of what "RS" say". I have already told you that you are not authorized to ignore Wikipedia rules, and advised you to ask the Help Desk, where neutral editors may help you to follow the rules.
yours:"The quotation comes from a document described on page...". I have already told you that you have a mistake. The text is a direct quote of an official U.N document of 16 Feb 1948. Will you please explain how come that a 1948 document is quoting a 1949 document (as you claim)? Ykantor (talk) 16:49, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ykantor, I think you have cited policy correctly and made a good case for sources that support the statement "rejected any form of partition" however, the statement is contentious and general while the sources vary in that they were made at various times in various formats and with varying amounts of specificity and terminology. So I think in such a contentious area one may want to avoid summarizing several sources into one compact phrase that is made in WP's voice and without any specificity as to the circumstances or time period or perspective from which the various sources made their statements. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:34, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think that we have achieved support for the sentence: Arab leaders rejected the UN resolution's proposed partition and I think that may be as a good a compromise as we will be able to achieve in this forum.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:27, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am sorry but this sentence is not a compromise. This is the view of the pro Arab side, that could not support their view (although they were not obliged to). I supported my view and I can not understand how come that an unsupported view is chosen and not the supported one.
I am really thankful and appreciate your hard work here, especially so since my wp:drn experience is frustrating- my disputes were not treated. I would like to advance here, and to compromise to some extent, although I have proven the text, while the other side have not cited even one RS that support their view.
How can we advance? An alternative text is not so compact.
what was rejected? Any plan that is not one unitary state in all of palestine, in which only 1/6 of the jews are eligible for a citizenship. (I have a quote for that in the talk pages). What are those rejected alternative: A partition (i.e A jewish state in a part (small or big) of palestine), A federation, and Cantons. An international region is not accepted as well.
Who has rejected: An overwhelming majority of the Arab leaders, Arab media and the Arab people.
The proposal of Keithbob is not pro-Arab : there is not a single Arab historian source that was provided here. All the excerpts that I provided are from the book of Yoav Gelber, an Israeli scholar who is even not New Historian. I chose this precisely to prove that Ykantor's proposal is a selection of quotes that push a point and that doesn't fairly report all of the pov's on the quesiton. This proposal doesn't comply with WP:NPoV
Keithbob is very "compromising" to state that the quotes provided by Ykantor support that "any form of Partition" was rejected. It is only in Rabinowich (that I already commented) and the other one is Harry Truman... It is a joke ?
What was contested/rejected/opposed is the UN resolution [of Partition]. There is nothing to add.
It was sourced also that Abdullah of Jordan expected the Partition and it is already in the article that the Nashashibis, ie the second most influencial clan among Palestinian Arabs, were not opposed to the Partition. So using the term "The Arabs" is pure pov-pushing and must be replaced by "Arab leaders".
Keithbob, would you mind asking Ykantor to answer these specific points ?
I thrust Keithbob neutrality. please do not falsely claim that I have said it. I have not!
You claim that Gelber does not support the text ("rejected any form of partition") ? Is it a joke? Gelber said: "The Arabs stubbornly repudiated any compromise that provided for a Jewish state, no matter what its borders were to be". Gelber statement supports "any form of partition" and more. Read it slowly again and think about this equivalence.
Concerning Abdullah and Nashashibi, you misrepresent the question. The question is whether the Arab big majority rejected any form of partition. It is common for an ethnic quarrel that a minority (e.g Abdullah and Nashashibi) have other opinion. You failed to present even one RS whose claims support your view i.e. that an Arab majority accepted at least one form of partition.( although you were not obliged to, but As Jimbo Wales said, '"If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents". May we conclude that you can not find a supporting RS?).
If I am wrong, I would like to know what is wrong. At the moment it seems that the supported view is not accepted, while the unsupported view is accepted. Ykantor (talk) 18:22, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It means that you can not present even one RS whose claims support your view i.e. that an Arab majority accepted at least one form of partition. Ykantor (talk) 05:32, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The contray of "Arab rejected any partition" is not an "Arab [majority] accepted at least one form of partition". And whatever, both approaches are WP:OR
I already told you that you have to summarize what all WP:RS report and you already said you refused, as proven by this case and others.
I cannot speak for Pluto2012. I for myself do not hold the view that an Arab majority accepted at least one form of partition. I do hold the view, however, that if the Jews had been offered nothing more than a square centimetre of Telaviv Beach, the Arab leadership would possibly have accepted such a partition. Trahelliven (talk) 06:15, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Part III continued (second arbitrary break)
OK, so the proposals on the table are:
The Arabs rejected any form of partition--supported by Ykantor
Arab leaders rejected the UN resolution--supported by Pluto2012 and Trahelliven
Does someone want to propose a third version that they feel would be a compromise between the two that all three parties could agree on? -- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:16, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Trahelliven just said:"I for myself do not hold the view that an Arab majority accepted at least one form of partition." (except of a very small region). This sentence is identical to "rejected any form of partition".
Anyway, I have to answer to the edit that he provides :
1. "Palestinian Arab Representatives" and "Arab League" is not "The Arabs" as pointed out and already discussed here above.
2. There is a difference between wanting to add a sentence at the beginning of a section, out of any context, as Ykantor wants here AND the global sentence as provided in that edit at that place and starting by "Arguing that the partition plan was unfair to the Arabs with regard to the population balance at that time (...)"
I am not sure where this leaves me; I have nothing more to add on this topic. that just leaves the question of my deletion of the quotations. Trahelliven (talk) 04:10, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
How about?
Apart from a few exceptions, the Arab leaders and governments rejected the plan of partition in the resolution and indicated that they would reject any other plan of partition.Trahelliven (talk) 11:32, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This sentence is about the same as "The Arabs rejected any form of partition" and I accept it. But It is rather long and I wish it would be shorter. Ykantor (talk) 19:43, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It is not the same: there is a real distinction between the past simple tense and the subjunctive tense. Here it is slightly shortened:-
With a few exceptions, the Arab leaders and governments rejected the plan of partition in the resolution and indicated that they would reject any other plan of partition.Trahelliven (talk) 19:55, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If the "would have" is important in your opinion, it may be concised to: "the Arab leaders (With a few exceptions) said they would reject any plan of partition". BTW I have no intention to change the meaning of the previous sentence, but if it happened, it is because of my limited English. Ykantor (talk) 04:49, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There are two distinct concepts here:-
1 what was done in the past, i.e the rejection of the plan of 29 November 1947; and
To summarize........ the sentence below has been agreed upon by both Ykantor and Trahelliven:
Apart from a few exceptions, the Arab leaders and governments rejected the plan of partition in the resolution and indicated that they would reject any other plan of partition.
I think (and hope) that a slightly shorted sentence is acceptable:"the Arab leaders (With a few exceptions) rejected the U.N partition plan and said that they would reject any other plan of partition. Ykantor (talk) 19:50, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It is more than the leaders; it is the governments as well. They may have written their rejection as well as said it: indicated covers both. With a few exceptions at the beginning is more elegant. It should stand as I drafted it. Trahelliven (talk) 20:17, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
yours "It should stand as I drafted it". On what ground you are able to dictate? Although I have proven my initial sentence, I have compromised a lot, because I am grateful that Keithbob volunteered to deal with this burden. But now you try to dictate every detail, although you have not supported your view at all. It seems that it is important for you to separate the "rejected the U.N partition plan" from the "would reject any other plan of partition" and I accept it, although it make the sentence long and cumbersome, for no real reason. If you want to dictate other details, please find a wp:rs and support your view. Ykantor (talk) 19:59, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have any opinion on the content and sources at this time but purely from the standpoint of the Manual of Style, I would caution against the use of parentheses to qualify a statement per WP:WEASEL. Also in my limited observations, I feel there has been some compromise from all parties in this case and hope that it will continue.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 05:00, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
yours: " against the use of parentheses to qualify a statement per WP:WEASEL". I did not know that there is something wrong with parentheses. I tend to frequently use parentheses. Will it be possible for you to elaborate?
Trahelliven has indeed compromised a lot as well, but his starting point is not supported, while I have quoted plenty of supports. Hence the resulted compromise is not accurate, but as I said, I accept it.
As said, in my opinion, the compromised sentence is long and cumbersome. I would like to use a split version as well, although I do not have any specific plans at the moment. Ykantor (talk) 10:49, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
My thanks to Keithbob. My final word is that the new sentence sums up the section. Every aspect of the sentence is covered by references later on. Repeating those references would be repetitive. Trahelliven (talk) 05:11, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
So it seems we've agreed on this sentence, yes?
Apart from a few exceptions, the Arab leaders and governments rejected the plan of partition in the resolution and indicated that they would reject any other plan of partition.
I agree. As said, The sentence is OK, but since it is cumbersome, I keep the right to use a portion only, where and if it suits the situation, without changing the meaning.
Thanks Ykantor for your patience and willingness to compromise. As you know the purpose of this forum is to facilitate communication and collaboration using a moderator whose aim is to keep the discussion focused and moving forward. However, there is always room for further discussion and further refinement of the article text as time moves forward. As you well know, WP is always being expanded and refined. So nothing is written in stone. As for parentheses, they have valid usage on WP. I was only pointing out that I felt their usage, in this instance, was not appropriate because it created ambiguity and undermined the agreed upon sentence. OK now let's move on to the next thread. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:04, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for sticking my oar in late on in the day, but ... I suspect that a number of things may be being confused: what a specific group of Arab leaders said specifically in response to the outcome of the vote on the Partition resolution, what the public position of Arab leaders on the solution to the Palestine problem was in general, what the private position of various leaders was. In response to the vote, a group of Arab leaders rejected the Partition Plan. In the lead up to the vote, the public position of Arab leaders and representatives was that Palestine shouldn't be partitioned; it's unnecessary to say that "any form" of partition, which presumably refers to the infinite number of ways that a line could be drawn on a map of Palestine, was rejected, it was just partition that was rejected - the Arab position was that, in line with the 1939 White Paper proposals, Palestine should become independent as a unitary state. In private, King Abdullah was in favour of partition (and colluded with the Zionists) and a number of Arab politicians were willing to negotiate. ← ZScarpia21:27, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
to ZScarpia: By saying:"Palestine should become independent as a unitary state", You yourself say indirectly that the Arabs rejected any form of partition. It says (among some more rejected alternatives) that "the infinite number of ways that a line could be drawn on a map of Palestine, was rejected". Anyway, we can continue the discussion in your or mine talk page. Ykantor (talk) 13:09, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
What were the different forms of partition and when were they rejected? Or was it the principle of partition that was rejected? Or the Partition Plan specifically?
What do you see as the difference between saying that Arab leaders supported a unitary state and that Arab leaders opposed partition? What do you see as the difference between saying that the Arab leaders opposed partition and that the Arab leaders opposed all forms of partition?
As far as continuing elsewhere is concerned, if Keithbob tells me that my comments are unwelcome here, I'll clear off to the article talkpage.
Summary: The core of the dispute that we are trying to resolve is a single edit by Trahellivan which removed four citations from the article. During this proceeding several editors have come at various times and offered their comments and insight. As with any WP noticeboard community involvement is welcomed.
Moving along..... the sentence agreed upon by Ykantor and Trahelliven is:
Apart from a few exceptions, the Arab leaders and governments rejected the plan of partition in the resolution and indicated that they would reject any other plan of partition.
It does not include the words "any form of partition" but instead speaks specifically of rejecting the UN resolution and giving an "indication" that future partition plans would also be rejected. I think this is a very good compromise. With that in mind I am going to "hat" this discussion but ZScarpia and others are welcome to participate in the final discussion located at the bottom of this thread. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 14:51, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Part IV
The next item up for discussion is from the same edit by Trahelliven which we have been discussing here in which they removed the citation (ref group=qt name="Lapidot1994p52"/) that supported the text:
The Arabs were against the establishment of an international regime in Jerusalem too.
Ykantor can you quote from the cited source (the UN document that appears inside the book by Lapidot on page 52) as to which part supports the text above?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:27, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think wise to start another point before the first one is closed. It will be a never ending discussion. There are a dozen of equivalent sentences and each time a discussion didn't go to the direction he wanted, Ykantor left the discussion to come back to it several weeks later.
I am eager to advance in both part 3 and part 4. It is very important for me to know what is wrong in my view concerning part 3. In my opinion each of the 5 supports is sufficient by itself to prove the text "rejected any form of partition". Why I am wrong? please.
Concerning the Lapidot quote, I have added the full quote at the 31 Aug 2013 version. To your question: as to which part supports the text above?": "The Arab onslaught described by a United Nations Commission in these terms began in the City of Jerusalem itself. The Arab world had taken up arms, not only against the establishment of a Jewish State, but also with equal fervor and greater success against the establishment of an international regime in Jerusalem"Ykantor (talk) 18:59, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In his edit of 09:34, 1 October 2013 in the Talk file on the Article, in relation to the Lapidot quote, Ykantor referred to the First Special Report to the Security Council: The Problem of Security in Palestine of the UNITED NATIONS PALESTINE COMMISSION dated 16 February 1948.[4] I think he is referring to that. The report does not contain the words, but also with equal fervor and greater success against the establishment of an international regime in Jerusalem"Trahelliven (talk) 21:50, 7 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keithbob: I agree that the book does contain those quotations, but if you go to page 49, you will find that the quotes come from a document Memorandum on the Future of Jerusalem submitted to the U.N. General Assembly by the Delegation of Israel to the U.N., 15 November 1949. The Memorandum is hardly a Reliable Source.
Ykantor:Perhaps you might go to page 49 of Rut Lapidot's book and read the description of the document of which page 52 is part; then tell me why the Memorandum from the Israeli delegation is a Reliable Source. Trahelliven (talk) 19:15, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
to Trahelliven: Please read it again. As I told you, a 1948 document can not cite a 1949 document. Even the Zionist satanic forces can not do that. Ykantor (talk) 20:51, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I see now that that quote is part of a document submitted to the United Nations by the "Delegation of Israel". It would appear to be a primary source that has been republished in a secondary source. If there is continued disagreement about proper usage of this source, I recommend that the issue be taken to WP:RSN where you will find neutral editors who are very experienced and willing to evaluate and discuss potential sources.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 06:38, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The Memorandum is certainly a primary document. It is published in the Selected Documents, purely as a collection of primary source documents on the topic. To my mind being so published does not alter its status or value. Its contents is quoted, however, as if they were in a book written by Rut Lapidot and Moshe Hirsch and they are their considered opinion on the reasons for the failure to solve the Jerusalem question. It is nothing of the sort. It is a document prepared on behalf of the Israeli government, no doubt attempting to persuade the UNGA to take certain actions. At best its evidentiary value is limited to showing that the Jews blamed the Arabs for the failure to solve the Jerusalem question. I am sure that better sources can be found to show that. At the very least, the insertion of the quotation should have made it clear that it was an extract from an Israeli government document. The quotation should not be included in the article. Trahelliven (talk) 08:37, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Trahelliven you are correct in saying that quote from Lupidot source is part of a primary, self published document that has been republished by two "authors" who are listed, in the book, as "editors". At the same time WP:PRIMARY sources have their value and can be used on WP, but with limitations. For example, the may need to attribute themselves in the text instead of speaking in WP's voice and so on. The acceptability of a source, whether it is primary or secondary, often depends on the context in which it is being used. Whether or not this source could/shoud be used in this particular way would be cleared up very quickly at WP:RSN which specializes in these types of questions and disputes.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:13, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Final Discussion of Trahelliven's edit of Sept 29, 2013
I should add that I attempted to delete four (4) quotes at 19:36, 22 October 2013. However I did not do it properly. They were rescued on 19:53, 22 October 2013 AnomieBOT, and 20:04, 22 October 2013 AnomieBOT, but as footnotes. I was not aware of this until today. They should be added to the disputed quotes. Trahelliven (talk) 22:39, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
as edited by Trahelliven at 19:34, 31 August 2013 [6]-
1 Benny Morris (2008). 1948: a history of the first Arab-Israeli war. Yale University Press. p. 67
Where is the evidence that the Arab community as a whole rejected anything, let alone the plan of partition?. Page 70 is irrelevant.
4 Benny Morris (2008). 1948: a history of the first Arab-Israeli war. Yale University Press. p. 61
5 Benny Morris (2008). 1948: a history of the first Arab-Israeli war. Yale University Press. p. 50
6 UNITED NATIONS CONCILIATION COMMISSION FOR PALESTINE: The Future of Arab Palestine and the Question of Partition: (Working paper prepared by the Secretariat): 39 July 1949 [7]
The quote says, rejected the United Nations Partition Plan : the Article generalises to, opposed any form of partition.
7 Benny Morris (2008). 1948: a history of the first Arab-Israeli war. Yale University Press. pp. 50, 66, 67, 72
8 Rut Lapidot; Moshe Hirsch (1994). The Jerusalem Question and Its Resolution: Selected Documents. Martinus Nijhoff Publishers. p. 52
Currently being discussed.
as edited by 162.206.34.218 at 00:49, 18 October 2013 [8]-
5 Jack Brian Bloom (2005). Out of Step: Life-story of a Politician : Politics and Religion in a World at War. Jack Bloom. p. 99
Now that I'm looking at this a bit closer I see that the edits being discussed above, were made on Oct 22 and seem to be outside the scope of this case which was filed on Oct. 16, 2013. Unless these are the same quotes that Ykantor described in the Dispute Overview when he/she said: deleted quotes because they partially support the article, and does not support it fully.User:Ykantor, can you clarify please?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:57, 17 November 2013 (UTC)-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:01, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This diff page of 29 Sep 2013, is the one that started the dispute, where Trahelliven has unjustifiably deleted the 4 quotes.
What could be Trahelliven reason to insist with the same mistake, although I have told him few times he should read those Lapidot couple of pages, and see for himself and stop talking about the irrelevant 1949 memo?
I am not sure about yours:"ZScarpia and others are welcome to participate in the final discussion located at the bottom of this thread.". Should I open a subsection and continue to discuss with him the "any form of partition"? I guess he is holding for my reply. Ykantor (talk) 17:12, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
My interpretation is that the the discussion in the section I commented in is closed, so that any continuation of it involving me would happen back at the talkpage. ← ZScarpia18:29, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is the final thread for this case (though I will likely create subsections for each quote to be discussed) and the community members, including ZScarpia, are welcome to participate. However, the discussion in Part IV has been closed with a successful consensus between the two listed parties in this case (Ykantor and Trahelliven). So just as ZScarpia has stated, discussion about items related to that closed discussion and consensus, should take place on the article talk page rather than here. We have to maintain our focus in this case, so that we can continue to make progress. Thank you for your understanding.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:40, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ykantor, thank you for clarifying that the current discussion concerns the sameSept 29, 2013 edit by Trahelliven that we have been discussing previously. We have already discussed the four sources that were removed. What I see left in that edit for discussion is:
1) Removal of this content and corresponding citations:
Arab leaders threatened the Jewish population of Palestine, speaking of "driving the Jews into the sea" and ridding Palestine "of the Zionist Plague".ref group=qt name="morris2008p50", ref group=qt name="morris2008p61", ref>Benny Morris, 1948: A History of the First Arab-Israeli War, Yale University Press, 2008</ref
2) Removal of this citation which contained an extensive quote taken from the source:
ref name="Lapidot1994p52">Rut Lapidot; Moshe Hirsch (1994). The Jerusalem Question and Its Resolution: Selected Documents. Martinus Nijhoff Publishers. p. 52. ISBN 978-0-7923-2893-3. Retrieved 31 August 2013. The [Partition Plan was overthrown by Arab violence on the field of battle, accompanied by unanimous and concerted Arab opposition in the General Assembly .... In April, 1948, the United Nations Palestine Commission, reporting its inability to carry out any part of the Plan, including the Jerusalem Statute, without large international forces, wrote: Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein. Armed Arab bands from neighboring Arab States..., together with local Arab forces, are defeating the purposes of the Resolution by acts of violence." The Arab onslaught described by a United Nations Commission in these terms began in the City of Jerusalem itself. The Arab world had taken up arms, not only against the establishment of a Jewish State, but also with equal fervor and greater success against the establishment of an international regime in Jerusalem. In the Trusteeship Council the Representative of Iraq said: It is my duty to show that the Plan for the City of Jerusalem is illegal... the people of Jerusalem who are not sacred should not incur political punishment because their City is holy. Neither the Iraqi Government nor other Arab States arc prepared to enter into the details or to participate in the discussion of the Plan.</ref
Keithbob: I am lost on which matters you intend to continue in the discussion. (Lapidot is going to another place.) The others listed above,1, 4, 5, 6, 7,: 5, 7 - are they all now to be discussed? Trahelliven (talk) 20:29, 17 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
to Keithbob: That's right. Morris 2008 p.67 was removed as well.--unsigned comment
Hi Trahelliven, Sorry for the confusion. When Ykantor filed this case they said:
Dispute overview:Dear volunteer, please have a look at this issue.I have simplified the dispute to quotations deletion only, in order to attract a volunteer here. My Past DRNs has expired without solution, so I am eager to have a at least this one solved. The other disputant may reply with other problems as well, but I prefer one solved limited issue rather than a big issue with no solution. Ykantor (talk) 09:37, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
The embedded link they provided goes to a talk page thread that objects to this edit. So what we are doing is going through all of the changes contained in that edit. The last two items to be discussed in that edit are the two items I've listed above. Let's discuss and resolve those and then we can make a decision about the other quotes.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:20, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Final Discussion on Trahelliven's edit of Sept 29, 2013 (continued) Section 1
Trahelliven, your edit removed this content and corresponding citations which you have specified in your list in the prior section as #4 and #5:
Arab leaders threatened the Jewish population of Palestine, speaking of "driving the Jews into the sea" and ridding Palestine "of the Zionist Plague".ref group=qt name="morris2008p50", ref group=qt name="morris2008p61", ref>Benny Morris, 1948: A History of the First Arab-Israeli War, Yale University Press, 2008</ref
To Keithbob: some background-The deleted statement is quoted from Morris 2008 p. 396. The source text is:"The Arab war aim, in both stages of the hostilities, was, at a minimum, to abort the emergence of a Jewish state or to destroy it at inception. The Arab states hoped to accomplish this by conquering all or large parts of the territory allotted to the Jews by the United Nations.And some Arab leaders spoke of driving the Jews into the sea(19) and ridding Palestine “of the Zionist plague.”(20)"
1 What the origin of the words, The Arab reaction was just as predictable? In any event, it is incomplete, As predictable as what?. Further, it seems to assume that all Arab leaders were of the one mind.
2 What Arab leaders?
3 Jamal Husseini has been generalised to They.
4 Blood flowing in the Middle East could have been caused by lots of things.
5 I could not find a reference for the statement about the Zionist Plague.
6 driving the Jews into does not have a reference.
7 Quote 5 had no relevance to the paragraph, Arab leaders threatened the Jewish population of Palestine, speaking of "driving the Jews into the sea" and ridding Palestine "of the Zionist Plague".[qt 5][qt 4][50].
8 A general comment: linking the three references to the one paragraph causes confusion.
9 You should note the talk page on the 1948 Arab-Israeli War under the heading The Arab League as a whole . It deals with the question of wild statements by various Arab leaders.Trahelliven (talk) 22:32, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You might note that a debate has started on the Talk page of the Article about pressure being put on delegates voting on the Resolution[10]. Is Morris a Reliable Source? Trahelliven (talk) 16:41, 19 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Morris is an academic and the book is published by a noted academic press. So from what I know of the book, it appears to be a valid secondary source. Now just to review... the deleted text was:
Arab leaders threatened the Jewish population of Palestine, speaking of "driving the Jews into the sea" and ridding Palestine "of the Zionist Plague".
and the citations were:
ref group=qt name="morris2008p50",
ref group=qt name="morris2008p61",
ref>Benny Morris, 1948: A History of the First Arab-Israeli War, Yale University Press, 2008</ref
I could not find the quotes "driving the Jews into the sea" or ridding Palestine "of the Zionist Plague" on pages 50 or 61 as the citations specified, but now Ykantor is saying that on page 396 (which can be seen here) it says: And some Arab leaders spoke of driving the Jews into the sea and ridding Palestine “of the Zionist plague.”
One more source: cite book|author1=Jacob Neusner|author2=Bruce D. Chilton|author3=R. E. Tully|title=Just War in Religion and Politics|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=iAy5jsBAF0oC&pg=PA309%7Cdate=18 April 2013|publisher=University Press of America|isbn=978-0-7618-6094-5|pages=309|quote=" ”Arab leaders threatened ...They spoke of driving the Jews into the sea and ridding Palestine “of the Zionist plague.”.
The relevant chapter (14) in Just War in Religion and Politics was written by three persons from the Genocide Prevention Program from the Hebrew University- Haddasah School of Public Health and Community Medicine.
1 The very title of their institution suggests lack of impartiality.
2 They mention Arab atrocities, but not Jewish atrocities during the 1948 War.
3 They were not mathematicians. 1% is one in a hundred, not one in one thousand. What were there expertise?
5 Like many of these remarks, there is lack of detail as to the circumstances in which they were said, a point I have previously made,[11], If you enter coffee in the Find function, relevant discussion can be found in the Talk page of the Article. Trahelliven (talk) 17:51, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The writer of the letter dated 19 April 2009 from the Head of the Genocide Prevention Program at Hebrew University-Hadassah School of Public Health and Community Medicine and Associate Director, Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide, Jerusalem and Head of World Genocide Situation Room, Elihu D. Richter, MD MPH may be an expert on his subject but he is certainly neither a lawyer nor an historian. In the letter he uses the following words to describe the establishment of Israel:-
Since its establishment in 1948 BY THE UN, Israel, though always reluctant to use force, has always.... The UN established nothing. All it did in resolution 181(II) was to make a series of ineffective recommendations. Israel was established by the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel in the afternoon of 14 May 1948 and the subsequent 1948 Arab-Israeli War. I put in a link to the letter but, when I tried to save the edit, I got the following message:-
Your edit was not saved because it contains a new external link to a site registered on Wikipedia's blacklist..
to Trahelliven: As I have told you few times, you (and all editors) have to obey Wikipedia rules. According to the rules, you can not demand that an RS should justify its content. If you do not like an RS sentence, you either find another RS to your taste and add it to the article, or prove that the RS has a mistake. You can verify it at the help desk. BTW we already discussed in the talk page "Morris 2008, p. 187 ." Azzam told Kirkbride:...we will sweep them[the Jews] into the sea" . Ykantor (talk) 07:16, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Anyway, you may look at this reply: just being told:"if there is relevant and reliably sourced content, it may be entered into the article. If others claim it is WP:UNDUE because there are other points of view, then they will need to (and it should be very easy for them to) present reliable sources showing these other points of view. The article then incorporates these other sources and then all of the major points of view are then be presented. Claims that one reliable source's view is not representative without providing sources to show the existence of other views do not stand up".
Ykantor:thank you for the reference to the relevant rule.
1 As a preliminary point, referring to the rules is not always helpful. If you know that there is a particular rule covering the situation, it would helpful to indicate where the rule can be found. Apart from anything else, this would relieve the Help Desk of unnecessary work.
2 The key phrase is reliably sourced. I would submit that a statement by an otherwise Reliable Source may be queried, if on it face, it is vague, questionable and/or does not itself give a source. The phrase used is not a Reliable Source, but reliably sourced. Take Edward Alexander who apparently wrote, "the arab world unanimously rejected it.",(presumably meaning the plan of partition). Even if Edward Alexamder is otherwise a Reliable Source, that statement is clearly an exaggeration and unverifiable: its inclusion in an article, even if if written by Morris, would be inappropriate. Trahelliven (talk) 18:08, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
to Trahelliven: I suggested the help desk since it is an objective place to ask for the rules. I am not so knowledgeable about the rules, and it is better to ask the best advisers there. To your claim: You want to apply common sense whether to accept a wp:rs, but , to my knowledge this application of common sense is called wp:or and it is forbidden. Again, it is better to ask the help desk, in case I am mistaken. You can also find a wp:rs with whom you agree, and cite him, as an opposed view to Morris view. Ykantor (talk) 19:24, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It is quite clear that Ykantor and I differ on how Wikipedia works or should work. Until someone, at the very least, gives me the identity of these leaders so that we can start by saying, X and Y threatened, I will not agree to the inclusion of the quotation. Trahelliven (talk) 20:18, 21 November 2013 (UTC) Trahelliven (talk) 23:24, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Why do not you verify the rules with the help desk ? You may receive a reply within the same day
Morris 2008 p. 396 references:
ref. 19. The phrase—“to drive the Jews in Palestine into the sea”—was reportedly used, for example, by gIzzedin Shawa, a representative of the AHC in London, in a conversation with an American diplomat (see Gallman, London, to secretary of state, 21 January 1948, USNA, box 5, Jerusalem Consulate General, Classified Records 1948, 800–Palestine). In his memoirs, Kirkbride quoted Arab League secretarygeneral gAzzam saying to him, just before the invasion: “We will sweep them into the sea” (Kirkbride, From the Wings, 24).
ref. 20. Sam Souki, UP, quoting al-Qawuqji speaking to his troops, undated but from February or March 1948, CZA S25-8996.
Concerning the leaders, you are already familiar with the article and the talk page:
p. 187 Shukri al-Quwatli [ the Syrian president] told his people:"We shall eradicate Zionism".
p. 409 Haj Amin al-Husseini said in March 1948 to an interviewer in a Jaffa daily "Al Sarih" that the Arabs did not intend merely to prevent partition but "would continue fighting until the Zionists were Annihilated"
p. 70, '"On 24 November the head of the Egyptian delegation to the General # Assembly, Muhammad Hussein Heykal, said that “the lives of 1,000,000 Jews in Moslem countries would be jeopardized by the establishment of a Jewish state"
p. 61,"mid-August 1947, Fawzi al-Qawuqji—soon to be named the head of the Arab League’s volunteer army in Palestine, the Arab Liberation Army (ALA)—threatened that, should the vote go the wrong way, “we will have to initiate total war. We will murder, wreck and ruin everything standing in our way, be it English, American or Jewish.”
p. 50 Jamal Husseini promised, “The blood will flow like rivers in the Middle East”.
p. 412 Iraq’s prime minister Nuri al-Said told British diplomats that if the United Nations solution was not “satisfactory”, “severe measures should [would?] be taken against all Jews in Arab countries".
Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Said, said: “We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in". (You deleted the source. I have yet to re find it)
Shulewitz p.86 "Iraq formally and overtly identified Itself with the 1947 threats of Heykal Pasha a mere four days later. Iraq’s Foreign Minister, Fadel Jamall, made the following statement: The masses in the Arab world cannot be restrained. The Arab—Jewish relationship in the Arab world will greatly deteriorate. There are more Jews in the Arab world outside Palestine than there are in Palestine. …any injustice imposed upon the Arabs of Palestine will disturb the harmony among Jews and non-Jews in Iraq: It will breed Interreliglous prejudice and hatred." (one more source: url = http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/93DCDF1CBC3F2C6685256CF3005723F2%7C accessdate = 2013-10-15|title=U.N General Assembly ,A/PV.126,28 November 1947,discussion on the Palestinian question)
Shulewitz p.84 "on 24 November 1947 Heykal Pasha…[said in the U.N] :"The proposed solution might endanger a million Jews living in the Muslim countries. Partition of Palestine might create in those countries an Antisemitism even more difficult to root out than the antisemitism which the Allies tried to eradicate in Germany...it might be responsible for very grave disorders and for the massacre of a large number of Jews"
U.N Ad Hoc comitee on Palestine ,press release GS/PAL/83, 24 November 1947,debate on alternative plan for partition of Palestine, p. 3, retrieved 2013-10-15, Heykal Pasha…[said in the U.N] "if the U.N decide to amputate a part of Palestine in order to establish a Jewish state, no force on earth could prevent blood from flowing there…Moreover…no force on earth can confine it to the borders of Palestine itself…Jewish blood will necessarily be shed elsewhere in the Arab world… to place in certain and serious danger a million Jews…Mahmud Bey Fawzi (Egypt) …imposed partition was sure to result in bloodshed in Palestine and in the rest of the Arab world"
I hope you read the whole article on that quotation. It can be read two ways: one way is that it says a martyrdom of enormous proportions, equal to the martyrdom of Arabs under the Crusaders and Mongols, another that, as 13,000 web sites try to make out (like you) it was a genocidal threat against Jews. The record of Azzam's life shows that he had absolutely no genocidal mentality: to the contrary. The second point is that you can argue for sticking as much hot air from the 'Arab' hot balloon as long as you agree that such inflammatory and, in this context, POV-pushing hysterics, is rounded off with the impeccably sourced comment that, after November, the Jews were silent, and prepared for war: the 'Arabs' shot off their mouths with apocalyptic rhetoric, and did almost anothing in terms of military preparation. That averts the reader to the problem with these quotes - i.e., no one ever acted on them. They brandished them as hollow threats they themselves did not believe, perhaps in the hope that striking fear of possible consequences would avert the catastrophe (WP:OR. but it is well known). One writes military articles in terms of logistics, planning, events that happened, strategies, not in terms of vapid and outrageous declarations (though they had a publicitarian function in manoeuvering the masses, and should be noted). As you are framing the line-up of horror quotes, the Yishuv was under a genocidal threat. It is still part and parcel for 60 years to explain everything in terms of 'existential threats'. The tradition endures. The Yishuv was motivated by the memory of the Holocaust, which was a European achievement, not an Arab intention, for which there is no concrete evidence. Nishidani (talk) 15:44, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Keithbob is naturally unhappy with us discussing it here. May we continue in Azzam's quotation talk page? . Anyway, just 2 points:
Nowadays it is clear that the threats were indeed hollow, but at the time it was taken seriously. BTW it happened again just before the 1967 war.
Summary: This appears to be a complicated issue involving many sources and it does not appear likely that it will be resolved in the near term. Trahelliven has indicated that he/she cannot find any ground for compromise on this point so I do not see the purpose for any further discussion here at DRN. I am therefore referring the issue back to the article talk page where it can be discussed at length amongst all the editors who are active on the article. Participants may feel free to cut and paste things they have quoted or referenced here, in this discussion, and forward them to the new talk page discussion as needed rather than reassembling the same information. Now we will move on to the final thread of this case after which I will close this case, which has been open for more than three weeks already and comprises more than 10,000 words of discussion.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:22, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am sorry that this deleted sentence case is left aside. The sentence is well supported, it is not mine, and was in the article for about 2 years ( or more) and Trahelliven deleted it with no support at all. What else could be done to rectify the situation? Ykantor (talk) 20:12, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Final Discussion on Trahelliven's edit of Sept 29, 2013 (continued) Section 2
This is the final thread and issue in this DRN. It concerns the last change that Trahelliven made in this edit, which is the subject of this case. Trahelliven removed this citation which contained an extensive quote taken from the source (see below):
ref name="Lapidot1994p52">Rut Lapidot; Moshe Hirsch (1994). The Jerusalem Question and Its Resolution: Selected Documents. Martinus Nijhoff Publishers. p. 52. ISBN 978-0-7923-2893-3. Retrieved 31 August 2013. The [Partition Plan was overthrown by Arab violence on the field of battle, accompanied by unanimous and concerted Arab opposition in the General Assembly .... In April, 1948, the United Nations Palestine Commission, reporting its inability to carry out any part of the Plan, including the Jerusalem Statute, without large international forces, wrote: Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein. Armed Arab bands from neighboring Arab States..., together with local Arab forces, are defeating the purposes of the Resolution by acts of violence." The Arab onslaught described by a United Nations Commission in these terms began in the City of Jerusalem itself. The Arab world had taken up arms, not only against the establishment of a Jewish State, but also with equal fervor and greater success against the establishment of an international regime in Jerusalem. In the Trusteeship Council the Representative of Iraq said: It is my duty to show that the Plan for the City of Jerusalem is illegal... the people of Jerusalem who are not sacred should not incur political punishment because their City is holy. Neither the Iraqi Government nor other Arab States arc prepared to enter into the details or to participate in the discussion of the Plan.</ref
Without necessarily agreeing to its inclusion, I shall redraft the quotation as perhaps it should have been originally drafted:-
Memorandum on the Future of Jerusalem submitted to the U.N. General Assembly by the Delegation of Israel to the U.N., 15 November 1949: pages 51 and 52, paragraph 10:-
"10...The (Partition) Plan was overthrown by Arab violence on the field of battle, accompanied by unanimous and concerted Arab opposition in the General Assembly and the Trusteeship Council. In April 1948 (in fact 16 February 1948), the United Nations Palestine Commission, reporting its inability to carry out any part of the Plan, including the Jerusalem Statute, without large international forces, wrote:
"Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein.[12].... Armed Arab bands from neighboring Arab States..., together with local Arab forces, are defeating the purposes of the Resolution by acts of violence.”
The Arab onslaught described by a United Nations Commission in these terms began in the City of Jerusalem itself. The Arab world had taken up arms, not only against the establishment of a Jewish State, but also with equal fervor and greater success against the establishment of an international regime in Jerusalem. In the Trusteeship Council the Representative of Iraq said:
"It is my duty to show that the Plan for the City of Jerusalem is illegal... the people of Jerusalem who are not sacred should not incur political punishment because their City is holy. Neither the Iraqi Government nor other Arab States arc prepared to enter into the details or to participate in the discussion of the Plan.".
I attempted to find a reference for the report of the April 1948 of the United Nations Palestine Commission and for the address in the Trusteeship Council by the Representative of Iraq, but without success.
Trahelliven can you please tell us what is/was your objection to this source and its embedded quote?
The source itself was written by Israeli government officials and is therefore hardly RS. The two embedded quotes stand or fall with the source. The source falls; therefore the two embedded quotes fall with it. Trahelliven (talk) 02:13, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
to Trahelliven: How many times can you repeat the same error, although I told you few times that it is a mistake?
your talk about the Nov 1949 report, while the one of article references was the 16 February 1948 report:"Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein".[1]
Please stop saying that this sentence source is an Israeli document, if you can not prove it. We know that he sentence's source is the the 16 February 1948 U.N report.
UNITED NATIONS General Assembly A/544 5 May 1948 :"The representative of the Arab Higher Committee declared that his people were opposed to the introduction of any foreign police or troops into Jerusalem or the placing of Jerusalem under Trusteeship....The representatives of Australia and of the Jewish Agency considered that the proper course was to adopt the draft Statute for Jerusalem and as an emergency measure bring into force such portions of it as were applicable in the circumstances. This wasnot acceptable to the Arab Higher Committee for the reason that this would amount to a total or partial implementation of the partition scheme...the representative of the Arab Higher Committee objected on political grounds to any suggestion that the Special Municipal Commissioner should be entrusted with the function of maintaining law and order
"Mahmoud Bey FAWZI (Egypt) ...The idea of establishing a trusteeship system for Jerusalem was contrary to the right of self-determination to which the inhabitants of the Holy City were as much entitled"..."Mr. EL-KHOURI (Syria) said...would the trusteeship agreement submitted to the General Assembly be concluded, in accordance with Article 79, by the States directly concerned, including the Mandatory Power? The answer was in the negative, since the United Kingdom andthe States directly concerned were opposed to that regime"
"Mr. EL-ERIAN (Yemen) reminded the Assembly that as Palestine remained under British Mandate for a few minutes longer, Article 79 of the Charter was the one that applied. As the Iraqi representative had already pointed out, the draft before the General Assembly was not in conformity with the provisions of that Article; it was difficult to understand how the United States representative, who supported the draft, could also have stated, as he had at the 140th meeting of the First Committee, that "any proposal must be based upon the authority of the Charter..."
The representative of Yemen associated himself with the Egyptian representative's remarks concerning the right of self-determination of the people of Jerusalem, a right which was provided for in the Charter. His delegation would vote against the draft resolution.
U N I T E D N A T I O N S General Assembly Distr. UNRESTRICTED A/532 10 April 1948 ORIGINAL: ENGLISH REPORT OF THE UNITED NATIONS PALESTINE COMMISSION :"ARAB RESISTANCE: The Arab Higher Committee has continued to oppose the resolution of the Assembly and has refused to co-operate with the Commission. Opposition to the resolution of 29 November 1947 has taken the form of armed resistance. The extensiveness of the frontiers of Palestine with the neighboring Arab States and the apparent ease with which they may be crossed, even when British troops are still in the country, have facilitated such resistance by making available increasing numbers of arms and men. This factor has greatly added to the difficulty of implementing the resolution of the Assembly. It is not only the Arab State, envisaged in the resolution, which cannot now be constituted according to the Plan, but the establishment of the Jewish State and of the International Regime for the City of Jerusalem are also obstructed by the Arab resistance. Arab opposition to the Plan of the Assembly has taken the form of organized efforts by strong Arab elements, both inside and outside of Palestine, to prevent its implementation and to thwart its objectives by threats and acts of violence, including repeated armed incursions into Palestinian territory. The Commission had had to report to the Security Council that “powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein”."Ykantor (talk) 12:13, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Summary-- Trahelliven has said that the reason they removed the source, in the edit that has been the focus of this case, is because "The source itself was written by Israeli government officials and is therefore hardly RS". This comment refers to the fact that the source in question, a book edited by Lipidot and Hirsch, reprints and quotes various primary documents written by individual groups or organizations. This is the crux of the dispute regarding the removal of the citation with its embedded quote. Obviously there are other issues that are of concern here and which are the subject of disagreement (as seen above) but they are secondary to the issue of: Is this source considered by the WP community to be reliable? As I've mentioned before the best forum in which to get feedback and clarity from the community on RS's is at WP:RSN. So again I am referring this issue to that venue which specializes in sources, their validity and appropriate usage. With that, I am now closing this case.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 14:47, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment
This discussion belongs on the article talk page
Edit summary introducing the RS above ('Gelber; The Arabs stubbornly repudiated any compromise that provided for a Jewish state, no matter what its borders were to be')
Ykantor's background principle
'This article (together with other Arab- Israel conflict articles), has a lot of built in anti Israeli propaganda. It looks like in some aspects , it is re-writing the history .(e.g. trying to thwart Arab leaders public declarations concerning driving the Jews to the sea, promising a bloodshed etc.). It is very frustrating.'
The specific textual issue must be understood in the light of the larger background, both of what Ykantor is pursuing in his edits, and his selective use of documents to write into the narrative a non-neutral partisan 'truth' which he thinks must override the 'mistakes' in the other POV, the Arab version.(By the way Paul Bogdanor above is not RS for any serious historical discussions.)
Take one example, one of the several variations of the theme he cites above:-
the jewish community under british mandate overwhelmingly accepted the plan, while the arab world unanimously rejected it.
He backs that up with gruesome quotes "On 24 November the head of the Egyptian delegation to the General Assembly, Muhammad Hussein Heykal, said that “the lives of 1,000,000 Jews in Moslem countries would be jeopardized by the establishment of a Jewish state". See also the Azzam Pasha quotation (and compare the point made re Arab rhetoric vs absolute lack of any intention of acting on it in Eliezer's comment below).
Well, yes true. All your sources say that, using Arabs and Jews, which is of course wholly inappropriate (the Palestinians were never consulted, for one thing, in any formal sense). But it cannot be introduced into the text as a narrative truth. It must be contextualized neutrally to show that it is a POV, even if a fact. Many sources will also tell you that there are many ways to read that 'fact' in the light of another fact:'For copious evidence that, even in the absence of Arab aggression, the Zionist leadership never intended to respect the 1947 Partition Resolution borders, cf. Ben-Eliezer Making pp.144, 150-1.(Norman Finkelstein, Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict, Verso 2003 p.201 n.21)
Uri-Ben Eliezer, The Making of Israeli Militarism, Bloomington 1998 pp.150-1 reads:
Even if the Jewish leadership accepted ostensibly the partition resolution, in truth it did not think for a minute of leaving the establishment of the state and the demarcation of its borders in the hands of the United States and the Great Powers. .. The true intention was disclosed in various forums. Thus Ben-Gurion promised the Histadrut Actions Committee in early December 1947:"There are no final arrangements in history, there are no eternal borders, and there are no ultimate political claiums. Changes and transformations will still occur in the world." A week later, at a meeting of the Mapai Secretariat, Ben-Gurion said he agreed with the complains being voice in his party that the partition plan was a setback to the aspirations of the Zionist movement and that the proposed borders were unsound politically and militarily. He also assured his listeners that the boundaries of Jewish independence were not final. The importance of these statements is that they anticipated any substantial confrontation with the Palestinians. They were intended to prepare the ground for the possible use of military force as a means to obtain control over the whole Land of Israel and to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state in any part of that territory.
Perhaps the major characteristic of the period is that its reality was determined by the military modes of operation which had been forged through the decade. It was not policy that determined the military operations but the opposite: those modes gradually became the policy.A first hint of this was apparent at the beginning of the war. The Arabs objected vociferously to the partition plan and threatened to take military action to block its implementation. In practice, however, they made hardly any preparations, and certainly took no actions to realize their threat. The Jews, in contrast, made no declarations about war and even said that they were willing to accept partition, but in practice they began to prepare, energetically and comprehensively, to prevent the resolution's application.'
Anyone neutral party measuring your several sources against this will immediately appreciate that Ben-Eliezer's ostensibly makes the meme about 'overwhelming' Jewish endorsement and 'unanimous Arab rejection' somewhat simplistic. The good guys are for the UN Plan, or a compromise, the bad guys are 'unanimous' in their rejection. In Ben-Eliezer's contextualization, the Jewish approval of the plan was tactical, and there was no intention of honouring the borders established there; to the contrary, military preparations foresaw a conflict, and the aim was to invade areas beyond those borders, and to deny the Arabs, who in the plan were accorded territory, any land.The Arab leadership's rejection was unanimous, threats were made, but no serious plans were made to follow them up.
This is the problem with the edits he is making successively. The only way out is to get him to understand that POVs have to be cancelled out in the narrative, by showing, (and it is extremely difficult), how RS treat the various positions. Simplistic memes consisting of (a) the Jews accepted the UN Plan, the Arabs opposed it and (b) when the State of Israel was declared, 5 Arab armies invaded Israel is radical POV pushing (that meme is not consonant with a strict topological reading of the conflict's outbreak). Sources do say that, but they are repeating an Isrelocentric perspective. Nishidani (talk) 22:59, 29 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nishidani's thesis is supported by the demographics of the Partition. I cannot see how you could have a Jewish state where 45% of the population was Arab. Of course that would be fixed when the Holocaust survivors and those living in the neighbouring Arab countries started to arrive.
Where would they all go? Easy! Into homes and land vacated by departing Arabs [13] - THE ETHNIC CLEANSING
Well, not so much mythesis, but the kind of perspective missing when one simply adopts a phrase 'rejection'/'acceptance' with an undertone of one side's compliance with the UN deliberation and the other's stubborn defiance. The point also it, 'Israel' was not invaded, and the Arab armies basically took up positions in the land assigned the Palestinians. You can tilt anything anyway with selective use of sources. Pappe is not acceptable (personal sympathy for him and his work apart) on this page, as Karsh from the other side isn't. We need mainstream historical accounts and specialists.Nishidani (talk) 07:59, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to reply, but not here at the DRN space. Will it be possible for you to continue at your (or mine) talk page? BTW Once we look at facts (and not talk or even RS interpretation) you will see for yourself. Ykantor (talk) 10:23, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I prefer to make notes here. It is true that Jewish leaders thoroughly approved the UN resolution and their Arab counterparts rejected it, for the simple reason that the PP assigned 56% of a land that had been overwhelmingly 'Arab' to a recent 30-33% immigrant minority, while giving the indigenous people who were about 66% 44% of the land. So a sentence that makes the unanimous yes by Jews, and unanimous no by Arab formulation (a cogged rhetorical meme using one of many facts) requires contextualization to avoid the subtextual implication that one of the two sides was ultramontane or irrationa. It was absolutely rational for the Arab leadership to reject the plan - no plebiscite had taken place, no consideration of local feelings taken into account, the best agricultural land, overwhelmingly registered under Arab title, fell, by imperial decree, into immigrant hands. That complexity is one reason why singling out edit conflicts one at a time with now me, now Trahellivan, now Pluto, now Zero ignores the issue of narrative NPOV. It is paragraphs that have to be crafted, with scrupulous balance to the perspectives of both sides, and your procedure systematically ignores this by its patchy, sentence by sentence drift where you successively push for an Israelocentric narrative slant. When you speak of 'facts' (as in the hasbara 'fact sheets', you should remind yourself of the 12th proposition of ch.1. of Ludwig Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus:'For the totality of facts determines what is the case, (and also whatever is not the case).'
Since you come to DRN every other week with someone, it is best to iron out this problem once and for all here, rather than exhausting everyone piecemeal. Nishidani (talk) 14:04, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Menahem Begin who was an important Jewish Leader, rejected the Partition Plan (see Menachem Begin, The Revolt',, 1978, p. 412.)
Abdullah I of Jordan, who was maybe the most important Arab leader, was very satisfied of the Partition Plan even if he was sometimes ambigous on the question (see Benny Morris, The Road to Jerusalem: Glubb Pasha, Palestine and the Jews, 2003, chapter 4.)
The first opposed to it. The second one didn't oppose to it, on the contrary. So, per WP:NPOV, etc. But Ykantor is perfectly aware of all this. Pluto2012 (talk) 14:28, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion belongs on the article talk page not here at DRN. Please continue it there (you may cut and past this portion of the discussion there if you wish) Thank you. -- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:25, 30 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Final summary and closing comments
This was a long case with active discussion occurring since October 29th. I believe that all parties participated in good faith and that significant progress was made. The two named parties in the case, Ykantor and Trahelliven, found common ground on some issues and other issues were referred to what I felt were, more appropriate forums.
At the end of the section labeled Part II, the named parties agreed that they would return to the "June 14 version" of the disputed section (pending approval of other editors active on the article) and continue discussion regarding further changes and refinements on the article talk page.
At the end of the section labeled Part III the named parties agreed to a compromise regarding the wording of a specific sentence.
In the section labeled Part IV the named parties did not agree on the validity of a source and its usage in the article and the issue was referred to WP:RSN
In Final Discussion on Trahelliven's edit of Sept 29, 2013 (continued) Section 1 there was discussion by multiple parties regarding several sources and how they should be applied to the article with no common ground emerging, so the issue was referred back to the article talk page.
In Final Discussion on Trahelliven's edit of Sept 29, 2013 (continued) Section 2 there was a dispute over the validity and application of a specific source and that issue was referred to WP:RSN.
As in any dispute it is often the case some or all parties may not be completely satisfied with the outcome. Please keep in mind that DRN "is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution and get assistance to the right place; request for comment, conduct RFC, mediation or other noticeboard, if involving other issues" and that its participants are volunteers attempting to find common ground and compromise in content disputes in a dedicated setting. I felt that all editors participated in good faith and I commend them for their willingness to discuss and find compromise wherever possible. There were some initial problems with editors making derogatory comments about other editors however, after some reminders this became less. I recommend that in future dispute resolution processes, whether here or at other venues, that all parties behave civilly and avoid filing cases simultaneously in other venues, whether the are related to content or behavior, as this can poison good faith discussions and create an unsettled and unproductive atmosphere. I also recommend that, moving forward, the parties take advantage of other dispute resolution forums such as WP:RSN, WP:RfC and WP:Mediation. Thank you and good luck! -- — Keithbob • Talk • 15:31, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
to Keithbob: I am grateful that you took over this dispute, and continued till the end. As you said, I would like to have slightly better results (in my opinion) , but it is always much better to solve the dispute rather than wining in all fronts. I feel that I have to apologize because I predicted a short and straight forward process, but eventually it was not short at all. I am sorry. Thank you. Ykantor (talk) 16:09, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Edit war involving an assertion added which is factually untrue, 'supported' by a cite which in fact disporves the assertion. The editor responsible refuses to accept correction, has remained obdurate in Discussion, and continually reverts corrections- all in pursuit of a manifest POV.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
Multiple entries on Talk
How do you think we can help?
Observe that based on the available facts, including the very citation included by DamWiki01 in 'support', the statement of alleged fact is untrue. Propose wording for section consistent with facts.
Summary of dispute by Damwiki1
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
It is actually Damwiki1 and the user name, above, is incorrect. Solicitr has engaged in bullying and abusive behaviour to try and force edits into this and the article on Armoured flight decks. As you can read for yourself here: Talk:Flight_deck#Latest_revision:_capacity_comparison, here: Talk:Flight_deck#Armored_Deck_Questions, here:Talk:Armoured_flight_deck#NPOV and here Talk:Armoured_flight_deck#Regarding_Unbalanced_Opinion_on_Photos Solicitr consistently refuses to engage in reasoned dialogue and often presents "facts" which even the most cursory research shows to be untrue. When I ask him to provide sources he is unable to do so. The dispute seems to be that he is unwilling to accept that USN aircraft carriers used permanent deck parks (about 1/2 of the aircraft carried where in the below decks hangar and about 1/2 were parked permanently on deck), whereas the RN did not use permanent deck parks until 1943, and this accounts for most of the difference in the aircraft capacity between the 23000 ton RN armoured flight deck carriers and 27500 ton USN Essex class carriers. I have sourced my edits, but Solicitr has not provided any to support his contention and he has removed my sources from the article which clearly show that with a deck park, the aircraft capacity of an Essex class carrier would be about 100 aircraft versus about 50 for an RN Implacable class carrier without a deck park, but with a deck park the Implacable class carried up to 81 aircraft, which removes most of the disparity between the ships, when the larger displacement of Essex is taken into account. I have shown that I have been willing to engage in meaningful dialogue with Solicitr but he has not reciprocated. I have put a tremendous amount of effort into my research to further Wikipedia and my edits are always fully sourced to high quality sources. I think the article should be reverted to it's status prior to Solicitr's edits and he should not be permitted to further edit this article.Damwiki1 (talk) 08:34, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Summary of dispute by BilCat
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I'm not "involved" here, and don't wish to be. I made one revert with a plea for discussion yesterday. Today, I made a 3RR warning, and added a note on the talk page for the discussion to continue, and that I saw no cause for Solicitr's reverts. That's all. - BilCat (talk) 21:09, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Question - Can I please hear from both of you as to why you didn't find it possible to resolve this issue between yourselves using the Discussion tools available on Wikipedia, Can you be specific and try to reference specific areas in which you found offensive (and link to them.) This can help me judge if you have both taken steps to help resolve the matter peacefully. Thank you. --Wiki-Impartial (talk) 18:28, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is an example of Solicitr's method of discussion on the talk page and my reply:
"03:53, 10 November 2013 Solicitr (talk | contribs) . . (23,856 bytes) (-757) . . (Undid revision 580928410 by Damwiki1 (talk): Re-reverted- stop repeating your lies) (undo | thank)" You will also note a continuing pattern of making edits and reverts with no edit summary.
"DamWiki insists on maintaining the categorical statement, which is categorically false, that "the largest part of the disparity between RN and USN carriers in aircraft capacity was the use of a permanent deck park on USN carriers". This is part and parcel of DamWiki's very POV campaign to create the impression that RN armored-deck carriers did not, as they did, pay a heavy price in air group capacity. Yet let's look at the numbers, as provided in his own cite: "On June 05 1945, USS Bennington reported that her maximum hangar capacity was 51 aircraft, 15 SB2Cs and 36 F4Us, and that 52 were carried as a deck park." 51 aircraft in the hagar deck alone (103 total)- while no RN armored-deck carrier, even after adopting USN practices including the use of a deck park during this same period (Okinawa), ever managed to operate more than 54 aircraft total. Solicitr (talk) 21:09, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
HMS Implacable carried 81 aircraft by adopting a permanent deck park and this is stated and referenced in the section under discussion. The USN Essex class were much larger ships, with nearly 20% greater displacement than the RN armoured carriers, so it is no surprise that they carried a greater aircraft complement but I have very patiently explained all this in the past. The article makes it very clear that armoured flight decks would impose a penalty on aircraft capacity, but as the references show, the greatest part of the disparity was due to the USN's permanent deck park, which on Bennington, actually exceeded her hangar capacity. Threats and name calling are no substitute for accurate, cited, information.Damwiki1 (talk) 21:49, 10 November 2013 (UTC)" You'll also note that he continually injects personal attacks into the discussion, and refuses to address the information and sources presented in a considered and polite manner.Damwiki1 (talk) 22:06, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
DRN coordinator's note:@Wiki-Impartial: Would you please disclose the username of your other account so that the participants may evaluate whether you have any prior experience with any of them or with the topic of this dispute with a view to deciding whether they might wish to object to you in the manner set forth at the top of the page? It would be best to do so on your user page, in accordance with the Maintenance bullet of WP:SOCK#LEGIT. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 06:01, 12 November 2013 (UTC) Follow up: Thanks to Wiki-Impartial for disclosing the username of his alternate account on his user page. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:57, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note 2: From what I have read in your dispute overview, User:Solicitr you have indicated the event of an edit war in which I believe occurred but during which you violated the WP:3RR. To make this simple can you please quote the content User:Damwiki1 added to the article and give a link to the source that he cited in reference to this content. --Wiki-Impartial (talk) 12:24, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@User:Me and He made more then three reverts in a 24 Hour time-frame according to the page history. He was already warned on two occasions by administration. However this isn't specifically about the WP:3RR that was a violation I believe was made during the edit war. --Wiki-Impartial (talk) 13:08, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@Wiki-Impartial: 3RR is within a 24 period. You said there was "a clear violation of the WP:3RR", which is not true. I assume the two warnings you refer to are these: [14][15]. I note only one of those was given by an administrator; "administration" implies people with greater authority than regular editors, which does not appear to be the case. I have no investment in this dispute, and I haven't looked to see if there's anything I'd call warring, but I think it's important to be sure of what you're asserting before you assert it as fact, particularly when accusing another editor of bad behaviour. —me_and13:26, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's only three reverts, and only three edits at all within a 24-hour period. Other editors have made reverts, but 3RR only applies to reverts a specific editor is making. What am I missing?
@Wiki-Impartial: Regarding editing your own comment, since I'd already responded it changes the context and meaning of my response, and makes it unclear why I was pointing out 3RR applies to a 24-hour period. WP:REDACT advises using markup to highlight when you've changed the meaning of your comments. —me_and13:48, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
@User:Me and Wikipedia has a number of rules and guidelines around reverts. From the history I believe that the Person who uses the account User:Solicitr violated guidelines under the WP:3RR. There is also the guideline WP:ROWN that is more specific about Reverting when necessary. Regardless this Dispute Resolution is not about Revert rules and how many times the user reverted the article and my main focus now is what material was added and the source that was used in conjunction with it. Further discussion about the interpretation and use of the WP:3RR should be made on a talk page or under the comments section as it's not directly related to this request for dispute resolution, thank you. --Wiki-Impartial (talk) 14:03, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Solicitr removed essentially the same material with revision 556001269 (20 May 2013) - note that he made no edit summary. He then removed it again, 4 times with revisions 580867956, 580994322, 580998130, and at 20:10 10 November 2013. In any event, I have clearly sourced my edits and you can read in my statement, above, how Solicitr makes the statement:"while no RN armored-deck carrier, even after adopting USN practices including the use of a deck park during this same period (Okinawa), ever managed to operate more than 54 aircraft total." while the article even now, contains a sourced statement showing HMS Implacable operating 81 aircraft. I also think that it is incumbent upon Wiki-Impartial to restore the article to it's status prior to Solicitr's latest round of edits, pending the outcome of this dispute.Damwiki1 (talk) 16:10, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
Am I misunderstanding your question, Wiki-Impartial? You seem to be asking for evidence regarding behavioural issues. As it makes clear at the top of this page, participants are asked to "Avoid discussing editor behavior or conduct, just content please." Perhaps you should clarify what you are asking for. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:16, 11 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As I've already pointed out, this isn't an appropriate place to discuss behavioural issues. The purpose of this noticeboard is to resolve content disputes by encouraging those in dispute to discuss the matter, and then reach a resolution with the assistance of others. If you wish to complain about contributors behaviour, you will need to do so elsewhere (i.e. WP:ANI), and raising it here isn't going to be conducive to settling the content dispute. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:31, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have done this User:TransporterMan. Hello User:AndyTheGrump the reason I asked this question was to see if they have taken sufficient steps to resolve the dispute in other ways besides making a request for intervention. This can help me build a clearer picture of the whole matter. It isn't intended to request a rundown of each persons behavior, only to reference the attempts made so far to resolve the dispute. Thanks. I would appreciate your feedback on my talk page so I can answer.--Wiki-Impartial (talk) 09:18, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Let's not discuss conduct at all, including edit warring and 3RR issues. If there are behavioral issues, the parties can work them out at an appropriate conduct noticeboard (EWN, ANI, RFC/U, ARBCOM) and if necessary this discussion can be put on hold while that occurs. Can we shift the discussion at this point to just the content issues and drop further discussion of conduct? Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:42, 12 November 2013 (UTC) (as DRN coordinator) PS: I have struck and collapsed conduct discussions above. The remaining edit, above, by Damwiki1 has conduct issues as well, but also has important references to content which need to be preserved and I have left it for that reason. Thanks to AndyTheGrump for taking this up in my absence. — TM 15:57, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Damwiki1 continues to assert baldly counterfactual statements.
1) I do not and have never denied that the US Navy used a permanent deck park, which was SOP from long before the war, and DW's claim that I deny it is simply untrue.
2) DW's assertion, repeated here, that "the RN did not use permanent deck parks until 1943, and this accounts for most of the difference in the aircraft capacity" is simply false, and it is this false statement which needs to be remedied>
Some background here for those who aren't familiar with the subject-matter geekery- aircraft carriers can carry aircraft in two places, on the hangar deck or "in the barn," and on the flight deck or "on the roof." Aircraft parked above are usually referred to as the "deck park."
At the outset of WWII, the USN commonly used a deck park- even with ample hangar space, because a doctrine which emphasized speed of sortie-generation decided that striking aircraft below was inefficient and unnecessary, save for maintenance. US practice was, after a recovery cycle, to respot the planes directly from the bow to the after end of the flight deck, ready for the next launch cycle. The hangar was workspace and storage for spares, save in very bad weather (and not always even then). The RN on the other hand valued protection above all else, and kept all their aircraft under cover on the hangar deck. Eventually the RN realized that this reduced air operations to a crawl, and during the late war they adopted US practices, including the use of the deck park. This also permitted the British carriers to augment their air groups beyond the small numbers carried previously. (Note, however, that deck-park capacity was not unlimited, nor could be indulged in up to the every-square-inch crowding seen in photos of carriers engaged in ferry missions; you still needed enough clear space for landings and takeoffs, limiting the available deck park to roughly 25-30% or so of flight-deck length).
Now - and here is where the root of the dispute lies - during the 1930s, carrier designers on both sides of the Atlantic were confronted with a choice; as with almost all engineering, everything is a tradeoff. On a displacement of 20-odd thousand tons, one could design a carrier with the armored deck at the hangar deck level, or at the flight deck level; the latter, however, meant that the supporting structures needed to be correspondingly heavy and the hangar space below was necessarily constrained. Or, one could treat the flight deck as light superstructure, which left the hangar largely unprotected but allowed for a much greater internal capacity. US planners had determined early on that 4 squadrons of 18, 72 aircraft, was the necessary air wing, and designed its carriers based on that figure, with hangars intended to hold that many (admittedly smaller, pre-war) planes, together with an extra 25% as spares stored in the overhead. It should be repeated, however, that US carriers preferred to leave the planes on the roof except for maintenance and repair work. The British, by contrast, emphasized safety and damage protection, and accordingly put the armor on the flight deck (and in the early carriers, the hangar sides as well, the "armored box"), accepting a necessarily limited air group which was lined up in single file and moved to the lift one at a time after the previous plane had launched.
Both navies, it should be emphasized, made entirely rational decisions based on the nature of the war they expected to fight and for the most part did fight. Confronting land-based airpower in the confined Mediterranean, the RN was entirely justified in emphasizing protection; concomitantly, facing a carrier war in the vast Pacific US designers were quite reasonable in maximizing offensive power.
This is the point at which DW's POV crusade enters: here, as on other sites, he is determined to "prove" that the RN was in all things superior to the stupid, blundering, incompetent USN, and so here on this page he has tried to feign that designers were faced with no 'choice' or 'tradeoff' at all: that the RN armored flight deck design did not impose a serious cost in airgroup capacity; and this sleight of hand pivots on the declaration that "most of the difference in capacity was due to the US Navy's use of a deck park." This statement is false.
The first three British AFD carriers, Illustrious, Victorious, and Formidable, had hangar capacity for 36-40 relatively small pre-war/early-war aircraft, and British doctrine at this time precluded carrying more than could fit in the hangar. Their half-sister Indomitable installed a two-level hangar, which increased the capacity to around 48 (at the price of low overheads and even slower planehandling). Note, again, that using ca. 1940 size factors, the US carriers had hangar space - without a deck park - for almost double the Illustrious and 2/3 more than Indomitable.
DW attemts to confuse the issue by equivocating silently into the late-war period; but by the late war things had changed. Aircraft were bigger, the USN was cramming as many planes aboard as could possibly operate (100-110), and the RN had started to adopt deck parking. His citation from Bennington's report in March 1945 is thus illuminating, but not in the way DW intends. At that time the Essex-class hangar was reported as holding 51 a/c, not 72; but this was a consequence of the big Avengers/Corsairs/Helldivers etc of the time, much larger than the planes of 1940. The same size issue naturally affected the RN as well. Rather more to the point is the fact that Benny out of an active airgroup of 103 could put 51 of them in the barn- which was just about as many late-war aircraft as any WWII RN carrier ever managed to operate in total (54), hangar and flight deck combined. So DW's cite is not only misleading in the way he uses it, but in fact fatally undermines his attempted argument. Solicitr (talk) 16:00, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The article even now states that HMS Implacable operated 81 aircraft and this is fully sourced. Yet Solicitr continues to state: "Rather more to the point is the fact that Benny out of an active airgroup of 103 could put 51 of them in the barn- which was just about as many late-war aircraft as any WWII RN carrier ever managed to operate in total (54), hangar and flight deck combined." I provided a reference here: Talk:Flight_deck#Latest_revision:_capacity_comparison (last entry) showing that the late war hangar capacity of the RN's 23400 ton Implacable class was 48 and that total capacity with a deck park was 72 and, of course, I provided the the reference showing Implacable actually operating 81 aircraft in 1945 while the 27500 ton USS Bennington had a hangar capacity of 51 aircraft, and carried a deck park of 53 aircraft, which shows very clearly the importance of the deck park to augmenting aircraft capacity in WW2 aircraft carriers. Additionally in the previous discussions on this subject, I provided the hangar deck area of RN armoured aircraft carriers and showed how they compared to the Essex class (which Bennington belongs to) and I showed that there was very little difference between Essex and Implacable, and thus the main difference between the two classes, in terms of aircraft capacity, was the very large deck park on Essex class aircraft carriers. Here's a relevant excerpt from a past discussion:
This article has included the statement: "The armor also reduced the length of the flight deck, reducing the maximum aircraft capacity of the armored flight deck carrier; however the largest part of the disparity between RN and USN carriers in aircraft capacity was the use of a permanent deck park on USN carriers." Solicitr has attempted to remove the latter part this statement, and his latest edit attempt includes the statement: "Reference doesn't matter if the statement is horse manure". Perhaps Solicitr can explain more fully why he feels compelled to edit the article and then justify his statement with such unscholarly remarks? Can he provide sources which contradict the referenced statement. As it is now, his justification makes his edits tantamount to vandalism. Damwiki1 (talk)
It may be from a 'source'; but simply because something appears in print doesn't mean it's not rubbish. The fact is that Essex had capacity for 72 aircraft in the hangar alone, without deck park (Norman Friedman, a real RS): double Illustrious'. The "deck park" argument is nonsense, counterfactual, and simply special pleading by Yankbashers who can't admit the operational cost of the ABH. Solicitr (talk)
Just to prove a point, Essex hanger area = 654ft x 70 ft = 45780 sq ft. Indomitable's hangers = 408 x 62 + 208 x 62 = 666 x 62 = 38192 sq ft or 84% of Essex. Essex's standard displacement = 27500tons versus 23000 tons for Indomitable or 84% of Essex, so proportionally, Indomitable has the same hanger area as Essex. The Implacable class had 458 x 62 + 208 x 62 hangers and so had larger hangar area than Essex, on a proportional basis, and eventually operated up to 81 aircraft by using a permanent deck park, which is roughly proportional to Essex, based upon their respective displacements. Ark Royal (1939) had even larger hangar area than Essex, 568ft x60ft + 452ft x 60ft = 61200 sq ft on only 22000 tons or about 1/3 more than Essex, yet Ark Royal never operated with more than 60 aircraft, because she did not use a permanent deck park. If we examine aircraft capacity in 1944/45 on RN and USN carriers we find that the use of deck parks on RN carriers greatly reduced the disparity between USN and RN designs, just as the source states: Hone, Friedman, Mandeles, British and American Carrier Development, 1919-1941, p125: "The 1931 edition of "Progress in Tactics" included a section on foreign tactics, including operating practices. The U.S. portion mentioned that "the number of aircraft in carriers is proportionately much higher than in our Navy, largely due to the practice of storing some aircraft permanently on deck."Damwiki1 (talk) 08:51, 4 March 2012 (UTC)"
Since that time I added the reference showing USS Bennington's hangar and flight capacity, and not surprisingly, it shows hangar aircraft capacity almost exactly in line with her hangar deck area. I also provided this reference in the talk section of Flight deck: "Another source for information on Deck parks in RN armoured carriers is British Warships of the Second World War, by John Roberts, p.61. He states the nominal aircraft capacity (using late war aircraft) of the Implacable class as 72 with 48 in the hangars and 24 as a permanent deck park so this shows very clearly how the use of a deck park greatly increased RN carrier capacity." I have proven that sources exist, and I provided the needed citation stating that the use of permanent deck parks accounted for the large disparity between USN and RN WW2 aircraft carriers, and I provided specific sources showing the actual capacity of USN Essex class and RN Implacable class aircraft carriers during WW2 and how they agree with the cited sources.Damwiki1 (talk) 17:07, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is the section under discussion. Before Solicitr's deletions:
When aircraft carriers supplanted battleships as the primary fleet capital ship, there were two schools of thought on the question of armor protection being included into the flight deck. The addition of armor to the flight deck offered aircraft below some protection against aerial bombs. However, to reduce top-weight the hangar height was reduced, and this restricted the types of aircraft that these ships could carry, although the Royal Navy's armored carriers did carry spare aircraft in the hangar overheads.[2] The armor also reduced the length of the flight deck, reducing the maximum aircraft capacity of the armored flight deck carrier; however the largest part of the disparity between RN and USN carriers in aircraft capacity was the use of a permanent deck park on USN carriers.[3][4] The 23,000 ton British Illustrious-class had a hangar capacity for 36 Swordfish sized aircraft and a single 458 ft x 62 ft x 16 ft ( 140m x 19m x 4.8m) hangar, but carried up to 57[5] aircraft with a permanent deck park while the 23,400 ton Implacable class featured increased hangar capacity with a 458 ft x 62 ft x 14 ft ( 140m x 19m x 4.3m) upper hangar and the addition of a 208 ft by 62 ft by 14 ft (63m x 19m x 4.3m) lower hangar, forward of the after elevator, which had a total capacity of 52 Swordfish sized aircraft and carried up to 81 aircraft with a deck park,[6] while the 27,500 ton USN Essex class had a 654 ft x 70 ft x 17.5 ft (198m x 21m x 5.3m) hangar that was designed to handle a mix of 72 prewar USN aircraft.[7] RN carriers did not use a permanent deck park until 1943. The experience of World War II caused the USN to change their design policy in favor of armored flight decks: "The main armor carried on Enterprise is the heavy armored flight deck. This was to prove a significant factor in the catastrophic fire and explosions that occurred on Enterprise's flight deck in 1969. The US Navy learned its lesson the hard way during World War II when all its carriers had only armored hangar decks. All attack carriers built since the Midway class have had armored flight decks." [8]
[2] Roberts, British Warships of the Second World War, p62.
[3] Hone, Friedman, Mandeles, British and American Carrier Development, 1919-1941, p125.
[4] USS Bennington, Action Report, OPERATIONS IN SUPPORT OF THE OCCUPATION OF OKINAWA INCLUDING STRIKE AGAINST KANOYA AIRFIELD, KYUSHU. 28 May to 10 June, 1945, p.18. On June 05 1945, USS Bennington reported that her maximum hangar capacity was 51 aircraft, 15 SB2Cs and 36 F4Us, and that 52 were carried as a deck park. At that time she carried 15 TBMs, 15 SB2Cs and the rest were a mix of F6Fs and F4Us. She was prompted to utilize, and report on, her maximum hangar storage due to a Typhoon.
When aircraft carriers supplanted battleships as the primary fleet capital ship, there were two schools of thought on the question of armor protection being included into the flight deck. The addition of armor to the flight deck offered aircraft below some protection against aerial bombs. However, to reduce top-weight the hangar height was reduced, and this restricted the types of aircraft that these ships could carry, although the Royal Navy's armored carriers did carry spare aircraft in the hangar overheads.[2] The armor also reduced the length of the flight deck, reducing the maximum aircraft capacity of the armored flight deck carrier. The 23,000 ton British Illustrious-class had a hangar capacity for 36 Swordfish sized aircraft and a single 458 ft x 62 ft x 16 ft ( 140m x 19m x 4.8m) hangar, but carried up to 57[3] aircraft with a permanent deck park while the 23,400 ton Implacable class featured increased hangar capacity with a 458 ft x 62 ft x 14 ft ( 140m x 19m x 4.3m) upper hangar and the addition of a 208 ft by 62 ft by 14 ft (63m x 19m x 4.3m) lower hangar, forward of the after elevator, which had a total capacity of 52 Swordfish sized aircraft and carried up to 81 aircraft with a deck park,[4] while the 27,500 ton USN Essex class had a 654 ft x 70 ft x 17.5 ft (198m x 21m x 5.3m) hangar that was designed to handle a mix of 72 prewar USN aircraft.[5] RN carriers did not use a permanent deck park until 1943. The experience of World War II caused the USN to change their design policy in favor of armored flight decks: "The main armor carried on Enterprise is the heavy armored flight deck. This was to prove a significant factor in the catastrophic fire and explosions that occurred on Enterprise's flight deck in 1969. The US Navy learned its lesson the hard way during World War II when all its carriers had only armored hangar decks. All attack carriers built since the Midway class have had armored flight decks." [6]
[2] Roberts, British Warships of the Second World War, p62.
however the largest part of the disparity between RN and USN carriers in aircraft capacity was the use of a permanent deck park on USN carriers.[3][4]
[3] Hone, Friedman, Mandeles, British and American Carrier Development, 1919-1941, p125.
[4] USS Bennington, Action Report, OPERATIONS IN SUPPORT OF THE OCCUPATION OF OKINAWA INCLUDING STRIKE AGAINST KANOYA AIRFIELD, KYUSHU. 28 May to 10 June, 1945, p.18. On June 05 1945, USS Bennington reported that her maximum hangar capacity was 51 aircraft, 15 SB2Cs and 36 F4Us, and that 52 were carried as a deck park. At that time she carried 15 TBMs, 15 SB2Cs and the rest were a mix of F6Fs and F4Us. She was prompted to utilize, and report on, her maximum hangar storage due to a Typhoon.
Again, I would like to point out that the article should be reverted to it's status before Solicitr's last revision, pending the outcome of this discussion.
Yet another coordinator's note: I can't speak for Wiki-Impartial, but due to the lack of use of proper indenting, quoting, and other formatting, I have absolutely no idea who said what and when, what's new and what's quoted, and the like in the foregoing wall 'o text. I started to try to puzzle it out, but then changed my mind. That's not my job and it's not Wiki-Impartial's either. If you want us to understand what you're saying, please go back and format it so it can be easily read. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:46, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It strikes me that both Solicitr and Damwiki1 might do as well to (re)read Wikipedia:No original research. There looks to me to be a great deal of WP:OR in the above, evidently posted to prove one side of the argument or another. That isn't how it is supposed to work. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:03, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have carefully footnoted all my edits, and they show that without a deck park the disparity in aircraft capacity between USN Essex class carriers and RN Implacable class carriers was about 2-1 but with a deck park it was reduced to 1.8 to 1, even though the USN Essex was almost 20% larger. My edits should stand, however in response to Solicitr's edit here: Talk:Flight_deck#Latest_revision:_capacity_comparison I rewrote the entire section and placed my proposed version in the talk page, so perhaps you could take a look at that Damwiki1 (talk) 18:20, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Thank you for providing information. I am currently taking time to read through everything and formulate a respective possible solution. Sorry for the delay but I had to deal with personal working commitments. --Wiki-Impartial (talk) 15:40, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Before involving further arguments it would be a good idea for you to read WP:REF, WP:CON, WP:V and WP:NOR. It does seem that both of you play certain parts to providing information in the article that has WP:NOR. It is important to ensure that details in the article are based on original research. --Wiki-Impartial (talk) 16:26, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you could clarify your OR assertion? I have carefully cited all my statements and I don't see any OR. In any event it seems apparent that while I have been more than willing to engage in constructive dialogue, this has not been reciprocated by the other parties here, except for yourself. Again, I have to state that wikipedia policy is to return articles to their pre-dispute status pending outcome of disputes.Damwiki1 (talk) 22:50, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It seems pretty apparent that that I'm the only person who actually participated in good faith and was actually interested in resolving a dispute. Hopefully someone can close this out.Damwiki1 (talk) 08:14, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Carolina-Cleson rivalry
– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.
Also located in South Carolina Gamecocks football. There is a dispute on whether the University of South Carolina should be referred to as "South Carolina" or "Carolina" on the relevant pages. 2Awwesome, Sandlap123, Gamecockpride123, ClemsonC4, and I agree that it should probably be changed to "South Carolina" for the sake of clarity and since other sports teams refer to themselves as "Carolina". GarnetAndBlack insists that it remain "Carolina" and argues that someone would be "dense" to confuse South Carolina with another team. Unfortunately, GarnetAndBlack and Sandlap123 have engaged in an edit war over this on both pages and attempts to produce a constructive discussion between all parties have devolved into accusations of sock-puppetry and personal attacks.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I started a new discussion on the Talk page in hopes that the edit warring would cease and we could come to a consensus, but that didn't work. I think an outside impartial party would help the situation.
How do you think we can help?
I think an impartial viewpoint on whether "South Carolina" or "Carolina" should be used would be great. I also think getting people to calm down and talk about it in a civil fashion would help. I think GarnetAndBlack believes making the change is somehow an attack on the University of South Carolina, and we would like him to understand that it is not. Sock-puppetry may have indeed occurred (it seems suspicious), but 2Awwsome and I are not sock puppets, so the discussion is still a valid one.
Summary of dispute by GarnetAndBlack
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Sandlap123
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Although I agree to keep South Carolina when referring to South Carolina, I will not be involved in this debate any longer, as i work in the same office as Gamecockpride123, and do not wish to violate any rules. Thankyou. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sandlap123 (talk • contribs) 20:14, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Summary of dispute by Gamecockpride123
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Clemson is in North Carolina's conference, the ACC. However, Clemson plays South Carolina as well. Deleting South in front of every South Carolina is only going to add confusion. This is because Clemson has a rivalry with both (North and South) Carolina. Yes, South Carolina's rivalry with them is the topic. So it should be used in the article and even title. I understand that if you say "Carolina" in the SEC then it means University of South Carolina. But if one says Carolina in the ACC, it means North Carolina. Clemson is in the ACC. This is unnecesary verbal confusion that shouldn't be an issue. When it comes down to it, there are two Carolinas. North and South. The only TRUE teams that are officially Carolina, are the Carolina Panthers and Carolina Hurricanes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gamecockpride123 (talk • contribs) 20:10, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Summary of dispute by 2Awwsome
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by ClemsonC4
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Carolina-Clemson rivalry discussion
Is this the right venue?
Hi, I'll accept this case. However the first thing I'd like to discuss is: Is this the proper forum to resolve this dispute? The dispute resolution noticeboard "is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution and get assistance to the right place; request for comment, conduct RFC, mediation or other noticeboard, if involving other issues." So it is intended as a place for moderated discussion rather than a place to get outside opinions (although anyone is welcome to participate and give their opinion if they want to). If you would like outside input and opinions then I would suggest a WP:RFC which "is an informal process for requesting outside input concerning disputes, policies, guidelines, article content, or user conduct". If you would like a moderated discussion then I am happy to assume the role of moderator for you. Any comments, questions or opinions on this?-- — Keithbob • Talk • 17:56, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Talk:Shusha
– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.
A detailed explanation was provided here by another user. In short, there's a long running dispute at talk of the article with regard to the foundation of the town. While it is generally accepted (including by major encyclopedias) that the town was founded in 1752, there are also a few primary sources of questionable reliability that may suggest otherwise. In my opinion, presenting the early foundation as a fact despite this view being in minority and contrary to the generally accepted view being the mid-18th century foundation is a violation of WP:WEIGHT. The issue requiring a resolution is how to present the conflicting views on the foundation of the town in accordance with the wiki rules.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
The issue was reported by one of the involved editors to WP:FTN, but it did not generate any outcome.
How do you think we can help?
An outside view and an active involvement of the wider wiki community would be very helpful.
Summary of dispute by Hablabar
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
The dispute arises from User:Grandmaster mischaracterizes the situation as an issue of WP:Weight in order to avoid the creative handling of timeline. He says that ostensibly the majority of sources say that Shusha was established in 1752. However, the credibility of primary sources making such statements is dubious, as demonstrated on talk pages in Shusha. Also, spinning the discussion around the majority or minority of sources can be viewed as WP:OR, unless there is a secondary source discussing the majority or minority issue in explicit terms. As it was demonstrated, mentioning the alleged establishment of Shusha in the 18th century does not override the evidence that an earlier town and fort existed long before the upgrade of Shusha into an urban settlement in the 18th century. WP:Weight, WP:FRINGE do not support the apportion of sources into "majority" and "minority," and WP:BALANCE and WP:OR invalidate this apportioning. If all mentioned sources supporting the notion of an earlier creation of the city are counted, the view about the 18th century establishment can be well a minority view, if one follows the logic of the Grandmaster/Brandmesiter duo. I suggest to return to the previous version where a composite timeline is put in place, and discrepancies are explained on the side. Hablabar (talk) 19:54, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Summary of dispute by Brandmeister
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I agree with the above that the issue at stake is how to present the conflicting pre-1750s version in the article and whether that version should be treated in accordance with WP:WEIGHT. Personally I found it difficult to find any mention of Shusha before the 1750s in reliable sources, including all encyclopedias which tackle this issue. According to some sources from the opposing camp's version, there was already a fortress in Shusha before 1750s and it was ceded to Panah Ali Khan, but it contradicts the 1750s version, which says that the town's only fortress was built by Panah Ali Khan. This latter version is confirmed particularly by the inscription on the wall of the town's mosque and some primary sources, quoted in the article. Brandmeistertalk12:42, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Summary of dispute by Roses&guns
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Zimmarod
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Talk:Shusha discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
24 hour closing notice: In light of the fact that several significant participants in this dispute have chosen not to participate here (as is their right), there's not much we can do. This will be closed as futile unless those editors choose to give opening statements before 17:00 UTC on November 27, 2013. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 17:18, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Previous consensus was that the outcome in the Infobox should not state that the result was a Viet Minh victory as the war took place in three countries: Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia and the outcome decided at the Geneva Conference saw the partition of Vietnam, the independence of Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos and the departure of the French. It is simplistic to describe it as a Viet Minh victory, particularly as the Viet Minh were forced to settle for control of only North Vietnam.
Recently some Users have changed the infobox to Viet Minh victory and they seek to support this change with a variety of POV or otherwise non-reliable sources, including out of context or shorthhand quotes (lacking any quality analysis) from authors who are not scholars of the First Indochina War.
There are a limited number of reliable sources for the outcome of the First Indochina War and the majority do not say that it was a Viet Minh victory.
Darkness Shines was certainly right to revert this edit, in which Mztourist alters sourced material simply because he disagrees with it. The facts are not in dispute: The Viet Minh achieved military victory but suffered political defeat. After looking at this a bit more closely, I can understand why Mztourist would want to omit the "victory" label altogether in favor of a more nuanced description, but misrepresenting sources (changing the source's "Viet Minh victory" to "French defeat") is not an ideal solution. I don't have much experience working on comparable infoboxes, but I would like to know how other war articles handle this type of problem. Is "victory" commonly used to summarize results? Does the failure of the victorious party to achieve all of their war aims impact the results summary?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 19:04, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
First Indochina War discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Welcome to the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. I am a regular volunteer (and the current coordinator) here. I'd like to say a few words before this kicks off because I see a procedural snag. Mztourist claims that there was a prior consensus which established the version of the results box before this edit by Darkness Shines which attempts to introduce the Viet Minh victory. There was, indeed, a substantial prior discussion here which resulted in that version, which has been in the article for several months. That discussion included the Viet Minh victory question. Here's the problem from DRN's point of view: Under this section of the Consensus policy, if there was a prior consensus — and I believe that there was, especially since there were other editors (AustralianRupert and Anotherclown) who supported Mztourist's position there — then the only way the article text can be changed in a way contrary to that prior consensus is by the formation of a new consensus. That means that this DRN discussion can only be productive if, given the current participants, Mztourist can be convinced to change his mind, perhaps with a DRN volunteer's assistance though it is also possible that the volunteer will remain neutral or, of course, side with Mztourist. If Darkness Shines and TheTimesAreAChanging do not feel that to be likely, then their only practical choices are to either drop the effort to include the text or to file a RFC at the article talk page to try to bring other editors from the community into the discussion, in which case this DRN listing will be closed. On the other hand, we can move forward with discussion here if they think that they can change Mztourist's mind. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 17:40, 22 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I see no prior consensus to remove this at that link, I see various people being worn down by attrition, that is not a consensus. We do not remove reliably sourced content because one guy don't like it. Darkness Shines (talk) 11:00, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
TheTimesAreAChanging says the facts are not in dispute and the Viet Minh acheived military victory. That is simply incorrect, the Viet Minh won several decisive battles, but they did not militarily win the war. The war didn't end April 1975 style with the Viet Minh capturing Hanoi and Saigon, it ended (like many modern wars do) at the negotiating table at Geneva, where the Viet Minh accepted partition and control of only North Vietnam. Those are the facts. The other point to note is that Indochina War means the war in 3 countries - Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos, the Viet Minh won in northern Vietnam not anywhere else. Saying the Viet Minh won the Indochina War is the same as saying the North Vietnamese won the Vietnam War, something that TheTimesAreAChanging has corrected several times recently. The reason why I suggested "French defeat" was because I was growing weary of this debate and sought an outcome statement that might be acceptable. Mztourist (talk) 05:20, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Karna's talk page
– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.
Basically, there is disagreement over the length and sourcing of the Karna article. While I think we all agree that the article can be shortened by changing prose, the primary disagreement is over content. One side is contending that the article is too boring, too long, and is violating wikipedia policy by including primary sources. The other side is contending that while the prose could be bettered to deviate from in-universe view, the article may be required to be long to fit wikipedia guidelines on building a fictional character biography. Also, that primary sources can be used in an article to describe "plot" of a story, and just not in analysis or interpretation.
@Dharma:
Consensus is not determined by counting heads. Yes, you asked me to stay out of it for a week. I then proposed certain guidelines for you to follow in that week. You never responded and proceeded with edits that violated those conditions. Yet I still did not revert anything and tried to engage y'all with little result. I think in your desire to avoid "mumbo jumbo", you end up providing no examples and no context. Hence, your arguments devolve into "content should be "x way" because "x way" is good, because "x way" is good. Pinkfloyd11 (talk) 07:49, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've posted to the talk page per BRD, referencing specific examples and referencing wikipedia guidelines. Some of my contentions really haven't been answered. The editors in questioned have expressed their frustration at the length of my posts. They've gone ahead and done some very massive edits without discussion. They've suggested I go to this board. I've wanted to avoid it, but they aren't leaving me much choice. Of course this is only "my" side.
How do you think we can help?
Maybe clarify the wikipedia guidelines relevant to this dispute? Help judge what kind of plot content is relevant to the analysis? Answer the question if articles like the one in type have a set length limit?
Fundamentally, I want them to engage in conversation with me. A lot of what I am hearing is "primary sources are bad because they are bad" or "delete content because it should be deleted". They want me to refute their specific points while not expecting the same of themselves....
Summary of dispute by Abecedare
Background
The article is about a character from the Indian epis Mahabharata and the dispute as I see it is regarding how much space should be devoted to simple character bio based on (translations or paraphrases of) the primary source (ie, the Mahabharata) versus what secondary sources have said on the subject. For future reference, the starting point for discussion was this version of the article.
My view
Essentially copying from my post on the article talk page:
The article needs drastic pruning from the in-universe mess that it currently is (On a quick look, sections 2-7 need to be combined into a single 2-4 paragraph summary.) The aim of an encyclopedic article such is this one is not to to provide a cliffs note version of Mahabharata, but rather to concentrate on what modern scholars have had to say about the subject; his portrayal; possible inspirations and archetypes; cultural, literary and religious significance etc. Quotes and paraphrases from Mahabharata should be very limited, comparable to say a plot section of a well developed movie or book article
Here is a sample list of high quality secondary sources on the subject that can used to improve the article by any interested editor. I may give it a try, but will probably not get to it till December.
Suggestion
I think WP:ADOPT or WP:30 would be better avenues for resolving the issues, but have no objection if DRN is preferred by Pinkfloyd11, since an "outside opinion" can often be helpful. Note though that there have been two previous such attempts:
I myself entered the picture after seeing this post on the Hinduism Project Noticeboard, and initially commented on the article talk page
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
@Pinkfloyd11: I had left the article to allow you to do whatever pleased you. You said we should have consensus and do nothing without that. Two more editors, and the only two present there beside you and me, are okay with the way i am going towards cleaning this article. Thats WP:CONSENSUS dear. In fact, they both suggested that the article should be deleted and started from stub again which i felt unnecessary. Further to that, on 22nd Nov i asked you to stay out of the business for a week (that's generally 7 days on Earth). There is no dispute at all to run to the DRN; at least yet. Come back after 7 days when the article is ready. And remember WP:WALL. No one reads all this mumbo jumbo. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 05:41, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
With a click, any version of the article can be restored any time. Only if you could keep out and let other editors work, you would know what we are doing. There is so much fuss you created and that too without knowing whats in my or other's mind. So quit wasting everyone's time and edit something else; or better still just go away forever. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 12:28, 23 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
After conducting extensive research, I made a serious contribution to this article and cited the appropriate references to source materials. It was my intent to bring the article up to date, since much information has been declassified over the past 50 years.
My contribution was immediately reverted. When I restored it, explaining why, I was accused of engaging in an edit war. I then conducted further research to provide addition backup to my contribution. It was again reverted. Claims of "common sense", "conspiracy theory" and, best of all "zillions of other sources" (the intellectual equivalent of "since everybody says so, so do we") are being used against my solidly referenced and carefully worded contribution.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I have made posted in "Talk" and messaged the reverters.
They continue to undo rather than engage in discussion with me.
How do you think we can help?
Please read my contribution, check my references and take whatever measures are necessary to help us all publish the facts, whether people like them or not.
Thank you in advance for your guidance.
Summary of dispute by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/68.196.22.229
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Jack Ruby discussion
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In my opinion, 4eyes is attempting to convert Jack Ruby into a coat rack to portray the fringe view that Lee Harvey Oswald should not be called the assassin of John F. Kennedy. Consensus is that Oswald should be described as the assassin as that's how he's described in reliable sources. We should not deviate from that consensus in any related article. Discussion of the many mutually contradictory theories that Oswald did not assassinate Kennedy should be confined to articles about those conspiracy theories, rather than in this main group of articles. Cullen328Let's discuss it04:31, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Two weeks ago, an AfD for the "Highest-valued currency unit" article closed, and the result was to merge its content to "List of circulating currencies." Edit warring has taken place on both the merged page and the target page; users are not in agreement that the merge has completed, since editors on the target page do not show a consensus to add very much of the content from the merged article.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
Participated in some talk discussions. Reverted a revert (flubbed the edit summary, but explained in talk) and was reverted.
How do you think we can help?
Determine conclusively which content should be merged so that the merge can complete without future edit warring.
Summary of dispute by 2Awwsome
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There's no consensus either way, the consensus at the AfD was to merge, and because none of the merge was completed, the article to be merged should not be moved to a redirect. It is 'Volunteer' Marek who is not respecting the outcome of the AfD. He also seems to have a political motive for deleting these sorts of lists, given his methodical PRODding of country lists sorted by GDP.2AwwsomeTell me where I screwed up.See where I screwed up. 16:31, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
Reply to 'Volunteer' Marek:
1. 3 v 5 is nowhere near consensus.
2. 3 v 3 is not consensus
3. All of that is just saying you don't like it.
2AwwsomeTell me where I screwed up.See where I screwed up.18:03, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Summary of dispute by Jklamo
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Summary of dispute by Volunteer Marek
Elaborating on the comment by Zntrip below: I do not think that there was consensus to merge. Only three editors (including the nominator) backed such a proposal. To be precise: I only backed a "merging" of a single sentence from the original article - that the Kuwaiti dinar has traded for more dollars than any other currency (essentially because it is a currency unit subdivided into 1000 rather 100 units as with other currencies). I definitely did not support merging all the original research which constituted 99.99% of the original article. Neither did anyone else, AFAICT. Even that part was an attempt to compromise; it's not really essential that the info about the Kuwaiti dinar is mentioned in List of circulating currencies.
The AfD nomination was *not* "off the cuff". The original article was OR crap and the version being actively restored by 2Awwsome in contravention of the AfD result is the same OR crap. I do agree with Zntrip that this content is completely non-encyclopedic. Volunteer Marek 22:33, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Reply to 2Awwsome:
-- There was consensus to "merge" a tiny part of the original article which was not original research. You're trying to copy/paste the entire piece of junk into a new article
-- Understandably the editors at List of circulating currencies do not want to have that piece of junk in the article. So there is consensus to NOT include 99% of the old article in the new one. (I actually feel bad that in my attempt at compromise I dropped this problem into their hands).
-- At the end of the day the fact remains that 99% of the original article is original research junk, created by a now banned user. There's no way that this material stays anywhere. It's simply not encyclopedic. And that was the point of the AfD, whatever the fate of the other 1%.
-- You're engaging in vindictive edit warring because you didn't get your way at the Chopin article. This is like the fourth or fifth pointless argument you started, wasting a whole lot of people's time, since you arrived on Wikipedia. You have problems with basic WP:COMPETENCE, for example not being able to tell a Wikipedia mirror from a reliable source (and keep on insisting it's a reliable source even when the obvious fact has been pointed out to you by several editors!). Your actions fit the textbook definition of "disruptive editor". Volunteer Marek 17:31, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Summary of dispute by Zntrip
In my humble opinion, there is consensus, at the very least, to not include the entirety of the merger article into the target. 2Awwsome, who has been the persistent objector, has not made a good faith attempt to discuss the merger and has on-and-off engaged in disruptive behavior.
My personal objection to merging the entirety of the article into "List of circulating currencies" is that the information is manifestly outside the scope of the list and that individual exchange rates (like stock prices) are not appropriate for an encyclopedia because they fluctuate constantly. I think it would simply be better to include an external link to currency exchange site.
I would also like to point out the result of the AfD discussion appears dubious to me. I do not think that there was consensus to merge. Only three editors (including the nominator) backed such a proposal and the proposal itself was initially made as an off-the-cuff remark. I instead believe that the result should have been "no consensus". I had previously voiced by concerns to the admin who closed the AfD and I will invite him to comment here. – Zntrip18:48, 24 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Highest-valued currency unit discussion
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DRN Coordinator's note: I have struck a couple of conduct comments in the material above. Do not discuss conduct, only discuss content. In light of the removals and reversions which have been happening here, just about any more of this will cause this listing to be closed. — TransporterMan (TALK) 18:34, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
There are two individual editors who has kept reverting edits that had to do with removing the adult genre. The reference for that matter is not reliable, nor it does not fit the content of the show, that's why it has been removed.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I have tried to discuss it in the Reference Desk, but I have received criticism of my edits on the article by AmericanDad86, accusing me of 3RRing when I didn't even pass it that day, in which the user also discuss off topic stuff that had nothing to do with the issue.
How do you think we can help?
We can agree to remove the genre, and not re-add it, as when the day it was a featured article back in 2007, here, there was no genre on the article stating that it was only for adults.
Summary of dispute by AmericanDad86
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Summary of dispute by Grapesoda22
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The Simpsons discussion
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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
I found a passage which I personally found unclear. I marked it "huh?" although another editor reverted, I think due to a misunderstanding. On the talk page, there was another discussion of the same paragraph, and I mentioned the passage, and my uncertainty about what it was supposed to mean. Other editors thought it was perfectly clear, though I don't know what they thought it was supposed to mean. One encouraged us to just check the sources and do the edits, rather than asking around on the talk page, so I checked the source, and rewrote the passage so it would be clear.
Later, Laser Brain came across my edit, thought my version was ungrammatical, and reversed it to the version I found unclear. I took this as a mistake, mentioned that mine was grammatical [in AmE it is], and the old version unclear, and reverted. Pretty soon Laser Brain came over to my talk page to accuse me of edit-warring and threaten to block me from editing. I raised the issue on the article talk page.
I feel that we should try to make the passage as clear as possible for as many readers as possible. And if Laser Brain finds my passage unclear, I'd like to find one which is clear. I also feel attacked, and that makes it hard to focus on the editing. I don't know if Laser Brain feels the same way.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I've discussed this on the talk page.
How do you think we can help?
Since I think there's a need for clarification, since Laser Brain and I don't agree about the grammar, and since I think we should try to be as clear and as grammatical to as many readers as possible, maybe someone can help hash out a version which satisfies my concerns about the meaning, and Laser Brain's and anyone else's concerns about the grammar.
Summary of dispute by Laser_brain
I'm not sure why Ananiujitha is so impatient. They posted to Talk:Autism with complaints about the wording of the passage in question less than 24 hours ago, tagging it in the article body as needing clarification. SandyGeorgia told Ananiujitha to go read the source for clarification, and Dbrodbeck removed the tag. Ananiujitha then changed the wording to an ungrammatical mess, which I reverted. They changed it again, and then re-added the original tag when I once again reverted the ungrammatical edit. Autism is a Featured Article and we can't have these problems introduced. For the record, I did not threaten to use admin tools against this user; I threatened to report them for edit warring if they persisted in introducing problems into the article. I've asked Ananiujitha to remove the tag they place in the article but they have ignored me. This should be closed as premature and unnecessary. --Laser brain(talk)20:11, 25 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Autism discussion
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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
A statement is made in the article regarding the sociological status of a scientific paradigm without any polling data or research to support that statement.
Example, it is claimed that a theory is "mostly rejected". This is a sociological and anthropological claim. It has no support, is irrelevant, and should be removed.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
sociological and anthropological statements on this matter should be omitted. There is no reason to say whether a theory is accepted or rejected unless there is polling data from a polling firm like Zogby to support this assertion.
How do you think we can help?
Inform individual that anthropology and sociological polling does not exist to support his claim and the claim is irrelevant to the topic.
Summary of dispute by Arianewiki1
User Orrerysky seems to be a new Wikipedia editor in the last few days and has only edited this one page.
He Talk:Plasma cosmology writes "@ Arianewiki1, not only are the majority of your comments utterly wrong, a quick check of this topic sees that you are one of the very individuals guilty of the edit warring taking place. I wonder if it my entry that is biased, or your's. In fact, the answer to that question is quite obvious. I am going to seek to have you banned from further contributions to this article. Orrerysky (talk) 02:38, 26 November 2013 (UTC)"
Already WP:NPA#WHATIS and WP:CIV is in play, and I do openly question the User's motive here.
To this WP:DNR, the user then changes the word "rejected" with "unknown", I explain my reasoning, then he immediately changes the page again, then goes this dispute resolution without any further discussion.
Here the Fringe science article says; "Fringe science is scientific inquiry in an established field of study that departs significantly from mainstream or orthodox theories, and is classified in the "fringes" of a credible mainstream academic discipline."
Logically, plasma cosmology to most astronomers and cosmologists is therefore correct in saying "Plasma cosmology is a mostly rejected non-standard cosmological model,... " I.e. We know plasma cosmology is consider fringe science.
Since writing this, a new user User:Keyriced appeared at Talk:Plasma cosmology, who in his FIRST POST says; "After reviewing the available data I believe that Orrerysky is right to say it should say "mostly unknown" as opposed to "mostly rejected"." Only even minutes later User:Orrerysky again gives a reply to Keyiced supporting his own argument. I do openly question is motive of these actions, who seems to be reinforcing / influencing his views for change. Arianewiki1 (talk) 04:39, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm probably jumping the gun here a bit but I'm assuming Keyriced is a sock of Orrerysky. Again this assumption is based on the prevalence of sock accounts being created specifically to gain consensus. Just a thought. -- Jodon | Talk11:40, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Plasma Cosmology discussion
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Arianewiki1, I was told that editing wikipedia was a community activity. So, if I inform someone about my doings and they decide to support my efforts, well that appears to be a community effort. This is afterall, a community project, is it not?
Let's go back to your other statements, after making several fallacious arguments saying I should be banned for "edit warring" which even the Admin in our discussion will agree never happened. You seem to be pressing the admin to take action. This is called bullying and peer-pressuring and is threatening behavior. I can only assume that you are opposed to have someone move in on "your turf" that you wish to "camp" in order to enforce "your will" on the article.
Now, let us go back to the classification of fringe, "fringe" does not mean "rejected" it means "fringe". The efforts of a small group. Furthermore, you have no backing to support your claim regarding widespread acceptance or rejection. Which Sociological or Anthropoligical organization conducted the Poll? Was it Zogby? Perhaps another polling agency? These statements of yours have no support in the publications of any organization. Where is the questionairre that was sent out? What is the statistical variance? What was the size of the polling sample? How were participant selected. You are forcing your own bias into the conversation and making statements without any support backing them up. Furthermore, you have no evidence that your model does not fall under the umbrella of Plasma Cosmology. As Plasma Cosmology makes no determination about the age or extent of the universe, models that might study the radiation from cosmic plasma in order to make calculations about the age of the universe, could quite easily fall under the umbrella of Plasma Cosmology.
It is requested that you cease & desist your reversions until you can provide the proper support from a sociological data gathering institute. Orrerysky (talk) 04:51, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo
– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.
I have prepared a set of family tree charts to accompany the novel and the movie. I am a professional genealogist, and thought I would share the charts with other viewers. There is no charge for the charts, they are free. As elaborately documented in our discussion at the second site, the charts are important towards understanding the movie.
I posted an external link to my charts page, from the GWDT page. Mr. Gareth Griffith-Jones deleted the link.
I have tried to discuss this with Mr. Gareth Griffith-Jones, but the discussion seems to bounce around, with Mr. Griffith-Jones grasping at various pretexts to "win" his point.
Following his suggestion that the book's site may not be the best place to add the link, I moved the link to the film's page, whereby Mr. Griffith-Jones pounced on it.
I am offering genuine value to other Wikipedians.
Note that in his very first communication with me. Mr. Griffith-Jones [1] threatened me, [2] accused me and [3] did not assume my good intentions, which I have.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I have had what I feel are extensive and reasonable discussions with Mr. Gareth Griffith-Jones, but he is obdurate.
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Summary of dispute by Hafspajen
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The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo
Since the genealogy chart shows photographs of characters from the English-language film of 2011, but uses the relationships in the book, which are different, the inclusion of an external link in this case seems to me to be potentially misleading for the reader. Deb (talk) 14:46, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sprezzatura has expressed a desire to freely share his (her?) work. That's a noble goal and it can be done in a non-controversial way: post the charts to Commons. To do so would be incontrovertible proof of Sprezzatura's good faith and it would resolve this issue. Lambtron (talk) 15:59, 28 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I have uploaded the Vanger family tree to Wikimedia Commons, under the User ID "Gnarfulous", not because of some sinister attempt to conceal my identity, but because "sprezzatura" was already taken by someone else.
The advantage of linking to the Website is that it offers ten different presentations of the family tree, including Fan Chart, Outline Descendant, Trellis, Timeline, narrative book, and a format that permits printing a large 48" x 22" (122 cm x 56 cm) chart on your home printer, through a process called tiling. I won't be allowed to link to all these options.Gnarfulous (talk) 22:19, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am seriously confused: I tried to sign into "Wikimedia Commons" with my User ID "sprezzatura" and password. They were rejected. So I figured "OK, Wikimedia uses a different set of User IDs", so I created a new User "Gnarfulous".
However, now I see that I drifted back into Wikipedia as "Gnarfulous". I don't understand what is going on. I am not "sock puppeting", I will never ever use "Gnarfulous" again if I can figure out how to sign into Wikimedia as "sprezzatura".Sprezzatura (talk) 23:12, 29 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
At Deaths in 2013, there is a dispute over inclusion of well-known related people in the blurb, names which I contend help identify the person, but are objected to by the other editor. Discussion on the talk page, as usual, has yielded just one other opinion (split between the two examples in this case) from one of the other regular editors of the page.
The cases are:
Edmund Reggie, 87, American politician and Louisiana municipal judge.
or
Edmund Reggie, 87, American politician and Louisiana municipal judge, Ted Kennedy's father-in-law.
and
Diane Disney Miller, 79, American philanthropist, complications from a fall.
I contend that the second instance of both cases helps the reader know who the person was – a primary question in the minds of those reading death announcements, particularly here, where there are so many names that are unrecognizable to a given reader because of the global coverage.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
None.
How do you think we can help?
Bring enough neutral, objective opinions to form a real consensus.
Deaths in 2013 is clearly WP:OWNed by a very small number of users. Discussions on the article and user talk pages rarely get more than one other contributor, and the "outsider" routinely gives up. The insider routinely gets their way through persistence. Either nobody else reads the talk page of this highly-visited page, nobody else cares, or nobody else wants to fight what seems to often be a futile battle.
Summary of dispute by WWGB
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Deaths in 2013 discussion
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There is a MOS discussion on tenure year range format at the MOS Manual of Style/Dates and numbers talk page that has long roots. Wiki projects for several major sports (basketball, association football, American football, baseball and to an extent Cricket) have been using an 8 digit. Date format to show tenure with club in infoboxes and templates. MOS currently encourages 6 digit. MOS-focused editors this 6 digit should be enforced, sports editors think 8 digit. My concern is that we were not able to resolve this in a discussion in March/April and this seems to be headed the same direction. An article on an Israeli basketball player (Gal Mekel) has been changed and reverted several times. I have personally reverted it several times because I strongly feel the article should be left in its original state until the date issue is resolved. Please help us. Ideally, someone who understands MOS but is not locked into the current state would be preseferable. Likewise, someone who gets that sport articles are important but is not actively involved with one of the projects that use the 8 digit format. This will continually be a problem - resulting in unconstructive edits and reverts - until resolved with MOS being tweaked one way or the other. Thank you.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I have made a formal request to amend the MOS. In my opinion it either needs to be tightened to expressly forbid or language added to allow 8 digit date spans
How do you think we can help?
Please help the MOS review. It needs unbiased mediation,. Right now everyone is either an MOS loyalist or a sports editor. Probably neither can be 100% unbiased. Leaving MOS as is will not result in a happy end in my opinion.
Summary of dispute by Epeefleche
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Summary of dispute by others
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Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers
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Proposal to rename the article "Australia men's national association football team" on the basis there is a women's national team too. Proposer argued the name is innaccurate, others argued the current name is sexist, opponents argue it is normal WP:PRIMARYTOPIC disambiguation, born out by evidence and would have impact on every other sports article.
Discussion has become increasingly very heated with poor language and personal insults from several people, particularly from some of the 'support' camp. How should the issue be resolved? (Suggestions have been put forward that it should be taken to a general higher-level discussion rather than piecemeal article name-changing, but WikProject Football isn't a favoured option at all)
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
Suggested articles be moved to "Socceroos" and "Matildas", their common names. I was initially halfway between the two camps and was trying to grasp a policy based reason to support a name change. Unfortunately driven into the 'oppose' camp by the intransigence and name calling.
How do you think we can help?
Suggest an alternative forum? Discussion is now difficult to navigate or comprehend because of its great length, so I don't know how effective an RFC would be (though maybe an option). If I knew the solution I wouldn't have come here.
Summary of dispute by LauraHale
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Summary of dispute by 2nyte
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Summary of dispute by PeeJay
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Summary of dispute by HiLo48
I feel that one could summarise the Oppose arguments in two ways. One is given by the proposer above - It "...would have impact on every other sports article". That's clearly nonsense. There are already many examples of men's teams with and without that word. Changing the one in question would not force change anywhere else. Nonsense arguments are very frustrating, and inevitably generate heat. The other Oppose argument seems to be that the men's team is the more important, and doesn't need clarification. That's not the case legally, depends on Google hit counts (always a dodgy approach), and obviously inflammatory. The Opposers really seem opposed to change because they're opposed to change, another heat generator. HiLo48 (talk) 01:08, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Summary of dispute by Clavdia chauchat
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Summary of dispute by Sionk
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Summary of dispute by Jmorrison230582
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Summary of dispute by Lukeno94
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This is one of the most ridiculous "debates" I've ever been involved in. I have stated, as many others have, that Laura should've started a discussion on WP:FOOTBALL with regards to where all national football team articles are located; a single article move request is doomed to fail as it would contradict the existing global consensus. From there on in, it has degenerated into a farcical mudslinging contest, initially started by Laura, HiLo and Clavdia, which the likes of myself and other users have ended up reacting to in equally unhelpful ways. The fact that these users seem utterly incapable of actually reading other people's posts, much less responding to them in a helpful manner, has contributed to most of the problem; Laura has constantly spun things round and round in circles by ignoring the answers to her questions, and instead repeating her questions; Clavdia and HiLo have contributed very little but inflammatory content, for the most part (although, at least HiLo did bring up a valid question about which word out of Australia/Australian is more appropriate for the title). Perhaps Laura's worst actions are to edit-war (via tag teaming with Clavdia) in two tags (NPOV and UNDUE) that are rejected by the consensus of most editors, and are simply WP:POINTy additions, into the article itself. This is despite the fact that she has openly admitted her issue is with the title, and therefore this aspect is simply a distraction in order to enforce her views strongly. I should also note that Laura has previously attempted a move of a whole bunch of Australian articles via RM back in 2011, which was soundly rejected as well (two page moves by another user a year later have directly contradicted said consensus, without the formation of a new one). Finally, I should state that I have no issue with the presence of the word "men's" being in the title, or with it staying at the same location as it is currently; however, I do strongly object to the underhanded backdoor tactics that Laura and her tag-team have used, and indeed still are using. Lukeno94(tell Luke off here)01:26, 30 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Talk:Australia national association football team discussion
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