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:::::::::::::::::*Read what I wrote properly, or go away. It's been pretty damn obvious from the very beginning that you've been reading little bits of what people have written, and not even attempting to read them properly. The above comment is a shining example of that. Also, [[WP:NOTCENSORED]] means I can, and will, continue to use the exact words I choose, and one editor who is too lazy/arrogant to even attempt to read what people write moaning about things won't change that. [[User:Lukeno94|<font color="Navy">Luke</font><font color="FireBrick">no</font><font color="Green">94</font>]] [[User talk:Lukeno94#top|<i>(tell Luke off here)</i>]] 13:22, 2 December 2013 (UTC) |
:::::::::::::::::*Read what I wrote properly, or go away. It's been pretty damn obvious from the very beginning that you've been reading little bits of what people have written, and not even attempting to read them properly. The above comment is a shining example of that. Also, [[WP:NOTCENSORED]] means I can, and will, continue to use the exact words I choose, and one editor who is too lazy/arrogant to even attempt to read what people write moaning about things won't change that. [[User:Lukeno94|<font color="Navy">Luke</font><font color="FireBrick">no</font><font color="Green">94</font>]] [[User talk:Lukeno94#top|<i>(tell Luke off here)</i>]] 13:22, 2 December 2013 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::::::::::* Luke, please stop with your hysterical observations. It is clear to me that you are not familiar Wikipedia policies. Furthermore, it is clear to me that you fail to understand the purpose Wikiprojects. You think that the consensus developed by a few members results in the final say of all things related to the project. Luke, in your hysterical support of [[WP:NPOV|POV]] regarding the men's game, you have ignored the multiple Arbitration cases that said this is patently not true. [[WP:ARBCOM]] has said projects cannot do this. Therefor, that point of discussion is a non-started. Wikiprojects are not the final arbitrators. You've been repeatedly told this and you've hysterically repeatedly made the claim of the opposite. Ask the Birds people and the Classical Music people and the US Roads people. They've all been down that road and ArbCom has been pretty consistent on that point. Wikiprojects are not and cannot be the final arbitrator. So please stop pushing this. --[[User:LauraHale|LauraHale]] ([[User talk:LauraHale|talk]]) 13:48, 2 December 2013 (UTC) |
::::::::::::::::::::* Luke, please stop with your hysterical observations. It is clear to me that you are not familiar Wikipedia policies. Furthermore, it is clear to me that you fail to understand the purpose Wikiprojects. You think that the consensus developed by a few members results in the final say of all things related to the project. Luke, in your hysterical support of [[WP:NPOV|POV]] regarding the men's game, you have ignored the multiple Arbitration cases that said this is patently not true. [[WP:ARBCOM]] has said projects cannot do this. Therefor, that point of discussion is a non-started. Wikiprojects are not the final arbitrators. You've been repeatedly told this and you've hysterically repeatedly made the claim of the opposite. Ask the Birds people and the Classical Music people and the US Roads people. They've all been down that road and ArbCom has been pretty consistent on that point. Wikiprojects are not and cannot be the final arbitrator. So please stop pushing this. --[[User:LauraHale|LauraHale]] ([[User talk:LauraHale|talk]]) 13:48, 2 December 2013 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::::::::::*OK, I'll just do the broken record impression again; maybe that way you will be able to read this. '''I am not opposed to the proposed move; just the way the entire situation has been handled, and the methods you are using, in contrary to what everyone has requested you to do.''' If you're not going to bother reading that, then don't fucking bother replying with clear bullshit statements, such as that I am "in hysterical support of [[WP:NPOV|POV]] regarding the men's game". You're wasting everyone's time by being pretentious and deliberately misrepresenting what people say. Get a bloody life. [[User:Lukeno94|<font color="Navy">Luke</font><font color="FireBrick">no</font><font color="Green">94</font>]] [[User talk:Lukeno94#top|<i>(tell Luke off here)</i>]] 18:18, 2 December 2013 (UTC) |
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Well, I don't see "hysterical" or "ranting". But all Laura has done is prove the womens national football team exists, which absolutely no-one disputes at all. But WP:COMMONNAME prefers "names [which] will be the most recognizable and the most natural" and WP:POVNAME suggests "Article titles and redirects should anticipate what readers ''will type as a first guess'' and balance that with ''what readers expect to be taken to''" (this is a quite common, standard way of disambiguating articles with the same name). So the question is what would most readers expect to be taken to when searching for "Australia national football team"? I (and others) am strongly inclined to believe it is generally the men's team, which has by far the highest profile, support, TV coverage etc. Is it sexist or non-neatral to say this? I'm not sure it is. [[User:Sionk|Sionk]] ([[User talk:Sionk|talk]]) 11:58, 2 December 2013 (UTC) |
Well, I don't see "hysterical" or "ranting". But all Laura has done is prove the womens national football team exists, which absolutely no-one disputes at all. But WP:COMMONNAME prefers "names [which] will be the most recognizable and the most natural" and WP:POVNAME suggests "Article titles and redirects should anticipate what readers ''will type as a first guess'' and balance that with ''what readers expect to be taken to''" (this is a quite common, standard way of disambiguating articles with the same name). So the question is what would most readers expect to be taken to when searching for "Australia national football team"? I (and others) am strongly inclined to believe it is generally the men's team, which has by far the highest profile, support, TV coverage etc. Is it sexist or non-neatral to say this? I'm not sure it is. [[User:Sionk|Sionk]] ([[User talk:Sionk|talk]]) 11:58, 2 December 2013 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 18:18, 2 December 2013
Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN) | ||||||||||||
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This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN.
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Case | Created | Last volunteer edit | Last modified | ||||
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Title | Status | User | Time | User | Time | User | Time |
Neith | In Progress | Potymkin (t) | 23 days, 8 hours | Potymkin (t) | 1 days, 16 hours | A. Parrot (t) | 1 days, 9 hours |
Kuči | Closed | Setxkbmap (t) | 5 days, 6 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 1 days, 7 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 1 days, 7 hours |
Kyoto International Junior and Senior High School | Closed | Meganinja202 (t) | 5 days, 2 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 3 days, 9 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 3 days, 9 hours |
Defense of Sihang Warehouse | New | Adachi1939 (t) | 4 days, 10 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 1 days, 14 hours | Adachi1939 (t) | 9 hours |
Joseph Barbera | Closed | Whatsupkarren (t) | 3 days, 10 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 3 days, 5 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 3 days, 5 hours |
Dominika Banevič | Closed | 88.216.164.52 (t) | 2 days, 16 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 days, 8 hours | Robert McClenon (t) | 2 days, 8 hours |
If you would like a regularly-updated copy of this status box on your user page or talk page, put {{DRN case status}} on your page. Click on that link for more options.
Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 22:46, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
Current disputes
Carolina-Cleson rivalry
Closed discussion |
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Talk:Shusha
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Talk:Shusha (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
- Grandmaster (talk · contribs)
- Hablabar (talk · contribs)
- Brandmeister (talk · contribs)
- Roses&guns (talk · contribs)
- Zimmarod (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
A detailed explanation was provided here by another user. In short, there's a long running dispute at talk of the article with regard to the foundation of the town. While it is generally accepted (including by major encyclopedias) that the town was founded in 1752, there are also a few primary sources of questionable reliability that may suggest otherwise. In my opinion, presenting the early foundation as a fact despite this view being in minority and contrary to the generally accepted view being the mid-18th century foundation is a violation of WP:WEIGHT. The issue requiring a resolution is how to present the conflicting views on the foundation of the town in accordance with the wiki rules.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
The issue was reported by one of the involved editors to WP:FTN, but it did not generate any outcome.
How do you think we can help?
An outside view and an active involvement of the wider wiki community would be very helpful.
Responding briefly to Hablabar, if pre-1752 foundation is a widely accepted opinion in the international scholarly community, you should have no problems finding a bunch of third party secondary sources supporting this viewpoint. So far you only refer to primary sources, reliability of some of which is highly questionable. But as Brandmeister convincingly demonstrated, all the major encyclopedias and other third party secondary sources point to 1752 foundation by Panah Ali khan. Now if there are different views on the subject of foundation, then according to WP:Weight all notable viewpoints need to be presented in accordance to their weight. As for the "composite timeline" mentioned by Hablabar, it is nothing but WP:OR and WP:Synth, where he merged two mutually exclusive views to present as a fact the existence of the town in medieval times, while this view is clearly not shared by most of the sources. Grandmaster 21:04, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
- the existence of the town in medieval times and the 1752 foundation by Panah Ali khan are not mutually exclusive, because pre-1752 mentions refer to town and fort, while 1752 references point to a settlement that was slated to evolve into a city in the 19th c. Your sources are in minority not those which talk about pre-1752. Hablabar (talk) 03:33, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- That is your personal interpretation of the sources and as such is a WP:OR. If a source says that the city was founded in 1752, you cannot imply anything more than it actually says, and combine it with others to imply things that the source did not say. That is a violation of WP:Synth, which holds: Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Plus, there are sources that say that the town was built on an empty spot, so claiming as a fact something that contradicts other sources is not in line with the rules. In addition, the most primary sources claiming pre-1752 foundation refer to the nearby village by the same name, and not the town of Shusha, and the secondary academic sources supporting this view are lacking. Grandmaster 19:18, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Hablabar
The dispute arises from User:Grandmaster mischaracterizes the situation as an issue of WP:Weight in order to avoid the creative handling of timeline. He says that ostensibly the majority of sources say that Shusha was established in 1752. However, the credibility of primary sources making such statements is dubious, as demonstrated on talk pages in Shusha. Also, spinning the discussion around the majority or minority of sources can be viewed as WP:OR, unless there is a secondary source discussing the majority or minority issue in explicit terms. As it was demonstrated, mentioning the alleged establishment of Shusha in the 18th century does not override the evidence that an earlier town and fort existed long before the upgrade of Shusha into an urban settlement in the 18th century. WP:Weight, WP:FRINGE do not support the apportion of sources into "majority" and "minority," and WP:BALANCE and WP:OR invalidate this apportioning. If all mentioned sources supporting the notion of an earlier creation of the city are counted, the view about the 18th century establishment can be well a minority view, if one follows the logic of the Grandmaster/Brandmesiter duo. I suggest to return to the previous version where a composite timeline is put in place, and discrepancies are explained on the side. Hablabar (talk) 19:54, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Brandmeister
I agree with the above that the issue at stake is how to present the conflicting pre-1750s version in the article and whether that version should be treated in accordance with WP:WEIGHT. Personally I found it difficult to find any mention of Shusha before the 1750s in reliable sources, including all encyclopedias which tackle this issue. According to some sources from the opposing camp's version, there was already a fortress in Shusha before 1750s and it was ceded to Panah Ali Khan, but it contradicts the 1750s version, which says that the town's only fortress was built by Panah Ali Khan. This latter version is confirmed particularly by the inscription on the wall of the town's mosque and some primary sources, quoted in the article. Brandmeistertalk 12:42, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Roses&guns
Summary of dispute by Zimmarod
I think Proudbolsahye's suggestion expressed here [1] is reasonable and we can modify the text per his suggestion. At the same time, Grandmaster's refusal to cooperate and his attitude "My way or no way" should be be taken note of by administrators. Zimmarod (talk) 15:58, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
Talk:Shusha discussion
24 hour closing notice: In light of the fact that several significant participants in this dispute have chosen not to participate here (as is their right), there's not much we can do. This will be closed as futile unless those editors choose to give opening statements before 17:00 UTC on November 27, 2013. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 17:18, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
- I left additional notes today for some people who have been active at Shusha and hope there may be a response. EdJohnston (talk) 16:38, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks T-man and Ed for your efforts but it seems participation is lacking and so I am closing this case. Please let me know if have any questions or objections. Thanks! -- — Keithbob • Talk • 14:59, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- I would like to ask to keep this case open, so that we could get more involvement from the wiki community. I think discussing and trying to find a solution is better than edit warring, and leaving this issue unresolved could result in resumption of edit warring. It would also be helpful if editors checking this page could provide their opinions so that the issue could be resolved in accordance with the wiki rules. Thanks. Grandmaster 19:18, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, discussing is always better than edit warring. User:TransporterMan? Is there enough participation now to move ahead? I'll leave it open and let you do the close if you feel it is stale. Best, -- — Keithbob • Talk • 00:57, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- I think so and I've removed the closing notice. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 15:41, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, discussing is always better than edit warring. User:TransporterMan? Is there enough participation now to move ahead? I'll leave it open and let you do the close if you feel it is stale. Best, -- — Keithbob • Talk • 00:57, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- I would like to ask to keep this case open, so that we could get more involvement from the wiki community. I think discussing and trying to find a solution is better than edit warring, and leaving this issue unresolved could result in resumption of edit warring. It would also be helpful if editors checking this page could provide their opinions so that the issue could be resolved in accordance with the wiki rules. Thanks. Grandmaster 19:18, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
First Indochina War
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- First Indochina War (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
- Mztourist (talk · contribs)
- Darkness Shines (talk · contribs)
- TheTimesAreAChanging (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
Previous consensus was that the outcome in the Infobox should not state that the result was a Viet Minh victory as the war took place in three countries: Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia and the outcome decided at the Geneva Conference saw the partition of Vietnam, the independence of Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos and the departure of the French. It is simplistic to describe it as a Viet Minh victory, particularly as the Viet Minh were forced to settle for control of only North Vietnam. Recently some Users have changed the infobox to Viet Minh victory and they seek to support this change with a variety of POV or otherwise non-reliable sources, including out of context or shorthhand quotes (lacking any quality analysis) from authors who are not scholars of the First Indochina War. There are a limited number of reliable sources for the outcome of the First Indochina War and the majority do not say that it was a Viet Minh victory.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
Extensive discussion on the Talk Page
How do you think we can help?
Independent evaluation of quotes and RS
Summary of dispute by Darkness Shines
Viet Minh won, sources say they won, the sources are reliable. Darkness Shines (talk) 11:57, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by TheTimesAreAChanging
Darkness Shines was certainly right to revert this edit, in which Mztourist alters sourced material simply because he disagrees with it. The facts are not in dispute: The Viet Minh achieved military victory but suffered political defeat. After looking at this a bit more closely, I can understand why Mztourist would want to omit the "victory" label altogether in favor of a more nuanced description, but misrepresenting sources (changing the source's "Viet Minh victory" to "French defeat") is not an ideal solution. I don't have much experience working on comparable infoboxes, but I would like to know how other war articles handle this type of problem. Is "victory" commonly used to summarize results? Does the failure of the victorious party to achieve all of their war aims impact the results summary?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 19:04, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
First Indochina War discussion
Welcome to the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. I am a regular volunteer (and the current coordinator) here. I'd like to say a few words before this kicks off because I see a procedural snag. Mztourist claims that there was a prior consensus which established the version of the results box before this edit by Darkness Shines which attempts to introduce the Viet Minh victory. There was, indeed, a substantial prior discussion here which resulted in that version, which has been in the article for several months. That discussion included the Viet Minh victory question. Here's the problem from DRN's point of view: Under this section of the Consensus policy, if there was a prior consensus — and I believe that there was, especially since there were other editors (AustralianRupert and Anotherclown) who supported Mztourist's position there — then the only way the article text can be changed in a way contrary to that prior consensus is by the formation of a new consensus. That means that this DRN discussion can only be productive if, given the current participants, Mztourist can be convinced to change his mind, perhaps with a DRN volunteer's assistance though it is also possible that the volunteer will remain neutral or, of course, side with Mztourist. If Darkness Shines and TheTimesAreAChanging do not feel that to be likely, then their only practical choices are to either drop the effort to include the text or to file a RFC at the article talk page to try to bring other editors from the community into the discussion, in which case this DRN listing will be closed. On the other hand, we can move forward with discussion here if they think that they can change Mztourist's mind. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 17:40, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
- I see no prior consensus to remove this at that link, I see various people being worn down by attrition, that is not a consensus. We do not remove reliably sourced content because one guy don't like it. Darkness Shines (talk) 11:00, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
- abbreviated out of context statements by authors who are not experts on the Indochina War are not RS Mztourist (talk) 05:20, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
- TheTimesAreAChanging says the facts are not in dispute and the Viet Minh acheived military victory. That is simply incorrect, the Viet Minh won several decisive battles, but they did not militarily win the war. The war didn't end April 1975 style with the Viet Minh capturing Hanoi and Saigon, it ended (like many modern wars do) at the negotiating table at Geneva, where the Viet Minh accepted partition and control of only North Vietnam. Those are the facts. The other point to note is that Indochina War means the war in 3 countries - Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos, the Viet Minh won in northern Vietnam not anywhere else. Saying the Viet Minh won the Indochina War is the same as saying the North Vietnamese won the Vietnam War, something that TheTimesAreAChanging has corrected several times recently. The reason why I suggested "French defeat" was because I was growing weary of this debate and sought an outcome statement that might be acceptable. Mztourist (talk) 05:20, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
- abbreviated out of context statements by authors who are not experts on the Indochina War are not RS Mztourist (talk) 05:20, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
- I'll try and assist as a volunteer, as it seems this section hasn't received any attention in about a week. What is the current status of the dispute? It seems to me that an accurate overview of the conflict's outcome should be posted in the "result" field; what do participants believe is accurate here, based on WP:RS? —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 01:13, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- I had understood that based on TransporterMan's comments above that he agreed that there was an existing consensus and that parties who wished to diverge from that consensus should "either drop the effort to include the text or to file a RFC at the article talk". Darkness Shines made no constructive response to this and has not filed the RFC and so I assumed that he accepted this, however when I deleted "Viet Minh victory" to reinstate the previous consensus he reverted this and continues to try to push non-RS references. Mztourist (talk) 17:39, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
Karna's talk page
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
- Pinkfloyd11 (talk · contribs)
- Abecedare (talk · contribs)
- Dharmadhyaksha (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
Basically, there is disagreement over the length and sourcing of the Karna article. While I think we all agree that the article can be shortened by changing prose, the primary disagreement is over content. One side is contending that the article is too boring, too long, and is violating wikipedia policy by including primary sources. The other side is contending that while the prose could be bettered to deviate from in-universe view, the article may be required to be long to fit wikipedia guidelines on building a fictional character biography. Also, that primary sources can be used in an article to describe "plot" of a story, and just not in analysis or interpretation.
@Dharma:
- Consensus is not determined by counting heads. Yes, you asked me to stay out of it for a week. I then proposed certain guidelines for you to follow in that week. You never responded and proceeded with edits that violated those conditions. Yet I still did not revert anything and tried to engage y'all with little result. I think in your desire to avoid "mumbo jumbo", you end up providing no examples and no context. Hence, your arguments devolve into "content should be "x way" because "x way" is good, because "x way" is good. Pinkfloyd11 (talk) 07:49, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
- Maybe this isn't the place for it, but stop with the Personal Attacks, remember Wikipedia:Etiquette and don't bite the newcomers. Pinkfloyd11 (talk) 20:45, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
- I would hardly call any of those things that I did complicated or requiring experience. It is wikipedia, not the cracking of CIA code. Pinkfloyd11 (talk) 16:24, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
- Maybe this isn't the place for it, but stop with the Personal Attacks, remember Wikipedia:Etiquette and don't bite the newcomers. Pinkfloyd11 (talk) 20:45, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
I've posted to the talk page per BRD, referencing specific examples and referencing wikipedia guidelines. Some of my contentions really haven't been answered. The editors in questioned have expressed their frustration at the length of my posts. They've gone ahead and done some very massive edits without discussion. They've suggested I go to this board. I've wanted to avoid it, but they aren't leaving me much choice. Of course this is only "my" side.
How do you think we can help?
Maybe clarify the wikipedia guidelines relevant to this dispute? Help judge what kind of plot content is relevant to the analysis? Answer the question if articles like the one in type have a set length limit?
Fundamentally, I want them to engage in conversation with me. A lot of what I am hearing is "primary sources are bad because they are bad" or "delete content because it should be deleted". They want me to refute their specific points while not expecting the same of themselves....
Summary of dispute by Abecedare
- Background
The article is about a character from the Indian epis Mahabharata and the dispute as I see it is regarding how much space should be devoted to simple character bio based on (translations or paraphrases of) the primary source (ie, the Mahabharata) versus what secondary sources have said on the subject. For future reference, the starting point for discussion was this version of the article.
- My view
Essentially copying from my post on the article talk page:
- The article needs drastic pruning from the in-universe mess that it currently is (On a quick look, sections 2-7 need to be combined into a single 2-4 paragraph summary.) The aim of an encyclopedic article such is this one is not to to provide a cliffs note version of Mahabharata, but rather to concentrate on what modern scholars have had to say about the subject; his portrayal; possible inspirations and archetypes; cultural, literary and religious significance etc. Quotes and paraphrases from Mahabharata should be very limited, comparable to say a plot section of a well developed movie or book article
Here is a sample list of high quality secondary sources on the subject that can used to improve the article by any interested editor. I may give it a try, but will probably not get to it till December.
- Suggestion
I think WP:ADOPT or WP:30 would be better avenues for resolving the issues, but have no objection if DRN is preferred by Pinkfloyd11, since an "outside opinion" can often be helpful. Note though that there have been two previous such attempts:
- I myself entered the picture after seeing this post on the Hinduism Project Noticeboard, and initially commented on the article talk page
- User:Mdebellis responded to an earlier post at the Teahouse and left this comment
Lets hope, the third time is a charm! :-)
Summary of dispute by Dharmadhyaksha
@Pinkfloyd11: I had left the article to allow you to do whatever pleased you. You said we should have consensus and do nothing without that. Two more editors, and the only two present there beside you and me, are okay with the way i am going towards cleaning this article. Thats WP:CONSENSUS dear. In fact, they both suggested that the article should be deleted and started from stub again which i felt unnecessary. Further to that, on 22nd Nov i asked you to stay out of the business for a week (that's generally 7 days on Earth). There is no dispute at all to run to the DRN; at least yet. Come back after 7 days when the article is ready. And remember WP:WALL. No one reads all this mumbo jumbo. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 05:41, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
- With a click, any version of the article can be restored any time. Only if you could keep out and let other editors work, you would know what we are doing. There is so much fuss you created and that too without knowing whats in my or other's mind. So quit wasting everyone's time and edit something else; or better still just go away forever. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 12:28, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
- Newcomer? 14 days back you were using dabsolver and creating new articles. If you consider yourself old enough to create articles directly in article space, i would think you are exceptionally good or a sock of some blocked account and not a actual newcomer. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 13:03, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Karna discussion
- I'm Theodore, a DRN volunteer. I will assist with this discussion, if participants are still interested in holding one. As I am also involved in three other ongoing discussions, my responses may be somewhat delayed; however, I will try to be as punctual as possible. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 03:54, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- The editor who filed this is inactive. That's how the dispute is resolved i suppose. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 04:12, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo
Closed discussion |
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Deaths in 2013
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Deaths in 2013 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
Dispute overview
At Deaths in 2013, there is a dispute over inclusion of well-known related people in the blurb, names which I contend help identify the person, but are objected to by the other editor. Discussion on the talk page, as usual, has yielded just one other opinion (split between the two examples in this case) from one of the other regular editors of the page.
The cases are:
- Edmund Reggie, 87, American politician and Louisiana municipal judge.
or
- Edmund Reggie, 87, American politician and Louisiana municipal judge, Ted Kennedy's father-in-law.
and
- Diane Disney Miller, 79, American philanthropist, complications from a fall.
or
- Diane Disney Miller, 79, American philanthropist and daughter of Walt Disney, complications from a fall.
I contend that the second instance of both cases helps the reader know who the person was – a primary question in the minds of those reading death announcements, particularly here, where there are so many names that are unrecognizable to a given reader because of the global coverage. The vast majority of WP:RS include the additional information in the article headline.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
None.
How do you think we can help?
Bring enough neutral, objective opinions to form a real consensus.
Deaths in 2013 is clearly WP:OWNed by a very small number of users. Discussions on the article and user talk pages rarely get more than one other contributor, and the "outsider" routinely gives up. The insider routinely gets their way through persistence. Either nobody else reads the talk page of this highly-visited page, nobody else cares, or nobody else wants to fight what seems to often be a futile battle.
Summary of dispute by WWGB
Deaths in 2013 discussion
- I will assist with this discussion, following statements from all involved parties. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 22:12, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
- Closing notice: I will close the discussion if the other party doesn't respond by Tuesday, December 3. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 21:23, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- I note the complainant wants to "bring enough neutral, objective opinions to form a real consensus". That is not the purpose of WP:DRN. WWGB (talk) 00:55, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- Perhaps a request for comment or a third opinion request may be more beneficial than this forum. In either case, an external viewpoint (or multiple viewpoints) will be provided. The goal here at DRN is to allow participants to talk out their problems, and try to reach consensus, in a moderated forum. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 01:02, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers
Closed discussion |
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Australia national association football team
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
- Australia national association football team (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Users involved
- LauraHale (talk · contribs)
- 2nyte (talk · contribs)
- PeeJay2K3 (talk · contribs)
- HiLo48 (talk · contribs)
- Clavdia chauchat (talk · contribs)
- Sionk (talk · contribs)
- Jmorrison230582 (talk · contribs)
- Lukeno94 (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
Proposal to rename the article "Australia men's national association football team" on the basis there is a women's national team too. Proposer argued the name is innaccurate, others argued the current name is sexist, opponents argue it is normal WP:PRIMARYTOPIC disambiguation, born out by evidence and would have impact on every other sports article.
Discussion has become increasingly very heated with poor language and personal insults from several people, particularly from some of the 'support' camp. How should the issue be resolved? (Suggestions have been put forward that it should be taken to a general higher-level discussion rather than piecemeal article name-changing, but WikProject Football isn't a favoured option at all)
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
Suggested articles be moved to "Socceroos" and "Matildas", their common names. I was initially halfway between the two camps and was trying to grasp a policy based reason to support a name change. Unfortunately driven into the 'oppose' camp by the intransigence and name calling.
How do you think we can help?
Suggest an alternative forum? Discussion is now difficult to navigate or comprehend because of its great length, so I don't know how effective an RFC would be (though maybe an option). If I knew the solution I wouldn't have come here.
Summary of dispute by LauraHale
- Also, there are other people involved on the side of the rename in favour of the following WP:PRECISE, WP:NPOV, WP:UDUE and WP:V and who are not included on this list. Why are Rushton2010 , @The-Pope:, @Clavdia chauchat:, @Hmlarson: not on this list? It basically casts the problem as a few well meaning football articles against two people. This is clearly not the case. --LauraHale (talk) 09:57, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
...or Simeone001, SuperJew, Giant Snowman and Raystorm? I simply included people that had engaged at length in the argument, rather than people that had succinctly commented only once and made their position clear in their comments (either for or against).Sionk (talk) 12:40, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
- Frankly, coming here appears to be an example taking the "dispute" to another level. People opposing the move have been repeatedly asked to provide Wikipedia policies to support their positions. They have only been able to cite WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, where an abundance of sources and WP:PRECISE demonstrate that the men's team is not the primary topic. Rather than work through policies, pillars and guidelines to support a position, we are brought here. Where are the sources that in anyway suggest that the men's team is the primary topic when it comes to WHICH national team recognised by FIFA, the AOC, FFA, ASC, SBS, ABC, the Sydney Morning Herald is the one that says the men's team is the primary topic? These sources all recognise two national teams for Australia and WP:PRECISE implies that when you have ambiguity like this, precision should be striven for. It takes nothing away from the men's game of soccer in Australia to precisely identify which team is being talked about. There isn't one source that supports this position to the extent that WP:PRECISE and other policies should be ignored. This "dispute" exists because WP:NPOV and WP:V are being ignored and sources are not being provided to support the oppose rename rationale. @Sionk: and others are worried that following WP:NPOV and WP:V will result in "false equivalence" between the men's game and the women's game. --LauraHale (talk) 17:04, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by 2nyte
Summary of dispute by PeeJay
My issue with this discussion is that it has the potential to affect articles other than just the one about the Australia national football team, and the user who proposed the move ignored suggestions from the previous RM (also started by her) to take the matter to a more central location. Any suggestion that this RM affects only one page is preposterous. – PeeJay 01:44, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by HiLo48
I feel that one could summarise the Oppose arguments in two ways. One is given by the proposer above - It "...would have impact on every other sports article". That's clearly nonsense. There are already many examples of men's teams with and without that word. Changing the one in question would not force change anywhere else. Nonsense arguments are very frustrating, and inevitably generate heat. The other Oppose argument seems to be that the men's team is the more important, and doesn't need clarification. That's not the case legally, depends on Google hit counts (always a dodgy approach), and obviously inflammatory. The Opposers really seem opposed to change because they're opposed to change, another heat generator. HiLo48 (talk) 01:08, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
- Since I wrote the above, we've already had an opposer write "Any suggestion that this RM affects only one page is preposterous." That's just silly, provocative, and ignores what I wrote. The latter, ignoring what I wrote, is even more provocative, and happens all the time with the opposers in this discussion. HiLo48 (talk) 02:29, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
- Since the above refers to a comment I made, it's only right that I should respond: I did not ignore what you wrote, I responded to it in the negative, in accordance with my opinion on the subject. You need to get over yourself and realise that your opinion is not the only one that counts, and that if people disagree with you, it's because they have the right to think for themselves, not because they want to get your goat. I mean, really... – PeeJay 04:00, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
- You need to give a bloody good reason for your different opinion, not just state it. I have given very clear reasons for mine. One of the biggest problems here is the poor discussion skills of soccer obsessives. They simply have to argue against change, without rational reason. It's no wonder discussion becomes heated. HiLo48 (talk) 06:11, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
- The oppose was not based on any policy rationale (other than the men's game is superior to the women's game). Indeed, it asks for non-policy views about the alleged superiority of the men's game to be elevated above WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE, WP:PRCISE, WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. --LauraHale (talk) 09:51, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
- You need to give a bloody good reason for your different opinion, not just state it. I have given very clear reasons for mine. One of the biggest problems here is the poor discussion skills of soccer obsessives. They simply have to argue against change, without rational reason. It's no wonder discussion becomes heated. HiLo48 (talk) 06:11, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
- Since the above refers to a comment I made, it's only right that I should respond: I did not ignore what you wrote, I responded to it in the negative, in accordance with my opinion on the subject. You need to get over yourself and realise that your opinion is not the only one that counts, and that if people disagree with you, it's because they have the right to think for themselves, not because they want to get your goat. I mean, really... – PeeJay 04:00, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Clavdia chauchat
This is something which comes up again and again. The last time it was after Wikipedia had been publicly shamed by some editors' sexist treatment of female novelists (by ghettoizing them into subcategories). Then as now the move had widespread support and was backed in policy but was derailed and ultimately blocked by WP:FOOTBALL editors. Here the 'no' campaign is basically WP:FOOTBALL +1 (User:Sionk, whose above characterization of the dispute is very far from neutral). The situation where a handful of editors from a very, very narrow demographic assume that their WP:LOCALCONSENSUS should win the day obviously causes frustration. Not only that but the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC argument, in my opinion misses the point: If popularity and coverage really trumped clarity, precision, neutrality, consistency etc. etc. then we'd have one England national team, with hatnotes to the cricket, rugby and all other teams. Ultimately, this matter will keep coming up so deserves much wider input. I've got no opinion on the soccer/football or Australia/n things. I did think edit warring out the NPOV tags while a valid discussion was ongoing was particularly disrespectful and egregious. Clavdia chauchat (talk) 13:31, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
- To suggest that the term "England national team" refers primarily to the football team is a gross misstatement of fact, and no one would ever seriously suggest that the article about the football team should occupy a page titled England national team. I think this is a case of argumentum ad absurdum, Clavdia. – PeeJay 13:58, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Sionk
I can see why the proposer of the name change has a problem with the current article - it makes little references at all in the lede to explain the article is about the men's team (I added "men's"). But this is a common situation with most national football team articles. In most situations the male football team is extremely dominant in the media and public profile, in this particular example "Australia national football team" is synonymous with meaning the men's team. On the basis "Australia national football team" will be a common search term for the men's team, based on WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, I'm inclined to favour the current means of disambiguation. To blame Wikipedia for inequality in football would be the 'tail wagging the dog'.
As for the reasons behind the dispute, well, the proposer accuses anyone who doesn't agree with her of not listening, then repeats her argument, also tag-bombing the article. Two others use insults quite freely (as soon as I voted 'Oppose' I became "sexist", "male" and "chauvinist") and prefer to personalise the discussion. Treating all disagreement as an attack on women will only back amenable editors into a corner. There is some distrust of the proposal because of its piecemeal change-by-stealth, while equally there is a distrust of WikiProject Football ("circle jerk") by the other side. Sionk (talk) 01:30, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
NB I was unaware of the previous lengthy discussion involving most of the same contributors - the arguments seem well rehearsed and the positions entrenched. Sionk (talk) 19:50, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
- You're no doubt also unaware of the five(!) threads I recently deleted from my Talk page, all started by soccer nuts who think that's a way of making me change my mind! LOL. HiLo48 (talk) 00:11, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Jmorrison230582
I actually have some sympathy for the suggestion that Australia national association football team should be moved to Australia men's national soccer team (naming consistently with the US and Canada). The Australia men's team has only qualified for the World Cup a few times, whereas the women's team has qualified for most World Cups (in a younger sport) and has performed reasonably well at the last two. I believe Australia is more similar to Canada or the US in this regard than the major European or South American national teams, which have long histories in the men's game. However, I do believe that in Australia the men's team is the primary topic, based on media coverage (e.g. the most recent' women's team game wasn't televised in Australia).
The problem I have is that none of the arguments for moving the article appear to be based on whether or not the men's team is the primary topic. Instead we are told to disregard that guideline simply because a women's team exists and thus having a men's team article as the primary topic is not a neutral representation. I can't accept this because that would logically mean moving every national team article to a gender specific title, even in extreme cases where one team (e.g. 1. New Zealand men's rugby union, 2. India men's cricket, 3. Brazil men's football) has far more coverage and notability than the other. I believe that WP:NPOV means we have to treat subjects proportionately, which means that some national teams in some sports will be the primary topic. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 08:21, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Lukeno94
- This is one of the most ridiculous "debates" I've ever been involved in. I have stated, as many others have, that Laura should've started a discussion on WP:FOOTBALL with regards to where all national football team articles are located; a single article move request is doomed to fail as it would contradict the existing global consensus. From there on in, it has degenerated into a farcical mudslinging contest, initially started by Laura, HiLo and Clavdia, which the likes of myself and other users have ended up reacting to in equally unhelpful ways. The fact that these users seem utterly incapable of actually reading other people's posts, much less responding to them in a helpful manner, has contributed to most of the problem; Laura has constantly spun things round and round in circles by ignoring the answers to her questions, and instead repeating her questions; Clavdia and HiLo have contributed very little but inflammatory content, for the most part (although, at least HiLo did bring up a valid question about which word out of Australia/Australian is more appropriate for the title). Perhaps Laura's worst actions are to edit-war (via tag teaming with Clavdia) in two tags (NPOV and UNDUE) that are rejected by the consensus of most editors, and are simply WP:POINTy additions, into the article itself. This is despite the fact that she has openly admitted her issue is with the title, and therefore this aspect is simply a distraction in order to enforce her views strongly. I should also note that Laura has previously attempted a move of a whole bunch of Australian articles via RM back in 2011, which was soundly rejected as well (two page moves by another user a year later have directly contradicted said consensus, without the formation of a new one). Finally, I should state that I have no issue with the presence of the word "men's" being in the title, or with it staying at the same location as it is currently; however, I do strongly object to the underhanded backdoor tactics that Laura and her tag-team have used, and indeed still are using. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 01:26, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Australia national association football team discussion
- I'll be assisting with the discussion. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 00:57, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
I've noticed a few things I'd like to point out before we go any further.
- Does everyone feel that this is the appropriate venue for this dispute? I think a DRN discussion might be useful, but both sides seem very steadfast in their viewpoints. If we begin a discussion here, the goal should be to hammer out some kind of consensus. If participants feel that this might be impossible, formal mediation might be better.
- If we proceed here, is there any interest in discussing the Australia vs. Australian issue? The main point of contention seems to be the men's/women's dispute, but I'd be happy to address both.
Thanks, and feel free to comment below. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 01:30, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, entrenched views. Good luck! My personal view is that article's title should read "Australian national men's soccer team". So, "Australian" rather than "Australia" because it's how most people talk and write about the team, "men's" for obvious clarity and equal treatment with the more successful women's team, and "soccer" because that's the single, unambiguous, universally understood, common name for the game in Australia. Nobody calls it "Association football" in Australia. More than you expected? Maybe. But you asked. HiLo48 (talk) 02:09, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- Sounds good. I've divided the space below into three separate sections for the individual disputes. I think the men's/women's issue is the primary one we should address, but discussing the other areas won't hurt. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 03:05, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- I am not sure this is the best place to discuss things. This appears to be an attempt to circumvent consensus by delaying a move proposal based on a non-policy decision based on an inherent POV situation. I'd be game if we could see some indication that there was acknowledgement of other policies and that this issue should not be passed off to the association football project. I have difficulty understanding from their point of view why the football Wikiproject should be involved in the naming decision for Australia men's national goalball team. I am also unclear policy wise why WP:PRECISE and WP:UNDUE and WP:V and WP:NPOV and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC are not relevant to the discussion. These issues for me are fundamental to any possible mediation. I have no interest in expanding the scope beyond single issue of policy, pillars and guidelines and their use solely as it applies to the article where the title is about the national team (of which there are two) and the article text which is about the men. --LauraHale (talk) 07:53, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, entrenched views. Good luck! My personal view is that article's title should read "Australian national men's soccer team". So, "Australian" rather than "Australia" because it's how most people talk and write about the team, "men's" for obvious clarity and equal treatment with the more successful women's team, and "soccer" because that's the single, unambiguous, universally understood, common name for the game in Australia. Nobody calls it "Association football" in Australia. More than you expected? Maybe. But you asked. HiLo48 (talk) 02:09, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- I can't see how this is helpful either. The original dispute that faced extreme difficulties to reach agreement was about the addition of "men's" into the title of the article. The subsequent quibbles are entirely different and can probably be dealt with elsewhere far more amicably. Turning this DRV into a discussion about "Australian" and "association football" is circumventing the main problem. Sionk (talk) 12:20, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- Your interpetation of events is not my interpretation of events. My interpretation of it is this: POV pushers are attempting to circumvent Wikipedia policies, including WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:PRECISE, WP:UNDUE. This is at the heart of the conflict. It is one where mediation should focus on: How we can work together to comply with Wikipedia policies. Would you care to explain your interpretation and application of these policies as they relate to this dispute? --LauraHale (talk) 16:37, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- As several people have objected to continuing the discussion here, I am willing to close it. I'm doubtful an RfC would be very useful here; similar discussions in the past have been fruitless. I would strongly encourage formal mediation. Additionally, I'd suggest thinking about a few questions:
- How can some editors' concerns regarding WP:LOCALCONSENSUS be addressed?
- Exactly what content/topics should be included in these discussions?
- Can any compromises be made with regard to this material?
- Thanks, and my apologies if this discussion has not been as useful as some may have hoped. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 16:47, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- Well, it seems LauraHale, the person originated the page move discussion leading to a heated debate, no longer has a dispute about her proposal. If her dispute is about Wikipedian's general misinterpretation of WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:PRECISE, WP:UNDUE then that definitely needs addressing at a more general forum. If there is a dispute about adding the word "men's" to the article name of Australia national association football team, then it's reasonable for the discussion to take place here and Talk:Australia national association football team. Judging by the perspectives outlined by all the other participants, the main point of disagreement is with the use of the word "men's" in the article title.
- From what I can see, the tangential issues (association football v. football v. soccer) were examples used to show how article page names can vary according to local preferences. Sionk (talk) 22:26, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- I have never had a dispute. This was and is a mischaracterization based on others opposed to the move because of their expressed fears such a move would set a precedent for future article moves. The people opposing the move have largely done so based on their expressed fear, while not providing any rationale beyond those fears, beyond association football Wikiproject consensus trumping all other consensus, and based on the belief that including men in the title would create false equivalence between the men's game and the women's game. My position has always been that a move is needed for the article to bring it in line with policies. There is no change in my position. There is no dispute. There is a need to understand POLICY, PILLAR and GUIDELINE based decisions for opposition to the move that would bring the article title into compliance with the repeated mentioned policies. I still seek understanding. Can it be provided? --LauraHale (talk) 22:53, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- Now you are taking semantics to a new level of daftness. You may not have a dispute with yourself but there are quite a few other people that disagree with you. As a consequence you have been unable to find agreement on your point of view. Otherwise why are you asking for an understanding? I think most people understand where you are coming from but they disagree with your selective interpretation of Wikipedia guidelines. Sionk (talk) 00:39, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- I have never had a dispute. This was and is a mischaracterization based on others opposed to the move because of their expressed fears such a move would set a precedent for future article moves. The people opposing the move have largely done so based on their expressed fear, while not providing any rationale beyond those fears, beyond association football Wikiproject consensus trumping all other consensus, and based on the belief that including men in the title would create false equivalence between the men's game and the women's game. My position has always been that a move is needed for the article to bring it in line with policies. There is no change in my position. There is no dispute. There is a need to understand POLICY, PILLAR and GUIDELINE based decisions for opposition to the move that would bring the article title into compliance with the repeated mentioned policies. I still seek understanding. Can it be provided? --LauraHale (talk) 22:53, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- As several people have objected to continuing the discussion here, I am willing to close it. I'm doubtful an RfC would be very useful here; similar discussions in the past have been fruitless. I would strongly encourage formal mediation. Additionally, I'd suggest thinking about a few questions:
- Your interpetation of events is not my interpretation of events. My interpretation of it is this: POV pushers are attempting to circumvent Wikipedia policies, including WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:PRECISE, WP:UNDUE. This is at the heart of the conflict. It is one where mediation should focus on: How we can work together to comply with Wikipedia policies. Would you care to explain your interpretation and application of these policies as they relate to this dispute? --LauraHale (talk) 16:37, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- I can't see how this is helpful either. The original dispute that faced extreme difficulties to reach agreement was about the addition of "men's" into the title of the article. The subsequent quibbles are entirely different and can probably be dealt with elsewhere far more amicably. Turning this DRV into a discussion about "Australian" and "association football" is circumventing the main problem. Sionk (talk) 12:20, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
Discussion of "men's" and "women's" issue
I have nothing to add beyond my summary above. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 09:32, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- Nor I. A DRN on a specific page move is not anywhere near the global or WikiProject-wide consensus that is really required for this. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 12:26, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- And there's a perfect example of the problem here. The anti-change campaigners have invented this new strategy. They insist that an article about something in Australia cannot be changed without changing the same aspect of every other article about the same sport everywhere in Wikipedia. I can never accept that. If change is the correct thing to do, it must start somewhere. Otherwise we will never change anything. HiLo48 (talk) 20:54, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- I think the WP:POVTITLE policy may be of some assistance here. Additionally, I will close the discussion later this evening, given some participants' objections to continuing it. Formal mediation may be a good choice. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 21:35, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- I would object to any close at this point citing DRN as cause to close it without change. There are clear policy reasons to support the article name having men and the redirect being made into a disambiguation. The rationales for not moving have been "Wikiproject football would need an RfC to do that", which is not policy and any such RfC should not trump local article consensus. There are numerous policies that support a precise gendered title, and no policies or verifiable sources that support the idea of Australia having a single senior national team open to both men and women. Despite requests for understanding what percentage would be adequate to have a dual gendered article, none have been provided. That discussion stalled. --LauraHale (talk) 22:16, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- As usual, you're spouting pure rubbish, HiLo. If it is standard WikiProject or Wikipedia practise to give the titles of everything to a specific format, then any discussion about changing things needs to go to said WikiProject, or through a global channel. And given the common debate of "equivalence", it would be far more beneficial for you three to actually follow the advice given, and try and get all the articles moving to your preferred naming structures, rather than just one article... Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:38, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- Except for the whole fact that Wikiprojects don't set or control policy. Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:46, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- Except for the whole fact that I was saying precisely fuck all about policy there; I was talking about WikiProject-wide standard practise/consensus. The standards for naming ARE generally related to the WikiProject. And in terms of the general naming across all national teams in all sports, then that needs to be a global discussion, not one held for an individual article. I fail to see the relevance of your comment. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:14, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- Articles can have local consensus. Your comments are not based on policy, pillars or guidelines. This lack of understanding about the role of Wikiprojects in terms of their ability to develop project based consensus that trumps policy, pillars and guidelines. You understand that people working on an article can develop local consensus that trumps individual Wikiproject practices? (Also, why you think Wikiproject Association Football should trump the naming practices of Wikiproject Australia articles about national teams is beyond me. That's never been established.) --LauraHale (talk) 22:23, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- I would encourage everyone to try to remain civil during the discussion. I know that most participants have strong views on the issue at hand, but escalating tensions isn't a good idea. With regard to this dispute's impact, I think we can keep it "local". Perhaps, once a conclusion is established regarding this article, further discussions can be held about other titles. The WP:POVNAME policy provides some analysis of non-NPOV article titles. Additionally, closing this discussion does not mean the dispute is "over". Instead, moving this to formal mediation would allow for a more binding decision regarding the disagreement. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 22:59, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- Common name for the team would actually be "Socceroos" for the men and "Matildas" for the women. There are numerous sources where both the women's team and the men's team are both described gender neutrally (as in they are described as the Australian team) and gendered (men's national team, women's national team). No evidence has been offered to suggest WP:POVNAME situation exists, and exists to such an extent that WP:PRECISE should be trumped. WP:POVNAME also doesn't appear to deal with the issue that the current article text for the article violates WP:V and the article text violates WP:NPOV. The men's team is not the national team. The lack of ability to cite policy+pillar to oppose the move and the desire to have a particular Wikiproject view trump a policy+pillar based consensus are why I believe we are here. It is a stall tactic to wear people down. --LauraHale (talk) 23:17, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- As Laura has pointed out (and I tried to point out,) Wikiprojects cannot and do not establish binding practice with regards to article naming conventions. Local consensus absolutely trumps Wikiproject common practice. If Laura wanted to change the name of every single football article, it would be appropriate to have a discussion in a more general forum. If she wants to change the name of a single article, the talk page of that article is a perfectly appropriate place to hold a discussion about it. "Our Wikiproject usually does it this way" is not an argument that can trump... er... anything. Kevin Gorman (talk) 23:20, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- You (both Laura and Kevin) make a number of valid points. As for POVNAME, if a majority of reliable sources call the men's team "the Australian national team", that might help determine consensus. However, if they don't (as Laura suggested), this would be irrelevant. Regarding the impact of a name change, WP:TITLE states that article titles should be consistent with naming conventions. These are not determined at a WikiProject level. If such a convention exists, it should probably be followed. An RfC or village pump discussion may be more conducive if you want to adopt a new convention. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 23:26, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- WP:PRIMARYTOPIC has been continually talked about throughout the discussion. As for COMMONNAME and POVNAME, several people have already described Google search results for Australia national football team which invariably point to the Socceroos well before the Matildas. From what I remember, Laura dismisses PRIMARYTOPIC as not Wikipedia policy, while NPOV is. The question then is, does WP:NPOV (and WP:POVNAME?) support a gendered name change of the article? Personally I'm not convinced it does. In fact POVNAME specifically does not preclude 'Non-neutral but common names'. Sionk (talk) 01:14, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- That's why I brought up POVNAME, as it seemingly accepts titles like the one in question. However, I think reliable sources should substantiate that the current title is the common name. What are your thoughts? —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 01:16, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- I'd like you to provide sources. I have provided multiple sources that show the game is gender segregated by rule. This includes the sport's highest governing body, FIFA. SBS, FFA, ABC (Australia), the Australian Sport Commission all support the team being the men's team. The facebook page for the men's team says they are the men's team. WP:V makes it clear that the team is the men's team, not the national team. Worse yet, there are a multitude of sources that also show the women's team is the an Australian national. POVNAME has no application here. If you have sources to support your particular POV, then please provide them. It would be a massive improvement over the Wikiproject football people. WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE, WP:PRECISE all trump the idea that a non-neutral title is acceptable. You have provided no rationale and no sources. Beyond which, your view would pervert consensus on the talk page to move the article. This is completely unacceptable. --LauraHale (talk)
- Laura, when the hell are you going to get it through your skull that "the Wikiproject football people" are not the only people who have opted for this path, and therefore stop hysterically ranting about the WikiProject's massive wrongs on society and the world? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 08:33, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- Luke, While I assume good faith in your use of hysterical, this word has historically and frequently been used as a way to put women down by implying their views are irrational. Also, the use of my first name alone falls into a similar situation. I would request that you please modify your behavior. That said, when you are going to explain why WP:V and WP:NPOV and WP:PRECISE do not apply here? Will you next engage in profanity and use other ways of condescending to women? --LauraHale (talk) 12:19, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- Are you fucking kidding me? I refer to you as "Laura" because that is the first name of your account, same as I refer to HiLo48 as HiLo, same as people refer to me as Luke. Your attempt at portraying me as sexist is bullshit - I said from the very beginning that I am not opposed to the proposed move; just the way the entire situation has been handled, and the methods you are using, in contrary to what everyone has requested you to do. The fact that you feel the need to sink this low speaks volumes for the desperation in which you feel the need to promote your cause. If you'd started the debate at the Football WikiProject, as you were told to do in the first place, you'd have probably gained a lot more support, without stirring up the enormous drama that you have. I am certainly wondering if this is more an attention-seeking exercise than a sensible move request... Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 12:47, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- Luke, perhaps you need time to calm down. Your use of fucking and your inability to respond rationally with some verifiable sources to support your claim regarding the name being common use indicate you might be hysterical. Luke, can you please get over your hysteria demonstrated through your use of vulgarity and work with me towards a policy based result that upholds Wikipedia's policies regarding verifiability and neutrality? Please stop your irrational and non-policy hysterical repetition of the need for Wikiproject Australia and individual article editors to subvert themselves to Wikiproject Association football. Luke, please be rationale and non-hysterical. We're all here to support Wikipedia´s pillars. --LauraHale (talk) 13:02, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- Read what I wrote properly, or go away. It's been pretty damn obvious from the very beginning that you've been reading little bits of what people have written, and not even attempting to read them properly. The above comment is a shining example of that. Also, WP:NOTCENSORED means I can, and will, continue to use the exact words I choose, and one editor who is too lazy/arrogant to even attempt to read what people write moaning about things won't change that. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 13:22, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- Luke, please stop with your hysterical observations. It is clear to me that you are not familiar Wikipedia policies. Furthermore, it is clear to me that you fail to understand the purpose Wikiprojects. You think that the consensus developed by a few members results in the final say of all things related to the project. Luke, in your hysterical support of POV regarding the men's game, you have ignored the multiple Arbitration cases that said this is patently not true. WP:ARBCOM has said projects cannot do this. Therefor, that point of discussion is a non-started. Wikiprojects are not the final arbitrators. You've been repeatedly told this and you've hysterically repeatedly made the claim of the opposite. Ask the Birds people and the Classical Music people and the US Roads people. They've all been down that road and ArbCom has been pretty consistent on that point. Wikiprojects are not and cannot be the final arbitrator. So please stop pushing this. --LauraHale (talk) 13:48, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- OK, I'll just do the broken record impression again; maybe that way you will be able to read this. I am not opposed to the proposed move; just the way the entire situation has been handled, and the methods you are using, in contrary to what everyone has requested you to do. If you're not going to bother reading that, then don't fucking bother replying with clear bullshit statements, such as that I am "in hysterical support of POV regarding the men's game". You're wasting everyone's time by being pretentious and deliberately misrepresenting what people say. Get a bloody life. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 18:18, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- WP:PRIMARYTOPIC has been continually talked about throughout the discussion. As for COMMONNAME and POVNAME, several people have already described Google search results for Australia national football team which invariably point to the Socceroos well before the Matildas. From what I remember, Laura dismisses PRIMARYTOPIC as not Wikipedia policy, while NPOV is. The question then is, does WP:NPOV (and WP:POVNAME?) support a gendered name change of the article? Personally I'm not convinced it does. In fact POVNAME specifically does not preclude 'Non-neutral but common names'. Sionk (talk) 01:14, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- Except for the whole fact that Wikiprojects don't set or control policy. Kevin Gorman (talk) 21:46, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- I think the WP:POVTITLE policy may be of some assistance here. Additionally, I will close the discussion later this evening, given some participants' objections to continuing it. Formal mediation may be a good choice. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 21:35, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- And there's a perfect example of the problem here. The anti-change campaigners have invented this new strategy. They insist that an article about something in Australia cannot be changed without changing the same aspect of every other article about the same sport everywhere in Wikipedia. I can never accept that. If change is the correct thing to do, it must start somewhere. Otherwise we will never change anything. HiLo48 (talk) 20:54, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
Well, I don't see "hysterical" or "ranting". But all Laura has done is prove the womens national football team exists, which absolutely no-one disputes at all. But WP:COMMONNAME prefers "names [which] will be the most recognizable and the most natural" and WP:POVNAME suggests "Article titles and redirects should anticipate what readers will type as a first guess and balance that with what readers expect to be taken to" (this is a quite common, standard way of disambiguating articles with the same name). So the question is what would most readers expect to be taken to when searching for "Australia national football team"? I (and others) am strongly inclined to believe it is generally the men's team, which has by far the highest profile, support, TV coverage etc. Is it sexist or non-neatral to say this? I'm not sure it is. Sionk (talk) 11:58, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- WP:V trumps common name, and it we were doing WP:COMMONNAME, we would be using Socceroos. Are you now advocating for Socceroos? --LauraHale (talk) 12:19, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
Just for the record, one Australian team is currently ranked 8th and has appeared in every World Cup except the first. One team is ranked 59th. The other has missed lots of World Cups. Want to take a guess football fans as to which team is the better team? --LauraHale (talk) 12:21, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- As already pointed out in my summary. If you had pursued that kind of argument throughout, I may have supported a move to disambiguating the Australia teams by gender. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 13:31, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- The problem is the relative rankings is it pushes a POV regarding the relative merits of one team versus another. We should not be endeavoring to do this on Wikipedia. We should be working towards WP:V and WP:NPOV. I do not understand why pushing the idea that women's football in Australia has a relatively better performance globally than Australia's men should even be a factor given the policy considerations. Can you explain to me why?--LauraHale (talk) 13:41, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
And while at it, WP:V compels me to go to Google. [http://www.google.com/search?q="Australia+national+association+football+team"+-site:wikipedia.org this search for Australia national association football team" without Wikipedia showing up shows that WP:COMMONNAME cannot be used to support the rationale for men only. This claim fails WP:V. Can we get serious and drop the POV pushing for the men's game? --LauraHale (talk) 12:27, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that a search term using quotation marks is particularly helpful, given the various namings used for football / association football / soccer in Australia. I think it is worth noting that the Australian Government describes the (men's) team as "Australia's national football (soccer) team". Jmorrison230582 (talk) 13:31, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
Discussion of "Australia" vs. "Australian" issue
I think this is clear-cut. The name of the team is "Australia". That's what appears on the scoreboard, the media coverage and so on, because the governing body regulations state that the team name must be "an appropriate political and geographical description of the countries or territories of the Members whose teams are involved in the match or competition...". It isn't necessarily an "Australian" team because national teams often use people (either coaches or players who change citizenship) with foreign nationality. There is no requirement for grammatically perfect English in article titles. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 09:32, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- I cannot comprehend Jmorrison's obections. Possible foreign nationality of players is completely irrelevant. It's the team representing Australia. And the simplified heading has allowed this editor to misrepresent the debate. It's not about Australia versus Australian. It's about "Australia...team" versus "Australian...team". The later form is far more common. That's the major point here. HiLo48 (talk) 21:05, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- His objection goes far beyond the actual nationalities of the players; as usual, however, you're happy to just ignore that in order to constantly try and get what you want. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:33, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- You'll really have to explain your concern better. How on earth can a team be an Australia team but not an Australian team? HiLo48 (talk) 02:35, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- I believe the noun adjunct, as seen here, is regularly used in similar articles. According to WP:TITLE, consistency should be a goal with regard to titling. Does this seem OK, or are there still objections to the adjunct? —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 03:03, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- It may be "regularly" used. I haven't noticed it for Australia. And it's definitely not the most common usage in Australia. Australian team would be a far more common construct. And I'd still like to know how a team can be an Australia team but not an Australian team? HiLo48 (talk) 03:41, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- My guess is that the sport-wide, not the national, name is the most consistent. However, that raises the issue of whether that naming norm is appropriate. At any rate, I doubt this DRN will be the most fruitful forum for participants seeking to clarify naming conventions. These would be better addressed in a new RfC, I think. I'm leaning toward closing the discussion tomorrow morning (I'm in the United States) if there are no further objections to doing so. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 04:20, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- Meh. I just follow the tunnel visioned soccer fans to whichever forum they take their arguments. Never did see the point of this one, but nor did I see the point of the five threads recently opened by them on my Talk page to try to convince me I was wrong. It's shame the quality of discussion is so poor wherever we go. HiLo48 (talk) 05:45, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- @Theodore:, I disagree that establishing naming conventions would be the most useful for participants, especially in the context of this discussion being brought here because of the issue regarding the inclusion of gender in the name. Your suggestion appears to that pillars, policies and guidelines should be trumped based on Wikiproject consensus set by the football Wikiproject. Can you explain your policy and pillar based rationale for why the soccer Wikiproject consensus trumps these issues? Especially in the broader context of the reason we were brought here? --LauraHale (talk) 08:19, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, I did not mean to suggest that local consensus trumps any of the other issues. My comments were only meant to guide the discussion forward, as I'm not sure that DRN is the best forum for what you and other editors want to accomplish. I posted a few more thoughts in the subsection below to clarify what my intent was. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 12:34, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- It may be "regularly" used. I haven't noticed it for Australia. And it's definitely not the most common usage in Australia. Australian team would be a far more common construct. And I'd still like to know how a team can be an Australia team but not an Australian team? HiLo48 (talk) 03:41, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- I believe the noun adjunct, as seen here, is regularly used in similar articles. According to WP:TITLE, consistency should be a goal with regard to titling. Does this seem OK, or are there still objections to the adjunct? —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 03:03, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- You'll really have to explain your concern better. How on earth can a team be an Australia team but not an Australian team? HiLo48 (talk) 02:35, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
Discussion of "association football" vs. "soccer"
This is an issue as to which term is more applicable in each country. In the majority of countries just "football" is the dominant term, in a few (e.g. the US) soccer is the dominant term and in some countries (e.g. Australia) both terms are used to a similar extent. I have no strong opinion either way. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 09:32, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- The key issue is that nobody outside Wikipedia actually calls the game "association football". For first time readers it inevitably requires a search for the meaning. We should not do that when there are clearer alternatives. In Australia "soccer" is the single, unambiguous, universally understood, common name for the game. None of those opposing the name "soccer" have been able to say what's wrong with it, just that they oppose it. HiLo48 (talk) 20:59, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- Not true on the "nobody calls the game association football"; several clubs are "association football clubs", and not just "football clubs"; Hull City A.F.C. being a Premier League example of this. The University of Leicester differentiates its teams by "American football" and "association football". With all that being said, I would be inclined to agree that "soccer" is the more prevalent term in Australian circles. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 21:31, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, I'll agree I was primarily talking about the Australian situation with "nobody calls the game Association football", because that's what all of these issues are about, how the game is described IN AUSTRALIA. I hope we don't forever have to begin sentences in this discussion with "IN Australia..." HiLo48 (talk) 21:56, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- When you make the comment The key issue is that nobody outside Wikipedia actually calls the game "association football", then you kinda do have to clarify it, since that sentence explicitly states that no one anywhere bar Wikipedia calls it association football, not that no one in Australia calls it that... Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 22:19, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- According to WP:TITLE, editors should generally adhere to naming conventions when deciding articles' titles. These conventions are determined on a sitewide basis, through an RfC or a Village Pump proposal. If you're participating here, do you feel that an RfC or proposal is necessary? Is there already a sitewide convention that should be adhered to? If not, what should be done about this? These questions may help guide you as you think about this topic. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 23:18, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- There has been an RfC regarding the use of soccer versus association football. The consensus is soccer for articles about the sport in Australia, and association football where it is about Australia versus the rest of the world. (Hence the difference in article names.) The use of soccer situation is not without precedence. The United States, Canada, US Virgin Islands, South Africa, Trinidad and Tobago articles are a few that have soccer in their name. Culturally, these are also countries with domestic football codes where those codes are understood as football, and soccer is known as the game inside the country. (And where European soccer is sometimes described as football.) If this type of behavior was repeated in relation to the USA or Canadian articles, well, it wouldn't because soccer rules the day. --LauraHale (talk) 23:24, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- If this consensus has been clearly established, perhaps the "soccer" title might be appropriate. What do other participants think of this? Are there any other policy-based reasons in favor of either title? —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 23:29, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- Regarding these comments: if participants with differing opinions believe there is no dispute, this is probably not a good forum. The sole focus of this venue is to allow editors to hammer out a dispute in a moderated setting. As discussion below is becoming quite extensive, I'd like to make a decision soon about closing the thread. If participants feel a non-DRN forum to be more appropriate, please let me know. Again, this doesn't mean that the issues will not be addressed. They will be addressed, but in a better forum. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 23:33, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- The conditions to which I felt mediation would be helpful would be in terms of understanding how policies apply to this situation as they applied to the discussion. Rather than discuss WP:V and WP:NPOV, central to Wikipedia, you got personally involved by bringing in new concepts like WP:POVNAME, making a claim and then not substantiating it with sources, and implying you would close the discussion in favour of one side. I'd like deeper understanding as to why FIFA, FFA, ASC, ABS, SBS and others who acknowledge the existence of two national teams segregated based on gender, both listed on pages about the national team in Australia, where by rule the sport is segregated by gender are not considered verifiable? Why a POV that suggests only one team is worth mentioning in the article about the team should be the one that governs both the name and article content about the Australian national team. As a mediator, can you start there? Please? --LauraHale (talk) 08:34, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think I suggested I would close in favor of anyone; a close would merely allow you or another editor to open discussion in a better forum, like RfC (or formal mediation, which could work, also). I may have overstepped by bringing up POVNAME, but it was not intended as a critique of any side's arguments. My only goal in mentioning it was to trigger discussion of its relevance in this situation, as several participants had discussed issues covered by the policy. Also, I thought it might be a useful starting point for a discussion about the name. You make a number of excellent points about sources, but I think a different forum (where you and other editors can work to establish naming conventions) might be the best option. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 12:23, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- As an additional note, I will not close the discussion now. I'll leave a note on the talk page requesting that another volunteer reviews this, and makes a determination at some point later today. —Theodore! (talk) (contribs) 12:42, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, I'll agree I was primarily talking about the Australian situation with "nobody calls the game Association football", because that's what all of these issues are about, how the game is described IN AUSTRALIA. I hope we don't forever have to begin sentences in this discussion with "IN Australia..." HiLo48 (talk) 21:56, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm a regular volunteer here at DRN. Unless there is some issue here which is not within the scope of the issues involved in the suggested move, then this DRN listing isn't really proper under the DRN guideline which says, "We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other dispute resolution forums." Since suggested moves have their own built-in resolution process, the DRN community has always considered them (as we do other forums with such processes, such as AFD) as a form of dispute resolution. While it may look like the SM process is going to stall out or end up with no consensus, a listing here (or at MEDCOM or RFC) is premature until that process is complete. I think this should be closed unless there's something here that I've overlooked. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:54, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
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