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:*Watch out for overuse of the word "Thomson", when "he" would do; eg (now fixed) ''Thomson's financial future became uncertain. Thomson briefly looked into''. [[User:Ceoil|Ceoil]] ([[User talk:Ceoil|talk]]) 09:04, 29 October 2018 (UTC) |
:*Watch out for overuse of the word "Thomson", when "he" would do; eg (now fixed) ''Thomson's financial future became uncertain. Thomson briefly looked into''. [[User:Ceoil|Ceoil]] ([[User talk:Ceoil|talk]]) 09:04, 29 October 2018 (UTC) |
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::*I went through and changed all the instances I thought warranted pronouns. <span style="font-weight:bold;text-shadow:1px 1px 40px black">[[User:Tkbrett|<b><span style="color: #000000;">Tkbrett</span></b>]][[User talk:Tkbrett|<span style="color: #FF0000;"> (✉)</span>]]</span> 21:38, 29 October 2018 (UTC) |
::*I went through and changed all the instances I thought warranted pronouns. <span style="font-weight:bold;text-shadow:1px 1px 40px black">[[User:Tkbrett|<b><span style="color: #000000;">Tkbrett</span></b>]][[User talk:Tkbrett|<span style="color: #FF0000;"> (✉)</span>]]</span> 21:38, 29 October 2018 (UTC) |
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====Tony1==== |
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'''NB Insulting and attempting to discredit reviewers are not regarded acceptable strategies at this forum.''' |
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1a, lead only: |
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*"His painting utilizes broad brush strokes"—the simpler "uses" would be less ungainly. |
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*"and did not display any immediate artistic talent"—consider the simpler wording: "and displayed no immediate artistic talent" |
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*worked ... worked. Perhaps the second one could be "was employed in"? |
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*Is the first comma necessary? "There, he met those who eventually formed the Group of Seven, including J. E. H. MacDonald, Lawren Harris, Frederick Varley, Franklin Carmichael and Arthur Lismer." (Considering you're justifiably OK with no comma in this stretch, later: "paintings such as The Jack Pine and The West Wind have taken a prominent place in the culture of Canada and are some of the country's most iconic pieces of art." |
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*The very next sentence openes with another "there" wording. I can't see an alternative at the moment. |
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*"following the advice of MacDonald"—simpler as: "following MacDonald's advice"? |
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*I didn't like this: "Thomson is often considered an unofficial member with his art typically exhibited with the rest of the Group's." (i) Could we have a comma before the connective "with"? (ii) there are two, close "with"s that have different grammatical functions. (iii) the ending "the Group's" is pretty awkward. An ellipsis right at the end ...? |
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*"Nearly all his work is located in Canada, mainly at the Art Gallery of Ontario in Toronto, the National Gallery of Canada in Ottawa, the McMichael Canadian Art Collection in Kleinburg and the Tom Thomson Art Gallery in Owen Sound."—You might consider "all '''of''' his", but it's a personal thing. Might it be easier to insert a dash after "Canada"? "located in Canada—mainly at ...". "located" is not watertight: it could, I suppose, refer to the subjects of his paintings, rather than "housed in Canada", or similar. But I could live with "located" if you're fine with it, too. |
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I've nit-picked, but it's fine writing indeed. it will be a '''support''', but I'd like to return to look at more. [[User:Tony1|<b style="color:darkgreen">Tony</b>]] [[User talk:Tony1|<span style="color:darkgreen">(talk)</span>]] 14:01, 5 November 2018 (UTC) |
Revision as of 14:01, 5 November 2018
Tom Thomson
Tom Thomson (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
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This article is about Tom Thomson, the Canadian artist inextricably linked with the Group of Seven. Tkbrett (✉) 01:31, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
Image review
- There are a lot of images in this article - somewhat understandable given the topic, but I think we're stretching the bounds of WP:GALLERY
- My basis for this page was the FA for Vincent van Gogh which seems to have a similar number of images (I haven't actually counted so I'm not certain on that). If you have something more specific then let me know and I can work on it. Tkbrett (✉) 07:58, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
- You can take or leave this but if image count become a further issue, and it might;
- File:Thomson, View from the Windows of Grip Ltd.jpg could go as rather uninformative
- Sandbank with Logs, Fall 1916 & The Drive, Winter 1916–17 are similar enough that one only could represent the style
- The "Nocturnes" section doesn't have enough text to justify six image Ceoil (talk) 00:00, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- Suggest adding alt text
- Some of the details provided in captions don't appear to be sourced anywhere, such as his spending habits
- I added more to a sentence w/ a citation for the case you pointed out. Tkbrett (✉) 07:58, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
- Images hosted on Commons should have tags reflecting status in both country of origin and the US - some (eg File:TomThomson23.jpg) do not
- When/where was File:Tom_Thomson.jpg first published? For all newly added tags, check that sufficient information is provided to support them. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:04, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
- Per the Library and Archives Canada entry, File:Tom Thomson.jpg was taken by Franklin Carmichael (died 1945) between 1914 and 1916, so it does not have any copyright issues given that Carmichael died 73 years ago. Tkbrett (✉) 22:51, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
- The tag currently in use requires pre-1923 publication for US PD status. Can that be demonstrated? Check same on other images. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:05, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- Note info below (qualifies for C:Template:PD-old-auto-1996). Tkbrett (✉) 19:16, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
- File:Young_Tom_Thomson.jpg: Thomson is the subject, not the creator
- If the author is unknown, how do we know they died over 70 years ago? When/where was this first published? Same with File:TomThomson23.jpg, File:Profile_of_the_painter_Tom_Thomson_wearing_a_hat.jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:04, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
- All of the images of people (i.e. not paintings) on the page are from Library and Archives Canada and each page indicates "Copyright: Expired," "Restrictions on use: Nil," but not much more info. For example, File:TomThomson23.jpg. I'm not sure which tags to use to indicate that there are no copyright restrictions. Where I should I ask to confirm? Tkbrett (✉) 22:51, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
- You can try WP:MCQ, but I would expect that the LAC indications represent Canadian status, whereas for the purposes of Wikipedia we also need US status. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:05, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- I started a thread in order to get help from people who understand copyright rules better than I do. I'll let you know when I hear back and can clear this up. Tkbrett (✉) 04:25, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- I found instances of the photos being published early enough to qualify for C:Template:PD-old-auto-1996. They meet the criteria of (1) they were first published outside of the U.S., (2) they were published before 1 March 1989 without a copyright notice and (3) they were public domain on the URAA date. I updated the copyright info on the Commons. Here are the publications:
- File:TomThomson23.jpg, LAC, published in Silcox & Town (1977)
- File:Young Tom Thomson.jpg, LAC, published in Murray (1986)
- File:Profile of the painter Tom Thomson wearing a hat.jpg, LAC, published in Murray (1986)
- File:Tom Thomson.jpg, LAC, published in Little (1970), Murray (1986)
- File:Tom Thomson with fish.jpg, LAC, published in Little (1970), Murray (1986)
- File:Tom Thomson, standing on a rock fishing in moving water.jpg, LAC, published in Reid (1975) Tkbrett (✉) 19:16, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
- File:Tom_Thomson_Memorial_Cairn.jpg: what is the copyright status of the plaque? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:10, 27 October 2018 (UTC)
- The plaque was designed and inscribed by J. E. H. MacDonald in 1917 (Hill 2002, p. 142). He died in 1932, so I do not think there are any copyright issues there. Tkbrett (✉) 07:58, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
- We'll need to add a tag to the image description page indicating the copyright status of the plaque. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:04, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
- In this case, we can demonstrate both an author death more than 70 years ago and a publication date before 1923, so the tag that is problematic on the above images would work here. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:05, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Support from Ceoil
Extensive, knowledgeable and wonderfully written article on an artist whom I had previously only known from a few isolated paintings. One quibble, the measurements debacle at the Go-Home cottage doesn't seem like the most inspiring way to open the "artistic peak" section - it breaks flow. I would remove or push up into the last section. Otherwise this is a yard stick for visual arts bios at FAC. The nominator has a lot of ability. Ceoil (talk) 23:38, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
- Measurements debacle moved up. Thank you for the kind words! Tkbrett (✉) 01:04, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks. We get a better sense now at the start of "artistic peak" that he opened up. 05:50, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Other suggestions:
- In the "Early recognition" section, ths detailing of his comings and goings outweigh and mask the more important internal difficulties with shyness he was going through. Similarly by the way details like the price of his rent ($22 a month (equivalent to CAD$480 in 2017)) breaks from the dialogue.
- How exactly should I fix the dialogue breaking? Should I have the inflation calculations included a footnote instead or remove them all together? Tkbrett (✉) 01:04, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- Unless the rent was very high or very low (in which case say it was very high or low), I would cut such detail altogether and stick with the central drama. Ceoil (talk) 01:10, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- I've cut out the inflation calculations for his rent (While I see the $1 rent explicitly mentioned in almost every source and feel surprised at how ridiculously low it sounds, the sources don't seem to go out of their way to say that it's very low). Should I also cut out inflation calcs for purchases of his paintings? (There are three of these currently) Tkbrett (✉) 07:13, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- I would keep the "notes" as brief as possible, as far as cutting down extraneous words were you can.
- I cut out two notes entirely since they seem better suited to their own articles (one on Lawren Harris's WWI experience and the other on William Brodie who probably deserves his own page). I also worked to cut out extraneous words. Tkbrett (✉) 01:04, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- The "Newspaper stories" in the references is unneeded, given they are not used, and we have google. Ceoil (talk) 00:18, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- Maybe more be more judicious and sparing in use of detail such as the following (unless it advances the narrative): Wadland has noted that if this timeline is correct, it would require "an extraordinary canoeist [...] especially on the open water of Georgian Bay, from the mouth of the French to Go-Home Bay (and back again). The difficulty is augmented by the fact of stopping to sketch at intervals along the way."[100] Wadland suggests that Thomson traveled via train at some points and by steamship thereafter.[98] Note this is an example only; I dont want the story bogged down in bio detail or blusterous later recounts.
- I adjusted the sentence you mentioned and cut it down to "Wadland has noted that if this timeline is correct, it would require "an extraordinary canoeist," made further difficult given the constant stopping for sketching. Wadland suggests that Thomson traveled via train at some points and by steamship thereafter." I also cut some others slightly, but for the most part there are still those two paragraphs in the Early recognition (1914–15) section that deal primarily with his location and routes. I'm wondering how much you think they should be cut down, if at all? Tkbrett (✉) 07:13, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- Will do. FFIW, I went through a similar dilemma with Nick Drake, who also suffered from severe shyness and died young. There is a balance between conveying his personal and artist development and recounting his going hither and thither. Cut if not germain, though I get that a lot of it dove tails with his discovery of nature. Ceoil (talk) 09:04, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- I cut out some unnecessarily detailed parts covering his traveling routes. If someone really wants to duplicate his canoe trips they should really just get the Addison & Harwood (1969) or Waddington & Waddington (2016) books instead of reading the Wiki page! (And listen to Pink Moon on the way too) Tkbrett (✉) 21:38, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
- Overall you are probably top-heavy in quotes, maybe some could be paraphrased. Ceoil (talk) 02:04, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Tony1
NB Insulting and attempting to discredit reviewers are not regarded acceptable strategies at this forum.
1a, lead only:
- "His painting utilizes broad brush strokes"—the simpler "uses" would be less ungainly.
- "and did not display any immediate artistic talent"—consider the simpler wording: "and displayed no immediate artistic talent"
- worked ... worked. Perhaps the second one could be "was employed in"?
- Is the first comma necessary? "There, he met those who eventually formed the Group of Seven, including J. E. H. MacDonald, Lawren Harris, Frederick Varley, Franklin Carmichael and Arthur Lismer." (Considering you're justifiably OK with no comma in this stretch, later: "paintings such as The Jack Pine and The West Wind have taken a prominent place in the culture of Canada and are some of the country's most iconic pieces of art."
- The very next sentence openes with another "there" wording. I can't see an alternative at the moment.
- "following the advice of MacDonald"—simpler as: "following MacDonald's advice"?
- I didn't like this: "Thomson is often considered an unofficial member with his art typically exhibited with the rest of the Group's." (i) Could we have a comma before the connective "with"? (ii) there are two, close "with"s that have different grammatical functions. (iii) the ending "the Group's" is pretty awkward. An ellipsis right at the end ...?
- "Nearly all his work is located in Canada, mainly at the Art Gallery of Ontario in Toronto, the National Gallery of Canada in Ottawa, the McMichael Canadian Art Collection in Kleinburg and the Tom Thomson Art Gallery in Owen Sound."—You might consider "all of his", but it's a personal thing. Might it be easier to insert a dash after "Canada"? "located in Canada—mainly at ...". "located" is not watertight: it could, I suppose, refer to the subjects of his paintings, rather than "housed in Canada", or similar. But I could live with "located" if you're fine with it, too.
I've nit-picked, but it's fine writing indeed. it will be a support, but I'd like to return to look at more. Tony (talk) 14:01, 5 November 2018 (UTC)