(talk page) (87/19/7); Scheduled to end 19:35, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
Nomination
GRuban (talk · contribs) – I am pleased to present George Ruban to the community for consideration for adminship. George goes out of his way in RL to track down information and sources for the articles he writes. He has been editing consistently for over 7 years and it's a pleasure to see 92 decent articles created and a raft of DYKs. George was motivated to enquire about adminship after reading a series of articles in The Signpost , and concerned with the decreasing number of admins he has decided would like to help out. George is a member of Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias and its subproject Gender gap task force. As an old style editor, he has signalled his intention to join Wikipedia:Administrators open to recall (Lar's process) thus preempting what has again become a boilerplate question although I don't really know what it has to do with his aptitude for adminship. Not only does he have an extensive knowledge of policies, especially for images and copyright, but he fully understands COI as clearly demonstrated here. George is an open, friendly, helpful and polite collaborator as I'm sure you will conclude from his talk page and its archives - just the kind of temperament that is needed for an admin, and as I trust him to use the tools with care and discretion, I trust the community will join me in the spirit of adding him to the corps of sysops. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:47, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
Co-nomination
They say time is the ultimate test of true character. And in GRuban's case, this statement stands as true as ever. One of the easiest and most helpful editors to work with, GRuban has been here since 2005, with participation increasing over the years to probably a crescendo right now. Over these many years of editing, GRuban's focus on mainspace (>~50%) has remained pristine, with a prolific and sustained article creation focus (around 80 and growing); and of course, greater than 98% edit summary usage. To be honest, some of their articles are much better than the GAs that I have read or written. While I would love them to continue their focus on mainspace, I am also very well aware of their significant experience in other areas, such as the 400+ AfDs they have participated in over the years. Again, while I hope GRuban, if their RfA succeeds, contributes extensively in the AfD area, I defer to their viewpoint of wishing to take it as it comes while focusing on clearing the admin backlog. With strong confidence that GRuban would be a stellar addition to our taskforce, I place this co-nomination in front of my fellow editors for their (gentle) review and approval. Lourdes 18:43, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- Candidate, please indicate acceptance of the nomination here:
Thanks, Kudpung and Lourdes! I've been editing for a while and would love to help out as an admin since it seems more are needed. I have never edited for pay, but have written most of 3 articles about people I have theoretically worked with, and tried hard to follow all the WP:COI rules. I have had one alternate account that I haven't used in years, that the ArbCom knows about.
Questions for the candidate
Dear candidate, thank you for offering to serve Wikipedia as an administrator. Please answer these questions to provide guidance for participants:
- 1. What administrative work do you intend to take part in?
- A: I intend to fill the need and help clear up the WP:ADMINBACKLOG as necessary. It does seem to be necessary, as the admin/user ratio keeps falling. I've done that sort of thing before: a few years ago, when there was a huge backlog on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure, over 100 days in many cases, and (the amazing) User:Cunard asked for help from experienced editors, I was one of several experienced editors who stepped up to review and close as many Wikipedia:Request for Comments as I could. I still come back to close others at times. Here is a list of (many? half? most? I gave up eventually...) of my closures that could be useful to see my judgment. None were ever overturned, but a few people disagreed with my closures on my talk page, I link there as well. Of course it isn't actually necessary to be an Administrator to close most RfCs, though at times people do ask for an admin. (Or a Muslim!)
- I've also become fairly knowledgeable about image copyright over my years here so could help there. I haven't done many Images for Deletion on EN Wikipedia, but on Wikimedia Commons I have uploaded a good number of images; am a fairly experienced License Reviewer; wrote a popular license finding guide; nominated several hundred for deletion, defended others. On EN, people have come to my user talk for image help, gave me a Precious and a barnstar. I won't say I know everything (one of the main things I've learned is that image copyright law is so complex that no one can know everything!), but I would venture I know more than the average EN user, and possibly even more than the average EN admin who doesn't specialize in images.
- I'm asking for the tools to allow me to help out in admin areas as needed, and offering the above as examples of what I've done close to it. I see the mop as, well, a mop, to wipe up a mess when it happens, not a pen or a paintbrush to pick up with the goal of creating a masterwork. Being an admin is not a goal in itself, it's to clean up the unavoidable messes so that editors can do the real work, writing, editing (uploading images...
).
- I'm asking for the tools to allow me to help out in admin areas as needed, and offering the above as examples of what I've done close to it. I see the mop as, well, a mop, to wipe up a mess when it happens, not a pen or a paintbrush to pick up with the goal of creating a masterwork. Being an admin is not a goal in itself, it's to clean up the unavoidable messes so that editors can do the real work, writing, editing (uploading images...
- 2. What are your best contributions to Wikipedia, and why?
- A: I've created about 80 real articles, listed on my user page. I hope I've gotten better over time; some of my favorites include:
- the man who turned Harlem black, partly by evicting whites
- the pulp artist who gave up anarchism after he left a bomb in a Pittsburgh outhouse
- the local runner who ran 7 marathons on 7 continents in 7 days, and won them (Antarctica was so cold her iPod shattered)
- the black Victoria's Secret model ... and computer programmer
- the Canadian model and ovarian cancer advocate (she died the day after I started on her article; and the DYK got 34,666 page views, qualifying for All-time DYK page view leaders)
- my most recent is the child CEO of a multi-million dollar healthy candy company (also with noticeable DYK views)
- A: I've created about 80 real articles, listed on my user page. I hope I've gotten better over time; some of my favorites include:
- I've also uploaded over 1000 images for articles, most on or linked from my Commons user page. Each one is worth a thousand words, right?
- I've also uploaded over 1000 images for articles, most on or linked from my Commons user page. Each one is worth a thousand words, right?
- I am also proud of the RfC work, above. Cunard particularly liked two of my tougher ones, Talk:Freedom Caucus#RFC: far-right and especially my "excruciating"(!) longer explanation when it was questioned; and Talk:Vaccine#Proposed merge with Vaccination, where there was no consensus for the merge, but the merge was done anyway, and 2 months had passed since, and there were no volunteers to undo the merge ... so I did it. That sort of lending a hand when needed, that's what I'm proud of, it's what makes us a community instead of each doing our own thing. That's also why I want to be an admin, to help out in yet another way.
- 3. Have you been in any conflicts over editing in the past or have other users caused you stress? How have you dealt with it and how will you deal with it in the future?
- A: I've been in editing disagreements, certainly, since I've been here 13 years, I can't even list them all - you can see how I dealt with some over a 6 month period when I was thinking about RfA last year. In each case I've tried to keep them from getting to the level of "personal", or spreading. My theory about these things is that they shouldn't matter enough in that way. What we're doing here is amazing, building the single largest source of knowledge in human history (also free, shareable, updateable in real time, and volunteer built), but any bit of it is much less important than the whole. Any bit of an article is generally less important than having the article; any single article is generally less important than the so many other articles we're writing; and any disagreement with a constructive editor is generally so much less important than the benefit that editor brings in writing other articles.
- Editors who get into "if you don't agree on how to use the Oxford comma, I'm going to take my ball(,) and go home" arguments just make me sad. The statement I stuck on the top of my user page refers to that, and that's how I try to behave in disagreements. "We disagree here, but I appreciate these other things you've done more." If/when I don't live up to that, I try to apologize, and not do it again. There are exceptions - vandals, single purpose editors, spammers - but they're relatively rare, easy to see, and quickly dealt with (by admins, in fact). Most of are here in good faith, and can work together constructively in general even when we disagree in some particulars.
You may ask optional questions below. There is a limit of two questions per editor. Multi-part questions disguised as one question, with the intention of evading the limit, are disallowed. Follow-up questions relevant to questions you have already asked are allowed.
- Additional question from Reyk
- 4. In your opinion, what is the most important policy on Wikipedia and why?
- A: Wikipedia:Five pillars (Wikipedia:TRIFECTA is slightly snappier): which aren't a single policy, but the root of all the others, because none of our policies work alone, only in concert. We need to follow Verifiability in what we write, and Neutral point of view in how we write it, but without BLP we could do undue harm to living people, and without Civility to our fellow editors. The last rule of both lists, Ignore all rules is powerful and subtle, it can be used directly rarely, but mainly it's there to remind us that we made these rules, we can make them again. In the end, when I need to summarize our key rules, they are "Remain neutral; Don't be a jerk; Ignore other rules that get in the way of making an encyclopedia."
- Additional question from Lee Vilenski
- 5. You have 14 years of service and 17,000 edits. I commend your tenure. However, your activity is at the highest it has ever been but will still be around 3,000 edits for this year. If given the toolset, do you see yourself contributing more (in terms of edits) in future years? (I understand a lot of your work is offwiki currently)
- A: Likely about this much, more some times, less others. I won't be the most active administrator in the admin corps, but neither will I be the least active one. What I can commit to, though, is Accountability: when I take an administrator action I will follow it through. It's a volunteer project, we do what we can, and in the end it usually works in practice, if not in theory.
- Additional question from Carrite
- 6. Your user page has user boxes indicating that you are both a native speaker of English and that Russian is your "mother tongue." Which is correct? Thanks.
- A: Both! I spoke Russian first, but grew up in the United States, so speak English better. In Russian I am fluent and idiomatic and have a fair vocabulary, but never went to school, so "true" native speakers take me for one for about the first 5 minutes, when they notice my fundamental grammar mistakes that people usually learn about in first grade. In English I used to be professional quality at one time, following up an 800 on the SAT with some months as a professional translator. Now I work as a computer programmer so know that the only true punctuation is the semicolon (;)
- Thanks for your answer. -t /// Carrite (talk) 20:43, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- A: Both! I spoke Russian first, but grew up in the United States, so speak English better. In Russian I am fluent and idiomatic and have a fair vocabulary, but never went to school, so "true" native speakers take me for one for about the first 5 minutes, when they notice my fundamental grammar mistakes that people usually learn about in first grade. In English I used to be professional quality at one time, following up an 800 on the SAT with some months as a professional translator. Now I work as a computer programmer so know that the only true punctuation is the semicolon (;)
- 6.5. A follow-up, if I may... I notice you've only made 10 edits to Russian-WP. Why so few for someone with mid-level Russian language skills?
- A. Because, as above, my spelling and grammar are terrible! I can read everything, and can even converse with people who are forgiving about grammatical lapses, but my writing skills are those of a 6 year old who somehow managed to acquire a grown-up vocabulary. You would not want to "publish" what I write in Russian as encyclopedia articles. Unless you had a certain sense of humor.
- Thanks again. Use the tools wisely. Carrite (talk) 12:32, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- A. Because, as above, my spelling and grammar are terrible! I can read everything, and can even converse with people who are forgiving about grammatical lapses, but my writing skills are those of a 6 year old who somehow managed to acquire a grown-up vocabulary. You would not want to "publish" what I write in Russian as encyclopedia articles. Unless you had a certain sense of humor.
- Additional question(s) from Nosebagbear
- 7. With regard to the issue early last year that SN54129 refers to do you think those concerns were reasonable, and whether yes or no, would you say you act differently now?
- A: Yes, and yes, respectively. Basically, a year ago last January, I disagreed with a few dedicated editors in a few places, and I thought a way I could make it better would be to interact with them in other contexts, to show we could work together on other things. Bad Idea. I tried to make things better and instead annoyed people, which was not my goal. So I stopped, and haven't done that again. As I write above, under question 3, when I make mistakes I try to apologize and stop doing it. And have: I don't think I've annoyed any of those people, or any other people in that way, and don't intend to. I will, however, probably make more mistakes despite my best efforts; what I can do is try to a) recognize I made a mistake and try to make up for it as soon as possible, and b) not to make those specific kinds of mistakes again in the future. I will make different mistakes in the future. More creative ones!
- Additional question from John M Wolfson
- 8. An editor creates an article on an elementary school that entirely comprises material copied and pasted from that school's website. What criterion for speedy deletion applies, and in particular which criterion/a do(es) not apply?
- A: Most likely WP:G12, "Unambiguous copyright infringement". Most text on the web is copyrighted, we can't copy-paste it into our articles with rare exceptions for small quotes marked as such. If the text were marked public domain, we'd ... probably still want to rewrite that anyway, to be honest, but it wouldn't be a Speedy deletion cause any more. A less likely possibility would be WP:G11 "Unambiguous advertising or promotion", which can often be found from just pasting in contents of spammy company websites, perhaps less likely so about a school, but still possible. Speedy criteria that almost certainly do not apply, include WP:G1 "Patent nonsense", WP:G2 "Test pages" WP:G3 "Pure vandalism and blatant hoaxes", A1 "No context", WP:A7 "No indication of importance", and others, since it is a legible page that at least contends to be about an actual school. WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES says that articles about elementary schools are usually redirected, but that is not a Speedy criterion.
- This doesn't impact my view of you as an admin, but for future reference an answer I was looking for was that A7 explicitly exempts educational institutions. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 22:42, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you. --GRuban (talk) 22:58, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- This doesn't impact my view of you as an admin, but for future reference an answer I was looking for was that A7 explicitly exempts educational institutions. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 22:42, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- A: Most likely WP:G12, "Unambiguous copyright infringement". Most text on the web is copyrighted, we can't copy-paste it into our articles with rare exceptions for small quotes marked as such. If the text were marked public domain, we'd ... probably still want to rewrite that anyway, to be honest, but it wouldn't be a Speedy deletion cause any more. A less likely possibility would be WP:G11 "Unambiguous advertising or promotion", which can often be found from just pasting in contents of spammy company websites, perhaps less likely so about a school, but still possible. Speedy criteria that almost certainly do not apply, include WP:G1 "Patent nonsense", WP:G2 "Test pages" WP:G3 "Pure vandalism and blatant hoaxes", A1 "No context", WP:A7 "No indication of importance", and others, since it is a legible page that at least contends to be about an actual school. WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES says that articles about elementary schools are usually redirected, but that is not a Speedy criterion.
- Additional question from AnUnnamedUser
- 9. Are you willing to ban persistently disruptive editors as an admin? If so, give an example of a situation where you might do so to a disruptive editor.
- A: Well, first, in general administrators can't usually ban editors as such, they can block them. The difference is that a ban is a formal prohibition to a person from editing, while the block is a usually temporary method of stopping some specific account from editing. There are a few conflict areas where admins are allowed to actually issue bans, as described there, but they are relatively rare (so far! thank goodness!), and barring emergency I don't intend to venture there to issue bans for some time at least until I get more admin experience, those are not simple areas. Anyway, I am willing to block persistently disruptive editors when needed, I've reported persistent vandals to Wikipedia:Administrator intervention against vandalism when needed, and when I did that I was, honestly, looking for a block. But usually a dispute can be settled with a warning: "You're doing X. That violates rule Y. Please don't do that. I'm a Wikipedia administrator, it's my duty to enforce rule Y." A reasonable editor will, at this point, stop doing X. They may argue, they may be unhappy, but they're not doing X any more, which is the important part. Discussion is good! Maybe they can find a different way to do what they want, maybe they give up on what they want, maybe they can even convince the community to change rule Y. If they instead continue to do X, then, unfortunately, we do have to block them. That's a noticeable part of what admins do.
- I'd want to set the length of the block to be long enough to prevent the damage, longer if the user has been blocked before for something similar, especially recently, shorter if this might be a rare instance and the user might become a productive editor afterwards. I'd want to be sure that I'm not personally involved in the issue; if I am, I can probably find a different admin to do the work, there are a thousand, after all (even if many inactive). If a page is a conflict area, rather than a person, I might protect the page instead, that can be an alternate tool. But for blocks: talk where possible, block where not. When I do get comfortable enough in problem areas where individual admins can issue bans, that will be my approach as well.
- Additional question from Peacemaker67
- 10. I noticed that you didn't list any GAs, despite the fact that your content work clearly is well up to the required standard. Have you ever submitted an article to our quality assessment processes, and if not, why not?
- A: I did submit the first one on that favorites list for Peer review some years ago, and got the feedback that it would require a lot more research, and length, which I haven't gotten around to doing. An intimidating amount of historical research was needed, and that's made me wary of submitting others. Possibly that's due to the fact that it's clearly the most historically significant one of the list; the more modern biographies might be easier. Will likely try for a GA or two eventually. If someone more experienced in this sort of thing wants to help, I'd be glad of the offer!
- Additional question from Spintendo
- 11. As of February 2018 you had written two articles about co-workers of yours, Brad Smith and Rebecca Moore. Even though in both cases these were not directly-paid relationships, you still made the effort to post the appropriate COI disclosures and invited third party editors to review and implement changes, which is commendable. What are your views on sysops accepting direct pay to edit articles, and is that a practice you might ever see yourself doing in the future?
- A: Three all told; I've written a whole page about them, linked from my user page, hopefully it describes them well enough.
- Honestly, I'm wary of administrators accepting direct pay to edit. One got in trouble for that, and describes the issue on his user page. He's quite clear about it being a bad idea. There are real declared paid editors on the Wikipedia, if not very many, but they don't have any special power over other editors, and that's important. A lot of the authority of administrators comes from the community trusting them. Having a sysop whose livelihood depends on someone else paying them for their actions on the encyclopedia means everyone would have to ask what their main goal was with every action they took, a real pain. Presumably they would have to ethically avoid sysop work near anything even close to what they got paid for, so if they were editing for a living, so doing a lot of it, that would mean avoiding wide swathes of the encyclopedia, which would bring into question why they were a sysop at all. If they only did a little paid editing, so it would only affect a little bit of the encyclopedia, and didn't really affect their livelihood, then that's taking a large risk for little benefit, which was Sal's issue.
- Personally I don't see myself doing any editing for money. Even besides the ethical issues above, I'm usually a slow writer, and it takes me at least days and sometimes months to write an article, and I'm fortunate enough to have worked as a software engineer for 25 years, so am not hurting for money. I work on Wikipedia for fun, pride of accomplishment, learning things, helping others, the feeling of making the world a better place, that sort of thing. If any of that ever does change and I want to edit for money, I will put down the mop first.
- Additional question from Robert McClenon
- 12. Do you have any experience in resolving content disputes between editors, and do you have any experience in dealing with conduct disputes?
- A: Yes! I closed quite a few Wikipedia:Request for comments, and they're exactly editor content disputes, many of them are listed here, please do look at them for examples of how I resolved each. I have encountered editor conduct disputes, and tried to deal with them, without involving administrators, and sometimes just appealing to calm, or reason, or people's better natures works. We are (almost) all here to improve the Wikipedia after all; most of us are pretty good people when you come down to it. But sometimes it doesn't, and, well, that is why we sometimes need administrators. Strangely enough, when an administrator says the exact same thing, it often works much better! But for when it doesn't, then, unfortunately, the tools need to come into play.
- Additional question from Explicit
- 13. An editor nominates a file in use (hosted on the English Wikipedia, but not on Commons) for deletion at WP:FFD. It is a photo of the exterior of a modern building, which was built in France and completed in 2017. The nominator cites the lack of freedom of panorama in France in their deletion rationale. The author information is not disputed. After being relisted twice, a second editor agrees with the deletion. What action do you take?
- A: Delete the file, probably. The deletion rationale is correct, there is no freedom of panorama in France, so the building copyright holder would have to have released the rights. Now on Wikimedia Commons, image deletions are much stricter, there many or even most discussions are deleted without a second participant, and there is no "fair use" rationale. Here, presumably the relisting admin was waiting for more participation and for someone to put forth some such rationale for keeping, but after two relistings and finding a second participant it doesn't seem as if anyone is going to come forth with one, and that is the requirement. At worst there is Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion. Links to the file would need to be removed from the article(s) it was used in, possibly the tools will do that automatically, if not I'd do that too.
- Additional question from Banedon
- 14. Can you summarize what the allegations of harassment currently given in the oppose section are about?
- A:
Discussion
- Links for GRuban: GRuban (talk · contribs · deleted · count · AfD · logs · block log · lu · rfar · spi)
- Edit summary usage for GRuban can be found here.
Please keep discussion constructive and civil. If you are unfamiliar with the nominee, please thoroughly review their contributions before commenting.
Support
- Support It would have been a different story some time ago—specifically January 2018—when the candidate was labelled a
really, really, creepy stalker
for harassment, which all but resulted in a level-4 warning. So, when I first gathered they were planning to stand at some point point, I gently advised to leave it a while—until January 2019, I suggested. In my opinion, the fact that the candidate not only only took that advice but then left it another 10 months before opening their candidature speaks volumes for the maturity and deliberation we want in administrators, and suggest that there will be few admin actions taken without care and attention.TLDR: would once not have passed the WP:DICK test; now surpasses it in spades. Good luck with this! ——SN54129 19:48, 4 November 2019 (UTC)I don't normally do "thought they already were an admin" votes, but here's an exception. Steel1943 (talk) 19:48, 4 November 2019 (UTC)- ...moved to Neutral. Steel1943 (talk) 23:36, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support, WP:NOBIGDEAL. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 19:56, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support I saw quite a bit of Gruban many years ago in another project (the ODP), where he always struck me as having a lot of common sense. I haven't crossed paths with him that often at Wikipedia, but have reason to belive that he would not break the project or mis-use any tools, and nothing I've seen in a quick check of talk page posts, edits etc, cause any concerns whatsoever. --bonadea contributions talk 20:02, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support per noms.-- P-K3 (talk) 20:04, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support this user is a prolific content creator (notwithstanding the lack of GAs and FAs, though I do highly recommend that Mr. Ruban look into those processes), has an excellent (>98%) edit summary usage and decent AfD stats, and has closed many RfCs, some of which were difficult. Add that to the high level of respect I accord Kudpung and Lourdes and you've got yourself a strong support. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 20:20, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- Strong candidate. El_C 20:24, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support - trustworthy editor. PhilKnight (talk) 20:35, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support - Clean block log, steady activity each month for the last two years, no indications of assholery. You actually had me at Philip A. Payton Jr., to be honest... Zero concerns. Carrite (talk) 20:37, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support will be a net-positive to the project. 14 years of tenure is impressive and to be commended. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 20:40, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support No evidence they will misuse the tools or abuse the position. No doubt in my mind they are clear thinking, mature and an asset to the pedia.--MONGO (talk) 20:52, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support, no problems.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:55, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support. Has clue, been around, support per noms. Only concern would have been the issues Serial Number 54129 mentioned in their Support above but that seems to have been cleared up. Shearonink (talk) 21:10, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support precious finding images --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:18, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support The candidate has a history of writing quality articles, some of which became DYKs. This experience will be important for others to know. --LPS and MLP Fan (Littlest Pet Shop) (My Little Pony) 21:47, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- —Kusma (t·c) 21:47, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support - his qualifications speak loudly, his demeaner is one we look for in our admin candidates. I have no concerns, but even if I did, he is the kind of editor (and I'm confident he will be the same as an admin) who looks for solutions, and as his answers indicate, will do his best to fix the underlying problem. I'll admit that his ability to find images along with his knowledge about copyrights are a major plus. Atsme Talk 📧 21:51, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:57, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- (Moving to Neutral) Wug·a·po·des 18:54, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
I like the answer to Q6 and Q6.5. Having multilingual sysops is great when handling interwiki problems or foreign editors with competence problems. The limited edits to ruWikipedia and answer to Q6.5 shows the candidate understands their limitations and treads lightly (and also has a sense of humor). No reason to think the tools will be misused. Wug·a·po·des 22:16, 4 November 2019 (UTC) Support - good answer to Q7 (I also liked their answer to 6.5), can't see any indications of the issue reoccurring. Multiple names who clearly know the editor (who I don't think I've had the chance to meet) trust GRuban. Good sense of humour in general (I suggest reading the candidate's prep User talk:GRuban/RfA for those who like a laugh and for a chance to see some of his competencies that he took out for it being too long!). All the other good stuff we like to see in a candidate. Nosebagbear (talk) 22:19, 4 November 2019 (UTC)- Moved back to Neutral
- (Moving to Neutral) Wug·a·po·des 18:54, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support. Fully qualified candidate. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:32, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- Strong support per thoughtful reflection of past actions in responses to questions 3 and 7, particularly at User:GRuban/Conflicts. I particularly like:
what I can do is try to a) recognize I made a mistake and try to make up for it as soon as possible, and b) not to make those specific kinds of mistakes again in the future. I will make different mistakes in the future. More creative ones!
Overall I'm seeing an editor with a good temperament who has made mistakes, some of them recent, but learns from them and will therefore be a net positive. — Bilorv (talk) 22:43, 4 November 2019 (UTC) - Support. Good answers. Mccapra (talk) 22:44, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support. High quality articles, long experience in wider tool-set, including AfDs, and a great temperment. Great answer to Q7. Britishfinance (talk) 22:46, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- User talk:GRuban/RfA is worth reading – a problem with RfAs is people start !voting immediately before thrashing out any issues that can emerge (e.g. Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Greenman); either using GRuban's technique, or having a 7-day morortium for discussion before any !voting, should be considered for future RfAs. Britishfinance (talk) 23:01, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
Support - George is a great editor and will certainly make a great admin, I'm also impressed with their answers. Easiest support of the year by far. –Davey2010Talk 22:52, 4 November 2019 (UTC)(Moved to Oppose. –Davey2010Talk 19:50, 6 November 2019 (UTC))
- Support No problems, high-quality answers to questions that display a comprehensive grasp of policy. From AnUnnamedUser (open talk page) 22:59, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support, do not know him, but upon review seems like a stand-up guy. I would recommend that he take part in the GA process for one of his articles. Kierzek (talk) 23:19, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support One of my go-to editors for languages. Have always found him to be a helpful and civil editor who focuses on improving the encyclopedia. I trust him with the tools. SusunW (talk) 23:37, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support. Excellent content contributions. — Newslinger talk 00:18, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support - a trusted long-time editor. I have no concerns. — CactusWriter (talk) 00:38, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support – no concerns, and count me among the editors who are impressed. – Levivich 00:41, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support No concerns! And if Levivich thinks you are ok, then I do too! Lightburst (talk) 03:15, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
Supportshould be fine Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:22, 5 November 2019 (UTC)(need to look at issue raised here)
- Support No concerns. Buffs (talk) 04:06, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support I don't see any reasons why not! Puddleglum2.0👌(talk) 04:13, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support. Seems fine to me. bd2412 T 05:22, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support. As nominator. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:46, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support I don't recall interacting with them, but strong nomination statements and support from numerous respected editors above who know their work - why not? GirthSummit (blether) 07:16, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support. Wow. Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 07:45, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support per Gerda and many others. No concerns. The "stalking and harassment claims" over (what I believe to be) this thread are totally wide of the mark, given that GRuban said "We are all on the same side, the side of trying to contribute to the "summary of all human knowledge". That's a really good thing. Anything that leads to article improvement should be encouraged"." So he edit warred with Eric Corbett two years ago, big deal, I doubt Eric cares about grudges like that. And he rubbed Cassianto up the wrong way, but he also sought feedback on whether or not he'd done the right thing; I see self-reflection and definitely not an indication that GRuban will start making questionable blocks on longstanding editors because "it's policy". Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 08:39, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Your concern for the project over editor' well-being and retention would appear to do you little credit, I'm afraid. ——SN54129 10:53, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support. Foxnpichu (talk) 08:45, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support per my comments here and here. A friendly and compassionate editor with a great sense of humor, GRuban is an excellent content contributor and an exemplary WP:ANRFC closer. I greatly enjoy reading both the articles and RfC closes he writes as I know they always will be high quality. I enthusiastically support this RfA. Cunard (talk) 09:01, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support - All reasons aleready listed above. Josephine W. (talk) 10:01, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support – Appears to be a very dedicated editor and I would happily see them sysopped. Gwen Hope (talk) (contrib) 10:43, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support. "Per nom" is the best I can come up with this time. I'm also happy to see a candidate who is open about their level of language skills. Deryck C. 11:04, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support - no concerns. GiantSnowman 11:11, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
Support. Contributions look good and previous interaction reviewing his DYK nom of Alina Morse was positive. Also two nominators whose judgment I trust. Regards SoWhy 11:21, 5 November 2019 (UTC)(switched to oppose)
- Support. No concerns with edit history and displays even temperment as well. Clearly a net gain for the project. Loopy30 (talk) 11:36, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support - I am unimpressed by the behaviour on display in January 2018, linked in Q7, but I am persuaded by his openness in admitting fault and more importantly that he has learnt from this mistake and does not appear to have repeated it. --Find bruce (talk) 11:50, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support Strong and satisfying answers to questions ~mike_gigs talkcontribs 12:58, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support A positive plus to the project. scope_creepTalk 13:40, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support per Kudpung .User has around since 2005 clear net poaitive.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 14:19, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support No cavils at all. Collect (talk) 14:26, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support per nominator, per above, per User:Deepfriedokra/On RfA.I 'm not so active as I once was, and if user helps with the backlogs, it'll take up my slack.-- Deepfriedokra 14:30, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support. I've kind of been expecting this. Good discussion closures and highly experienced. feminist (talk) 15:31, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
Seems like a reflective thoughtful user who per noms and User talk:GRuban/RfA will work hard to be a good sysop. Certainly has the experience to do so. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:12, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support per noms, SN54129, User talk:GRuban/RfA, answers to questions, and positive contributions I've seen in the past. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 16:28, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support - net positive, have seen good things.CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 16:56, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- support per nom. Thanks,L3X1 ◊distænt write◊ 19:16, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- (moving to neutral) signed, Rosguill talk 19:44, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
Support net positive, good work with RfC closures. signed, Rosguill talk 20:00, 5 November 2019 (UTC)Additional comment in light of the opposes based on wikihounding behavior: if the behavior was continuous, or if GRuban did not display what appears to be genuine contrition, I would be moving to oppose. I don't think that the mentioning of an email conversation is grounds for an oppose at this time. I will be following this discussion and will change my vote if additional information comes to light that suggests that contrition is insincere or that the behavior is likely to begin again. signed, Rosguill talk 19:38, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- (moving to neutral) signed, Rosguill talk 19:44, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support no reason to suspect they'd be anything but a positive. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 21:05, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support. Jonathunder (talk) 23:13, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support. Well qualified and experienced editor. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 23:40, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support Seems well qualified. – Ammarpad (talk) 00:42, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support Why not? -FASTILY 01:10, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support I encourage GRuban to participate more at GAN and FAC. These projects are an important part of our work, and beyond mere navel gazing. They ensure our best content is curated, maintained and not allowed to regress even after absence of the primary editor, god forbid. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 01:31, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support I don't think we've run into each other except at Becca Pizzi. That's more than enough. Smallbones(smalltalk) 02:33, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support impressive contributions & I'm happy to support a candidate with courteous answers who is also working to close the gender gap. = paul2520 (talk) 02:56, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support Excellent candidate, best of luck! Lord Roem ~ (talk) 03:02, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support, a trustworthy editor. SarahSV (talk) 03:19, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support, none too soon! Bishonen | talk 03:24, 6 November 2019 (UTC).
- Support: a trusted contributor; thank you for volunteering. --K.e.coffman (talk) 04:05, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support. Rock-steady contributor deserves the mop. Binksternet (talk) 04:31, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support Haven't always agreed with GRuban but always found them thoughtful and thorough, which is exactly what we need in an administrator. Volunteer Marek 05:48, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support – Excellent candidate. Kurtis (talk) 06:24, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support GRuban really have all it takes to become a good administrator. Splendiferous candidate. NNADIGOODLUCK (Talk|Contribs) 07:09, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support, will be fine. Fish+Karate 10:35, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support: honestly, while I think Serial Number 54129 is right insofar as it would probably constitute HOUNDING it's one incident over a year ago and I don't think it was coming from a dickish place, it appeared GRuban was just genuinely trying to be helpful. SITH (talk) 14:03, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Mayhap, SITH: but of course recent events have all but proven that one can still be a WP:DICK without actually intending to :) ——SN54129 14:20, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support. I don't think I've interacted with George before, but it seems to me that he's a net positive in regards to content creation (e.g. strong involvement in AFD and DYK processes). The opposes aren't convincing - I think, as mentioned in SN54129's comment, he's learned from that one hounding accusation from January 2018. But otherwise, his edits seem to be in good faith and highly content focused, and would benefit from admin rights. epicgenius (talk) 16:48, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support Excellent, helpful editor. They were a little slow to back down in the Jan 2018 episode, but even the best make mistakes, overall they look like they'll be a big asset to the admin corps. FeydHuxtable (talk) 17:58, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support - Can be trusted with the mop. -- FitIndia Talk Commons 18:22, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support Good answers to questions, opposers' reasoning utterly unconvincing/POINTy. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:26, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support, I've enjoyed the answers to questions and feel confident that the candidate would be a net positive as admin. -- Tavix (talk) 18:34, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support Very good editor. ~EDDY (talk/contribs)~ 18:45, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support meets my RFA criteria. Iffy★Chat -- 18:58, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support. Good candidate. Pichpich (talk) 20:22, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support GRuban seems friendly and engaging to an extreme, as well as more than sufficiently competent to wield the mop. As best I can tell, it looks like in the past instance brought up in SN's support and many of the opposers' comments, GRuban was awkward and made a mistake, but was not malicious. I haven't seen any other problems with his editing. It's ok to make mistakes, as long as folks are willing/able to learn from them. It sounds like he's interested in avoiding similar situations. So for me, this is an easy support. Ajpolino (talk) 21:19, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Weak Support: Although I am concerned about the issue raised by opponents below, there is a social skills element involved on all sides here as well. I think this user's mistakes are balanced by their involvement in GGTF and related issues. Montanabw(talk) 23:21, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Blaming all sides cuts no ice, as it's not "all sides" who are applying for adminiship. Others may have performed sub-optimally, but that's beside the point, as none of them have launched an RfA. And BTW, those below aren't "opponents", they're simply people who don't agree with you. Dr Horncastle (talk) 23:43, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- To your last statement, there's nothing wrong with the word "opponents" per se. Those who are posting in the oppose section are opponents of this nomination. epicgenius (talk) 03:16, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- Blaming all sides cuts no ice, as it's not "all sides" who are applying for adminiship. Others may have performed sub-optimally, but that's beside the point, as none of them have launched an RfA. And BTW, those below aren't "opponents", they're simply people who don't agree with you. Dr Horncastle (talk) 23:43, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support Candidate seems experienced, open, and willing to learn from his mistakes. Have no trouble trusting him with the mop. Parabolist (talk) 00:00, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- Trust the judgement of the noms. TonyBallioni (talk) 00:12, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support per Kurtis. Lepricavark (talk) 05:20, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support Some issues have been raised below that if they were more recent, I'd probably hesitate here. But most are going on two years old. The opposes have done a good job of establishing that a couple years ago, in a compressed time frame, GRuban made some not insignificant errors in judgement. But it was two years ago and I am not seeing evidence of a pattern of poor judgement or malicious editing. Which brings me to one of my recurring themes at RfA. We are deciding whether or not to trust an editor with a few extra tools to help keep things running smoothly in an online encyclopedia. We are not electing a president or pope. Infallibility is not a reasonable criteria. Over the years I have been participating in RfA I have cast my share of oppose !Votes. And for reasons defying my comprehension, in a number of those cases the community decided to pass them anyway. And even more embarrassing, to the present day I cannot think of a single admin whose RfA I opposed, who later went on to become a problem. Conceding some poor judgement in the time frame mentioned, I'm not seeing anything to cause me to believe this candidate is going to abuse the tools or break the wiki. On balance they look like a better than average editor and will, I believe, be a net positive to the project if given the mop. -Ad Orientem (talk) 06:11, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support I hear the concerns in the oppose and read them, I also read the noms statements. George made a mistake and I am sure learned a valuable lesson. I think they will be a benefit to the project with the tools and also think that sometimes wikipedia needs to be a more forgiving place. Govindaharihari (talk) 06:40, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support a good contributor to Wikipedia. The viciousness of the internet is brutal here, and I wish some kindness would be considered.--!nnovativ (talk) 10:21, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- Support. It's the email thing, not the wikihounding thing, that's causing a run on this RfA. I'm not with the opposers on that one. The disclosure of the fact of the email was neither a violation of policy nor done with nefarious intent. That doesn't mean it was the right thing to do, but by the same taken making a mistake within an RfA is classically prone to triggering a disproportionate response in terms of the vote count. I was about to support a day or so ago, for all the usual reasons of competence, judgement, etc, and nothing has really changed.--Mkativerata (talk) 10:27, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
Oppose
- Oppose because of the issue brought up in Q7. Unless of course there's a general Statute of Limitations I'm unaware of for all editors, and not just for popular RfA candidates. Dr Horncastle (talk) 21:38, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
- Dr Horncastle, Re:
Unless of course there's a general Statute of Limitations I'm unaware of for all editors, and not just for popular RfA candidates.
would you want something held over your head almost 2 years after it happened? Kb03 (talk) 02:56, 6 November 2019 (UTC)- Probably not, but isn't that the way Wikipedia works for many other editors? Why make an exception in this case? Dr Horncastle (talk) 13:28, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- This one was interesting to me. Before I learned about watch lists, I used to look for things to do by following certain people around. I realized that it might seem creepy, and I hope I didn't do it in a way that they got creeped out. I am kind of surprised that the candidate was still doing this, after he had been editing for 5 years. But I hope he has learnt his lesson. Bruce leverett (talk) 03:54, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- One learns a lesson if they touch an inconspicuously lit oven and burn themselves, knowing not to do such a thing in the future; one should know that stalking female editors around and doxxing them is wrong from the start. CassiantoTalk 21:01, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Dr Horncastle, Re:
- Strongest possible oppose. Anyone who demonstrates that type of creepy, stalking/harassing behaviour should never be considered suitable to be rewarded with additional privileges. SagaciousPhil - Chat 07:57, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose Stalking other editors, particularly female ones, is so obviously wrong that it was both a surprise that you did it but deeply concerning you tried to defend and justify it. I don’t think you got/get just how unpleasant and worrying it is to people. That level of blinkered approach demonstrates to me a lack of awareness in the effect of ones actions. - SchroCat (talk) 08:52, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- "deeply concerning you tried to defend and justify it" - is this referring to concern that they initially did so (at the time) or when they said why they chose to act like that in Q7? I just ask, because in the latter, they specifically indicate that their action was wrong and their reasoning was wrong - they aren't giving a current defence, but their previous incorrect defence. Obviously this is a very legitimate grounds to oppose, but I wasn't sure how to read your oppose so wanted to clarify your intent. Nosebagbear (talk) 09:36, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- I used the past tense for a reason. Again, the lack of awareness of the effect ones actions can have on others - particularly in regard to stalking - is a huge red flag that this editor will show similar obliviousness when using the tools. How many people were chased off the site, or felt threatened by the stalking? It's just not good enough to say this was a couple of years ago: the lack of attention to the effects of ones actions is enough for me. Adminship is a big deal, and crap admins can drive off scores of people before they are brought to heel; someone with a history of stalking should not have powers over others. - SchroCat (talk) 10:37, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- You're right, and I thank you. I do recognize the hurt those actions caused, and apologize. SagaciousPhil emailed me yesterday, ..., and as I wrote her, I remember another amazing person whom I admired but who had to leave the Wikipedia because of external harassment. She was a respected admin, and yet kind; I'd be proud if I could emulate her. I recognize that for some people working on Wikipedia isn't fun, but painful, and I'm sorry for contributing to that. I regret it, wouldn't do it again in a similar case, and haven't in the time since. If there is a way that I can help instead of hurt, please say. That's why I'm running, because I believe I have learned, and that I can help more as an admin, and I hope the community believes the same. While I accept that some, like Dr Horncastle, believe there there is no statute of limitations, I do believe people can learn, and that I have, and I hope the community believes that as well. I trust the community, and I hope the community can trust me. --GRuban (talk) 15:56, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- With respect, that's not quite my position, which is that if a statute of limitations is to be applied to you - say any wrong-doing more than two years ago will be disregarded - then it should be applied equally to all editors, which it clearly is not. I'm quite prepared to believe that you're genuine in your remarks above, but that's not my point. Dr Horncastle (talk) 17:34, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- The fact GRuban chose to reveal I had emailed him a couple of days ago is yet another example that he is untrustworthy and does not possess the qualities required in an admin. SagaciousPhil - Chat 18:02, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- That's ridiculous. Sending an email does not grant you a permanent guarantee that nobody will even say you sent it and it never has. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:24, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Horseshit. Complete and utter rubbish. See Wikipedia:Emailing users#Reposting emails publicly: "
Users who feel they are allowed to repost text from an email (or other off-wiki source), or that it is right to do so, are advised to take caution and consult beforehand, to ensure they do not accidentally create a problem for themselves or a negative perception by doing so
" (my emphasis). Feet first action with regard to offwiki activity is a bloody awful step to take. Beeb, you've been an Admin for 12 years: you're supposed to know this stuff. - SchroCat (talk) 18:31, 6 November 2019 (UTC)SchroCat,Never mind, had missed that the candidate had gone beyond merely mentioning that they'd been emailed, in their comment. Usedtobecool TALK ✨ 19:42, 6 November 2019 (UTC)... text from an email ...
Usedtobecool TALK ✨ 19:16, 6 November 2019 (UTC)If you really think that defending a stalker who posts the general contents of off-wiki emails in their own RfA is a good advertisement for the standard of administrator you want, I think that speaks volumes about the desperate steps people are willing to go to. - SchroCat (talk) 19:35, 6 November 2019 (UTC)- Usedtobecool: thank you for striking your comment. In the light of that, I have done likewise with mine. - SchroCat (talk) 20:59, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- "Defending a stalker" - I'm sure you don't intend this, but that comes across as a manipulative & repressible attack against two good quality editors. If you have something to say against fellow participants, at least have the decency to say it directly & cut out the passive aggression. FeydHuxtable (talk) 20:24, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- There was no passive agression there and nothing manipulative. I have chosen my words carefully given the circumstances (and there are enough diffs to back up what I have said). Perhaps your energies woud be better off directed elsewhere? - SchroCat (talk) 20:57, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Horseshit. Complete and utter rubbish. See Wikipedia:Emailing users#Reposting emails publicly: "
- That's ridiculous. Sending an email does not grant you a permanent guarantee that nobody will even say you sent it and it never has. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:24, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- You're right, and I thank you. I do recognize the hurt those actions caused, and apologize. SagaciousPhil emailed me yesterday, ..., and as I wrote her, I remember another amazing person whom I admired but who had to leave the Wikipedia because of external harassment. She was a respected admin, and yet kind; I'd be proud if I could emulate her. I recognize that for some people working on Wikipedia isn't fun, but painful, and I'm sorry for contributing to that. I regret it, wouldn't do it again in a similar case, and haven't in the time since. If there is a way that I can help instead of hurt, please say. That's why I'm running, because I believe I have learned, and that I can help more as an admin, and I hope the community believes the same. While I accept that some, like Dr Horncastle, believe there there is no statute of limitations, I do believe people can learn, and that I have, and I hope the community believes that as well. I trust the community, and I hope the community can trust me. --GRuban (talk) 15:56, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- I used the past tense for a reason. Again, the lack of awareness of the effect ones actions can have on others - particularly in regard to stalking - is a huge red flag that this editor will show similar obliviousness when using the tools. How many people were chased off the site, or felt threatened by the stalking? It's just not good enough to say this was a couple of years ago: the lack of attention to the effects of ones actions is enough for me. Adminship is a big deal, and crap admins can drive off scores of people before they are brought to heel; someone with a history of stalking should not have powers over others. - SchroCat (talk) 10:37, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- GRuban: would you consider redacting the portions of your comment that disclose contents of a private email that the sender has indicated was not meant for public consumption? –xenotalk 19:58, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- OK. --GRuban (talk) 21:21, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- "deeply concerning you tried to defend and justify it" - is this referring to concern that they initially did so (at the time) or when they said why they chose to act like that in Q7? I just ask, because in the latter, they specifically indicate that their action was wrong and their reasoning was wrong - they aren't giving a current defence, but their previous incorrect defence. Obviously this is a very legitimate grounds to oppose, but I wasn't sure how to read your oppose so wanted to clarify your intent. Nosebagbear (talk) 09:36, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per SchroCat. His concerns are well-put; stalking, however you name or define it, is unacceptable behavior and certainly unbecoming of an admin.--WaltCip (talk) 15:17, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose I was concerned by the above incident but still undecided. But you really revealed a private conversation without permission to try to show why you should be an admin? Clearly your judgement can not be trusted.--Cube lurker (talk) 18:13, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose The email issue is a killer, even if there hadn't been other concerns. This user had been around for 14 years and should know just by WP:EMAIL that you do NOT just casually reveal the contents of a private email for any reason. That's why emails are offline, and not accessible to anybody but the sender and recipient. If the other individual had wanted their conversation to be public, they would have posted it on Wikipedia. That's an invasion of privacy under any circumstances. It begs the question of whether any individual who would reveal email content would also post that same content on other websites. But we sure don't want admins who act so carelessly. There are other issues. The nominee has "created" 93 articles, the majority stubs or starts. His several thousand edits to BLPs seem to be a lot of either adding an image or changing a word here and there. An adminship is more than the tools to make changes others can't. Please peruse WP:ANI - we rely on our admins to sometimes make hard decisions, referee disputes. There is nothing in the nominee's background that suggests to me he has the knowledge base. The background experience of admins often affects how our policies are made or changed. And emails are private conversations. — Maile (talk) 19:33, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Disappointing to see what appears to be gross misrepresentation of policy by an admin. Even with regards to posting the whole text of an email, WP:Email clearly states
There is no formal consensus by the community at this time, regarding the reposting of private off-wiki correspondence to Wikipedia's public pages.
It goes onto say there may be concerns on copy right grounds - if you read WP:EMAIL#Reposting emails publicly , that's why it advises consulting before hand. The policy section ends by saying quoting brief phrases is generally unaffected by the concern. So GRuban's half a sentence paraphrase was in no way prohibited by policy. - The candidate obviously had the best of motivations. He mentioned the email not to defend his RfA, but in an admittedly ham-fisted attempt to make amends for his past mistake. He wanted to highlight how even tracking user contributions with good intentions can still sometimes cause considerable distress to some users - something he sees now but didn't back in 2018. He obviously thought he was doing SagaciousPhil a favour by raising awareness. Hence why it likely didn't occur to him to check in advance.
- That said, referring to the email was quite a misjudgement. GRuban clearly doesn't yet grasp that users vary massively on how they weigh Transparency v Privacy. And that when dealing with the more guarded & reserved users, it's collegial to be hyper careful not to say anything they'd consider intrusive or boundary pushing. Still, even if the candidate was standing for high political office, the mistake is easily offset by the candidates many good qualities. FeydHuxtable (talk) 20:24, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Your mealy-mouthed defense of this breach of trust is laughable considering your prior opposition to a candidate for including the word "Girth" in their username.--WaltCip (talk) 20:41, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- "
concerns on copy right grounds - if you read WP:EMAIL#Reposting emails publicly , that's why it advises consulting before hand
". That's rather misleading. Try WP:EMAILPOST: "The Wikipedia Arbitration Committee once stated as an editing principle that "In the absence of permission from the author (including of any included prior correspondence) or their lapse into public domain, the contents of private correspondence, including e-mails, should not be posted on-wiki"
". You can keep trying to defend the indefensible, but such desperate steps to negate a very real problem without acknowledging its seriousness does the candidate no good whatsoever. – SchroCat (talk) 21:12, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- WP:HOUND While we're at it, this is my personal account of being stalked in my early years, by someone who purported to be acting in the best intents for Wikipedia. But a stalker is a stalker, and has the same effect regardless of where they do their thing. I was having a pleasant time just doing editing and figuring out all the ins and outs of Wikipedia. Then Editor#1, a non-admin, took it upon their self to delete/rewrite/redirect/reformat something I had spent a lot of time on. No explanation, no nothing. Editor#2 got involved and tried to help me figure out what was what. I moved on, edited elsewhere in smaller bits, in totally different subject matters. And yet Editor#1 kept coming, changing my edits, if any explanation was given, it was a ha--ha-ha-ha good-natured something about Wikipedia rules/styles/whatever they made up. Don't you know, stalkerrs excuse themselves. Fact of the matter was, Editor#1 was making wholesale stylistic changes. Low and behold, Editor#1 already had more than one logged complaint against them for long-term stalking of Editor#2. I looked over my shoulder for a long time, and Editor#1 got blocked. Then Ediitor#1 got unblocked by someone else. That pattern repeated for years. But for a long time, I never stopped looking over my shoulder for Editor#1. They did return, as multiple socks, same pattern and multiple blocks. A person who is being stalked knows it. Just as anyone who has been on Wikipedia for 14 years, knows it. We should not tolerate that at Wikipedia, anymore than in RL. And, BTW, I have no sense of humor about anyone belittling this experience of mine. I lived it. — Maile (talk) 21:20, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- What you describe is very different from what GRuban did in both degree and intent. I'm not thrilled that he revealed the fact that SagaciousPhil emailed him (the implication of an email is that it's a private conversation), and I do think his actions pushed against boundaries, but I don't think it's fair to place GRuban in the same category as "Editor#1". Kurtis (talk) 23:17, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- You have misunderstood. My comment was in response to the mentions of the alleged stalking issue, from Support 1 on down. Not specifically the email. Every case of stalking or alleged stalking is different and should be reported. I see from various comments above, that there seems to be more than one idea of what does - and does not - constitute stalking. I wanted to give my own story as an example. I was so new at Wikipedia, I didn't know this should have been reported per WP:DWH. Every person on Wikipedia who claims to have been stalked, should be taken seriously, not dismissed because somebody else thinks their case is not stalking. In my case, when I was trying to deal with it, I got email messages from my stalker's oh-so-friendly enablers telling me that I just misunderstood and shouldn't complain. At that time, I changed Preferences so I could not be emailed, and have left it that way. — Maile (talk) 01:04, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- Don't worry, I understood what you were saying. I mentioned the email as something from the recent past that I think GRuban mishandled. I'm responding as the person who's been the most vocal against stalking allegations in this particular instance. I agree that accusations should be taken seriously, and I also want to re-emphasize my point that SagaciousPhil had reason to feel uncomfortable. But I don't think that the accusations of stalking really hold much water in this case. By his own admission, he did peruse the editing histories of people he disagreed with to try and make amends, the effect of which he should have taken into consideration beforehand. Once it was brought to his attention that he was making people uncomfortable, he disengaged. The threshold for something to be defined as stalking should be much higher than a one-off instance of mildly invasive or creepy behavior, in my opinion. Kurtis (talk) 02:32, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- You have misunderstood. My comment was in response to the mentions of the alleged stalking issue, from Support 1 on down. Not specifically the email. Every case of stalking or alleged stalking is different and should be reported. I see from various comments above, that there seems to be more than one idea of what does - and does not - constitute stalking. I wanted to give my own story as an example. I was so new at Wikipedia, I didn't know this should have been reported per WP:DWH. Every person on Wikipedia who claims to have been stalked, should be taken seriously, not dismissed because somebody else thinks their case is not stalking. In my case, when I was trying to deal with it, I got email messages from my stalker's oh-so-friendly enablers telling me that I just misunderstood and shouldn't complain. At that time, I changed Preferences so I could not be emailed, and have left it that way. — Maile (talk) 01:04, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- What you describe is very different from what GRuban did in both degree and intent. I'm not thrilled that he revealed the fact that SagaciousPhil emailed him (the implication of an email is that it's a private conversation), and I do think his actions pushed against boundaries, but I don't think it's fair to place GRuban in the same category as "Editor#1". Kurtis (talk) 23:17, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Disappointing to see what appears to be gross misrepresentation of policy by an admin. Even with regards to posting the whole text of an email, WP:Email clearly states
- Oppose (moved from Support) - The harassment thing although a deep concern happened nearly 2 years ago so sort of let it slide as previous mistakes shouldn't be held against that person forever, The revealing of the email above is what puts me here - If they're going to reveal the contents of one email (presumably without asking first) then who's to say they won't repeat this elsewhere?.... Emails should always be kept between the sender and recipient and should NEVER be broadcasted to the world (unless you have their blessing), Being an admin involves trust which unfortunately here there isn't any. –Davey2010Talk 19:57, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose per the hounding issues and because of the email referenced in this very RFA. Calidum 20:33, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose per the very good arguments above, and those supporting above are complicit in advocating such disturbing behaviour. CassiantoTalk 20:47, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose for multiple reasons, #1.) the User talk:GRuban/RfA page just seems like too much ... something. It's something I noticed some time ago, and the super sweet 'please be my nom' style of commenting just struck me ... odd. #2.) In Q3. they list the User:GRuban/Conflicts page as "conflicts", but it appears to be a selective choice with a 'look what I did good' view. It doesn't include the conflicts here, or here (GRuban introduced those diffs of early 2018, so I feel perfectly free to also reference that time frame) ... which brings us to #3.) They were given what equates to a {{Uw-harass4im}} warning by Iridescent on the January 17, 2018 [1], then they turn around and flaunt another following another editors edits (User:SchroCat/Littertray 2 restored by permission is the page in question) actions on the 18th at Iridescent's talk page.[2]. (and clearly states in the header there is a "creepiness" factor in play). IMO this is well beyond the {{tpw}} standards. ... and #4.) The posting of personal information that was divulged to them by email which they then display in this RfA. (note: It's a bell that can't be un-rung, but it could be removed and/or oversighted if the offended party asked). — Ched (talk) 21:40, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Now 1 and 2 might push me to neutral, but 3 and 4 definitely move me here to the oppose section without further research because I feel there is a severe lack of good judgment; even if it is with the best of intentions. With AGF, I'd say that GRuban needs to learn how to edit in a less troublesome fashion and show much better judgment wrt to Wikipedia before I could support. — Ched (talk) 21:40, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Ched Where or to whom should the removal/oversighting be requested? SagaciousPhil - Chat 22:05, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Sagaciousphil - the top of Wikipedia:Oversight has a couple links, at least one to email. And the Wikipedia:Oversight#Oversighters section lists individuals you can contact as well. — Ched (talk) 22:16, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Ched Where or to whom should the removal/oversighting be requested? SagaciousPhil - Chat 22:05, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Now 1 and 2 might push me to neutral, but 3 and 4 definitely move me here to the oppose section without further research because I feel there is a severe lack of good judgment; even if it is with the best of intentions. With AGF, I'd say that GRuban needs to learn how to edit in a less troublesome fashion and show much better judgment wrt to Wikipedia before I could support. — Ched (talk) 21:40, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose. As demonstrated above, in particular by User:Ched, this candidate is absolutely unworthy of admin tools.--Darwinek (talk) 00:24, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- Strong oppose Sorry, but no. The email and stalking issues are far too glaring for me to support this RfA. If nothing else, it demonstrates a clear lack of judgment and discretion, which is a key trait that the community should expect from administrators. OhKayeSierra (talk) 02:29, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose mostly per Ched's reasoning. Stalking should be beyond the pale, and the total cluelessness displayed by posting the contents of a personal e-mail is the nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned. Intothatdarkness 02:48, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose. Anyone who stalks (or harasses) any editor — whose actions resulted in a warning * about it — does not deserve access to adminship bells and whistles. Content creator, prolific contributor, lovely summaries, understands AfD and DYK procedures ... so what? Perhaps more editors need to be on the receiving end of stalking to realize why such personal behavior is neither natural, nor ignorable. And if that isn't bad enough, we find out that the same Admin-wannabe also disclosed the contents of a personal email. This is not Alice-in-Wonderland Wikipedia. Pyxis Solitary (yak) 04:56, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose Disclosure of private communications in an attempt to defend prior questionable actions is clearly demonstrative of an editor that does not have the discretion needed for advanced permissions. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 06:04, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- I am opposing per the arguments of SchroCat, Sagaciousphil, Ched, and Cassianto. A one-off incident a couple years back is a mistake. A continuation of the issues is a problem. Reaper Eternal (talk) 06:28, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose because RfAs are about trust, and especially the email issue shows a big breach in trust. I have written about Wikipedia issues off-site, and even then chose to never reveal the contents of Wikipedia emails. Adminship is permanent (unless this RfC passes), so issues like this should be given weight. --Pudeo (talk) 07:51, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- Pudeo - just wanted to touch base with you regarding the original context and why I consider the claim to be exaggerated. GRuban is honest to a fault and clearly non-combative, kind and generous with his time and contributions to the project. Many of us have used (talk page stalker) when it should be collaborative editor [3]. Some editors may even consider a user's watchlist to be a form of stalking. I certainly don't and truly appreciate copy editors following behind me. To further demonstrate the upstanding character of GRuban, despite the harshness show him when an innocent event unraveled, he rose above it. That is the kind of character I appreciate in an admin. Atsme Talk 📧 10:01, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose (moved from Support) I was willing to assume that the previously mentioned incident was well in the past and the candidate has learned from it. Unfortunately, revealing contents of a private email during this request without the other person's consent (something I'm sure neither Kudpung nor Lourdes could have predicted) and then needing to be prompted to redact it is an example of bad judgment that I cannot ignore and which overshadows all otherwise good contributions to the point that I can no longer support this request. Regards SoWhy 10:16, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose We all make mistakes, but revealing personal details of an email in this RfA in order to gain oneself some support is not a mistake an admin candidate should be making. While there is much to like in GRuban, and I feel they have learned from the "harassment incident" such that that by itself isn't for me a significant reason by itself to oppose, that they have made a similar gaff with the same person, is a mistake too far. Redacting it was the right thing to do, but GRuban needed to be prompted to do that. This is not about knowing rules or guidelines, but about respecting the feelings and dignity of others, particularly those for whom an extra level of consideration is due, such as those one has hurt. SilkTork (talk) 10:20, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
Neutral
#Neutral pending response to Q7.
The fact that Iri (who I respect immensely) is !voting support is a major incitement for me to do the same, despite the issue, but I think it best to wait for a response (misread through my screen, my fault) Nosebagbear (talk) 20:13, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
- Moved to support (please note the centre part was still wrong reading from me, but I can't "double strike") Nosebagbear (talk)
- Neutral - Awaiting answers to a few questions. Would like to know if the user plans to be more active as an admin. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 21:35, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
Neutral - Per Sagaciousphil and SchroCat. The behavior is concerning, but it was two years ago. Reaper Eternal (talk) 17:02, 6 November 2019 (UTC)- A leopard never changes its spots, and if this was RL, mud would rightly stick, so no, the fact it's been two years is irrelevant. CassiantoTalk 20:53, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- I'm a firm believer that people can change. However, the email incident above is yet another strike against the candidate, so I will be moving to oppose. Reaper Eternal (talk) 06:28, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- A leopard never changes its spots, and if this was RL, mud would rightly stick, so no, the fact it's been two years is irrelevant. CassiantoTalk 20:53, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Neutral (from Support) My initial support was based largely on "Why not", but editors have given valid rebuttals to that question. I want to think longer and harder about this request, so I'm moving to neutral until I have time to look into the concerns raised. Wug·a·po·des 18:59, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- I think I will likely remain here. While the inciting incident for the opposes was almost 2 years ago, the revelation of private correspondences was today, and these unforced errors do not inspire confidence. Will this editor be a net positive with the tools? I don't know the answer, and I doubt I will come by it in the next few days. I would rather sit this one out. Wug·a·po·des 07:03, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
- Neutral I am unfamiliar with Gruban or their work, but was leaning support. But the wikihounding incident concerns me. I don't think we've gotten to the bottom of the issue yet. The series of events remains muddy to me. I will hold off on a vote until more discussion has been had on the matter. Captain Eek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 19:32, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Neutral I reread the bit about the email and am now undecided. At first blush I thought that GRuban had only revealed that an email had been sent, and alluded to the contents of his reply. I did not realize that he had also paraphrased the other side of the conversation, and I need to think about this further before making a real vote. signed, Rosguill talk 19:42, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Neutral (Moved from neutral, to support, now here again) at the distinct risk of ping-ponging, the email issue has me concerned. Unlike comments above about individuals never changing (which as a general statement on wikipedians is completely incorrect), I don't think this is a relapse into wikihounding behaviour. I do however think it is an instance of significant poor judgement for an RfA candidate aware they're on thin ice. There is also still ambiguity remaining. As such, I feel neutral is best for now - if I move again it will be on the final day. Nosebagbear (talk) 22:06, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Neutral (moved from support). I'll just park it here after reading the "oppose" section. Steel1943 (talk) 23:36, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Neutral Very much expected to support, even with the concerns from two years ago ~ of course people can and do change, on a regular basis, despite some statements above. The current e-mail incident, however, is a little too much for me this moment. Happy days, LindsayHello 08:27, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
General comments
- Supporting is hard based on Serial_Number_54129's diff, even though the candidate seemed to be trying to resolve disputes in good faith at the time. Airbornemihir (talk) 07:09, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) So, I've been looking into the issue described in Q7, in which GRuban was very explicitly accused of stalking by multiple editors. What I gather from reading the diffs is that GRuban mistakenly amended the spelling of Carolina Nairne's name in an external link and was reverted by another editor in very harsh and dismissive terms. GRuban clearly felt that he had offended this other editor and apologized on their talk page. After doing so, he commented on an RfC for the article Cary Grant, in which the very same editor had also participated nearly two weeks prior. GRuban was twice reverted by a third-party who asserted that because Legobot had delisted the discussion, it was effectively closed. When GRuban raised the issue on that editor's talk page, several others accused him of being a stalker for participating in the same RfC as the editor who reverted him on Carolina Nairne. He admitted that he came across the discussion after looking through the editor's contribution history, which is not a wise thing to admit to doing publicly – particularly not after said editor has already expressed discomfort with the situation. Following this, GRuban was threatened with a block for harassment.
First, let me make one thing clear: I view stalking as an extremely serious matter. It is not a joke, and it is not funny. It is a crime. That is why "stalking" is not a word to be thrown around loosely over what could conceivably be nothing more than a coincidence. Now, do I think the editor who reverted GRuban had a valid reason for feeling uncomfortable? Yes, I do – and even if I didn't, it doesn't matter, because I don't have the authority to define other people's boundaries for them. I am not criticizing this editor for expressing discomfort, nor should what I'm saying be interpreted as an invalidation of their feelings. It is perfectly understandable that they would be uncomfortable with GRuban's actions, particularly as he admitted to going through their contribution history and accessing the RfC from there. I think a simple "just be mindful of how you're coming across next time" was warranted, and GRuban had clearly taken this experience to heart. But he did not stalk anyone. Unwittingly overstepping a person's boundaries on one occasion is not the same thing as stalking them. And I say this as someone who strongly believes that there doesn't need to be malicious intent for something to be classified as harassment or stalking.
I understand that this RfA is currently on track to pass, and that this incident is seen as ancient history (i.e. almost two years ago) from which the candidate has grown, so this comment is perhaps unnecessary. But people throwing around accusations of "stalking" and "harassment" as if those words don't mean anything is something that really gets under my skin. Stalking is a crime. It has a real, lasting impact on those who are subjected to it. Wantonly accusing people of engaging in stalking behavior trivializes the suffering that victims go through. It is not a joke. It is not funny. It is a crime. Kurtis (talk) 08:21, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- @Kurtis: For the record, WP:HARASSMENT— blue linked and all caps—Is a particular behavioral policy on the English Wikipedia, and should not be conflated with harassment in real world jurisdictions. It is a crime in most jurisdictions, but not on Wikipedia. So no: no-one's
throwing around accusations
, merely providing policy-backed arguments in an internal Wikipedia process. Your passion does you credit, but you are mistaken. ——SN54129 10:43, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I see your point. But remember, I'm not in any way suggesting that GRuban's actions were appropriate. They were mildly harassing in nature, even if he had the best of intentions. GRuban's behavior at the time was inappropriate, and he realizes this now. But stalking? In my view, no. Hounding (or "wiki-hounding") is what I would call it. Kurtis (talk) 11:22, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- @Kurtis: For the record, WP:HARASSMENT— blue linked and all caps—Is a particular behavioral policy on the English Wikipedia, and should not be conflated with harassment in real world jurisdictions. It is a crime in most jurisdictions, but not on Wikipedia. So no: no-one's
- I wanted to add that I've looked into it a bit further. Apparently GRuban also edited the same pages as SagaciousPhil (whose name I am now using, as she has participated in this RfA), and submitted an RfC on Nairne's talk page the next day. While this does make the discomfort more justifiable, I stand by what I said about stalking not being an appropriate word to use in this context. At most, GRuban innocently pressed against boundaries, and did so out of a desire to edit collaboratively with those who've disagreed with him in the past. Kurtis (talk) 08:36, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- No, he was stalking. If you think what he did wasn't stalking or was somehow appropriate, then you need to read the policies and guidelines more closely. Following people round various articles is stalking, no matter how much you try and defend the indefensible. - SchroCat (talk) 10:41, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- The very next comment he made was "I'm sorry, I was wrong, please accept my apologies" and he dropped out of the discussion. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:54, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- After having been warned by iridescent: whiiich most editors would, if they were sensible. ——SN54129 11:04, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Indeed, and Iri's commment was made after several people had told him it was stalking and GRuban disagreed, over and over. A deeply nastys et of actions cannot be set aside with a rather trite "We are all on the same side" platitude. - SchroCat (talk) 11:09, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- After having been warned by iridescent: whiiich most editors would, if they were sensible. ——SN54129 11:04, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Keep in mind though, I'm not saying that he was acting in an appropriate manner – remember, I did say that SagaciousPhil was justified in feeling uncomfortable – but rather that stalking is a term with legal implications. There's a reason WP:STALK has long since been made into a soft redirect. It's the same as when someone is accused of stalking for merely looking at someone's Facebook photos without their knowledge. Something can be creepy or inappropriate, and not be a crime. What GRuban did would be more accurately referred to as wiki-hounding, which technically is a milder form of harassment. But stalking? No, in my opinion that's too strong of a word. Kurtis (talk) 11:22, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- The very next comment he made was "I'm sorry, I was wrong, please accept my apologies" and he dropped out of the discussion. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:54, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
Clerk note: Briefly, per the note at WP:STALK, it looks like there’s been efforts to deprecate use of the term “stalking” (with all its real-world implications) when referring to purely onwiki activity; instead replacing that term with “wikihounding”. Sagaciousphil/SchroCat, would you be willing to reconsider your word choice? –xenotalk 11:11, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Yet no one objected when members of ArbCom used the words stalking and harassment in the proposed decision against Fram? Double standards once again being applied? SagaciousPhil - Chat 11:38, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- (Personally) My stance on that debacle is known: it was a shambles from start to finish. Though I see only limited and indirect use of the word stalk. –xenotalk 11:45, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- I reflected the language contained within the warning issued:
...but you're coming across as a really, really, creepy stalker in virtually every word of your posts above,...
and further:If you want to make this official I can give a Uw-harass4im on your talkpage, but you've been here long enough that I'd expect you to know a basic policy like WP:HARASS without having it explained to you.
SagaciousPhil - Chat 11:58, 6 November 2019 (UTC)- Iridescent has never been one to mince words; though they did couch them (“coming across as”). Different venue, different audience, different purpose. Using the proper term (“wikihounding”) neatly avoids the concerns raised by Kurtis without taking away from the thrust of the oppositional argument. –xenotalk 12:41, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Why not focus on what the candidate actually did rather than try to minimise its impact by playing with words? Dr Horncastle (talk) 13:35, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- As RfA clerks, ours is not to focus on what a candidate did, but to ensure they are treated fairly by the participants. An aspect of fairness is using appropriate terms that are not heavily loaded with real-world meaning when referring to specifically onwiki behaviour. –xenotalk 13:43, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- I see. I imagine that task would be immeasurably easier if Wikipedia used words to mean the same as they do in the real world, rather than inventing some arcane new Humpty Dumpty-like language. Dr Horncastle (talk) 14:01, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- @Dr Horncastle: - for that to work you'd need everyone to always use the words in line with their actual legal definitions - and we'd end up bogged down in what exactly that was Nosebagbear (talk) 14:51, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- I see. I imagine that task would be immeasurably easier if Wikipedia used words to mean the same as they do in the real world, rather than inventing some arcane new Humpty Dumpty-like language. Dr Horncastle (talk) 14:01, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- As RfA clerks, ours is not to focus on what a candidate did, but to ensure they are treated fairly by the participants. An aspect of fairness is using appropriate terms that are not heavily loaded with real-world meaning when referring to specifically onwiki behaviour. –xenotalk 13:43, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Why not focus on what the candidate actually did rather than try to minimise its impact by playing with words? Dr Horncastle (talk) 13:35, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Iridescent has never been one to mince words; though they did couch them (“coming across as”). Different venue, different audience, different purpose. Using the proper term (“wikihounding”) neatly avoids the concerns raised by Kurtis without taking away from the thrust of the oppositional argument. –xenotalk 12:41, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- It should also be noted that the candidate continued to follow/annoy/harass (insert word of your choice) here. There is something wrong with that archive - looks like someone didn't close a tag? SagaciousPhil - Chat 12:04, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- I didn't realise he carried on going through my sandbox after he'd been told to knock it off... bizzare behaviour and not what I would want to see in an admin. - SchroCat (talk) 12:18, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- I reflected the language contained within the warning issued:
- (Personally) My stance on that debacle is known: it was a shambles from start to finish. Though I see only limited and indirect use of the word stalk. –xenotalk 11:45, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Yet no one objected when members of ArbCom used the words stalking and harassment in the proposed decision against Fram? Double standards once again being applied? SagaciousPhil - Chat 11:38, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- In any case, everyon's getting extremely bogged down in defining/redefining/dedefining "stalk / stalking", when in fact the linked page was WP:HARASS: Not a soft redirect to meta; not quasi-legalistically comparable to whatever jurisdiction an editor happens to be under, but Wikipedia policy
that all users should normally follow
. ——SN54129 15:45, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- It is not unusual to have talk page watchers - I welcome them. What concerns me more are editors who oppose it, which I view as contradictory to the collaborative spirit we expect on WP. Of course, a single incident that GRuban sincerely apologized for back in Jan 2018, which is nearly 2 years ago, is now causing drama it doesn't deserve. I would appreciate an admin moving this discussion over to the TP as they've done for other RfAs. I also object to the PAs against this candidate (creepy, stalking/harassing behaviour) which I find offensive and unwarranted. Atsme Talk 📧 15:46, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Except it was not “a single incident” GRuban acknowledged at the time it was a usual practice, and even continued it after several editors and an admin told them, in no un detain terms, to stop. I think everyone has probably done it once or twice, but GRuban makes it clear that it was a normal practice, not a one-off. - SchroCat (talk) 17:03, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Point accepted Schro. If you believe his apology above for what he did back in Jan 2018 lacks sincerity or commitment, do say and I'll convey the same strongly to him. If you believe otherwise, I'll appreciate that too. Irrespective, as I said, point taken and accepted. I'm confident GRuban would not prove us wrong. I hope you and Sagacious are able to perceive the same. Warmly, Lourdes 17:08, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- Except it was not “a single incident” GRuban acknowledged at the time it was a usual practice, and even continued it after several editors and an admin told them, in no un detain terms, to stop. I think everyone has probably done it once or twice, but GRuban makes it clear that it was a normal practice, not a one-off. - SchroCat (talk) 17:03, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- It is not unusual to have talk page watchers - I welcome them. What concerns me more are editors who oppose it, which I view as contradictory to the collaborative spirit we expect on WP. Of course, a single incident that GRuban sincerely apologized for back in Jan 2018, which is nearly 2 years ago, is now causing drama it doesn't deserve. I would appreciate an admin moving this discussion over to the TP as they've done for other RfAs. I also object to the PAs against this candidate (creepy, stalking/harassing behaviour) which I find offensive and unwarranted. Atsme Talk 📧 15:46, 6 November 2019 (UTC)
- This incident has been blown out of proportion. Sad. I’ve worked collaboratively with GRuban on and off over the years - he is NOT what some editors have portrayed him to be. No matter what he does or says, we will have editors who are going to blow it all out of proportion. Welcome to RfA!! Now we know why good editors are reluctant to put their names in the hat. I have been harassed, hounded and stalked - for real - gunshots left as message on my cell phone - this good editor has done nothing out of the ordinary or to deserve this kind of scrutiny. If and when any editor attempts to tell me they have never watched another editor’s UTP, I am reminded of my years as as an advanced underwater scuba instructor and students would deny they ever peed in their wetsuit. I’d tell them it’s ok to be up front about it - no one is going to blame them for polluting the ocean, but please, rinse your wetsuit in a different tank from mine. Atsme Talk 📧 23:40, 6 November 2019 (UTC)