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I've been canvassing some support recently, as some of you may have seen, for a program/project to harmonise all of the user page templates and warnings. I'm looking for an admin, not necessarily to carry out much work, but who will be able to point me in the right direction, on certain issues. I'm willing to do all the leg work, but could just do with someone ''sitting on my shoulder'' to achieve this goal. If you're interested, or would like to know more please see [[User:Khukri/templates|here]] .Have a glance through all the different types of warnings and if you have any ideas please list them. |
I've been canvassing some support recently, as some of you may have seen, for a program/project to harmonise all of the user page templates and warnings. I'm looking for an admin, not necessarily to carry out much work, but who will be able to point me in the right direction, on certain issues. I'm willing to do all the leg work, but could just do with someone ''sitting on my shoulder'' to achieve this goal. If you're interested, or would like to know more please see [[User:Khukri/templates|here]] .Have a glance through all the different types of warnings and if you have any ideas please list them. |
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:This doesn't necessarily apply just to admins hence the reason copied here, but anyone with suggestions or willing to contribute to create a standard for users page warnings and messages. Regards [[User:Khukri|'''Khukri''']] <sup>([[User_talk:Khukri|'''<font face="verdana">talk</font>''']] . [[Special:Contributions/Khukri|'''<font face="verdana">contribs</font>''']])</sup> 12:44, 20 October 2006 (UTC) |
:This doesn't necessarily apply just to admins hence the reason copied here, but anyone with suggestions or willing to contribute to create a standard for users page warnings and messages. Regards [[User:Khukri|'''Khukri''']] <sup>([[User_talk:Khukri|'''<font face="verdana">talk</font>''']] . [[Special:Contributions/Khukri|'''<font face="verdana">contribs</font>''']])</sup> 12:44, 20 October 2006 (UTC) |
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== [[Wikipedia:Notability (pornographic actors)]] as notability guideline == |
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This proposed guideline has been extensively used and referred to for its intended purpose, to simplify [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion]] discussion, during the past five months, an average of more than every other day. It has simplified discussion, and made it less contentious. It has grown and reacted to discussion and the results of those AfDs; it reflects community practice, and is the sum of many points of view. It has been five months as a proposal. It is not perfect, but it is a lot better than nothing. I believe it is now time to mark it as a full fledged notability guideline, and subset of [[WP:BIO]]. |
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Please discuss at [[Wikipedia talk:Notability (pornographic actors)#Ready to become a notability criteria guideline]], and help us reach consensus on marking it as such. [[User:AnonEMouse|AnonEMouse]] <sup>[[User_talk:AnonEMouse|(squeak)]]</sup> 16:02, 20 October 2006 (UTC) |
Revision as of 16:02, 20 October 2006
Discussions older than 7 days (date of last made comment) are moved here. These discussions will be kept archived for 7 more days. During this period the discussion can be moved to a relevant talk page if appropriate. After 7 days the discussion will be permanently removed.
Proposed naming convention: military vehicles
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (military vehicles): please comment on the talk page. —Michael Z. 2006-08-15 20:50 Z
Suggestion for German language page approval implementation
This post has been moved to the proposal page Wikipedia:German page approval solution
Proposal: RfA process
See initial draft at Wikipedia:Requests for adminship process
Honoring Nazi and Al-Qaeda copyrights
Why are we honoring Nazi and Al-Qaeda copyrights? Examples:
Is it even legal under U.S. law to honor these? Does the Foundation have an opinion? - CrazyRussian talk/email 03:16, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- If the copyright holders are Nazis or Al Queda, screw them and use the pic. Terrorist organizations have no legal rights. Use the pic. It's legal. Tobyk777 03:52, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is supposedly not copyright paranoid, and I think that not using those images due to a potential lawsuit from Osama Bin Laden or Hitler's ghost is probably the highest form of copyright paranoia imaginable. --tjstrf 04:12, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- If the copyright holders are Nazis or Al Queda, screw them and use the pic. Terrorist organizations have no legal rights. Use the pic. It's legal. Tobyk777 03:52, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- Who owns the copyright on such works can be a complicated question. For example, some works (such as Nazi imagery) may well have passed into the hands of more enlightened governments/organizations who may choose to enforce the copyright specifically to prevent such materials from being republished. Nor is copyright automatically ceded just because the owner is currently associated with a terrorist organization, though it would certainly make it difficult to raise the issue in a US court while actively pursued for terrorism. Dragons flight 04:25, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- LOL I am sure it's a prosecutable offense in the U.S. to sell Osama a kg of apples. Is respecting his copyrights somehow different? - CrazyRussian talk/email 10:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, it's a civil matter. That's how it is different. More to the point, after he is dead any copyright he holds would pass to his estate/kin. Sooner or later it is entirely plausible that a non-terrorist will have control. Dragons flight 10:24, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- Even more to the point, it's arguable if we are aiding him in any way by respecting copyrights...
- Yes, it's a civil matter. That's how it is different. More to the point, after he is dead any copyright he holds would pass to his estate/kin. Sooner or later it is entirely plausible that a non-terrorist will have control. Dragons flight 10:24, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- LOL I am sure it's a prosecutable offense in the U.S. to sell Osama a kg of apples. Is respecting his copyrights somehow different? - CrazyRussian talk/email 10:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- Terrorist organizations have no legal rights. Say what? A copyright is a copyright. Period. We should respect those copyrights regardless of what one might think of the copyright holder. It's not about being paranoid, it's about respecting the spirit of copyright law. Shame on anyone who thinks that we can disregard it on political grounds. Pascal.Tesson 10:48, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- Shame? This was a legal question, not a political one. The question was, is it permissible under U.S. law to honor copyrights held by declared enemies and terrorist organizations. - CrazyRussian talk/email 11:48, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- This discussion is a good reason why we should not rely on amateurs for legal advice. No matter how much you dislike someone, it doesn't make it legally safe to embark upon paths like this. --Improv 13:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- Quite. Reparations to Germany were halted by the Petersberg agreement of 1949-11-22, and the only exclusions of 17 U.S.C. 104A are copyrights had once been seized under the Trading with the Enemy Act and which would otherwise be held by governments (this is not the case for German images, for which the copyrights are held by the original artist or photographer). Al-Quaeda falls within the remit of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, which means that their copyrights (or, more strictly, copyrights which are owned by the individuals named) may or may not have been seized by the U.S. federal government. This shows the importance of the fair use tag: we may be (fairly) infringing the copyright of the U.S. government, not of some terrorist organization. It is simply wrong to state that these images are in the public domain for the sole reason that their authors are not to our taste. Physchim62 (talk) 14:57, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- Note that the very point of the Trading with the Enemy Act is to allow the U.S. government to receive payments which it would otherwise be illegal to make! But in any case, WP doesn't pay anyone for copyrighted material :) Physchim62 (talk) 15:00, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- The issue of who has copyright in NSDAP generated material has been litigated. [1]. In Germany, Transit-Film, which is owned by the Federal Republic of Germany, has the rights to NSDAP film of that period, including Triumph of the Will. In the UK, those copyrights were extingushed by the Enemy Property Act of 1953. Not clear what the US copyright situation is. --John Nagle 04:15, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- The situation in the US is quite confused. At various times they have been honored, not honored, voided, or simply ignored -- and it's quite possible that different circuit courts have different opinions on the matter. I've got no idea what the status is right now. Best policy on Wikipedia's part: assume they're copyrighted just like anything else. --Carnildo 04:29, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- As other's have pointed out, in many cases we don't even know for sure who the copyright belongs to and it could easily change. It may not belong to Al-Qaeda or even someone who would be classified as a terrorist by much of the world. Perhaps more importantly Jimbo Wales has made it clear we don't just respect for legal reasons but moral reasons. Try reading Wikipedia:Copyrights specifically Regardless, according to Jimbo Wales, Wikipedia contributors should respect the copyright law of these nations as best they can, the same as they do for other countries around the world.[2]. Also, a lot of people don't seem to understand the goals of wikipedia. We want are supposed to be creating a free encylopedia. If we go ignoring people's copyrights willy nilly, even if we can't be sued in the US, what about people in other countries? They may have major problems trying to publish or make wikipedia available because we've used a bunch of copyrighted stuff which simply isn't recognised in the US. By accurately tagging and recognising stuff which is copyrighted, even if it isn't in the US, we can help prevent this. BTW, please don't bring up strawman arguments like what happens if some country starts to recognise copyrights for 1000 year old works or something like that. Nil Einne 09:25, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Notability of politicians - how far down do we go?
Just came across Robert Parkyn, a City of Calgary, Alberta alderman from 1926 to 1944. Someone is putting in the entire historical list of Calgary aldermen. Is this is a good thing or a bad thing? --John Nagle 05:10, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- I do not see why it is inherently a bad thing to have knowledge about people being put into Wikipedia. Of course, if we only rely on web references for checking purposes people may be a little surprised about how much just isn't there. These people are likely to have a lot of written information about them.
- Also, in what sense are you using the word "notability". Ansell 05:24, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not paper. Notability is just there to make sure we can meet verifiability and NPOV without original research. An alderman likely has enough written about him to ensure that. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 06:25, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is also not a junkyard. It's not just there for verifiability/NPOV - we don't want articles that are written about not-notable topics, even if they're verifiable and NPOV. Blocks of sidewalk in New York City, or for that matter, Bismarck North Dakota are not notable enough for an article. --Improv 13:51, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- O RLY? If a block of sidewalk has multiple non-trivial media mentions, I'm guessing it's a pretty special chunk of sidewalk. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 14:36, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- John Nagle has not told you the whole story. Robert was a City of Calgary Alderman for 17 years on and off, he was also a member of the Legislative Assembly of Alberta for 4 years while still serving as an Alderman, he was chairman of the Calgary Public Library and helped found a Federal Canadian political party. If that is not noteable then what is. --Cloveious 16:12, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- i should note that in my statement above, I wasn't meaning to comment in particular on Robert Parkyn -- i was talking in the abstract. --Improv 17:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- In general I'm uncomfortable with the idea that we should document every occupant of every relatively minor public office. There is verifiable information about many of these people but I think we should establish WP:NOT [www.lexisnexis.com Lexis Nexis]. In specific, I'd probably say delete him: he has done a number of relatively unimportant things. The Land 19:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- An alderman isn't minor if you live in his city; he influenced the lives of thousands of people in significant ways. Why does it bother you if someone else writes an article about him? It's not like we're running low on disk space. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 10:27, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- John Nagle has not told you the whole story. Robert was a City of Calgary Alderman for 17 years on and off, he was also a member of the Legislative Assembly of Alberta for 4 years while still serving as an Alderman, he was chairman of the Calgary Public Library and helped found a Federal Canadian political party. If that is not noteable then what is. --Cloveious 16:12, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- O RLY? If a block of sidewalk has multiple non-trivial media mentions, I'm guessing it's a pretty special chunk of sidewalk. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 14:36, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is also not a junkyard. It's not just there for verifiability/NPOV - we don't want articles that are written about not-notable topics, even if they're verifiable and NPOV. Blocks of sidewalk in New York City, or for that matter, Bismarck North Dakota are not notable enough for an article. --Improv 13:51, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
- In the past, a reasonable solution to many stubs about relatively minor positions has been to merge them to e.g. List of Calgary aldermen. >Radiant< 11:07, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I wouldn't go so far as to support "the idea that we should document every occupant of every relatively minor public office", if "should" in that context means that it's a problem if some aldermen remain undocumented. (When I started editing Wikipedia, there were some U.S. Congressmembers lacking articles. Now, that was a problem that had to be addressed.) On the other hand, I don't see the problem with retaining such an article if someone is willing to research and write it. JamesMLane t c 15:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- It is a shame that others do not take your attitude about articles that people will bother to research and build up. Wikipedia should not bite any editors, not just newcomers. By trashing an articles subject as unimportant in ones personal view, one may not be putting the entire picture in. It is not sensible to be making up classifications on top of the original policies just to get ones personal viewpoints accepted about having neat little categories of things instead of thing that someone has actually considered to be their contribution to the sum of human knowledge. Ansell 03:01, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
First Person Accounts
Are first person accounts appropriate for Wikipedia? I was in a train wreck a number of years ago. When I found an entry for it I posted a first account of my experience which was pretty remarkable (I was shot out the train and landed on the tracks). Another person, a very experienced Wiki contributor, deleted it saying that first person accounts are inappropriate. Is this correct?
Taganwiki 21:31, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is a Tertiary source. All information must come from, and be Verifiable from, independent Reliable Sources. First-person accounts are not acceptable. Fan-1967 21:33, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
- Actually, Wikipedia, like most encyclopedias, is both a secondary and a tertiary source, since we provide summaries, comparisons, and superficial analysis of primary and secondary sources. Deco 23:11, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is a Tertiary source. All information must come from, and be Verifiable from, independent Reliable Sources. First-person accounts are not acceptable. Fan-1967 21:33, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
- First person accounts of that sort probably do not meet "encyclopedic" standards so it was probably right to remove it.
- The policy is less strict than Fan-1967 says above, however. Primary sources are acceptable material if using them is non-interpretive. There are raging flame wars all the time about primary vs secondary sourcing, so I won't explain that any further. SchmuckyTheCat 21:45, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
- However, just to be clear, an eyewitness or participant editing an article to add material that is otherwise unverifiable is not accepted practice. Fan-1967 21:47, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
(edit conflict)
- You need to post your account somewhere else, and then we can reference it here. Wikipedia doesn't have inherent reliability or credibility of academic peer review or eyewitness knowledge; instead we have the verifiability of having our sources open to anyone to check. If you post your primary souce elsewhere, it can be cited in the article to flesh out details and linked as further reading. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 21:50, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. This would come down to "own research". I've gotten to the point where I've even been deleting perfectly believeable stuff that I myself wrote before, but didn't supply any references for. I've also been telling other people that if they have some interesting experiences to share, just publish it somewhere else first -- your own hope page for all I care -- and then perhaps we'll quote and reference you (alas, most of them suffer from writer's block). In this case you could do it all on your own -- just don't try to plagiarize yourself, as that would set a bad example! :-)) --Jwinius 22:45, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
- If you want to supply original research, Wikinews allows original research. Tra (Talk) 23:43, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks all for the clarification - I am new to this. Actually most of my account was recorded in TV interviews and newspaper articles right after the accident. So I would need to reference those shorter peices rather than the longer and more complete summary that I just wrote. Incidentially some of those articles had errors in them so sometimes the secondary sources are not as reliable as primary.
Taganwiki 23:59, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
A word of caution. Publish it somewhere on the web you can well do, but I doubt very much that it would be considered a reliable source, and any other editor would be justified in removing it. It is preferable to use news articles and the like, as these are mostly considered to be reliable. In response to your last argument, we are after verifiabily, not truth. Zunaid 10:33, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
- You have FPS with games and FPA in encyclopedia authoring. How to :
- Just upload some media (picture, drawing, audio) and tell that you did it yourself. Try it and be happy (hint : fake a newspaper page and upload a pic : your text is primary and may stay. Do not tell that I told you.) -- DLL .. T 19:48, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
administrator behavior
I have a question - if an editor is an administrator on another language Wikipedia or sister project, but there is evidence that he/she is breaking WP policies and behaving in a disruptive and boorish fashion on the English Wikipedia, can action be taken against that editor on the project where he/she is an administrator, based on this evidence? Rama's arrow 20:32, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
- Ultimately, that is a question for the other project, based on that projects standards. But I'd doubt it. Last I knew, usernames are project specific. So there isn't even a solid basis for saying they are the same person unless they have said so on their userpage on both projects. GRBerry 21:00, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks - yes it does look a bit murky. Even enabling email only goes so far. My worry comes from the fact that while English WP composes of many nationalities, other language WPs are far narrower and may suffer from deeper systemic bias. Admins there may not be mentally educated to not spread such bias or POV. Rama's arrow 21:11, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
- Please remember each community is self-governing. What is against a policy at en.WP may not be so in another language of WP. It is hard to remember the subtle changes policy when switching communities. A kind reminder as to what the specific policy at en.WP may be a better response than starting a campaign to desysop them in another community.--Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 17:48, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Edit limit
I am sick and tired of seeing fanatical POV-pushers taking over wikipedia articles. A detailed explanation of this is at User:Nikodemos/Asymmetric controversy and User:Infinity0/Wiki disclaimer. What I suggest is simple.
- Any user may only make x edits to an article* per 24 hours.
*in the article/template namespace and any others prone to dispute, but not talk pages
My first proposal for x would be 10. See, this does not harm normal people in any way, since 10 edits is quite a lot, and there is always a preview button. But, this would really slow down disputes, where two or more people keep editing against each other. -- infinity0 23:02, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
And I don't mean "If they make x+1 edits they get blocked", I mean "it is technically impossible to make more than x edits to the same article in one day." -- infinity0 23:07, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
- I strongly disagree. What if you've made 10 edits, and then the page is vandalized, then you can't revert it! —Mets501 (talk) 23:12, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
- Per Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Ownership of articles.... this is a terrible idea. -- Steel 23:13, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
- Seems like a bad idea. What about fast-moving articles like Cory Lidle that had multiple edits per minute. Also, what about WP:AIV, etc. It also would severly limit vandalism reversions. Naconkantari 23:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, this idea does have its flaws, and thanks for pointing them out. However, the aim is to improve the idea and remove these flaws. Fanatical POV-pushers is certainly a problem on wikipedia. You may not have come across any, but for the people who have, it is hell. A few further thoughts:
- For reverting vandalism, edits made directly after an IP edit don't make the counter go up. If someone happens to edit the article just before you revert (and this happens enough times in one day to make your counter run out), well, get someone else to do it.
- For "Current Event" articles, an admin could have the option to mark the article as "open" so that these counters don't apply.
- -- infinity0 23:20, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
- This edit limit thing is not going to happen in a million years. -- Steel 23:25, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yeah, yeah. Don't knock it 'til you've tried it. ;) I assure you, fanatical POV-pushers are a far worse problem than vandals. Vandalism is obvious. Fanatical-POV pushing isn't. -- infinity0 23:31, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
- This edit limit thing is not going to happen in a million years. -- Steel 23:25, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
- -- infinity0 23:20, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
- We just had this discussion here. Look a bit further up this page for the section on POV Pushers. --Improv 00:04, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- What happens when someone just starts editing anon then? after the 10 edits. Ban them for sockpupptery? even if their edits are sensible? What about anon users? You can limit registered users to x edits per account, but an anon user who's ip keeps changing (as in they're not doing it, their internet connection is just that way) will be able to edit the article 20, 30...100 times? How can we enforce this rule? What if it's a relatively unknown article, but for some reason...on one day, a bunch of people start vandalising it. Every revert is one edit. And if the article is a relatively unknown/small article, not many regulars will have it on their watchlist. So when the 11th vandal attack happens, would we need a specific place for people to post revert-requests because they've already done their 10 edits per day? What about ip addresses that are shared (i.e. by a school)? So does that mean the whole school can only edit an article 10 times a day? Now you can say people at the school can just create their own accounts, so their 10 edits a day does not overlap with the school IP's 10 edits per day. But then how do you know when an account is a genuine new account, and when it's just someone needing more edits per day? Regardless of whether this proposal is good in philosophy, it's impossible in practice. Which makes it almost useless. --`/aksha 00:26, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually Wikipedia adopted a new guideline last month to deal with disruption. Check out WP:DE. Regards, Durova 19:39, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- To expand a bit on the current articles issue. Even if we allow admins to mark an article as open (which is going to add unnecessary work and delay articles) what about new articles which aren't current events? Some users write the whole article somewhere e.g. in a subpage on their usepager (or in a text editor) but others prefer to slowly work on an article on wikipedia. With this proposal we will basically force users to use their userpage. Also, even non-new articles, a editor might find a stub or some other article in bad need of work. Again while some will use the subpage, many will edit the article directly. While editors should use the preview (and a subpage might be better), many forget and in many cases an editor may keep finding their is stuff they need to correct or improve. I'm sure you can come up with numerous proposals to try and work around this like more admin tagging, excluding new articles, excluding stubs, even making special editors who are excluded from the limit but all this is just creates more work and in the end some editors are going to be discouraged by all the complexity. The key problem with the proposal is that just because an editor is majorly changing an article doesn't mean their a POV-pusher. In many cases major edits should get consensus but in other cases an editor can majorly change an article well and it's not necessary to ask first (e.g. because it's a stub or is so bad anything is better then what's there). Therefore any attempt to limit edits to try and stop POV pushers is also going to stop legitimate editors who are drastically improving an article and removing POV! Nil Einne 09:08, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Quorum
- In order to claim concensus, a minimum quorum of 6 editors in the discussion is required.
(Originally I suggested 5. I would be interested in discussing rationales for quorum numbers.)
I think the minimum of 6 should be required to prevent WP:BITE, and just any sort of bullying. ("Me and my two friends say what goes around here, in this here article.") - jc37 00:06, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- While we don't need a strict cutoff point, a consensus of a small group of people is not representative of the consensus of a larger group of people. It is relatively easy to make a decision with <10 people, it gets progressively harder if more are involved, yet also more important. >Radiant< 14:40, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- I honestly am not sure what you are trying to say, could you please elucidate? - jc37 20:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- I mean that if five people agree on something and call it consensus, it's possible for ten other people to join the discussion and have a wholly different opinion, thus swaying consensus in the other direction. Of course, consensus among a large group of people is more important than consensus among a small group. Ideally, we want consensus of the whole wiki, but since that's a practical impossibility we'll settle for a well-advertised discussion amongst whoever wants to join it. >Radiant< 09:23, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
- Nah, per my previous objections. Basically, issues are fluid in size and outcome and there are already policies in place to prevent bullying. Basically, you get two mates who ride in and say, yeah, well how about dispute resolution then. And it isn't even going to solve the problem. Some issue don't get 6 participants. Period. That's why we have third opinions. People who feel they have been bullied should go the usual channels, WP:RFC, WP:DR and other venues. Raise a stink, build a better consensus. We don't do binding decisions so we don't need to be bound on how many people make any non-binding decision. Steve block Talk 15:14, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- While I would honestly normally agree with you, that's not been my experience. The problem (as even stated as the last line on the consensus page itself), is that the word "consensus" is thrown around, and often incorrectly. I think that enacting a minimum quorum should deal directly with this issue. Imagine you and a friend made a decision 2 months ago. And 3 newbies show up with an idea, and you tell them that it was already determined by consensus that we do things this way... (And that goes on a lot.) Is that accurate? At least with the minimum quorum, I would feel more comfortable stating that a consensus was determined. Can 2 or 3 people be bold? Of course. And does a third party opinion help with that? Of course. A third party opinion isn't to determine consensus, it's for dispute resolution. I do find it interesting how in the last discussion, and in this one that "dispute resolution", "being bold", "supermajority", and "consensus", are all being melded and merged together as if they are the same thing, when each seems to serve a different purpose. Part of what I'm trying to suggest here is that we need to clarify all of this. Yes, We could "be bold" and make the changes to the various guidelines and pages, but I think discussing it here (and possibly following it up with an RfC, once things have coelesced somewhat) is the better way to go, since I would prefer consensus, over being bold in this case. This is all about choice: Do we look for consensus? Do we act and be bold? Do we ignore all rules? (and for that matter: Do we do nothing?) I think that we have many project pages discussing around these topics, but I think we lost the clarity, hence the confusion. - jc37 20:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- What you do is you judge the situation, and then you discuss, and you keep on discussing until a consensus builds. The idea in all of this is that everyone in the discussion is interested in reaching an agreeable solution. That's the basic premise of all our policies. You can be bold. You can ignore all rules. But you have to discuss those instances where people are bold or ignore all rules in reverse. Consensus is just a fancy way of saying we reached an agreement. Say in your example 3 people reach an agreement and one person shows up an disagrees. Now obviously, the three people are first off going to say, look, we just discussed all this, here's a link, have a read through see what you think. That's not bullying. The one person can read it all through, see if he feels it's something he can sign up to or discuss his own view. But this one person has only a few options. To change the other three's minds and get a new consensus, to argue but fail to change their minds and accept it as a loss, to reach a new compromise or to expand the discussion with outside views. That's the nub of it, and I don't think it matters how many people you get in a decision, a way of doing things is a way of doing things and I don't think you're going to be able to tell three people that have all agreed the same thing that they haven't reached a consensus. I don't think the word can be put back in the bottle like that anymore. All our policies do eventually amount to the same thing, at least from my point of view: they're all part of a chain which says that this is a collaborative effort and that we have to work together. Whether we work together in groups of one, two or many, it doesn't matter. We have to work together. Steve block Talk 00:05, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
---
- I would have to disagree that any minimum number is necessary to achieve "concensus". I think logically thinking individuals who understand the basic 5 pillars and general policies of Wikipedia can come together and bury their POV axes to come to a concensus with most articles. I have done this numerous times with just one or two other editors on so many occasions that my head spins to think of when this didn't happen.
- Where I came under the worst sorts of problems are the relative newcomers who have a general understanding of project policies to become policy lawyers invoking all kinds of rules and exceptions, and try to put you down (especially newcommers.... like said above see WP:BITE) I my case I either lay off for awhile and let the idiot try to damage the article until he/she burns out, going back to fix it, or I pull up my "credentials" as a long-time Wikimedia user and tell them to go take a hike. But that is usually a last resort.
- The problem I do see, and think is reasonable, is to assume too quickly that you have come to a concensus when in fact you havn't given enough time to the "community" of people interested in the content to achieve concensus. Generally speaking, one week is hardly enough time to reach a major conclusion, even though this is very common here on Wikipedia to consider the one week to be sufficient time to reach a conclusion. For very minor things of no consequence, and that can be easily reversed later, that isn't so much of a big deal.
- In other words, if you want to make sure you have concensus on something, just be a little more patient. If after awhile only you and one other editor come to some agreement to do something and nobody else has even added their $0.02, go for it. That is part of being bold. How long "awhile" is, of course, up to personal interpretation. --Robert Horning 00:10, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Supermajority
- For situations which require a supermajority, a two-thirds (67%) majority is necessary for success in determining concensus.
I think the minimum should deal with several issues of cases which currently require the "higher" percents of 75-80. - jc37 00:06, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- I don't particularly like either of those suggestions. Consensus by defintion means everyone agree. Even though 100% is impossible, it's still what people should look towards. That's the spirit of it - consensus means you try to get a solution that everyone agrees on. Setting a numerical percentage, whether that be 60% or 80% is just sending out the wrong message. It's as if saying "if we achieve 80%, then that's good enough, that's a consensus, we can stop trying and just go ahead". It makes 80% the 'goal', and not 100%. Sure, 100% is not practical in most cases, so people set rough guilelines to help decide when consensus has been reached. But the rough guildlines are just rough guildlines, making an actual hard policy of "consensus = x-percent" is just wrong. Same with the quorum bit. A three people agreement can be a consensus if only three people are involved. 10 people can still gang up on a few new people. If anything, this will only allow people to manipulated and game what a consensus is. Do we currently have a problem of being unable to agree on when a consensus has occured? Because if not, i don't see why we need to fix a non-existant problem. --`/aksha 00:17, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- Setting arbitrary, hard numbers is a bad idea. Consensus is about discussion, and we should leave room for judgment calls to counter any attempts to game the system. Fagstein 07:54, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- While I don't necessarily disagree with you, that's not how things entirely work. Note what I say above: "For situations which require a supermajority...", not "In all situations which require consensus". Check out RfA, for example. If someone has 83 supports, and 37 opposes, do you think that that person should be considered to have concensus to be an admin? If you say that you would like to see what was said, what if there were 20 support comments, and 3 oppose, and the rest just said support or oppose, with the occasional "per so-n-so". Now what do you think? Under our current system, I don't believe that that person would become an admin. We have similar situations on XfD. Should only 3 comments (or less) on an XfD (especially since they are under a time constraint) - even if unanimous, be enough to determine deletion? What I am suggesting is placing these in order to replace any other arbitrary supermajority requirements which may be higher. - jc37 08:11, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- ...exactly what is XfA? The problem with setting wikipedia-wide guildlines on what a consensus is that differnet types of disagreements/problems need to be treated differently. I've noticed how requests for adminship seem to be very much of a calculate % support. This is different to say, articles for deletion, where sometimes an article can be deleted even if it doesn't have so much support...because there are very good reasons to get rid of it. Actual disagreements about article content is even more complex. There are usually many possible solutions. If we say 80% is consensus, then it means we consider 80% good enough. Which means when people get 80% support for one solution, they may stop looking for alternatives. Where as in truth, a better alternative may exist that pleases even more people. It's not black and white, not like RfA...where it's basically either oppose or support. Setting a hard number on how much support constitutes consensus is fine for something like that, where there are two obvious options. But for actual disagreements on articles - consensus should be as close to 100% as practically possible. I think if RfA currently has problems, then it needs to be addressed specifically - as in some discussion is needed specifically about consensus in RfAs. I don't see trying to set general consensus guildlines for everything as practical at all. --`/aksha 09:28, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- Maybe he meant "XFD". I wish people would stop citing "requests for adminship" as an example for consensual discussions, as it's pretty much the odd-man-out in that it is about editors rather than content. At any rate, the problem with putting any numerical line to consensus is that it discourages compromise and addressing concerns, and encourages simply rounding up more people that agree with you. A good consensus is usually a compromise. A supermajority usually isn't. >Radiant< 14:39, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, I meant XfD (I changed it in the text above). Again, please note that I said "situations which require a supermajority". I didn't say "situations which require a consensus". Or are you saying that we shouldn't have any (except perhaps RfA) situation which requires a supermajority? - jc37 20:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- Please define explicitly which situations you think require a supermajority. >Radiant< 09:26, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
- ...exactly what is XfA? The problem with setting wikipedia-wide guildlines on what a consensus is that differnet types of disagreements/problems need to be treated differently. I've noticed how requests for adminship seem to be very much of a calculate % support. This is different to say, articles for deletion, where sometimes an article can be deleted even if it doesn't have so much support...because there are very good reasons to get rid of it. Actual disagreements about article content is even more complex. There are usually many possible solutions. If we say 80% is consensus, then it means we consider 80% good enough. Which means when people get 80% support for one solution, they may stop looking for alternatives. Where as in truth, a better alternative may exist that pleases even more people. It's not black and white, not like RfA...where it's basically either oppose or support. Setting a hard number on how much support constitutes consensus is fine for something like that, where there are two obvious options. But for actual disagreements on articles - consensus should be as close to 100% as practically possible. I think if RfA currently has problems, then it needs to be addressed specifically - as in some discussion is needed specifically about consensus in RfAs. I don't see trying to set general consensus guildlines for everything as practical at all. --`/aksha 09:28, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- Again, I'm going to oppose. I think basing it on RFA is a bad idea, not least because the idea that a supermajority as defined by numbers is the pass mark appears to have been disregarded by those who make the call. Steve block Talk 16:07, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- Can you give an example of them disregarding the numbers? (AFAIK, the carnildo resysop was because they felt it shouldn't have been in RfA in the first place, rather than a statement about consensus.) - jc37 20:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- I have to agree with this, I have seen one too many articles where 1 or two people hold up the majority of editors and keep stating its not a concensus because 2 of 10 don't agree. A good example is the Iraq War article where an outstanding 24-3 in favor of keeping "war on Terror" in the infobox still got reverted because "concensus means everyone" and "it cant be included if there is no concensus", While I applaud Wikipedia for its play nice rules, it has to understand that with a bigger community not everyone is gonig to agree, no matter what the topic is. --NuclearZer0 16:37, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- Those people should understand that consensus does not mean unanimity. The reality is that on certain controversial subjects, people will keep filibustering until the last straw. >Radiant< 09:26, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
- What I have noticed is the word 'consensus' is used by some 'closers' of discussions when there was no consensus whatsoever. The closer counts up the votes, votes on the side he/she likes and says 'consensus' even if the total votes were only 1 more for his/her side! Trying to appeal such nonsense is not worth the trouble when you are up against WP lawyering experts who know every WP rule and how to get around or ignore every rule . Hmains 21:21, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- From my experience
- Some issues are minor enough (like layout, sectioning) that a simple majority will do and people tend to understand that.
- On complex issues, most editors will thrive for compromise to achieve consensus and will only start arguing that they have a majority/supermajority/consensus when no compromise is able to satisfy everyone.
In almost every case these simple rules are working fairly well. Yes, it does lead to odd compromises or stalls progress but I think that trying to codify the whole thing will make things worse. Pascal.Tesson 21:51, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
- What Pascal said. Also, if you disagree with a closure, you can bring it up on e.g. WP:DRV; people aren't supposed to close a discussion that they were involved in, unless the result is blatantly obvious. >Radiant< 22:28, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Biased Intermediate Website as a Reference
There is currently a debate within the Quebec bashing Discussion page dealing with the propriety of using Vigile.net as an intermediate source. [3] Of the 56 unique references currently cited, 21 direct the user to the Vigile.net website. The debate began with my objection. In short, my argument is as follows: 1) Vigile.net appears to be posting newspaper and magazine articles without permission, as such the accuracy of the transcriptions is called into question; 2) Vigile.net is a website with a clear political agenda, meaning the user is being directed not to the source, but to a biased intermediate website. It is my opinion that this runs counter to WP:RS guidelines; in particular that covered by the "Partisan, religious and extremist websites" section. I'd be interested in the views of others on this issue. Victoriagirl 02:19, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
List Namespace
I have made a proposal for introducing a seperate namespace for lists. Please suggest your views. Your response to the proposal is invited on proposal page. Shyam (T/C) 19:03, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Prod's
What's the policy for signing your prod's? Are you suppose to, or should you just let the history do the talking for you? -Royalguard11(Talk·Desk) 20:43, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
- Prod should focus on the article's content, not on the editor who wrote it or tagged it. Thus, you are encouraged not to sign your prods. >Radiant< 08:59, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Using quotes from a website that is the Wikipidia subject in order to illuminate the subject
If there is an Wikipedia entry about an entry and there are few outside references in order to explain it, Can one use various in context sections from the site and juxtapose them with contradictory quotes written by the same author in order to give readers a better understanding of this entry.
I ask because a casual visitor to the site may not notice anything but more indepth research into the many articles gives a clearer picture of the biases inherrant in the site.
I want to do this as objectively as possible and this seems to be a way.
Can one also take assertations from the site that are presented as facts and juxtapose them with facts from a objective reliable source. Of course this would be all done with links to the subject matter and references quoted.
I would like to write this but want to do it objectively. As an example one can juxtapose recorded words and actions by a politician that are contradictory to give an accurate portrayal of who they really are. as long as what you write is true.--Robbow123 00:19, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- Quotes in general go on WikiQuote, not here. Other than that, I'm afraid I didn't quite follow what you're trying to say here, could you please give a concrete example or two? >Radiant< 09:01, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- I think I understand what the question is and I was and am involved in such a case regarding a heavily controversial article i.e. Prem Rawat who made contradictory statements regarding his divinity. The detractors of Prem Rawat tried to insert many quotes emphasizing claims of divinity, while proponents tried to insert many quotes emphasizing claims that he was mere human. The subject has spoken a lot and hence the predictable result was that the article became very unwieldy. The solution was to move all the quotes to wikiquote and resort to scholarly summaries, but when the scholarly summaries are not available in a dispute between factions then, I think, there will be a huge problem. SeeTalk:Prem_Rawat#Context and Talk:Prem_Rawat/Archive_19#Questions_for_P.Jacobi_and_should_we_refrain_from_editing.3F
- In an article about an entity that has a website, presenting the entity's own view of itself is certainly appropriate. Quoting from the website is a good way to accomplish that, because it uses the entity's own words but the quotation makes clear that this is what the entity itself says rather than what Wikipedia is asserting as fact. The availability of WikiQuote shouldn't mean that quotations from or about the article subject are barred from the text. JamesMLane t c 11:19, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, I understand, but please re-read what I wrote, What to do when a subject has made contradictory claims? Should we fill an article with these contradictory quotes to present a balanced view? If not, how should this be done? Andries 11:33, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- In an article about an entity that has a website, presenting the entity's own view of itself is certainly appropriate. Quoting from the website is a good way to accomplish that, because it uses the entity's own words but the quotation makes clear that this is what the entity itself says rather than what Wikipedia is asserting as fact. The availability of WikiQuote shouldn't mean that quotations from or about the article subject are barred from the text. JamesMLane t c 11:19, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- Put the quotes in Wikiquote and link to that page. User:Zoe|(talk) 21:02, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- If it's a controversial issue then it's probably worth a section on the article with a couple of brief representative examples and citations or links to more comprehensive material. If possible, present some context to show whether this person's statements changed over time or varied according to circumstances (such as which audience was likely to encounter the material) - rely as heavily as possible on previously published material for this sort of analysis because it can bleed into original research. Also note the extent to which such contradictions are explainable as verifiable misquotes, typographical errors, or editing mistakes. Durova 01:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Use of foreign language on talk pages
I would like to know whether it is appropriate for several wikipedians of the same nationality, involved in a content dispute with wikipedians of another nationality, to use their native tongue for communication on their talk pages. When I requested them to provide a translation, my request was dismissed as "insulting". Is there any policy on this? I recall that in the past, when most people on Romanian and Polish noticeboards spoke to each other in their native languages and ignored requests to translate their communications into English, their conduct was reprimanded as stimulating evolution of national cliques. --Ghirla -трёп- 13:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines says basically that, that it's a "good practice" to prefer English on talk pages, and to provide a translation if use of other languages is unavoidable. Though private non-logged conversations can and do happen, so I don't know how that squares with, say, use of IRC for Wikipedia:Spotlight. --Interiot 14:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for your explanation. --Ghirla -трёп- 14:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I also want to know what meausures I can undertake against somebody who explicitely insulted me of being a conspirator. Let's say that a X user who has no idea about the FA criteria, gets involved in a FA review, gets exposed by me because of his ignorance and then desperately tries to get revenge on me. As a result, he explitely accuses me of being a "conspirator", without any evidence. I really want to know if I can file an official complaint against him for this humiliating and unbacked slanders. I also want to know what punishment this user may face.--Yannismarou 14:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yannismarou, your accusations are both irrelevant and insulting. I'm not involved in any conflict with you. Please cool off. I have no idea what you are talking about and this is not the place to vent your anger. As best I know, Wikipedia is not supposed to be a battleground and use of native languages in the English version of the project is discouraged. I just want to make it clear whether we have a certain guideline and whether adopting such a guideline would be reasonable. Happy edits, Ghirla -трёп- 14:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Your insult against me was totally inacceptable. We can clarify anything you want, but first I'll learn in detail how can take Wiki-legal actions against you. I don't allow to anybody to question my ethos. And those who do it face the consequences of their actions. These things are not under negotiation!--Yannismarou 14:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Wiki-legal action? Is that a threat? Martin 14:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
As for the original comment, I could not initially find a policy or guide on the use of foreign languages on talk pages, certainly if it was used a lot it could be considered anti-social and is likely to reflect badly on the users involved, if users were using non-english to deliberately confuse another editor then this would more serious. Martin 14:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- I did not say "legal". I said "Wiki-legal", meaning what procedures within Wikipedia I can follow. Were did you see the threats?--Yannismarou 14:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- The only reason why I decided to seek advice on the policy (without mentioning names involved in the dispute, mind) was because you asked me to: "I want you to provide me eith specific rules and guidelines that oblige me to do what you ask me." I hope that you will realize your umpteenth threat and finally "report me to more than one administrators", providing a diff where I called you a "conspirator". Thanks, Ghirla -трёп- 14:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yannismarou, we should all write in English. Consequently, you should either communicate directly in English or provide a translation of what you say (for instance, if quoting an author or something that you cannot translate well (a pun, a proverb and so on). Ignoring this rule is a basic incivility, since anyone should be able to read you and to reply you. As for attacks, either you have evidence, which you can bring to administrators, or you don't, but please don't make general statements like the one you did above. Thanks, Grafikm (AutoGRAF) 14:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- My accusations are specific. They are agaisnt Ghirla who called me a "conspirator". Ghirla can have the translations, if he wants them, but he'll be definitely reported by me for his unproven insults.--Yannismarou 14:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- His comments don't look insulting to me at all, your comments however are aggressive and confrontational, please calm down. Martin 14:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Clarify please: _IF_ you provide him with translations, _THEN_ you will report him for something? What does your providing the translations have to do with whether or not you report him? Is that a threat against him? I don't quite follow. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 14:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- I have rephrased.--Yannismarou 14:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Ghirla's comments are aggressive elsewhere. Yannismarou is an excellent new editor, who has managed in very little time create Wikiproject:History of Greece and three (four?) Featured articles. Accusations for conspiracy, however, are not an excuse for strong language. Indeed, it is considered good 'wikiquette' to write in English. Ghirla, it is considered good 'wikiquette' not to accuse anyone (of conspiracy or whatever) unless there are solid proofs (diffs) to support it. On the other hand, WP cannot and has not forced English in the talk-pages. Furthermore, if someone indeed wants to 'conspire', they can do it via the perfectly the untraceable e-mail feature (in any language they feel like). Please try to solve this between yourselves, and keep WP:AGF as well as WP:AAGF in mind. My talk is welcoming for your further comments (this is not the place). •NikoSilver• 14:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Come on, NicoSilver, could you provide a diff where my comments are "aggressive" or where I called your friend a conspirator? I just noted that interactions in native languages just below the comment of a person, with whom you are in a serious edit conflict, may be interpreted as conspirational activities against him. Once you and Yannismarou adopt English for your conversations, there will be no room for suspicion on the part of your opponents (of which I'm not one, because I totally ignore details of your dispute). As a general observation, I do not like the climate in the Balkanese section of Wikipedia and I urge wikipedians from that part of the world to keep the level of their discourse above that of a sandbox. --Ghirla -трёп- 14:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Yet another case where too short nerves lead to a havoc. Frankly, I blame Yannis for lightning the spark, and I fail to see the purpose of this ridiculous wikilawyering on his side. Ghirla's initial request for translation perhaps wasn't overly filled with AGF, but it was stated politely and quite in line with WP:CIVIL. Yannis's outburst of this magnitude was IMO not justified. As a remedy, I suggest that two of you stay away from each other for a while, and that Niko provides the translations. Duja 15:03, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- "I assumed it was not your intention to use your talk page for hosting what looks like conspirational activities, but your defiant response seems to prove that I was wrong." When I'm accused of hosting "conspirational activities" without any proof, I'm not insulted? Ghirla does not have the right to assume facts. He has to prove them. Make as many translations as you wish. You' ll see no conspiracy. And I still think I deserve an apology from Ghirla for this unproven slander ("host of conspirational activities"} against me!--Yannismarou 15:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- "If you see that your enemies are multiple and you are alone, it's not worth it. You can't fight a tsunami, can you? I'm sure there are many Romanian editors who would help, if the conflict was that fundamental (but it was not)." Enemies Ghirla?! Enemies!!! Tsunami!!! Do we have enemies in Wikipedia?I I only strive for historical truth nothing else. I'm really sorry for your comments! Really sorry!! See my last edit in Talk:Phanariotes to see if am an enemy of Dahn or not. You don't have a clue about the historical backgrounds of these debates in Talk:Phanariotes and, nevertheless, you make such comments. I always tried to be NPOV and I alway tried to serve truth, although I had sometimes to disagree with other Greek Wikipedians. I don't deserve this attitude and I donot deserve these insulting comments and these implicit ironies. I'm happy you assume good faith! (And this is irony, yes!)--Yannismarou 17:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- I really appreciate Ghirla's last comments in my talk page [4] and I also apologize for the tone of my answers to him.--Yannismarou 18:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Blanking of article talk pages
Someone just added a "history" of the city of Scappoose, Oregon on its talk page. I was about to commend the editor for his or her addition and point out that we would need better citation, etc., before the material was added to the main article. Then I read the whole thing and noticed this fine piece of creative writing moved from history to POV to patent nonsense. I am tempted to blank it, but I'd like some opinions first. Thanks! Katr67 16:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Blanking someones comments on talk generally only leads to escalation of conflict. Merely post a response saying that the above is nonsense, etc. Why deliberately provoke someone ? Wjhonson 16:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- I just read it, and while some parts in the middle have a definate anti-environmental point of view, and some parts near the end desend into the relms of questionable notability, I don't think any of it is patent nonsense. I would not blank it. I would, if I were you, leave a comment about the first part being good and needing better citation, and then point out any specific concerns you have about the rest. Let them know that if good citation is provided and all the concerns are addressed this bit of history will be in the article. Try to work with them. ~ ONUnicorn (Talk / Contribs) 16:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
If it's a temporary content fork just to work on it a bit, it might be more productive for everyone if it was worked on in userspace, or at least not on the talk page (though a link to it could be left on the talk page so people are aware of it). If it's a permanent content fork (eg. they don't intend to follow our core policies and don't intend to ever integrate it back in), then that's discouraged, and speedy archiving might be appropriate. --Interiot 16:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Believe me, the bit about albino nutria saving the town of Scappose is nonsense. :) BTW, when searching on "albino nutria" I got a google hit on this talk page, so apparently this has come up before... Katr67 16:27, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Text of old Village Pump discussion is here. Katr67 16:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- I thought that was the part you were refering to as nonsense ;). I did a quick search for nutria and came up with this redirect Nutria, so it apparently is a real animal which, while native to South America, has been introduced into Oregon and is considered a pest there, so there is at least a tid-bit of truth to that part of it. As for it saving the town from flooding... some people get some strange ideas into their heads. The person doing the writing may actually believe this. Insisting on a proper source should keep it out of the article as I doubt one can be found. ~ ONUnicorn (Talk / Contribs) 16:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Text of old Village Pump discussion is here. Katr67 16:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, nutria are indeed real. Albino nutria are indeed real, but sentient albino nutria that worked to save a small town in Oregon...that's a bit of a stretch. :D I don't think the editor in question acutally believes this. I think this is in the fine tradition of an Oregon tall tale and s/he is pulling our legs. Katr67 16:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
For those playing along at home, the material on the talk page was added by an anon. (Which isn't to say anons can't make valid contributions, just something to consider.) I chose to archive the silly thing. Thanks for the input and for being so trusting. :) Someone else put {{Talkheader}} on the page so that should take care of that. Katr67 20:39, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Endemic Wiki-foolishness
It seems to me that in most articles that give information on how to pronounce a particular word, a bizarre, esoteric code is given. What kind of people use such a code, dare I ask? And how high are their ivory towers? And more to the point, what proportion of the English-speaking population would understand such a code? One in a million might be generous.
Example, from Zeitgeist:
Zeitgeist ((audio) (help·info)) is originally a German expression that means "the spirit (Geist) of the time (Zeit)". It denotes the intellectual and cultural climate of an era. The German pronunciation of the word is [ˈtsa͡ɪtga͡ɪst]
ˈtsa͡ɪtga͡ɪst??? Oh, now I understand!
Why not just use a simplier code? Perhaps 'zIt-gIst" -- or just say that it rhymes with, oh, I don't know, "mice fight".
Cheers. Chris 20:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- It's the International Phonetic Alphabet. The problem with ad-hoc phonetic systems or "rhymes with" is that ad-hoc systems are just as cryptic as IPA but without the advantage of standardization, while "rhymes with" only works for one specific accent. --Carnildo 20:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Besides, at least in my accent, "zeit" and "mice" use different vowel sounds. --Carnildo 20:38, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Well, if there's no reliable system of conveying proper pronounciation, I feel that it is a hideous joke, a slap in the face, to choose a standard code that has a high degree of complexity (bars, curves, dots, bolding, fonts etc. that virtually no one understands). Better to provide no pronunciation, than one that's so esoteric that you get English-speakers like me confused and angry about it. Chris 20:41, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- And then you get people like me who don't have special characters enabled and just see a bunch of squares. ~ ONUnicorn (Talk / Contribs) 20:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Well actually, if you really want to know the pronunciation you can look up the details of the phonetic alphabet. You're making it sound like a horribly complex thing but it's actually pretty easy to pick up and has the advantage of universality. Moreover, a number of articles also give a more accessible "rhymes with" sort of guide or better yet a sound file. As for not enabling special characters, well... why exactly do you not enable them? :-) Pascal.Tesson 20:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Well for me, it's a point of pride not to learn such things. Anyway, I give up. I certainly won't write any articles with IPA pronunciation, and I guess that's all I can say. Chris 21:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- While I certainly don't believe that all people are obligated in any way to learn every technicality of every specialized field (that's impossible within a human lifetime), I also find it rather perverse that anybody would actually be proud of being, and remaining, ignorant of a particuar point. Ignore the stuff that you don't know and aren't interested enough to learn, fine... but why take pride in it? *Dan T.* 22:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- I also find it perverse, but accept that a pride in not learning is a major strand in anglophone, er, culture. I've just finished reading a book about polar expeditions, in which many of the Brits and not a few of the Youessians come off like fools compared with, say, the Norwegians: they didn't want to learn (from lesser races [!], etc.) even lessons that would have increased their own chances of survival. ¶ But back to the initial outburst: what proportion of the English-speaking population would understand such a code [sc IPA]? One in a million might be generous. That's highly unlikely for at least three reasons. First, more than one in a million anglophones study linguistics to at least some degree (even as just one course in a liberal-arts year), and that most introductory linguistics books handle IPA. Secondly, more than one in a million anglophones are likely to use a dictionary that employs IPA, and to pay some attention to this. Thirdly, this page of WP (lacking a title or even a section heading that indicates that there's anything about linguistics or pronunication) is unlikely to attract a crowd particularly linguistics/pronunciation, yet several people have demonstrated that they're familiar with IPA. ¶ Yes, IPA is a good thing. Get over it.-- Hoary 05:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- While I certainly don't believe that all people are obligated in any way to learn every technicality of every specialized field (that's impossible within a human lifetime), I also find it rather perverse that anybody would actually be proud of being, and remaining, ignorant of a particuar point. Ignore the stuff that you don't know and aren't interested enough to learn, fine... but why take pride in it? *Dan T.* 22:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Well for me, it's a point of pride not to learn such things. Anyway, I give up. I certainly won't write any articles with IPA pronunciation, and I guess that's all I can say. Chris 21:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Well, if there's no reliable system of conveying proper pronounciation, I feel that it is a hideous joke, a slap in the face, to choose a standard code that has a high degree of complexity (bars, curves, dots, bolding, fonts etc. that virtually no one understands). Better to provide no pronunciation, than one that's so esoteric that you get English-speakers like me confused and angry about it. Chris 20:41, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- If you take such pride in not learning it, why are you asking for a change? -Freekee 01:15, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I support using IPA to illustrate pronunciation because ultimately, there are no better options. However, I think we should go for phonemic rather than phonetic transcription. This makes the learning curve much easier for those unfamiliar with IPA, illustrating the pronunciation while allowing for dialectical differences. There's no need to go into absolutely precise detail. For example, a transcription doesn't need to show that initial "t" is generally aspirated in English, or that vowels preceding nasal consonants (like m or n) take on a nasal quality. szyslak (t, c, e) 21:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- This comes up fairly often. I recommend linking the IPA transcriptions to accurate sound files so that (at least online) people can hear what it sounds like, which is better than any system of transcription. Deco 22:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm terribly sorry if this comes accross as incivil in any way, but the following discourse just made me pull a spit-take (with a partly chewed bagel, nontheless):
- Chris: "Better to provide no pronunciation, than one that's so esoteric that you get English-speakers like me confused and angry about it."
- Pascal: "you can look up the details of the phonetic alphabet."
- Chris: "it's a point of pride not to learn such things."
Did it ever strike you being just ever so slightly absurd to willfully remain ignorant on a matter when you're attempting to co-author an encyclopedia? We should all be willing to learn new things here. --tjstrf 22:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- It's also worth noting that this discussion comes up very frequently. It's easy for people unfamiliar with the issues involved to think that there are better ways to do this for everyone, and it's easy for more established users to find this question coming up frequently irritating. It's important to note that while IPA remains the best thing we have so far, we should try to be careful in how we treat each other on this (frustrating to everyone) topic. --Improv 03:04, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- I think I've seen it come up 2 or 3 times myself. If it's really that bad, we could put it as a perennial proposal, but I don't think anyone actually reads those before posting their complaint. Makes the whole idea of having a list of perennial proposals rather useless... --tjstrf 05:29, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- As long as the schwa is included, I say, go ahead and use any alphabet you want. --Badger151 04:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- If we're throwing around ideas, why not just add schwa as a letter and deprecate X to symbol status? --tjstrf 05:29, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- THe schwa represents the "generic grunt" vowel used by about 75% of all English words. "X" is a consonant. --Carnildo 06:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- I know that. The idea I intended to express was the following: Since the schwa sound is so widely used, why not make it into a proper letter? Similarly, the letter X is an alphabetic redundancy and could be eliminated to maintain the alphabet count at 26. Basically I was giving an example of a random idea for changing the writing system, with the intended connotation that Wikipedia really has no place to be determining some of these things. I really need to be more clear sometimes. --tjstrf 06:26, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- THe schwa represents the "generic grunt" vowel used by about 75% of all English words. "X" is a consonant. --Carnildo 06:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- If we're throwing around ideas, why not just add schwa as a letter and deprecate X to symbol status? --tjstrf 05:29, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- As long as the schwa is included, I say, go ahead and use any alphabet you want. --Badger151 04:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- And 'c' is pointless because it can be replaced by 's' or 'k', which would be less ambiguous anyway. And there are lots of other reforms of English orthography that would make sense, but are unlikely to ever happen because people are too hideboundly traditional and even throw hissy fits over the few spelling differences between varieties of English (e.g., "color" vs. "colour"). *Dan T.* 13:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- Wouldn't a very simple solution to this be to make a bot to convert IPA into standard English dictionary-style pronunciation guidelines and add it into the article so that both are available? — Dark Shikari talk/contribs 13:52, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- That's a good idea, but maybe better to have the bot add the dictionary-style phonetics, rather than replacing the IPA versions. --SB_Johnny|talk|books 14:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- Which "standard English dictionary-style pronunciation guidelines"? At least in the United States, each dictionary has their own standard. --Carnildo 18:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- Well, the Oxford English Dictionary uses the IPA for pronunciation. If it's good enough for the OED then it's good enough for me! And, quite frankly, it should be good enough for Wikipedia too, since the OED is (to quote our article) "generally regarded as the most comprehensive and scholarly dictionary of the English language". Or do we want to appear dumbed down? The IPA is not confusing in the slightest. It's actually pretty straightforward. -- Necrothesp 18:57, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- I would personnaly appreciate that bot-thing. It's true that I don't take pride in not knowing the IPA, but I know also that if I didn't learn it yet, there is very little chance for me to wake up one morning and just go learn it. The bot would be a pleasent exercise to learn a practical, useful language. If no bot, then maybe just linking the IPA words to the IPA article would be a start, so that intrigued people could click and get there. If it's made into a template, the template can evolve later to get people to the "translation" of their IPA word.--SidiLemine 14:14, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- It would be awesome if someone were to write an IPA-speech-synthesis module for mediawiki that would make ogg audiofiles on-the-fly.. --Improv 19:06, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- I would personnaly appreciate that bot-thing. It's true that I don't take pride in not knowing the IPA, but I know also that if I didn't learn it yet, there is very little chance for me to wake up one morning and just go learn it. The bot would be a pleasent exercise to learn a practical, useful language. If no bot, then maybe just linking the IPA words to the IPA article would be a start, so that intrigued people could click and get there. If it's made into a template, the template can evolve later to get people to the "translation" of their IPA word.--SidiLemine 14:14, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- Adding a link to IPA should be automatic (I though it was, but that shows what I know) Something else I don't know anything about is how complicated 'bot creation is - assuming that it might take a while to create a 'bot to add the second pronunciation guide, would a 'bot that simply added a link to IPA at the end of each proninciation guide be difficult to create? --Badger151 05:00, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
spoilers
I think there should be a waiting period for adding spoilers to an article - maybe like a month after it's release/showing/etc. Pokemon Diamond and Pearl is rife with storyline spoilers. it's impossible to help edit the article without uncovering a spoiler. --172.163.213.41 05:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- Pokemon games have plots? I never noticed. They certainly don't effect the (imo very good) gameplay... Anyway, if you don't want spoilers, don't read the article. There's a spoiler template right there on the page warning you about it. --tjstrf 07:58, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- I think the problem posed is that it's complicated to edit, not to read. But I think that if you didn't finish the game, you shouldn't try to edit the plot (or any spoilerising section) anyway.--SidiLemine 10:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think it's a problem. There are enough editors who really don't mind. For things where spoilers are more important - like movies, people who actually content edit rarely do so until they have actually watched it. For things like games, spoilers aren't that big a deal. And plenty of us really don't mind it and edit anyway. So if you want to edit but don't want to be spoiled, just wait until you finish the game.
- Not to mention, it's really impossible to impliment such a rule. The purpose of such a policy would be to protect editors from spoilers. But in order to implement the rule, editors would have to remove spoilers when people add them during the waiting period, which involves editors reading the spoilers and then deciding they're spoilers, which defeats the purpose of the rule in the first place. --`/aksha 10:37, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- I think the problem posed is that it's complicated to edit, not to read. But I think that if you didn't finish the game, you shouldn't try to edit the plot (or any spoilerising section) anyway.--SidiLemine 10:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Indian caste system article is under threat by biased users
I have been falsely accused of personal attacks and threatened with account blocking by a user named Hkelkar. This user has taken control of the article above and removes any discussion he disagrees with. The lates case, a comment I entered in the Talk:Indian caste system with teh title "Inextricability from Hinduism", which has been removed twice in an arbitrary way. Please be aware that this sort of things are happening in Wikipedida.--tequendamia 07:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- Plz ignore this user. He has made personal attacks against me and has made extremely hateful comments in the talk page.See WP:PAIN for report[5].He refuses to discuss and only revert-wars. I have tried to reason with him very politely and with WP:Civility but only get a cold silence.Hkelkar 08:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- None of those edits linked to on the WP:PAIN board are personal attacks, nor would I describe them as hate-mongering. This a POV/content dispute. --tjstrf 08:18, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- Plz ignore this user. He has made personal attacks against me and has made extremely hateful comments in the talk page.See WP:PAIN for report[5].He refuses to discuss and only revert-wars. I have tried to reason with him very politely and with WP:Civility but only get a cold silence.Hkelkar 08:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
He refuses to even discuss with me, only edit-war and disrupt.Can somebody at least get him to calm down and discuss civilly with other editors?Hkelkar 08:26, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Request for policy and structural modifications for transwiki to wikibooks
Wikibooks now has Special:Import enabled for transwikiing from wikipedia. We're not quite ready for the big show (we want our "Transwiki:" pseudonamespace turned into a true namespace first for smooth interwikilinking...material in that namespace will now be permanent redirects so wikipedians can find things they're looking for), but I have begun to transwiki recipes into the "Cookbook:" namespace (keep in mind there are very few wikibooks administrators, so clearing the wikipedia backlogs will take some time).
The most recent discussion about this is here, which was where we voted for it, but transwikis from wikibooks have long been a contentious issue for a lot of the wikibookians, because in the past things tended to just get dropped there willy-nilly (often without pagehistories, etc.), sand more often than not just ended up being deleted.
So we're hoping a few policies can be changed here on wikipedia to take full advantage of our shiny new tool. First, we'd like to call an end to copy-paste transwikis (the current mood is to ban copy-paste in lieu of import on the wikibooks side, so the policy here should probably reflect that). Any wikipedian wishing to have something transwikied to wikibooks can simply make the request at Wikibooks:Requests for Import. I personally will bee keeping an eye on Category:Copy to Wikibooks and Category:Articles containing how-to sections, but most of the other admins aren't particularly interested (with the exception of Uncle_G, who I believe is also an administrator on wikipedia).
Second, I'd like to have a few templates/categories we can use to inform both the authors of the articles and the "WP:NOT" patrollers that the transwiki has taken place, and the article can either be switched to a soft redirect, cleaned up to remove how-to/textbookish material, or just deleted. I had made some templates for this a month or so ago, but a bot came through and cleared them out (I never could figure out why), so I'd prefer to leave this part of the work to some more experienced wikipedians (also, the onus of the actual importing and cleaning up on the wikibooks side will most likely be squarely on my shoulders, so I'd rather just watch the policy than try to take part in it).
Templates of the following ilks would be useful:
- 1. A template for articles tagged with {{Copy to Wikibooks}}, along the lines of {{Copied to Wikibooks}} (which is the one cleared out by the bot... it affixes a new category to the page which I hope will be helpful for wikipedians on the cleanup detail).
- 2. A template for articles tagged with {{Howto}}, which would inform any interested party that the article has been safely copied, and the how-to material can be removed. Maybe a category for this too, as a subcategory of Category:Articles containing how-to sections.
- 3. A template for articles imported for forking purposes (i.e., to be used as source material for a book or a chapter of a book). This would be affixed to the talk page of the article in question. This should also be affixed to the talk pages of articles that are copied and then rewritten in an encyclopedic style, so that the contributors whose contributions were removed will (hopefully) find comfort in the fact that they are still being put to good use (and thus hopefully avoid some heated disputes).
- 4. A "no thanks" template for materials that would not have a place on wikibooks. Quite a few of the articles that are tagged for moving to wikibooks are either too stubby to be worth importing (wikibooks is rather unlike wikipedia in the sense that stubs are rarely adopted and developed), aren't appropriate (some stuff seems to actually be transliterations of PD texts, which should go to wikisource), or would clearly not survive our deletion process. Please note also that Jimbo has banned video game guides from wikibooks, so those should go to one of the wikimedia sites (the majority of the ones formerly on wikibooks have gone here).
I should point out that I'm a wikipedian also, and part of why I'm doing the importing is to help the cleanup process here, as well as preventing mess-making there. I'm also a follower of the ism that wikipedia is not doomed, but in some topic areas, wikipedia is more or less done: the only way to improve a lot of the articles is to actually make textbooks out of them, which definitely goes into realms well beyond the limits set by WP:NOT. Wikibooks can be nearly anything, as long as they're NPOV, instructional, and factual: hopefully wikipedians who've already written all they could on their areas of expertise might want to bring it a step further. (Yes, I am plugging a bit here, but after spending a bunch of time wikifying, there is a certain perverse pleasure in de-wikifying :-).) ----SB_Johnny|talk|books 11:34, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
coprighted images
What is the policy on posting images that might allready be part of a copyrighted process? in addition, can individual copyrights be posted for various processess within the website?
- I'm not sure what you mean by a copyrighted process. Does Wikipedia:Copyrights#Image guidelines help? Melchoir 22:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
User deleting inoffensive comments from own talk page
I know removing warnings and block templates from your own talk page is not allowed, but what should one do when a user blanks out their own talk page (including an archive link which had warnings on)? Should they still be warned about it? Should the talk page be reverted? Would be interesting to know what to do in this case... - ||| antiuser (talk) (contribs) 01:32, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- Depends on why they blanked their talk page. Is there a specific incident you are referring to? (Of course there is, or you wouldn't have posted this.) Some people archive their talk page, others don't. Some delete old comments thinking that the page history acts as an archive. I think it really comes down to intent. Why did they blank their talk page?~ ONUnicorn (Talk / Contribs) 01:40, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- I'm referring specifically to User_talk:Snowbound. I'm just used to hitting history any time I see a blank talk page, since usually people do that without archiving to get rid of warnings, but this user didn't seem to have anything particularly bad on there. I didn't know whether to warn them about it, revert it or just leave it alone. ||| antiuser (talk) (contribs) 02:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- It's their talk page and it's not disruptive. I'd say leave it to him. Oh and by the way, your statement that "removing warnings and block templates from your own talk page is not allowed" is incorrect (specifically, there is ongoing debate about this and consensus has not been reached to make it policy). However, removing a message means you've read it, so subsequent behavior may warrant sanctions. >Radiant< 09:44, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- I'm referring specifically to User_talk:Snowbound. I'm just used to hitting history any time I see a blank talk page, since usually people do that without archiving to get rid of warnings, but this user didn't seem to have anything particularly bad on there. I didn't know whether to warn them about it, revert it or just leave it alone. ||| antiuser (talk) (contribs) 02:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Okay, WP:EL says that forums are heavily discouraged as external links because the external links section should only really be used for extra information and not things like social networking. There's a few exceptions to this of course.
So, another editor and I have a disagreement on whether or not the Blasian article should link to the forum "blasian forums" (it's in the article itself right now). He believes having a link is valuable and points to other articles (which haven't had this challenged yet) Eurasian (which has a yahoogroup), Asian fetish (which has another forum), and Oriental (which has a link to a forum debating the term).
I don't strongly believe on precedent in Wikipedia (being that almost everything is on a case-by-case basis because of diverse subject material and sources, and moreover the articles themselves currently have their POV challenged), and I believe that the forums in all those places should probably be moved. But again, we disagree, so I'm taking it here to get more opinions.
I think most of the forum links should be removed in all those articles, actually. I'll ask him to comment here. ColourBurst 05:57, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- Even though a forum may be primarily a social place - if the article is about a social phenomonen, then a forum may well be relevant - especially if the internet plays a role in the said social phenomonen. Forums can also be useful on articles about internet culture, or fiction that is popular mostly on the internet. This is especially true if you're linking to a specific thread (as oppossed to a forum in general). In the oriental article for example, the link it to a specific thread which discusses whether the word "oriental" may be pejorative or insulting, which i think complements the article nicely.
- That being said, i'm not saying forums are generally good to link to. Just that they're not all bad. In this particular case of the Blasian article, i'll say don't link. I think the question that needs to be asked is "would someone who follows the link, and browses the forum find any useful information in addition to what is on wikipedia?". If the link was to a individual thread that contained useful discussion which does provide additional information, then it would be a different story. But it seems to me the link is promotional - the forum is, for a start, tiny (40 members and 3300 posts is tiny for a forum).--`/aksha 06:44, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- Links are primarily for sources, and forums are generally not reliable sources. Also, as Yaksha says, this is a tiny forum and shouldn't promote itself on Wikipedia. >Radiant< 09:39, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- I have commented on the Blasian article talk page...(and have made changes on those articles which I have questioned--which is true, forums should not be linked to...even if it is a thread as those are just random people giving their opinions in a social setting). As I mentioned in my reply on the 'talk' page of the Blasian article, we all have the best interests in mind for the article; and, I believe getting various pov's will help this article in particular, balance out.--Joel Lindley 19:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Images of living children
Today, I found an image of a young boy that had been uploaded and referenced on an article page. The identity of the boy was not relevant to the article, and the quality of the image was such that he would have been clearly identifiable to any family member or anyone else who knows him. Do we have an official policy on this kind of thing, because in my view, it amounts to child abuse and could land Wikipedia in hot legal water. In a way, it's similar to the issues around biographies of living people. --Portnadler 17:32, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- We don't, no. I do not see how a recognizable image amounts to abuse; is the child's address mentioned anywhere? If not, nobody not already familiar with him could locate him anyway. >Radiant< 14:40, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
If a clearly identifiable image of your son or daughter was uploaded and used in a Wikipedia article without your consent, would you not object? --Portnadler 14:50, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- I thought you were talking about child abuse or legal prohibitions; personal objection is a completely separate matter—the difference between concrete harm that may be prosecutable, and simply being considerate of others' feelings. Could you elaborate, and lay out your points a little more clearly, maybe point out the article and image for context? Postdlf 14:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Child abuse? Come on... what damage is possibly being done to the child? Pascal.Tesson 14:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- Well, if the picture is placed on Bedwetting... EVula 15:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Generally, a photo taken in a public place is not considered to be a concern (no expectation of privacy), as long as the context is positive or neutral (as opposed to the bedwetting example). Unless it was accompanied by personal details, such an image is unlikely to pose a hazard to the child anyway. Dragons flight 15:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- What about articles like child or infant? Isn't it important to have appropriate illustrations in those? What if it's the child's parents doing the uploading (I imagine some of the images in child were uploaded by the parents of the children in question)? ~ ONUnicorn (Talk / Contribs) 15:46, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- If it is the child's parents doing the uploading, I don't see what the problem is, given the fact that they have the legal clearance to do such a thing (parents sign contracts for their children, can dictate certain decisions for them, etc.). EVula 15:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- If the image looks suspicious then of course we would look at it more closely, and of course parents, etc. can always give permission. Dragons flight 15:58, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
The UK Information Commissioner considers a photograph of a person, unless (eg) a crowd scene, to be Personal Data, capable of uniquely identifying a living individual (assuming they are alive). This is all rather formal and under the (UK) Data Protection Act 1998. Now, this does not legally affect Wikipedia since it is not a UK organisation and has no offices in the UK, but it should be considered to be a useful guideline. Wikipedia would, if subject to this law, be a "Data Controller", and, as such, would have the duty to inform the person in the picture that they were "processing" this picture, and would have the duty to remove it (under section 10 of that act) if the individual objected.
This means that any photograph, not a child's photograph, is a debatable asset if of a living individual.
Pictures of dead people are fine, they have no rights! Fiddle Faddle 15:59, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yeah, screw the dead! Wait...
- Even by this guideline, it would still be fair if the parents uploaded the pics, since, as the legal guardians, they would be the ones to be contacted about "processing" the picture. EVula 16:06, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- Technically, yes. However, if the child is old enough to understand the implications of giving or witholding consent (there is no statutory age in the UK for this) the child may require the picture to be removed, and the child may release the picture for publication.
- The challenge faced is the GFDL licence - "once uploaded the world owns it" (I know it has different implications). I think this means a formal policy for pictures of living people is essential, and stated on the upload page. Fiddle Faddle 16:22, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- We don't need to predict every possible usage under every possible law. GFDL allows for-profit uses, yet for example, photographs of living people used on commercial products may violate rights of publicity, or give rise to a cause of action for false endorsement. What other people do with it outside of Wikipedia pursuant to the GFDL license is their own concern. Postdlf 16:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Let's take a possible example. Wicked Uncle Ernie takes a picture of his pretty 12-year old niece wearing high-heeled shoes. Unbeknown to said niece and her parents, Ernie then uploads the picture to Wikipedia and uses it in an encyclopedic article about shoe fetishism. There is no copyright issue: Ernie took the picture himself. But how would you react if you were the girl's parents? --Portnadler 16:41, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- Now, add to that senario one where Weird Uncle Ernie says he is the girl's father. We have no way of verifying. ~ ONUnicorn (Talk / Contribs) 16:47, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- I can't imagine that we'd keep an image of a child in an article about a sexual topic, even though the image in itself did not qualify as child porn; it just wouldn't be a relevant or appropriate illustration. But I thought you had an actual example, not just a hypothetical. Postdlf 16:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, that's like saying we have no way of verifying the provenance of any picture that the uploader claims as his/her own (unless the real photographer makes a complaint). --Portnadler 16:50, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- This is true, but right now we don't even ask about pictures of people (children or adults) and permission. We do ask about copyright. ~ ONUnicorn (Talk / Contribs) 16:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- That's because applicable U.S. laws require us to observe copyright, but not to get permission for taking/using someone's picture, child or not. Postdlf 16:55, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
The issues need to be focused, instead of shifting every time someone asks a question (this is unfortunately typical for every time an issue with possible moral implications is discussed here). There are three separate issues, all assuming there are no copyright issues and they are taken in a location at which the photographer had a right to be present:
- What are the legal consequences, if any, under relevant U.S. and Florida law for posting photographs of minors that were taken without the permission of the parents or minor?
- Is there any potential concrete harm to minors from the use of their photographs on Wikipedia without permission that we should adopt policy to prevent?
- Should Wikipedia adopt policy to address the personal objections of parents to the use of photographs of their children?
Keep the issues separate. "Parents may object" is a non sequitor to "It doesn't constitute child abuse." Postdlf 17:08, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- That's a helpful analysis. I am not qualified to answer the first question, but my responses to 2 and 3 are both "yes". We have to obey the laws of the relevant jurisdiction, but we can go beyond them when establishing Wikipedia policy. It is possible to argue a case for using something based on the UK Data Protection laws for pictures of any living person, as has been mentioned above. However, I started this discussion primarily because I think there is an issue of protection of minors from having identifiable pictures of them posted without permission and possibly in inappropriate places. --Portnadler 17:16, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- Ok, so now that you're focusing on issue #2, could you explain what harm you believe minors need to be protected from that results from the photographs, and what should we do about it? Once again, please use your actual example you referred to when you started this topic with—identify the article and image so we have some context. Postdlf 17:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- To answer your questions:
- None that I know of.
- No. A picture is just a picture. If there is personal information (an extreme example: an eight-year-old girl holding up a sign with her address on it), it should be speedily deleted, no questions asked.
- If there is a way to verify the parental status, yes (similar to how celebrities have to submit a picture of themselves to verify with Wikipedia who they are, same thing with the parents, perhaps).
- That make sense? EVula 18:13, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
A rewrite of the above guideline has been written at Wikipedia:External links/workshop. Edits and discussion welcome. Steve block Talk 21:37, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- Any rewrite is certainly something someone can propose, but there is nothing like any sort of consensus that the guideline needs to be or should be discussed broadly like this, rather than discussing each section separately. 2005 21:44, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- Contrary to 2005's stated opinion, mutiple people have already worked on this rewrite as a consensus effort. As should be readly apparent by the editing history, and discussion. Further involvement from the wikipedia comunity is invited and encouraged. --Barberio 22:37, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- There is no consensus that the guideline should be rewritten in this way, period. Please refrain from making blatantly false statements. 2005 23:25, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- What's with the extra agression? If you bother to read the proposed rewrite you'll see that this is not a radical change but rather a welcome simplification of the existing guideline that does not in any way alter its core principles. Pascal.Tesson 23:50, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- Please compare the document to what it is intended to replace, and I'd suggest you also review the discussions that have been underway for months. The proposed rewrite is radically different, and aims to drastically alter core principles. The author believes the current guideline is full of cruft and creeping bureaucracy. It is always fine to propose radical changes, but that is all this is, the very beginning of a proposal for radical changes that is not the result of any consensus of need. 2005 09:55, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- I see that you're pretty incensed about the rewrite but frankly I have had nothing to do with it and my assessment above was an honest one. I know the current WP:EL pretty well and I truly feel that the rewrite is not a substantial change of orientation and a welcome simplification and clarification. You might need to take a step back and make sure that your anger over the way these changes were proposed has not clouded your judgment on their value. Pascal.Tesson 17:34, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- Please refrain from making these strange comments. Pointing out an inaccuracy and that there is no consensus about something is not being "angry". Please consider your comments more carefully next time. 2005 01:25, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- What's with the extra agression? If you bother to read the proposed rewrite you'll see that this is not a radical change but rather a welcome simplification of the existing guideline that does not in any way alter its core principles. Pascal.Tesson 23:50, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- There is no consensus that the guideline should be rewritten in this way, period. Please refrain from making blatantly false statements. 2005 23:25, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- I do not understand why the animosity by User:2005. If you have concerns, you can express these in the proposal's talk page. IMO, it is a good attempt. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:40, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Sockpuppet notice enforcement
I'm unsure of where to ask this, so I figured this would be a good place. I'm curious as to what level of enforcement we're supposed to take on suckpuppet warnings. For example, DreamGuy (talk · contribs) and Victrix (talk · contribs) have been tagged as "Likely" sockpuppets (the Request for checkuser). DreamGuy, however, has been removing the tag repeatedly from his user page (insulting everyone who restores it [6][7][8][9][10]).
Now, personally, I think DreamGuy is a dick. Because of my (rather impassioned) interest in the matter, though, I don't want to wade in and start enforcing its existence if he's not breaking a policy by removing it. I did some poking around, but didn't find anything.
Can anyone weigh in (on the tag's enforcement, not the matter of DreamGuy himself)? EVula 21:58, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- Where are these cases coming from all of a sudden? There's a similar incident over on WP:AN/I right now, too.
- No, we don't use the sockpuppet or sockpuppeteer warnings as big scarlet As on editors in good standing. ('Good standing' is broadly defined here, basically anyone who is not blocked.) I note that the Victrix account hasn't made any edits since June, so this seems to be a rather stale issue. If Victrix resumes editing – and does so in a manner which is not beneficial to Wikipedia – then it would be appropriate to ban him as a disruptive sock and apply the proper template. (A non-indef block for the puppeteer would be appropriate too, in such a case.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- Alrighty, thanks. Given the fact that there's no solid policy about it, I'll just stay out of it (not going to restore the warning, but won't help DreamGuy remove it, either, as it just feels to me that it should be there). I think I'm too emotionally invested to really edit with a clear head; I can very easily see myself saying "take that, jerk!" with each reversion. :-) EVula 04:31, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
a clearer policy regarding linking to fansites
there's a long-running debate regarding the inclusion of notable fansite links on the LOST article; it specifically concerns the inclusion of a link to lostpedia (a wiki concerning the television series LOST), but it broadly impacts fansites in general.
the status quo is that comparable articles (X-Files, Star Trek, Firefly, Battlestar Galactica, Futurama, South Park, Angel (TV series), Desperate Housewives, Gilmore Girls, Veronica Mars, The Office (US TV series), The Simpsons, Saturday Night Live) all have links to external fansites, whilst the Lost (TV series) article has a link to the fuselage, an official, abc-endorsed forum, but no links to unofficial sites, unlike the aforementioned articles.
it is this editors belief that a clique of editors are resisting the inclusion of a link to (an)other notable fansite(s) (for what reason, i do not know) in the article - the main reason cited being the theories section present in many articles on lostpedia, which in a way constitutes original research - the nature of the show essentially encourages theories.
the purpose of this addition to the discussion on policy is not to garner votes in a straw poll, or anything like that; it is to suggest that a greater degree of clarity is desirable in the policies that determine whether or not fansites deserve inclusion in an article. comments on this are most welcome.
a more detailed discussion of this issue is at Talk:Lost (TV series)/Fansites --Kaini
addendum: although by no means desiring to call the Jimmy Wales card, his comments on the issue are here. --Kaini 03:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- As a general rule, fansites are inappropriate. See WP:EL. Also, WP:RS though that really just provides a bit of background, nothing directly relevant. However, WP:EL is a guideline, not an official policy, and even if it were official policy, it is sometimes appropriate to add a single particularly notable fansite. I am concerned that generally (though not necessarily in this case) people seem to use the fact that other articles violate policies or guidelines as an excuse to violate the policies or guidelines on another article. Yes, these should be applied consistently, but that's grounds for enforcing the policies or guidelines, not ignoring them in yet another place. When it comes to external links in general, we need far fewer of them on the Wikipedia. And when we allow one fansite, it is much harder to say no to the second. Or the third. Or the tenth, and plenty of articles have links to ten fansites (well, until I find them anyway). We are fast becoming a link farm. That said, I have not looked at this particular site specifically and I strongly suspect a compelling case could be made for its inclusion. If it is in fact an official site (this is not at all clear to me), the case is made right there. --Yamla 04:15, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- lostpedia is not an official site - and i completely agree with you on the issue of one external link being equivalent to 'the boy who took his finger out of the dam'; however, the site has notability (see the more detailed discussion linked above for this), and is also widely used by many forums (which, granted, are certainly not notable sources in themselves) as reference material - as an aside, on past evidence the regular editors of the article in question are vigilant enough to remove any spam added very quickly. what troubles me the most, however, are the facts that;
- "lostpedia is a wiki" seems to me to be an integral part of many of the arguments against its inclusion; surely the fact that lostpedia is a resource that anyone can edit should not be an obstruction to the addition to one line in one article on the encyclopaedia anyone can edit?
- the fact many other comparable articles include similar, external links - granted, you have addressed this above, but the point still stands. --Kaini 04:28, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- First off, let me state that I hate Lost. Secondly, let me state that I believe linking to Lostpedia would be warranted, as the site seems to meet the criteria for being a notable fansite, and that its being a wiki should promote its inclusion, not discourage it. --tjstrf 05:09, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- If the Lost wiki is accurate enough that the only mistakes are minor at best, there is no reason not to include it. Furthermore, I don't see any problem with linking one (and I stress that) fansite so long as it's a well-designed site with some sort of resource beyond what this wiki could provide without violating any major copyright. For example, sites that distribute the episodes would readily fail. – Someguy0830 (Talk | contribs) 05:12, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- lostpedia is not an official site - and i completely agree with you on the issue of one external link being equivalent to 'the boy who took his finger out of the dam'; however, the site has notability (see the more detailed discussion linked above for this), and is also widely used by many forums (which, granted, are certainly not notable sources in themselves) as reference material - as an aside, on past evidence the regular editors of the article in question are vigilant enough to remove any spam added very quickly. what troubles me the most, however, are the facts that;
- I think fansites are fine as long as they fit the categories of "Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article" and "Sites that contain neutral and accurate material not already in the article.". Fansites for fictional works sometimes include detailed information that would be considered fancruft on wikipedia, so linking to a fansite which does provide accurate information on the topic which is not in the wikipedia article should be fine.
- That being said, the majority of fansites don't. But in the case of a fansite which is informative, and contains information beyond what we should include in an encyclopedia article, and is relatively notable within the fandom for that fictional work, should be appropriate.
- I don't think saying a fansite contains original research theories if a decent reason not to include it. If it includes only theories, then it probably shouldn't be included because it contains no additional information not already on the article. But if it does have additional information, as long as it's not passing theories off as facts, i think it's fine. --`/aksha 07:04, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- There are several problems, for example: if you allow Lostpedia then you have to allow LostWikia.. if you allow them two then you have to allow Lost-TV and so forth the ball begins rolling until the article is entirely a link farm, there is a fair solution though, have no fan links. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 07:11, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- By that line or argument, it would be best and most easy for everyone if we didn't allow any External Links at all. After all, once we start allowing one type of external links, we'll start allowing another type, and the group of allowed external links will expand, and soon we'll have a link farm. Allowing one fansite doesn't nessasarily mean allowing both.
- If there are many fansites which offer additional information on the topic which isn't already in the article, then people will have to consider how many external links should be on the article, and just how much additional information the fansite needs to have before it should be listed. And things like which of the two Lost Wikis are bigger, have more articles, have more content...etc.
- No fanlinks at all is not a 'fair' solution. But it is a easy solution, a very good excuse to avoid the problem altoghther, and a lazy way out of actually making an attempt to differentiate between different fansites.
- The term "fansite" is a very broad term. --`/aksha 08:02, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- If you start excluding links to fansites, then you have to exclude links to any sites, and then you have to exclude the nearly-crufty facts, and then you have to exclude all the facts, and then there's nothing left to cull but the wiki software code. (joke) I agree that saying "no links" is easier than saying "only the best links", but I also agree that it's lazy. Editorial judgment applies to links as well as to prose. --Loqi T. 09:19, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- There are several problems, for example: if you allow Lostpedia then you have to allow LostWikia.. if you allow them two then you have to allow Lost-TV and so forth the ball begins rolling until the article is entirely a link farm, there is a fair solution though, have no fan links. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 07:11, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think that any site that can be editing by anyone at any time qualifies as a "primary source". >Radiant< 09:41, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- No-one's asking to cite a fan site as a source. What's being asked for is mention of the existence of a particular site. --Loqi T. 10:57, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- There is nothing inappropriate about fansites in general, and they are often by far the best links on a topic, going into far more detail than an article here could ever get into. But fan sites should not be added just because they exist. If they meet "Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article" and/or "Sites that contain neutral and accurate material not already in the article" then they could be linked to. There is considerable ongoing discussion about this at Wikipedia_talk:External links, with some people thinking the negative phrase "fan sites" is not useful to talk about at all, while others go the opposite way and just want to prohibit linking to any non-commercial fan site. Several attempts to amend the external links guideline regarding fansites (particularly by emphasizing that they need to be high quality to be linked to) have all failed in the past couple months, so if you do want to be a part of a broader discussion on this topic, one is already going on at Wikipedia_talk:External links. 2005 10:20, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Why do they not just take a vote, list all the fan sites and see which sites get the most votes in a poll of editors who have been editing the article for at least a month or have over X edits, leave the poll open forever and as votes change change the links. Make it a cap of two or three links to fan sites and the votes contribute, if anything it will turn the article into a better one as people who want to come from their favorite fansite to vote will need to help the article before they can have theirs counted. I am sure this idea can use tweaking like simply not allowing single purpose accoutns to vote or something. --NuclearZer0 12:50, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- I'd say that linking to some fansites is good; but Wikipedia is not a web directory, so e.g. linking to a fan forum with 50 members is not necessary except as promotion for that forum. >Radiant< 14:55, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Separating Article Links
There just is something annoying to me when you go to click on a link for something, and it turns out that in reality, each word is its own link.
Such as, United States Navy Admiral Hyman G. Rickover, in which case "United States Navy", "Admiral" and "Hyman G. Rickover" are all separate links.
I think that there could be something to delineate that there are different links therein before you have the cursor over or have clicked.
--Jickyincognito 08:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I usually hover over a multi-word link to see what gets underlined. It would be nice not to have to do that though. When I write, I try to construct my sentences to avoid just this problem. I'd rather have the freedom to write the best sentence for the job. A subtle visual cue would fix both annoyances. It'd probably be best to write some kind of adjustment into the wiki rendering software than to adopt a textual writing convention among editors. Maybe consecutive links could be given extra spaces between them, or be given slightly different colors? --Loqi T. 09:40, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- You can usually tell by the spacing. If you want, you can probably trick your CSS into adding a symbol after each link. >Radiant< 09:41, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- If you have your preferences set to not underline links, you can try setting it to always underline links, that should make a visible gap like Radiant was talking about. --Interiot 14:49, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Usage of images in signature
There is an ongoing discussion regarding use of images in signatures on the WP:ANI page. Please click here. If you want to discuss about the issue edit the page there, and if you want to tell me how tactless I have been, you can come to my talk page. :) — Nearly Headless Nick {L} 16:24, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
WP:NPA's scope
I have a question regarding WP:NPA's scope - I was informed recently that only attacks on editors constitute a violation. But what if a demeaning reference to women as "virgins" and senior citizens as "old-age pensioners" is posted on a user talk page[11]? There are many women and old people who contribute to Wikipedia and (will) find those "general" statements quite insulting. While an administrator informed me that such statements are not violative of WP:NPA[12], I'd like to have more opinions. Rama's arrow 18:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think the reference to "virgins" was referring to women per say. I think it was more referring to children and people young enough that adults want to protect them from profanity and nudity (and presumably, the adults that are doing the protecting). At any rate, looking at that specific comment I don't think it was ment to be an attack on anyone or group of people so much as it was meant to convey impatience with people who don't approve of certian language and images. I think you have to take things in context, and not cry "attack" or "Racist" or "Sexist" at every possible opportunity. ~ ONUnicorn (Talk / Contribs) 19:39, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- If you look at the user's block record, you'll know there is a reason to discount WP:AGF. I have never heard of the use of the term "virgin" for "children" or "young people." Rama's arrow 20:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- "Virgin" means someone who has never had sex. It does not matter if that person is male or female, young or old. Though most of the time children have never had sex (i.e., are virgins), and it is children people seem to want to protect from any reference to sex. ~ ONUnicorn (Talk / Contribs) 13:20, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- Exactly - the meaning is not "children," but those who "have not had sex." This "insult" could apply to the 40-year old virgin. Rama's arrow 15:25, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- My point was that it was not specifically aimed at women. Also, taken in the context of a discussion on censorship it seemed to be referring to children and those who seek to protect them by censoring sexual content. ~ ONUnicorn (Talk / Contribs) 15:27, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- Anyway, an administrator has advised me that its not a violation of NPA. I was looking for more feedback, but I guess this settles the point. Thanks, Rama's arrow 15:26, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Just a note: the relevant policy here would be WP:CIVIL. This was not intended as a personnal attack. I believe it is indeed improper but it is not targeted at anyone in particular. Pascal.Tesson 15:36, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- I thought so too. The only thing that made me feel that it was a "personal attack" was the explicit sexual insinuation - that is a subject which is generally deeply personal. Rama's arrow 15:44, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
English language policy
Can anyone direct me to a policy that says content in the English Wikipedia should actually be in English? I know this sounds rediculous, but the parameters for Template:French commune are in French, i.e. instead of "mayor" they have "maire" and instead of "population" they have "sans". I brought this issue up on the template talk page and was informed that this was on purpose so that it would be easier to copy content from the French Wikipedia. Unfortunately, I can't find any policy to refute this argument. Kaldari 22:25, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- Er... wow. The closest thing I can find is Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), which isn't terribly applicable. I agree with you, but just can't find anything to back you up... in lieu of an actual policy on it, I'd suggest implementing the "if" method that ThePromenader mentioned. EVula 22:41, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I think this is what you're looking for. Not sure how it applies to the French language, but the it might carry over a bit. --Jabrwocky7 23:09, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- Per the guide to writing better Wikipedia articles, use foreign words sparingly, and include native spellings in non-Latin scripts in parentheses. from WP:MOS. Durova 05:51, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- Given the template, it might be better to leave it or to at least continue to allow French parameters. We tend to get this info directly from French Wikipedia, and it is much easier to simply copy the table (which is translated for readers) than to translate each time. Many foreign Wikipedias have tables in English for exactly the same reasons. A bot and judicious use of parser functions could fix it if there were are serious problem. Physchim62 (talk) 13:45, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- So long as the template also accepts english parameters and always displays in English, there probably shouldn't be a major issue -- there is the concern that English-speakers who would want to edit template text may find it difficult to do so though. I wonder if use of a double template, the first substed to reparameterise the second, would work. --Improv 14:57, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- Given the template, it might be better to leave it or to at least continue to allow French parameters. We tend to get this info directly from French Wikipedia, and it is much easier to simply copy the table (which is translated for readers) than to translate each time. Many foreign Wikipedias have tables in English for exactly the same reasons. A bot and judicious use of parser functions could fix it if there were are serious problem. Physchim62 (talk) 13:45, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- That's not a bad idea. It might also be possible to craft a bot that can periodically do the conversion.... TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:29, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
User page warnings
copied from admin noticeboard.
Hi, I've been canvassing some support recently, as some of you may have seen, for a program/project to harmonise all of the user page templates and warnings. I'm looking for an admin, not necessarily to carry out much work, but who will be able to point me in the right direction, on certain issues. I'm willing to do all the leg work, but could just do with someone sitting on my shoulder to achieve this goal. If you're interested, or would like to know more please see here .Have a glance through all the different types of warnings and if you have any ideas please list them.
- This doesn't necessarily apply just to admins hence the reason copied here, but anyone with suggestions or willing to contribute to create a standard for users page warnings and messages. Regards Khukri (talk . contribs) 12:44, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Notability (pornographic actors) as notability guideline
This proposed guideline has been extensively used and referred to for its intended purpose, to simplify Wikipedia:Articles for deletion discussion, during the past five months, an average of more than every other day. It has simplified discussion, and made it less contentious. It has grown and reacted to discussion and the results of those AfDs; it reflects community practice, and is the sum of many points of view. It has been five months as a proposal. It is not perfect, but it is a lot better than nothing. I believe it is now time to mark it as a full fledged notability guideline, and subset of WP:BIO.
Please discuss at Wikipedia talk:Notability (pornographic actors)#Ready to become a notability criteria guideline, and help us reach consensus on marking it as such. AnonEMouse (squeak) 16:02, 20 October 2006 (UTC)