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Block evasion=socking?
Isn't block evasion, by its definition, socking?Jasper Deng (talk) 01:55, 5 January 2012 (UTC)
- No. An IP resetting his IP to avoid a block or a user logging into an alternate, unblocked account isn't socking, but it is block evasion. Reaper Eternal (talk) 02:27, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- But doesn't that constitute the use of multiple accounts to evade sanctions, which is part of socking?--Jasper Deng (talk) 03:27, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
Discussion to change/add wording to the Block policy
reverted edits
It's customary on policy pages to discuss changes on the associated talk page and gain consensus, per WP:BRD. Nobody Ent 02:38, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- I noticed a lot of (and some large) changes to this policy today. I saw a couple comments on the talk page - but not directly related to these changes. Could somebody give me the cliff notes version of what's happening? Was there an RfC or something I missed? — Ched : ? 02:41, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Looked to me like mostly copy editing (rearranging sections). Nobody Ent 02:55, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- While the changes may look large at first sight, each individual change is small. The way the diffs show may give the impression that some changes are large, but they are not. Just read the edit summaries to see what happened. I could have done the changes in fewer edits, but I did one error and I intentionally made a restructuration gradually to ease reviewing. Otherwise, it would have been preferable to do the work in fewer edits. --Chealer (talk) 03:47, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
Unjustified rollback
User:Eraserhead1 and User:Nobody Ent both did a rollback losing several changes today in 479561842 and 479582181, both unjustified. The former was misguided and I reverted it, however I didn't revert the latter for now. The edit summary refers to here, but there is no justification here. I asked the editor to justify on his talk page. Unless a justification would come, it needs to be reverted too. --Chealer (talk) 03:55, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Chealer, my justification is that you seemed to make a very large change that was difficult to see what was going on. Please can you make your changes more slowly so we can use the diff tools effectively to see what's happening.
- I took a diff of your changes and I couldn't see what had changed in a timely fashion.
- You can't just edit war over policy, and all I'm asking is for you to make the changes more slowly - as I said in my edit summary. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:19, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- I also think it was poor form that you only gave me three minutes in the middle of the night to respond to your talk page request. I should have been given at least 24 hours, if not 48. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:25, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- A quick perusal of the policy on the use of rollback does not show me that as one of the valid uses of the tool. Maybe I'm missing something at 5AM. I can understand undoing such an edit, but not rollback (oh, and I agree - attempting to discuss an issue means actual discussion, not a driveby-then-off-to-see-admins) (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:09, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- "The above restrictions apply to standard rollback, using the generic edit summary. If a tool or manual method is used to add an appropriate explanatory edit summary (as described in the Additional tools section below), then rollback may be freely used as with any other method of reverting." Nobody Ent 10:59, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- I think there is a misunderstanding. Slowing edition so that it can be checked is not a request. This was meant to explain how changes can be "checked plausibly". What you probably want is to check each change individually by using the "prev" links on [4]. If you consider that as implausible, then ask for more detailed edit summaries of the specific changes you find hard to analyze. --Chealer (talk) 17:22, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- A quick perusal of the policy on the use of rollback does not show me that as one of the valid uses of the tool. Maybe I'm missing something at 5AM. I can understand undoing such an edit, but not rollback (oh, and I agree - attempting to discuss an issue means actual discussion, not a driveby-then-off-to-see-admins) (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 10:09, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- Hi Eraserhead1, please see Slowing edition so that it can be checked. --Chealer (talk) 17:01, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- OK, I've taken a look. I agree with your structural changes. I'm not sure about your other changes. I want some time to think about it. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:44, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- I've done the first set of structural changes. I'll go and do the rest in a couple of days unless there are any objections. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:16, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- OK, I've taken a look. I agree with your structural changes. I'm not sure about your other changes. I want some time to think about it. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 17:44, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
- I also think it was poor form that you only gave me three minutes in the middle of the night to respond to your talk page request. I should have been given at least 24 hours, if not 48. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 07:25, 1 March 2012 (UTC)
(←) I do not believe "slow down so that I can check them" is a good reason for rollback. I endorse the series-of-small-changes approach taken here. - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 04:28, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- Reminder (per Aaron):
Rollback may be used:
- To revert obvious vandalism and other edits where the reason for reverting is absolutely clear
- To revert edits in your own user space
- To revert edits that you have made (for example, edits that you accidentally made)
- To revert edits by banned users who are not allowed to edit (but be prepared to explain this use of rollback when asked to)
- To revert widespread edits (by a misguided editor or malfunctioning bot) which are judged to be unhelpful to the encyclopedia, provided that an explanation is supplied in an appropriate location, such as at the relevant talk page...
I would urge anyone who is using the rollback feature to brush up on the Wikipedia:Rollback feature guideline. I'd hate to see anyone get in trouble or lose that ability over a simple misunderstanding. Peace — Ched : ? 18:42, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- Meaning depends on context -- the preface to the above list clearly says "it has the disadvantage that only a generic edit summary is generated, with no explanation of the reason for the change. For this reason, it is considered inappropriate to use it in situations where an explanatory edit summary would normally be expected." Then, after list, the guideline notes: The above restrictions apply to standard rollback, using the generic edit summary. If a tool or manual method is used to add an appropriate explanatory edit summary (as described in the Additional tools section below), then rollback may be freely used as with any other method of reverting.
- As the edits in question all had a reasonable edit summary, the rollback prohibition clearly is not applicable. Nobody Ent 22:31, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- I've seen you around enough to know you know what's going on Nobody - wasn't questioning anyone - just saw the "Rollback" post - thought I'd mention it so a newer user or something didn't get their butts in a bind. Carry on ... (In other words, Ched didn't take the time to research anything. :)) — Ched : ? 23:03, 2 March 2012 (UTC)
- I do not believe "slow down so that I can check them" is a good reason for reversion of any kind. Once the person is finished, I go back and you review their edits. There's no problem with the wrong version being on the page while I'm looking. What is proposed as acceptable (reverts any edits "you" have not yet approved) is not how it's meant to work. - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 01:01, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- The top of this page clearly states: "Before editing this page, please make sure that your revision reflects consensus. When in doubt, discuss on the talk page." I don't mind Chealer being bold -- I'm frequently bold myself, but Eraserhead was entirely correct to revert the edits if there was any doubt as to consensus. Nobody Ent 02:17, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- I'll continue to disagree, I'm afraid. If one says "I read and checked this, and I don't think it has consensus" that is clearly acceptable. But to say "I'm reverting because I don't have time to read and approve these edits" is not acceptable. I'm stepping away from the horse now. - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 02:36, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- I'm staggered that anyone would think differently. Beggars belief really. Malleus Fatuorum 02:56, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- And as for the more general question about rollback, it's surely got to be the most useless bauble in the history of baubles. Nobody needs it, it's just an "I gave it and I can take it away" attempt at control. Malleus Fatuorum 02:59, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- That could be misinterpreted, but the context makes it pretty clear that this is talking about policy changes, not about simple restructuring or rewording: "The project page associated with this talk page is an official policy on Wikipedia. Policies have wide acceptance among editors and are considered a standard for all users to follow.". I clarified the template anyway. --Chealer (talk) 06:34, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
- The problem is that we couldn't check your rewording as you made a whole bunch of changes all at the same time. In a few days - once everyone has got used to the new layout and we know there aren't any issues with that, you can start making your content changes. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:23, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
- What are you talking about? Don't include me in your "we". If you (singular) don't know how or don't have time to step through a set of diffs, just step aside and let someone else do it. Did you really think you were the only one able to prevent the total collapse of the encyclopedia? Franamax (talk) 05:21, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
- There is still the issue that it wouldn't necessarily be easy to revert the changes individually. Wikipedia's diff algorithm is quite poor. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:36, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
- I do not understand what you just said at all. The point of making lots of small changes is that it makes it easier to revert out bits? - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 10:01, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
- There is still the issue that it wouldn't necessarily be easy to revert the changes individually. Wikipedia's diff algorithm is quite poor. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:36, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
- What are you talking about? Don't include me in your "we". If you (singular) don't know how or don't have time to step through a set of diffs, just step aside and let someone else do it. Did you really think you were the only one able to prevent the total collapse of the encyclopedia? Franamax (talk) 05:21, 9 March 2012 (UTC)
- The problem is that we couldn't check your rewording as you made a whole bunch of changes all at the same time. In a few days - once everyone has got used to the new layout and we know there aren't any issues with that, you can start making your content changes. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 20:23, 8 March 2012 (UTC)
- I'll continue to disagree, I'm afraid. If one says "I read and checked this, and I don't think it has consensus" that is clearly acceptable. But to say "I'm reverting because I don't have time to read and approve these edits" is not acceptable. I'm stepping away from the horse now. - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 02:36, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
- The top of this page clearly states: "Before editing this page, please make sure that your revision reflects consensus. When in doubt, discuss on the talk page." I don't mind Chealer being bold -- I'm frequently bold myself, but Eraserhead was entirely correct to revert the edits if there was any doubt as to consensus. Nobody Ent 02:17, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
Eraserhead, you used rollback inappropriately and your request that changes only be made the way you want them to be made is not reasonable. You made a mistake, numerous users have tried to explain it to you. So please, stop tap dancing around the obvious, own up to it and move on, Beeblebrox (talk) 01:44, 10 March 2012 (UTC)
- I apologise for my later comments, it wasn't acceptable and was bringing up points that were unreasonable, it was possible to check the diffs - and something in the end I did. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:47, 11 March 2012 (UTC)
Request for comment: Adoption of new unblock appeals tool
Hello, all; an RFC has been opened at Wikipedia_talk:Guide_to_appealing_blocks#Adoption_of_new_unblock_appeals_tool to seek input regarding the implementation of the Unblock Ticket Request System as a replacement for the unblock-en-llists.wikimedia.org mailing list. Comments from all users, especially those who have experience in reviewing blocks, would be greatly appreciated. Hersfold non-admin(t/a/c) 21:15, 6 March 2012 (UTC)
Are they punishments?
Are blocks punishments? --NoObsceneUsernames (talk) 23:31, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
- They shouldn't be, but sometimes are. causa sui (talk) 02:11, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
Query
Under "Setting block options" the policy says: prevent account creation will prevent accounts from being created by the account. How can an account create another account? Does it mean will prevent accounts from being created on the blocked IP address? Victor Yus (talk) 07:35, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
- Some people may be reluctant to provide too much information to this query per WP:BEANS; but I'll say this much. If you look at WP:SOCK you'll notice that we've had a need in the past to address issues where an editor is acting in an unacceptable manner, they were blocked, and they simply stated editing under a different name to carry on that same unacceptable behavior. The technical aspect of "prevent account creation" is simply a measure used to [at least attempt to] prevent this from happening. I'm not sure that fully answers your question, but I hope it explains the concept and the WP:BEANS non-answer. — Ched : ? 13:23, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
- So is my original interpretation (that it means will prevent accounts from being created on the blocked IP address) basically correct? In combination with the following sentence, which implies that the "blocked IP address" is the last IP used by the blocked account (if it's an account rather than an IP that's being blocked), provided "autoblock" is not unchecked? (I don't really need to know; I've just seen "account creation blocked" on certain block log entries, and have been trying to work out what it might mean - without doing the experiment of getting myself blocked to find out.)--Victor Yus (talk) 14:10, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
- If I understand your question .. yes. Sorry for the delay - I hadn't checked back here. — Ched : ? 17:36, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, accounts can create other accounts via Special:UserLogin/signup. The "account creation block" prevents this. It is normally only disabled when the username is inappropriate (e.g. a spammy username) so that the user can create an account with a more appropriate username. The autoblock prevents other users from editing from the IP, and it also prevents further account creation from that IP. Hope this helps. Reaper Eternal (talk) 02:07, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks, but is there any difference of consequence between "an account creating an account" and that user first logging out and then creating the new account? Victor Yus (talk) 06:48, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, accounts can create other accounts via Special:UserLogin/signup. The "account creation block" prevents this. It is normally only disabled when the username is inappropriate (e.g. a spammy username) so that the user can create an account with a more appropriate username. The autoblock prevents other users from editing from the IP, and it also prevents further account creation from that IP. Hope this helps. Reaper Eternal (talk) 02:07, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- If I understand your question .. yes. Sorry for the delay - I hadn't checked back here. — Ched : ? 17:36, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
- So is my original interpretation (that it means will prevent accounts from being created on the blocked IP address) basically correct? In combination with the following sentence, which implies that the "blocked IP address" is the last IP used by the blocked account (if it's an account rather than an IP that's being blocked), provided "autoblock" is not unchecked? (I don't really need to know; I've just seen "account creation blocked" on certain block log entries, and have been trying to work out what it might mean - without doing the experiment of getting myself blocked to find out.)--Victor Yus (talk) 14:10, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
Unblocking bot accounts
Discussion (following close)
That was some of the bizarrest logic I've ever seen. (To be more specific, it seems to assume that "should consider..." means "must and always will...".) Victor Yus (talk) 08:20, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
- Wikipedia does not have hard rules. So while we strongly suggest things, we rarely "mandate".
- That said, presumably a block of a malfunctioning bot is an indefinite one. And afaik, common practice is that when blocking any account indefinitely, an admin either makes it clear why indef, or notes the criteria for unblocking (or both).
- However, I do note that this does not seem to be directly noted in the blocking policy (except somewhat in the section I noted in the close).
- As it's fairly common practice, I presume it could be boldly noted in the policy. But I think I'll wait to add it til others have seen these comments, in case anyone has concerns or suggestions. - jc37 23:38, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
- But even if it is common practice, we shouldn't phrase our instructions to potential unblockers on the unspoken assumption that it definitely will have been done. (Particularly when some people seem treat those latter instructions as the prescriptive type that people might be "punished" for breaching.) I would have thought that when blocking a bot, which can make many edits a minute, speed would be of the essence, so the blocking admin might well not want to spend time spelling out all the conditions - and in any case probably has better things to do than type out the obvious. Victor Yus (talk) 06:48, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
- That seems only common sense. If I found a bot that needed to be stopped, I'd stop it, then look at conditions, etc. Dougweller (talk) 07:02, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps I was taking it for granted as "common sense" (as you note), but afaik, typically when blocking any account, the button is pushed, and then the reasons for it (and the criteria for unblocking) would be noted (if they weren't already made clear).
- Blocking being preventative not punitive, etc etc.
- Though of course, notes, warnings, and other such things often happen before "hitting the button".
- Besides all this, this obviously does not preclude review of the block by another "reviewing admin". Even if the blocking admin neglects to leave such info following a block, there's nothing stopping the bot owner from placing an unblock template request (or emailing, etc.) This discussion was specifically focused on the situation where admin bot owners unblock their own bot, as well as the question of common practice of unblocking their own bot when they felt that whatever was causing it to "malfunction", was repaired.
- I suppose the shortest way to describe the consensus gleaned from the discussion might be that there was clear consensus that an admin bot owner, may only unblock their own bot if: a.) it was malfunctioning and is now repaired, but b.) only if the blocking admin established that as unblocking criteria. There was fairly clear consensus that "presuming" this to be true was inappropriate.
- There were a few that expressed the concern that a blocking admin may be (let's say) "neglectful" to provide this. But that simply did not have consensus to over-ride the concerns about "presumption".
- Incidentally, I'm treating this thread as a "request for clarification of a close". And am responding in that light. - jc37 15:35, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not sure how you reach that conclusion. More people, if anything, seem to be of the view that one can make the commonsense presumption that if the reason for a block was a malfunction, then repair of the malfunction is a ground to remove the block without further bureaucratic time-wasting, and regardless of whether the blocking admin spent the time to spell out this (usually obvious) fact. Victor Yus (talk) 15:42, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
- That seems only common sense. If I found a bot that needed to be stopped, I'd stop it, then look at conditions, etc. Dougweller (talk) 07:02, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
- But even if it is common practice, we shouldn't phrase our instructions to potential unblockers on the unspoken assumption that it definitely will have been done. (Particularly when some people seem treat those latter instructions as the prescriptive type that people might be "punished" for breaching.) I would have thought that when blocking a bot, which can make many edits a minute, speed would be of the essence, so the blocking admin might well not want to spend time spelling out all the conditions - and in any case probably has better things to do than type out the obvious. Victor Yus (talk) 06:48, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
Big problem. Please help.
Hello. This might not be the correct place to post this but I am lost. I have basic knowledge around Wikipedia's administrative pages and I find reaching someone to solve a problem is confusing, fruitless and time consuming. I have been a wikipedia user for years. I am a Syrian citizen and I live in Syria, and most of my contributions to Wikipedia are about minor articles regarding my country. Now, my government has been blocking wikimedia for years now and thus we can't view Wikipedia properly because all images and illustrations are messed up. That is why we all use anonymizers to bypass this problem. When we do this, we are always banned from editing as collateral damage. Right now, I am using my original IP address to write this and believe me it is not pleasant. I have contacted an admin whose blocks I often encounter and he/she seems to be busy these days. My appreciation for his/her concern stands true regardless. Please, I need this problem fixed. Check my IP address and confirm that I am connecting from Syria. Why can't an admin unblock a username? Too complicated? (not being sarcastic here as I am not knowledgeable in that matter).
Thank you and I apologize if I misplaced this post. I just really REALLY want a solution for this. REMcrazy (talk) 18:13, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- I have replied on your talk page. Egg Centric 21:33, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
- I also will respond to the talkpage soon. -- DQ (ʞlɐʇ) 21:52, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
innocent prisoner's dilemma
In cases where significant doubts regarding the innocence or guilt of an editor exist in the community, forcing the editor to make admissions of guilt as a prerequisite to unblocking could punish innocent editors, or reward guilty ones in an innocent prisoner's dilemma.
I suggest this addition to policy, as I don't think wiki-justice is perfect.
disclaimer: I wrote the article. Penyulap ☏ 10:02, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
- There is no requirement that an editor be forced to do anything, so there is no need to add that suggestion to the policy. In particular, it is not a good idea to link to an article that introduces a range of concepts that are unrelated to the policy. A proposal along the above lines should be raised at WP:VPR with some examples showing that extending the policy is necessary (as opposed to covering a theoretical possibility). What would be desirable is that an editor seeking an unblock should provide an outline showing an understanding of the problem, and a plausible explanation of how future problems would be avoided. Johnuniq (talk) 10:32, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
- If there is significant doubt, then that is cause for an agf unblock. But what are the circumstances in which significant doubt could arise? For a registered account, there can be no doubt that the account actually made the edits in question. It is open to the blocked editor to make a case that their edits were not, in fact, disruptive. This does not require any admission of guilt and will result in an unblock if the argument is accepted. If the blocked editor claims they did not make the edits because their little brother/friend/cat did it, then I am afraid the reaction would be to extend the block to indefinite as a compromised account. On the other hand, if it is the view of the reviewing admin that the editor is indeed being disruptive, as Johnuniq says, a believable assurance that it won't happen again is needed before unblocking. The only plausible circumstance the "I didn't do it" defence makes any sense at all is for IP editors either on a shared IP or WP:DUCK blocks of dynamic IP ranges. In the majority of cases this defence is merely trolling. Good faith editors caught in this kind of block using school or library computers should be strongly urged to open an account. The point Penyulap seems to be missing is that blocks are not meant to punish anyone but rather to protect the encyclopedia. While we do our very best to limit collateral damage to good faith editors, this is not a good enough reason for an unblock where we believe the damage would continue once unblocked - unless the collateral damage is extensive such as a too wide rangeblock. SpinningSpark 15:15, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
- The point you're missing is that in reality blocks of registered users are very frequently intended as a punishment for some ill-defined "disruption" or other, a concept idiosyncratically defined by each individual administrator to suit the purpose; to believe otherwise displays an unbelievable degree of naivety. "Disruption" so far as Wikipedia is concerned quite simply means "an opinion I don't agree with". Malleus Fatuorum 15:33, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
- Malleus, you may possibly be right, but the problem you describe is not being addressed by this proposal and is not a solution for it. As I said, "significant doubt" should simply result in an unblock. Whether or not there is significant doubt is a matter of judgement. If the reviewing admin believes there is significant doubt it would be utterly perverse to demand an admission of guilt first. Do we have any examples of that happening? As far as I am concerned, unblocking will happen when the blocked editor credibly undertakes not to continue with the actions that got them blocked, regardless of whether or not they "admit" to those actions being "wrong". SpinningSpark 17:28, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
- But that makes no sense if the blockee considers they've done nothing wrong, and is exactly what the prisoner's dilemma is addressing: "I agree to say whatever it is that you want me to say so that I can be unblocked". Malleus Fatuorum 18:04, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
- I frequently see blocked editors argue that the block is unfair, even though they have been made aware of the policy the are breaching. What they are really arguing is that the policy is unfair. They may be right, and I don't require them to agree that it is fair, just that they will not continue to breach it until such time as they, or someone else, can get it changed. This is an entirely different issue to admins blocking for non-policy reasons. Making a policy aimed at admins who don't take any notice of policy does not strike me as a solution that is likely to work, nor is it the problem that is being addressed by the proposal. SpinningSpark 18:29, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
- But you're failing to address a key issue here; how is "disruption" to be measured, and by whom? The blocking administrator, who in many cases is simply saying "I don't agree with this, and if you don't stop I'll block you"? Malleus Fatuorum 19:12, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
- Pretty much. Nobody Ent 21:36, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
- Since when was policy an end in itself? causa sui (talk) 19:34, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
- No, policy is not an end in itself, but administrators have no authority to make up policy themselves, most especially blocking policy. To answer Malleus' point, this policy page gives details of what is to be considered disruption. If you think that needs tightening, by all means make a suggestion, but your point seems to be that some admins are going to ignore it anyway so it would seem the problem you are bringing here, if it really exists, is not going to be solved on this policy page. SpinningSpark 10:16, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
- But you're failing to address a key issue here; how is "disruption" to be measured, and by whom? The blocking administrator, who in many cases is simply saying "I don't agree with this, and if you don't stop I'll block you"? Malleus Fatuorum 19:12, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
- I frequently see blocked editors argue that the block is unfair, even though they have been made aware of the policy the are breaching. What they are really arguing is that the policy is unfair. They may be right, and I don't require them to agree that it is fair, just that they will not continue to breach it until such time as they, or someone else, can get it changed. This is an entirely different issue to admins blocking for non-policy reasons. Making a policy aimed at admins who don't take any notice of policy does not strike me as a solution that is likely to work, nor is it the problem that is being addressed by the proposal. SpinningSpark 18:29, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
- But that makes no sense if the blockee considers they've done nothing wrong, and is exactly what the prisoner's dilemma is addressing: "I agree to say whatever it is that you want me to say so that I can be unblocked". Malleus Fatuorum 18:04, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
- Malleus, you may possibly be right, but the problem you describe is not being addressed by this proposal and is not a solution for it. As I said, "significant doubt" should simply result in an unblock. Whether or not there is significant doubt is a matter of judgement. If the reviewing admin believes there is significant doubt it would be utterly perverse to demand an admission of guilt first. Do we have any examples of that happening? As far as I am concerned, unblocking will happen when the blocked editor credibly undertakes not to continue with the actions that got them blocked, regardless of whether or not they "admit" to those actions being "wrong". SpinningSpark 17:28, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
- The point you're missing is that in reality blocks of registered users are very frequently intended as a punishment for some ill-defined "disruption" or other, a concept idiosyncratically defined by each individual administrator to suit the purpose; to believe otherwise displays an unbelievable degree of naivety. "Disruption" so far as Wikipedia is concerned quite simply means "an opinion I don't agree with". Malleus Fatuorum 15:33, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
Should a blocked user be forced to take sides when a dispute has broken out over the original block, rather than examining the original block on it's own. Would removal of the block pending further bad behaviour by the banned editor be a better standard of proof than punishing integrity by creating the dilemma. Excluding requirements of admission in disputed cases and examining further behaviour on it's own would solve the problem, but appeals do not always succeed in a manner that is 'perfect'. Penyulap ☏ 22:25, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
- As explained above, no one is forced to do anything. No, we should not remove blocks simply to see if the user repeats the problem. The reason we have many problematic users is that their first couple of blocks were removed too quickly, without due reason for the unblock. If a blocked editor does not provide a convincing request for an unblock (see outline by SpinningSpark above), they should go to another website until the block expires. Unblocks where the user has not expressed any understanding of the problem only encourage a belief that the user was fully correct all along, and that they should repeat their behavior. Johnuniq (talk) 07:10, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
- Force is exactly what the discussion is about, I'm wondering if you want to investigate the issue in detail this time. Penyulap ☏ 12:30, 1 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- No, this is all about Rich Farmborough, who was banned from using AWB, used AWB and got caught out, and is now facing the consequences. That's the fact, everything else is a ridiculous smokescreen. The guy has even put his hands up and said he's done it, and apologised. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:40, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
- Force is exactly what the discussion is about, I'm wondering if you want to investigate the issue in detail this time. Penyulap ☏ 12:30, 1 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- Well it's hard to argue with that logic, except that Rich is not claiming to be innocent, or likely to, and then there is the appeals process, and Rich is cool with making apologies as am I. I don't think it applies to him so much as actual innocent editors in general who may be blocked by mistake. I don't want to address any single incident, if that were the case I would tailor my strategy to the case in hand rather than taking the sometimes longer route of adjusting policy, and then gaining retrospective application of it. I wish to clarify if we are comfortable working under the assumption that all blocks are correct and justified in all cases, and as a result, we should ask blocked editors appealing the block that they make admissions, which, if they are innocent, would amount to lies. Such a policy filters out honest people, keeping them out of wikipedia whilst rewarding the editors who are happy to lie to us, by welcoming them back to the project.
- Also, although I can see the future, and maybe I just forgot that I foresaw Rich getting banned, in the future, at the time that I edited the policy page, I figure you may be mistaken where you are saying "No, this is all about Rich Farmborough".
- Obviously, something brought the flaws in the policy to my attention, (there is no button to click that says 'fix this policy' omg, I have to make one for my talkpage, what a laugh !) The matter that alerted me is the block appeal here I made for someone who quite a few editors thought was innocent of any wrongdoing. In fact, I think a few suggested he was doing a good thing. That block appeal is no secret, I mention and link to the page and article which I was quite surprised did not exist on english wikipedia, so rather than write some essay I figure do something more useful by documenting the concept itself, and link to that. I mentioned that I was looking at the possible flaws of unblocking policy and guidelines, and I also linked to the article I wrote, you can find both links here.
- You've been here on wikipedia longer than I have Elen, so do you think it is more useful if I illustrate the concept using an essay or an article ? Maybe as an article, people won't consider it properly, as they have an ingrained mindset that the concepts they should apply exist only in the wikipedia world, and not the real one. I see SarekOfVulcan has nominated the article for deletion as soapboxing, I invite you to comment on that discussion as a critic. Penyulap ☏ 14:38, 1 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- Hmmm, so this comes from your desire to support an editor who was blocked for throwing rude epithets at Japanese editors. Nice one. Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:33, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
- I seem to have missed the bit where you provided a diff to where Histiographer was asked to admit guilt. SpinningSpark 16:20, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
- Spinningspark,... there is no diff given as this has only an incidental, if any at all, relation to that case. This is about the future effects of a possibly flawed policy.
- Elen,...Not at all. That case has basically closed and it was thoroughly examined. It did however raise interesting questions, for example there were editors who suggest that the banned editor was guilty, as you seem to have noticed, and there were other editors who made comments such as this
- You've been here on wikipedia longer than I have Elen, so do you think it is more useful if I illustrate the concept using an essay or an article ? Maybe as an article, people won't consider it properly, as they have an ingrained mindset that the concepts they should apply exist only in the wikipedia world, and not the real one. I see SarekOfVulcan has nominated the article for deletion as soapboxing, I invite you to comment on that discussion as a critic. Penyulap ☏ 14:38, 1 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- ..looks to me like someone ... attempting attempting to show empathy, ... the proper response isn't a block, but some wikilove.
- I highly agree, has the blocking admin been contacted?
- I very much disagree with you. This block is significantly out of proportion. ...a block is not warranted here, a warning is.
- [the banned editor was giving] Good advice, if accompanied by stronger language than necessary.
- A week would have been defensible, not three months
- ..looks...more like a user tired of edit wars who is giving out good advice to fellow Koreans.
- I would be inclined to view his remarks as basically meaning "Don't let the Japanese trolls get you down". The parenthetical remark literally means "Don't throw bait"
- The user was banned in the end, however it does raise interesting questions, the obvious question is, what if, in future, someone was innocent ? naturally there is the superficial response 'nobody is innocent, everyone banned is guilty' idea, the logic of which is questionable. The more mature consideration is to accept the fact that mistakes do occur, or at the least, are possible. That being the case, would demanding an admission be in effect filtering out the hypothetical 'innocent editors' who cannot lie, whilst rewarding and welcoming those editors who are most willing to lie, and do it convincingly.
- I don't know how many times we have to say this, but blocked editors are not required to admit guilt. Historiographer is not banned and will be able to edit again once the block expires. No one is maintaining that mistakes never get made, that is why there is an appeals process. Historiographer is able to use that process at any time. SpinningSpark 17:17, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
- Wikipedia does not maintain a prison system. Nobody Ent 23:00, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
- Exile.
- Change your socks and climb back over the wall. Climb ? well, it's a walk, or a gentle stroll really. Why can't I get Chief Wiggum out of my head here ? I thought Indonesian prisons were lenient by comparison, but then again, if wikipedia ran a prison, HA! Still, it is the same concept, exile. Pointless to make it 'indef' too, should be like 5 years or something, so we can get back the ones who do mature. Penyulap ☏ 06:18, 3 Jun 2012 (UTC)
Link
Hello.
I am proposing the addition of a link to Block (Internet) in the lead paragraph on the bolded word. Thank you. 69.155.128.40 (talk) 05:21, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
RfC: third party request for unblock
Should this be added
"A third party may request the review of a block at the Administrators' noticeboard."
Penyulap ☏ 14:06, 27 Jun (UTC)
- I think there should be a procedure for review of blockings. Currently, there seems not to be a way to question an overly harsh block simply becuase the block editor is now gone. Maybe he wouldn't be gone if the block wasn't excessively harsh. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 14:18, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- I think it warrants a mention as there are differing assumptions on the matter. Penyulap ☏ 14:20, 27 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- While I agree in principal that any user should be able to request review of any administrative action that they feel was wrong, I think we should be careful not to burden blocking admins with reviews just because we think they may have been a bit harsh. Review at AN/I or AN should primarily be for cases where the block was fundamentally defective, and the person should not have been blocked at all, or where the block duration was contrary to policy (such as an indef IP block on a first offense). In such clear cases, anyone should be able to request review if, after trying to discuss it with the blocking admin, the issue is unresolved. What we should not do is invite second guessing of admins over discretionary block lengths for conduct that was properly blockable. First, many times a blocked editor who requests an unblock and demonstrates that they understand what they did wrong and will make a good faith effort to avoid similar conduct will be unblocked without the need for an extended discussion. Second, where the blocked editor is not making the request, it can be hard to tell if they even understand why they were blocked. Finally, we want to respect the discretion of the blocking admin, and don't want a process that encourages those with an axe to grind to endlessly drag admins to the drama boards. Monty845 14:42, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- would it be better if the original blocking admin has nothing to do with the review of the block ? Penyulap ☏ 14:50, 27 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- I would say the blocking admin almost *must* be a part of that process, or must have given an extremely clear rationale for the block, so that people know why it occured. -- Avanu (talk) 14:53, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- would it be better if the original blocking admin has nothing to do with the review of the block ? Penyulap ☏ 14:50, 27 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- As Monty says, there are times a review is warranted. However, many times people use process to harass. Considering that anyone is able to request a block or adverse action against an editor, the converse should also be true. Admins should be able to figure out when something needs to be closed and when it is worth discussing, an easy rule of thumb would be simply when quite a few editors join the request by affirming that it worth discussion. We are, after all, supposed to operate on egalitarian consensus here. -- Avanu (talk) 14:53, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- It should be included, yes. Perhaps with a caveat that abusing the block review request process will result in a WP:BOOMERANG? - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 15:08, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- In way, leaving it open makes it less likely to be abused. If we don't forbid a third party person from making a request, then the assumption is that they can, and if we don't mention it either, people aren't as tempted to use it. There's probably an elegant way to make the point without making it too strongly. -- Avanu (talk) 15:10, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- The assumption is that the can for some people, and the assumption is that they can't for other people, leaving it up to assumption leads to confusion, and policy documents avoid that. Addressing the issue of abuse in some other way, rather than using murky conflicting assumptions of policy to do so, may be less work for everyone in the end. Simply establishing a consensus (on the block) in the usual way, directing new enquiries to the old consensus, and updating it if things change is a familiar path and process which people would have less difficulty with. Penyulap ☏ 15:42, 27 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- I agree. Best to minimize confusion. I propose a modification of your original wording to this: "An editor in good standing may request that another editor be unblocked by starting a review of the block on the Administrator's Noticeboard. Editors are cautioned that making an excessive number of these requests against consensus may be considered disruption, and may lead to community sanctions against them. No request should be made in this fashion if the blocked editor has an ongoing unblock request on their own talk page, nor if the blocked editor has stated that they do not wish to be unblocked at the present time." - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 16:44, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- The assumption is that the can for some people, and the assumption is that they can't for other people, leaving it up to assumption leads to confusion, and policy documents avoid that. Addressing the issue of abuse in some other way, rather than using murky conflicting assumptions of policy to do so, may be less work for everyone in the end. Simply establishing a consensus (on the block) in the usual way, directing new enquiries to the old consensus, and updating it if things change is a familiar path and process which people would have less difficulty with. Penyulap ☏ 15:42, 27 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- In way, leaving it open makes it less likely to be abused. If we don't forbid a third party person from making a request, then the assumption is that they can, and if we don't mention it either, people aren't as tempted to use it. There's probably an elegant way to make the point without making it too strongly. -- Avanu (talk) 15:10, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- No; the blocked user should have indicated they want a block review - the only time a third party would make it is if the user has not been told how to request unblock, but does want to be unblocked. On the issue of block reviews (raised primarily by monty), I have seen several admins improve their approach significantly where although there was a consensus for a block, the consensus was that the duration be changed. If admins are not open to feedback or to occasionally having their actions subject to review or to being responsive to changes in circumstances, then they are not learning from experience. Admins are significantly protected under this policy, but it is not to the point of being immune from comment about the use of their discretion just because some do not consider it significantly problematic enough yet. The idea is to improve and resolve in the early stage rather than wait until it is too late or extreme (by which time the inevitable complaint will be "wish I had a better chance to improve before I developed this habit or got tot his point"). Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:03, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, the message you get when you're blocked says how to appeal, whether or not the admin adds the template. MediaWiki:Blockedtext --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:57, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- If a block is bad, it should not matter if the blocked editor wants to be unblocked or not - if someone goes into jail for stealing stuff in a shop, but turns out to be innocent - it then does not matter whether the person wants to go back to that shop, however, the person should be taken out of jail - here the situation could be that someone is innocent and blocked, but we leave the person guilty because the person may not want to go back to editing (is it me, or could there be BLP issues here ...). If an editor, or a group of editors, think that a block was completely wrong, communication with the blocking admin and/or a community discussion on AN or AN/I (the latter with notification to the blocking admin) is the way forward. That does not mean that the blocking admin is a bad admin - it can just be that a block was applied mistakenly. --Dirk Beetstra T C 17:24, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Does anyone think we should turn this into a full RFC? - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 18:42, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- Should we add "If you want to edit an article, you may click the 'Edit' button" too? It seems like we have instructions for every possible scenario these days. causa sui (talk) 19:01, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, this is in response to a recent debate in just such an WP:AN discussion over whether or not third parties could begin an unblock request/block review. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 19:06, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- How can that even be a question? The fact that they asked the question starts it. Are we to the point where we are going to "procedural decline" a request to review a sysop action because the request was not 'filed' through the 'proper channels' and according to 'procedure'? Should I go speedy delete WP:BURO right now? --causa sui (talk) 19:16, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- *shrug* I have no idea how that idea came up, but it did. And if it's uncontentious to say this, then why not say it? - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 19:24, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- How can that even be a question? The fact that they asked the question starts it. Are we to the point where we are going to "procedural decline" a request to review a sysop action because the request was not 'filed' through the 'proper channels' and according to 'procedure'? Should I go speedy delete WP:BURO right now? --causa sui (talk) 19:16, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, this is in response to a recent debate in just such an WP:AN discussion over whether or not third parties could begin an unblock request/block review. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 19:06, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- Third parties may request a review of a block right after they occur (and often does happen), but they CANNOT request unblock on behalf of someone else, or a review down the road (✉→BWilkins←✎) 19:34, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- Is that to avoid having a sock or meat puppet try to unblock the puppetmaster? - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 19:43, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I do believe a full RFC is appropriate for this topic. Penyulap ☏ 19:52, 27 Jun 2012 (UTC)
Should the above proposed change, "A third party may request the review of a block at the Administrators' noticeboard," or some variation of that change, be added to this policy per the above discussion? - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 19:56, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- I would have thought we already do this under the pseudo-policy of "discuss/debate this at the various appropriate forums" like WP:AN, ANI, the user's talk, RP:RFU etc. It's almost like we are opening an RfC on the idea of being able to open an RfC on a user's block, which answers its own question.. Not that I begrudge such an RfC being opened.... S.G.(GH) ping! 22:45, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- We do and we don't. Since the official policy doesn't say it one way or the other, some people say "you can do this, no doubt" and some people say "you can't do this at all." Furthermore, it'd be good to establish the "where" and "how" of doing this so that we have a consistent process, and we need to set it up to avoid abuse, especially sock abuse. Above, I proposed a specific variation:
- An editor in good standing may request that another editor be unblocked by starting a review of the block on the Administrator's Noticeboard. Editors are cautioned that making an excessive number of these requests against consensus may be considered disruption, and may lead to community sanctions against them. No request should be made in this fashion if the blocked editor has an ongoing unblock request on their own talk page, nor if the blocked editor has stated that they do not wish to be unblocked at the present time.
- "In good standing" is the critical phrase. I'd be willing to edit it further to block out non-autoconfirmed editors, and to especially exclude people who were also sanctioned in the same dispute as the blocked editor. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 23:15, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
I see adding this phrase as an invitation to a bottomless pit. First, if a blocked editor wants to be unblocked, he can say so. If for some reason his Talk page rights are revoked, there are procedures for protesting that as well. If he doesn't want it badly enough to follow the procedures, that's his decision. So, what we would really be doing by adding this sentence is inviting everyone to evaluate administrative decisions just because someone thinks it was wrong. As if we don't already have enough procedural quagmires as it is, this would add yet another layer. Moreover, even without the sentence, editors can trot over to ANI or AN and complain about the harshness of some block or some ban or some something. But, with this change, we would send out explicit invitations to do so. Don't we have better things to do?--Bbb23 (talk) 23:47, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- That's a fair point for sure, it would lead to more requests if people knew they could actually make a request. However, this has less to do with the blocked editor. It has a lot more to do with the whole community, not standing around the 'corpse' of their long time buddy. (ok a corpse is dramatic, but haven't you ever seen a good editor lost ?) you may well know what to do, but other good editors do not.
- A good editor often has some justifiable pride, or at least self respect, and if they believe they have been badly mistreated by a blocking admin, it might be more about the editor forced to bow down to someone he despises and less about the editor having respect for the wider community. When the block has clear support and backing by the community, demonstrated by many individual voices, rather than assumption alone, doesn't that make the block stronger ? If anyone can say 'that was a good block' then regular editors can show support for our admins, as it is now, it's not as strong.
- " editors can trot over to ANI or AN " well, it took me 12 months to find that out. Seeing great editors banned has a demoralising effect upon me, if the system presents itself as unjust, or at least unaccountable, it's not possible to have as much faith in it. If we could give everyone more of a say, we'd give everyone more faith in the system. Penyulap ☏ 01:07, 28 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- I would like to propose an alternative version:
- Third party requests for block review
- Third parties may request a review of a block at WP:AN/I. Third parties considering such a request are advised that:
- as with any other dispute, before escalating to a noticeboard discussion should first be attempted with the other party to the dispute, in this case the blocking admin
- Admins are afforded a reasonable amount of discretion when it comes to their use of the tools, review is not meant to second guess that discretion and should be reserved for cases where the block was clearly against policy or is extremely unreasonable in length
- during the course of a block review, it is likely that the history of the requesting editor will be examined and they should be wary of WP:BOOMERANG
- Engaging in Sockpuppetry or Block Evasion to submit a request for review is unlikely to be positively received, and may result in additional blocks and/or block extensions. A blocked editor who requests such a review should make the request on their talk page, or in the case talk page access is revoked, through either the Unblock Ticket Request System or Arbcom ban appeals subcommittee, and should not submit it in the guise of a third party request
- I think the above would make it clear enough that block reviews should only be requested in the case of really bad blocks and would discourage excessive block review requests. Monty845 00:45, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- Heh, you have a lot more faith than I do in the ability of some to read past the first sentence. Looks like a multi-factorial test one might find in a legal decision - not that it isn't admirably written and sensible on its face - it's just a lot of words to wade through. I stick with my simple "no".--Bbb23 (talk) 00:51, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- I like it with some small changes. Edit to the first sentence - "In certain cases, third parties may request..." Then replace the second sentence with "Third parties are advised that such requests must be made civilly and in good faith, or risk sanctions of their own." Other than that, there might be some minor copy-editing, though I don't have time right this second to fine-comb it. But I like it. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 01:05, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- It does raise a valid point that blocked editors would exhaust their sock supply / internet cafe visits / friends in a venue where they are expected, rather than in article space. Penyulap ☏ 01:10, 28 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- I dunno, the two aren't mutually exclusive.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:22, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- I don't understand, what I mean to say is, that it creates a sock laundry somewhere away from article space or wherever else they would go, so it is like you say, a price we pay, it does create an extra can of worms, but some fishermen like worms :) and so we get a stronger community by people being able to say 'and stay out !!!!!' or 'just you hang on a moment !!' bringing the admins and editors closer together, and addressing editor retention as well. Penyulap ☏ 01:37, 28 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- I dunno, the two aren't mutually exclusive.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:22, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- It does raise a valid point that blocked editors would exhaust their sock supply / internet cafe visits / friends in a venue where they are expected, rather than in article space. Penyulap ☏ 01:10, 28 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- The fundamental difficulty with permitting – in all but the most limited circumstances – involutary and unsolicited reviews of one's blocks at the instigation of a third party is that sometimes the third party is a jackass.
- Suppose that I've been blocked. I figure that I'm too pissed off by the situation to deal with it at the moment, and decide to get a good night's sleep. Twelve hours later, I return to Wikipedia calm and refreshed, willing and able to marshal a coherent and rational argument. I discover that in my absence a third party has taken up my cause, and fought a bitter and acrimonious battle on AN/I while I slept. (The third party may have a previous history with the admin in question, or be a POV-pushing partisan in an area where I edit, or just generally like to stir shit up on noticeboards. They may be acting entirely in good faith, but just be incompetent or overly emotional.) My case gets lost in an inconclusive mess of mutual accusations of bad faith and bickering over tangential issues.
- No matter what follows, any appeal I might make has been tainted by the original third-party request. The noticeboards will already be fatigued by my issue; I won't have the opportunity to present my defence to a fresh audience. Not only do I have to respond to questions about my own conduct, but I also have to distance myself from my overzealous supporter(s). What could have been a viable unblock request instead gets closed as 'no consensus'.
- I think all experienced Wikipedia editors have been in situations where they've thought of another user "I think you're right, but it would be sooo much easier to agree with you if you knew when to shut up." The well-meaning but inept would be problem enough; throw in the third-party busybodies with their own independent axes to grind and you're asking for real trouble. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 02:11, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- This. Oh, so very This. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 02:30, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- oh god I know where you are coming from there, being, you know, myself. So half the time I'm like should I stick up for this poor editor here, at the risk of making it ten times worse ? like ani right now, I think someone talks too much and said so, bad move right there, me, telling someone else they talk too much ? open my talkpage archive and crash your browser, my archive killed miszabot, twice, so I don't think there will be support there.
- Maybe a user can leave a note on their talkpage, that they intend to deal with it, or a limit to say 'only after a week' or a week after the last comment or some such. Penyulap ☏ 02:37, 28 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- This. Oh, so very This. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 02:30, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- Question. Are we discussing third party requests in which the third party has already approached the blocking admin? Did I miss that part of the discussion? No snark intended, I looked and could not see where this had been mentioned. Personally, I have no problems discussing blocks I've made. To a point, of course. Watching recent changes I could make a couple dozen blocks a week (or more on occasion). Being interrogated over even a fraction of those could be tiring, but I'm always willing. Tiderolls 02:41, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think you'd need to address the block at all, to establish a consensus, it has to be reasonably put forward, and as you made the block, that's the same as say the original editor who put text in an article, it's a given that you support. The only difference might be the level of consensus required, but in clear cases that's easy. 99% of blocks are a no-brainer anyway. Penyulap ☏ 11:49, 28 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- Support Generally speaking, I don't see why not. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:43, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- Comment Would a reasonable compromise be to require more than one third-party editor in such a request? That would make it slightly harder to bring dilatory requests for unblock. Sort of like requiring a 'second'. -- Avanu (talk) 04:49, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- What sort of mechanic would there be for finding a person to second the request without it rewarding canvasing? Monty845 05:39, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think that this would be a good idea, per TenOfAllTrades above, and simply because if the blocked user does not want to contest the block themselves there is no reason to waste the time of others and produce drama about it. Sandstein 05:43, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- Comment Many old-timers will tell you that third parties have been requesting unblocks, block reviews—and different variations of those—at AN and AN/I for years. These often happen when a person is mentoring somebody that has been blocked. I think IAR may be sufficient in this case without adding additional wording. 64.40.54.121 (talk) 07:00, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- the price we have been paying in editor retention is too high for keeping this 'secret knowledge', took me more than a year to realise that there is no defined process for a third party unblock, I even made a graphic for my tp as part of the illogic of this secret knowledge. Penyulap ☏ 12:05, 28 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- Unnecessary: Any admin action can be reviewed in this manner. I don't see any reason to explicitly call blocks out.—Kww(talk) 10:46, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- BWilkins says "they CANNOT request unblock on behalf of someone else, or a review down the road" I think there should be clarity on the issue. Penyulap ☏ 12:09, 28 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- It's a wiki. Yes, there should be more clarity on the issue. I agree with Penyulaps point about editor retention and with IP 64.40.54.121 — except that additional wording probably is needed, to make it clear that anybody can initiate a review on ANI. It has been the case for years that we all have this right, but you see how it took Penyulap 12 months to find out he could even post on AN and ANI? IAR is indeed not enough; what do newbies know about IAR? For those who fear opening the floodgates to "inept" block reviews: Wikipedia doesn't operate on the hierarchic principle "I'm clueful; you're inept; s/he's a jackass". If you start a review and your argument is without merit, it'll either be snowed under or ignored, and you will hopefully have learned something; if it has merit, other people will post in the thread to agree or protest, and depending on consensus it'll either end with an unblock or not. Why should WP:BLOCK call for an extra layer of bureaucracy and rule creep, by (implicitly) saying that you need to ask first? Only admins can block and unblock, but it's certainly not the case that only admins can review stuff on ANI. Be bold: just review. That is the principle that should be inserted into the block policy, for information; because it's unjust that only the wp savvy and the habitués should be aware that ANI is there and that this is one of the ways you can use it.
- Please don't let's hear any more about ineptness and jackasses. Jackasses are a problem in all wikipedia processes; we get lots of foolish article edits, and still we allow anybody to post them; people don't have to ask permission first, because it's the encyclopedia anybody can edit. We get many inept FAC nominations, and we still don't have any rule preventing people from posting them. For that matter, ANI itself is clogged up with posts asking admins to block the guy the poster is in conflict with because "he was rude to me by saying my edit was bad". Why should the particular matter of third-party block reviews be elitist and newbie-unfriendly, when we normally strive to keep all our processes free of such thinking, and we normally put up with the (considerable) inconveniences resulting from ignorance or stubbornness? It's still a wiki.
- I'll try to formulate suitable informational wording in an hour or two, when I get home, unless somebody gets in there before me (as I'm rather hoping they will). Bishonen | talk 12:20, 28 June 2012 (UTC).
- awesome. here is the link to my archive which would be hard to find otherwise, I'll find the userpage I posted the templates at as well, maybe it's of interest as an illustration or for study, of for humour :) Penyulap ☏ 13:57, 28 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- here is the discussion, and the history of the user talkpage. Penyulap ☏ 14:00, 28 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- awesome. here is the link to my archive which would be hard to find otherwise, I'll find the userpage I posted the templates at as well, maybe it's of interest as an illustration or for study, of for humour :) Penyulap ☏ 13:57, 28 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- Seriously Blocks are only to be undone when they are found to be a) policy non-compliant, or b) the editor submits a WP:GAB-compliant unblock. Admins are trusted to be impartial, and there are often more "background" things that 3rd parties cannot be/are not aware of. Admins are also trusted to implement any blocks using the same logic. WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a valid reason to request someone else's unblock, and wasting the communities time by reviewing blocks needlessly is indeed a waste. The only time a third party should go to ANI/AN to request a review is when a) they themselves understand the related policy, and b) its policy non-compliant. That is why it's usually an admin who opens up 3rd party reviews. Allowing a 3rd party to actually place an unblock template is an abuse, because it's clearly non GAB-compliant (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:26, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- There's two situations we should be looking at. 1) The block was appropriate or 2) the block wasn't. If the block was appropriate, the only person who should be able to request an unblock is the blocked editor. In that, they can explain whether they understand the reasons for block and changes they intend to make, i.e. a WP:GAB compliant block request, as per Bwilkins above. If the block was not appropriate, a case can be made (at any time), currently at AN or ANI. This is a perfectly normal review of admin actions, as kww said above. I'm a little unsure as to where the confusion lies. WormTT(talk) 12:36, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- I think the confusion is because both Penyulap and Avanu have had wrists slapped regarding this? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:41, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- I guess I should watch AN/ANI more! WormTT(talk) 12:45, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- Hey, BWilkins... when exactly was this wrist slapping that you are talking about? Strange that you should make a comment like that when I haven't even seen the evidence to support it. I don't even know anything about Penylap except via this request, and the third-party request that started all this wasn't even started by *either* of us, it was started by an editor named Arcandam, and I actually have no idea what their motivation was for requesting the unblock, except I assume it seemed like a bad block. I was unaware at that time that a block had even taken place. So, please enlighten us with this "wrist slapping" that we supposedly endured and why it supposedly happened, because as far as I can tell that never happened. -- Avanu (talk) 22:38, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- Nothing in my comments should be interpreted as allowing third-parties to actually use {{unblock}}. I just consider my blocks to be reviewable at standard forums.—Kww(talk) 13:35, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- I guess I should watch AN/ANI more! WormTT(talk) 12:45, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- I think the confusion is because both Penyulap and Avanu have had wrists slapped regarding this? (✉→BWilkins←✎) 12:41, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- I'm unsure where the confusion lies, too. Bwilkins. Was anything in your post meant to contradict anything in mine? Because I don't see that it does. As for {{unblock}}, I haven't addressed it; obviously, it's not allowed to be placed by third parties. I'm discussing review on AN/ANI, and I think there should be something about it in the policy. Wasting the community's time by reviewing blocks needlessly is a waste of time, yes; so is dealing with inappropriate article edits; so is fixing inept FAC nominations. Should we make those and a host of other stuff permission-only, too? (Rhetorical question.) We waste a lot of time here. It can't be helped, it's a wiki. Bishonen | talk 13:51, 28 June 2012 (UTC).
- I think Kww puts it in an interesting way: "I just consider my blocks to be reviewable at standard forums." From my perspective, this proposal is to clearly and explicitly say that any admin's blocks are reviewable by the community at AN or AN/I. And block-evading, excessively time-wasting, or pointy block review requests should be treated like any other disruptions at those forums. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 14:07, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- I've now changed Avanu's proposed wording from
- If an editor feels a block has been improperly issued, they can ask for that decision to be reviewed. See Appealing a block for instructions. Administrators are able to "unblock" a user when they feel the block is unwarranted or no longer appropriate.
- to
- If an editor feels a block has been improperly issued, they can can initiate a review of that block on WP:ANI. Administrators are able to "unblock" a user when they feel the block is unwarranted or no longer appropriate.
- It probably does need some instructions added, and they may be thorny to formulate without too much instruction creep. Please feel free to tweak etc. But the link to Appealing a block really wasn't helpful. The instructions on that page are for the blocked user, and would surely mislead a third party into placing an unblock template on the blocked user's page. Bishonen | talk 14:19, 28 June 2012 (UTC).
- I feel that at the moment, the phrase 'third party' is required somewhere in a proposal, to counter the overwhelming first party focus of the docs/policy/guidelines/templates. unless it's the title of the section, sorry, I wasn't clear on that. Penyulap ☏ 14:39, 28 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- We could just take Bishonen's version and correct "an editor" to "a third-party editor." - Jorgath (talk) (contribs) 14:41, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- How about a implied permission via a cautionary statement like: "Third-party editors should take care in filing an unblock request for another editor to ensure that the unblock is desired or warranted." -- Avanu (talk) 15:03, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- Both Jorgath's and Avanu's suggestions sound fine to me. Bishonen | talk 15:17, 28 June 2012 (UTC).
- I feel that at the moment, the phrase 'third party' is required somewhere in a proposal, to counter the overwhelming first party focus of the docs/policy/guidelines/templates. unless it's the title of the section, sorry, I wasn't clear on that. Penyulap ☏ 14:39, 28 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- Comment. Seems like a lot of folks have dived into solution mode. Where is the clear definition of the problem that this solution is intended to solve along with practical examples of where it would be helpful. I'm not seeing it in this discussion, just a lot of ideas and someone diving in and amending a policy page. Leaky Caldron 14:45, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- I think the general idea among supporters of this is that since we operate on consensus anyway, there should be no reason that another, perhaps more experienced editor, couldn't file an unblock request on behalf of someone. The decision would still be made by an impartial admin or by a group of editors under the rules of consensus. The worry is that people will be encouraged to file dilatory requests instead of just leaving it alone. -- Avanu (talk) 15:03, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- Is this going to be implemented by a narrow consensus on this page or via an RFC as mentioned somewhere above? Leaky Caldron 15:15, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- This is a talkpage RfC, please see these instructions. Penyulap even advertised it on ANI. Though if this drags out, I guess it would be even better to move his announcement to AN. He omitted calling it "RfC" in the header, that's all. I've put that in. (Please nobody try telling me it's obligatory to use the template provided on the RfC page. It isn't.) Bishonen | talk 15:38, 28 June 2012 (UTC).
- I had no idea it was the RFC and there is discussion above about whether it requires an RFC. This is a significant policy. Rather than relying on page lurking can I suggest that the community is informed via MediaWiki:Watchlist-details. The RFC on WP:V changes fell foul of precisely this failure to communicate to the wider community last year. Not everyone with a view hangs out at WP:ANI, WP:CENT etc. Leaky Caldron 15:52, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- This is a talkpage RfC, please see these instructions. Penyulap even advertised it on ANI. Though if this drags out, I guess it would be even better to move his announcement to AN. He omitted calling it "RfC" in the header, that's all. I've put that in. (Please nobody try telling me it's obligatory to use the template provided on the RfC page. It isn't.) Bishonen | talk 15:38, 28 June 2012 (UTC).
- Is this going to be implemented by a narrow consensus on this page or via an RFC as mentioned somewhere above? Leaky Caldron 15:15, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- I think the general idea among supporters of this is that since we operate on consensus anyway, there should be no reason that another, perhaps more experienced editor, couldn't file an unblock request on behalf of someone. The decision would still be made by an impartial admin or by a group of editors under the rules of consensus. The worry is that people will be encouraged to file dilatory requests instead of just leaving it alone. -- Avanu (talk) 15:03, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- Page lurking? As I mentioned, Penyulap advertised it on ANI. Here. That's how I found out about it, and I should have thought most of the others who have commented here, too. It looks like quite a few people noticed it. Anyway, Jorgath has now asked for it to be put on the watchlists. We'll have to see if it's considered important enough for that. Bishonen | talk 18:49, 28 June 2012 (UTC).
- I looked at the nav template at AN and advertised on any board I thought is involved in blocking, however, given that this effects everyone (Newbies, experienced editors who have conflicting views, and editor retention) I agree that it should be suggested for the watchlist. Penyulap ☏ 03:32, 29 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- I tend to think this is unnecessary. Currently, a third party can ask for review if they think the admin's actions were inappropriate, out of policy, mistaken or abuse. We see this from time to time as it is, and I support them for even the most borderline cases. This is how we develop consensus on what is block-worthy, and how long of a block is too long. On the other side, if it just a simple "I've learned my lesson, I won't do it again" unblock, then ANI isn't needed, as there is already a process in place and typically the same admin won't respond twice, and multiple requests for unblock (to a point) are generally tolerated. And yes, occassionally, I see 3rd parties asking for review for another editor and present a compelling case, enough so that it is considered there at AN or ANI. My fear is that this policy change would be easy to abuse by some who don't like admins in general, to where blocks are constantly being second guessed, become a source for unnecessary drama, while not actually accomplishing the goal of avoiding bad blocks. There is a fine line between being fully accountable, and having to explain every block action you do that an editor just disagrees with but is otherwise within policy, and this would allow that. Since we already have reviews of questionable blocks at ANI, I don't see the need to change the policy in this overly general way. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © 19:24, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think anyone has suggested that the request requires a response, wouldn't it sit and go stale like anything else that has no merit, or provoke discussion like anything else does. The primary concerns in raising the issue is twofold, the prevailing confusion that it cannot be done / can be done, as mentioned many times here, and the fact that it can't be found. I searched high and low for it. Looking for a howto in the templates the policies the guidelines, zip. Nada. Nothing. There are some who know how the system works, old timers and experienced editors, and clearly I see in this discussion that they do not agree if it is even allowed. The policy may well be laid out in documents somewhere else however, it would be nice if we could all be clued in on this, so that we can all agree. I should think this page is a lovely place to put such guidance. Penyulap ☏ 02:41, 29 Jun 2012 (UTC)
- No. Instruction creep that creates the impression that the only way to get review of a block is on WP:AN. If I am blocked and want to call the attention of another administrator who is familiar with the particulars and history of the case, I will do that. Having it in the policy suggests that people will 'procedural decline' requests to review a block because they weren't 'filed through the proper channels'. If we aren't intending to restrict block reviews to WP:AN, then this adds nothing to the policy. causa sui (talk) 19:36, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- Example follow up on my comment above There are a lot of good blocks and a lot of bad blocks and certainly the bad blocks need to be reviewed. My concern is that if we start defining if/when a third party can ask for an unblock, we limit ourselves to only those specific criteria. Here is an example from a year ago when I—as a third party—asked for a block review for somebody else.
- 67.18.92.167 (talk · contribs) asked for an unblock here
- This was a rangeblock, so I—as a third party—asked for a review at AN
- The original blocking admin unblocked the range
- If we specifically define if/when a third party can ask for a review, I might not have been able to get that user/range unblocked. That is my concern. 64.40.54.97 (talk) 22:15, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- That is a proper and valid concern, it is important not to narrow the path to asking for a 3PU, we should include that in the language used. Until now, there has been no path or guidance for editors looking for 3pu's, either how, or if they can be done. I'm uncertain how to resolve this single valid concern with the possibility mentioned above by one editor that the person making the 3rd party request might be a jackass :) so I'll leave it to someone else to incorporate, or wait until another editor mentions it as well. As it is, with a clear path now laid out, possibly it is less of a concern ? Penyulap ☏ 03:25, 29 Jun 2012 (UTC)
Summary so far and proposal
(see main section above) Editors sometimes see someone else blocked and feel that the block was unjust. New editors especially who are looking for guidance on what to do cannot find it. Experienced editors, some who have been on wikipedia for many years, disagree whether or not a third party is allowed to request a review. There has not yet been any suggestion to add text to the policy page to prevent a third party request for a review. The following text, suggested by a few editors above, has been proposed. Penyulap ☏ 03:20, 29 Jun 2012 (UTC)
Section title Third party request for unblocking
"If a third-party editor feels a block has been improperly issued, they can can request a review of that block on AN or ANI. Administrators are able to "unblock" a user when they feel the block is unwarranted or no longer appropriate."