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::It reminds me of the period when the Soviet Union fell and the intelligence archives started being opened up for Western journalists. Intelligence experts warned people not to trust the archives because the spies had had to justify their existence to their bosses by writing nonsensical reports. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</sup></small> 19:57, 1 May 2014 (UTC) |
::It reminds me of the period when the Soviet Union fell and the intelligence archives started being opened up for Western journalists. Intelligence experts warned people not to trust the archives because the spies had had to justify their existence to their bosses by writing nonsensical reports. [[User:SlimVirgin|SlimVirgin]] <small><sup>[[User_talk:SlimVirgin|(talk)]]</sup></small> 19:57, 1 May 2014 (UTC) |
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:::That's certainly true. Many times I have seen posts by on-staff editors that are so trivial, so nit-picky, yet requiring significant editor time to vet, that I was left shaking my head. That's sort of part of the general problem with paid editing, that it expends volunteer time, diverts resources that can be better spent in other areas (such as adding more consequential information to those same articles), and of course requires discussions like this one! [[User:Coretheapple|Coretheapple]] ([[User talk:Coretheapple|talk]]) 20:08, 1 May 2014 (UTC) |
Revision as of 20:08, 1 May 2014
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Sources on conflict of interest
- Davis, Michael and Stark, Andrew (eds.). Conflict of Interest in the Professions, University of Oxford Press, 2001.
- Krimsky, Sheldon. "The Ethical and Legal Foundations of Scientific 'Conflict of Interest'", in Trudo Lemmings and Duff R. Waring (eds.), Law and Ethics in Biomedical Research: Regulation, Conflict of Interest, and Liability, University of Toronto Press, 2006.
- Lo, Bernard and Field, Marilyn J. (eds.). Conflict of Interest in Medical Research, Education, and Practice, National Academies Press, 2009.
- Stark, Andrew. Conflict of Interest in American Public Life, Harvard University Press, 2003.
Louise Glover on Wikipedia
When signing up to wikipedia I was on the belief that wikipedia was a truthful source of information. When I googled Louise Glover, the information that I got from Louiseglover.com did not match what I found on wikipedia... so I attempted to change it, to match what this person says themselves. Wikipedia changed it back, saying that my changes resembles someone elses. I dont know what they mean by this ??
As a journalist when searching for info regarding Louise Glover I could not find anything about her career from the last 4 years. Whats going on ??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Matthew1416 (talk • contribs) 17:53, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- You should take this to WP:Conflict of interest noticeboard. The experienced editors who reverted both you and another new editor seem to think you have a conflict of interest. The edits apparently struck them as promotional. I know you might be shocked by this, but there are many firms and people who try to promote their products or careers on Wikipedia. Since we are an encyclopedia rather than an advertising site, we try to stop this promotion. Smallbones(smalltalk) 18:04, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Also keep in mind that while we do allow a person's own claims to be used as a reference, we are very careful how that is used. The fact is that we try to verify all information on Wikipedia through reliable sources, and a person can't always be reliable when making claims about themselves. One of the criteria for using a person's self-published information for their own biography is that "
it is not unduly self-serving
" (that is actually the first criterion in the list). If other editors feel that the information you changed was promotional then it violates that criterion
- Also keep in mind that while we do allow a person's own claims to be used as a reference, we are very careful how that is used. The fact is that we try to verify all information on Wikipedia through reliable sources, and a person can't always be reliable when making claims about themselves. One of the criteria for using a person's self-published information for their own biography is that "
- I also wanted to clear up one misconception. You should not assume that Wikipedia is a "truthful source of information". That may sound strange coming from someone like myself who has volunteered a lot of time to this project for more than seven years but it's a fact. Wikipedia never claims to be a truthful source, nor does it even try to be truthful. There's a reason that Wikipedia article can't use Wikipedia itself as a reference. Wikipedia is an aggregate, it's an accumulation of information derived from sources outside of the project. Any information you find can only be trusted as far as the sources used to verify that information. If the sources used for verification are unreliable, or absent, you certainly should not trust the information you read.
- My advice to you, as a journalist, if you are using Wikipedia for research, is to only use the information in one of our articles as an idea. Don't rely on it though. What if an article was recently vandalized to include something slanderous or nonsense? The most useful thing you can get out of an article is to look at what it is using for references and track down those references yourself. The references should be written by a reliable analyst who will have something you can actually use for information. Consider Wikipedia less of a source of info, and more of a bibliography. -- Atama頭 18:41, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
Problems caused by "billable hours" editing
I've been noticing this for the last couple of years but realized only recently that "billable hours" are probably the cause.
A paid editor arrives at the talk page, requests something impossible or impenetrable, or points out something trivial that you're surprised they even noticed (a spelling mistake in the third sentence of the fifth section). There's a bit of discussion and the edit takes place or is turned down. Three months later, they arrive asking for almost the same thing, or they offer a new list of sources, or they make the edit that was turned down, though they know they'll be reverted. This can go on for months or years.
If editors keep responding to the requests, it takes up a lot of volunteer time with fruitless discussion. The paid editor often absents himself after his first few posts while the volunteers are left to argue. I used to wonder in some cases (when it was an employee of a contentious company) whether it was deliberate disruption.
But since reading about this issue on the mailing list, I can see that paid editors simply need to justify their existence to their employers: "searched for sources: 12 hours; posted three comments on the talk page and replied to concerns: two hours; made two edits that were reverted: one hour," etc. If they don't make these posts, they have nothing to write in their reports for the employer. So the employer ends up paying for pointless posts, which volunteers feel obliged to respond to at the cost of precious time and good relationships with other editors.
Should we try to write something about this in the guideline – how to spot "billable-hours editing" and the best way to deal with it? Pinging Smallbones and Coretheapple. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:24, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Heh. That's interesting. I really need to get on the gravy train. What am I doing editing for nothing? Actually I'm not sure this represents the usual pattern of employment in the P.R. industry. On-staff p.r. people are salaried, so billable hours are not applicable. I'm not sure about the paid-editing mills, but don't they charge a flat rate per article? It would really be silly from the client perspective to pay someone per billable hour in such a wasteful and unproductive fashion. Coretheapple (talk) 19:39, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- If you look at the case I linked to above, that's exactly what has happening, to the tune of around $50,000 for a year of editing and a tiny number of edits.
- Even salaried people have to justify their existence. The head of PR for a company goes to a meeting organized by paid Wikipedians or a PR agency (one of those agencies that offer advice about how to handle WP) to convince her to take WP seriously. She assigns a staff member to edit WP. That staff member has to write reports to tell the PR head what's being done; that means the staff member has to post something on talk, at least, or there's nothing to tell. The head of PR, in turn, has to write reports to her boss showing that the staff member assigned to WP is actually doing something. It's all make-work.
- It reminds me of the period when the Soviet Union fell and the intelligence archives started being opened up for Western journalists. Intelligence experts warned people not to trust the archives because the spies had had to justify their existence to their bosses by writing nonsensical reports. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:57, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- That's certainly true. Many times I have seen posts by on-staff editors that are so trivial, so nit-picky, yet requiring significant editor time to vet, that I was left shaking my head. That's sort of part of the general problem with paid editing, that it expends volunteer time, diverts resources that can be better spent in other areas (such as adding more consequential information to those same articles), and of course requires discussions like this one! Coretheapple (talk) 20:08, 1 May 2014 (UTC)