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::I suppose I should make my own COI declaration here. Though I consider myself to be as strict as anybody on the paid editing question, my main concern is about commercial editing (i.e. for-profit firms or non-profits acting like for-profits) and I've never had much concern about the WIR program. I've been involved in [[WP:GLAM]] since before the very beginning, but off and on (more off). |
::I suppose I should make my own COI declaration here. Though I consider myself to be as strict as anybody on the paid editing question, my main concern is about commercial editing (i.e. for-profit firms or non-profits acting like for-profits) and I've never had much concern about the WIR program. I've been involved in [[WP:GLAM]] since before the very beginning, but off and on (more off). [[User:Wittylama]] may remember me as part of a long ago conversation about [[Mike Royko]] and a link to the [[Newberry Library]]. I've worked successfully with GLAM projects on the [[Delaware Art Museum]] and [[WP:Smart]]history, but not as a WIR and definitely not paid. I attended one of the first GLAM training sessions in NYC. To a lesser degree of involvement, I've attended many edit-a-thons, e.g. at the Smithsonian and the [[Chemical Heritage Foundation]] {{Ping|Mary Mark Ockerbloom}}. |
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:: [[User:Smallbones|Smallbones]]<sub>(<font color="cc6600">[[User talk:Smallbones|smalltalk]]</font>)</sub> 16:56, 9 May 2014 (UTC) |
Revision as of 17:01, 9 May 2014
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Sources on conflict of interest
- Davis, Michael and Stark, Andrew (eds.). Conflict of Interest in the Professions, University of Oxford Press, 2001.
- Krimsky, Sheldon. "The Ethical and Legal Foundations of Scientific 'Conflict of Interest'", in Trudo Lemmings and Duff R. Waring (eds.), Law and Ethics in Biomedical Research: Regulation, Conflict of Interest, and Liability, University of Toronto Press, 2006.
- Lo, Bernard and Field, Marilyn J. (eds.). Conflict of Interest in Medical Research, Education, and Practice, National Academies Press, 2009.
- Stark, Andrew. Conflict of Interest in American Public Life, Harvard University Press, 2003.
Louise Glover on Wikipedia
When signing up to wikipedia I was on the belief that wikipedia was a truthful source of information. When I googled Louise Glover, the information that I got from Louiseglover.com did not match what I found on wikipedia... so I attempted to change it, to match what this person says themselves. Wikipedia changed it back, saying that my changes resembles someone elses. I dont know what they mean by this ??
As a journalist when searching for info regarding Louise Glover I could not find anything about her career from the last 4 years. Whats going on ??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Matthew1416 (talk • contribs) 17:53, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- You should take this to WP:Conflict of interest noticeboard. The experienced editors who reverted both you and another new editor seem to think you have a conflict of interest. The edits apparently struck them as promotional. I know you might be shocked by this, but there are many firms and people who try to promote their products or careers on Wikipedia. Since we are an encyclopedia rather than an advertising site, we try to stop this promotion. Smallbones(smalltalk) 18:04, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Also keep in mind that while we do allow a person's own claims to be used as a reference, we are very careful how that is used. The fact is that we try to verify all information on Wikipedia through reliable sources, and a person can't always be reliable when making claims about themselves. One of the criteria for using a person's self-published information for their own biography is that "
it is not unduly self-serving
" (that is actually the first criterion in the list). If other editors feel that the information you changed was promotional then it violates that criterion
- Also keep in mind that while we do allow a person's own claims to be used as a reference, we are very careful how that is used. The fact is that we try to verify all information on Wikipedia through reliable sources, and a person can't always be reliable when making claims about themselves. One of the criteria for using a person's self-published information for their own biography is that "
- I also wanted to clear up one misconception. You should not assume that Wikipedia is a "truthful source of information". That may sound strange coming from someone like myself who has volunteered a lot of time to this project for more than seven years but it's a fact. Wikipedia never claims to be a truthful source, nor does it even try to be truthful. There's a reason that Wikipedia article can't use Wikipedia itself as a reference. Wikipedia is an aggregate, it's an accumulation of information derived from sources outside of the project. Any information you find can only be trusted as far as the sources used to verify that information. If the sources used for verification are unreliable, or absent, you certainly should not trust the information you read.
- My advice to you, as a journalist, if you are using Wikipedia for research, is to only use the information in one of our articles as an idea. Don't rely on it though. What if an article was recently vandalized to include something slanderous or nonsense? The most useful thing you can get out of an article is to look at what it is using for references and track down those references yourself. The references should be written by a reliable analyst who will have something you can actually use for information. Consider Wikipedia less of a source of info, and more of a bibliography. -- Atama頭 18:41, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
Problems caused by "billable hours" editing
I've been noticing this for the last couple of years but realized only recently that "billable hours" are probably the cause.
A paid editor arrives at the talk page, requests something impossible or impenetrable, or points out something trivial that you're surprised they even noticed (a spelling mistake in the third sentence of the fifth section). There's a bit of discussion and the edit takes place or is turned down. Three months later, they arrive asking for almost the same thing, or they offer a new list of sources, or they make the edit that was turned down, though they know they'll be reverted. This can go on for months or years.
If editors keep responding to the requests, it takes up a lot of volunteer time with fruitless discussion. The paid editor often absents himself after his first few posts while the volunteers are left to argue. I used to wonder in some cases (when it was an employee of a contentious company) whether it was deliberate disruption.
But since reading about this issue on the mailing list, I can see that paid editors simply need to justify their existence to their employers: "searched for sources: 12 hours; posted three comments on the talk page and replied to concerns: two hours; made two edits that were reverted: one hour," etc. If they don't make these posts, they have nothing to write in their reports for the employer. So the employer ends up paying for pointless posts, which volunteers feel obliged to respond to at the cost of precious time and good relationships with other editors.
Should we try to write something about this in the guideline – how to spot "billable-hours editing" and the best way to deal with it? Pinging Smallbones and Coretheapple. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:24, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- Heh. That's interesting. I really need to get on the gravy train. What am I doing editing for nothing? Actually I'm not sure this represents the usual pattern of employment in the P.R. industry. On-staff p.r. people are salaried, so billable hours are not applicable. I'm not sure about the paid-editing mills, but don't they charge a flat rate per article? It would really be silly from the client perspective to pay someone per billable hour in such a wasteful and unproductive fashion. Coretheapple (talk) 19:39, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- If you look at the case I linked to above, that's exactly what has happening, to the tune of around $50,000 for a year of editing and a tiny number of edits.
- Even salaried people have to justify their existence. The head of PR for a company goes to a meeting organized by paid Wikipedians or a PR agency (one of those agencies that offer advice about how to handle WP) to convince her to take WP seriously. She assigns a staff member to edit WP. That staff member has to write reports to tell the PR head what's being done; that means the staff member has to post something on talk, at least, or there's nothing to tell. The head of PR, in turn, has to write reports to her boss showing that the staff member assigned to WP is actually doing something. It's all make-work.
- It reminds me of the period when the Soviet Union fell and the intelligence archives started being opened up for Western journalists. Intelligence experts warned people not to trust the archives because the spies had had to justify their existence to their bosses by writing nonsensical reports. SlimVirgin (talk) 19:57, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- That's certainly true. Many times I have seen posts by on-staff editors that are so trivial, so nit-picky, yet requiring significant editor time to vet, that I was left shaking my head. That's sort of part of the general problem with paid editing, that it expends volunteer time, diverts resources that can be better spent in other areas (such as adding more consequential information to those same articles), and of course requires discussions like this one! Coretheapple (talk) 20:08, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
- "Even salaried people have to justify their existence." This is true. I've worked for salary before (I don't now) and even though I wasn't literally logging hours on a timesheet, I still needed to show that I was productive. (I ended up keeping a daily log of what I was working on, which officially was just to keep track of problems and solutions but unofficially was my way of showing that I wasn't slacking off each day.) And a salaried person who doesn't seem to be logging the hours you'd expect from an hourly person can appear to be abusing their situation and might be pressured to make up for that. So I could easily see that even someone not literally paid by the hour still has to show that they're putting in time on behalf of the client.
- Given all that, maybe it's not so much an issue of "billable hours" as it is "staying billable", or "logging billable work". It's just a matter of semantics, but keeping it as inclusive as possible to accommodate different situations may make it more useful for someone. I could see someone saying "this isn't hourly work so it doesn't apply" when in principle it still does. -- Atama頭 20:49, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
I support this in general, the only problem is how to get the proper wording into the guideline. As a simple attempt to start off that discussion, I'll suggest putting the following as the 2nd paragraph under "paid editing":
- Paid editors, especially those who are paid by the hour or submit "billable hours" to justify their pay, must respect the volunteer nature of the project and keep their discussions short. No volunteer editor should be subjected to long, tedious, or rambling discussions by somebody who is being paid by the hour to argue with them. Keep it short and to the point, otherwise you will likely be violating several Wikipedia guidelines and policies, e.g. WP:Tendentious editing, WP:Disruptive editing, WP:WikiBullying, or WP:Civility.
I'm sure somebody can come up with something better, but this might cover the basics. Smallbones(smalltalk) 01:00, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- @Smallbones: LOL, it's really blunt but I like it. :) -- Atama頭 02:43, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- I'd support something like that. Some suggested tweaks: "Paid editors, especially those who are paid by the hour, or who submit "billable hours" to justify their salaries, must respect the volunteer nature of the project and keep their discussions short. No volunteer editor should be subjected to long or repetitive discussions by someone who is being paid to argue with them," etc. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:11, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Though I appreciate the specific concern being raised, I do think that all editors (volunteer or not) benefit from not having to go through long, tediously rambling discussions, whether they originate from an editor paid by the hour, or not paid at all. So I would much prefer just emphasizing the problems with swamping any conversation, regardless of who is doing so. isaacl (talk) 02:54, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- It would be inappropriate for the text to be expanded to include talk page discussions in general. This is not the place for guidelines/suggestions beyond COI issues. Any such expansion of applicability would require discussion and consensus on other pages. I also consider it unlikely you would gain consensus to, effectively, censor talk page discussions. — Makyen (talk) 03:30, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Just something to bear in mind that matters discussed in this guideline may be redundant with others, and so in the interest of providing clear guidance, avoiding overlap may be desirable. The proposed text addition points out that overly-lengthy contributions can be in contravention with existing Wikipedia guidelines. I agree though that trying to curb them is difficult in practice. isaacl (talk) 03:45, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- @Isaacl: Theoretically the entire guideline is "redundant", since disruption from a COI editor is no different than disruption from any other editor. We don't even disallow COI editing itself. However, there are certain issues that are exacerbated by conflicts of interest, and that includes the issue of stretching out discussions to waste everyone's time. That's why it's being brought up here specifically. -- Atama頭 17:32, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, I think it is the paid aspect that provides incentive for discussion flooding. I suggest though that any revised wording not imply that the problem is limited to contributions by paid editors, or those with a conflict of interest. The ultimate question for these proposed changes, however, is what specific actions are being recommended? Without these, the proposal is somewhat moot. isaacl (talk) 18:15, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- I'll concede that. It's worth noting that this isn't restricted to COI editors only. The solution, as I see it, is to identify this behavior as tendentious editing and that the editor can be warned and possibly blocked for behavior seen as disruptive. Basically, this is a way for us to more easily note that a COI editor is being tendentious (by understanding a probable reason why they're being that way) and not let them get away with it. -- Atama頭 18:43, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Actually, I think it is the paid aspect that provides incentive for discussion flooding. I suggest though that any revised wording not imply that the problem is limited to contributions by paid editors, or those with a conflict of interest. The ultimate question for these proposed changes, however, is what specific actions are being recommended? Without these, the proposal is somewhat moot. isaacl (talk) 18:15, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- @Isaacl: Theoretically the entire guideline is "redundant", since disruption from a COI editor is no different than disruption from any other editor. We don't even disallow COI editing itself. However, there are certain issues that are exacerbated by conflicts of interest, and that includes the issue of stretching out discussions to waste everyone's time. That's why it's being brought up here specifically. -- Atama頭 17:32, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Just something to bear in mind that matters discussed in this guideline may be redundant with others, and so in the interest of providing clear guidance, avoiding overlap may be desirable. The proposed text addition points out that overly-lengthy contributions can be in contravention with existing Wikipedia guidelines. I agree though that trying to curb them is difficult in practice. isaacl (talk) 03:45, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- It would be inappropriate for the text to be expanded to include talk page discussions in general. This is not the place for guidelines/suggestions beyond COI issues. Any such expansion of applicability would require discussion and consensus on other pages. I also consider it unlikely you would gain consensus to, effectively, censor talk page discussions. — Makyen (talk) 03:30, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- @Smallbones: LOL, it's really blunt but I like it. :) -- Atama頭 02:43, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Regarding the original question on the best way to deal with overly-verbose contributions: unfortunately, as some of the recent threads at the administrators' incidents noticeboard illustrate, there are various editors who object to any action being taken to try to curb an editor from swamping conversation. This makes it hard to do anything if the editor in question stays sufficiently within the bounds of civil discourse and is not receptive to suggestions and advice from others. The "assume good faith" guideline, as useful as it is for encouraging collaboration, is unfortunately a hinderance when trying to deal with those who are unable to engage productive with the community. Other than continuing to try to engage the editors on their discussion pages, sadly I don't know what else can be done. isaacl (talk) 03:03, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
- Taking a page from the real world: meetings are more effective when clear criteria are established for the meeting's success, and the discussion is moderated. So what could help is more editors able to act as moderators, who would first guide the participants to set criteria to evaluate the subject under discussion, and then guide discussion. Once again, though, this requires the editors to be receptive to working together to find the best consensus solution. isaacl (talk) 03:52, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
2nd try
Incorporating suggestions from @Slim Virgin: and @Isaacl:, I think we might be able to make some progress:
- Paid editors, especially those who are paid by the hour, or who submit "billable hours" to justify their salaries, must respect the volunteer nature of the project and keep their discussions short. No editor should be subjected to long or repetitive discussions by someone who is being paid to argue with them. Any editor who refuses to accept a consensus against his or her position by arguing ad naseum will likely be violating several Wikipedia guidelines and policies, e.g. WP:Tendentious editing, WP:Disruptive editing, WP:WikiBullying, WP:Own or WP:Civility. Paid editors must not argue ad naseum.
Pinging @Coretheapple:, @Makyen: and @Atama: as well. Smallbones(smalltalk) 16:18, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
- I suggest ending the first sentence with "and keep discussions concise." Regarding the last sentence: it seems to repeat the immediately preceding sentence—perhaps it is unnecessary? isaacl (talk) 16:28, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
- I like this wording, with Isaacl's suggestions included. It doesn't say that this applies only to people with billable hours but does mention it. I agree that the last sentence is redundant (and I say this as someone who frequently has his own problems with redundant phrasing). And I agree that keeping discussion "concise", as in getting to the point quickly, is more important than keeping the discussion short. The point is to avoid a TLDR situation, and concision should accomplish that. -- Atama頭 16:36, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
this is fine with me:
- Paid editors, especially those who are paid by the hour, or who submit "billable hours" to justify their salaries, must respect the volunteer nature of the project and keep discussions concise. No editor should be subjected to long or repetitive discussions by someone who is being paid to argue with them. Any editor who refuses to accept a consensus against his or her position by arguing ad naseum will likely be violating several Wikipedia guidelines and policies, e.g. WP:Tendentious editing, WP:Disruptive editing, WP:WikiBullying, WP:Own or WP:Civility.
Smallbones(smalltalk) 16:47, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
- That's fine by me, Smallbones, thanks. SlimVirgin (talk) 18:24, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
- I'm adding it in right now. Smallbones(smalltalk) 19:14, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
How about explicitly kicking the confirmed abuser in the shin, e..g with a special template in the article talk page and user talk page, so that their employer may see their money wasted? Also, it will help us accumulate statistics about dishonest "page mills". Staszek Lem (talk) 19:18, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
- I am concerned about this on multiple levels. One, this change comes during discussions on the Deepak Chopra article when a declared COI editor was treated badly because he apparently wrote too much and was told by other, so-called volunteer editors, that they didn't have the time to read through his posts. I'm always concerned when changes are made to guidelines or policies during contentious discussions that would effectively allow an editor in that discussion to be sanctioned. Second, seems we are penalizing COI declared editors for something we see all the time in other-editor behaviour. So, we can write as much as we want as a none COI editor but a COI editor operates under editing restrictions which we don't have. I think this is very wrong, but in part because I'm very busy in real life this week, I won't say more.(Littleolive oil (talk) 22:21, 6 May 2014 (UTC))
- "
I'm always concerned when changes are made to guidelines or policies during contentious discussions that would effectively allow an editor in that discussion to be sanctioned.
" - What we're adding here wouldn't necessarily lead to sanctions. The COI guideline on its own isn't really enforceable (in the sense that people get blocked for having a COI), it's more of an aggregate of other guidelines and policies and presented through the prism of COI. As stated in the proposed text, it's when the editor violates WP:TE, WP:DE, WP:OWN, etc. that sanctions may be forthcoming.
- "
Second, seems we are penalizing COI declared editors for something we see all the time in other-editor behaviour.
" - I hate to tell you, but that is a good summary of the entire guideline. Your concern shouldn't be isolated to this section, it applies to everything that is already written. But as I said before, this guideline doesn't have any enforcement beyond what is already in other guidelines and policies. As long as a COI editor isn't engaged in the kind of behavior that other editors would be sanctioned for, they are fine. -- Atama頭 22:46, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
- "
- I am concerned about this on multiple levels. One, this change comes during discussions on the Deepak Chopra article when a declared COI editor was treated badly because he apparently wrote too much and was told by other, so-called volunteer editors, that they didn't have the time to read through his posts. I'm always concerned when changes are made to guidelines or policies during contentious discussions that would effectively allow an editor in that discussion to be sanctioned. Second, seems we are penalizing COI declared editors for something we see all the time in other-editor behaviour. So, we can write as much as we want as a none COI editor but a COI editor operates under editing restrictions which we don't have. I think this is very wrong, but in part because I'm very busy in real life this week, I won't say more.(Littleolive oil (talk) 22:21, 6 May 2014 (UTC))
The practice of overwhelming unpaid editors with length is the prime tactic of paid POV-pushers. See Deepak Chopra, mentioned above, and User:Hamilton83 on Jack Welch. I could find thousands more, but I decided just to mention the ones where I was the one overwhelmed by the disparity in fairness between volunteer and paid hours. Why do we let people do this to our volunteers, exactly? Hipocrite (talk) 12:33, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
GLAM
Just noting here that I swapped our "warts and all" example for GLAM, to emphasize the "mission-aligned" aspect:
- Old: "There may be benign examples of editors being paid – for example, a university asking you to write up its warts-and-all history."
- New: "There may be benign examples of editors being paid; for instance, Wikipedians collaborating with mission-aligned organizations such as galleries, libraries, archives and museums.
Hope that's okay. SlimVirgin (talk) 21:06, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
- That's an improvement. I like it. bobrayner (talk) 13:48, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
- Looks good to me too. I'm wondering whether it's a good time to do a complete paragraph or 2 on the Wikipedian-in-Residence (WIR) phenomenon. Too often, IMHO, folks use WIR to confuse the issues of Paid Advocacy, Paid Editing, Expert editing. I do really think that WIR programs are very good for the encyclopedia, but somehow WP:COI has been interpreted as being against WIR programs. See, e.g. User talk:Jimbo Wales for at least one example (and about 3 where some folks are sowing confusion). Pinging @FloNight: on this, and @Wittylama:
- We could clear this up simply by writing a good paragraph or 2 here. Smallbones(smalltalk) 14:25, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
WIR
- Thanks, Bob and Smalbones. I agree that a good paragraph or so on WIR would be very helpful. SlimVirgin (talk) 15:04, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, I am saddened by the way WiR projects are commonly cited in discussions around COI - not that they're claimed to be a problem, but that they're always mentioned so it get to eventually have a 'guilt by association' feeling to it... Wittylama 22:23, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks, Bob and Smalbones. I agree that a good paragraph or so on WIR would be very helpful. SlimVirgin (talk) 15:04, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
I'm not ready to propose specific wording here and think that other editors should outline what they'd like to see. But the main points I'd like to see are:
- with mission-aligned organizations, e.g. non-profits with their primary goal being education
- WIRs identify themselves on their User pages and in edit summary (e.g. starting with WIR)
- Work closely with appropriate WikiProject, e.g. WP:GLAM or WP:Medicine, and generally accept the project's advice
- Work to encourage other editors at the organization to properly contribute to Wikipedia
- The WIR and other paid editors in the org
- not including marketing or PR people in the organization
- not promoting attendance at a specific exhibition or to museum store or restaurant (the "commercial parts") of the org.
- not editing the main article on the org, but other related articles ok, e.g. not on the "XYZ Museum", but "History of the XYZ Museum" ok
- otherwise free to edit like any other editor, or on any talk page, as long as disclosure on User page and edit summary.
- make a good faith effort to learn and follow our policies and guidelines, especially those on COI and paid editing
- Wikipedia encourages this type of editing for mission-aligned orgs, especially when a WIR is involved.
Smallbones(smalltalk) 16:09, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
- I suppose I should make my own COI declaration here. Though I consider myself to be as strict as anybody on the paid editing question, my main concern is about commercial editing (i.e. for-profit firms or non-profits acting like for-profits) and I've never had much concern about the WIR program. I've been involved in WP:GLAM since before the very beginning, but off and on (more off). User:Wittylama may remember me as part of a long ago conversation about Mike Royko and a link to the Newberry Library. I've worked successfully with GLAM projects on the Delaware Art Museum and WP:Smarthistory, but not as a WIR and definitely not paid. I attended one of the first GLAM training sessions in NYC. To a lesser degree of involvement, I've attended many edit-a-thons, e.g. at the Smithsonian and the Chemical Heritage Foundation @Mary Mark Ockerbloom:.
- Smallbones(smalltalk) 16:56, 9 May 2014 (UTC)