Follow-up on Watchlist
Impressive marathon tagging effort! Logical next step? Include some form of boilerplate instructions at the top of Special:Watchlist so that User knows what to do with all the [[Image:...]] files that have suddenly sprung up – instructions at the very least for indicating that User took the photo last year on his/her holidays and User does license it under the GFDL. Doable? –Hajor 00:22, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- I've suggested that the next important step is to have a standard format and information set for every photo, where clearly marked is the photo credit, capture date (if known), location (if known), source (if applicable, such as a URL) and the copyright tag. Please see my proposal at the Wikipedia_talk:Image_description_page, and let me know what you think. It seems to be the next natural step in keeping tabs on the origin of images. --Jeff 19:04, May 31, 2004 (UTC)
Big problem?
I just realized a potentially big problem with marking these images. When the image is replaced, the image description doesn't change. Anthony DiPierro 18:22, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- The uploader is already (A) warned and (B) instructed to update the text. Is this sufficient? Martin 18:29, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- I guess...Though somehow I doubt most uploaders are going to follow those instruction/warnings. Anthony DiPierro 18:32, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I've tagged every "large" (over 300kb) image. --Imran 19:08, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
CopyrightedFreeUse
What is the msg:CopyrightedFreeUse supposed to be used for? Would the GPL apply? If not, can we make a tag for free non-GFDL licenses? Anthony DiPierro 14:53, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- I think so. --Imran 15:23, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)~
- We need to clarify the message then. When I tried to add the tag to Image:Info_bulb.png I got reverted by Eloquence who said: "wtf? gpl!=any use"
Anthony DiPierro 15:37, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- GPL is any use. It contains no restrictions as to who can use it or for what purpose. --Imran 18:23, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- That's not true. It has a copyleft requirement and an author credit requirement.—Eloquence 19:22, Feb 22, 2004 (UTC)
- The two aren't mutually exclusive, to use the image you have to meet certain conditions (credit, licencing) but you can use it for any purpose you want. The conditions don't limit the purpose (as for example fair use conditions do) so it classifies as "any use". --Imran 19:28, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- This is your interpretation. The phrase "for any purpose" is too vague to be a good characterization of the GPL. It must not be used on GPL licensed content.—Eloquence
- To quote what it actually defined as "where anyone is allowed to use an image", which clearly is covered by GPL by anyones interpretation. Also note that the primary point is to distinguish these from licences which prohibit commercial exploitation. --Imran 13:17, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Now that we have a tag for GPL the point is somewhat mooted. However, we should probably consider rewording this for the future. Maybe a good start would be what falls under this which doesn't fall under any other category? Then we can build a definition around that. Anthony DiPierro 14:34, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Btw, I discussed this matter at Wikipedia talk:Pictures from southwarkphotolibrary.co.uk details with Secretlondon, and we vaguelly agreed to blitz "CopyrightedFreeUse" as too vague anyway. Wander over there, read, opine, etc. Martin 23:07, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- "CopyrightedFreeUse" IS too vague. The question of interest is whether a given image is compatible with the GFDL. I.e. can it be distributed under the GFDL, which is only possible if it has a licence that grants all of the permissions of the GFDL. It the licence doesn't explicity grant permission to perform any particular act (e.g., making copies or creating derived works), then under copyright law you don't (unless in case of fair use) have permission. Remember that the image copyright is not the only thing that can be violated: if an image can't be used under the full terms of the GFDL, then adding the image to Wikipedia violates the licence of every contributer of text (since they have given only GFDL permissions, which only permits combining the work with other GFDL material. If it wasn't intended to work this way, Wikipedia would have chosen a less restrictive licence). I suggest an alternative tag "GFDL-Compatible". Goatherd 19:25, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- It would make sense to have some or all of:
- MediaWiki:GPL (perhaps link to [1] too)
- MediaWiki:LGPL (perhaps link to [2] too)
- MediaWiki:cc-by
- MediaWiki:cc-by-nd
- MediaWiki:cc-by-nd-nc
- MediaWiki:cc-by-nc
- MediaWiki:cc-by-nc-sa
- MediaWiki:cc-by-sa
- MediaWiki:cc-nd
- MediaWiki:cc-nd-nc
- MediaWiki:cc-nc
- MediaWiki:cc-nc-sa
- MediaWiki:cc-sa
- The various CC licenses should include the appropriate machine-readable meta-data too. I don't think mediawiki supports <a rel="license"> tags, but the RDF tags should work. Martin 15:39, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I'd say we don't need some of those cc licenses:
- No derivatives allowed!
- No commercial use allowed:
- Hmm, perhaps. I'll concentrate on the freer ones. Nevertheless, we do have images that are for non-commercial use only (hence MediaWiki:noncommercial), and we do have images that do not allow derivative works (various crown copyrights, for example). So I don't think these would be particularly worse than others. Also, peeople may wish to additionally license under some of these CC licenses. Also, I'm not sure to what extent cc-by-nc and cc-nc are viral - it may be that they don't prevent derivate commercial works. I'd have to check.
- As one example, Image:SOHO solar flare sun MPEG 20031026 eit 304.mpeg is effectively cc-by-nc. Martin 15:52, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- OK...You make good points. I guess it's OK to have these licenses, but the non-free ones (listed above) should only be used as additional licenses or in cases where "fair use" is acceptable. Anthony DiPierro 20:15, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Public domain
- FYI: email I just sent to Creative Commons
Hi.
I'm working on Wikipedia, where we're trying to get to grips with our huge array of images, and working on tagging them appropriately, both in human-readable and machine-readable forms. You can see how we're doing at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_copyright_tags
One problem we've run into is for public domain images: both images that have fallen into the public domain, and images that have been explicitly dedicated to the public domain.
Your site is clear enough about what I should do if I personally want to certify or dedicate an image to the public domain. However, I face the situation where *someone else* is claiming that an image is public domain. Should I direct them to use your "Public Domain Dedication" service?
My second question is for metadata: What metadata should I use to indicate that:
- An image is certified public domain.
- An image is dedicated to the public domain.
- The image is believed to be public domain, but it hasn't been formally certified as such (IE, disclaiming any warranty in case of errors).
Your site won't display the meta-data unless I personally dedicate something to the public domain, and it's not clear if I need different metadata for the three categories above.
Thanks, -Martin
- I got a response - need to act now :) Martin 01:03, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
Tag formats
Does anyone have any objections to my changing the format of the CC tags so that they read like this? Basically, a stack with the logo on top, followed by the two lines of text. Looks a bit neater, in my view, but I don't know if CC has specific rules for displaying its licenses. –Hajor 16:37, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Looks fine. Here are the Creative Commons Guidelines - do read. Martin 19:36, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the link; duly read. What I want to do appears to be well within their guidelines, so I'll get cracking. –Hajor 21:10, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Could someone come up with some standard text explaining tagging and asking users to do it, so that we can we just copy/paste it to uploader userpages if they aren't marking. --Imran 02:16, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- Would it be good to also edit the mediawiki page for the text on the "upload file" special page? Anyone know which one that is? Martin 20:49, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
- It is MediaWiki:Uploadtext. I made some changes to it already. Be careful with this - its HTML not wikimarkup, although it gets sent through the wikiparser for display. Morwen 20:50, Feb 25, 2004 (UTC)~
Could someone indicate on the page what message should accompany a picture taken from a web site of the US government? My belief is that all such material is really put into the public domain, but I'm not positive. Tempshill 21:43, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- This is wrt the ejector seat photo? The front page of that Holloman AF site links to a Privacy & Security notice, which says, "Information presented on the Holloman Home Page is considered public information and may be distributed or copied. Use of appropriate byline/photo/image credits is requested." Sounds solidly public domain. Personal approach? I'd mark it with {msg:PD} and add additional links to the original PDF and the Privacy & Security notice. And follow a similar strategy for any other images uploaded from US gov & mil sites. –Hajor 18:49, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The GFDL-compatibility issue is more complex. Firstly, none of the CC licenses are directly GFDL compatible, secondly, all of them are GFDL compatible in "aggregation" mode. So the issues is one of freeness, not GFDL compatibility. Martin 19:53, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- OK, noted. Ordering them by (perceived) freeness was a good idea. –Hajor 20:11, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Fair use
Do I have to add every image which is fair use to the Wikipedia:Fair_use page? The images I'm uploading are from another web site and I've gotten his permission and am attributing the images to him. But every image that I add in this manner I still have to add to the Fair Use page? —Frecklefoot 22:05, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- What exactly were the terms of his permission? It sounds as if one of the other tags – {{msg:PermissionAndFairUse}}, or a custom one – might fit the bill better. –Hajor 01:13, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I didn't see that other one ({{msg:PermissionAndFairUse}}). I think that fits it. That wasn't exactly my question, though. I just wanted to know if I have to list every image I upload to the Fair Use page. I can understand adding it there if the status of the image is in question. But all these images are clearly fair use plus I've obtained permission from the source. It just seems like a waste of everyone's time to add such images. —Frecklefoot 16:04, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Fair use is proposed, has some support from high-profile Wikipedians (notably Eloquence and Jimbo Wales), but is not yet common practice. Use your best judgement. Martin 18:27, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Which tag should Image:Isaac.jpg get? I got permission to use it, so I thought about adding {{msg:PermissionAndFairUse}}, but as it is a photograph from pre-1923, doesn't that make it {{msg:PD-US}}? Do I need a new {{msg:PermissionAndPD-US}} tag? Angela. 23:49, Mar 14, 2004 (UTC)
If it is PD only in the US, and needs permission here, then add both. Secretlondon 23:50, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Thanks. I've done that now. It just doesn't make a lot of sense as it is claiming to be fair use and PD at the same time. Angela. 18:56, Mar 24, 2004 (UTC)
French initiative
French Wikipedia has just started a similar (perhaps bolder) project: fr:Wikipédia:Projet, Chasse aux images. On their rc they are also talking about the suppression d'images non décrites (ie, deletion of pics without descriptions). –Hajor 16:48, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- I think that may be a good idea. hopefully, MediaWiki:unverified will help us find such pics easily. Martin 21:47, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Two completely separate things:
1) I notice that {{msg:WorldCoin}} is not listed here, probably because it is created before this initiative; also, at MediaWiki custom messages it is listed under "Sources of articles" while it should be under "Image description namespace". I didn't want to list and move it myself, maybe there is something I don't know.
2) I have just uploaded two images (this and that) for which I couldn't find appropriate tag. I recall seing more images and sites with somewhat similar policies, so I suggest a new message, named perhaps {{msg:SpecificCopyright}}, {{msg:SpecificPermission}} or {{msg:SpecificTerms}}, with contents of, say:
This image is copyrighted, and used with permission. Terms of the permission are given below:
Perhaps not very useful, except to identify such images.
04:30, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Jimbo sez
While Jimbo has said that we should avoid images that are used with permission only, he's also said that we shouldn't go on a mass deletion binge, but proceed slowly and respectfully. During this slow and respectful period, there will be images used with permission on Wikipedia, and it is better that such images are tagged accurately than not tagged at all. Further, some images will be used with permission and fair use, and in these cases a dual tag will always be appropriate, even years from now. Martin 00:26, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
- "Therefore these images should be deleted" [3] Having this message available only encourages people to think that using such images is OK, creating legal problems for downstream users and possibly Wikimedia as well. --mav 00:34, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
[http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikien-l/2004-April/012142.html We're not going to do anything radical and sudden and frightening, but at some point in the possibly distant future, we hope to have our image-tagging sophistication to the point that we'll just delete stuff that doesn't suit our needs for freedom and transparency.] - right back at ya.
Giving people the option promotes clarity, so we can see what we have, and fix any problems. It also aids downstream users, who can clearly see which images are not available for them to use. If you think it's misleading, fix that by editing, not by removing the option. If I see an image that has been uploaded (perhaps months ago) with Wikipedia-specific permission, I want a way to clearly tag it as such - that's what the "used with permission" tag is for. Martin 01:00, 4 May 2004 (UTC)
- There is no practical way for them do do that when they download and use our database. Do you really think that a downstream user would go through the tens of thousands of images we have in order to figure that out? We should not encourage the use of these type of images absent a way to exclude these images from the backup dump we allow anybody to copy. I'll think of some better wording to act as a caveat next to the message. --mav
- Images are not included in the backup dump. anthony (see warning)
- Then how do other websites use our images? --mav
I think it's a good idea to have the tag, if for no other reason than to mark the images for eventual deletion. anthony (see warning)
Although I agree with not going on deletion rampage any time soon, where is the policy of uploading new images that are likely to be tagged with a "non-commerical only" tag. I am considering approaching this guy who has fantastic photos. He already allows non_commercial_reuse_provided_credit_given. (see http://www.galenfrysinger.com/faq.htm) but I would like to try and get a bit more free-ness for his low-res photos. If this is not possible, should I bother copying and loading under the restricted licence, or is the expectation that the wikipedia website will be made unambigiously GFDL-free soon? Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 11:32, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
- Does he allow modification? To some extent that's a bigger isue than non-commercial restrictions... might want to query that with him.
- I would suggest only using an n/c image if it is necessary for the perfect article on some subject, and you are not aware of any alternatives, and it is also likely to be fair use. That's pretty conservaive, and I don't think anyone could reasonably complain about such images. Martin 22:21, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
Confused
I just read an article on the Lunette begging for an illustration. Since it came from an esteemed editor and the image seemed to be within my limited abilities and tools, I took some time to make a rough but representative sketch. When I went to upload the sketch I found that things had radically changed in the months since I had last uploaded images. Everything seemed very reasonable and I could understand why those changes were needed but I could not see what to do. Yes, OK place a tag, but which one? All I wanted was to give away my sketch, with no strings attached, as I had done previously for all my sketches (Armoire desk, Bureau a gradin, Bureau Mazarin, Pedestal desk, Rolltop desk, Spinet desk). This talk page and its original page were very interesting but they were of no help for my problem. At first I thought the logical thing to do would be just to place (how to place it is another question I have not started to figure out) that GNU tag since I have noticed that the Wikipedia content is covered by it. But then I read that you had to identify the creator for this, and I am not willing to reveal my identity. Other tags seemed likely but they were all shot down in the discussion in the talk page. All I want is to give it away so that anybody can do anything with it. What should I do? AlainV 06:30, 2004 May 6 (UTC)
- {{msg:PD}}
- I hereby place this image in the public domain
- - <signature>
Which becomes
-
- I hereby place this image in the public domain
- - <signature>
- AFAIK, you don't need to identify yourself. Work of an anonymous author, or work of an author known under a pseudonym (which is the case here) could be released under any of the licenses. Nikola 22:13, 7 May 2004 (UTC)
- Nicola is correct - you don't need to identify yourself. However, if you do identify yourself, it makes the copyright status a little more verifiable, which may be useful in some cases (eg if the image is subsequently spotted on another website). Martin 22:24, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
Fair's fair
I'm not asking anyone to pay me for my work. I'm not even going to get too pushy about my name appearing under or beside an image I create. But I work hard on my stuff. I don't see any reason I cannot request two simple things: first, that credit be given somewhere when my work is used, even if it's the bibliography, and second, that my work be protected from commercial use. I'm not making money on my work, and I would be profoundly distressed to see it used to promote a commercial site or product with which I had some political or philosophical difference (as a vegan, do I want my sunrise picture promoting a nice breakfast of bacon and eggs? I think not!) So please help me understand why, if I don't agree to what amounts to a flat-out surrender of my work, it's ineligible for Featured Illustration or other Wiki goodies. Denni 02:18, 2004 May 15 (UTC)
- Denni: Because Wikipedia is fundamentally an open content project. We want to take sure that the content of Wikipedia will forever be reusable by everyone. Yes, that means surrendering many of your rights in the process of licensing. The GFDL does require attribution, but also allows commercial use -- in fact, Wikipedia mirrors even now attach ads to our content and make money off our work. We may not like it, but potential misuse is a price we may in order to ensure free use. Whether you choose to license your work under the GFDL is your personal decision as a copyright holder. You can certainly attach other terms to your work (for instance, a non-commercial use term), by licensing under a difference license, but that may also make your work ineligble for inclusion in Wikipedia because of the license terms which Wikipedia uses. -- Seth Ilys 23:45, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
CC licenses
Have we looked closely from a legal standpoint and gotten a definitive answer on whether or how the CC licenses are compatible with the GFDL? I have a feeling that we may need to get professional legal consultation on this matter. -- Seth Ilys 23:47, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
- We have looked closely. The answer is... nobody knows (even lawyers). For "derived" works CC licenses are, in general, incompatible with the GFDL (and vica versa), though both organisations have stated they wish to fix this if possible. However, Wikipedia's use of CC images is based on the "aggregation" section of the GFDL, so may be allowed. Fair use images are in a similar position. Martin 01:57, 21 May 2004 (UTC)