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Punts
Can someone clarify the format for this please? I'm working on the Dessie O'Hare article, which currently has a figure in dollars. The actual reported figure was 1.5 million Irish pounds (£1.3 million). I'm assuming there must be a prefix to designate Irish currency, but I can't find one in the MOS anywhere, or am I better off with UK or US? One Night In Hackney303 00:05, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
- Well, the Irish pound article goes with IR£ to avoid confusion, and I would go with that. (But not IEP) Flowerpotman talk-wot I've done 00:11, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
- IEP is the ISO 4217 standard denotation for the old Irish currency, though and back in the day, we used to see it a lot. Newspapers and other publications used to use it quite a bit and people who - ahem - had various issues with the symbol used. I wouldn't discount it - Alison☺ 00:17, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the help, I went with IR£ as I thought IEP1.5m wasn't particularly clear. One Night In Hackney303 00:36, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
- I would have thought IR£ was used more, as I recall, but to be honest, my objection is on aesthetic grounds ;O). IEP looks .... wrong Flowerpotman talk-wot I've done 01:14, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Irish Administration on Sub-County level
Hi Irish Wikipedians, I am somewhat lost with the Irish administrative organisation of towns and villages (unfortunately neither of these articles provides a section about Ireland!). Take, for example, County Clare. According to the official web site of the Clare County Council there exist four towns within that county: Ennis, Kilrush, Kilkee, and Shannon. These towns appear to have a town council. But I am unable to find any information how a community like that of Killaloe in County Clare is governed. There is apparently no official web site for Killaloe (I've found so far "a community site" only). Likewise, the article about Killaloe in this Wikipedia edition isn't helpful either. In summary, I do not know anything about the formal status of Killaloe and its elementary attributes (population etc). I would appreciate any help in this area (for Killaloe and for Irish locations in general) as I am going to write an German article for Killaloe and possibly more Irish locations (see my German language article about Tory Island as reference). --AFBorchert 20:10, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
- For example in County Kerry, there is the county council, http://www.kerrycoco.ie which governs the entire county. The more notable towns have their own elected urban district council (UDC) - Tralee, Killarney and possibly a few others. The rest of the smaller towns do not have any local government and elect councillors to the County Council. I am not familiar with Clare, but I would be 90% certain that Killaloe does not have its own UDC as it is too small. You can find popluations from the 2006 census on http://www.cso.ie. --Rye1967 11:51, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
- Hi AFBorchert. Local Government Act 2001 and Town Councils in the Republic of Ireland should be of some help - but in essence, as Rye1967 said, small towns such as Killaloe don't have their own councils. Bastun 23:29, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- It can seem strange to countries with traditions of communes, with genuine very-local-government, and places with even tiny communities "incorporating" but most people in Ireland have only County level authorities (and even these have limited power, Ireland being rated as one of the most centrally-administered countries in the world). Some have City or Town Councils, but while the former are autonomous, the latter are still subject for many matters to their County Council. Great to hear about the translation to German. SeoR 09:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Dublin Stubs and Categories
Hello Irish Wikipedians - Advice required.
- Looking at the Category:Towns and suburbs in Dublin I came across some individual housing estates and even a social club.
- I've missed the social club. Can you give us a link? I think the use of the term suburbs gives use loads of leeway about what to include. Frelke 06:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- on the other hand, obvious villages/towns/suburbs were usually not categorised as Category:Geography of Dublin
- But the towns cat IS categorised as Category:Geography of Dublin! Frelke 06:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
- Geographical features such as Three Rock Mountain are often not categorised as Category:Geography of Dublin either.
- But Three Rock is in Category:Mountains of Dublin which is a sub of Category:Geography of Dublin.Frelke 06:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
And so on through a jungle of Dublin categories and sub-categories being assigned almost at random to various articles and stubs. (Yes, I'm guilty too). It there an article/stub category minder in the house? Any clear rules? Does anyone else feel discombobulated by the chaos? (Sarah777 23:26, 25 March 2007 (UTC))
- I think the main rule is use the lowest possible category in the tree. Frelke 06:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Grove Social Club is the offending "suburb". I would have thought there is a clear distinction between an urban village/suburb and a housing estate.
Rathfarnham is a suburb; 15 Parkvale Heath isn't normally regarded as such, or even the whole of Parkvale Heath. (Sarah777 19:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC))
Transport 21 and pushing of a Platform 11 / over critical agenda
Can a someone have a look at Transport 21 , is it just me or is this article very negative and seem to be pushing a Platform 11 agenda? (Gnevin 10:37, 27 March 2007 (UTC))
It doesn't seem particularly biased but there is definitely way too much discussion with the insertion of all the "criticism" sections. It is as much discussion as fact. Perhaps the "criticism" sections should just be deleted? (Sarah777 00:55, 28 March 2007 (UTC))
- Some of the criticisms are extremely valid while others just seem to crystal ball/speculation. I would be opposed to their mass deletion, but the verifiable ones (e.g., previously announced plans/timetables that never came to fruition) could or should be merged into a single 'Criticism' section? BastunBaStun not BaTsun 10:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Yep, I'd agree with that...any volunteers?? (Sarah777 11:16, 28 March 2007 (UTC))
- What i'd suggest is adding {{fact}} to anything that looks dodgy and giving a notice on the talk page that anything uncited will be removed in 10 days , anyone agree (Gnevin 11:20, 28 March 2007 (UTC))
- PS then doing what Bastun suggested (Gnevin 11:35, 28 March 2007 (UTC))
The Golden Horde (band) directly copied from website?
The text of this wiki appears to be a direct copy of this website [1]. I don't want to delete it as I don't know enough about the band and can't recreate it, but perhaps somebody else should?? --The.Q | Talk to me 13:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- Remove what can be removed but if a substantial amount of it is copyvio and their is nothing worth reverting to then tag it to {{copyvio}}. Djegan 14:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Infoboxes
Is there a list of ireland related infoboxes ? And should there be? Frelke 07:09, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Still need Irish media contacts!
I got a call from RTE wanting someone in Ireland they could speak to. Preferably on camera. I'm in London, so that was a bit tricky ... Is anyone out there willing and able to speak in soundbites to the media? Please email Sandra (sordonez (a) wikimedia.org) if you can help in general! - David Gerard 18:25, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Portal
It looks to me like Portal:Ireland is dying slowly. Should we kill it off if no one is interested in maintaining it? Frelke 07:20, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I'd agree. If it is not going to be moderately up-to-date, then I don't want it. The news is announcing Mary Harney's resignation, for pete's sake. I'm very much of the opinion "Do what you do, well". I don't like portals anyway. You are always looking at someone else's view of a subject. Not my cup of tea. Frelke 07:50, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
- Oh dear! I just looked at the edit history. Is anyone here willing to take it on as a project?? I feel Ireland should have a portal on the English wiki, but three other wikiprojects and admin duties preclude me from taking it on right now. It's either that or WP:MFD time. Comments? - Alison☺ 22:25, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- Rather than deleting it, we could recategorise it in either the category Portals needing attention or Portals under construction. I too don't have the time to do it and already try to maintain another Portal. Perhaps someone can take it on as an an ongoing project. Basically it is the news portion that need regular updating while some of the other sections can have the same data rotated. BTW, is there a way of seeing the traffic to this page? ww2censor 23:51, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- I added the category Portals needing attention to the portal. Maybe someone will pick up on that and take it on board as their project. ww2censor 21:07, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
- Rather than deleting it, we could recategorise it in either the category Portals needing attention or Portals under construction. I too don't have the time to do it and already try to maintain another Portal. Perhaps someone can take it on as an an ongoing project. Basically it is the news portion that need regular updating while some of the other sections can have the same data rotated. BTW, is there a way of seeing the traffic to this page? ww2censor 23:51, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- Oh dear! I just looked at the edit history. Is anyone here willing to take it on as a project?? I feel Ireland should have a portal on the English wiki, but three other wikiprojects and admin duties preclude me from taking it on right now. It's either that or WP:MFD time. Comments? - Alison☺ 22:25, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I'd agree. If it is not going to be moderately up-to-date, then I don't want it. The news is announcing Mary Harney's resignation, for pete's sake. I'm very much of the opinion "Do what you do, well". I don't like portals anyway. You are always looking at someone else's view of a subject. Not my cup of tea. Frelke 07:50, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Newstalk
Theres some sort of surreal attempt to get the Newstalk article deleted over at AfD, with a number of votes, all basically identical, using the stations content (as opposed to the article) as justification. Some people here might be interested in joining in with their opinion. --Kiand 12:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Article review, please!
Hi all. I note that a banned user (Robert Sieger) has been editing the usual target articles Daniel O'Connell and Michael Cusack. Can someone look them over and check for NPOV and verifiable statements, just to be on the safe side? One of the articles was fully protected today by an admin as a result of his actions - Alison☺ 22:21, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
A bit of badness!
Just having a look over the etymology of the title Count, Graf, Comes and its English equivalent Earl of which there are and were so many in the Peerage of Ireland....This under Irish. Where did that "A" come from? ;) Brendandh 19:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
- lol Brendandh. Actually Cunta is the correct translation, as in An Cunta Pluincéad. Cuntas means count as in head-count. Scolaire 08:38, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
This article is unclear can someone with a knowledge of this tell me and add to the article if the figure for ulster are for the entire province or just the 3 ROI counties? (Gnevin 08:58, 25 April 2007 (UTC))
- Strange article, strange title. This should be 1) renamed Demographic history of Ireland, and material relating to RoI and NI extracted and placed in new articles Demographic history of the Republic of Ireland and Demographic history of Northern Ireland. The existing Demographic history of Ireland could contain info on post-1921 Ireland for comparative purposes.--Damac 09:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
- The latest data on http://www.cso.ie/census/Census2006_Principal_Demographic_Results.htm always lists Ulster as "Ulster (part of)" which would imply just the 3 counties. As for the article, the numbers would seem to only include 3 counties since the population of Northern Ireland would be much higher, also the counties of Northern Ireland are not listed in the Historical populations per county. I don't see source material on the cso site, but we would expect to see a sharp drop in the population of ulster listed in the article after the 1911 census and there is not. The author seems fairly active perhaps he can clarify. --Albert.white 10:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
CSO Census 2006
I have removed some of the sensational figures for city populations.
The object of these articles (viz, Dublin, Cork,...,Kilkenny) is the cities of the State - they are not about the larger urban areas (meaningless undefined terms like "environ" or "suburb") which have come to dominate wikipedia in the search for national and local self-confidence. The figures I have quoted are those in Table 1 of Census 2006 Volume 1 - Population Classified by Area, they corresspond to the object of the article - the city - they corresspond to the area and the boundary enclosed by the companion maps in the infoboxes. The cities as defined by the final power of the Oireachtas, under the Constitution. Djegan 14:16, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
- I can't comment on these particular examples as I don't know them well enough. However, I'd like to caution against forcing articles about cities to only cover administrative areas, e.g. the city council boundaries. If a majority of people consider an area to be part of a city, despite being outside the administrative boundaries, than such a fact is encyclopaedic and worth mentioning. See, for example, how the article about Bristol, England, deals with suburbs that are outside the city council, but contiguous with the city, and treated in everyday use, both by individuals and by businesses and organisations, as part of it: they are described, but with a note about the administrative situation. Joe D (t) 14:47, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
- Though it is a valid point I would be cautious on compairing the Republic of Ireland with the United Kingdom. The laws between these two jurisdictions have greatly diverged, particularilty in the United Kingdom in the post-war period, and in particular the local government reforms of the 1970s totally changed the relationships such that new cities where created, or concieved, and those in former existance saw a great expansion in their population as surrounding distinctive areas incorporated into urban areas; but in some cases the city proper remains a small area, for instance the city of London. In contrast in the Republic of Ireland no cities have been created or indeed has any sustantial plan been provided for their creation. However the Oireachtas has on several occassions made it clear through enactments that the boundaries of cities have been expanded or contracted as seen fit. This has the effect, for instance, that whilst many Irish cities cover many times the area of the city of London, their population is many times smaller than that of London; that sort of contrast between city area and urban area is not seen in Ireland, they are larely one in the same except when people want to push for the magical one million figure. Djegan 15:20, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
- The Local Authority areas are irrelevant; a City does not lose population simply because it is divided into different administrative units. The continuous built-up area, the real extent of a city in common sense terms, would, if applied to Dublin, result in the loss of Balbriggan and other areas of Fingal; but Bray and Leixlip would become part of the city; giving much the same population as County Dublin. So the County figure is an excellent approximation of the population of 'Dublin the city' - rather then the ludicrous 500,000 for the Dublin City Council administrative area. No need for the use of sneering terms like "magical" atall atall. (Sarah777 20:18, 27 April 2007 (UTC))
- Perhaps what you do not understand is that the city - viz the subject of the articles - is one and the same thing as the local authority area. Consult the local government acts. Its a bit of a contradiction, in the infobox, quoting a figure for population which does not corresspond to the same area; a population figure for some vaguely defined "environ" or "suburb" that does not corresspond to the area or map given is simply a contradiction. I have no problem with a more detailed a analysis of populations in an appropriate section in the article but I am limiting the discussion here to the infobox. Also consulting talk:Dublin will give some idea of the consensus built up on this matter. Its not without precident. Djegan 21:08, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
- And their is no question of places becoming "loss of" and "become part of" in some pov fashion to suite someones agenda. The figures I have quoted are published by the Central Statistics Office and are those for the respective cities. Much of County Dublin is rural and quite distinctive of the city and urban area. Djegan 21:13, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
- The population of those remaining rural areas in County Dublin is very small and has little bearing on the city population, one way or another; what you are suggesting is that places like Sandyford, Dublin 18 (where I live) or Booterstown or Rathmines or Terenure (contiguous, totally integrated parts of the city, some for over 100 years) are not part of Dublin (the city); but some vaguely defined "environ" or "suburb". That is simply ridiculous - so much so as to render the definition of "Dublin City" meaningless.
- As for this fact being "some pov fashion to suite someones agenda" I suggest your reference to "sensational figures for city populations" and talk of the "magical figure of a million" reveals you POV in this matter. The infobox is wrong; it needs changing. An average reader would expect the article on Dublin to be about Dublin city; not the part of it in a specific local authority area. (Sarah777 22:42, 27 April 2007 (UTC))
- You dont seam to have grasped that the city and the local authority area are the same thing; they are not different things; re: the local government acts. The city (and by extension the local authority area) and the urban area are not the same thing. This is often the fundemental misunderstanding. As for what places are and are not in the city, take out an authoritive map that gives a factual account of whats on the ground, or consult the relevant statutory instruments. Lets try to keep it to the encyclopedic facts, the term "city of Dublin" is well recognised in law, its even mentioned in the Constitution twice, it does not mention some half-assed term like "Dublin City" (sic). Too many sensationalist (and poorly interpreted) population figures in Ireland related articles. Djegan 23:01, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
- You don't 'seam' to grasp that what you are saying is complete nonsense! Dublin City is a very common term, 'half-assed' or otherwise! It means what it says on the tin. This is an Encyclopedia; not some legal document! (Sarah777 23:29, 27 April 2007 (UTC))
- Whatever...you just cannot articulate your point. Theirfore rather than something substantial we get a derivative of my own comments aimed back at me. Djegan 23:34, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
- Well, at least you can spell 'articulate'. But 'therefore' seems a bridge too far! (Sarah777 23:52, 27 April 2007 (UTC))
- I can be half-assed derivative as well. At least I know the difference between "Dublin City" and "Dublin city", and "an Encyclopedia" and "an encyclopedia", and "The Local Authority areas" and "The local authority areas" - get your uppercase and lowercase right, or is that get your Uppercase and lOWERCASE write??? Yes, in summary trading insults like this is pretty derivative and childish. Your spelling and grammer is not perfect. Grow up please. Djegan 23:58, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
- The use of Uppercase for Local Authorities and for Emphasis is a Style Thing with me; I guess that explains your spelling? Say something sensible and I'll respond in kind, as I always do. The Topic here is 'CSO Census 2006' - who'd have guessed? (Sarah777 00:17, 28 April 2007 (UTC))
- Whatever. Maybe half-assed spelling is just a style thing for me to! Now you starting to deliberately capitalise is sooo see through. You are just a troll, plain and simple. Lets not try to rationalise it any other way. Lets not fool ourselfs (sic). Djegan 00:25, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
- Well, I'm very well fed then. (Sarah777 00:32, 28 April 2007 (UTC))
Djegan: I'm a little confused. I was prepared to drop the issue with your reply to mine, as I know little about these particular examples. I interpreted your reply as meaning that the local government boundaries were regularly adjusted to matched the contigious built up areas of their cities, meaning that the local government definition and colloquial definition would be the same. However, your discussion regarding Dublin suggests this is not the case, and that it is in fact very much like the situation with Bristol, and similar cities. The local government boundaries of Bristol were defined eleven years ago, but exclude the suburbs of Filton, Bradley Stoke, and Kingswood. However, they are contigious with the city, if driving along an aterial road you wouldn't realise you'd left the "city", and everybody treats them as part of the city. The fact that the government have defined a "city" of Bristol, and an organisation (Bristol City Council) administers that area, is an encyclopaedic fact. However, the fact that everybody else think of those suburbs as being part of Bristol is also an encyclopaedic fact, hence why the Office for National Staistics calculate an "urban area" statistic. The Bristol example is nothing like the example of the City of London (which is a unique case, nothing like the rest of the UK, and anyway, "London" is also officially defined as an administrative region containing most of the built up area), but seems to be exactly like the situation described by Sarah for Dublin.
The Irish government may define the boundaries of the administrative city of Dublin, and they are welcome to define any terms in any way they like, but they can't force anybody except officials to adopt their definitions. If the government defined a spade as a fork, it may be an encyclopaedic fact, but if everybody else ignored the government, that would also be an encyclopaedic fact. Similarly, the Irish government may have their own definition of the word "city", and we should certainly mention that, but doing so does not preclude us from mentioning other definitions. Joe D (t) 21:46, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
- Joe D - the situations in Bristol and Dublin are almost fully analogous. We used to have three local authorities, Dublin Corporation, Dun Laoghaire and County Dublin (which was the remainder of the ancient county). Even then, many contiguous built-up areas were in the County Council (some, as I said, for over a century).
- Following continuous outward growth throughout the 20th century by 1996 half the built-up area and all the population growth was in the County Council section; so 4 authorities were set up: Dublin City Council (replacing Dublin Corporation); County Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown, replacing the Borough of Dun Laoghaire and including a section of the County Dublin; South Dublin County Council and County Fingal (North County Dublin). Perhaps only a third of the continuous built-up area is in the City Council area. (Sarah777 17:23, 30 April 2007 (UTC))
- Some of the above is not what I expected to see in Wikipedia, but I am reassured that all three debaters have some common ground. As an ordinary Jackeen, I agree with Sarah and Joe above that the City Council area of Dublin is not = the city of Dublin, not to anyone with an iota of common sense! By all means quote "500k people under City Council administration" but please note that Dublin City has been listed in official and encyclopediac publications as 1M or more for a very long time. The fact is that the city council boundaries have a lot more to do with old history around the old (and sometimes snobbish) townships like Rathgar and Pembroke than any reality. I suspect that to most people Dublin City is everything from around either Booterstown or Blackrock (Dun Laoghaire still has its own identity) out towards Tallaght, around Blanchardstown and up to the northern greenbelt (Ballymun, Darndale, Donaghmede) and either Baldoyle or the Howth Peninsula. Checking a French official site I see 1.1M listed for Dublin, which seems not unreasonable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.165.181.169 (talk) 01:12, 5 May 2007 (UTC).
- Agree with the above; I'd quibble with that notion that Dun Laoghaire has a real separate identity other than as a suburb with an administrative centre. I don't know what a person in 'real' Dun Laoghaire (as distinct from DL-Rathdown County Council) would say if asked what city he lived in - but in Dundrum, Sandyford and even Blackrock there'd be few takers for "Dun Laoghaire" over "Dublin! (Sarah777 11:50, 5 May 2007 (UTC))
Misuse of flag templates
- I have put forward a proposal here regarding the inappropriate use of Northern Ireland flag templates in WP.--padraig3uk 21:07, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Help!!! Copyright Violator Calling...
Folks, I need some of your expert advice. I was putting the finishing touches to my article on Kilquade when this massive big yoke appeared! What's the storey here? (Sarah777 23:40, 6 May 2007 (UTC))
- You may want to check with the editor who put the template on the page, but the chances are that he/she felt that the inclusion of the content quoted/copied from the "Parish website" might constitute a copy-vio on that content. (IE: Without a notice on the kilquadeparish.com site indicating that the content is free to include elsewhere, it *might* be questionable from a copyright standpoint.) You have three main choices in dealing with the copy-vio template in this case: (1) Just remove the "quoted content", (2) Get into a debate with the other editor about why you think it's not copy-vio, or (3) contact the kp.com site owner and get permission or otherwise clarify the copyr status of their content. Guliolopez 23:56, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks Gulio, I've tried to establish contact with the chap who slapped on the template; he seems scarily inexperienced! (Sarah777 00:46, 7 May 2007 (UTC))
- It appears the person who put the copyright-vio tag on there is from India, so I'm not sure how he might be linked to the Kilquade parish newsletter! My bet is that he's running some kind of bot which scans websites for text and matches it to wiki entries and flags them as copyright violations. And Kilquade was unlucky enough to be in the line of fire. Jhonan talk 01:17, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
- Actually the Indian editor is quite correct to put the copyvio tag on this article as the text Sarah777 added is directly lifted from the website mentioned. However, he does not know how to deal with it properly; he should have removed the offending text as well as reporting the page on the Copyright Problems page" mentioned in the tag and the website should also have been referenced which was not done.
- You have to remember that even when a web site does not have a copyright notice on it, the text is the copyright of someone and you posted it without specific permission from the owners. It is far better to use that type of page as a reference for a freshly written paragraph or two in order to avoid any problems because many times you will not even receive a reply to a request to use the text verbatim. I would remove the text for now as well as the tag and do a fresh rewrite, otherwise I will just remove the offending text and tag but as you were working on it you can finish it correctly or decide what you wish to do. Cheers. ww2censor 03:19, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
- User:Dinarphatak (India) has removed the tag having found my arguments sound! Do you still want me to reorganise the text to give the impression it's mine? (Sarah777 11:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC))
- I think you should, per ww2censor. If I read him correctly he is intending to do it anyway if you don't - it's not dependent on Dinarphatak's response. Scolaire 07:27, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
- User:Dinarphatak (India) has removed the tag having found my arguments sound! Do you still want me to reorganise the text to give the impression it's mine? (Sarah777 11:57, 7 May 2007 (UTC))
- It appears the person who put the copyright-vio tag on there is from India, so I'm not sure how he might be linked to the Kilquade parish newsletter! My bet is that he's running some kind of bot which scans websites for text and matches it to wiki entries and flags them as copyright violations. And Kilquade was unlucky enough to be in the line of fire. Jhonan talk 01:17, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
My understanding is that one or two sentences of copyrighted material can be quoted under fair use, e.g., in the likes of a review. Quoting a substantial passage of text, however, would be a copyvio breach. BastunBaStun not BaTsun 10:38, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
- Surprisingly I agree with Batsun - a couple of attributed lines is ok but you cannot pass of whole passages. Its pretty easy to re-edit stuff to avoid copyvio anyway so I would suggest that a copyedit is done to rejig the section.--Vintagekits 11:13, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
- Well, nearly sorry I asked! I've removed the offending material - I'll put it back when I get around to re-jigging it. (Sarah777 19:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC))
- Actually Sarah777 you are doing the right thing. This can all be part of the learning process, so don't be sorry you asked. It took me a while to figure out what was a copyvio and how to deal with it. Happy County Wicklow editing! ww2censor 23:05, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
- Well, nearly sorry I asked! I've removed the offending material - I'll put it back when I get around to re-jigging it. (Sarah777 19:31, 8 May 2007 (UTC))
Irish Rebels Category
I was looking at this category earlier, and saw it contained the following sub-categories:
- Category:People who died on the 1981 Irish hunger strike
- Category:Irish Republican Army members 1917-1922
- Category:Provisional Irish Republican Army members
For the sake of consistency I added these:
However, then I saw how many articles I'd need to re-categorise were actually in the main category, and decided that before changing them I'd better get a second (and possibly third and fourth) opinion, and as category talk pages are generally sparsely populated, here would be a better venue.
Firstly, I know for a fact I'd be better off creating a Category:Irish Republican Army members category, and putting all the above categories (except the hunger strike one obviously) into that. So should any/all of the IRA members categories be a sub-category of Category:Irish rebels, and I'm assuming nobody objects to the existing hunger strike category being there? One Night In Hackney303 04:02, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
How about creating a category:Irish rebels 1791-1916? It could then be added to the Irish rebels category along with the five above, and all of the rebels on that page could be moved into one of the six. The idea of a single IRA category looks sound at first, but it might very well fall foul of the "the Provos are not the legitimate heirs of the Old IRA" brigade. Scolaire 07:29, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
- The label "rebels" appears inappropriate gaillimhConas tá tú? 15:54, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
- I would suggest anyone who is a member of the "the Provos are not the legitimate heirs of the Old IRA" brigade first looks at Category:Irish Republican Army, as all I will be doing is re-organising the existing categories that are already in that category.
- Bear in mind that should I create Category:Irish Republican Army members it doesn't have to be used in the Irish rebels category, I could just use it in Category:Irish Republican Army and put the individual organisation categories into the rebels category, in case anyone objects to the presence of any particular organisation in the rebels category. One Night In Hackney303 07:44, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
- Fair enough! It's just that the rebels category is going to look a bit funny if it doesn't contain anyone who died after 12 May 1916! Scolaire 18:28, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
- Indeed. I fail to see how IRA members who fought against British tyranny should not be in this category, yet earlier rebels should be. It seems inherently POV not to have them in there. One Night In Hackney303 19:55, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
- Well, I agree with Gaillimh that thanks to the so-called "war on terror" the word "rebel" nowadays has negative connotations that were not associated with the word in the minds of those who proudly described themselves as such in the past. In the legalistic context of the Wikipedia MO 'rebel' implies an illegitimacy and gives undue weight to British legalism (a cancer on Wiki if you ask me).
- My preferred term would be Freedom Fighter (as in freedom from Imperialism or foreign occupation - it would include the Jihadists who are fighting for liberation from occupation in that sense, but sometimes not for freedom in the western sense). (Sarah777 08:06, 11 May 2007 (UTC))
- I'm afraid that "freedom fighter" has major POV problems, because once person's freedom fighter is another's terrorist (was Franco a "freedom fighter"? From a fascist perspective, he certainly was, but from a socialist perspective, he was the exact opposite). I think that "rebel" is not a perfect term, but also that it isn't too bad: for an Irish Republican guerilla fighter, isn't it it reasonably to both POVs fair to call them a rebel against the de facto authority? A loyalist might argue that they are bad and dangerous rebels, and a republican that they are heroic, patriotic and right; but can't both sides agree that they are referring to people who rebel against a de facto state?
Would "insurgent" be an improvement? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:07, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
- I'm afraid that "freedom fighter" has major POV problems, because once person's freedom fighter is another's terrorist (was Franco a "freedom fighter"? From a fascist perspective, he certainly was, but from a socialist perspective, he was the exact opposite). I think that "rebel" is not a perfect term, but also that it isn't too bad: for an Irish Republican guerilla fighter, isn't it it reasonably to both POVs fair to call them a rebel against the de facto authority? A loyalist might argue that they are bad and dangerous rebels, and a republican that they are heroic, patriotic and right; but can't both sides agree that they are referring to people who rebel against a de facto state?
- I'll try and wrap this up. Does anyone have any objections to members of all variants of the IRA going in Category:Irish rebels? If there aren't, then Category:Irish Republican Army members can be added. If people have a concrete objection to any particular variant, then the individual categories can be added instead. One Night In Hackney303 12:09, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
- I think you should go with adding Category:Irish Republican Army members. Also. if you have time, you might think about re-categorising any post-1916 IRA members who are in the broader category at the moment.
- Oh, hang on! That's what you said you were going to do in the first place ;-). Scolaire 14:26, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
- Indeed, I didn't want to start re-categorising them all only to have to undo everything should someone object so thought it best to discuss first. One Night In Hackney303 14:29, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
- No objection. (Sarah777 00:05, 14 May 2007 (UTC))
Townlands in Ireland
Hello again Wiki Experts. Category:Townlands in Ireland is a new one I have created - but I'm not good at this sort of thing. It is to cater for articles I come across about areas which contain no town or village but are townlands. There is about 40,000 of these in Ireland so we need some category to place them in. Some I have come across are "orphaned" because they don't link to anywhere else; a few have been (incorrectly) added to the list of "Towns and Villages in Ireland" - when I find these I always remove them, thus creating some orphans. But as many locals from rural parts like to write about their townlands (as they do with their parishes) we need a category; with sub-categories for the counties I would suggest. All comments welcome. (Sarah777 22:30, 12 May 2007 (UTC))
- I suppose there will gradually be some articles for this category. There probably should also be Category:Parishes of Ireland, somewhat like Category:Parishes, there may already be some articles on specific parishes, eg Brosna - see County Kerry. Also, what should be the parent cat for the townlands one, possibly Category:Geography of the Republic of Ireland? --Rye1967 23:44, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
- Ah, there is a Category:Townlands of Ireland already in existence, although I only discovered it just now when searching for townland articles. Flowerpotman talk|contribs 00:09, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
- LOL! I have to admit that despite Lord-knows-how-much categorizing I have done in the last few months, I didn't know about that category until tonight. I agree with you about the category needing sub-categories for counties. My only concern is whether some townland articles might have notability issues. Flowerpotman talk|contribs 02:04, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
- My feeling is that most townlands will, as Flowerpotman suggests, have notability issues unless they are notable for some famous geographical feature or significant historical fact. I am very reluctant to start adding county subcategories when there are only 25 article linked here at the moment, so let's wait and see if we really need county subcategories at some future time when the category is too populated. ww2censor 02:27, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
- LOL! I have to admit that despite Lord-knows-how-much categorizing I have done in the last few months, I didn't know about that category until tonight. I agree with you about the category needing sub-categories for counties. My only concern is whether some townland articles might have notability issues. Flowerpotman talk|contribs 02:04, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
- Sounds OK, just a caution - there are lots more of them out there than the 25 in the category, such as Stickens was. Strickens, a few fields outside the village of Caragh (that's near Naas!!) seems to be somewhat sub-notable, but it does have 30 scattered dwellings and nearly 100 people. Aren't all populated places notable? (I'm just trying to stop folk categorising their residence plus the cousins up the road as a "village" for inclusion in the "Towns and villages of Ireland" page). But now that we know we have a "townland" category I guess we can just let things develop. Mind you, without ever having heard of it before I imagine Stickens is probably outer suburban Naas, given it is only a couple of kilometers from the town.(Sarah777 02:45, 13 May 2007 (UTC))
- I have added a speedy-rename notice to Category:Townlands in Ireland so that the cat will be removed by an admin, and so that others know of the alternative. Someone added a townland to it again in the past few hrs.--Rye1967 09:25, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Towns and Suburbs and Business Parks of Dublin
Hello all,
As a new editor, I want to ensure I understand things correctly. I had noted that "Towns and Suburbs in Dublin", which I would see as in important gathering, and which I think means something clear to the ordinary gal/guy reading (including me in my previous existence as an ordinary Wikipedia user), while mostly being actual suburbs of Dublin, and nearby villages/towns, also had a number of housing estates and business parks added to it. These are commercial developments, and often fine ones, but as a matter of fact, I would have thought it clear that such things are *not* suburbs, except maybe to hungry property agencies. I think that not doing this creates a danger of commercial abuse, and damages credibility.
I do note from the discussion forums that such issues have arisen before. And I do not seem to be the only one concerned about this now. At the same time, not an issue to put a lot of time into, there is so much else to do. But a fellow editor, Sarah77, has queried re. one case.
Whether posted as such for promotional reasons or not, I thought the best thing was to simply correct the categorisation, while enhancing the article if possible. As a further step, one could place such items into the locations to which they do belong. And so I see tidying by editors of such places as "Park West", "Point Village", a road behind the Hospital in Dundrum, an estate in Swords etc., as positive. Maybe some day some of these will be new suburbs, but some will not, and those which do will probably not go by marketing names like "Park West" (this would be against City Council policy), and before being recognised encyclopedically, might need more time, and appropriate action by authorities (neither local authority nor An Post has recognised Park West or City West, which is Tallaght/Saggart, for example, as anything like a suburb). The question of numbers living in Park West was raised, but thousands can live in one apartment complex too (see any big city in much of the world), but that does not make it a suburb.
At any rate, I am sure there are straightforward solutions, and I would welcome guidance. If I could suggest one approach, it might be to:
- Make a clear definition for "Towns and Suburbs in Dublin"
- Have a separate category for the genuinely significant "Business Parks in Dublin"
- And, while placing both business parks and new developments in their actual locales - and if I understand, for most suburbs/towns, individual housing estates, residents associations, civic and business groups and so on, do not qualify for separate articles - where a business or housing development does warrant an article, place it in a category with its parent area
I look forward to feedback, and in the meantime, will go edit something different. I am glad to be participating in this project, and see some work waiting in literary and castle areas... SeoR 06:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- If we agree a definition of "suburb" then I'd go with that. But of course I'd argue that Citywest is a suburb. In the past it has taken me time and effort to remove individual housing estates and even some fictional areas ("North Killiney") from the "Towns and Suburbs of Dublin" category. It might be easier to define what should NOT be listed; but of course I'd argue such exclusion could not include Citywest!
- And a declaration here: I started both articles, Park West and Citywest (amongst numerous other suburbs) and I can assure you it has nothing to do with any commercial interest. (I also started Cherrywood, btw, another commercial development).
- A look at the Dollymount and North Killiney sagas will illustrate the extreme difficulty of getting any agreement in this area, and current practice appears to be that the burden of proof lies very heavily with the person arguing that some named area is NOT a suburb. (Sarah777 09:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC))
- To this wanderer o' the Web, this does sound like an important issue. And especially as some of the recent additions to the page in question do look like deliberate marketing campaigns, specificially barred as reminded on every submission page. But interesting is that both parties so far appear to agree on the basics. And so it seems that setting some kind of definition for "town or suburb of Dublin" is a good move.
- Dollymont is an interesting case, and seems to have been "left hanging" a bit - but North Killiney looks spurious, IMHO (i.e., was never a real dispute, and Sarah77 did the right thing).
- However, on principles, if just one, unchecked, user, in this case >Sarah77<, can "make" a suburb or town, there is no logic in the idea that "current practice appears to be that the burden of proof lies very heavily with the person arguing that some named area is NOT a suburb". Nor does this match policy, or the nature of an encyclopedia - facts are the key. Citywest, for example, either is or is not a new area, and this should be verifiable.
- And is the above "current practice" so? CW 217.118.66.3 11:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC) Clarified, 217.118.66.3 11:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- Well, this "unchecked user" is simply refering to that fact that based on my experience with various places in Dublin it has been up to me to convince the Wiki folk that a place (real or imaginary) doesn't merit categorising as a "town or suburb".
- "Citywest, for example, either is or is not a new area, and this should be verifiable." Clearly, Citywest is a new area (in that it was fields 20 years ago) - the question is whether it can be classified as a suburb. And as I say, if we could agree a definition it would make the job of keeping "Oakdale Crescent" from being classed as a suburb much easier. (And, no offence intended, but it is best if policy is being formulated that the contributors are registered - as otherwise the suspicion will persist that various anonymous contributions are not from separate people). (Sarah777 19:46, 17 May 2007 (UTC))
- Interesting that there appears to be an assumption towards having new areas. I am surprised but I guess it is fine, as long as streets, estates and marketing pieces are caught. On the question, I note that lack of feedback, at least from regular members, and so, as per my talk page, will not intervene further with Park West, Citywest or Cherrywood. But on a positive note, thanks to whoever is gathering areas with multiple pages into categories, this does help.
- One small point, around the use of An Post and its geodatabase and localities - I asked a local post office person and they advised that this should be done with care, as postal addresses contain sorting area names. What is definitive are the house identifier (number or name), street name, and Dublin postal district, and An Post has no real interest in the in-between line - they don't need it, as in all of Dublin, apparently, only one street name (either High or Main St.) occurs more than once in a postal district - impressive!
- This explains some of the more persistent "confused area" issues, as sometimes a few streets, for example, will be served from a different sorting area than their base locality. And of course, if this is good for house valuation... Luckily, there are usually markers, such as major roads or rivers, and older, and some foreign, maps often show the areas very clearly.
SeoR 14:34, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Could do with some more info on Dunboyne
Anyone else out there who knows a good deal of information about Dunboyne?
I want it to become quite a decent article, but I seem to be the only one who has anything to contribute towards it....
-- TheChrisD™ 12:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I added a bit on roads (Sarah777 13:36, 29 May 2007 (UTC))
- I know nothing about it, but formatted it a bit and added a source for the ship. One Night In Hackney303 17:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Oh so there actually is a ship called Dunboyne out there? Wow, never knew that.... *goes back to translating for Irish wiki* -- TheChrisD™ 18:04, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Indeed, it has its own article. One Night In Hackney303 18:06, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- Oh so there actually is a ship called Dunboyne out there? Wow, never knew that.... *goes back to translating for Irish wiki* -- TheChrisD™ 18:04, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- I know nothing about it, but formatted it a bit and added a source for the ship. One Night In Hackney303 17:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Category:Sinn Féin politicians
- I've been looking through the above Category:Sinn Féin politicians and found a number of people who I don't believe are notable. It seems that one editor has in good faith created a number of articles on SF candidates for 2007. Most if not all if them, I believe are not notable and should be deleted. As soon as I can find the correct procedure for doing so I'm going to nominate the following, unless anyone can think of reasons for keeping them (e.g. Dessie Ellis was originally in there until someone rightly pointed out that his extradition was notable.)
These were unsuccessful candidates, who don't seem to have held any kind of publically elected office at all Henry Cremin, Lynn Ní Bhaoighealláin, Liam Browne, Martin Kenny, Joanne Finnegan, Joanne Spain, Sorcha Nic Cormaic, Matt McCormack, Cristin McCauley, Threasa Bennitt, Felix Gallagher, Peter Lawlor (Sinn Féin), Kathleen Funchion, Shaun Tracey, Maurice Quinlivan, Anna Prior
These are only notable for being current/former local councillors - is that grounds for notability? I'm very dubious that it is? Joe Reilly, Séamus Morris, John Dwyer (Politician), Jonathan O'Brien, Paul Hogan (Irish political figure), Brian Stanley, Cionnaith Ó Súilleabháin, Sandra McLellan, Jason Devlin, Anne Marie Carroll, Eoin Ó Broin, Daithí Doolan, Gerry Murray, David Cullinane, Larry O'Toole, Pádraig Mac Lochlainn, Pearse Doherty Thanks, Valenciano 22:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Local councillors dont satisfy automatic notability. Unless some of these canidates have or are on the Ard Comhairle or satisfy other sections of WP:BIO then they should be deleted.--Vintagekits 22:20, 30 May 2007 (UTC) P.S. I would say that Pearse Doherty is probably notable also.
- So would being on the National Executive now or in the past count as notable? I've nominated everyone in the first (non-councillor) category for now. As has been pointed out, the SF category is not the only one likely to feature non notables. The only problem is that the Fianna Fail, Fine Gael and Labour categories are much larger and will take longer to go through. I had a look through the PDs category which seems okay but the Greens category showed the following, which I've also nominated Fintan MacCarthy, Seán Ó Maolchallann Valenciano 14:40, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Medieval Ireland wikiproject
Hi I was wondering whether any one would be interested in setting up something similar to Wikipedia:WikiProject Medieval Scotland, but in relation to Ireland? Brendandh 06:59, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Durrus
I've nominated Durrus and District History Modern and Durrus and District History for deletion, the discussion can be found at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Durrus and District History Modern. Thanks. One Night In Hackney303 17:16, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
A fascinating article
Purely by chance, I happened on an article on one of the unsung heroes of Irish Nationalism, D. D. Sheehan. The article is longer than most articles on major Irish figures of the time, weighing in at 26,983 characters, compared to 20,053 for Patrick Pearse, and contains bibliography, external links and a link to Wikisource. It has had 927 edits between 23 February 2005 and 3 June 2007, the vast majority by Niall O'Siochain and osioni (O'Siochain, Niall?), the latter taking over from the former at 20:32 (UTC) on 24 May 2005. The talk page, apart from WPBiography stuff, is entirely written by osioni, except for one anonymous edit that added a lengthy quote from a magazine article, including the telling sentence: "Sheehan’s grandson. Niall O’Siocahain has almost made it his lifetime’s work to establish the case and now uses the Internet to put if (sic) forward."
Hmm! Is this really what Wikipedia is for?
Scolaire 08:03, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
- Add uncited to it and it should be grand (Gnevin 09:25, 5 June 2007 (UTC))
- It's interesting and reads well though. (Sarah777 15:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC))
Malone Road
Have only just noticed the Malone Road site! What do you think of it? [If you wish please comment on my Talk page]Osborne 15:12, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Common Travel Area
I've just uploaded a (hopefully) much improved version of the article on the Common Travel Area and was thinking of getting a themed photograph for the article. At present there's just a map with Britain and Ireland highlighted. I have a vague memory of seeing signage referring to the Common Travel Area in British airports. If anyone's travelling to the UK sometime soon they could take a photograph of one of these signs, so we could put it on the page.
(You should probably ask before taking a picture, just to make sure you don't get arrested under the UK Terrorism Act 2000, which would, needless to say be rather unfortunate. -:) ) Caveat lector 00:14, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I suggest removing the following striked people , the last time i did this i was total i vandalised the article
- Thomas Ashe - died on hunger strike in 1917
- Kevin Barry - a medical student executed by the British for his role in the Irish War of Independence. (His body was moved from Mountjoy Prison to Glasnevin in October 2001, having been accorded a state funeral.)
* Piaras Beaslai - Easter Rising survivor turned writer
Sir Alfred Chester Beatty - art collector- Brendan Behan - author and playwright
- Harry Boland - friend of Michael Collins and anti-Treaty politician. Image of Harry Boland's grave
- Christy Brown - writer of My Left Foot and subject of the film of the same name
* Father Francis Browne - Jesuit priest and photographer who took the last known photographs of RMS Titanic
- Cathal Brugha - first President of Dáil Éireann (January - April 1919) Image of Cathal Brugha's grave
- Sir Roger Casement - Human rights campaigner turned Irish revolutionary, executed by the British in 1916.2 Image of Casement grave
- Robert Erskine Childers - Irish republican and Treaty signatory executed by the Irish Free State government during the Irish Civil War. Erskine Childers' grave, located in the Republican Plot.
- J. J. Clancy - Irish Nationalist MP (1847-1928)
- Michael Collins - assassinated republican leader, Anglo-Irish Treaty signatory & first internationally recognised Irish head of government.
* Roddy Connolly - socialist politician and son of James Connolly.
- Andy Cooney - Irish republican
- John Philpot Curran - patriotic barrister, renowned wit, lawyer on behalf of Wolfe Tone and other United Irishmen, Sarah Curran's father.
William Dargan - Ireland's rail pioneer- Éamon de Valera - 3rd President of Ireland (1959-1973) and dominant leader of 20th century.
* Sinéad de Valera - wife of Éamon de Valera, buried in the same plot.
- Anne Devlin - famed housekeeper of Robert Emmet
- John Devoy - Fenian leader. Image of John Devoy's grave.
- John Blake Dillon - Irish writer and politician
* Frank Duff - founder of the Legion of Mary
James Fitzmaurice - aviation pioneer- Sir John Grey - Irish 19th century MP. Image of Sir John Grey's gravestone
- Maud Gonne - nationalist campaigner, love of W.B. Yeats's life, famed beauty and mother of Nobel & Lenin Peace Prize winner Sean MacBride, who is buried in the grave also. Image of Maud Gonne & Sean MacBride's grave
- Arthur Griffith - President of Dáil Éireann (January - August 1922).
- Tim Healy - 1st Governor-General of the Irish Free State. image of Tim Healy's grave.
- Gerard Manley Hopkins - poet
- Peadar Kearney - composer of the Irish National Anthem, Amhrán na bhFiann
- Kitty Kiernan - fiancée of Michael Collins
- James Larkin - Irish trade union leader and founder of the Irish Transport & General Workers Union (ITGWU).
- Seán MacBride - founder of Clann na Poblachta and a founder-member of Amnesty International.
- Edward Cardinal McCabe - late 19th century Archbishop of Dublin & Primate of Ireland. Image of the elaborate monument to Cardinal McCabe.
* Dick McKee - prominent member of the Irish Republican Army during the War of Independence.
Terence MacManus - Irish rebel and shipping agent.- Countess Constance Markiewicz - first woman elected to the British House of Commons and a minister in the first Irish government.
Manchester Martyrs - gravestone honouring three members of the Irish Republican Brotherhood known in history as the Manchester Martyrs who were in fact buried in the grounds of a British prison following their execution by the British.- Dermot Morgan - Irish satirist and star of Father Ted. He was cremated in Glasnevin but is buried in Deansgrange Cemetery.
* Kate Cruise O'Brien - writer & publisher. This is not Kate O'Brien who is buried in Faversham Cemetery.
- Daniel O'Connell - dominant Irish political leader from 1820s to 1840s. O'Connell's tomb under the specially built round tower O'Connell's tomb interior
- Patrick Denis O'Donnell - well-known Irish military historian, writer, and former UN peace-keeper.
- Jeremiah O'Donovan Rossa - Fenian leader. Patrick Pearse's oration at his funeral in 1915 has gone down in history.
- Eoin O'Duffy - Chief of Staff of the Irish Republican Army and leader of The Blueshirts.
- Thomas O'Hagan, 1st Baron O'Hagan - Lord Chancellor of Ireland.
- Kevin O'Higgins - assassinated Vice-President of the Executive Council.
- Sean T. O'Kelly - 2nd President of Ireland (1945-1959).
- John O'Mahony - a founder of the Irish Republican Brotherhood.
* James O'Mara - nationalist leader and member of the First Dáil
- Charles Stewart Parnell - dominant Irish political leader from 1875 to 1891.
- Patrick ( P J ) Ruttledge - Minister in Eamon de Valera's early governments.
- Daniel D. Sheehan - first independent Irish labour MP.
- Hanna Sheehy-Skeffington - founder of Irish Women's Franchise League
* David P. Tyndall - prominent Irish businessman who transformed the grocery business
(Gnevin 21:30, 20 June 2007 (UTC))
- Why would you want to remove any of them.--padraig3uk 23:18, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
- Aye, why? For presentation's sake maybe, but then a sub article should be created Burials in Glasnevin Cemetery or some such like. If it's about presentation, Looooong lists etc. and a new article is not suitable, put them into columns. Brendandh 23:35, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
- You beat me to it - if they are notable enough to have articles and they are buried in Glasnevin then they should be listed!--Vintagekits 23:41, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah its about presentation , i never though on a new article. I'll move them in the above suggested article (Gnevin 16:23, 21 June 2007 (UTC))
- You beat me to it - if they are notable enough to have articles and they are buried in Glasnevin then they should be listed!--Vintagekits 23:41, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
- Aye, why? For presentation's sake maybe, but then a sub article should be created Burials in Glasnevin Cemetery or some such like. If it's about presentation, Looooong lists etc. and a new article is not suitable, put them into columns. Brendandh 23:35, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Dail constituency pages
I've begun working on improving the Dail constituency pages. Ultimately what I would like to do would be to have full results online for each election similar to this [2] rather than just having 1st preference results only. Those from November 1982 onwards are already online so the focus would be on February 1982 and earlier. I have the 1977 ones courtesy of the Irish times but I'm hoping that the rest will be in newspapers from the time. So far I've been creating results tables like Dublin Artane manually but is there an easier and less time consuming way to do this? Valenciano 17:41, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
The generic "Irish Politician" stub
{{Ireland-politician-stub}} The definition of this stub seems to have been changed recently from "Irish Politician" to "Politician from the Republic of Ireland". Originally it could be used for stub articles on people involved in politics anywhere on the geographic location (i.e. the whole island of Ireland), not just the current Republic or UK area. This distinction is important for articles on events before the partition e.g. Edward Robert King-Harman would identify as Irish and a politician involved in Irish politics but would be horrified at being described as a "Politician from the Republic of Ireland". Can we change this stub back to meaning Ireland generically and use a different stub to denote a politician involved in the modern political entity of the Republic ? Or have I missed something ? Rcbutcher 04:09, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
- Maybe sub cats need to be made but I am not sure that that is the solution.--Vintagekits 10:51, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
POW category added to IRA articles
Is the Prisoners of war category appropriate for IRA articles? As the Troubles article states, it was variously described as "terrorism, an ethnic conflict, a many-sided conflict, a guerrilla war, a low intensity conflict, or even a civil war." But no state of actual war existed so IRA prisoners weren't POWs. They had Special Category Status for four years, which was akin to POW status, but not POW status itself. Any thoughts? Stu ’Bout ye! 10:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Obviously I would say that it is applicable. Firstly its sourced info so ticks that box, secondly the IRA through the Green Book had declared war on Britain so a war footing was established. I also propose to extend this category for those invlove in the 1916 Rising how were imprisioned in Knutsford and Frongoch, finally to all intense and purposes Long Kesh was a prisoner of war camp.--Vintagekits 10:50, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Well. Let's hold off on the "should people impisoned for actions during the troubles be categorised as POWs?" debate for now. One way or the other all those IRA prisoner articles SHOULD NOT be in the "base" POW category. If those articles need to be categorised, they should be put under a "People imprisoned during the troubles" style category. Beyond that we can have a discussion whether THAT cat should be a sub-cat of POW. But the current set-up is definitely not appropriate. Guliolopez 10:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- All people in the POW category are also in the People convicted/imprisioned on terrorism charges cats aswell. Are you suggestion a merger of those in the "opposing" cats?--Vintagekits 11:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC) p.s. just saw that you wrote this article - great work, I was considering one for Cathal Brugha.--Vintagekits 11:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- RE: Merge of "imprisoned for terrorism" and "POW" cats. No. That isn't neccesary. It doesn't have to be a unique or merged cat. But the "POW" cat is now heavily populated with IRA prisoners. It imbalances the cat. They just shouldn't be in the base category. The IRA prisoners should be simply moved to a subcat. Not unlike Category:People killed during the Troubles. Once that's done we can get into further debate.
- RE: Cathal Brugha Barracks. I started capturing raw data for that article myself sometime ago. I was planning on building a stub on my "Work In Progress" page and then create the article proper. Haven't got around to it yet though. Guliolopez 11:21, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- All people in the POW category are also in the People convicted/imprisioned on terrorism charges cats aswell. Are you suggestion a merger of those in the "opposing" cats?--Vintagekits 11:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC) p.s. just saw that you wrote this article - great work, I was considering one for Cathal Brugha.--Vintagekits 11:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Of course they're not prisoners of war. Simply because the IRA say that they at war with Britain doesn't make it so. If I say I'm at war with Britain and go out and murder someone British, will I be a prisoner of war too when I get caught? Of course not. To say otherwise would be incredibly subjective, just the same as in this case. 81.77.42.226 14:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Third edit from an IP - hhmmmm!! Please explain what a Prisoner of War is then and you'll soon find out. p.s. when the British Government send thousands of troops to wherever you are to try and defeat you then i will take you declaration of war a bit more serious! Slan!--Vintagekits 14:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, I have an IP. Scandalous. Whatever happened to AGF? I don't see any other talk from anonymous editors in this section anyway, so it seems incredibly over the top to imply anything untoward is going on - hypocritical even, given your history for puppetry. Regardless, my user name is ExNihilo since you're so fascinated. I'm not logged in and I'll be damned if I'm going to just to avert your paranoia. Back to the subject at hand: Find me substantial NPOV references for the Britain-IRA situation being considered a war. Without those references this shouldn't even be a discussion since it can only be considered OR or POV otherwise. 81.77.42.226 15:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- How cute!--Vintagekits 15:06, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, I have an IP. Scandalous. Whatever happened to AGF? I don't see any other talk from anonymous editors in this section anyway, so it seems incredibly over the top to imply anything untoward is going on - hypocritical even, given your history for puppetry. Regardless, my user name is ExNihilo since you're so fascinated. I'm not logged in and I'll be damned if I'm going to just to avert your paranoia. Back to the subject at hand: Find me substantial NPOV references for the Britain-IRA situation being considered a war. Without those references this shouldn't even be a discussion since it can only be considered OR or POV otherwise. 81.77.42.226 15:00, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Third edit from an IP - hhmmmm!! Please explain what a Prisoner of War is then and you'll soon find out. p.s. when the British Government send thousands of troops to wherever you are to try and defeat you then i will take you declaration of war a bit more serious! Slan!--Vintagekits 14:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- Well. Let's hold off on the "should people impisoned for actions during the troubles be categorised as POWs?" debate for now. One way or the other all those IRA prisoner articles SHOULD NOT be in the "base" POW category. If those articles need to be categorised, they should be put under a "People imprisoned during the troubles" style category. Beyond that we can have a discussion whether THAT cat should be a sub-cat of POW. But the current set-up is definitely not appropriate. Guliolopez 10:55, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
[3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9] - more if you want!!--Vintagekits 15:17, 10 July 2007 (UTC)