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This page is only for discussing how the Teahouse is run and operated. '''If you need help with editing''', or have a question about how Wikipedia works, '''[[Wikipedia:Teahouse|click here to go to the Teahouse Q&A forum]]'''. </div> |
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| text = <span style="font-size:1.4em;">This is <strong><em>not</em> the place to ask questions</strong> about Wikipedia.{{parabr}}</span> |
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This page is only for discussing how the Teahouse is run and operated.<br/>Please '''[[Wikipedia:Teahouse|ask questions at the Teahouse Q&A forum]]'''. |
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== I'm adding myself to the host list! == |
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—since I try to help a lot anyway. I haven't done so yet because I've spent a considerable time learning on the job, including how to always be friendly and as helpful as possible. Of course it doesn't mean anything particular, I just wanted others to know that me adding myself to the host list is coming with an explicit commitment to be the best host possible. :) cheers!<span id="Remsense:1704323874565:Wikipedia_talkFTTCLNTeahouse" class="FTTCmt"> [[User:Remsense|<span style="border-radius:2px 0 0 2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F;color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]][[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="border:1px solid #1E816F;border-radius:0 2px 2px 0;padding:1px 3px;color:#000">留</span>]] 23:17, 3 January 2024 (UTC)</span> |
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:Nice to have you involved {{smiley}} <span style="color:#AAA"><small>{{u|</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}}</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 07:01, 4 January 2024 (UTC) |
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== Decision tree at [[WP:TRIAGE]] == |
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: Welcome to hosting and I echo @Sdkb. It is nice to have you involved. --[[User:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b76e79">'''A'''</span><span style="color:#be4f60">'''Rose'''</span>]][[User talk:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b87333">'''Wolf'''</span>]] 13:27, 4 January 2024 (UTC) |
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I've had an idea for a Wikipedia decision tree to help newcomers with the most common questions and answers. I started putting it down in text form at [[WP:TRIAGE]]. Eventually it would be great to turn into a flowchart, like [[Wikipedia:New_pages_patrol#/media/File:NPP_flowchart.svg]]. I'd welcome any feedback. [[User:Timtempleton|<b style="color:#7F007F">TimTempleton</b>]] [[User talk:Timtempleton|<sup style="color:#800080">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Timtempleton|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)</sup>]] 19:46, 10 June 2022 (UTC) |
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:An interesting idea, Tim. It might be a bit complex or overwhelming for a newcomer to navigate by themselves, but as the bones of a flow-chart, it could be good to help Teahouse hosts and everyone else to distil down the pathways of choices and advice we should be giving. I was unclear where exactly you wanted comments and suggestions posted, or if you wanted us to edit [[WP:TRIAGE]] directly? I thought it best not to do that, so I'll just comment that [[WP:VPT]] seems a better link for technical advice than [[WP:VP]], though I doubt newcomers here would really need to know about that at this early stage of their editing career. But it's a good link to be aware of in that flow of answering questions. Another route to include could be "Are you concerned about an article's notability Y/N?". I'd change [[WP:TWA]] to [[Help:Introduction]]. I think TWA is so clunky and doesn't work on mobiles (now around 45% of our editors, if I correctly remember seeing this figure mentioned somewhere), and is so out of date that it shouldn't be part of the flow at all now. Oh, and don't forget Newcomer tasks and the Homepage Tab, too. Hope this is a good starter for you to develop this further. [[User:Nick Moyes|Nick Moyes]] ([[User talk:Nick Moyes|talk]]) 01:07, 13 June 2022 (UTC) |
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::Tim, you might be interested in a similar suggestion now in the archive at [[WT:Teahouse/Archive_23#Soliciting host feedback on draft help page]]. {{u|Levivich}}'s idea was prototyped by him and still exists at [[User:Levivich/Help]]. At the time, I thought it would be useful but I'm not aware of it being widely used. It illustrates one way to implement a flowchart. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 12:01, 13 June 2022 (UTC) |
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:::Thanks {{u|Nick Moyes|Nick}} and {{u|Michael D. Turnbull|Michael}}! I just took the Wikipedia Adventure and agree that it's a bit outdated, and it actually wouldn't let me continue past a certain point on my desktop, so I had to quit out. Hopefully someone will take an interest in going through to update it and user test it to improve the experience. I'll see how I can integrate [[Help:Introduction]]. And I liked the interactive nature of {{u|Levivich}}'s help system - could be an offshoot in addition to having an actual flowchart. And I just added [[Help:Introduction to navigating Wikipedia/1]] as an option. I'll also have to figure out how to name a range so I don't need to change the numbers in the flow chart each time I add a new step. And linking to [[WP:VPT]] is a better choice than linking to [[WP:VP]]. [[User:Timtempleton|<b style="color:#7F007F">TimTempleton</b>]] [[User talk:Timtempleton|<sup style="color:#800080">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Timtempleton|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)</sup>]] 21:49, 14 June 2022 (UTC) |
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::::{{rtp}} Just wanted to mention that {{t|help button}} is designed to be easily forked so that it can be used for other types of decision-trees/flowcharts. An example of an existing fork is {{t|DYK help}}. For convenience, one can see the results by clicking on these buttons: {{help button}} {{DYK help}}. If anyone has any questions, please feel free to ping me or ask at my talk page. <span id="Levivich:1655243882420:Wikipedia_talkFTTCLNTeahouse" class="FTTCmt">[[User:Levivich|Levivich]] 21:58, 14 June 2022 (UTC)</span> |
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::::Thanks for that update, [[User:Timtempleton|Timtempleton]], and for taking suggestions onboard. I wonder if you've thought further about my comment as to who it is best aimed at. Are you still wanting to make something quite complex-looking that a newcomer can try to follow, or is it better to focus on a workflow that new hosts can follow in their welcoming and question-answering processes? I don't think they're mutually exclusive, but it really helps to understand one's Aims and Objectives to start with. I'm still of the view that creating a host/helper's workflow could be the best start. Then, having bottomed that, you could distill it back down to a simpler form for a newcomer to follow for themselves. (But then I did always like to overcomplicate things!) [[User:Nick Moyes|Nick Moyes]] ([[User talk:Nick Moyes|talk]]) 22:10, 14 June 2022 (UTC) |
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::::: I'm learning more and more thanks to you guys. {{re|Levivich}} I just added [[Wikipedia:Contact us]] as an additional [[WP:TRIAGE]] choice that visitors to Wikipedia might make. {{re|Nick Moyes}} This is meant to help visitors understand how to use and improve Wikipedia. There are lots of moving parts, but I haven't seen them synthesized in an easy to follow format. I don't know the best way to share this flowchart with newcomers, but once it's ready for prime time, we could include WP:TRIAGE in a standard welcome message to user pages. It could also certainly do double duty by helping up and coming help desk and teahouse volunteers understand how to help new users. You may have noticed I removed [[WP:TWA]]. Newcomers to the help desk or teahouse are constantly being directed there, although I don't think they should be after just going through the exercise myself. [[User:Timtempleton|<b style="color:#7F007F">TimTempleton</b>]] [[User talk:Timtempleton|<sup style="color:#800080">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Timtempleton|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)</sup>]] 22:37, 14 June 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::I programmed it [[User:Timtempleton/TRIAGE1]] [[User:Timtempleton|<b style="color:#7F007F">TimTempleton</b>]] [[User talk:Timtempleton|<sup style="color:#800080">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Timtempleton|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)</sup>]] 06:28, 4 October 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::::I like it OK, although I must nitpick about the wording in "Contact Wikipedia". As a [[WP:VRT]] volunteer, we get hundreds of emails from people who think that they are addressing someone with an official capacity at the Wikimedia Foundation, not other editors who are volunteering to answer the mails. I wish it could be rephrased as something like "Contact a Wikipedia volunteer for help". It would certainly be more honest than what the current wording implies. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] <small>([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])</small> 19:33, 4 October 2022 (UTC) |
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== Declined new article submissions == |
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Seems to me like there are more and more discussions here lately from users who are asking about declined article submissions. While [[WP:BITE]] definitely applies, as many of these users are new or newish, it seems to me that the Tea house is not really the right venue to go into declined submissions in a lot of detail (of the type, "How do I fix my Draft so I can submit it?") It's a balancing act, especially since we want to be helpful to newer editors, but as much as possible, I think we should gently refer them to the reviews on the Draft itself, and let them work it out via the normal submission process. There's quite a backlog at present, and to some extent it may be impatience, [[WP:FORUMSHOPPING]], or just an earnest request. Not sure what others think about this. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 07:14, 28 July 2022 (UTC) |
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:{{u|Mathglot}}, I certainly do not think that Teahouse hosts should be ''expected'' to offer detailed advice about every draft that comes along. However, if I find a draft interesting or illustrative for good or bad reasons, I will often offer detailed comments and source analysis and certainly do not want to be discouraged from doing so. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 07:22, 28 July 2022 (UTC) |
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:: {{re|Cullen328}} Thanks. You're not worried about "jumping the line" issues? I see comments all the time at drafts waiting for action about "being patient" because of the large backlog. It just seems somewhat like punishing those who are following the rules. But I see your point about not discouraging certain kinds of content at TH, and in particular, the "be kind to newbies" is the strongest reason, imho, to go ahead and answer. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 07:29, 28 July 2022 (UTC) |
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:::{{u|Mathglot}}, there is no line or queue, and AFC is entirely optional for most editors. Reviewers work in no particular order and tend to select drafts about topics that interest them or are obviously promising or obviously inappropriate. Our goal should always be to improve the encyclopedia, and if someone cones to the Teahouse with an excellent draft, I will accept it and maybe improve it myself instead of saying "wait for weeks or months". [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 16:07, 28 July 2022 (UTC) |
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:::: Sounds good; thanks for the clarification. [[User:Mathglot|Mathglot]] ([[User talk:Mathglot|talk]]) 18:31, 28 July 2022 (UTC) |
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:Isn't there an [[Wikipedia:AFC Help Desk|AFC help desk]]? It might be better to point users with drafts there before here with decline talk messages. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu 🐲</span>]] ( [[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]] ) 18:50, 28 July 2022 (UTC) |
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::Again, {{u|Tenryuu|}}, AFC is ''entirely optional'' for almost all editors, and many experienced editors consider the whole AFC process deeply flawed. So why should Teahouse hosts direct Teahouse visitors to that morass, instead of offering a frank analysis of a draft if they freely choose to do so? Our job is to move acceptable encyclopedic content into the encyclopedia, not to further clog the already clogged AFC process. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 04:29, 29 July 2022 (UTC) |
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:::@[[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]]: Never ''once'' did I say anything to the contrary on the optionality of the AFC process. What I'm talking about are the messages that users get on their talk pages when their drafts (which would mean that they've elected to go the AFC route) are declined, which suggests asking at the Teahouse, which I presume would have far fewer AFC regulars than the AFC help desk. I am ''suggesting'' that the target venue mentioned from the Teahouse to that specialised help desk. This seems to be built in to the AFCH script. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu 🐲</span>]] ( [[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]] ) 05:04, 29 July 2022 (UTC) |
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::::@[[User:Tenryuu|Tenryuu]], you're right. I'd support this idea. @[[User:Primefac|Primefac]] would definitely have better ideas on this! ─ [[User:TheAafi|<span style="color:SteelBlue">The Aafī</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:TheAafi|<span style="color:#80A0FF"><sup>(talk)</sup></span>]]</sup> 06:05, 29 July 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::@[[User:TheAafi|TheAafi]]: Much appreciated. I feel somewhat bad for these newcomers when they come and ask questions to Teahouse regulars who are probably able to help them less than actual reviewers. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu 🐲</span>]] ( [[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]] ) 06:28, 29 July 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::For the record, {{t|AfC decline}} (which is placed on the user's talk page for declined drafts) links to the AFC Help Desk and IRC, ''not'' the Teahouse. [[WP:AFCH|AFCH]] does give the option to "invite the user to the Teahouse" as well, so that is likely where they are getting their Teahouse link. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 08:47, 29 July 2022 (UTC) {{ppor}} |
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:::::::@[[User:Primefac|Primefac]]: I see what you mean looking at a sample decline message on a user's talk page. It seems a more likely suspect is {{tlu|Wikipedia:Teahouse/AfC Invitation}} ({{a note}} its talk page redirects here), which prominently displays the link to the Teahouse. Hmm, perhaps a new discussion should be started on its usefulness then... —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu 🐲</span>]] ( [[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]] ) 20:12, 30 July 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::::Could be that we just need to make the ''other'' in bold as well? I know no one actually reads banners, but it does state that if you have something ''other'' to ask besides the draft issues to go to the Teahouse. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 11:11, 31 July 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::::::It probably doesn't help that there's a Teahouse image on the left-hand side, which might cause users to assume that that is the general place to go ask for help with drafts. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu 🐲</span>]] ( [[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]] ) 11:35, 31 July 2022 (UTC) |
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:The thing is that "how do I fix my draft so it gets approved" is both a bad question to ask and answer. Mostly because it shows that we aren't doing a great job of telling people in the guides. And linking someone to a guide just feels like a cheap-out, so it really does just lead to a lot of hosts saying the same things over and over. Heck, Cullen's been doing it for years now! [[User talk:Casualdejekyll|<span style="color:#E6007A">casualdejekyll</span>]] 16:54, 25 August 2022 (UTC) |
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::Yeah. Ideally, reviewers of drafts would offer more specific, more actionable feedback when declining drafts, and editors trying to get a draft accepted would put in the effort to follow reasonable/clear feedback rather than just coming to us out of a combo of forum shopping/hoping we'll work on improvements for them/etc. But neither of those two elements are in place. If we're going to have a dedicated AfC help desk, I think it makes sense for all related notices to direct folks there to help centralize things and get questions to the editors best equipped to answer them. The AfC desk could have a link to the Teahouse in its instructions at the top, but I don't think other notices need to link to us. <span style="color:#AAA"><small>{{u|</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}}</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 05:22, 9 September 2022 (UTC) |
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== What happens if someone tries to delete the Teahouse? == |
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[[File:Do not press button.jpg|thumb|Do not press this button!]] |
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I wanted to see what it would have looked like but that would be vandalism. |
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In the Teahouse archives, I saw a question where a response included saying that <nowiki>{{db-g7}}</nowiki> had to be replaced with something else so it would not appear that someone was trying to delete the Teahouse. The person asking the question had copied whatever was on the user talk page. |
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I assume the person who responded acted before anyone noticed the Teahouse was nominated for deletion. And if the action was noticed elsewhere it might take a while to find where it happened.— [[User:Vchimpanzee|<span style="color:#070">Vchimpanzee</span>]] • [[User talk:Vchimpanzee|<span style="color:#aa4400"> talk</span>]] • [[Special:Contribs/Vchimpanzee|<span style="color:#700">contributions</span>]] • 19:47, 1 August 2022 (UTC) |
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:It would require a Steward for actual deletion because there are too many revisions. Placing a tag on it does the same thing it would on any other page. [[User:Praxidicae|<span style="color: white; font-weight: bold; background: linear-gradient(red, orange, green, blue, indigo, violet)">PRAXIDICAE🌈</span>]] 19:49, 1 August 2022 (UTC) |
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:Also, importantly, I can't imagine that any current administrators would have actually tried to delete the Teahouse just because a new user had tagged it for deletion. [[User:Samwalton9|'''S'''am '''W'''alton]] ([[User talk:Samwalton9|talk]]) 19:52, 1 August 2022 (UTC) |
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::I think what I'm asking is what would happen that would cause such administrators to see this was being "proposed" before that person realized, "Wait! That's the Teahouse! Can't do that!"— [[User:Vchimpanzee|<span style="color:#070">Vchimpanzee</span>]] • [[User talk:Vchimpanzee|<span style="color:#aa4400"> talk</span>]] • [[Special:Contribs/Vchimpanzee|<span style="color:#700">contributions</span>]] • 22:00, 1 August 2022 (UTC) |
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:::{{tl|db-g7}} is Author requests deletion. Even if an administrator didn't already know the Teahouse, it's hard to imagine any administrator would delete a large project space page with a g7 tag without checking that the tag was placed by the sole author of the page. Administrators are supposed to always check that. They might be sloppy with a user sandbox but the Teahouse? No way. I'm an administrator so I may be biased but I doubt there has ever been a g7 deletion of an important page. [[User:PrimeHunter|PrimeHunter]] ([[User talk:PrimeHunter|talk]]) 23:46, 1 August 2022 (UTC) |
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::::...although wasn't there was one admin who fairly recently got de-sysopped for a long-term history of very term sloppy CSD work, if I remember rightly? [[User:Nick Moyes|Nick Moyes]] ([[User talk:Nick Moyes|talk]]) 09:31, 2 August 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::There may be a better place to ask this question, but how would that administrator know the g7 tag was there?— [[User:Vchimpanzee|<span style="color:#070">Vchimpanzee</span>]] • [[User talk:Vchimpanzee|<span style="color:#aa4400"> talk</span>]] • [[Special:Contribs/Vchimpanzee|<span style="color:#700">contributions</span>]] • 22:03, 2 August 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::@[[User:Vchimpanzee|Vchimpanzee]] All pages currently containing any form of speedy deletion template (including ones added by their creators) can be found at [[:Category:Candidates for speedy deletion]] [[User:Nick Moyes|Nick Moyes]] ([[User talk:Nick Moyes|talk]]) 22:14, 2 August 2022 (UTC) |
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I don't think it's that easy because if a article is nominated for deletion then you can always reject the decision. Editors should should always have good faith. If I'm correct, it isn't good faith to try to delete the Wikipedia Tea House page. [[User:Cwater1|Cwater1]] ([[User talk:Cwater1|talk]]) 07:44, 30 September 2022 (UTC) |
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== Review of FREEE Recycle Article == |
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Hello, Teahouse Volunteers, I recently developed an article on [[FREEE Recycle|FREEE Recycle - Wikipedia]] and moved it to encyclopaedia article page. Kindly help review and edit or proffer suggestions, so it doesn't end up being deleted. Also i was wondering how long an article goes through review before it is published fully on wikipedia. [[User:Dumebiok|Dumebiok]] ([[User talk:Dumebiok|talk]]) 13:51, 12 September 2022 (UTC) |
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:Please go to the [[WP:TEAHOUSE|main teahouse page]] to ask for help, not this talk page. This talk page is for discussing how the Teahouse is run and maintained. [[User:Rob3512|<span style="color:green;font-weight:bold">Rob3512</span>]] ([[User talk:Rob3512|<span style="color:blue">Talk</span>]]) 15:08, 12 September 2022 (UTC) |
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== Upcoming WMF fundraising campaign == |
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Hello everyone, |
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My name is Julia and I am the Community Relations person at the WMF Advancement Department which includes the fundraising team. As you might be [[Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)/Archive 70#Wikimedia Foundation English fundraising campaign|aware]] the WMF will be launching the English Wikipedia banner fundraising campaign in late November and it will run until the end of December. |
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During last years' campaign, I noticed that you had a lot of people coming to this space with questions, suggestions, and complaints about the campaign. I am trying to help to decrease this kind of traffic this year. I prepared a draft [[Template:DonationBanners|'''Template''']] for you to use. This is a draft so please do add aspects you would like to see in it. Using this template is a suggestion to hopefully make your life here easier in case you get an influx of enquiries during the campaign. I hope it will be useful and if you would like me to make any changes to it, please do let me know. |
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Generally speaking, you can ping me with anything fundraising related and I will come and help! |
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Best, [[User:JBrungs (WMF)|JBrungs (WMF)]] ([[User talk:JBrungs (WMF)|talk]]) 06:59, 5 October 2022 (UTC) |
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:The draft is pretty good. I don't know if it would be practical to mention in the message but the two most common comments we get during a fundraising campaign are probably 1) is there a way to stop seeing them, and 2) I've already donated but I still see them. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 07:22, 5 October 2022 (UTC) |
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::Thank you for the feedback. I added both aspects to the [[Template:DonationBanners|Template]]. Does this make it clearer and addresses the most common questions? [[User:JBrungs (WMF)|JBrungs (WMF)]] ([[User talk:JBrungs (WMF)|talk]]) 07:34, 5 October 2022 (UTC) |
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:::Yeah, I think it does, thank you. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 07:46, 5 October 2022 (UTC) |
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:::I fixed a minor typo; the template looks fine, thanks. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 10:09, 5 October 2022 (UTC) |
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::::The template created last year by the community still works and already had all that information: {{tlsx|HD/Donation}}. Of course, it has a... different tone, let’s say. [[User:Tigraan|<span style="font-family:Tahoma;color:#008000;">Tigraan</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Tigraan|<span title="Send me a silicium letter!" style="color:">Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)</span>]]</sup> 11:23, 5 October 2022 (UTC) |
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== Thoughts about amending the page notice for the Teahouse? == |
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I was scrolling through the Teahouse today and came across [[WP:TEA#Referring to my old help page|this question]], which extended into a comment branch before discovering that the user was using the mobile view that has a different layout. Does anyone think it might be helpful to add {{xt|If you're using the mobile version of Wikipedia, please mention that in your question}} to the page notice that appears when creating a new discussion to head off potential miscommunication? —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu 🐲</span>]] ( [[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]] ) 20:19, 5 October 2022 (UTC) |
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:Hmm. I've only been hanging around the Teahouse a few months now, but I can't think of any other times it's come up; on the other hand, I may've just skipped over those threads because I don't use a mobile interface and generally can't comment on related issues. [[Special:Contributions/199.208.172.35|199.208.172.35]] ([[User talk:199.208.172.35|talk]]) 15:18, 7 October 2022 (UTC) |
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:Maybe. We don't usually get questions relating to the mobile version of Wikipedia. ― [[User:Blaze Wolf|<b style="background:#0d1125;color:#51aeff;padding:1q;border-radius:5q;">Blaze Wolf</b>]][[User talk:Blaze Wolf|<sup>Talk</sup>]]<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze Wolf#6545</sub> 15:23, 7 October 2022 (UTC) |
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::@[[User:Blaze Wolf|Blaze Wolf]]/@[[User:Tenryuu|Tenryuu]] How do we know that {{tq|We don't usually get questions relating to the mobile version of Wikipedia}}? If a user assumes that everyone else is using the same mobile view that they happen to be using, would they think to mention it? I suspect not. So, to that end, a long time ago we added the line "''Mention if you'd like a reply specific to mobile view or the VisualEditor.''" to the 'Ask a Question template. Isn't that sufficient? (Apols for the belated response; I've been rather absent from Wikipedia for the last few months) [[User:Nick Moyes|Nick Moyes]] ([[User talk:Nick Moyes|talk]]) 00:25, 20 November 2022 (UTC) |
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== How to approach a lack of sources? == |
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Hello all, I will first of all disclose that I am new here, so perhaps there are other common practices or otherwise I am missing, if so please tell me as I truly am interested in becoming a meaningful contributor to this website. Anyways, I am trying my best to translate the [[:de:Gerhard_Gerling]] article from the German branch of wikipedia into English. Originally I just wanted to translate the article, but since my draft was rejected for a lack of sources and references I began looking for those, as the original article itself lacked them. My issue then became, however, that the amount of information on this individual was rather sparse in all existing references. What I ended up finding was a biography on the individual commissioned by an independent organization to an independent (but accredited and experienced) biographer, which itself used plenty of official and reputable sources, both government and academic. |
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My question now is, in trying to expand and rewrite this article with the appropriate citations I've found myself nearly solely citing this singular biography, partially out of convenience but primarily out of necessity. I need to ask, is this poor practice? I looked on the article for how to write my first article, and it mentioned that the purpose of Wikipedia is to summarize other quality and reputable articles. I just want to make sure that primarily using this one biography, only sometimes supplemented by others, instead of relying on a variety of sources, won't be frowned upon. [[User:Jazzertyy|Jazzertyy]] ([[User talk:Jazzertyy|talk]]) 12:44, 6 October 2022 (UTC) |
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:{{u|Jazzertyy}} This page is for discussing the operation of the Teahouse, and is not the Teahouse itself. Please post this to the main Teahouse page([[WP:TEAHOUSE]]). [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 12:47, 6 October 2022 (UTC) |
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oh I got the wrong link thanks [[User:Jazzertyy|Jazzertyy]] ([[User talk:Jazzertyy|talk]]) 12:49, 6 October 2022 (UTC) |
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== A self-eval quizz for Teahouse hosts == |
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[[Wikipedia_talk:Teahouse/Archive_25#Inexperienced_editors_answering_questions|Back in January]] I floated the idea of having some sort of evaluation for prospective Teahouse hosts. I gave it a go: [[Wikipedia:Teahouse host training]]. |
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I have not finished writing the answer key but it’s complete enough to see what it would look like. Feel free to edit it or comment. |
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<small>''[[:wikt:rendre à César ce qui est à César|Redde caesari quae sunt caesaris:]]'' My initial suggestion was a test with feedback from current Teahouse hosts. {{U|Nick Moyes}} suggested a self-test instead, which convinced me so thoroughly that somehow I ended up thinking the idea was mine all along. But diffs remember. </small> [[User:Tigraan|<span style="font-family:Tahoma;color:#008000;">Tigraan</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Tigraan|<span title="Send me a silicium letter!" style="color:">Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)</span>]]</sup> 12:17, 19 October 2022 (UTC) |
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:<small><s>Ahhhh! Latin!</s></small> Taking a quick look at it, it actually looks pretty good, tho I would remove the "how do I desysop an admin" one since I've never seen anyone complain about an admin here (i've seen people complain about admins at [[WP:HD]] tho). I would assume you look through some of the archives to see what some of the most common questions were. ― [[User:Blaze Wolf|<b style="background:#0d1125;color:#51aeff;padding:1q;border-radius:5q;">Blaze Wolf</b>]][[User talk:Blaze Wolf|<sup>Talk</sup>]]<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze Wolf#6545</sub> 13:10, 19 October 2022 (UTC) |
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::I went looking through the latest archive. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Teahouse&diff=prev&oldid=1116046887 It’s a real question]. The point is that one should not answer the question directly, but investigate the user, since the question reeks of trolling/sockpuppetry. [[User:Tigraan|<span style="font-family:Tahoma;color:#008000;">Tigraan</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Tigraan|<span title="Send me a silicium letter!" style="color:">Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)</span>]]</sup> 13:21, 19 October 2022 (UTC) |
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:::Huh that's actually really interesting. But I do agree that if I saw that, I would initially check the user's contribs, mainly to see what admin they are referring to, but also to see if they're simply refusing to understand the rules or if they seem to know the rules but are deliberately disobeying them. ― [[User:Blaze Wolf|<b style="background:#0d1125;color:#51aeff;padding:1q;border-radius:5q;">Blaze Wolf</b>]][[User talk:Blaze Wolf|<sup>Talk</sup>]]<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze Wolf#6545</sub> 13:45, 19 October 2022 (UTC) |
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::::I remember seeing "How do I take action against a horrible rouge admin?!" asked more than once (in various different ways). I don't think a "background investigation" has ever turned out well for the inquirer... [[Special:Contributions/199.208.172.35|199.208.172.35]] ([[User talk:199.208.172.35|talk]]) 16:47, 19 October 2022 (UTC) |
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::::<small>Heh, {{tq|9 Dodecacember 2047 (Mars standard time)}} [[Special:Contributions/199.208.172.35|199.208.172.35]] ([[User talk:199.208.172.35|talk]]) 16:55, 19 October 2022 (UTC)</small> |
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:@[[User:Tigraan|Tigraan]] You pinged me back in October, but I have not been able to be active here for the last few months - sorry. Your draft 'self-test' is an interesting idea, but very much a skeletal 'work in progress', so might perhaps have been better kept as a userspace draft until a lot more advanced. I've added a few lines to make that clearer. |
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:I seriously advise removing all signatures and date stamps of other editors' questions. Not only does it make it look like a talk page, but it's not really OK to make it look as though those editors are asking those questions, or, indeed, to embarrass them. A simple copy of a genuine question might be OK (use an edit summary to acknowledge the source), assuming it had some worthwhile responses. In which case, by all means then simply link to the archived question and answers. But that link should just form part of the self-checking answer. I can't offer more comments as there isn't really enough content at this stage, but the idea is a sound one in principle. I started working on something similar, related to [[WP:ORFA]], which you can see in its still-unfinished form, [[User:Nick Moyes/Wiki SkillCheck|here]]. Cheers, [[User:Nick Moyes|Nick Moyes]] ([[User talk:Nick Moyes|talk]]) 01:02, 20 November 2022 (UTC) |
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== |
== Talkback script == |
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So, I've installed the talkback script, and am getting into the habit of using it—but I do note that it asks for the question to be reentered—it seems possible that this could be done automatically, since the button is in the context of a header on the page regardless. I assume this has been discussed before?<span id="Remsense:1704523741085:Wikipedia_talkFTTCLNTeahouse" class="FTTCmt"> [[User:Remsense|<span style="border-radius:2px 0 0 2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F;color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]][[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="border:1px solid #1E816F;border-radius:0 2px 2px 0;padding:1px 3px;color:#000">留</span>]] 06:49, 6 January 2024 (UTC)</span> |
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Would it be possible to create a variation of the Teahosue AFC invitation for when a user's draft is rejected? Declined is very different from rejected as with Declined the user can submit it again however if it's rejected the user cannot submit it again. ― [[User:Blaze Wolf|<b style="background:#0d1125;color:#51aeff;padding:1q;border-radius:5q;">Blaze Wolf</b>]][[User talk:Blaze Wolf|<sup>Talk</sup>]]<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze Wolf#6545</sub> 16:14, 1 November 2022 (UTC) |
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:You're referring to [[User:Qwerfjkl/scripts/talkback]]? I haven't used that script and aren't too familiar with it, but you could share suggestions with the script's author, Qwerfjkl. |
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:@[[User:Blaze Wolf|Blaze Wolf]] As far as I know, the current "decline" templates invite users to the AFD Help Desk, not the Teahouse. See [[User_talk:Willajayne]] for an example. They suggest the Teahouse for ''any other questions about editing''. I'm not sure whether we should be encouraging editors whose draft is rejected to do anything, as that would only get us into arguments over lost causes. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 11:46, 19 November 2022 (UTC) |
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:Putting talkbacks on users' talk pages has become less important now that the [[WP:Talk pages project]] has rolled out the subscription feature, which makes it so that editors will now automatically be notified about replies to threads they start at the Teahouse, even if we forget to ping them (which we always should, since it'll result in a bolder red notification rather than a blue one). A talkback will still give them the orange bar, which is the most noticeable of all, but I don't tend to bother with it unless I see someone continuing a behavior seemingly unaware of a response at the Teahouse. In our role educating editors about how Wikipedia works, we should be modeling normal pinging behavior, and talkbacks aren't used anywhere else these days. <span style="color:#AAA"><small>{{u|</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}}</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 07:00, 6 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::That makes sense, thank you—I {{em|did}} feel the TB was a bit of a "making extra extra sure" gesture—I just wanted to make sure I was acting inline with expectations in the Teahouse host guidelines. Perhaps they should be tweaked to reflect this? [[User:Remsense|<span style="border-radius:2px 0 0 2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F;color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]][[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="border:1px solid #1E816F;border-radius:0 2px 2px 0;padding:1px 3px;color:#000">留</span>]] 10:34, 6 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Yes, I'd support that. <span style="color:#AAA"><small>{{u|</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}}</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 20:27, 6 January 2024 (UTC) |
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== Is the Teahouse targeting women? == |
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== Section heading should not start with "[" and end with "]" == |
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From the link on the Teahouse page, I was reading https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Teahouse, where it says {{tpq|Although the project will welcome all good faith new users, women are a particular target population.}} Is this true? I have been a Teahouse regular for many years and I have never seen anything at the Teahouse or anywhere else on Wikipedia that suggests it is targeting women users, only that it is supposed to be friendly for any new user. Was this a goal at one time that has since been dropped, or is there something I am missing that encourages women to come to the Teahouse? |
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I discovered that messed up a notification template.— [[User:Vchimpanzee|<span style="color:#070">Vchimpanzee</span>]] • [[User talk:Vchimpanzee|<span style="color:#aa4400"> talk</span>]] • [[Special:Contribs/Vchimpanzee|<span style="color:#700">contributions</span>]] • 00:33, 19 November 2022 (UTC) |
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[[User:RudolfRed|RudolfRed]] ([[User talk:RudolfRed|talk]]) 20:17, 16 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:@[[User:RudolfRed|RudolfRed]]: I noted that the phrase "women are a particular target population" was in the original version of the Wikimedia page from 29 November 2011. I'm not aware of people making a special effort now to encourage women in particular to come to the Teahouse (but there are many things of which I'm not aware). [[User:GoingBatty|GoingBatty]] ([[User talk:GoingBatty|talk]]) 20:38, 16 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:The Teahouse arose out of a bunch of Foundation research on welcoming new users; the version that operates today has evolved a lot from that. Wanting to welcome women may have influenced some of the earlier decisions, such as the Teahouse's visual design. Today, I think the friendliness approach we take is naturally more likely to aid female editors who come here, given that women are less likely to endure hostile online environments than men. I also know that when culling the list of active Teahouse hosts in the past, we've given a bit more leniency to female hosts. Trying to make the Teahouse welcoming to women should be something we always have in mind as we try to fight systemic bias, but it dovetails pretty well with the things we do to make it welcoming for folks of all genders. Cheers, <span style="color:#AAA"><small>{{u|</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}}</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 20:42, 16 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::"Today, I think the friendliness approach we take is naturally more likely to aid female editors who come here, '''given that women are less likely to endure hostile online environments than men."''' Not true. |
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::"I also know that when culling the list of active Teahouse hosts in the past, we've '''given a bit more leniency''' to female hosts." Care to elaborate? [[User:Biolitblue|Biolitblue]] ([[User talk:Biolitblue|talk]]) 01:03, 17 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:[[User:RudolfRed|RudolfRed]], while it is old verbiage, I do agree with Sdkb on the benefits offering a variety of social approaches may potentially have for editors of different genders.<span id="Remsense:1705448400041:Wikipedia_talkFTTCLNTeahouse" class="FTTCmt"> — [[User:Remsense|<span style="border-radius:2px 0 0 2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F;color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]][[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="border:1px solid #1E816F;border-radius:0 2px 2px 0;padding:1px 3px;color:#000">诉</span>]] 23:40, 16 January 2024 (UTC)</span> |
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: Thanks, everyone, for the replies. [[User:RudolfRed|RudolfRed]] ([[User talk:RudolfRed|talk]]) 04:01, 17 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::I was thinking it was a vandalism leftover, as a woman myself, it really confuses me, and I think it should be removed as to promote neutrality and/or positivity among all groups. [[User:Cometkeiko|Cometkeiko]] ([[User talk:Cometkeiko|talk]]) 12:24, 17 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:::[[User:Cometkeiko|Cometkeiko]], this seems perfectly reasonable, especially as it's not contingent to the goals of the Teahouse at present. I would be interested in hearing more from others about removing the passage.<span id="Remsense:1705494425204:Wikipedia_talkFTTCLNTeahouse" class="FTTCmt"> — [[User:Remsense|<span style="border-radius:2px 0 0 2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F;color:#fff">'''Remsense'''</span>]][[User talk:Remsense|<span lang="zh" style="border:1px solid #1E816F;border-radius:0 2px 2px 0;padding:1px 3px;color:#000">诉</span>]] 12:27, 17 January 2024 (UTC)</span> |
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::::I think the meta page is at this point largely a historical report document indicating how the foundation thought about the Teahouse c. 2012. I wouldn't be opposed with a notice at the top indicating that more clearly, but I don't think it'd be appropriate for us to change it. <span style="color:#AAA"><small>{{u|</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}}</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 15:09, 17 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::::: I don't have an issue with it staying as is. --[[User:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b76e79">'''A'''</span><span style="color:#be4f60">'''Rose'''</span>]][[User talk:ARoseWolf|<span style="color:#b87333">'''Wolf'''</span>]] 16:28, 17 January 2024 (UTC) |
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== A barnstar for you! == |
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==Wikipedia is not interested== |
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I repeatedly read |
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{| style="border: 1px solid gray; background-color: #fdffe7;" |
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:Wikipedia is not interested in what the subject of an article says or wants to say about themselves, or what their associates say about them. Wikipedia is only interested in what people who have no connection with the subject, and who have not been prompted or fed information on behalf of the subject, have chosen to publish about the subject in reliable sources. |
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|rowspan="2" style="vertical-align:middle;" | {{#ifeq:{{{2}}}|alt|[[File:Brilliant Idea Barnstar Hires.png|100px]]|[[File:"What a Brilliant Idea!" Barnstar.png|100px]]}} |
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|rowspan="2" | |
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|style="font-size: x-large; padding: 0; vertical-align: middle; height: 1.1em;" | '''What a Brilliant Idea Barnstar''' |
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|- |
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|style="vertical-align: middle; border-top: 1px solid gray;" | For encouraging thousands of new editors to become a contributor to Wikipedia. The Teahouse is a million dollar idea. Seriously. [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 16:29, 19 January 2024 (UTC) |
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|} |
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:Thanks, @[[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]], but wouldn't this be a bit better placed on the talk page? [[Special:Contributions/57.140.16.1|57.140.16.1]] ([[User talk:57.140.16.1|talk]]) 17:17, 19 January 2024 (UTC) |
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or minor variations thereof. |
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::(And now it is on the talk page, due to MAGIC {{emoji|1F609}}) [[Special:Contributions/57.140.16.1|57.140.16.1]] ([[User talk:57.140.16.1|talk]]) 17:34, 19 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:::-:-) [[User:CactiStaccingCrane|CactiStaccingCrane]] ([[User talk:CactiStaccingCrane|talk]]) 02:37, 20 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:Brilliant idea indeed, but I thought barnstars are for users. [[User:Abdullah raji|Abdullah raji]] ([[User talk:Abdullah raji|talk]]) 13:17, 31 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::I remember that a very long Wiki-time ago (in about 2006 or so), a group received a "WikiMedal for janitorial services" (I was one of them). Not a barnstar per se, but I always took it that if an award is given to a group, everyone involved (say, Teahouse hosts) have been awarded the recognition. [[User:Lectonar|Lectonar]] ([[User talk:Lectonar|talk]]) 14:49, 31 January 2024 (UTC) |
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== Bot inoperable == |
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"Featured articles", at the time of their featuredom, presumably satisfy interested inquisitors. Right now it's "[[I Drink Wine]]", a song that, we read, is sung/recorded/whatever (lipsunk?) by Adele. Within it: |
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It [[Wikipedia:Teahouse#No_more_archive_messages|appears]] that the bot that leaves talk page notifications that Teahouse threads have been <s>active</s> archived has gone inoperable, and the operator hasn't been around in a few months. Would anyone be interested in taking over the task or filing [[WP:BOTREQ|a request]] for it to be taken over? <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:100% Lucida Sans">Sdkb</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 19:32, 15 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:[Adele] viewed "I Drink Wine" as reminiscent of the work of Elton John and Bernie Taupin, and wrote it for herself and a friend during a time when she was taking things too personally. The song's lyrics were Adele's attempt to explain why she needed to mature to be more available in their friendship. |
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:For the curious, Tigraan noted back in November 2022 at [[User talk:Tigraan/Archive 3#Problem with Teahouse notification template]] that {{tq|The server [Muninnbot] was running on was shut down and I am supposed to migrate the tool to another one, but I procrastinated doing that. (No promise about when I will fix it.)}} [[User:Rotideypoc41352|Rotideypoc41352]] ([[User talk:Rotideypoc41352|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Rotideypoc41352|contribs]]) 23:30, 15 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Tigraan#Muninnbot:_Digging_Teahouse_archive_links_failure [[User:Nick Moyes|Nick Moyes]] ([[User talk:Nick Moyes|talk]]) 00:37, 16 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:::To keep discussion on one place, I notified [[WP:BOTREQ]] of the existing discussion here. [[User:Rotideypoc41352|Rotideypoc41352]] ([[User talk:Rotideypoc41352|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Rotideypoc41352|contribs]]) 02:13, 23 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:Maintainer: {{u|Tigraan}} (inactive 4 months) |
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:Bot: {{u|Muninnbot}} |
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:Source code: https://gitlab.com/Tigraan/Teahouse-bot/-/blob/master/scripts/teahouse_archival_bot.py |
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:BRFA: [[Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Muninnbot]] |
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:Toolforge account: [https://toolhub.wikimedia.org/tools/toolforge-muninnbot Muninnbot] –[[User:Novem Linguae|<span style="color:blue">'''Novem Linguae'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Novem Linguae|talk]])</small> 04:59, 23 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::If what is needed is someone to run and maintain the bot could a current bot op take over the task with the same code on a new bot account? [[User:Geardona|Geardona]] ([[User talk:Geardona|talk to me?]]) 12:14, 23 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::@[[User:Novem Linguae|Novem Linguae]], is the old source code still functional? – [[User:DreamRimmer|<b style="color:black; font-family: Tahoma">DreamRimmer</b>]] ('''[[User talk:DreamRimmer|talk]]''') 15:19, 23 February 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Not sure. I think the next step is someone needs to do [[wikitech:Help:Toolforge/Abandoned tool policy]]. –[[User:Novem Linguae|<span style="color:blue">'''Novem Linguae'''</span>]] <small>([[User talk:Novem Linguae|talk]])</small> 19:16, 23 February 2024 (UTC) |
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::::I've notified Tigraan on their talk pages and via email, as required by the policy :) [[User:Frostly|Frostly]] ([[User talk:Frostly|talk]]) 18:45, 1 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::Courtesy link: [[User talk:Tigraan#Muninnbot]] ([[Special:Permalink/1212099444#Muninnbot|permalink]] just in case). [[User:Rotideypoc41352|Rotideypoc41352]] ([[User talk:Rotideypoc41352|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Rotideypoc41352|contribs]]) 04:42, 8 March 2024 (UTC) |
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*Hi folks, bot operator here. Thanks for the notification. I would like to get back to Wikipedia contributions and Muninnbot, but honestly I am not sure I can make that promise due to real-life events. I can however promise to stay around and answer queries in the next couple of weeks or so. |
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:What stopped the bot was the migration of Toolforge server. I was supposed to move to the new server, but did not. (Just to be clear: I am not blaming the migration team, the messages were perfectly clear about what ought to be done and by what time.) The code itself should be still working. I have not tested, so changes to dependencies (deprecations etc.) could have broken it; but at least it’s worth a shot. Note also that it has a [[dead man’s switch]], running a couple of unit tests before posting notifications all around, and stopping if any of those fail; that is not guaranteed to catch every bug of course, but it will catch some of them. Looking at the code, it certainly is not perfect but it aged way better than my other years-old projects did. All the important Python code is in [https://gitlab.com/Tigraan/Teahouse-bot/-/blob/master/scripts/teahouse_archival_bot.py?ref_type=heads this Python file], which should be run via a cron job. |
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:The only problem I can envision to getting it back up is the one described at [[User:Muninnbot/doc#Race_condition_with_lowercase_sigmabot_III]]: as it stands, the script must be run exactly once between two archival runs, else notifications are missed or duplicated. Back when I set it up, LS3 ran once every day around 5:00UTC, hence just running the bot once a day at a time different from that worked. However, looking at the TH history right now I can see timestamps at various points around the clock. This may be buggy behavior from LS3 ([[User_talk:Σ]] seems to mention issues with the bot), but I do not think "runs every day at the same time" was ever a promise made by that bot, so relying on it is not good software design anyway. Fixing it would require development but should not be too hard (simple fix off the top of my head: have a log file that contains the ID of the last LS3 edit to be processed, process every LS3 edit that occurred after that one, update the log). |
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:So... next steps that I see: |
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:#(done) <s>Anyone interested in becoming co-maintainer ({{U|Frostly}}, {{U|usernamekiran}}, any others?) files the Toolforge paperwork for adopting the tool. Feel free to link to this post as proof I did not object. I will also specifically say that access to the Toolforge for the tool should include access to secrets therein (I am 90% sure there should be an OAuth token to post as {{U|Muninnbot}}, but without it you cannot really run the bot).</s> |
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:#(Optional but highly recommended) the same people send me a gitlab ID so I can add them on the gitlab repo (create an account beforehand if needed). Either here, on my user talk page, or [[Special:EmailUser/Tigraan|via email]] if you prefer (note that project members on public gitlab repos are public though, so there’s not much privacy point in using email). |
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:#The same people add themselves at the places they ought to ([[User:Muninnbot]] for instance?) |
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:#Someone (the first one to code it I guess) fixes the LS3 issue mentioned above |
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:#Someone (the first one to cron it I guess) puts the bot back online at Toolforge |
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:If it was me, I would mildly prefer doing #4 before doing #5, but honestly I could imagine myself [[YOLO]]ing it. If you do so, watch over the LS3 edits for a couple of days. |
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:I would imagine the BRFA is still valid - although technically the bot has not edited for two years, it was not due to a change of consensus, and I see no opposition to restarting it in the discussion here. Of course anyone is free to object at any point. |
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:That should cover it. Any issues with that plan, questions etc.? [[User:Tigraan|<span style="font-family:Tahoma;color:#008000;">Tigraan</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Tigraan|<span title="Send me a silicium letter!" style="color:">Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)</span>]]</sup> 19:35, 9 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::thanks for theresponse {{u|Tigraan}}. I have only one doubt. I'm not sure if OAuth is required with pywikibot. Years ago when I setup my tool/bot, to post as {{u|KiranBOT II}}, all I had to do was create BotPassword, and use it in the config file. Regarding other stuff, I'll respond in 18ish hours. Courtesy ping to {{U|Frostly}}. —usernamekiran [[User talk:usernamekiran|(talk)]] 20:22, 9 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::Thanks so much for the reply, [[User:Tigraan|Tigraan]]!<br style="margin-bottom:0.5em"/>The easiest / least bureaucratic way to accomplish #1 would be to add myself and [[User:usernamekiran|usernamekiran]] as maintainers in the [https://toolsadmin.wikimedia.org Toolforge admin console]. My Toolforge username is EpicPupper (it was my previous Wikimedia username); usernamekiran's looks like it's the same.<br style="margin-bottom:0.5em"/>Re #2, my GitLab username is "frost-ly". Long-term, I'd love to potentially migrate the project to [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/GitLab Wikimedia's instance] of GitLab.<br style="margin-bottom:0.5em"/>There's a new [[wikitech:Help:Toolforge/Jobs framework|Toolforge jobs framework]] that "replaces" cron, which is probably the best-practice way to get the bot up and running again.<br style="margin-bottom:0.5em"/>I agree that the BRFA is likely still valid :)<br style="margin-bottom:0.5em"/>Looking forward to hearing usernamekiran's perspective.<br style="margin-bottom:0.5em"/>Cheers,<span id="Frostly:1710040442834:Wikipedia_talkFTTCLNTeahouse" class="FTTCmt"> — [[User:Frostly|Frostly]] ([[User talk:Frostly|talk]]) 03:14, 10 March 2024 (UTC)</span> |
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:::I have added you both on the Toolforge admin account, and frost-ly on Gitlab. |
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:::I have not yet logged back on Toolforge to dust off the furniture (new computer, I will need to dig to retrieve the SSH keys). I should be able to do so later this week though. [[User:Tigraan|<span style="font-family:Tahoma;color:#008000;">Tigraan</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Tigraan|<span title="Send me a silicium letter!" style="color:">Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)</span>]]</sup> 19:48, 12 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::::{{re|Frostly|Usernamekiran|Tigraan}} hi! Hope you all are well. Just out of curiosity, is this ongoing? Thanks, [[User:Rotideypoc41352|Rotideypoc41352]] ([[User talk:Rotideypoc41352|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contribs/Rotideypoc41352|contribs]]) 17:48, 13 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::{{re|Rotideypoc41352}} Hi, apologies, I thought this one was taken care of. I will be busy for 40ish hours from now. But this will be the first thing I will take a look at as soon as I get time. —usernamekiran [[User talk:usernamekiran|(talk)]] 17:54, 13 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:::::{{re|Rotideypoc41352}} I just logged in to the bot's account on toolforge. @Tigraan, and Frostly: I have created a file named "usernamekiran.log" in root directory. I will soon look into the cronjob issue, and I will keep you guys posted. —usernamekiran [[User talk:usernamekiran|(talk)]] 19:50, 13 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::::[[User:Usernamekiran|Usernamekiran]], thank you! Will take a look into the bot as well.<span id="Frostly:1716254147624:Wikipedia_talkFTTCLNTeahouse" class="FTTCmt"> — [[User:Frostly|Frostly]] ([[User talk:Frostly|talk]]) 01:15, 21 May 2024 (UTC)</span> |
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:::@[[User:Usernamekiran|Usernamekiran]] @[[User:Frostly|Frostly]] You should be able to use botpasswords and OAuth on Toolforge. Tho OAuth in my experience is relatively easier to setup with custom containers. I run a cross-wiki(source) bot with a similar cronjob configuration in the <code>wsstats</code> account on the new Toolforge infrastructure. (The code for my bot is at https://github.com/sohomdatta1/wsstats.git feel free to copy over parts of the boilerplate code if you want). [[User:Sohom Datta|<b style="color:#795cb2;">Sohom</b>]] ([[User talk:Sohom Datta|<span style="color: #36c;">talk</span>]]) 05:17, 21 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::{{re|Sohom Datta}} Hi. Using OAuth, I was able to login to enwiki with Muninnbot on the first attempt, but I am getting an error with the script. I tried to fix it, but couldnt. I have mailed Tigraan, hopefully they will respond soon. —usernamekiran [[User talk:usernamekiran|(talk)]] 11:17, 22 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== Teahouse Hosts! == |
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:Adele revealed that three songs were in contention for release as the lead single, including one she described as "very sort of '70s, like piano, singer-songwriter-y, [with] a whole band on it, but just very Carpenters, like very Elton". |
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Is Teahouse Host a formal position here, like Administrator? Or is it more like Editor in Wikipedia at large, referring to anybody who ever comments on a question (or adds a comma to an article)? [[User:AzseicsoK|Uporządnicki]] ([[User talk:AzseicsoK|talk]]) 15:05, 1 March 2024 (UTC) |
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I sense that the "not interested" stuff above is a little overdone. <small>[Pinging {{U|ColinFine}}]</small>-- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 09:01, 19 November 2022 (UTC) |
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:That is mostly directed at people attempting to write about themselves, people they work for, or their company, not quoting an article subject in an article. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 09:33, 19 November 2022 (UTC) |
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:You repeatedly read it because two years ago I put it in a template, {{tl|HD/WINI}}, when I got fed up with typing the same message. Perhaps it is overdone - anybody's welcome to tweak the template. [[User:ColinFine|ColinFine]] ([[User talk:ColinFine|talk]]) 11:03, 19 November 2022 (UTC) |
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:Slightly in between — there's a listing at [[WP:Teahouse/Hosts]], which is the sense in which it's formal, but anyone can help respond to queries. <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:1em Lucida Sans">Sdkb</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 15:09, 1 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::Well, how about, say: |
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:I haven't joined the official list because I don't want to feel an obligation to contribute regularly. There are several regular contributors who are not on the list and a few that ''are'' on the list but almost never contribute. Nick Moyes occasionally removes those who have stopped contributing. The only important requirements for contributors, IMO, is that their answers are largely accurate and made politely. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 16:08, 1 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Wikipedia has minimal interest in what the subject of an article says or wants to say about themselves, or what their associates say about them (none of which can count towards notability). Wikipedia is interested in what people who have no connection with the subject, and who have not been prompted or fed information on behalf of the subject, have chosen to publish about the subject in reliable sources. |
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:I believe it's a holdover from when the Teahouse was first established, but the concept doesn't hold any significance as to who may answer questions, so long as said answers are accurate, courteous, and helpful. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu 🐲</span>]] ( [[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]] ) 18:18, 1 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::though that's only a first bash and surely can be improved. (And apropos of what surely can be improved, "she needed to mature to be more available in their friendship": eh, what?) -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 12:03, 19 November 2022 (UTC) |
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:@[[User:AzseicsoK|AzseicsoK]] As has been said, it's a very informal title which people who do feel they help out here quite a lot here might wish to give themselves. But anyone is free to answer other users' questions at any time without signing up as a Host (so long as they give helpful answers!). I regard it is a very good first step for some editors who are becoming interested in some of the ''behind-the-scenes'' administration and support work to do. That's probably how I started my own journey to becoming an admin when @[[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] suggested I participated here as a Host. It taught me so much (and I'm still learning from other people's answers to this day) |
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::Adele writing about a song she sings is acceptable. Adele writing about Adele's rendering of the song is probably not. [[User:Maproom|Maproom]] ([[User talk:Maproom|talk]]) 12:25, 19 November 2022 (UTC) |
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:All that said, a very tiny number of editors do occasionally sign themselves up as a 'Host' for the wrong reasons (see [[WP:HATCOLLECT]] or [[WP:CIR]]) and they do get removed in due course, as do those who have never made much - or any - contribution here, or have got themselves blocked or regularly warned for inappropriate behaviour. The key things any Host needs is to be polite, patient, helpful and welcoming. |
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:You will find a tiny handful of names of editors on the host list who are not actively answering questions nowadays, but have nevertheless played a very significant role in the establishment and running of the Teahouse in the past, or who still do research or bot-related activities here. I hope this additional info is of interest. [[User:Nick Moyes|Nick Moyes]] ([[User talk:Nick Moyes|talk]]) 20:31, 7 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::{{tq|and I'm still learning from other people's answers to this day}} is probably the most relatable thing here. I've got this place watchlisted primarily to answer questions I feel I can answer, but also just to learn stuff I probably never would've done by contributing anywhere elsewhere. There's such a wide array of questions asked here that you'll never stop learning. [[User:CommissarDoggo|<b style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#fc1008">Commissar</b><b style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff">Doggo</b>]]''[[User talk:CommissarDoggo|<sup style="font-family:Helvetica Neue;color:#0363ff">Talk?</sup>]]'' 22:23, 12 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== Meet your hosts formatting == |
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== Possible FAQ? == |
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In signing up to be a Teahouse host I have managed to mess up the formatting of [[Wikipedia:Teahouse/Hosts|my entry]] (specifically the image). Obligatory {{Self-trout}}. If anyone knows how to retroactively amend this do let me know! '''[[User:Unexpectedlydian|<span style="color:#000000;">Unexpected</span><span style="color:#757575;">lydian<sup>♯4</sup></span>]][[User talk:Unexpectedlydian|<span style="color:#000000;">talk<sup>‽</sup></span>]]''' 22:05, 12 March 2024 (UTC) |
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Has creating an FAQ for the Teahouse ever been considered? I understand that the Teahouse is meant for new users to ask questions which is why there tend to be a lot of the same questions, however have we ever considered making an FAQ to try and reduce the amount of similar questions we receive? I feel that it would make it easier since a new user doesn't have to wait for an answer and instead can check the FAQ for questions that have been repeatedly asked in the past and possibly find the answer to their question. ― [[User:Blaze Wolf|<b style="background:#0d1125;color:#51aeff;padding:1q;border-radius:5q;">Blaze Wolf</b>]][[User talk:Blaze Wolf|<sup>Talk</sup>]]<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze Wolf#6545</sub> 16:50, 28 November 2022 (UTC) |
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:@[[User:Unexpectedlydian|Unexpectedlydian]]: {{fixed}} in [[Special:Diff/1213409630|this edit]]. The template only calls for the file name and nothing else. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu 🐲</span>]] ( [[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]] ) 22:38, 12 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::Amazing, thank you '''[[User:Unexpectedlydian|<span style="color:#000000;">Unexpected</span><span style="color:#757575;">lydian<sup>♯4</sup></span>]][[User talk:Unexpectedlydian|<span style="color:#000000;">talk<sup>‽</sup></span>]]''' 22:39, 12 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== "Publish" vs. "save" == |
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:@[[user:Blaze Wolf|blaze wolf]]: there is the [[WP:FAQ]]. (we should probably link that somewhere...) → [[user:lettherebedarklight|lettherebedarklight]] → [[user talk:lettherebedarklight|晚安]] → [[special:contribs/lettherebedarklight|おやすみ]] → 03:43, 29 November 2022 (UTC) |
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::That's just a list page for the various FAQs on Wikipedia ― [[User:Blaze Wolf|<b style="background:#0d1125;color:#51aeff;padding:1q;border-radius:5q;">Blaze Wolf</b>]][[User talk:Blaze Wolf|<sup>Talk</sup>]]<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze Wolf#6545</sub> 03:44, 29 November 2022 (UTC) |
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:::Judging by the number of people who routinely ignore [[Talk:Muhammad/FAQ]], which is linked prominently on [[Talk:Muhammad]] and even reproduced in a permanent first section visible on mobile devices, I am skeptical that a FAQ on the Teahouse would get any attention from all the newbies who want to know why their draft was declined (which I would estimate is the number one question). The same thing goes for the FAQ at [[Talk:Adam's Bridge]]. It might reduce the tide of questions in a small way, but doesn't eliminate them. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] <small>([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])</small> 03:53, 29 November 2022 (UTC) |
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::::Well obviously it wouldn't eliminate them, that would only happen in a perfect world (one where questions like "why was my draft declined" would exist). However maybe it could help if we had somewhere to direct users other than giant essays and policies? ― [[User:Blaze Wolf|<b style="background:#0d1125;color:#51aeff;padding:1q;border-radius:5q;">Blaze Wolf</b>]][[User talk:Blaze Wolf|<sup>Talk</sup>]]<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze Wolf#6545</sub> 03:58, 29 November 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::Oh, I'm not saying we shouldn't do it. It certainly can't hurt, and may even help in a small way. |
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:::::It seems that the answers to FAQ questions are pretty much all gathered together in [[:Template:HD/WINI]]. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] <small>([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])</small> 05:41, 29 November 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::Dang. I didn't know there were that many HD templates. Still, it wouldn't hurt to actually create an FAQ page with some of those answers. ― [[User:Blaze Wolf|<b style="background:#0d1125;color:#51aeff;padding:1q;border-radius:5q;">Blaze Wolf</b>]][[User talk:Blaze Wolf|<sup>Talk</sup>]]<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze Wolf#6545</sub> 13:04, 29 November 2022 (UTC) |
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I'm curious to hear from other hosts about what you've been encountering with editors being confused by the button to save an edit when creating a new page being labelled "publish" rather than "save," as it used to be. It seems that this has caused a lot of confusion, e.g. [[Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive_1084#Saving_changes_before_a_change_is_ready_to_publish|here]], [[Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive_1084#How_to_publish_an_article_which_became_a_draft?|here]] (both handled by @[[User:331dot|331dot]]), [[Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive_1216#Loss_of_my_Work_in_Sandbox.....what_happened?|here]], and [[Help:Introduction/feedback#Feedback_from_Pjplumbing_(1_February_2024)|here]], among many others. We have the ability to change it at [[MediaWiki:Publishchanges]] if we decide to do so. <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:1em Lucida Sans">Sdkb</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 02:36, 17 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== ChatGPT tries to answer Teahouse questions == |
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:I don't think we can change it; as I understand it was Wikipedia's lawyers who wanted it changed, to emphasize that every edit is public. Apparently "save" does not carry that implication. I think we just have to live with it. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 08:00, 17 March 2024 (UTC) |
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I have fed some [[Wikipedia:Teahouse host training]] questions to ChatGPT and it generated some interesting responses. See [[Wikipedia:Teahouse host training/Answers/ChatGPT]]. <span style="font-family:Iosevka,monospace">0x[[User:0xDeadbeef|<span style="text-transform:uppercase;color:black">'''Deadbeef'''</span>]]</span>→∞ ([[User talk:0xDeadbeef|talk to me]]) 13:39, 2 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:Yeah, chatbots. I don't think they should be used anywhere that they might be taken seriously. For question 4, this one is unaware that there's a difference between owning a photo and owning copyright in it. Here's an excerpt from a Google trained chatbot: |
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::Suppose you roll two standard six-sided dice. What is the probability to get a total score of 8? Explain your working fully. |
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::The probability of rolling a total score of 8 is 1/9. This is because there are 36 possible outcomes when rolling two standard six-sided dice (6 x 6 = 36). Out of these 36 possible outcomes, only 4 will result in a total score of 8 (1+7, 2+6, 3+5, 4+4). Therefore, the probability of rolling a total score of 8 is 4/36 = 1/9. |
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:The confident delivery of a totally misguided answer is impressive but unhelpful. [[User:Maproom|Maproom]] ([[User talk:Maproom|talk]]) 14:11, 2 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::I find it a bit funny how for question 4 it says "please do not write 'best regards'" which the bot totally ignores and writes "Best Regards" anyway. Might I ask what "ChatGPT" is? Clearly it's not an aspiring Teahouse Host, but I've never heard of it before. ― [[User:Blaze Wolf|<b style="background:#0d1125;color:#51aeff;padding:1q;border-radius:5q;">Blaze Wolf</b>]][[User talk:Blaze Wolf|<sup>Talk</sup>]]<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze Wolf#6545</sub> 14:18, 2 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::Looking at it, it appears the bot doesn't know what the instructions it's being given are, only the questions. ― [[User:Blaze Wolf|<b style="background:#0d1125;color:#51aeff;padding:1q;border-radius:5q;">Blaze Wolf</b>]][[User talk:Blaze Wolf|<sup>Talk</sup>]]<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze Wolf#6545</sub> 14:30, 2 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::Something new developed by [[OpenAI]]. (see [https://openai.com/blog/chatgpt/ this]) <span style="font-family:Iosevka,monospace">0x[[User:0xDeadbeef|<span style="text-transform:uppercase;color:black">'''Deadbeef'''</span>]]</span>→∞ ([[User talk:0xDeadbeef|talk to me]]) 14:41, 2 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::Interesting. Seems promising, though I don't think we should ever use an AI to answer questions anywhere. For one the AI may not always be right, and two it gets rid of the human to human interaction (although some trolls and vandals like to think anti-vandals are bots when really that's just ClueBot NG). ― [[User:Blaze Wolf|<b style="background:#0d1125;color:#51aeff;padding:1q;border-radius:5q;">Blaze Wolf</b>]][[User talk:Blaze Wolf|<sup>Talk</sup>]]<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze Wolf#6545</sub> 14:46, 2 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::Yes. This was not a proposition that we should tell them to respond to people automatically, but it can create an idea of what a response would look like. At least from what I have seen, ChatGPT was deemed to be generating responses of decent quality. But I guess Math is any chatbot's nightmare: |
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::Suppose you roll two standard six-sided dice. What is the probability to get a total score of 8? Explain your working fully. |
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::To get a total score of 8 when rolling two dice, you can get a score of 6 and 2, 5 and 3, or 4 and 4. Since there are a total of 36 possible outcomes when rolling two dice (6 possible outcomes for the first die x 6 possible outcomes for the second die), the probability of getting a total score of 8 is 3/36, which simplifies to 1/12. <span style="font-family:Iosevka,monospace">0x[[User:0xDeadbeef|<span style="text-transform:uppercase;color:black">'''Deadbeef'''</span>]]</span>→∞ ([[User talk:0xDeadbeef|talk to me]]) 14:45, 2 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::@[[User:0xDeadbeef|0xDeadbeef]] <small> Don't offer yourself as an alternative to chatbot. There are two ways each to get 6/2 and 5/3 but only one way to get 4/4. So the correct answer is 5/36. </small> [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 16:56, 2 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::@[[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Michael D. Turnbull]] That is what ChatGPT generated. I should have specified that. <span style="font-family:Iosevka,monospace">0x[[User:0xDeadbeef|<span style="text-transform:uppercase;color:black">'''Deadbeef'''</span>]]</span>→∞ ([[User talk:0xDeadbeef|talk to me]]) 16:59, 2 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::Yes, I wondered about that! Actually, I thought that its answers to the Teahouse training questions were pretty good. In the case of the image upload it did say "[if] you have the right to use the photo" which does imply it knows about copyright. The real issue is that people often don't know what the word "right" means in this context. It might be fun to try out giving instant answers, making clear they were from a bot, in the live Teahouse. You would want it not to answer every question or some trolls would start trying to trip it up but if it answered say one in three questions on average that would be a useful experiment to run for a few days. [[User:Michael D. Turnbull|Mike Turnbull]] ([[User talk:Michael D. Turnbull|talk]]) 17:14, 2 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::I like that idea. I think a message at the end saying "This message was generated by ChatGPT and may not be accurate." with a link to more details on ChatGPT would help distinguish the AI's answer from a real one. ― [[User:Blaze Wolf|<b style="background:#0d1125;color:#51aeff;padding:1q;border-radius:5q;">Blaze Wolf</b>]][[User talk:Blaze Wolf|<sup>Talk</sup>]]<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze Wolf#6545</sub> 17:18, 2 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::::::Although I do have an issue in that it doesn't use internal linking, and make it seem like the answer comes from the Teahouse itself (which is not true) ― [[User:Blaze Wolf|<b style="background:#0d1125;color:#51aeff;padding:1q;border-radius:5q;">Blaze Wolf</b>]][[User talk:Blaze Wolf|<sup>Talk</sup>]]<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze Wolf#6545</sub> 17:18, 2 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:::::::It could be mitigated by detecting keywords and automatically linking them, and trimming out the best regards part if it insists. However, we can't do it with a bot as OpenAI has not exposed any kind of API for it yet. <span style="font-family:Iosevka,monospace">0x[[User:0xDeadbeef|<span style="text-transform:uppercase;color:black">'''Deadbeef'''</span>]]</span>→∞ ([[User talk:0xDeadbeef|talk to me]]) 17:44, 2 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:Users think, understandably, that "Publish" means "put in mainspace". Some want to put their draft into mainspace and are puzzled when "Publish" doesn't do that. Others just want to save edits to their draft but can't find a "Save" button. It's strange that lawyers think WP's legal position is stronger when its users don't understand what they're doing. [[User:Maproom|Maproom]] ([[User talk:Maproom|talk]]) 14:17, 17 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== Meeting this Friday == |
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::I've wondered if there was a way to reword it to both make it clear what the button does and satisfy the concerns of the lawyers(who I think are trying to avoid users saying "I didn't know that would be public!" or some other legal concern) but I feel like that would be hard to do in a concise manner with a minimum of confusion. [[User:331dot|331dot]] ([[User talk:331dot|talk]]) 14:46, 17 March 2024 (UTC) |
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Hello, |
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:::I've thought about it a bit and think the solution isn't in the wording (as both put us in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation), but in a warning dialogue box that says something along the lines of: {{xt2|Warning: Your edits will be publicly viewable. If you wish to keep your edits private you will have to do it off-site.}} This would be enabled by default for non-autoconfirmed users and removed once they become autoconfirmed. Unfortunately, IP addresses would most likely have to be left out as there's no way to differentiate between veteran editors who wish to remain anonymous versus complete newbies. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu 🐲</span>]] ( [[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]] ) 14:57, 17 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:::{{button|Save & publish}}, instead of the current {{button|Publish changes}}. |
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:::There's already a disclaimer by such buttons (including the "Reply" button on talk pages) giving full details. <span class="nowrap">[[User:Bazza_7|Bazza <span class="tmp-color" style="color:grey">7</span>]] ([[User_talk:Bazza_7|talk]])</span> 14:57, 17 March 2024 (UTC) |
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::::Speculating about what's legally necessary rather than seeking clarification is a surefire way for us to get bogged down in circles. @[[User:Slaporte (WMF)|Slaporte (WMF)]], can you let us know if there's any legal reason the button needs to say "publish" rather than "save"? <span style="border:3px outset;border-radius:8pt 0;padding:1px 5px;background:linear-gradient(6rad,#86c,#2b9)">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF;text-decoration:inherit;font:1em Lucida Sans">Sdkb</span>]]</span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 16:26, 17 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:See [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous)/Archive_57#Change_to_the_edit_submission_button_label|this announcement]] for background (and [[Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous)/Archive_57#When_and_why_did_the_page_editing_"Save_changes"_button_turn_into_"Publish_changes"?|further discussion]] further down the page). [[Special:Contributions/57.140.16.57|57.140.16.57]] ([[User talk:57.140.16.57|talk]]) 19:07, 18 March 2024 (UTC) |
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:I do regularly (though not ''frequently'') encounter questions from new users who are confused by the publish button. I find it somewhat embarrassing to have to trot out the ''"it's a legal requirement that's been forced on us"'' explanation on each occasion. It is time-consuming to have to explain what the difference between 'publish' and 'Publish' means. But I haven't experienced the constant confusion amongst large numbers of new editors that I had actually expected. If I could change it back, I would, as it's the most logical title when saving edits in a draft. But I suspect most new users manage to understand it well enough, and that we are where we are, and are stuck with it. [[User:Nick Moyes|Nick Moyes]] ([[User talk:Nick Moyes|talk]]) 23:11, 20 March 2024 (UTC) |
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== Uh, what exactly is the "Teahouse"? == |
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The [[mw:Editing team|Editing team]] is hosting a public meeting this Friday, December 16th to talk about the needs of new editors. You are all invited. They want to present some ideas they have about encouraging the addition of inline citations, and they want to hear what you think will help newcomers make productive contributions. |
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I'm still kind of confused, sorry if this shouldn't be written here. [[User:Crylophosaurus|Crylophosaurus]] ([[User talk:Crylophosaurus|talk]]) 03:03, 12 April 2024 (UTC) |
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When: Friday, 16 December 2022 at [https://zonestamp.toolforge.org/1671206400 16:00–17:30 UTC] |
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:Hi, {{u|Crylophosaurus}}. The Teahouse is just a place where beginners can ask questions about how to edit Wikipedia. Actually, anybody can ask, but it is aimed at beginners. It is just like the [[WP:HELP DESK|Help desk]] except that people here at the Teahouse make an extra effort to be patient and not "bite" the newbies.--[[User:Gronk Oz|Gronk Oz]] ([[User talk:Gronk Oz|talk]]) 06:11, 12 April 2024 (UTC) |
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== Someone should close this discussion == |
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Video conference link: https://meet.google.com/krq-tonw-quz |
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Someone (preferably an admin) should probably close [[:WP:THQ#Notice: I am considering quitting everything]] since it's a discussion that's going nowhere and seems more for the OP's vanity than anything else. I would close it myself, but I've just commented in it and feel it would be a bit odd for me to do so. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 13:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC) |
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This meeting will be in English. There is some information on wiki at [[mw:Editing team/Community Conversations#16%20December%202022|mw:Editing team/Community Conversations#16 December 2022]] You don't need to sign up in advance, but you can sign up on that page if you want to. I hope some Teahouse hosts will be able to attend. |
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:@[[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] I'm not sure closing is really necessary. Looks to me like it's come to a natural end and isn't going to continue. But feel free to close it if you wish. (As you know, I commented, too). [[User:Nick Moyes|Nick Moyes]] ([[User talk:Nick Moyes|talk]]) 19:59, 14 April 2024 (UTC) |
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If you aren't able to attend, but you have some information or advice for the team, you can also leave a public note for the Editing team at [[mw:Talk:Editing team/Community Conversations]]. (Also, if you want to find out about future events, I suggest putting that page on your watchlist.) |
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::You're right {{u|Nick Moyes|Nick}}. I was actually going to self-revert this post first thing since I reached the same assessment, but I'll leave it here now just for reference. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 21:17, 14 April 2024 (UTC) |
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== Are we allowed to remove questions? == |
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Thank you. [[User:Whatamidoing (WMF)|Whatamidoing (WMF)]] ([[User talk:Whatamidoing (WMF)|talk]]) 17:18, 14 December 2022 (UTC) |
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Hi. I was wondering if removal of posts are allowed, if it is obvious that the asker is not here for help. (Such as [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3ATeahouse&diff=1220019056&oldid=1220016769 this one]) Thanks! <code><nowiki>'''[[</nowiki>'''[[User:CanonNi]]'''<nowiki>]]'''</nowiki></code> ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]]<nowiki>|</nowiki>[[Special:Contributions/CanonNi|contribs]]) 11:05, 21 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:<small>I was about to tell you that you forgot the section header but clearly you noticed. ― [[User:Blaze Wolf|<b style="background:#0d1125;color:#51aeff;padding:1q;border-radius:5q;">Blaze Wolf</b>]][[User talk:Blaze Wolf|<sup>Talk</sup>]]<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze Wolf#6545</sub> 17:20, 14 December 2022 (UTC)</small> |
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:Hi {{u|CanonNi}}. In my opinion, your best bet is to probably follow the guidance in [[:WP:TPO]], particularly [[:WP:TPG#Off-topic posts]]. If you assess the post to be a serious violation of a policy like [[:WP:BLP]], [[:WP:OUTING]], [[:WP:COPY]], etc., you can probably remove it asap but should leave an appropriate edit summary explaining why. You then probably should seek assistance from an administrator (there are usually a few active at the Teahouse at various times of the day but there's always one at [[:WP:AN]]) and ask them to review it because it might need to be [[:WP:REVDEL]] if it's really bad. If it's a case of someone posting too much of their own personally identifying information (email addresses, phone numbers, real names, etc.), you can use the template {{tl|redacted}} as well, politely explain to the person who posted why, and then contact an admininstrator or [[:WP:OVERSIGHT]] to see if revdel or [[:WP:SUPPRESS]] is needed. If it's just someone rambling about something unrelated to the Wikipedia per editing or something not really within the scope of the Teahouse (i.e. a general reference question), you can politely respond that such a thing isn't within the scope of the Teahouse and redirect the person to another Wikipedia page or another external website (if one exists). You can try to answer the person's question if you want, but that might lead to further discussion that might end up needing to be closed at some point. A lot could depend on the context of the post. For certain things, sometimes this posting a [[:WP:DISCLAIMER]] like response works best because trying to delve into too much detail (especially about sensitive subject matters) might create a new set of problems.{{pb}}The account who made the post you're asking about has already been blocked for disruption, so there's no point in warning them about. The posts it made at the Teahouse have already been removed by an administrator named {{u|Graham87}}. For reference, though, posts like this could probably be non-contentiously removed per [[:WP:R VAN]] or [[:WP:TPG#Off-topic posts]] if you want, but you might want to check the poster's contributions' history first to see whether they're just drive by posting and have already been dealt with or they could possibly be asking a "legit" question. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 13:11, 21 April 2024 (UTC) |
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::Thank you for the detailed reply! I understand now. <code><nowiki>'''[[</nowiki>'''[[User:CanonNi]]'''<nowiki>]]'''</nowiki></code> ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]]<nowiki>|</nowiki>[[Special:Contributions/CanonNi|contribs]]) 13:31, 21 April 2024 (UTC) |
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== [[WP:Drafts]] - proposed split == |
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==Scams and incompetence== |
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I often read this kind of thing: |
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[[File:Information icon4.svg|link=|25px|alt=Information icon]] There is currently a discussion at [[WT:Drafts]] regarding a proposed split of [[WP:Drafts]]. The thread is [[WT:Drafts#WT:Drafts#Split into help page and guideline|WT:Drafts#Split into help page and guideline]]. Thank you.<!--Template:Discussion notice--> [[User:S0091|S0091]] ([[User talk:S0091|talk]]) 17:03, 24 April 2024 (UTC) |
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:Companies that offer to create articles for pay are almost all scams or not competent. |
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:The wikilink is messed up a bit. The discussion is at [[Wikipedia talk:Drafts#Split into help page and guideline]]. —[[User:Andrybak|andrybak]] ([[User talk:Andrybak|talk]]) 00:00, 6 May 2024 (UTC) |
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Indeed, I've written this kind of thing myself. But increasingly, I doubt that it's true. As I look at stuff awaiting AFC review, I often see drafts by very new editors that, though (I suspect deliberately) aren't polished, cite a stunning array of obscure sources and (aside from a tendency to include relative trivia) are actually well done. Often they'll have some sort of stylistic/technical disorder that doesn't risk having the article declined, that can be fixed fairly easily, and that I suppose is designed to add a veneer of novitiate ignorance of MoS or Mediawiki formatting or similar. I presume that a given username of a paid, competent writer first makes a few trivial edits to articles in the rough subject area, creates the paid-for draft, gets it promoted to article status, is retired and replaced.... |
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== Dadvan Yousuf == |
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Lacking solid evidence that these drafts are the work of paid editors, I usually keep my suspicions to myself. "Smells as if paid for" isn't a "decline" rationale. -- [[User:Hoary|Hoary]] ([[User talk:Hoary|talk]]) 13:24, 16 December 2022 (UTC) |
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There seems to be a coordinated effort to get "first Iraqi on Everest" into the article [[Dadvan Yousuf]]. In these two days alone, there have been ''five'' accounts asking about it here and on the article's talk page. Is there something we can do? <span style="font-family:monospace;">'''<nowiki>'''[[</nowiki>[[User:CanonNi]]<nowiki>]]'''</nowiki>'''</span> ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CanonNi|contribs]]) 09:47, 30 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:You would know better but I believe there's nothing wrong with dropping the COI notice and waiting for their reply before accepting, as it's a TOU and policy violation to be a UPE. I think the obvious one's are PR "specialists" who haven't bothered to learn the medium they are trying to publish to, but your point is accurate on those specializing on Wikipedia articles. [[User:Slywriter|Slywriter]] ([[User talk:Slywriter|talk]]) 14:12, 16 December 2022 (UTC) |
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:Not really, besides direct people to the talk page and provide reliable sources. —[[User:Tenryuu|<span style="color:#556B2F">Tenryuu 🐲</span>]] ( [[User talk:Tenryuu|💬]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tenryuu|📝]] ) 15:34, 30 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:"I often read this kind of thing: |
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:You could put an {{t|FAQ}} on the talk page but I have a hunch that it'd mostly get scrolled on by. -- [[User:DandelionAndBurdock|D'n'B]]-''[[User_talk:DandelionAndBurdock|t]]'' -- 18:52, 30 May 2024 (UTC) |
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:Companies that offer to create articles for pay are almost all scams or not competent." I usually only see this if someone mentions they received an email saying that they can get their article published if they pay some money. I almost never see this if someone asks why their draft wasn't approved. Mind providing some examples? ― [[User:Blaze Wolf|<b style="background:#0d1125;color:#51aeff;padding:1q;border-radius:5q;">Blaze Wolf</b>]][[User talk:Blaze Wolf|<sup>Talk</sup>]]<sub title="Discord Username" style="margin-left:-22q;">Blaze Wolf#6545</sub> 14:41, 16 December 2022 (UTC) |
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== Wikitia discussion seems to have moved beyond the scope of the Teahouse == |
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:As a host at Help Desk and Teahouse, I often see paid editors asking for help because they're clueless about the work they've accepted payment for, and need help from us volunteers. When they're salaried employees who've been told by their boss "get an article set up on Wikipedia", this is understandable. When they've taken on the job as freelancers, they get less sympathy. Anyway − the result is that we hosts can get the impression that most paid editors are incompetent. But I suspect we're only seeing the tip of the iceberg, and there are plenty of competent paid editors working away unnoticed. At the opposite end of the range there are extremely competent (and I assume accordingly well-paid) agents of ''e.g.'' big tobacco, working effectively in their clients' interests. As for the ordinary, fairly competent, undeclared paid editors, they're probably a net positive for Wikipedia. [[User:Maproom|Maproom]] ([[User talk:Maproom|talk]]) 15:17, 16 December 2022 (UTC) |
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{{ping|Anachronist|PrimeHunter}} I think that [[:WP:THQ#Deleting a page]] probably should be closed down because it has moved beyond the scope of the Teahouse. Assuming that the OP isn't trolling, there's nothing Wikipedia can do about Wikitia anyway and the IP's/OP's last response has even further moved a discussion in a direction that's just might lead to some things being posted that shouldn't be posted. Since you two are admins and both responded to the OP, the discussion could be continued on the OP's user talk page if either of you want to, but I don't see anything further to be gained by doing so at the Teahouse. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 06:02, 3 June 2024 (UTC) |
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== Edit conflicts: a tip == |
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Maybe what I describe below is obvious or well-known. But it only occurred to me recently, so I thought I'd pass it on. |
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:Anyone can close a discussion, it doesn't have to be an administrator. I just wrapped it in archive tags. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] <small>([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])</small> 15:48, 3 June 2024 (UTC) |
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Until around a year ago, I used to get edit conflicts at the Help desk and at the Teahouse, and they weren't a problem for me. I could click the "back" button in my browser, get back to the text that I'd typed in, and copy it. Then something changed, that technique stopped working, and I found myself having to retype the text. But there's an easy way to avoid that: once I've typed in the text, and maybe checked it with "Show preview", instead of clicking "Publish changes" I ''shift''-click "Publish changes". That way (with Chrome, anyway) the submission goes to a new browser window; if if it's lost to an edit conflict, it's still there in the old window. [[User:Maproom|Maproom]] ([[User talk:Maproom|talk]]) 15:29, 16 December 2022 (UTC) |
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::I'm aware of that anyone can close a discussion, but I figured I give one of you the chance to do so given that the two of you had posted several responses; moreover, as admins, you're also capable of [[:WP:REVDEL]] if you deem it to be necessary. Anyway, it's a moot point now since you closed the discussion and another user courtesy blanked it. -- [[User:Marchjuly|Marchjuly]] ([[User talk:Marchjuly|talk]]) 00:23, 4 June 2024 (UTC) |
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:Nice tip [[User:Maproom|Maproom]] - it works in MS Edge as well - thanks - [[User:Arjayay|Arjayay]] ([[User talk:Arjayay|talk]]) 15:47, 16 December 2022 (UTC) |
Revision as of 07:39, 15 June 2024
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![]() | Teahouse history |
This page has archives. Sections older than 45 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 14 sections are present. |
I'm adding myself to the host list!
—since I try to help a lot anyway. I haven't done so yet because I've spent a considerable time learning on the job, including how to always be friendly and as helpful as possible. Of course it doesn't mean anything particular, I just wanted others to know that me adding myself to the host list is coming with an explicit commitment to be the best host possible. :) cheers! Remsense留 23:17, 3 January 2024 (UTC)
- Nice to have you involved
{{u|Sdkb}} talk 07:01, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
- Welcome to hosting and I echo @Sdkb. It is nice to have you involved. --ARoseWolf 13:27, 4 January 2024 (UTC)
Talkback script
So, I've installed the talkback script, and am getting into the habit of using it—but I do note that it asks for the question to be reentered—it seems possible that this could be done automatically, since the button is in the context of a header on the page regardless. I assume this has been discussed before? Remsense留 06:49, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
- You're referring to User:Qwerfjkl/scripts/talkback? I haven't used that script and aren't too familiar with it, but you could share suggestions with the script's author, Qwerfjkl.
- Putting talkbacks on users' talk pages has become less important now that the WP:Talk pages project has rolled out the subscription feature, which makes it so that editors will now automatically be notified about replies to threads they start at the Teahouse, even if we forget to ping them (which we always should, since it'll result in a bolder red notification rather than a blue one). A talkback will still give them the orange bar, which is the most noticeable of all, but I don't tend to bother with it unless I see someone continuing a behavior seemingly unaware of a response at the Teahouse. In our role educating editors about how Wikipedia works, we should be modeling normal pinging behavior, and talkbacks aren't used anywhere else these days. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 07:00, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
- That makes sense, thank you—I did feel the TB was a bit of a "making extra extra sure" gesture—I just wanted to make sure I was acting inline with expectations in the Teahouse host guidelines. Perhaps they should be tweaked to reflect this? Remsense留 10:34, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, I'd support that. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 20:27, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
- That makes sense, thank you—I did feel the TB was a bit of a "making extra extra sure" gesture—I just wanted to make sure I was acting inline with expectations in the Teahouse host guidelines. Perhaps they should be tweaked to reflect this? Remsense留 10:34, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
Is the Teahouse targeting women?
From the link on the Teahouse page, I was reading https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Research:Teahouse, where it says Although the project will welcome all good faith new users, women are a particular target population.
Is this true? I have been a Teahouse regular for many years and I have never seen anything at the Teahouse or anywhere else on Wikipedia that suggests it is targeting women users, only that it is supposed to be friendly for any new user. Was this a goal at one time that has since been dropped, or is there something I am missing that encourages women to come to the Teahouse?
RudolfRed (talk) 20:17, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
- @RudolfRed: I noted that the phrase "women are a particular target population" was in the original version of the Wikimedia page from 29 November 2011. I'm not aware of people making a special effort now to encourage women in particular to come to the Teahouse (but there are many things of which I'm not aware). GoingBatty (talk) 20:38, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
- The Teahouse arose out of a bunch of Foundation research on welcoming new users; the version that operates today has evolved a lot from that. Wanting to welcome women may have influenced some of the earlier decisions, such as the Teahouse's visual design. Today, I think the friendliness approach we take is naturally more likely to aid female editors who come here, given that women are less likely to endure hostile online environments than men. I also know that when culling the list of active Teahouse hosts in the past, we've given a bit more leniency to female hosts. Trying to make the Teahouse welcoming to women should be something we always have in mind as we try to fight systemic bias, but it dovetails pretty well with the things we do to make it welcoming for folks of all genders. Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} talk 20:42, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
- "Today, I think the friendliness approach we take is naturally more likely to aid female editors who come here, given that women are less likely to endure hostile online environments than men." Not true.
- "I also know that when culling the list of active Teahouse hosts in the past, we've given a bit more leniency to female hosts." Care to elaborate? Biolitblue (talk) 01:03, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
- RudolfRed, while it is old verbiage, I do agree with Sdkb on the benefits offering a variety of social approaches may potentially have for editors of different genders. — Remsense诉 23:40, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, everyone, for the replies. RudolfRed (talk) 04:01, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
- I was thinking it was a vandalism leftover, as a woman myself, it really confuses me, and I think it should be removed as to promote neutrality and/or positivity among all groups. Cometkeiko (talk) 12:24, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
- Cometkeiko, this seems perfectly reasonable, especially as it's not contingent to the goals of the Teahouse at present. I would be interested in hearing more from others about removing the passage. — Remsense诉 12:27, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
- I think the meta page is at this point largely a historical report document indicating how the foundation thought about the Teahouse c. 2012. I wouldn't be opposed with a notice at the top indicating that more clearly, but I don't think it'd be appropriate for us to change it. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 15:09, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
- I don't have an issue with it staying as is. --ARoseWolf 16:28, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
- I think the meta page is at this point largely a historical report document indicating how the foundation thought about the Teahouse c. 2012. I wouldn't be opposed with a notice at the top indicating that more clearly, but I don't think it'd be appropriate for us to change it. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 15:09, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
- Cometkeiko, this seems perfectly reasonable, especially as it's not contingent to the goals of the Teahouse at present. I would be interested in hearing more from others about removing the passage. — Remsense诉 12:27, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
- I was thinking it was a vandalism leftover, as a woman myself, it really confuses me, and I think it should be removed as to promote neutrality and/or positivity among all groups. Cometkeiko (talk) 12:24, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
A barnstar for you!
![]() |
What a Brilliant Idea Barnstar | |
For encouraging thousands of new editors to become a contributor to Wikipedia. The Teahouse is a million dollar idea. Seriously. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 16:29, 19 January 2024 (UTC) |
- Thanks, @CactiStaccingCrane, but wouldn't this be a bit better placed on the talk page? 57.140.16.1 (talk) 17:17, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
- (And now it is on the talk page, due to MAGIC
) 57.140.16.1 (talk) 17:34, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
- (And now it is on the talk page, due to MAGIC
- Brilliant idea indeed, but I thought barnstars are for users. Abdullah raji (talk) 13:17, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
- I remember that a very long Wiki-time ago (in about 2006 or so), a group received a "WikiMedal for janitorial services" (I was one of them). Not a barnstar per se, but I always took it that if an award is given to a group, everyone involved (say, Teahouse hosts) have been awarded the recognition. Lectonar (talk) 14:49, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
Bot inoperable
It appears that the bot that leaves talk page notifications that Teahouse threads have been active archived has gone inoperable, and the operator hasn't been around in a few months. Would anyone be interested in taking over the task or filing a request for it to be taken over? Sdkb talk 19:32, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
- For the curious, Tigraan noted back in November 2022 at User talk:Tigraan/Archive 3#Problem with Teahouse notification template that
The server [Muninnbot] was running on was shut down and I am supposed to migrate the tool to another one, but I procrastinated doing that. (No promise about when I will fix it.)
Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 23:30, 15 February 2024 (UTC)- See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Tigraan#Muninnbot:_Digging_Teahouse_archive_links_failure Nick Moyes (talk) 00:37, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
- To keep discussion on one place, I notified WP:BOTREQ of the existing discussion here. Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 02:13, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Tigraan#Muninnbot:_Digging_Teahouse_archive_links_failure Nick Moyes (talk) 00:37, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
- Maintainer: Tigraan (inactive 4 months)
- Bot: Muninnbot
- Source code: https://gitlab.com/Tigraan/Teahouse-bot/-/blob/master/scripts/teahouse_archival_bot.py
- BRFA: Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/Muninnbot
- Toolforge account: Muninnbot –Novem Linguae (talk) 04:59, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- If what is needed is someone to run and maintain the bot could a current bot op take over the task with the same code on a new bot account? Geardona (talk to me?) 12:14, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- @Novem Linguae, is the old source code still functional? – DreamRimmer (talk) 15:19, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- Not sure. I think the next step is someone needs to do wikitech:Help:Toolforge/Abandoned tool policy. –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:16, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- I've notified Tigraan on their talk pages and via email, as required by the policy :) Frostly (talk) 18:45, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- Courtesy link: User talk:Tigraan#Muninnbot (permalink just in case). Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 04:42, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
- I've notified Tigraan on their talk pages and via email, as required by the policy :) Frostly (talk) 18:45, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- Not sure. I think the next step is someone needs to do wikitech:Help:Toolforge/Abandoned tool policy. –Novem Linguae (talk) 19:16, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- Hi folks, bot operator here. Thanks for the notification. I would like to get back to Wikipedia contributions and Muninnbot, but honestly I am not sure I can make that promise due to real-life events. I can however promise to stay around and answer queries in the next couple of weeks or so.
- What stopped the bot was the migration of Toolforge server. I was supposed to move to the new server, but did not. (Just to be clear: I am not blaming the migration team, the messages were perfectly clear about what ought to be done and by what time.) The code itself should be still working. I have not tested, so changes to dependencies (deprecations etc.) could have broken it; but at least it’s worth a shot. Note also that it has a dead man’s switch, running a couple of unit tests before posting notifications all around, and stopping if any of those fail; that is not guaranteed to catch every bug of course, but it will catch some of them. Looking at the code, it certainly is not perfect but it aged way better than my other years-old projects did. All the important Python code is in this Python file, which should be run via a cron job.
- The only problem I can envision to getting it back up is the one described at User:Muninnbot/doc#Race_condition_with_lowercase_sigmabot_III: as it stands, the script must be run exactly once between two archival runs, else notifications are missed or duplicated. Back when I set it up, LS3 ran once every day around 5:00UTC, hence just running the bot once a day at a time different from that worked. However, looking at the TH history right now I can see timestamps at various points around the clock. This may be buggy behavior from LS3 (User_talk:Σ seems to mention issues with the bot), but I do not think "runs every day at the same time" was ever a promise made by that bot, so relying on it is not good software design anyway. Fixing it would require development but should not be too hard (simple fix off the top of my head: have a log file that contains the ID of the last LS3 edit to be processed, process every LS3 edit that occurred after that one, update the log).
- So... next steps that I see:
- (done)
Anyone interested in becoming co-maintainer (Frostly, usernamekiran, any others?) files the Toolforge paperwork for adopting the tool. Feel free to link to this post as proof I did not object. I will also specifically say that access to the Toolforge for the tool should include access to secrets therein (I am 90% sure there should be an OAuth token to post as Muninnbot, but without it you cannot really run the bot). - (Optional but highly recommended) the same people send me a gitlab ID so I can add them on the gitlab repo (create an account beforehand if needed). Either here, on my user talk page, or via email if you prefer (note that project members on public gitlab repos are public though, so there’s not much privacy point in using email).
- The same people add themselves at the places they ought to (User:Muninnbot for instance?)
- Someone (the first one to code it I guess) fixes the LS3 issue mentioned above
- Someone (the first one to cron it I guess) puts the bot back online at Toolforge
- (done)
- If it was me, I would mildly prefer doing #4 before doing #5, but honestly I could imagine myself YOLOing it. If you do so, watch over the LS3 edits for a couple of days.
- I would imagine the BRFA is still valid - although technically the bot has not edited for two years, it was not due to a change of consensus, and I see no opposition to restarting it in the discussion here. Of course anyone is free to object at any point.
- That should cover it. Any issues with that plan, questions etc.? TigraanClick here for my talk page ("private" contact) 19:35, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
- thanks for theresponse Tigraan. I have only one doubt. I'm not sure if OAuth is required with pywikibot. Years ago when I setup my tool/bot, to post as KiranBOT II, all I had to do was create BotPassword, and use it in the config file. Regarding other stuff, I'll respond in 18ish hours. Courtesy ping to Frostly. —usernamekiran (talk) 20:22, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks so much for the reply, Tigraan!
The easiest / least bureaucratic way to accomplish #1 would be to add myself and usernamekiran as maintainers in the Toolforge admin console. My Toolforge username is EpicPupper (it was my previous Wikimedia username); usernamekiran's looks like it's the same.
Re #2, my GitLab username is "frost-ly". Long-term, I'd love to potentially migrate the project to Wikimedia's instance of GitLab.
There's a new Toolforge jobs framework that "replaces" cron, which is probably the best-practice way to get the bot up and running again.
I agree that the BRFA is likely still valid :)
Looking forward to hearing usernamekiran's perspective.
Cheers, — Frostly (talk) 03:14, 10 March 2024 (UTC)- I have added you both on the Toolforge admin account, and frost-ly on Gitlab.
- I have not yet logged back on Toolforge to dust off the furniture (new computer, I will need to dig to retrieve the SSH keys). I should be able to do so later this week though. TigraanClick here for my talk page ("private" contact) 19:48, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Frostly, Usernamekiran, and Tigraan: hi! Hope you all are well. Just out of curiosity, is this ongoing? Thanks, Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 17:48, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Rotideypoc41352: Hi, apologies, I thought this one was taken care of. I will be busy for 40ish hours from now. But this will be the first thing I will take a look at as soon as I get time. —usernamekiran (talk) 17:54, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Rotideypoc41352: I just logged in to the bot's account on toolforge. @Tigraan, and Frostly: I have created a file named "usernamekiran.log" in root directory. I will soon look into the cronjob issue, and I will keep you guys posted. —usernamekiran (talk) 19:50, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- Usernamekiran, thank you! Will take a look into the bot as well. — Frostly (talk) 01:15, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Frostly, Usernamekiran, and Tigraan: hi! Hope you all are well. Just out of curiosity, is this ongoing? Thanks, Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 17:48, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Usernamekiran @Frostly You should be able to use botpasswords and OAuth on Toolforge. Tho OAuth in my experience is relatively easier to setup with custom containers. I run a cross-wiki(source) bot with a similar cronjob configuration in the
wsstats
account on the new Toolforge infrastructure. (The code for my bot is at https://github.com/sohomdatta1/wsstats.git feel free to copy over parts of the boilerplate code if you want). Sohom (talk) 05:17, 21 May 2024 (UTC)- @Sohom Datta: Hi. Using OAuth, I was able to login to enwiki with Muninnbot on the first attempt, but I am getting an error with the script. I tried to fix it, but couldnt. I have mailed Tigraan, hopefully they will respond soon. —usernamekiran (talk) 11:17, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
Teahouse Hosts!
Is Teahouse Host a formal position here, like Administrator? Or is it more like Editor in Wikipedia at large, referring to anybody who ever comments on a question (or adds a comma to an article)? Uporządnicki (talk) 15:05, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- Slightly in between — there's a listing at WP:Teahouse/Hosts, which is the sense in which it's formal, but anyone can help respond to queries. Sdkb talk 15:09, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- I haven't joined the official list because I don't want to feel an obligation to contribute regularly. There are several regular contributors who are not on the list and a few that are on the list but almost never contribute. Nick Moyes occasionally removes those who have stopped contributing. The only important requirements for contributors, IMO, is that their answers are largely accurate and made politely. Mike Turnbull (talk) 16:08, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- I believe it's a holdover from when the Teahouse was first established, but the concept doesn't hold any significance as to who may answer questions, so long as said answers are accurate, courteous, and helpful. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 18:18, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
- @AzseicsoK As has been said, it's a very informal title which people who do feel they help out here quite a lot here might wish to give themselves. But anyone is free to answer other users' questions at any time without signing up as a Host (so long as they give helpful answers!). I regard it is a very good first step for some editors who are becoming interested in some of the behind-the-scenes administration and support work to do. That's probably how I started my own journey to becoming an admin when @Cullen328 suggested I participated here as a Host. It taught me so much (and I'm still learning from other people's answers to this day)
- All that said, a very tiny number of editors do occasionally sign themselves up as a 'Host' for the wrong reasons (see WP:HATCOLLECT or WP:CIR) and they do get removed in due course, as do those who have never made much - or any - contribution here, or have got themselves blocked or regularly warned for inappropriate behaviour. The key things any Host needs is to be polite, patient, helpful and welcoming.
- You will find a tiny handful of names of editors on the host list who are not actively answering questions nowadays, but have nevertheless played a very significant role in the establishment and running of the Teahouse in the past, or who still do research or bot-related activities here. I hope this additional info is of interest. Nick Moyes (talk) 20:31, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
and I'm still learning from other people's answers to this day
is probably the most relatable thing here. I've got this place watchlisted primarily to answer questions I feel I can answer, but also just to learn stuff I probably never would've done by contributing anywhere elsewhere. There's such a wide array of questions asked here that you'll never stop learning. CommissarDoggoTalk? 22:23, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
Meet your hosts formatting
In signing up to be a Teahouse host I have managed to mess up the formatting of my entry (specifically the image). Obligatory Self-trout. If anyone knows how to retroactively amend this do let me know! Unexpectedlydian♯4talk‽ 22:05, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- @Unexpectedlydian:
Fixed in this edit. The template only calls for the file name and nothing else. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:38, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
- Amazing, thank you Unexpectedlydian♯4talk‽ 22:39, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
"Publish" vs. "save"
I'm curious to hear from other hosts about what you've been encountering with editors being confused by the button to save an edit when creating a new page being labelled "publish" rather than "save," as it used to be. It seems that this has caused a lot of confusion, e.g. here, here (both handled by @331dot), here, and here, among many others. We have the ability to change it at MediaWiki:Publishchanges if we decide to do so. Sdkb talk 02:36, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- I don't think we can change it; as I understand it was Wikipedia's lawyers who wanted it changed, to emphasize that every edit is public. Apparently "save" does not carry that implication. I think we just have to live with it. 331dot (talk) 08:00, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Users think, understandably, that "Publish" means "put in mainspace". Some want to put their draft into mainspace and are puzzled when "Publish" doesn't do that. Others just want to save edits to their draft but can't find a "Save" button. It's strange that lawyers think WP's legal position is stronger when its users don't understand what they're doing. Maproom (talk) 14:17, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- I've wondered if there was a way to reword it to both make it clear what the button does and satisfy the concerns of the lawyers(who I think are trying to avoid users saying "I didn't know that would be public!" or some other legal concern) but I feel like that would be hard to do in a concise manner with a minimum of confusion. 331dot (talk) 14:46, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- I've thought about it a bit and think the solution isn't in the wording (as both put us in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation), but in a warning dialogue box that says something along the lines of:
This would be enabled by default for non-autoconfirmed users and removed once they become autoconfirmed. Unfortunately, IP addresses would most likely have to be left out as there's no way to differentiate between veteran editors who wish to remain anonymous versus complete newbies. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 14:57, 17 March 2024 (UTC)Warning: Your edits will be publicly viewable. If you wish to keep your edits private you will have to do it off-site.
- Save & publish, instead of the current Publish changes.
- There's already a disclaimer by such buttons (including the "Reply" button on talk pages) giving full details. Bazza 7 (talk) 14:57, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- Speculating about what's legally necessary rather than seeking clarification is a surefire way for us to get bogged down in circles. @Slaporte (WMF), can you let us know if there's any legal reason the button needs to say "publish" rather than "save"? Sdkb talk 16:26, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- I've thought about it a bit and think the solution isn't in the wording (as both put us in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation), but in a warning dialogue box that says something along the lines of:
- I've wondered if there was a way to reword it to both make it clear what the button does and satisfy the concerns of the lawyers(who I think are trying to avoid users saying "I didn't know that would be public!" or some other legal concern) but I feel like that would be hard to do in a concise manner with a minimum of confusion. 331dot (talk) 14:46, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
- See this announcement for background (and further discussion further down the page). 57.140.16.57 (talk) 19:07, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
- I do regularly (though not frequently) encounter questions from new users who are confused by the publish button. I find it somewhat embarrassing to have to trot out the "it's a legal requirement that's been forced on us" explanation on each occasion. It is time-consuming to have to explain what the difference between 'publish' and 'Publish' means. But I haven't experienced the constant confusion amongst large numbers of new editors that I had actually expected. If I could change it back, I would, as it's the most logical title when saving edits in a draft. But I suspect most new users manage to understand it well enough, and that we are where we are, and are stuck with it. Nick Moyes (talk) 23:11, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
Uh, what exactly is the "Teahouse"?
I'm still kind of confused, sorry if this shouldn't be written here. Crylophosaurus (talk) 03:03, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Hi, Crylophosaurus. The Teahouse is just a place where beginners can ask questions about how to edit Wikipedia. Actually, anybody can ask, but it is aimed at beginners. It is just like the Help desk except that people here at the Teahouse make an extra effort to be patient and not "bite" the newbies.--Gronk Oz (talk) 06:11, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
Someone should close this discussion
Someone (preferably an admin) should probably close WP:THQ#Notice: I am considering quitting everything since it's a discussion that's going nowhere and seems more for the OP's vanity than anything else. I would close it myself, but I've just commented in it and feel it would be a bit odd for me to do so. -- Marchjuly (talk) 13:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Marchjuly I'm not sure closing is really necessary. Looks to me like it's come to a natural end and isn't going to continue. But feel free to close it if you wish. (As you know, I commented, too). Nick Moyes (talk) 19:59, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- You're right Nick. I was actually going to self-revert this post first thing since I reached the same assessment, but I'll leave it here now just for reference. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:17, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
Are we allowed to remove questions?
Hi. I was wondering if removal of posts are allowed, if it is obvious that the asker is not here for help. (Such as this one) Thanks! '''[[User:CanonNi]]'''
(talk|contribs) 11:05, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- Hi CanonNi. In my opinion, your best bet is to probably follow the guidance in WP:TPO, particularly WP:TPG#Off-topic posts. If you assess the post to be a serious violation of a policy like WP:BLP, WP:OUTING, WP:COPY, etc., you can probably remove it asap but should leave an appropriate edit summary explaining why. You then probably should seek assistance from an administrator (there are usually a few active at the Teahouse at various times of the day but there's always one at WP:AN) and ask them to review it because it might need to be WP:REVDEL if it's really bad. If it's a case of someone posting too much of their own personally identifying information (email addresses, phone numbers, real names, etc.), you can use the template {{redacted}} as well, politely explain to the person who posted why, and then contact an admininstrator or WP:OVERSIGHT to see if revdel or WP:SUPPRESS is needed. If it's just someone rambling about something unrelated to the Wikipedia per editing or something not really within the scope of the Teahouse (i.e. a general reference question), you can politely respond that such a thing isn't within the scope of the Teahouse and redirect the person to another Wikipedia page or another external website (if one exists). You can try to answer the person's question if you want, but that might lead to further discussion that might end up needing to be closed at some point. A lot could depend on the context of the post. For certain things, sometimes this posting a WP:DISCLAIMER like response works best because trying to delve into too much detail (especially about sensitive subject matters) might create a new set of problems.The account who made the post you're asking about has already been blocked for disruption, so there's no point in warning them about. The posts it made at the Teahouse have already been removed by an administrator named Graham87. For reference, though, posts like this could probably be non-contentiously removed per WP:R VAN or WP:TPG#Off-topic posts if you want, but you might want to check the poster's contributions' history first to see whether they're just drive by posting and have already been dealt with or they could possibly be asking a "legit" question. -- Marchjuly (talk) 13:11, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the detailed reply! I understand now.
'''[[User:CanonNi]]'''
(talk|contribs) 13:31, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the detailed reply! I understand now.
WP:Drafts - proposed split
There is currently a discussion at WT:Drafts regarding a proposed split of WP:Drafts. The thread is WT:Drafts#Split into help page and guideline. Thank you. S0091 (talk) 17:03, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
- The wikilink is messed up a bit. The discussion is at Wikipedia talk:Drafts#Split into help page and guideline. —andrybak (talk) 00:00, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
Dadvan Yousuf
There seems to be a coordinated effort to get "first Iraqi on Everest" into the article Dadvan Yousuf. In these two days alone, there have been five accounts asking about it here and on the article's talk page. Is there something we can do? '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 09:47, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- Not really, besides direct people to the talk page and provide reliable sources. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 15:34, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
- You could put an {{FAQ}} on the talk page but I have a hunch that it'd mostly get scrolled on by. -- D'n'B-t -- 18:52, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
Wikitia discussion seems to have moved beyond the scope of the Teahouse
@Anachronist and PrimeHunter: I think that WP:THQ#Deleting a page probably should be closed down because it has moved beyond the scope of the Teahouse. Assuming that the OP isn't trolling, there's nothing Wikipedia can do about Wikitia anyway and the IP's/OP's last response has even further moved a discussion in a direction that's just might lead to some things being posted that shouldn't be posted. Since you two are admins and both responded to the OP, the discussion could be continued on the OP's user talk page if either of you want to, but I don't see anything further to be gained by doing so at the Teahouse. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:02, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- Anyone can close a discussion, it doesn't have to be an administrator. I just wrapped it in archive tags. ~Anachronist (talk) 15:48, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
- I'm aware of that anyone can close a discussion, but I figured I give one of you the chance to do so given that the two of you had posted several responses; moreover, as admins, you're also capable of WP:REVDEL if you deem it to be necessary. Anyway, it's a moot point now since you closed the discussion and another user courtesy blanked it. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:23, 4 June 2024 (UTC)