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Issue raised: Does Wikipedia policy require that statements be supported by a single source?
The conversation on talk:Oathkeeper has branched out into whether a single source must support a given statement or whether multiple sources may be used. Given the discussion above concerning circular referencing, this topic may be of interest to Wikieditors interested in WP:V. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:54, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
- Generally, if the source is of a high quality and reliable, then a single source may suffice. But irrespective of the quality or reliability of a source, in the case of exceptional claims, or in the case of allegations about well known people, you definitely need multiple sources to support any material. In the absence of multiple sources, exceptional claims or allegations against well known people should be removed. Wifione Message 05:39, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
- WP:Syn already sufficiently explains what I believe to be the question you are asking. You can not take claims from one source and combine them with another source to make a new claim that's not directly supported by either source. Circular sourcing has nothing to do with this. Circular sourcing is when sources basically reference each other for the content of their material. So if a WP article cites Salon.com as a source and it turns out that the Salon article references WP as its source, then this is circular sourcing. Though you may be asking about something else, this is the only part of the discussion I remember having any relation to what you're asking here.Scoobydunk (talk) 06:35, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
- If the statement/claim/fact is controversial or surprising, it definitely helps to have more than one source. However, Scoobydunk makes a valid point... the sources have to directly support the entire statement, not just the various parts of it. Blueboar (talk) 10:44, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
- I believe that Darkfrog has been misinterpreting the discussion at Talk:Oathkeeper. IMO, as Scooby noted, the discussion has little to do with whether multiple sources may be used to support a statement. I believe the discussion is rather about DF's efforts to insert information into the article that multiple editors feel is inappropriate because they involve synthesis in that the sources (on their own or in combination) do not explicitly state what DF would wish to see included. On a separate but related note, the reliability of the sources has also been called into question on several occasions.
- There is no question as to whether multiple sources may be used, there is rather a proposal to require that statements comparing the episode to the novels upon which it draws must each be explicitly backed by a singular source. I would have hoped that such a proposal wasn't necessary, as I feel all it's effectively doing is restating policy as it current stands, but Darkfrog has been most vocal about their views, leading me to believe that it was necessary to come up with a consensus-backed and perhaps less ambiguous statement regarding the insertion of comparative statements into the article. DonIago (talk) 13:24, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'd also add that Darkfrog has been seeking to add these synthesized statements for almost three months now, despite consensus against it. She seems to be trying to find sources to support the statement, when it should be the other way around. Lastly, I'd point out that Darkfrog24 appears to be shopping for a different opinion, as the post here is but the latest in a very long series which include RSN, AN, AN3R and canvassing to almost two dozen other articles. It seems more than a little tendentious to me. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 13:58, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'm forced to agree that DF appears to be engaging in tendentious editing with regards to this. DF was previously referred to Wikipedia:Tendentious editing on at least one occasion. If the recommendation that they review it had any impact, I haven't perceived it. I've considered filing an RFC/U on the matter, but I have no experience with such things and my experience with their behavior is limited to a single article, so I'm not sure that would go anywhere.
- My apologies if I've taken this off-topic, but at this point I just don't know what else we can do to address the situation with finality. DonIago (talk) 14:14, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
- I'd also add that Darkfrog has been seeking to add these synthesized statements for almost three months now, despite consensus against it. She seems to be trying to find sources to support the statement, when it should be the other way around. Lastly, I'd point out that Darkfrog24 appears to be shopping for a different opinion, as the post here is but the latest in a very long series which include RSN, AN, AN3R and canvassing to almost two dozen other articles. It seems more than a little tendentious to me. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 13:58, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
- If the statement/claim/fact is controversial or surprising, it definitely helps to have more than one source. However, Scoobydunk makes a valid point... the sources have to directly support the entire statement, not just the various parts of it. Blueboar (talk) 10:44, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
- WP:Syn already sufficiently explains what I believe to be the question you are asking. You can not take claims from one source and combine them with another source to make a new claim that's not directly supported by either source. Circular sourcing has nothing to do with this. Circular sourcing is when sources basically reference each other for the content of their material. So if a WP article cites Salon.com as a source and it turns out that the Salon article references WP as its source, then this is circular sourcing. Though you may be asking about something else, this is the only part of the discussion I remember having any relation to what you're asking here.Scoobydunk (talk) 06:35, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Actually no, Scooby, I don't think you do understand what I was asking. Say we have two sources that support the statement, "The bluebird appears in chapter five of The Bird Book." One of these sources can establish notability but not verifiability and the other can establish verifiability but not notability. Respectively, these might be a newspaper article that cites Wikipedia (circular referencing) and the other might be a primary source, in this example the book itself (it's been argued that primary sources can't establish that content is notable).
Do we get to say, "Well we know it's notable from the newspaper and we can verify it from the novel, so the content is notable and verifiable" or must we find just one source that establishes both verifiability and notability?
As for Jack's and Don's claims, consensus was that the disputed content requires a secondary source, so I've been finding secondary sources (about nine of them at last count). "This is insufficiently sourced"/"Okay, here's another source"/"No not this source"/"Well here's another one" isn't tendentious editing. It's Wikipedia. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:58, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
- The source being used must be notable if you're trying to include it based on grounds of notability but it still must meet WP requirements of reliability and verifiability. So if the newspaper source is citing a WP article then it is no longer a reliable source for WP due to circular referencing.Scoobydunk (talk) 08:34, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
- I can see why circular referencing would make the exact line unreliable. It brings the factual accuracy of the statement into question. What I don't see is why that negates the fact that the author and editor of the newspaper considered the statement worth noting. They literally took note of it. (In this example, the newspaper is generally RS; let's say other articles from the same paper are used as sources elsewhere in the article, as in the case of AV Club over on Oathkeeper.) Why not establish notability from the newspaper and confirm the statement's accuracy somewhere else? Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:02, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
- If you're confirming the statement via another source then why do you need the original source to establish notability in the first place? If the second source is a reliable source then notability is inferred easily enough, and if it isn't a reliable source then it shouldn't be being used regardless. DonIago (talk) 12:59, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
- In this example, Doniago, the other source can establish verifiability but not notability. For example, I can look at a novel and observe that the bluebird first appears in chapter 5. It's a straightforward description of a fact, permitted under WP:PRIMARY. However, one respondent to an RfC argued that the novel itself wasn't sufficient proof that the content was also notable. The question is this: If we have one source that establishes that the text in question is notable, say a generally reliable newspaper (that in this case cannot establish verifiability, say because of circular referencing), and another that establishes that it is verifiable, say a primary source, is that sufficient to establish that the content itself is notable and verifiable? I say yes. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:43, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
- If the situation is really that convoluted then I don't think the information should be included to begin with. If you want to say "A bluebird first appears in chapter 5" because you observed it, then I think that's not notable. Find a reliable source that makes the claim and utilize it. DonIago (talk) 08:50, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
- In this example, Doniago, the other source can establish verifiability but not notability. For example, I can look at a novel and observe that the bluebird first appears in chapter 5. It's a straightforward description of a fact, permitted under WP:PRIMARY. However, one respondent to an RfC argued that the novel itself wasn't sufficient proof that the content was also notable. The question is this: If we have one source that establishes that the text in question is notable, say a generally reliable newspaper (that in this case cannot establish verifiability, say because of circular referencing), and another that establishes that it is verifiable, say a primary source, is that sufficient to establish that the content itself is notable and verifiable? I say yes. Darkfrog24 (talk) 04:43, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
- If you're confirming the statement via another source then why do you need the original source to establish notability in the first place? If the second source is a reliable source then notability is inferred easily enough, and if it isn't a reliable source then it shouldn't be being used regardless. DonIago (talk) 12:59, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
- I can see why circular referencing would make the exact line unreliable. It brings the factual accuracy of the statement into question. What I don't see is why that negates the fact that the author and editor of the newspaper considered the statement worth noting. They literally took note of it. (In this example, the newspaper is generally RS; let's say other articles from the same paper are used as sources elsewhere in the article, as in the case of AV Club over on Oathkeeper.) Why not establish notability from the newspaper and confirm the statement's accuracy somewhere else? Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:02, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Folks, the concept of NOTABILITY is about whether a topic deserves an article. It is not about the content of articles. The appropriate concept for article content is WEIGHT. Please use correct wikiterminology. Zerotalk 09:49, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
- Zero is correct... there is a difference between Notability and "Noteworthiness". Our various notability guidelines (such as WP:Notability) have nothing to do with whether X fact should be mentioned in an article. That is an editorial decision based on WEIGHT and RELEVANCE. Also, sources do not need to be notable, they need to be reliable. Blueboar (talk) 11:58, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks. I'll go ask about this issue over there. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:22, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
- The reason we use reliable sources is that they are supposed to be accurate. They are expected to use fact-checking not us. In my experience, tendentious editors who want to add dubious information will add lots and lots of sources, without reading them and often not accessible on-line, causing anyone challenging their statement to carry out considerable research. Certainly this is not something to encourage. And readers don't want to see 8 or 10 references for each statement.
- Furthermore, multiple sources cited for false information typically are ultimately sourced to the same original text. The book They Never Said That documents quotes that have been falsely attributed yet nonetheless can be found incorrectly attributed in multiple "reliable sources." As a general rule, when selecting sources one should use those most relevant to the subject. A book about Albert Einstein is more likely to get facts about his life accurately than a book about film-making.
- TFD (talk) 01:59, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Does the expert exception rule apply to pieces published in "questionable" sources, or only self published pieces?
Self explanatory title. The expert exception appears in the self published section, but an above discussion indicated support and no opposition for the notion that it would apply to questionable sources as well. Does the expert exception apply to "questionable" sources too, as long as we're confident that the source accurately transmits the author's words? VictorD7 (talk) 18:03, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
- I don't think the the policy explicitly states that, but I would think that that would be a reasonable conclusion. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:09, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
- If it's questionable in that it has a significant conflict of interest or poor reputation for checking facts, I'd stick with the standard rules for questionable sources: Use it for information about itself, as in, "According to biochemist Dr. Michael Behe of Lehigh University, living things could have been made by an intelligent designer." Is Behe an expert? Yes. He has a PhD. However, he's a major proponent of a fringe view not held by most life scientists. Stuff from his website is usable but it should be attributed to him. Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:06, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
- Perhaps there's a context to this question that I am unaware of, and there's certainly nothing wrong with in-text attribution, but I don't see how Behe meets the qualifications of an expert in regards to intelligent design. AFAIK, Behe's work in intelligent design has never been published by a respected peer-reviewed scientific journal. Yes, there was on article that slipped through the cracks, but it was withdrawn by the publisher IIRC. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:43, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
- Self-published sources are a type of questionable source. What the expert exemption means is that if an expert astronomer says alien abductions actually happen then it has the same validity as if it had been stated in a textbook. Anyone questioning the statement then has to provide other sources to show that it is a fringe view. TFD (talk) 01:00, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
- NO it doesnt, AT ALL. what it means is that if a an astronomer has been previously reliably published about astronomy, then other content she makes available about astronomy would be considered as valid as if it had gone through an actual publisher. It does NOT give her any "expert" status about aliens, and most certainly does not require third party sources to remove her claims about aliens. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:52, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
- The search for extra-terrestrial intelligence is a legitimate pursuit for astronomers. While this is an egregious example, there are well-respected historians, physicists, sociologists, climatologists, biologists, etc. who depart from the mainstream on such topics as the holocaust, evolution, relativity, free energy, racial equality, climate change, mental illness, and whether HIV causes AIDS. And I see no reason why their self-published works should be considered as reliable as their works that were submitted to peer-review. And while we all know that there are no little green men, the only way to determine whether fringe claims by reputable scientists are fringe is through familiarity with the reliable sources on the topic. TFD (talk) 20:35, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
- NO it doesnt, AT ALL. what it means is that if a an astronomer has been previously reliably published about astronomy, then other content she makes available about astronomy would be considered as valid as if it had gone through an actual publisher. It does NOT give her any "expert" status about aliens, and most certainly does not require third party sources to remove her claims about aliens. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:52, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
- If it's questionable in that it has a significant conflict of interest or poor reputation for checking facts, I'd stick with the standard rules for questionable sources: Use it for information about itself, as in, "According to biochemist Dr. Michael Behe of Lehigh University, living things could have been made by an intelligent designer." Is Behe an expert? Yes. He has a PhD. However, he's a major proponent of a fringe view not held by most life scientists. Stuff from his website is usable but it should be attributed to him. Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:06, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
- The idea behind the expert exception is that the word of an expert is considered reliable on its own merits even if it is not published by a reliable second party. But there is still a need to know that what appears in a source as the word of an expert really is the word of that expert. If an academic writes something on their own web page, we can be reasonably sure it is due to them, but if something appears under their name on a random online forum, we don't know if it is really them. If someone else on a random online forum claims to be quoting the expert, that counts for nothing at all. In summary, it is only in the definitely self-published case that the word of an expert is reliable on its own merits. No change to the policy is merited. Zerotalk 09:31, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
- <Insert>Zero, that's why I specified as long as we're confident that the source accurately transmits the author's words. No one's suggesting a change in policy, but most editors seem to think the expert exception would already apply to such a source.....say a prominent, mainstream site the author is known to work for, not just some random online forum. It sounds like you agree with me that the critical issue is having confidence the person really said what's being attributed to him. VictorD7 (talk) 19:13, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
- Piggy-backing on the idea of "it is only in the 'definitely self-published' case that the word of an expert is reliable on its own merits," I believe this also entails the narrative/bias of the source published in. Many questionable sources are questionable for reasons like conflict of interest or being mostly opinion pieces. So authors who get published by a questionable source that has a clear bias or specific audience have to tailor their opinions/work for the source. For example, Neil DeGrasse Tyson is a well reputed scientist however, if Tyson writes an article for Nickelodeon Magazine or appears on a kids show, his words will be tailored for the show and they may not actually reflect his opinion. So if he's explaining to kids that stars/solar systems are like snowflakes in the aspect of uniqueness, it doesn't suffice to go to a WP article and say "Snowflakes are like solar systems," or a WP article about stars and say "Stars are like snowflakes," citing Tyson's article in Nickelodeon Magazine. The material came from a questionable source whose bias clearly affected the narrative and presentation of information by the reliable expert. I believe this is another possible reason besides verifiability why the expert exception doesn't appear in WP:QS.
- This also applies to a questionable source's editorial process. An author who gets published in a questionable source may have had their original material compromised by the editing team to fit the biased narrative of the publication. So some things can be omitted or some things can be added to reinforce the narrative of the publication and those edits may not accurately reflect what the author actually thinks. However, a self-published source is more likely to represent exactly what the author/expert wants to say on a given topic and this is why the expert exemption is listed for self published sources and not for questionable sources. Scoobydunk (talk) 17:01, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
- Your first paragraph would be covered by other policies and guidelines, including DUE and general appropriateness, not QS. Your second speaks to being confident that the author really said what's being attributed to him. Unless he has a gun to his head, a column he wrote himself should be considered his words regardless of where he published it. His motivation and integrity are separate issues from his authority status. People can twist their own words or lie on self published blogs too.VictorD7 (talk) 19:13, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
- My first paragraph is covered by the policy of questionable sources. Your assertion that "Unless he has a gun to his head" is absurd. There are many instances where people have to edit or do things contrary to their personal beliefs or opinions to fit the narrative/criteria of their employer. There are many creationists science teachers that are still forced to change their language and teach evolution in the classroom. Who they are at work and who they are in person are two completely separate things. When a person writes in an article for a biased publication that they work for, the opinions expressed in their work can differ substantially from their actual own opinions. If they self publish their work they don't have to alter their opinions or answer to the editorial board. That's a valid reason why the expert clause exists in the Self published section and not the questionable source section.Scoobydunk (talk) 08:33, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- No, because you seem to be attacking the notion of someone's expertise to begin with, an argument undermined by the expert exception rule and your own creationist point. If a creationist is deemed a scientific "expert" then he's still an expert in self published writing where he's espousing a minority view, and the decision on whether to include his view on a particular matter would be governed by DUE, FRINGE, etc., not sourcing policy. Same with the Tyson Nickelodeon example. The coercion point isn't absurd because conforming to a publication's standard is a voluntary process. They don't have to publish there. As experts, which policy determines individuals can be, they've used their judgement to publish their views in a particular venue. If you're questioning their judgment in doing so then there would be no reason to accept their self published work at face value either, but policy does. Your argument also doesn't address situations when there's no reasonable doubt that the publication has allowed the expert to publish his own views without substantive interference. VictorD7 (talk) 18:15, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- The fact that it's a questionable source is sufficient reason to doubt the publication and what gets published in it. Hence why the expert exception isn't a part of WP:QS, no matter how much you want it to be.Scoobydunk (talk) 16:48, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
- Your response doesn't address what I said. We don't tag sources "questionable" for some reason and then reason backwards based on that supposedly absolute premise. A source may be reliable for one kind of content but not others. Here the hypothetical is an established expert giving his opinion in a high profile, mainstream venue where there's no reasonable doubt that he really wrote the piece. VictorD7 (talk) 18:15, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
- The fact that it's a questionable source is sufficient reason to doubt the publication and what gets published in it. Hence why the expert exception isn't a part of WP:QS, no matter how much you want it to be.Scoobydunk (talk) 16:48, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
- No, because you seem to be attacking the notion of someone's expertise to begin with, an argument undermined by the expert exception rule and your own creationist point. If a creationist is deemed a scientific "expert" then he's still an expert in self published writing where he's espousing a minority view, and the decision on whether to include his view on a particular matter would be governed by DUE, FRINGE, etc., not sourcing policy. Same with the Tyson Nickelodeon example. The coercion point isn't absurd because conforming to a publication's standard is a voluntary process. They don't have to publish there. As experts, which policy determines individuals can be, they've used their judgement to publish their views in a particular venue. If you're questioning their judgment in doing so then there would be no reason to accept their self published work at face value either, but policy does. Your argument also doesn't address situations when there's no reasonable doubt that the publication has allowed the expert to publish his own views without substantive interference. VictorD7 (talk) 18:15, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- My first paragraph is covered by the policy of questionable sources. Your assertion that "Unless he has a gun to his head" is absurd. There are many instances where people have to edit or do things contrary to their personal beliefs or opinions to fit the narrative/criteria of their employer. There are many creationists science teachers that are still forced to change their language and teach evolution in the classroom. Who they are at work and who they are in person are two completely separate things. When a person writes in an article for a biased publication that they work for, the opinions expressed in their work can differ substantially from their actual own opinions. If they self publish their work they don't have to alter their opinions or answer to the editorial board. That's a valid reason why the expert clause exists in the Self published section and not the questionable source section.Scoobydunk (talk) 08:33, 29 August 2014 (UTC)
- Your first paragraph would be covered by other policies and guidelines, including DUE and general appropriateness, not QS. Your second speaks to being confident that the author really said what's being attributed to him. Unless he has a gun to his head, a column he wrote himself should be considered his words regardless of where he published it. His motivation and integrity are separate issues from his authority status. People can twist their own words or lie on self published blogs too.VictorD7 (talk) 19:13, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19, a recent posting on the fringe theories noticeboard illustrates my point. (See "Cosmological General Relativity".) The theory, which postulates a five dimensional universe, was developed by Moshe Carmeli, who was the Albert Einstein Professor of Theoretical Physics at Ben Gurion University and President of the Israel Physical Society, and the theory has been published in peer-reviewed sources. One of Carmeli's researchers, John Hartnett, a Research Fellow at the University of Adelaide who has published 200 peer-reviewed articles on physics, including on Cosmological General Relativity, uses the theory to promote creationism on fundamentalist websites. His own website says, "Creation was only about 6 thousand years ago. God created the whole universe in 6 ordinary days and rested the seventh day."[1] TFD (talk) 01:32, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
- From what you say, it sounds like Harnett qualifies as an expert on Creationism, and could be cited as such... of course there is a very limited number of articles where it would be appropriate to discuss creationist views (per WP:WEIGHT)... but in those few articles, I could see citing him. Blueboar (talk) 01:46, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
- He qualifies as an expert on physics and cosmology and is not an expert on creationism. TFD (talk) 02:37, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
- From what you say, it sounds like Harnett qualifies as an expert on Creationism, and could be cited as such... of course there is a very limited number of articles where it would be appropriate to discuss creationist views (per WP:WEIGHT)... but in those few articles, I could see citing him. Blueboar (talk) 01:46, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Self-published sources
WP:SPS states: "Never use self-published sources as third-party sources about living people, even if the author is an expert, well-known professional researcher, or writer." If the editor-in-chief of a journal has control over what content the journal publishes, would an article written by the editor-in-chief which appears in his own journal and expresses opinions about the work of a third party equate to a self-published source? Is there a lack of editorial oversight in these instances? - Location (talk) 19:28, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
- It does not matter who writes in a journal, if it is a reliable source because content written by the editor is subject to the same editorial control. However, if it is an opinion piece, then it comes under rs policy for them, and they are not considered reliable sources for facts. TFD (talk) 23:42, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
RfC: Is this site an expert SPS?
There is an RfC at Oathkeeper regarding whether the site Westeros.org meets the criteria for an expert SPS. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:27, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Should petitions.whitehouse.gov be blacklisted?
There is a discussion at WP:ANI about whether petitions.whitehouse.gov should be blacklisted. The discussion can be found here. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:21, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
Disambiguation pages
Why shouldn't they be verifiable? I have created a page on variations, which was replaced by Variation dismbiguation page. It claims that variations without repetitions are called n-tuples these days. I doubt that (I would say than n-powers is more suitable). So, I requested a citation but it was rejected as disambiguation page is not a subject of verifability. It seems that I can take any page, write some shit there and refuse to provide any proof by attaching disambiguation status to it. Is this right? --Javalenok (talk) 14:47, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
- Disambiguation pages are not articles. They are (supposed to be) merely collections of links to articles with the same title. --Jayron32 22:47, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
Questionable sources
"Questionable sources" says, "Questionable sources [which are not usually reliable include] those that...have an apparent conflict of interest." That seems unnecessarily broad. That could include practically all news media - NBC is owned by GE for example and most media receive revenue from advertising. Typically television stations for accept paid political advertising. The footnotes apply more to journalists. A newspaper should not ask a journalist to investigate possible wrong-doing in a company his or her father owns. But we expect that reliable sources resolve those issues before publication.
I do not see how as worded the policy is helpful and is an invitation to challenging reliable sources.
TFD (talk) 00:47, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
- I think the information added in the source link thoroughly describes the type of things that make a source questionable due to a conflict of interest. Your example of NBC and GE doesn't seem to fit that description. I don't see NBC focusing on articles or segments attacking the competitors of GE or shamelessly promoting GE. That's different from other sources that can be considered as questionable by conflict of interest standards. One example I've recently been in debate with is Breitbart.com which has Fox as it's parent company. Breitbart.com has advertisements for Fox all over their front page, frequently use polls and opinion pieces from Fox for their own articles, and frequently attacks Fox competitors like MSNBC and CNN. I think the footnotes speak more to the latter than it does about a business that just happens to be owned by another company. WP:QS also says "apparent conflict of interest" which implies that it's only really an issue when it is obvious. So if NBC was writing article after article of trashing GE competitors while writing multiple puff pieces about GE, then it would be an obvious and apparent conflict of interest. So, I think the language is just fine given that the footnote expands on what reasonably qualifies as a conflict of interest when addressing questionable sources. Did you have specific language that you wanted to suggest changing it to?Scoobydunk (talk) 08:43, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
- Note that "questionable" does not mean "bad", or "never use"... it simply means it should be questioned. We should ask: "is this an appropriate source to support the information presented in the article?." The answer to the question might be "no, use another source"... but it could well be: "yes, this source is OK in the context in which it is used". Even the most biased of sources can be appropriate (and reliable) in certain limited situations. Blueboar (talk) 12:20, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
- Conflict of interest doesn't apply to ideological bias or networks posting negative material about their obvious news competitors, other liberal outlets constantly trash Fox too, and the footnote examples deal with personal or financial COI that could be misleading in a particular case if not disclosed. The "holding companies" mentioned refer to situations where a parent company (something diverse, like GE) has a media outlet it owns run negative stories about a competitor for another product it makes (like light bulbs). As Blueboar says, editor evaluation should be context specific. Reason should apply. VictorD7 (talk) 18:40, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
Discussion on placement of ref-related tags
Please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Inline Templates#Placement of ref-related tags, on placement of reference-related inline templates (e.g. {{verify credibility}} and {{clarifyref2}}) inside or outside the <ref>...</ref>
element. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 14:08, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
Deletion
I have added a brief passage to clarify that WP:BURDEN does not authorise non-compliance with WP:BEFORE, which is mandated by WP:DPAFD. I expect that this change will meet with more or less unanimous approval because it is already policy and will prevent WP:V being used as an excuse for disruptive vexatious AfD nominations of topics that are obviously verifiable and notable due to the existence of sources that can be immediately found with Google but whose articles do not cite any of those sources. James500 (talk) 08:35, 8 September 2014 (UTC)