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Proposal: Remove all mention of lineal titles in articles on boxers
I know it has been discussed before, but every time a 'lineal title' is mentioned in a Wikipedia article, the credibility of Wikipedia diminishes. Quite simply there is no lineal title or championship. Lineal 'status' is something that people have differing opinions on, and there is no recognized sanctioning body that administers a 'lineal' title, so for an article to state that a boxer is the lineal champion, or that a fight is for the lineal title, is totally unencyclopedic. Having an article on the concept of a lineal title is as far as we should go. --Michig (talk) 21:41, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
- Good. Good! I'm glad to see this brought up again. My last topic on it went nowhere despite the extensive discussion, but I knew there was something in it for another go-around. I'm still of the same opinion as I had back then, in that any attempts to introduce the ridiculously varying interpretations of lineal titles by boxing journalists, websites by every man and their dog, and fans for cryin' out loud, should automatically be flagged for violation of WP:NOR, WP:SYNTH, WP:V, and WP:GNG.
- The "lineal championship" is not, never was, nor ever will be, a tangible title that can be put in a display cabinet. It's a status—one that has no consensus in the form of WP:RS. That, therefore, fails every WP core policy. At the most, as I suggested in the previous discussion, we could mention that "[Boxer] is considered the lineal champion by [source 1], but this status is contested by [source 2]", whilst keeping it far away from lead sections and tables. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 00:10, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
- I do like the concept of a lineal champion, but it is just that, a concept. There is no official source/ranking system/criteria to reference. I’m definitely in favour of it being removed from record tables, however, I like Mac Dreamstate's idea of mentioning it like world rankings; but why not a sentence at the end of the lead? "[As of December 2019]...he is also ranked as the lineal welterweight champion by the TBRB, and second by the CBZ."– 2.O.Boxing 17:09, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
- We have now had the whole 'lineal' heavyweight list that was in the article deleted at AfD dumped into List of world heavyweight boxing champions, which also has a nonsense 'legitimate claim' column in the main table. Apparently someone believes that only the 'lineal title' and The Ring's corrupt belt are legitimate ways of becoming a world champion. Laughable. --Michig (talk) 20:04, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
- It's agenda-tastic, and calls into question WP's own credibility when such material is allowed to stay. These editors who come around promoting their interpretations of lineal titles think they're helping coverage of the sport, but they're only continuing to add to the confusion amidst the alphabet organisations' crookery (the WBA promised to eliminate Super/Regular titles by 2019—like hell they did). These edits being some of the most flagrant violation of WP:PROMO I've seen in a while.
- No other sport on WP has this kind of problem. An individual athlete or team either won something or they didn't; their place on statistical lists is either verifiable or isn't. In boxing, it's like wading through cloudy waters to find something (i.e., a "legitimate claim" to a title) that simply isn't there. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:27, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
- As I’ve said, I’m not opposed to the mention of a fighter being considered a lineal champion by the likes of TBRB, and just barely, CBZ, but a list purporting to be the list of lineal champions is misleading, not at all encyclopaedic and I presume goes against multiple Wikipedia policies. I’ve just reverted the one in the heavyweight champions article. The "source" was a BoxRec page copied from the CBZ, with a direct link to their website at the bottom of the page, so nope. – 2.O.Boxing 21:17, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
- I don't think we should ban mention of them entirely, but it seems obvious we need something in the MOS to explain how to write about them. I propose this:
- Avoid stating it as a fact. A lineal championship is an opinion and should not be stated in Wikipedia's voice.
- Undue weight - Don't include it in the lead unless it is a widely held viewpoint (ex. You need more sources than just the CBZ list.)
- Don't include the lineal championship in lists of champions, record tables or succession boxes.
Should we get an RfC started on this? If the initiative is taken now with regards to removing all mentions of lineal titles from leads and tables, some of the more determined agenda-driven editors will simply say that consensus wasn't strong enough here based on this discussion alone. Perhaps the same range of editors as the recently AfD'ed list could weigh in. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 18:08, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, it's best to deal with opposition to this before we start removing things from articles.
- Are there any suggestions to improve the wording? I'd like to move 3. to either the 2nd sentence or the end of 1. It seems to flow from one of those.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 14:08, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
The RfC didn't get us any more input, but I don't see any reason not to move ahead. The only issue is the order of the sentences. I changed it in the RfC from what I wrote in this section, moving point 3 to the second sentence. Mac Dreamstate commented on it, but I'm not sure if that was because you preferred it where it was originally, or just didn't notice that it was still there. --SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 16:47, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- Repeating point 3 was indeed an oversight. I've placed it in a new section below regionals and interims. Now that the mess involving Fury and Álvarez has kinda blown over following their recent big wins, we can only hope this lineal matter stays dormant until the next time we need to point to the MOS. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 17:37, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
It seems clear to me that we should make a list and include all people who have widely accepted claims to the lineal title. The lineal title is historically important and we shouldn't completely erase it from Wikipedia due to some former disputes. We can even include an interpretations section. --Thespearthrower (talk) 18:48, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
No contest
If a boxer retains a title via technical knockout, but the result is later overturned due to a failed drug test, is the title still listed as retained with the additional note to explain the failed test? Or is it retained with the additional note explaining the offender was stripped (as well as the failed test)? Or is it listed as lost (with the additional note of the drug test)? – 2.O.Boxing 19:46, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
- Interesting and unusual combination of events there. The closest I've tackled is the NC situations with Toney and Botha, when both won titles but were stripped; Khan–Peterson was also rather unique. Are there any examples of record tables where your described scenario has occurred? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:37, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
- I’m in the process of creating an article for Liam Cameron. He defended his Commonwealth title against Nicky Jenman via TKO but failed a post-fight drug test and was subsequently stripped of the title four months later. Here’s his BoxRec link. – 2.O.Boxing 21:02, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
- That makes it clearer. In cases where they got to keep a title despite an NC, I would list the reason(s) for the NC as normal, but simply omit any presence of a title from the field altogether; in a literal sense per NC, the defence "didn't happen at all". However, if they definitely got stripped afterwards, we could create a new string which reads:
Notes |
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Originally a TKO win for Cameron, later ruled an NC after he failed a drug test; Cameron stripped of title |
- This does mean that I may need to tweak some records such as James Toney, Chad Dawson, etc.; they currently have "for [title]" "retained [title]" after an NC result, which goes against what I just suggested above. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 21:21, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
- I’m good with that. I suppose there’s no need to include “Retained title”, as “Originally a TKO win” and “stripped of title” clearly implies the title was initially retained. Thanks for the input. – 2.O.Boxing 12:52, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
OK, I've been experimenting with the records for John Ruiz (thereby James Toney) and Chad Dawson (thereby Bernard Hopkins), and I can't settle on what looks right. In both cases, a boxer failed a drug test and the fight became an NC, although in this case it doesn't really matter how the NC came about. Ruiz (who originally lost his title) and Dawson (who retained it) got to keep their titles, but they did not "retain" them—the fights are null and void, and cannot be classed as defences. Likewise Toney did "win" the title in the ring, but his reign is nonexistent.
As I mentioned above, the format with which I was most tempted to go is to omit any mention of there being a title at stake for either boxer in an NC-nullified fight. However, in contrast to detailed trivia which is discouraged, the omission of titles may be verging on too little detail for the sake of historical value, since any title on the line (especially world level) should be of significance regardless of what happened to it.
What we could do is create a third outcome just for the purposes of NCs, to go with the "retained" and "lost" outcomes for normally occurring fights. Maybe something like "WBA heavyweight title was at stake". Mac Dreamstate (talk) 18:22, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
Notes |
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Originally a TKO win for Dawson, later ruled an NC after an incorrect referee call; WBC and The Ring light heavyweight titles were at stake |
- I think that’s a perfect solution. As an update on the Liam Cameron article, as it turns out, the CBC withdrew their sanction prior to the fight anyway, so the there’s no need for it there lol good work on the compromise though, makes a lot more sense than what’s currently used. Is it worth adding it to the MOS too? – 2.O.Boxing 19:31, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
- That's been added to MOS:BOXING/RECORD, under Notes. The way to display it is "[Title] at stake;" followed by the NC reason below it. I've edited quite a few articles to reflect the change, but only those on my watchlist—others are still in need of it, so a good way to search for the needed string via Google is to use either..
site:en.wikipedia.org "professional boxer" "nc after"
- or
site:en.wikipedia.org "professional boxer" "ruled an nc"
Mac Dreamstate (talk) 18:37, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
- I googled both strings and went through all the results they gave, changed the few that you hadn’t already, so if the searches picked up every instance then all should be sorted. – 2.O.Boxing 21:30, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Another tricky no contest
The two recent events held in Mexico City were not sanctioned by the Mexico City Boxing Commission, causing BoxRec (and rightly so) to officially list all bouts at these events as NC (first event, second event). I’ve added the latest bout and result to Miguel Berchelt's record and wanted some feedback on the explanation in the notes column. – 2.O.Boxing 12:31, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
Debut at a new weight
Can this be added to the RECORDNOT section? The majority of fighters tend to go through multiple divisions back and forth throughout their career, especially in the early days, so having "Debut at [weight]" for a third of their first ten fights would look unnecessarily messy. Even if a fighter competed solely at one weight and makes an official debut in another (such as Usyk), I still believe it's better served in the article body, as is with catchweight fights. As the MOS explains, the notes should be left for titles at stake, exceptional fight ending circumstances and notable tournaments. – 2.O.Boxing 20:08, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- Good catch. I'll expand the line which begins with "Miscellaneous trivia..." to include weight debuts. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 20:16, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
Should this article draft be accepted? Thanks! Calliopejen1 (talk) 05:32, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
- Calliojen1 he satisfies the amateur criteria set in WP:NBOX (Norway is AIBA affiliated and a World Championship medal winning country; has won Norwegian and Nordic national titles and competed at the European Games) so if the references are good I don’t see why not. Some parts read a bit promotional but nothing a quick trim wouldn’t fix. – 2.O.Boxing 10:45, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, accepted. Calliopejen1 (talk) 18:24, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Can anyone find more details about the career of Tadeusz Pietrzykowski, the boxer of Auschwitz?
I expanded his bio at Tadeusz Pietrzykowski, but most sources focus on his wartime unofficial matches and are very sparse about his pre-war and post-war official matches. Can anyone help? He qualified to the finals of the 1937 Polish Boxing Championships (missing article, on pl the list is at pl:Mistrzostwa Polski w boksie). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:10, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
Potential notability of Jonathan Kumuteo
Hi all! I was contacted off-wiki asking if an article could be made for Jonathan Kumuteo, and boxing is really not my sphere of knowledge. As such, I am not certain whether they are notable, and ask the input of people more experienced in this field. If they are, I'd probably add it to the list of requested articles for boxing, as I am by no means confident in writing a boxing related article as I understand none of the terminology. I've gathered a few sources after some initial googling, and it seems they may meet criterion 4 of the boxing SNG, but I'm not entirely sure: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12]. Thanks for your help, Vermont (talk) 18:58, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
Does he satisfy the criteria at WP:NBOXING? Among other things he is a two-time Asian Games bronze medalist. Thanks! Calliopejen1 (talk) 17:18, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
CfD
Dropping this link here as I expect minimal participation as is with all boxing related deletion discussions. Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 August 3#Category:International light-heavyweight boxing champions. – 2.O.Boxing 13:25, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
- I think it is a category that we should be keeping not deleting. --HuntGroup (talk) 16:55, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
WBC renamed minimumweight
WBC have renamed the division strawweight at their latest convention. Here's an article from World Boxing News detailing it. I've made the changes on the relevant WBC articles, just needs changing in the MOS. Also, are instances of past "WBC minimumweight champion" in individual articles to be kept as such or changed to strawweight? I'm ever so slightly leaning towards changing but not so sure. – 2.O.Boxing 15:29, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
- Changed at the MOS. Go ahead and change all instances retroactively wherever needed—it'll all point to the same article anyway. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 16:59, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
WBC female
Just a heads up. Despite this, I don't think we need to change any terminology.. unless they start putting men against women. Nor do we (hopefully) need to specify "WBC male". Mac Dreamstate (talk) 15:10, 18 August 2020 (UTC)
- Agreed.--HuntGroup (talk) 16:11, 18 August 2020 (UTC)