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== 10 (or more) things that cause the most "climate" damage == |
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*Tags that are more BITEY than necessary. |
*Tags that are more BITEY than necessary. |
Revision as of 07:49, 14 November 2012
Index |
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10 (or more) things that cause the most "climate" damage
- Tags that are more BITEY than necessary.
- See Wikipedia talk:First contact#un-intentionally biting a New Editor for an example.
- Having a generally constant but limiting "We are Adversaries" mindset rather than a habitual far-reaching "We are Collaborators" mindset.
- One is a closing. The other, an opening.
- Choosing words that degrade or attack the other editor or his edits vs. taking the time to realize the fragile nature of the novice editor.
- Forgetting that conversation is the natural way that humans think when they are together and, at times, it can get messy.
- Sarcasm.
- Sarcasm rarely works in RL. It is certainly out of place here. It leads to confusion, hurtfulness and trouble, even when tagged as sarcasm. It is an aggressive, dishonest form of communication.
- Alienation through use of aggressive idiolects or slang.
- Highly personalized or slangy writing styles are fine for friendly chats but not when debating serious issues with other editors, for whom such productions, which are not even amenable to machine translation, may turn out to be effectively more obscure than a different language.
- The interplay between (1) our affirmative and prompt deletion of certain types of articles (copyvio, unref BLP, attack, etc.) and (2) the complete lack of guidance to new article creators of those critical requirements before or during the article creation process.
- The combination of these two factors is the moral equivalent of a 20' pit lined with punji sticks. We can cover the punji stakes, but the problems remains; the pit, the lack of warning signage, and the stakes themselves. Please read Attractive nuisance doctrine. Suggestion; Since we are unlikely to give up the punji sticks (the copyvio deletions, etc), we put up a "sign" i.e., give new editors instructions in our policies before they create an article.
- Most times the new editor is concerned only with the article. But, the experienced editor is more concerned with the encyclopedia.
- The new user holds the article and his edits and his word choices as precious and can't bear to see them changed. They have great pride in their work and saving it becomes a mission. They need to be reminded that editing is not just a matter of deciding what to include. It's more a matter of what NOT to include. Because they misunderstand this fact, they see experienced editors as having a "cruel hands".
- Not enough praise for a new editors hard work. Sorry to say but some veteran editors think new editors are "clueless n00bs with a burr under their saddles."
- Everyone likes to be appreciated. When the new editor feels attacked instead, sparks start to fly and somebody gets burned (usually the new editor)
- Deletions.
- Signed and post-dated per request of Ottawahitech; ```Buster Seven Talk 15 August 2012
Just before this unsigned/undated entry disappears into the archives, I just wanted to say that for me the biggest issue at Wikipedia, from day one and until today, was and still is rampant Deletions. Ottawahitech (talk) 10:40, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
- That's true for the 25% of newbies who start by creating a new page, and it is an especially big problem for the minority of them who are creating stuff we want but get tagged by sloppy speedy deleters. However I'm not convinced that page deletion is such a problem for the 75% of newbies who start by editing existing articles, I think that they are more likely deterred by unexplained reverts and that all editors, newbies and old hands, are damaged by the shift from SoFixIt to template bombing that happened about five years ago. ϢereSpielChequers 15:39, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
- @WereSpielChequers, thanks - useful statistics - where are they from? I am also curious to find out how many articles are deleted daily under the different deletion processes? Looking at the deletion log it is easy to determine that there are definitely over a thousand pages deleted every day - that makes hundreds of thousands of pages deleted per year! Ottawahitech (talk) 02:16, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
- There is a good reason why this thread was unsigned and undated: 1) so that following editors would feel free to add to a potential growing list of "things" , 2) so that they would not feel the were infringing on another editors thread (or toes). From my experience, it is common not to take credit for an idea or a compilation of someone elses idea. Pre-August, another editor commented that it might be a good idea to search out 20 things that cause the most climate damage. These were the 9 that I contributed/compiled/collected. And 3) had I signed and dated, it may have gotten archived before it reached "adulthood". It looks like no one else added to that number. But they easily could have since Aug 15. No harm done. I still don't think it will be archived. Feel free to add nos. 10, 11, 12, 13, etc. That was the idea in the first place. ```Buster Seven Talk 07:45, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
Technical problems at Wikipedia - an issue for this WikiProject?
I have been running into several technical problems at Wikipedia which slow down my editing activities. This seems to be happening more and more often, at least for me. Are others also experiencing this? - If so, I believe this to be an issue for editor retention. In my case it is cause for frustration.
What do others think? Ottawahitech (talk) 18:14, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
- My desk has a dent in the shape of my head from the same thing, and it is all too common. Not sure what the Project can do in it though, and will leave to others to tell me. Like most problems with the Foundation, money is likely the primary problem. I read that we have less than 700 servers, yet we are the 6th busiest website in the world. Our redundancy is redundant enough, it appears. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 18:30, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
- Just wondering if it can be tied to the ever increasing number of software changes? (Just speculating) Ottawahitech (talk) 19:51, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
- I think a pseudo-solution would be to include links to the various village pumps in the sidebar. If everyone knew that village pump (technical) existed, technical problems wouldn't be so big. Ryan Vesey 18:47, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
- It's happening again (and again and again...ad infinitum) this morning:
- Sorry! This site is experiencing technical difficulties.
- Try waiting a few minutes and reloading.
- (Cannot contact the database server: Unknown error (10.0.6.73)) Ottawahitech (talk) 15:47, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry! This site is experiencing technical difficulties.
- @Ryan Vesey, I posted a couple of my compaints to Village_pump_(technical)- let's see what comes out of it. Today on top of Having to login to Wikipedia again and again I also got a Wikimedia Error page and lost a long and tedious edit which I entered, but which never made it to Wikpedia. Ottawahitech (talk) 17:02, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
- My experience is that technical errors and downtime of a site tend to create more of a community as users are very happy when the site returns plus they then have something in common(the fault or the downtime) and appreciate when things are working well. That being said, Wikipedia has a WP:NOTSOCIALNETWORK which may prevent the sense of community that happens elsewhere. Regards, Sun Creator(talk) 00:15, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- ..and again:
- "Sorry! This site is experiencing technical difficulties.", SIGH... Ottawahitech (talk) 00:39, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
Just to continue my first posting under this heading: this morning I tried to add two new categories to Hurricane Sandy. The first one was added with no trouble, the second one, even though I got no error message has not been added after two tries. Who else here has had trouble that they were able to resolve? Ottawahitech (talk) 15:06, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
Personal notes at the end of a Welcome
Retaining new editors may be easier than we think. As soon as WE make them part of US they feel wanted and included. I added this to the end of a welcome I posted for a new editor. Granted, this editor reached out to me Before I welcomed him but I am confident he will be a good editor. Not because of me, but because of his own confidence:
- Good luck and happy editing. From my observation, the biggest problem that new editors have is they want to drive in the fast lanes right away. They don't even have a learners permit but all they see is the road ahead and the gas pedal. They are bound to crash. So much depends on our early travels. Inevitably, you will run across an intolerant editor. The place is full of them. Just don't let their bites be fatal....or let them waste your time. Be careful of what you say. Consider it from many angles. WE (Wikipedia Editors) often mis-read and misconstrue what we say to each other. When in doubt, step back and take a break.
Just an example of a successful contact.--Buster Seven Talk 19:26, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, yes I agree. The first greetings at Wikipedia are VERY important - both positive and negative. However, sometimes the chemistry is just not there, even if you try vey hard. Ottawahitech (talk) 05:13, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- @Buster7, I notice you do a lot of welcoming at Wikipedia. I wonder if you keep track of those you welcome - If so, would you share those statistics with us? Ottawahitech (talk) 15:31, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
- The only way I keep track is via "My contributions. When I first started to do welcomes as a daily chore (not really a chore) I would watch the asst pages for a week or two. But my watchlist got so cluttered it was tedious to slog thru. Now I just do my welcomes and I'm on my way. Every now and then, I will sense that a new editor is or will soon be visited by a stern template. Those I do show on my watchlist and I jump in to soften and personalize any discussion. I remember when Wiki Guides was started by the Foundation we were asked to report progress via "related changes". Maybe they have some stats that were gathered from that period. I'd be willing to do the grunt work if someone sets up something that would provide some form of statistic. I too wonder if there is a study on the success or failure of the varied Welcomes. I like the one I'm using since it provides the most info in a nice clean and clear fashion. ```Buster Seven Talk 00:33, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- You can use the ToolServer to get a list of your welcomes based on your edit summaries. I think it's one of Scottywong's tools. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:41, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks Kudpung. What a great tool. Turns out I have about 2400 Welcomes. Just yesterday I started to forego the edit summary step since it required individual entry on each users page. Had I continued in that manner it would be difficult, if not impossible, to keep a count. Now it took all of 10 seconds. I'm glad to find out that I should return to entering "Welcome " in the summary box. ```Buster Seven Talk 06:14, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- You can use the ToolServer to get a list of your welcomes based on your edit summaries. I think it's one of Scottywong's tools. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:41, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
Inexperienced guidance will lead to fatalities for new editors
Please see User talk:SarahStierch#Adoption and provide assistance. An inexperienced (fill in the blank) new user, User talk:RAIDENRULES123, is insisting on adopting other new users. Considering assorted factors it can only lead to the detriment and malnourishment of the New Users she adopts. What can be done? This issue deals directly with Editor Retention. The new users this editor adopts are, without a doubt, in harms way. ```Buster Seven Talk 05:02, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- If I was brand spankin' new I wouldn't want some whack job showin me the ropes. 216.80.117.134 (talk) 05:19, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- Please see User talk:Brybry1999. I am tempted to step in and say something to User:Bry and give another viewpoint but I'm reluctant to upset User:Raiden. This needs to be handled with kid gloves to assure a positive outcome for all.```Buster Seven Talk 06:26, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- When I was a child, my parents purchased a set of world book encyclopedias for me. I remember clearly the salesman pushing them to also buy Childcraft, cause that was an encyclopedia for elementary school kids. I don't know why I think that is relevent, but i thought I'd just add that in to the mix. Gtwfan52 (talk) 06:39, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- Part of the mix is child-like behavior so I think thats where yer' coming from. ```Buster Seven Talk 06:55, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- Just dropped a note on BryBry's talk giving him some suggestions for getting started at Wikipedia (he has already worked on three articles) and suggesting some minimum qualifications for an adoptor. Gtwfan52 (talk) 07:14, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- Well Done, Fan. You have eased my troubled mind. ```Buster Seven Talk 07:52, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- Just dropped a note on BryBry's talk giving him some suggestions for getting started at Wikipedia (he has already worked on three articles) and suggesting some minimum qualifications for an adoptor. Gtwfan52 (talk) 07:14, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- Part of the mix is child-like behavior so I think thats where yer' coming from. ```Buster Seven Talk 06:55, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- When I was a child, my parents purchased a set of world book encyclopedias for me. I remember clearly the salesman pushing them to also buy Childcraft, cause that was an encyclopedia for elementary school kids. I don't know why I think that is relevent, but i thought I'd just add that in to the mix. Gtwfan52 (talk) 06:39, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- Please see User talk:Brybry1999. I am tempted to step in and say something to User:Bry and give another viewpoint but I'm reluctant to upset User:Raiden. This needs to be handled with kid gloves to assure a positive outcome for all.```Buster Seven Talk 06:26, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- When I first joined Wikipedia an experienced editor (admin) tried to coach me. It was an unmitigated disaster that ended up with my adopter suggesting I was under-age (a compliment, I suppose :-). The moral of the story is, there are other considerations to take into account, other than experience alone. Ottawahitech (talk) 15:19, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- Your point is taken. Each editors early experience is unique. Our early travels and hook-ups are the builing blocks of our WP careers. This specific issue is not one of experience over lack of experience. Its one of the Blind leading the Neophyte. I'm glad you hung in and developed into a Quality Editor. Most will not be so lucky. New Editors depend on current editors for proper guidance. We wouldn't send a new editor to learn from "those vandals that hang out over there" ... would we?. You cant self appoint yourself a Driving Instructor two weeks after you get your learners permit. ```Buster Seven Talk 15:37, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- @Buster7, thanks for saying I have (luckily) turned into a Quality Editor. Unfortunately, it seems others here think that I am Blind. If you check this page's history you may see this edit summary: "Revert to revision 516519718 dated 2012-10-07 19:52:01 by Ottawahitech using popups" - which would lead one to suspect that one of my contribution here was reverted earlier, no? Ottawahitech (talk) 14:54, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, that is true. But, not to worry. Within minutes it was reverted back to your original by User 13dzf59b. My guess is that GogoDodo was doing some speed type of edits and not verifying the accuracy of his determination. There is alot of WikiPedia grunt work that needs to be done. Some times you dig a hole in the wrong spot and some other editor comes behind and fills it back in. All's well that ends well as they say. ```Buster Seven Talk 15:19, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Note the edit in question reverted the edit following the one made by Ottawahitech, going back to the page as it appeared with Ottawahitech's edit. isaacl (talk) 22:59, 31 October 2012 (UTC)
- Your point is taken. Each editors early experience is unique. Our early travels and hook-ups are the builing blocks of our WP careers. This specific issue is not one of experience over lack of experience. Its one of the Blind leading the Neophyte. I'm glad you hung in and developed into a Quality Editor. Most will not be so lucky. New Editors depend on current editors for proper guidance. We wouldn't send a new editor to learn from "those vandals that hang out over there" ... would we?. You cant self appoint yourself a Driving Instructor two weeks after you get your learners permit. ```Buster Seven Talk 15:37, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
In reference to new editors adopting and mis-advising new editors, and the importance of retaining and correctly advising the improperly adopted new user, please see User talk:Impromp2Music#Thats aweful! and the following thread, User talk:Impromp2Music#Transporterman. Luckily this new editor is being given good advice and being nurtured by veteran editors. Not all newbies are so lucky. ```Buster Seven Talk 09:17, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia surveys
For the first time in my wiki-career I have been invited to participate in a wiki-survey. I made it to page 2 (out of many more judging from the % completed bar at the bottom), but had to give up at that point.
So my question is, how many people complete the surveys out of how many who attempt? Does anyone at Wikipedia keep score? Ottawahitech (talk) 15:46, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Partial response sets are a natural part of every survey. However, I'm not actually sure that your responses are recorded if you "give up" midway through the survey. I, Jethrobot drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 18:12, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- I completed the survey, but by the end I was asking myself the same question. How many people actually finish it? I found it to be a little long. –Mabeenot (talk) 19:46, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- @Mabeenot, I was given a second chance to participate - I am completely drenched now because I was afraid to leave before completing the whole thing - didn't want my work to go to waste. Not sure if would have done it if I knew upfront how mUch work it would require :-) Ottawahitech (talk)
- I completed the survey, but by the end I was asking myself the same question. How many people actually finish it? I found it to be a little long. –Mabeenot (talk) 19:46, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Depends much on how important the users rate participation the survey. Other considerations are:
- 1. It it an official survey or one started by an independent user?
- 2. What identity protection guarantees were provided, and if so, did initiator signed an NDA with the WMF?
- 3. What security does the software offer?
- 4. Was the software easy to use?
- 5. Were the questions prepared by someone with experience in survey psychology and technique?
- 6. How was the data to be extrapolated and used?
- 7. What 3-party survey software was being used?
- 8. Is it locally hosted or offered by an online provider? (eg. The very name of SurveyMonkey is known to evoke skepticism).
- In my experience of conducting many (non Wki) surveys, respondents generally get fed up with surveys that take longer than around 10 minutes to complete. A Wikipedia survey I once initiated had around 3,000 respondents from about 5,000 targeted users. According to the WMF, after removing trolling and other unusable responses, only around 900 responses were used in the analysis. The survey was open for responses for 2 weeks. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:17, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Answers from OHT:
- 1. it was official
- 2. no idea
- 3. don’t know
- 4. Sometimes, but:
- pull-down menus with tons-of choices took me awhile to figure out (gave up on my first try because choices were not alphabetized.
- pages were too cluttered for my taste – several questions on the same page
- I was not told which questions were optional - trial and error wasted precious time
- 5. I don’t think I was told…
- 6. I don’t think I was told…
- 7. I don’t think I was told…
- 8. I don’t think I was told… Ottawahitech (talk) 21:47, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
- Answers from OHT:
The questions were actually rhetorical but thanks for answering. If it was official there would have been an email address to provide feedback on the survey itself. If you were asked to provide your user name or email address, there should have bee a legal disclaimer on the survey introduction. Obviously I can't ask what the survey was as that would publicly connect you with it, but it sounds a bit fishy to me. If yhou know who raised the survey, I would suggest taking all these points up with them. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:22, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- This is the link I was given: Wikimedia:Research talk:Wikipedia Editor Survey 2012. This will provide me with way too much reading material, as usual :-) Ottawahitech (talk) 15:46, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- That link's dead. This is the information on the survey. –Mabeenot (talk) 17:31, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
- It was indeed a very poorly designed survey, from the partly non-neutral MC options to the use of the extremely expensive 3rd party software service provider, and the formatting of the questions. I'm no simpleton (because survey design was part of my post-grad studies), but it took me nearly double their estimation of the time to complete. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 16:53, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
SPAs - should we work on retaining them?
Should we work on retaining Single Purpose Accounts (SPA)s at wikipedia? Those are the bad guys at Wikipedia, right? Well, in my opinion we should all do more to keep at least some of them here.
Let me give an example: has any of you checked out Malala Yousafzai? This article was built with a whopping 528 contributions from an SPA, User: Fortibus in a span of 8 days in October of 2012. An impressive contributor who not only conributed the majority of content, but also did a superb job of motivating others on the talk page of this article.
Many here believe that the number of views of articles don't matter, but I still believe that 755,270 views in Octber of 2012] alone is a excellent way to draw more potential contributors and donors.
Unfortunately, User: Fortibus has now disappeared and has not contributed anything substantial for almost a month. Do you all agree that this is the type of wikipedian we should do more to encourage? If so – what can we do? Ottawahitech (talk) 19:41, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see it as a priority for this WikiProject. An SPA can choose to become more involved and if they do all well and good. Editor retention should concentrate on those who have shown their commitments to the project as a whole. Many SPA's that I have come across are spammers. -- Alan Liefting (talk - contribs) 21:08, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- Being a SPA doesn't mean someone is a bad editor. It's not perjorative, it's just a descriptor. Many SPAs only edit to push a niche POV though, while others are very productive. IRWolfie- (talk) 21:16, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- While it is true that SPA are largely responsible for the addition of promotional pages and edits and autobiographies, some produce excellent work and I would hesitate to class them all as bad editors. That said, I think it is highly unlikely that many SPA have an interest in becoming regular editors - that's why they are 'SPA'. There may be some rare exceptions, but It's probably not worth editing time and effort doing a 'sales' job on them. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:45, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
- My thoughts are pretty consistent with the above. Being an SPA isn't against policy and as long as they act within policy, I have no issue with them, even if they are paid. They aren't a priority when it comes to editor retention, however, as their goals aren't to build an encyclopedia but instead to maintain singular facts or pages. Our priority should always be to first concern ourselves with editors who contribute in multiple article areas for the betterment of Wikipedia in general. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:15, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
RFC
There is an RFC ongoing that may be of interest to many members of this Project. It concerns returning of admin tools to admin who have been desysoped due to inactivity. View it here Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 15:19, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
- @Dennis Brown, a while ago you started a thread on this talk page bringing some problems with the wp:Requests for adminship process to the attention of partcipants in this wikiproject. I can see what you were talking about now that I have gathered the courage to participate. I suspect this particular RFA will be used in future to point to all that is wrong with process. Ottawahitech (talk) 21:13, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- The sad thing is that we often lose good editors at RfA, sometimes the candidate, sometimes their peers. I don't have a problem with adminship having a high bar, but I think we dwell on minutia too much at RfA. While adminship isn't the primary focus of WP:WER, it certainly does affect editor retention directly and indirectly. We want good admin who are calm, fair and can learn from their mistakes. Some want perfection. My own RfA wasn't exactly a walk in the park [1], although I now get along just fine with almost every one of the 31 people who opposed me. I had been here over 5.5 years and had 18k edits, including a 90% track record on 1600 AFDs, well over 90% in CSD (that was the main complaint, btw) and hundreds of ANI contribs, and an Arb co-nom'ed me. It could have easily gone farther south. I've seen better candidates than me get opposed off the page. To keep good editors here, we need good admin as well. Admin that still understand they are part of the community, not separate from it. And thank you for participating! Never be afraid to be on the minority side of an issue, as that can change in the blink of an eye. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 00:13, 13 November 2012 (UTC)