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Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/WikiProject used
Could a few people take a look at this page? A student of mine edited this as a class project. It reads well from a (rat) visual research perspective, but it might not fully conform to WikiMedicine standards or cover the major clinical applications of this region. Thank you ProfRox (talk) 12:34, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Sellick maneuver and Sellick manoeuvre
I suggest that the articles Sellick maneuver and Sellick manoeuvre should be merged 688dim (talk) 19:17, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- I agree. Axl ¤ [Talk] 19:22, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
- Merge completed (although still needs tidying up) at Sellick manoeuvre, but now needs moving to cricoid pressure to comply with WP:MEDMOS. Can someone with admin rights complete this? If not, i'll post it at requested moves. OwainDavies (about)(talk) edited at 09:46, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
Input needed on accuracy of vaginal anatomy
Hi, all. As the heading of this section shows, input is needed with regard to presenting vaginal anatomy in the Vagina article as accurately as possible. Your help, even if just commenting on the matter, is very much needed. See Talk:Vagina#Changes about anatomy and sexual activity. Flyer22 (talk) 19:14, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
- It looks like a couple of people are trying to sort this out, but if anyone's got a decent textbook on gynecological anatomy, I'm sure they'd appreciate hearing from you. Apparently the sources to date have been along the lines of howstuffworks.com. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:45, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
- Hm.. anyone working on it? It is severely lacking in some parts as it is now. Richiez (talk) 21:07, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- I am waiting for you to respond to my comments, Richiez. Axl ¤ [Talk] 21:23, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- And I am waiting for Axl to respond to me while Axl is waiting for you to respond to him, LOL. Although I already figured that was the case, he let me know on my talk page that he was waiting for you and that this is why he hasn't yet commented on how he would tackle the mucous membrane issue (since some anatomical/medical sources describe the vagina as being a mucous membrane or having mucous membranes). I was planning on using Axl's sources for not only that information (whether I used the term mucous membrane or not), but other information that should have high-quality sources backing it as well. Flyer22 (talk) 21:55, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- Too much politeness from all editors.. reminds me of the dining philosophers problem;) I thought I would keep my fingers away from it as it looked like others are taking good care of it. Will look over the talkpage again and try to answer any questions. Richiez (talk) 13:35, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
- LOL, Richiez, it does remind me of that. I assure you that I would have eventually taken care of the issues, though. Like I stated, I was planning on using Axl's sources (the ones that I need)...as well as ones Axl did not provide. After trading out a few sources and simply adding others, I would have contacted Axl about the mucous membranes issue...seeing as we need to figure out the way we are going to describe the structure of the vagina without using the term "mucous membrane(s)." Axl's Wheater's Functional Histology, fifth edition source uses the words "mucosal layer," so I'm not sure if you or Axl would accept that instead, for example. I also note to WhatamIdoing that the article mostly has scholarly sources. The health.discovery.com (howstuffworks.com) source isn't the worst non-scholarly source, but it and the poor-quality ones I mentioned on the talk page will be replaced. It's a matter of including high-quality sources that essentially say the same thing as, or more than, the health.discovery.com source (such as the information about the "outer one-third of the vagina, especially near the opening, [containing] nearly 90 percent of the vaginal nerve endings and therefore [being] much more sensitive to touch than the inner two-thirds of the vaginal barrel." A lot of people don't know just how few nerve endings the vagina has, which is one reason why so many men and women are perplexed when a woman doesn't get much physical pleasure out of vaginal intercourse and barely or will not reach orgasm from it. As someone very familiar with that topic, I was confused as to why it wasn't already in the Vagina article...and this is one of the ways that the health.discovery.com source became a quick fix for the article (along with the quick-fix scholarly source and quick-fix Go Ask Alice! source backing it). Flyer22 (talk) 16:45, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
- Too much politeness from all editors.. reminds me of the dining philosophers problem;) I thought I would keep my fingers away from it as it looked like others are taking good care of it. Will look over the talkpage again and try to answer any questions. Richiez (talk) 13:35, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
- And I am waiting for Axl to respond to me while Axl is waiting for you to respond to him, LOL. Although I already figured that was the case, he let me know on my talk page that he was waiting for you and that this is why he hasn't yet commented on how he would tackle the mucous membrane issue (since some anatomical/medical sources describe the vagina as being a mucous membrane or having mucous membranes). I was planning on using Axl's sources for not only that information (whether I used the term mucous membrane or not), but other information that should have high-quality sources backing it as well. Flyer22 (talk) 21:55, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- I am waiting for you to respond to my comments, Richiez. Axl ¤ [Talk] 21:23, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- Hm.. anyone working on it? It is severely lacking in some parts as it is now. Richiez (talk) 21:07, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- As of the mucosal layer, I would avoid all mention of anything that could confuse the reader into thinking there is a mucous membrane. The best we can do describe what PMID 19598112 says which is stratified squamous epithelium in adults. Some years ago I did a literature search about the development, specifically of the vaginal epithelium but looking at the new sources my older findings are probably all obsolete;) As of the "three layers of tissue" this can not stay like that. It is not at all clear from the text if it is about epithelial layers or epithelium/myoepitheluim or some other structuring. To make it more complicated the number of layers depends on stage of maturation, vaguely recall that prepubertal girls have fewer layers.. which would be important to describe if I manage to find that source. The issue of the lower and upper vagina is an interesting one, I thought that they correspond to portions resulting from mullerian vagina and the portion formed from the urogenital sinus. However, looking at PMID 20638775 this may not be so easy and it might turn out difficult to find good sources. Richiez (talk) 18:34, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
- But what about the modern-day sources, such as the ones Axl provided, that do describe "mucous membrane" in relation to the vagina? I'm wondering if the Mucous membrane article shouldn't simply be expanded with different definitions. On Wikipedia, we don't just give one definition for a term when there is more than one. If we don't use "mucous membrane" or "mucosal layer," what do we use in place of what these sources are describing about the vagina? And good point about the "three layers of tissue" bit; that should definitely be specified, elaborated on. As for the lower and upper vagina bit, every reliable source I have read on the matter makes clear that most of the vagina's nerve endings (which, again, are few) are present near the opening of the vagina.
- Also, should we continue to work out all of this here or at the Vagina talk page? Should I transfer this discussion there? Or should we finish the matter here and just note that the other matters were worked out here? Flyer22 (talk) 19:15, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
- Would you guys (Flyer22 & Richiez) mind copying your statements to "Talk:Vagina"? It is preferable to keep the entire discussion in a single place to help other readers follow the flow. Thanks. Axl ¤ [Talk] 20:46, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
- No objections whatever you do with it. Richiez (talk) 21:18, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
More eyes on Hypercholesterolemia
I would appreciate more eyes on this article. There appears to be an attempt to add undue weight to fringe ideas about the role of saturated fats to this article. Yobol (talk) 21:37, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
- Agree and as it is a top importance article could use some improvements generally.--Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:23, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, I've been off the radar for a few days. I have opened threads on the talkpage and the user's talkpage, although I'm starting to wonder whether he has gone out for some fresh air. JFW | T@lk 11:49, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
Wiki Journal Club
Howdy folks! I've been MIA for such a long time that I've lost touch with so many of you. Tragic! In any case, I wanted to explain my absence by way of introducing an exciting new project I've been working on. Some time ago a few stray editors had suggested adding landmark clinical trials to Wikipedia. There would be COPERNICUS, SOAP II, etc., all existing in the main Wikipedia namespace. That caught on to a small degree, as evidenced by Category:Clinical trials. However, Wikipedia's encyclopedic nature doesn't quite lend itself to true journal club-style discourse. So a few colleagues -- Tim Plante from Georgetown University and Manny Lam of Stanford University -- and I have created Wiki Journal Club, a collaborative journal club summarizing and critiquing landmark clinical trials in medicine. We're off to a great start and have been featured in the Stanford School of Medicine blog Scope [1] and the UCSF School of Medicine newspaper Synapse [2]. Since this project grew out of fundamental wiki principles, I'd love to hear the thoughts of my fellow Wikipedian physicians, and would even more so love to see some -- or all! -- of you pop in and say hello and maybe even write an article summary or two. ;-) --David Iberri (talk) 17:29, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
- Would be great to have a WMF project that does this. There is something similar proposed here that could accommodate this sort of effort nicely. http://strategy.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposal:Journal_%28A_peer-review_journal_to_allow/encourage_academics_to_write_Wikipedia_articles%29 This project is also looking at the possibility of publishing primary and secondary research. The primary research bit of course would tie into Wikidata. --Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:48, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Priority pages
As the old-timers may remember, a group of editors called the WP:1.0 team periodically produces an offline release of the best and most important articles on the English Wikipedia. Another release is planned for (I think) sometime this fall. Naturally, all of us here would like the medicine-related articles that are included to be the best feasible quality, and since we're looking at something like 1,300 medicine-related articles, I think we need a bit of a head start.
This link will show you the ones that are currently deemed likely.
The determination depends in part on WPMED's own priority assessment: we can pretty much assume that all of our top-priority and most of our high-priority articles will be included. And that means that we need to get our ratings corrected. For example, there are a number of purely anatomical articles in this list that need to be tagged for WP Anatomy rather than WPMED. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:20, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Agree. And some of the pages that are purely WP:MCB should be tagged with just that as well IMO. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:48, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Since I don't have time to do all this myself, here's a reminder that anybody is welcome to do this. There is extensive advice at WP:MEDA, and you can always ping me or Doc James or any of the other MEDA regulars with any difficult questions.
- Also, quality ratings matter. If your favorite page looks underrated (lotta "former stubs" need re-rating), then please fix it or let us know. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:35, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
request to review good article status of Post-concussion syndrome, and request for help making this article better
Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch
For the four reasons which I give, I am proposing that our article on Post-concussion syndrome no longer meets the criteria for a good article. Please participate in this discussion if you have the time and interest. And also please help make the article better, so that if we do 'demote' the article so to speak, perhaps we after we improve it, we can again list it as a good article. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 18:52, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Great you have found the right spot to post. You will need to provide more details regarding your concerns. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:28, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you for the directions. Okay, my concerns are on Talk:Post-concussion syndrome page, primarily in the "GA Reassessment" section. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 22:13, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
1RR proposal at circumcision
I invite you to vote in this proposal for a 1 revert rule limit to the circumcision article. Pass a Method talk 00:05, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
Review of deleted article requested
Dear Wikipedia editors,
Extensive advertising content |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Thank you for your oversight and consideration of the content about the Wurn Technique (WT), a patent pending manual physical therapy practiced at Clear Passage Physical Therapy® (CP) affiliate clinics in several U.S. locations. We would like to address specific concerns that appeared on this discussion page prior to deletion, most of which had to do with “only two” independent secondary sources (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/The_Wurn_Technique). Of the dozens of references of the WT found in literature and the media, we will provide here a truncated list that includes 23 written secondary sources (14 citations in consumer reference literature, and 9 studies and citations on the WT published in respected independent medical journals). Television coverage on the evening news in cities throughout the U.S. has also been fairly extensive. Based on the significant amount of independent secondary coverage documented as follows, we respectfully request the return of the deleted citations and pages noted. Wiki editor comment: Delete Promotional, not notable. Nothing but press releases at Google News. This is an alternative-medicine technique (and like many alternative-medicine techniques, it claims to be effective for an astonishing variety of unrelated issues, ranging from infertility to endometriosis to fallopian tube occlusion). It was invented (and apparently is only practiced) by a husband-and-wife team of physical therapists. --MelanieN (talk) 19:19, 12 May 2012 (UTC) Regarding the comment “This is an alternative-medicine technique”: This is inaccurate as the WT is a physical therapy protocol. Physical therapy is considered mainstream medicine by the American Medical Association. Regarding the comment “it claims to be effective for an astonishing variety of unrelated issues, ranging from infertility to endometriosis to fallopian tube occlusion”: We feel that effectiveness in several areas should not be a reason for deletion. This therapy has a single intent – to decrease adhesions. Adhesions are a major cause of female infertility and fallopian tube occlusion, and implicated as a cause of endometriosis pain. Adhesions cause pain or dysfunction in many systems of the body. Given this fact, it is understandable that the WT has improved these and other adhesion-related diagnoses, with results measured and reported in respected peer reviewed journals. The fact that WT has been shown to improve these adhesion-related conditions is noteworthy. We believe that excluding a therapy simply because it has been shown to be effective in several venues does not promote knowledge. Regarding the comment “It was invented (and apparently is only practiced) by a husband-and-wife team of physical therapists”: This is inaccurate as licensed physical therapists practice the WT in a growing number of clinics locations throughout the U.S. Patients travel for the therapy from all US states, and internationally (see map, info and links at http://www.clearpassage.com/about/locations/). Regarding the comment “Search of "Reviews" in PubMed shows no reviews available. -- Yobol (talk) 17:03, 11 May 2012 (UTC)”: We are unsure how the editor got this information. Entering “Wurn” in Pubmed’s search bar brings up several studies on the work. (see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=wurn) Regarding the comment “Delete, per concerns noted above regarding a lack of secondary sources and potential promotion and conflict of interest. The only two sources included in our article are the initial 2008 publication of the technique in a low-impact alt-med journal (Alternative therapies in health and medicine has a 2010 impact factor of 1.215 [2]) and a 2006 conference poster presentation.” --TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:38, 18 May 2012 (UTC)”: This is inaccurate, as there are nine published studies and citations in respected peer-reviewed journals on this work (three cited in PubMed). We are glad to add those to the Wiki articles, where appropriate. Regarding the comments “Delete: Lacks evidence of independent coverage. The only reliable sources available appear to be primary sources directly affiliated with the subject. Could be recreated if/when independent secondary-source coverage is available.” MastCell Talk 17:09, 18 May 2012 (UTC) and “Promotion of non-notable method without sufficient coverage in secondary reviews. We can't use primary sources for a non-notable technique. If this gets much better coverage we can reconsider. -- Brangifer (talk) 22:25, 19 May 2012 (UTC)”: Considering the above, and the following citations, we herein present evidence that the technique is notable, with coverage in reliable secondary sources than previously thought. We respectfully request that the deleted text be reviewed and recreated. We are glad to add additional published studies to the text, including footnotes, where appropriate. A note on our published studies: Nine studies or citations about this therapy appear in some the most respected journals in their particular branch of medicine, including Medscape General Medicine, Fertility and Sterility, Contemporary Ob/Gyn, Journal of Endometriosis, Alternative Therapies in Health and Medicine. Before publication, all studies had to pass peer-review by medical and scientific experts in the field covered by that journal. Part of each reviewer’s task was to determine if the data and scientific methods were valid and reasonable, if the studies add valuable information to medical knowledge, and if they are important enough to share with physicians and the general public, via publication in their journal. Thus, passing peer review provides a de facto endorsement of the validity of the data, from independent (secondary) medical experts in the field. Since these published citations passed independent scientific and medical peer review sufficient for publication in respected medical journals, we request that the text entries and articles be re-posted in Wikipedia. Several of the published studies on the WT appear in the U.S. National Institutes of Health, National Library of Medicine (NIH-NLM). Three are easily searchable by entering the search term “Wurn” at www.pubmed.com and others can be accessed using the URLs noted below. Following are citations, with website references, and comments about the journals and authors where appropriate. 1. “Treating Female Infertility and Improving IVF Pregnancy Rates With a Manual Physical Therapy Technique” is cited in NIH-NLM at: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1395760/ 2. “Increasing Orgasm and Decreasing Dyspareunia by a Manual Physical Therapy Technique” is cited in NIH-NLM at: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1480593/ These studies were published in Medscape General Medicine. At the time of its publication, Medscape was the largest physician-subscribed online medical journal in the world, with 2.4 million physician subscribers in 239 countries. The editor who published studies on the WT is George Lundberg, MD, editor-in-chief of the esteemed Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) for 17 years before becoming editor of Medscape General Medicine, and publishing our studies. (see http://www.medscape.com/public/bios/bio-georgelundberg) Credibility: Medscape General Medicine is owned by WebMD, consistently recognized as a leader for the credible information it provides. Forbes Best of the Web recognized WebMD among the top health information sites in 2007 (the year after our publication). It also received the Frost & Sullivan Market Leadership Award for its market leading Personal Health Record and the WebWare 100 Awards for being one of the top reference websites, along with several other awards. In 2006, at the Consumer Directed Health Care Conference, WebMD received recognition as the Best Web Site for Consumer Health Information. More recently, in 2011 WebMD ranked number one for the Most Trusted Consumer Brand in the U.S. (Millward Brown Global Stud), Most Trusted U.S. Consumer Brand and Most Trusted and Recommended Internet Brand. (see http://www.webmd.com/about-webmd-policies/awards) The study “Treating fallopian tube occlusion with a manual pelvic physical therapy” was published in Alternative Therapies in Health and Medicine, a respected peer reviewed medical journal. This study is cited in NIH-NLM at: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18251317 Due to its importance to gynecologic physicians, the above study was further cited in Contemporary Ob/Gyn, a peer-reviewed journal of most U.S.-based gynecologists and obstetricians: http://contemporaryobgyn.modernmedicine.com/about. The journal, which presents important new evidence-based studies to U.S. physicians, ranked number two in market share, per an IMS report (11/2009). The citation titled “News: Can noninvasive pelvic physical therapy open occluded fallopian tubes?” can be viewed at: http://www.modernmedicine.com/modernmedicine/article/articleDetail.jsp?ts=1337614540855&id=510093. (You must register, at no charge, to view the article.) The two studies titled “Decreasing Dyspareunia and Dysmenorrhea in Women with Endometriosis via a Manual Physical Therapy: Results from 2 Independent Studies” recently published in the international Journal of Endometriosis can be found at: http://www.j-endometriosis.com/public/JE/Article/Article.aspx?UidArticle=3BD6D1B2-6020-424E-9FD0-E17AF8FD400C. Three pilot studies were independently reviewed and considered important enough to be published in Fertility and Sterility, a leading peer-reviewed medical journal in obstetrics, gynecology and reproductive medicine, first published in 1950. These are titled: 1. “Treating endometriosis pain with a manual pelvic physical therapy” 2. “Treating hydrosalpinx (blocked fallopian tubes) with a manual physical therapy” 3. “Improving sexual function in patients with endometriosis via a pelvic physical therapy” Fertility and Sterility is the professional journal of the American Society of Reproductive Medicine and the leading journal of Reproductive Endocrinologists (physicians with an advanced specialty in reproductive medicine). The studies are available for viewing to reproductive specialists at http://www.fertstert.org/search/quick. Authors of the various published studies have excellent credentials, including: C. Richard King, MD, Research gynecologist for 40 years, and former Chief of Staff of North Florida Medical Center, Gainesville, Florida, USA. Marvin Heuer, MD, former Director of Worldwide Clinical Research as SmithKline, Beecham, and former Research Director at Integramed (Nasdaq: INMD), the largest public provider of in vitro fertilization (IVF) in the US. Jonathan J Shuster, Ph.D., biostatistician, has authored 220 published NLM studies in journals including The Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM), Journal of Clinical Epidemiology, Clinical Cardiology, Pediatric Neurology, and the British Journal of Haematology. Dr. Shuster regularly oversees and/or acts as Principal Investigator for $10-30 million in funded NIH research. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=shuster%20JJ Eugenia Scharf, PhD With a Doctorate in Tests and Measurements, Dr. Scharf served as researcher/writer for Time-Life Books’ The Medical Advisor, before leaving that post to become Editor of The Women's Health Digest under Morris Notelovitz, MD, PhD, internationally known expert in osteoporosis research and treatments. Mark Kan, MD, board certified reproductive endocrinologist, faculty of UC Irvine’s College of Medicine. The Advisory Board to WT and CP clinics includes faculty (physicians and PhD scientists) at noted medical schools (Harvard, Columbia, Northwestern), and the founder of the Endometriosis Association. (see http://www.clearpassage.com/about/advisors.php)
In addition to the above studies, the therapy has been cited in the media in many consumer sources that are used as references by people looking for credible information for their healthcare needs. A truncated list follows: Consumer reference books by physicians and PhD scholars: 1) Women’s Bodies, Women’s Wisdom – this NY Times bestseller by gynecologist Christiane Northrup cites the Wurn Technique, or Clear Passage Physical Therapy (clinics where the work is performed) as a treatment for pain or infertility in seven separate locations, one noted below: “Find a physical therapist trained in the Wurn Technique, a noninvasive, nonsurgical type of deep tissue massage that’s performed by specially trained physical therapists.” 2) New Hope for Couples with Infertility Problems, by T DiGeronimo and P Gindorf, MD "the procedure (Wurn Technique) offers much hope for women whose medical history indicates possible adhesion or micro-adhesion formation or poor biomechanics, and women whose infertility is unexplained." 3) What to do When the Doctor Says it’s Endometriosis, by Thomas Lyons, MD “The Wurn Technique®. . . a non-surgical soft tissue technique, has been effective in treating women with infertility problems." 4) Stay Fertile Longer, by Mary Kittel and Deborah Metzger, MD, PhD "Fertility Visionaries, Clear Passage Therapies: Even health care practitioners who themselves had had no success with medical and surgical infertility treatments came, and had successful pregnancies." 5) Do you want to have a baby? Natural Fertility Solutions & Pregnancy Care, by Sarah Abernathy and Linda Page, PhD "While long believed that surgery procedures were the only way to even partially decrease these problems [pelvic adhesions, blocked tubes, or other types of trauma or inflammation in the reproductive organs], bodywork therapists (Wurn Technique) have found deep tissue work can not only decrease mechanical blockages, but also reduce pelvic pain and improve sexual arousal and orgasm for women. What a bonus!" Consumer reference magazines: 6) Utne Reader "Best sex ever: A holistic treatment results in really hot sex” "The Wurn Technique® is an internal and external form of manual manipulation of the body's soft tissue and fascia (connective tissue), that aims to break up adhesions. This process, the Wurns believe, is what helps bring the pleasure back to sex." 7) Psychology Today "Pressing Flesh" "Ninety-one percent of the participants in a recent peer-reviewed study of the Wurn Technique experienced an overall improvement in sexual function; 56 percent reported an increase in the intensity and duration of orgasm." 8) Health "The Right Touch Boosts Fertility" "The (Wurn) technique, originally developed to treat musculoskeletal and postsurgical pain, may help reverse inflammation that can upset normal reproductive function." 9) Natural Health "Massage Delivers Babies" Deep-tissue massage therapy (The Wurn Technique®) is showing promise as a treatment for some types of infertility. . . . Statistics show this effect is more than a coincidence." 10) SELF, "Having Trouble Getting Pregnant?" "Get a massage. But not just any massage – try the Wurn Technique®" 11) Conceive "Rubbed the right way" "Clear Passage Therapies was developed as a method to repair pelvic adhesions that can prevent a woman from conceiving or carrying a pregnancy to term....To date, 167 [confirmed] babies have been born to mothers who received the treatment [early 2007].” 12) Massage & Bodywork "Hands of Hope: Massage for Infertility" "Clearly, the breakdown of adhesions through such non-invasive, less-expensive means has its benefits, including restoration of fertility, decrease in pain, and an overall improvement in the quality of life." 13) Physical Therapy Advance "PT for Infertility: A new manual therapy technique could be an effective treatment for infertility" "Results compiled by a professional researcher and former senior health policy advisor with the NIH, indicated infertility reversal for a significant percentage of women who have received the treatment." 14) Massage & Bodywork "Soft Tissue Massage: Infertility Treatment of the New Millennium?" "As a treatment for adhesions and tubal obstruction, the non-invasive approach of the Wurn Technique® is considered a safe and cost effective therapy." TV News specials: The Wurn Technique® (WT) and Clear Passage Physical Therapy® (CP) have been featured on the evening TV news in 80 U.S. cities, with additional coverage by Fox-TV News crews in several cities: New York City, Miami, Orlando (twice), Tampa and Gainesville, Florida and Toledo, Ohio. We did not pay for this coverage; the stations carried the features due to the newsworthiness of the therapy. We are glad to send you whatever film we possess, if you like. |
Considering all of the above, we respectfully request reposting of all deleted text and articles. We will add additional study references to all articles, where appropriate. We also request to know whether it is appropriate to also create an entry for “Clear Passage Physical Therapy,” which is equally cited, that defines the clinics that are licensed to perform this work.
Thank you, again, for your oversight and consideration. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Annaclear (talk • contribs) 17:27, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- WP:TLDR but, in general, we have a guideline for notabiliy (being "notable" means it is "important" enough to have an article) here and the reliable sources we use are listed here. For example, being mentioned on the nightly news doesn't make something medically important. It takes medical sources to establish that. I have no opinion on this matter yet. But if you can show that multiple reliable medical sources that are independent of the subject give detailed coverage/analysis of these subjects then there is an argument for notability. Biosthmors (talk) 17:57, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Books that publish physician opinions are not WP:MEDRS unlike a clinical practice guideline from a recognized authority, for example. Biosthmors (talk) 18:01, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- I should emphasize that we need reliable independent, secondary sources, which include medical reviews per WP:MEDRS. Responding to the comment directed at me above, I note that none of the Pubmed sources are secondary sources, but are primary one and do not establish notability. Any discussion about the organization Clear Passage should meet notability criteria for organizations. Note the need for independent sources to establish notability. Yobol (talk) 18:04, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Wurn Technique was a pretty clear close. To challenge this, Wikipedia:Deletion review is the proper venue. I'd suggest such a laundry list of marketing materials will not go over well with most Wikipedia editors--we don't care for excessive promotion. It's quite clear this is a marketing venture...please be aware of our conflict of interest guidelines. — Scientizzle 18:55, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
WP:CONFLICT Wikipedia: NOTYOURS circumcision
Hello, There are big problems on the page circumcision... Particularly, the rules are not followed by user:Jakew : WP:CONFLICT He has just published a study with Brian Morris proposing to Asian (and especially Chinese and Japanese) the establishment of the U.S. practice of routine circumcision : http://www.nature.com/aja/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/aja201247a.html Wikipedia: NOTYOURS http://toolserver.org/~daniel/WikiSense/Contributors.php?wikilang=en&wikifam=.wikipedia.org&grouped=on&page=Circumcision Why the rules are not enforced on this page? I think that contributors should not be activists (pro or anti) but all the members of the WikiProject Medicine...— Preceding unsigned comment added by Suwq Ede (talk • contribs) 00:07, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
- It is a controversial topic. Some of us have provided feedback at different point of time. Along as all are using the best available evidence. --Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:11, 31 May 2012 (UTC)
- Suwq, I do not understand your question about "Why the rules are not enforced on this page?"
- The COI guideline says, "Editing in an area in which you have professional or academic expertise is not, in itself, a conflict of interest" (at the WP:SELFCITE section) and go on to say that a published expert is welcome to cite his own publications. Therefore the rules are being enforced. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:20, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
Anatomy
WikiProject Anatomy seems to be mostly dead. Almost a month ago I proposed a few relatively major changes on its talk page but no-one has responded since. Could anyone here take the time to check out my ideas and highlight potential flaws (as well as generally say if it's a good idea)? In a nutshell, I'm trying to propose the merger of several stubby articles on anatomy (for example subcostal artery and intercostal artery) into bigger articles on topographical anatomy, (like Chest wall which I'm working on right now). An alternative I've since thought of would be to keep the stubs but place links in their leads.
In each case the more general anatomy articles need attention and as WP:anatomy seems to be mostly dead, I also proposed asking for attention (or possibly even folding into) wp:med. Thoughts? Elennaro (talk) 20:04, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
- Having overview articles with sub articles linked from them IMO is the best strategy. If you check our the article on obesity we have sub articles on Classification of obesity, Genetics of obesity, Management of obesity, Epidemiology of obesity etc. where each of these issues are discussed in greater detail.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:00, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
- By that you mean you would favor keeping the stubs? I have nothing against doing just that - creating better topography articles and linking to the anatomical entities in question - but I'm rather afraid most of the articles are going to be, well, stubby. Though there might be something in it too: we can't put the detailed course of every single vein in a general anatomy article, and some structures cross anatomical compartments. Elennaro (talk) 17:14, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- Having overview articles with sub articles linked from them IMO is the best strategy. If you check our the article on obesity we have sub articles on Classification of obesity, Genetics of obesity, Management of obesity, Epidemiology of obesity etc. where each of these issues are discussed in greater detail.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:00, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
Our content published by someone else without appropriate attribution
This book [3] look very much like our articles on HIV and AIDS. And was of course published after we wrote our article. Gupta, Priya (2012). Understanding and Management of Special Child in Pediatric Dentistry. JP Medical Ltd, 2012. p. 264. ISBN 9350256312. The bigger question is regarding how this effects verifiablity going forwards. This cartoon is coming true http://xkcd.com/978/ Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:37, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- "Looks very much like our articles"? It's blatant plagiarism! Well spotted. The entire "Virology" section and much of the "Transmission" section of "HIV" has been copy-pasted into the textbook. I wouldn't be surprised if the whole chapter is copy-pasted from Wikipedia's articles from the time of the author's activity. Axl ¤ [Talk] 09:38, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- Looks like the editor of the book is the one who wrote the chapter, I would guess it is very likely that large sections of the book have been lifted from other sources. Looks like the author/editor is based out of India, as is the publisher. Canada Hky (talk) 14:36, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- It could be listed at Wikipedia:Republishers. There's a talk page tag, {{backwardscopy}}, to indicate when an article has been cited by/used by another source, so perhaps that's what we should do. There are three footnotes (search for Wikipedia and Wikimedia) that cite WMF websites, but those pages are unreferenced. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:26, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- And if you read the first pages of the book the publisher claims ownership. The whole book however must be under a CC BY SA license per the "share alike requirement". I have added notes to the two talk pages in question.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:30, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- Hmm, does that mean that I can copy their whole book and sell it for my own profit, provided I acknowledge it as CC BY SA? Axl ¤ [Talk] 16:59, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- Yes you can. The whole book is now under a CC BY SA copyright. I assume most of it is from Wikipedia anyway. By the way are you the editor of much of the virology content? I am just touching base with Amazon regarding this. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:29, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- LOL. No, I have not edited those articles much. Axl ¤ [Talk] 18:38, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- A couple of people have already posted "reviews" of the book on Amazon, declaring the plagiarism. I have added my comment, although it will be a couple of days before it appears. Axl ¤ [Talk] 19:45, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- Yes here is the link to amazon [4] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:40, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- A couple of people have already posted "reviews" of the book on Amazon, declaring the plagiarism. I have added my comment, although it will be a couple of days before it appears. Axl ¤ [Talk] 19:45, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- LOL. No, I have not edited those articles much. Axl ¤ [Talk] 18:38, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- Yes you can. The whole book is now under a CC BY SA copyright. I assume most of it is from Wikipedia anyway. By the way are you the editor of much of the virology content? I am just touching base with Amazon regarding this. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:29, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- Hmm, does that mean that I can copy their whole book and sell it for my own profit, provided I acknowledge it as CC BY SA? Axl ¤ [Talk] 16:59, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- And if you read the first pages of the book the publisher claims ownership. The whole book however must be under a CC BY SA license per the "share alike requirement". I have added notes to the two talk pages in question.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:30, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
Response from the publisher
Dear Dr. Heilman and Mr. Cohen
We have received your mails concerning text in Understanding and Management of Special Child in Pediatric Dentistry. We have taken the matter up with the editors of the book and the contributors to the chapter in question. We take care to ensure the veracity of texts, but in this case our systems appear to have failed. However, we have decided to permanently withdraw the book from sale, and we will remove the title from our website and recall the book from our wholesalers and distributors. Thank you for bringing this matter to my attention. Yours Sincerely Tarun Duneja Director:Publishing
Jaypee Brothers Medical Publishers Pvt Ltd
Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:55, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- Wow, what a score! How did you do this? Did you write only to the publisher, or to Amazon also? Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:57, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- Wrote to both. And a little newspaper from the USA. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 22:13, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
Globalization
The article Globalization has undergone major re-structuring. WikiProject Medicine members are invited to review and comment on the article and add relevant missing information or sections in which your project may have an interest. Also, you may be interested in reviewing the updated Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/Globalization proposal for a new WikiProject. Regards, Meclee (talk) 14:50, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
Wikimania
By the way is anyone here planning on going to Wikimania this year? I have booked my flight down July 11th and home the 15th. Would be great to meet fellow medical Wikipedians. --Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:24, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
- I'll be there. --RexxS (talk) 15:41, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
- I will be there and I also want to meet fellow WikiProject Medicine members. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:54, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- Great that will be three of us anyway. --Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:18, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
- I will be there and I also want to meet fellow WikiProject Medicine members. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:54, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
Dyslexia
The Dyslexia and related article which are in need of revising are being decimated by s group of editors from the So called Disability project. Thye have little or no idea about what dyslexia is and only want to mkae the article look good regardless of content for a peer review. Could you keep an eye on this. As you are no doubt aware, do to the communication disabiliyt that causes my own dyslexia i am not able to copy edit an article to wikipedia standards, but can only provide the support citations, etc. I am not able to put into words what I understand successfully. So when so it seems that there is now a need for some good quality editing on all of the Dyslexia dyslexia project articles before this develops into an editor war. dolfrog (talk) 07:20, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
Project proposal - Health Article Review Project
Hello WikiProject Medicine. My name is Lane Rasberry and I was recently hired by Consumer Reports as their outreach:Wikipedian in Residence. I have not made a formal announcement about the scope of what I am doing with them but I wanted to share one project with WikiProject Medicine now. If anyone has input into this then I would appreciate advice.
I am proposing a Wikipedia:Health Article Review Project (WP:HARP) in which medical residents, during their classes and at their instructor's behest, use a template to review health-related Wikipedia articles on that article's talk page. They would be doing this in small groups in about 20 minutes with no prior Wikipedia editing experience and with no support from an experienced Wikipedian. This project would be advertised in a very popular course curricula distributed throughout the United States. I am presuming that medical residents ought to be able to read a health article and have valuable opinions on how the articles might be improved, and that they could share those opinions on the talk pages of articles with little difficulty if they were guided by a written tutorial at the project page, and that trying this project is unlikely to have a bad result even if unexpected things happen.
I would like to think that this project supports the interests of WikiProject medicine but I express some concerns and doubts on the talk page for that project. What do you all think of this proposal? Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:47, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- Hey Lane. This was done by Google a number of years ago with little benefit for Wikipedia per Wikipedia:WikiProject_Medicine/Google_Project. We all know that many of our pages are of poor quality. The lack of further review is not the issue. The issue is the number of volunteer editors is so small. And it is a huge amount of work to bring a single article to GA quality.
- The second issue is that many people come and wish to add a primary research study that is neither notable or due weight.(for example which is better Tango or Foxtrox for Parksinson's based on a sample of 58 [5] added a half dozen times by a group of grad students [6]) Many people (including most graduate students) do not understand the difference between a review article and a peer reviewed article (I did not realize they where not the same when I first arrived either). So IMO instructions on Wikipedia's medical referencing requirements and how to find review articles on pubmed would be the first step. This followed by some time spent on our manual of style WP:MEDMOS and how to properly format a reference using the good tool in the top of the edit box or diberri's tool [7] when that is down (which occurs frequently). People could than take a review article and start improving a Wikipedia article using it. If you need a list of articles in need of improvement drop me a note. Also if you could give us a list of article they are working on that would be great too. And once again welcome. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:27, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- I certainly have my doubts about this project but I do want to explore your objections.
- I have no need for a list of articles in need of improvement because I know of no way to industrialize the process of turning new Wikipedia users into the kinds of people who could easily improve medical articles, and I know of no population of current Wikipedians who is requesting such a big project. I need a much simpler task to introduce people to Wikipedia.
- One difference between this and the Google project is that the review would be done by volunteers rather than mandated staff, so there would be a lot more reviews. Also the process of reviewing is helpful to the reviewer, whereas the Google experts might not have been inherently interested in providing reviews which may not get a reply soon.
- I know the Foxtrot story and I agree that learning the difference between good and bad sources is not something that graduate students can inherently do, and this is why I am not proposing that any participants in this project actually edit articles. I am not sure how much time a person needs to study Wikipedia before editing Wikipedia, but it is certainly a number of hours over a period of days. I designed this project based on resources - an audience of medical residents who each have 20 minutes - and based on the likelihood that the project participants could do something that would not cause harm, would cause some good (however small), would be a fun and practical introduction to Wikipedia, and which would be able to be incorporated into a classroom.
- You say that learning Wikipedia referencing, finding an article on pubmed, and reviewing the MEDMOS are all together the first step. This is a lot to ask of anyone who has never even before considered editing Wikipedia, and even more to ask of first-year medical residents who are known for having their schedules very full. What you are proposing about adding a reference seems like an hour commitment at least, and even then there are lots of people who read these things for hours and still do things improperly. You are asking for a minimum of a few hours as an introduction, right? That is a hard sell to drop on unsuspecting residents - can you think of anything else they might do in less time and with less commitment? Blue Rasberry (talk) 19:14, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- Yes agree. And if the reviews are posted on the talk page as you say it will cause no harm. I am not opposed to your idea and it would be a learning experience for the residents.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:42, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
Counter proposal
Supposing that one could communicate anything to a large number of medical residents (which are new doctors who just received their medical degrees) and that the message was certain to only be targeted to this population because this would only be advertised by a curricula-producing medical society. This group of hundreds of students would be in class, and they would have 20 minutes to do something on Wikipedia. That 20 minutes includes learning how to use Wikipedia and will not mandate any follow-up, and voluntary follow-up is unlikely. The request could be made perpetually for many school terms for so long as the students actually did something on Wikipedia and outcome of the request was enjoyed by Wikipedia.
Who has ideas for how this could be a valuable resource? Can it be a valuable resource? The best idea I had was to have this population review articles. Whatever any class of medical residents is studying, they can review articles related to their class. Blue Rasberry (talk) 19:14, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- How about us creating a one page overview on how we work and a few suggestion on simple things one can do to help? Residents can than decide which they wish to do. I agree that providing a review may "hook them". A review will get them to realize how much work needs to be done and than maybe they will come back latter and fix it. We just need to emphasis that review article / major textbooks should be used as references. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:48, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- I have invited NCurse to comment. Axl ¤ [Talk] 20:34, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- If you are proposing this as a giant one-off, then I think everyone's 20 minutes could be spent somewhere else. What you are proposing sounds like putting into writing on a review page what everyone already knows - some articles suck. I think you either need to come up with something where they actually contribute, or leave things be. A bunch of mini-reviews by first year residents aren't likely to improve the information on the article. If it is in the curricula with sources they can use, and articles they can add them to - awesome, but for them to just mark up the talk page of a random medical article doesn't seem like a good use of anyone's time. Canada Hky (talk) 22:43, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- Two thoughts:
- The anatomy-related articles might be easier than disease-related articles. For example, most anatomy articles could do with a small section that tells readers what diseases appear if the given bit of anatomy is screwed up. (Whether this is added on the talk page or the article page is unimportant to me; I think that identifying problems and proposing solutions on the talk page is a perfectly fine activity for a newbie.)
- My #1 priority for all medical students, at a practically-ought-to-be-on-the-boards level, is to understand what "anyone can edit" means, i.e., that the patient waving a print out of a Wikipedia article under your nose might well have written that article himself. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:31, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
- Those are great points. If it is to be an exercise for students, rather than reviewing articles - I would suggest they find a factual or interpretive error in a medical article and take steps to correct it - even if it doesn't involve editing the article, but just pointing it out on the talk page and providing a source. Canada Hky (talk) 01:02, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
- Agree it would be nice to come up with something that would both improve Wikipedia and be a learning experience for them. As mentioned it however can take some education before people are ready to edit. At least this will cause no harm and maybe they will come back latter and fix the article to match the review. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:13, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
- @Canada Hky - This is the best use I could imagine of 20 minutes of each students time with no training and no in-person support. There are two decisions to make - one is to either accept or reject their offer to do something on Wikipedia, and then the second decision is that if this offer is to be accepted, then what do we ask them to do. I would prefer them to edit articles but I have not yet identified any way to get a Wikipedia newcomer to contribute meaningfully without studying and preparing for at least hours, and the only commitment I have at this point is that instructors will ask residents to do something in class in small groups for 20 minutes. This does not have to be a one-off - the curricula could go out to the majority of first-year medical residents in the United States perpetually for as long as the students like it and for as long as Wikipedians like it. I also would like for students to be able to provide sources to correct an error, but the problem is limited time and uncertain interest. The residents will be going into class not knowing anything about Wikipedia and then their professor will confront them with this in-class project. I think that many medical residents will be excited about getting to participate in Wikipedia for their first time, but I think they would be less excited if this meant hours of commitment at their first encounter. I am told that it is unlikely that medical residents would consistently have time for unrelated Wikipedia homework after class. I certainly am hoping that they can find errors in articles. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:54, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
- @WhatamIdoing I also think that the biggest value in this project is raising awareness among health professionals of how Wikipedia works. The 20 minutes is going to be more beneficial to the individual who spends it on Wikipedia than it will be to Wikipedia, but I still expect that this will not harm Wikipedia and will usually provide some small good to Wikipedia. I anticipate that anyone will have limited ability to influence which articles residents edit. This project will go out as an optional exercise in a curricula for hundreds of students, and any class could be studying anything. Probably the residents would review articles related to whatever the class is discussing on that day. In some cases the students would see articles in the "suggested review" section and be persuaded by that advertisement to review that, but the choice belongs to the residents. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:54, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
- Agree it would be nice to come up with something that would both improve Wikipedia and be a learning experience for them. As mentioned it however can take some education before people are ready to edit. At least this will cause no harm and maybe they will come back latter and fix the article to match the review. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:13, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
- Two thoughts:
Thanks for inviting me to comment on this. It may sound strange what I'm going to say but I think any efforts, time or energy spent on the medical Wikipedia entries by medical professionals should be highly valued. We cannot expect this project to significantly improve the thousands of medical entries but we can expect many residents to 1) become interested in being a Wikipedian and 2) improve plenty of entries to some extent. I support it and let me know how I can facilitate the process. NCurse work 09:24, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks NCurse. I also have thought about this as a long-term project wherein these residents do something on Wikipedia now, then finish their residency after a few years and start practicing for a few years then when their lives are less hectic they remember their Wikipedia experience and come back. I am hoping that this project can start them off in a way that allows them to contribute some small but useful good and that they would be able to think about their experience and know that they are welcome to return for more if they like. I would like to stay in good communication with you and everyone else on WikiProject Medicine about this, so if you want to help facilitate this, then perhaps let's chat by phone or Skype and you could grill and quiz me to try to stomp out crazy impractical ideas I might have about this. More than anything else I want to support anyone who wants any part in this. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:54, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
- @Blue Rasberry: I'll closely follow this discussion and as soon as we have a consensus, I'm ready to talk with you about the details and how I can help. NCurse work 07:15, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
I have read WP:HARP and I watched the short video. The goal is reasonable. However I have a concern.
" They would be doing this in small groups in about 20 minutes with no prior Wikipedia editing experience and with no support from an experienced Wikipedian. "
— Blue Rasberry
I'm not convinced that someone with no prior experience with editing Wikipedia can actually write a constructive review in 20 minutes. They can certainly give their opinion on "what is missing", but I suspect that that may include primary source-based information, WP:NOTHOW, drug doses and perhaps even WP:CRYSTAL.
The people who edit medical articles are typically more experienced. Many are also healthcare professionals. For these editors, such a review will be useless. In the case of "casual" editors, some points may be relevant, but such editors are unlikely to read a review on the Talk page and act on it. Rather, these editors add in information that they believe is appropriate.
If the consensus is to proceed with the project, I recommend a pilot exercise, of perhaps a dozen reviewers/articles. We should then have a look at the reviews. Axl ¤ [Talk] 10:44, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
- I also am not convinced that someone can give a constructive review in 20 minutes, but since this project only targets medical residents, I think they are more likely to give a good review than other groups. I thought about a pilot also but it would be harder for me to organize a pilot than it would be to send this project out to the majority of medical residents in the country. The marketing of this project will be done by a leading creator of medical residency learning materials, and they proposed that they send something out in their curricula. This Wikipedia project could supplement any lesson - whatever the residents are studying, the instructor could say, "Now get into small groups and check what Wikipedia says about this." If I were to organize a pilot I would have to convince individual instructors to do something radical, whereas doing this nationwide means that we (I and my coworkers) only had to convince major medical societies that Wikipedia is where the public is getting information.
- I am concerned about potential danger, and that is why I directed everything to WP:HARP and am not proposing that instructors themselves know anything about the project. If instructors teach the project, then who knows what they might tell the students to do. Since the instructors only tell the residents to go to a website and follow instructions, if there is a problem then anyone can change the instructions they are following. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:54, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
I think the idea of newbies doing something harmless as their first edit is great. And getting them to think about an article and what was good/bad/missing is also useful. But 20 minutes is a tiny amount of time. Click on some of the "requested reviews" links on the project page. I think you will do well to properly, critically, read a short article in 10 minutes. And if you happen upon an GA/FA medical article, then your 20 minutes is very unlikely to do it any justice. If their time really is that limited, then the questions need to be much more focussed. And if you want them to become Wikipedians, then perhaps, rather than leaving a passive review to an anonymous supposed future editor, then it would be more useful to get them thinking about proposing a few changes they would like to make themselves. And what are these editors expected to do afterwards? Where is the support for them if they decide to fix the article in their own time? They face a big learning curve. Colin°Talk 12:23, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
- Will you or the reviewers be reporting their results in any formal way to Consumer Reports? Will this form the basis for a review of Wikipedia medical articles, or a comparison of Wikipedia articles with textbooks and other encyclopedias? I'd welcome that, assuming Consumer Reports is as independent and competent as their British and Australian equivalents, but I'd prefer the articles to be reviewed by subject experts if that's the intention here. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 13:11, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
- @Colin Unrelated to this project, I think the GA/FA review process is burdensome. I think more people would be willing to provide some review if they knew that they did not have to provide a total review. I think that more voices providing partial review on aspects of articles is preferable to fewer comprehensive reviews. More related to this project - a 20 minute review by a newcomer will not do justice to any article but I do not think it will hurt and I hope that it would provide some good. New editors do face a huge learning curve. Related to this project, I am working with various medical specialty societies to train their staff to become Wikipedians. Many societies have some mission to educate the public on some aspect of medicine - a disease, a body part, a condition, or whatever. These societies are feeling some pressure to participate more online, and I would like for them to begin to recognize that if they want to educate the public about health then they should check what is on Wikipedia and support development of the articles related to their field of expertise. I would like to think that in coming years, any society which has an educational mission to the public will support Wikipedia articles, and a great way for them to do that would be to support students and residents who edit Wikipedia articles within their field. Besides that long-term plan, I am doing what I can to improve all the processes related to training new editors. Some of the projects I support include the WP:TEAHOUSE, the Wikipedia:Wikipedia Loves Libraries program, and the campus ambassador program. I am interested in supporting new editors, especially highly educated and motivated new editors, and frankly there is not existing infrastructure to support them at this time. If we did this 20-minute program, and someone liked it, then there is no good system in place for them or anyone else to learn Wikipedia in a hurry. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:54, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
- @Anthonyhcole For this project articles would only be reviewed by people who just got their medical degrees in the United States. The kind of tracking that Consumer Reports is interested in is the response from the Wikipedia community (i.e. there should be few complaints and it would be nice if the project was helpful) and the response from the medical residents (the number of reviews will be counted, and informally we will ask whether students enjoyed doing this). There are no plans to have anyone actually critique the quality of the residents' reviews. We do have other plans to get other medical groups to participate in Wikipedia, and a lot of the strategies we are discussing are ways to encourage health educators to become Wikipedians and support other health educators in disseminating information from large, non-controversial health campaigns with broad consensus. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:54, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
- OK. Just to be perfectly clear, though. Consumer Reports seems to mostly be in the business of reviewing consumer products. Its Australian (Choice) and British (Which?) equivalents compare products in a class. The quality assessment generated by the reviewers isn't going to form part of such a quality comparison article in Consumer Reports is it? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:35, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- Consumer Reports (the name of both the magazine and the organization) also reviews and consolidates reviews of pharmaceuticals, healthcare procedures, and other information of use to consumers when they make healthcare decisions. The situation is that since Wikipedia is the world's most consulted source of health information and since Consumer Reports' mission is to provide as much information as possible of whatever sort that consumers want, then the organization is considering more interaction with Wikipedia as a way to fulfill its non-profit mission. The only plans made about reviewing these articles is to check whether residents like making them and whether the Wikipedia community likes receiving them. I am quite happy to talk more about this on this board or by phone and would love feedback on the project concept. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:22, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:59, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- Consumer Reports (the name of both the magazine and the organization) also reviews and consolidates reviews of pharmaceuticals, healthcare procedures, and other information of use to consumers when they make healthcare decisions. The situation is that since Wikipedia is the world's most consulted source of health information and since Consumer Reports' mission is to provide as much information as possible of whatever sort that consumers want, then the organization is considering more interaction with Wikipedia as a way to fulfill its non-profit mission. The only plans made about reviewing these articles is to check whether residents like making them and whether the Wikipedia community likes receiving them. I am quite happy to talk more about this on this board or by phone and would love feedback on the project concept. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:22, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- OK. Just to be perfectly clear, though. Consumer Reports seems to mostly be in the business of reviewing consumer products. Its Australian (Choice) and British (Which?) equivalents compare products in a class. The quality assessment generated by the reviewers isn't going to form part of such a quality comparison article in Consumer Reports is it? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:35, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- I like the idea of having them identify something that's missing. (Perhaps "confusing" could also be added to the list.) Twenty minutes is plenty enough time to discover, for example, that there's no ==Prognosis== section, and to leave a note saying that page 123 in My Textbook says the prognosis is _____. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:24, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, spotting something is missing is generally a very hard thing to do. That's why checklists were invented. Which comes back to my point that in 20 mins, the task has to be focused and possibly come with preparatory items to check, targeted at the type of article (because an infectious disease is different to an article on healthcare in the US). Colin°Talk 08:28, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
I like Colin's idea of having them "propose a few changes they would make themselves" and follow this by "a reference(s) which supports these changes" as WAID mentioned. I am sure we here can easily review their suggestions if we can get a list of pages they have worked on.
The proposal should be in a consistent format. Eg. "I propose we add text X to section Y of this article supported by reference Z (ISBN and page number, or PMID)" or "I propose we replace text A with text B in section Y of this article supported by reference Z (ISBN and page number, or PMID)". This should be doable in 20 min. They can concentrate on one section of an article rather than the whole thing and all they need to know is our referencing requirements. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:45, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
- Definitely think this is a good idea, and you did a much better job of putting into words what I was trying to say. Basically - rather than just pointing out problems - get them to offer a solution as well. This removes them from learning the intricacies of formatting and reference styles, and provides a filter to weed out primary sources before they hit an article if needed. Canada Hky (talk) 22:57, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
Variant proposals, with request for citation
Several people, including Canada Hky, Doc James, WhatamIdoing, and Colin, are suggesting that for the WP:HealthReview project students also add a reference. Here are two different proposals for incorporating this idea along with the original proposal for comparison - could I have comments on which one is preferable?
- (original proposal) Medical residents post a review of a health article and are not asked to provide any statement or citation.
- Medical residents post a review of a health article according to instructions which encourage them to also provide a statement with a citation.
- Medical residents post a review a health article only if they can provide a statement with a citation, and are discouraged from giving a review if they are unable to provide the statement and citation.
I agree that the project would be tremendously more useful if it made students actually propose an improvement through the addition of cited statements, but I feel that even providing a review without a reference would have some benefit to Wikipedia and some benefit to the medical residents who experience this as their first time participating in Wikipedia. It seems most likely that if this project were given to a large number of classes, then there would be some students who find a citation for their statement and some who do not. I would like for all residents who attempt to participate in this project to have high certainty that they can contribute something, and it is easier to get a review than a review and a citation.
How would everyone feel about strongly encouraging the students to propose a statement with a citation in their review, but still gratefully accepting reviews without citations? This would be variation 2 in the list above. Are there other possible variations of this? Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:47, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
- I would feel best with proposal 3. Without a reference, someone else has to chase the info down to 1) find out if it is correct and 2) appropriately source it. These are students, they might make mistakes, especially if it is something complex - if we can easily track down their source, they have probably still left us with something useful. Also, having given assignments with both required and optional portions - even when it is required, some people will leave it out. Make it optional and for no extra credit, and everyone will leave it out. Canada Hky (talk) 23:22, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, this project is for United States doctors in their first year after receiving their medical degrees, so grades and credit do not matter at this point and all stated options are optional, for no extra credit, and with no penalty for refusal. Blue Rasberry (talk) 23:56, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
- I understand that, but if we want them to do something useful - we should tell them the ideal way (besides them becoming full-time editors) for them to contribute. If they choose to do it - great, if they choose to do a little bit less - well, we still have something to work with. But, if we don't ask for it, we will almost certainly not get it. Canada Hky (talk) 00:34, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- Doc James did it first, but beyond his additions I updated the template which would prompt a user for input. It asks for a review, a fact to be inserted, and a reference. I fully support everyone being asked to provide a reference. I have some uncertainty about how this should go so I still want to hear from anyone who feels that it is best to turn editors away if they cannot provide a reference. Please provide other objections if you have them. What do you think of the prompts at this point? Could they be more forceful in asking for a reference? Blue Rasberry (talk) 01:13, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- I understand that, but if we want them to do something useful - we should tell them the ideal way (besides them becoming full-time editors) for them to contribute. If they choose to do it - great, if they choose to do a little bit less - well, we still have something to work with. But, if we don't ask for it, we will almost certainly not get it. Canada Hky (talk) 00:34, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, this project is for United States doctors in their first year after receiving their medical degrees, so grades and credit do not matter at this point and all stated options are optional, for no extra credit, and with no penalty for refusal. Blue Rasberry (talk) 23:56, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
- IMO #2 is good enough. For one thing, the problem might not actually be a "source" issue. Suggestions on how to replace jargon with plain English would be heklpful and not require a source. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:38, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- My experience with first year residents is that converting jargon to plain English is not their strong point. They are great at going the other way, though. Canada Hky (talk) 01:04, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with Canada my position is that #3 is best.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 07:37, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- I also think that it would be nice if they made suggestions about replacing text for clarity and that would not require a source, but I am starting to feel like even if option #2 is good enough then option #3 is better and still feasible. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:59, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- Just to note, I didn't suggest they supply a reference or new text. They can if they want to, but again I think the time limit makes this difficult. Also, I want to say that adding a quick review on a talk page is likely to be generally harmless, but we shouldn't think this can never hurt. It is quite possible that a cursory scan of an article, done in a hurry, could lead the reviewer into pointing out "missing" things that aren't really missing, or that don't actually have sufficient weight, or belong in another article. And worse, they could suggest including or changing the text in a way that really shifts the POV or weight. This could waste editors time arguing against such a review (only for them to be talking to thin air, as the reviewer has gone). Writing a good article is really hard, and in general our articles are so bad that it should be easy to fire shots at them. That might just discourage anyone who has worked on the article. Which is why I think it best if the reviewer does a "notes to self" kind of improvement list, and hopefully they become a Wikipedian and fix it. Colin°Talk 08:28, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- You raise good points about the potential problems from hurried review of an entire article, especially among a population which does not know Wikipedia culture. I do not want to discourage past article contributors and you are right, pointing out obvious problems is not too productive. Doc James said the same thing above. and I want everyone involved in this to have a good experience.
- I want to help develop a project with an immediate benefit, but long-term I hope that if doctors use Wikipedia for the first time, then become more aware that their patients use Wikipedia as a source of information. I hope that after they finish residency and then practice for a few years then they will think of returning to Wikipedia. No one becomes a Wikipedian suddenly and everyone starts with a first edit, and I hope that this project gets some first edits out of doctors.
- What do you mean a "notes to self" improvement list? Who should read such a list, where would it be posted, and what should be done with it? How would this be different from a review? I am very interested in hearing alternatives to the review process I proposed. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:27, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- My experience with first year residents is that converting jargon to plain English is not their strong point. They are great at going the other way, though. Canada Hky (talk) 01:04, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- The thing is, pointing out obvious problems can be very useful. Anyone who's been around much has had the experience of discovering age-old vandalism that wasn't noticed at the time. That's partly because so many active editors quit reading articles. We see a problem in a diff and go off to fix it, or we happen to notice the red warning about a busted ref tag when we are adding a category, or something like that, but we almost never sit down and actually read one sentence after another, from the top of the page to the bottom. A note on the talk page often alerts me to problems that I missed.
- Perhaps I'm not like the rest of you, but I'm not discouraged when someone adds a note saying "I think this article needs some information about ____". I might or might not act on it, but it never makes me feel underappreciated. In fact, it makes me think that someone actually is interested in the article enough to leave a note, which is generally a positive thing. Do any of you actually feel sad when a newbie adds a note about a concern on the talk page? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:10, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- This was my original thought in proposing the project because I expected that any kind of review or comments would be good both for the article and to teach people to make their first edits. I originally thought that it would not be possible for anyone to find and provide a reference in a short time on their first attempt to edit Wikipedia, and I am still not convinced, but if this project can actually work this way then that would be awesome. If anyone can do this then medical residents can do this, and if it works a little then I think I can arrange support to make it work better.
- What you are proposing seems valuable also. Some people have said that since so many of the health articles are bad, that most of the comments will be just pointing out that the articles are missing things which anyone can see ought to be there. If it happened that people were able to read well-trafficked articles which have not had review in a while, that sounds useful also.
- Hmm... I am not sure what is best. Blue Rasberry (talk) 18:58, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
If a reference is required
Is there anyone who would be unhappy if this project required a reference?
Suppose that we went with option 3 to require a reference within a contribution. How forceful should the language be in WP:HARP? Right now, the project asks students to post a template onto the talk page of an article and the template asks for a statement and a reference. Here are some options for handling this:
- The template asks for a reference but does not say it is required. It may be awkward to leave that blank since that is one of only three prompts, but students are not dissuaded from doing so.
- There could be a notice or bolded text somewhere emphasizing that a reference is required.
- There could be text which says for someone to not make a post or participate if they cannot provide a reference.
- The first step of the tutorial, even before telling them to register an account, could be to find a reference to cite.
- The template could, instead of asking for a statement then a reference, ask for a reference first then a statement
- The page could prompt the students with a link to PubMed or some other sources so that they can easily find a reference
Thoughts on these? Should any of these be included or excluded from the instructions students read?
Unrelated to this project, Canada Hky has a proposal to create the opposite of Simple English Wikipedia, Jargon Wikipedia. We could recruit medical residents to convert normal Wikipedia articles into doctorspeak. Thoughts? Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:55, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
IP adding a bunch of primary research much not even mentioning CT. And now edit warring to put it back in place. Comments appreciated. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:51, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
More eyes on article appreciated, a new editor adding unsourced and dubiously sourced information to article. Yobol (talk) 20:48, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
- Warned at his talkpage for COI.LeadSongDog come howl! 06:29, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
Confusing redirect?
Muscle stiffness (shome mishtake, shurely? ed) —MistyMorn (talk) 10:27, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
Alkaline ionized water looks like pseudoscientific crap to me. Any second opinions? Peacock (talk) 20:23, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- ... and also the related new article Alkaline water ionizer machine. Peacock (talk) 20:25, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- I have redirected both to Water ionizer. Yobol (talk) 20:32, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- That looks like the right thing to do to me. Thank you. Peacock (talk) 20:51, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
- I have redirected both to Water ionizer. Yobol (talk) 20:32, 12 June 2012 (UTC)