Chewings72 (talk | contribs) m Reverted edits by 2402:3A80:1123:3BA0:59FD:4E63:6532:5E5C (talk) to last version by Bestagon Tag: Rollback |
TrangaBellam (talk | contribs) →Bose and leftism: new section Tag: 2017 wikitext editor |
||
Line 133: | Line 133: | ||
:Not sure what you mean, the article seems quite comprehensive. Can you link to the part where you see this? [[User:Britmax|Britmax]] ([[User talk:Britmax|talk]]) 17:13, 17 February 2021 (UTC) |
:Not sure what you mean, the article seems quite comprehensive. Can you link to the part where you see this? [[User:Britmax|Britmax]] ([[User talk:Britmax|talk]]) 17:13, 17 February 2021 (UTC) |
||
:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' please provide [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User talk:Bestagon|Bestagon]] ⬡ 18:36, 17 February 2021 (UTC) |
:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' please provide [[Wikipedia:Reliable sources|reliable sources]] that support the change you want to be made.<!-- Template:ESp --> [[User talk:Bestagon|Bestagon]] ⬡ 18:36, 17 February 2021 (UTC) |
||
== Bose and leftism == |
|||
Hayes need to be used a lot more. Why are we using primary sources. [[User:TrangaBellam|TrangaBellam]] ([[User talk:TrangaBellam|talk]]) 16:09, 27 February 2021 (UTC) |
Revision as of 16:09, 27 February 2021
This article is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Death of Subhash Chandra Bose
As his death is not confirmed by any solid source,I think we should not assume 18th August 1945 as his death day. Cause it's a very controversial issue. Souvikdind (talk) 14:03, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- No, several inquiries have concluded that he did die on 18 August 1945. Those are reliably sourced as well as being widely accepted. Just because there are theories and beliefs among some people that he did not die in 1945 is not reason to omit the information altogether. Nthep (talk) 14:35, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry, Wikipedia is beholden only to the reliable sources. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:56, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
- Fowler&fowler Nthep, but nothing is proven till now. there are many theories but nothing has been proved, so how can we mention the death date? the references used here are mostly from the 2000s. latest investigations and studies show different things. we cant stick to any old and unproven theory just because its widely accepted. there are multiple reliable sources for this.
- indiatoday 1
- indiatoday 2
- thewire
- timesofindia
- scroll
- zeenews and many more... ❯❯❯ S A H A 06:50, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- Latest things do not show any difference. The 2015 face mapping reports are just that, another opinion. To quote the Times of India article "Serious consideration must be given to the contention that the Tashkent Man (TM) and Subhas Chandra Bose (SCB) share very similar facial features and could potentially be one and the same person" [1] (my emphasis). Not solid proof but another theory that may deserve mention in Death of Subhas Chandra Bose if it's not already there, but the basic premise still remains, numerous inquiries have overt the years come to the official conclusion that 18 August 1945 is the date of death. If the GOI held another inquiry and concluded that Bose died somewhere else or on a different date Wikipedia would take notice of that but grasping at straws isn't good enough reason to change the content. Nthep (talk) 13:23, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
- Fowler&fowler Nthep, but nothing is proven till now. there are many theories but nothing has been proved, so how can we mention the death date? the references used here are mostly from the 2000s. latest investigations and studies show different things. we cant stick to any old and unproven theory just because its widely accepted. there are multiple reliable sources for this.
- Sorry, Wikipedia is beholden only to the reliable sources. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:56, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
Death of the great Netaji should not be in the article..It is till not confirmed and most of the Indians do believe that subhasji did not die at that plane crash. Either Indians or Tokyo confirmed the plane crash..so to indicate death date of Netaji is to provide wrong information and to play with the emotions of Indians IamKrg (talk) 16:41, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
wikipedia better take out the death date and put it as controversial Ekpalka (talk) 21:29, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
You should change the date of death. Because NETAJI'S death of date is unknown.So change it Crøcrøz (talk) 19:49, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
- Read the above. Nthep (talk) 20:56, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
Issue with lede
Simply put, the lede section is absurdly detailed and should be reduced. Unschool 03:51, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
- Agreed, the lead (see MOS:LEAD ¶ 1) is too long, but the article is politically highly sensitive. Feel free to attempt to précis it, but expect significant resistance. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 10:02, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
- Please be aware that in a large number of South Asia related articles which have been embroiled in edit warring, or otherwise in various forms of POV promotion, the lead is created as an NPOV template (with sources), with the expectation that if and when the rest of the article has attained an NPOV and reliable state, it can be summarized to rewrite the lead or to add nuances as needed. This has been the precedent followed in dozens of articles starting with the flagship article, the FA India, the oldest country FA on Wikipedia (when it had degenerated in 2006–7) and down to the much more recent 2020 Delhi riots. They are the result of longstanding and hard-won consensus on article talk pages and WT:INDIA, and supported by dozens of administrators going back to Nichalp, arb and admin, who led the drive for more South-Asia-related content on Wikipedia. MOS has been brought up before in dozens of such articles. The precedent has held. Whatever changes are being proposed, need to be discussed in the talk page and a consensus achieved. I'm on vacation, so this is all I can do until early October. I will be logging in once a week, but please do not edit the lead directly. Again, please note that it is the rest of the article that needs to be rewritten in an NPOV manner using the sources in the lead. Only then can the lead be a precis of the article. Note also that this is one of the most ideologically problematic topics in modern Indian history. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:01, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Unschool: If you are looking to rewrite a lead, please do so for Death of Subhas Chandra Bose, an article I had written a long time ago (in an NPOV and reliable fashion if I may say so myself), but kept the lead very brief for reasons I won't go into now. Anyhow, the lead there bears expansion, and I would be grateful if you @Martin of Sheffield: and @RegentsPark: could do it. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:13, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
- Please be aware that in a large number of South Asia related articles which have been embroiled in edit warring, or otherwise in various forms of POV promotion, the lead is created as an NPOV template (with sources), with the expectation that if and when the rest of the article has attained an NPOV and reliable state, it can be summarized to rewrite the lead or to add nuances as needed. This has been the precedent followed in dozens of articles starting with the flagship article, the FA India, the oldest country FA on Wikipedia (when it had degenerated in 2006–7) and down to the much more recent 2020 Delhi riots. They are the result of longstanding and hard-won consensus on article talk pages and WT:INDIA, and supported by dozens of administrators going back to Nichalp, arb and admin, who led the drive for more South-Asia-related content on Wikipedia. MOS has been brought up before in dozens of such articles. The precedent has held. Whatever changes are being proposed, need to be discussed in the talk page and a consensus achieved. I'm on vacation, so this is all I can do until early October. I will be logging in once a week, but please do not edit the lead directly. Again, please note that it is the rest of the article that needs to be rewritten in an NPOV manner using the sources in the lead. Only then can the lead be a precis of the article. Note also that this is one of the most ideologically problematic topics in modern Indian history. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:01, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
Subtitles as Indian radical is wrong
Please change Subtitle of subhash chandra bose to indian nationalist instead of radical - radical is not a correct word to mention with great subhash chandra bose Abhijeetraj9 (talk) 16:06, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
- Where does it say he was an Indian radical? The lead clearly uses the word "nationalist". --RegentsPark (comment) 16:19, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
- Further to RegentsPark the word "radical" appears only once in the whole article. See the second paragraph of the lead: 'Bose had been a leader of the younger "radical wing" of the Indian National Congress in the late 1920s and 1930s'. Try using the search function on your browser. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 16:23, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
- I did see that but all that says is he as the leader of the radical wing. That's not the same thing as being labeled (or subtitled) a radical. --RegentsPark (comment) 16:32, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
- @RegentsPark: – the comment about using the search function was aimed at Abhijeetraj9, not you. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 19:23, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
- I did see that but all that says is he as the leader of the radical wing. That's not the same thing as being labeled (or subtitled) a radical. --RegentsPark (comment) 16:32, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
- Further to RegentsPark the word "radical" appears only once in the whole article. See the second paragraph of the lead: 'Bose had been a leader of the younger "radical wing" of the Indian National Congress in the late 1920s and 1930s'. Try using the search function on your browser. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 16:23, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
A google search for Netaji Subash Chandra Bose will bring up his info on the right hand side, where it clearly has the short description of "Indian Radical". As this information is simply pulled from wikipedia, that means the short description (or something similar) must have "Indian Radical". On what basis is "Indian Radical" an appropriate short description? What is the definition of "Radical"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7F:E054:5100:493A:66B:4652:C4B9 (talk) 18:03, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
- The only mention of radical is the one quoted by Martin of Sheffield above (the short description says "20th-century Indian nationalist leader and politician"). You're right about the google search though. Not sure where they get that from.--RegentsPark (comment) 18:09, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
- That's odd, I put both "Subhas Chandra Bose" and "Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose" into Google and the side box for both searches said "Subhas Chandra Bose was an Indian nationalist whose defiant patriotism made him a hero in India, but whose attempt during World War II to rid India of British rule with the help of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan left a troubled legacy." No mention of the word "radical" at all. Even if the term did appear in Google, you must remember that Google does what it likes and builds these side boxes from multiple sources. Talk to Google (aka "bang you head against a brick wall") not us! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 19:20, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
- Interesting. When I checked in the morning, it said Indian Radical under his name. Now it doesn't. Is someone watching this page :) --RegentsPark (comment) 21:15, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
- I noticed that some editor changed "younger, radical, wing" to "younger, 'radical wing' " which is an incorrect edit, as the source Burton Stein does not say that. The poster has a point in that the word "radical" is kind of vague. Let me look at Stein again propose something more precise about Bose's (and Nehru's) ideological position in the Congress. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:20, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
- Interesting. When I checked in the morning, it said Indian Radical under his name. Now it doesn't. Is someone watching this page :) --RegentsPark (comment) 21:15, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
- That's odd, I put both "Subhas Chandra Bose" and "Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose" into Google and the side box for both searches said "Subhas Chandra Bose was an Indian nationalist whose defiant patriotism made him a hero in India, but whose attempt during World War II to rid India of British rule with the help of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan left a troubled legacy." No mention of the word "radical" at all. Even if the term did appear in Google, you must remember that Google does what it likes and builds these side boxes from multiple sources. Talk to Google (aka "bang you head against a brick wall") not us! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 19:20, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
My proposed, more precise, edit is here. The quotes in the citation has been expanded a bit. Please let me know what you think. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:57, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
- As no one has objected to my proposed version, which had made the word "radical" more precise, in six weeks (sorry in my edit summary I mistakenly stated two months), I have now added that to the lead. I would like to thank @Abhijeetraj9: for making a perceptive point. I apologize for forgetting all about this discussion. I believe the new version is historically accurate, supported by the best scholarly sources on modern Indian history. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:10, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 27 December 2020
Hi, I would like to request editing permission for the article titled Subhas Chandra Bose. This is because the date of his death is incorrect, in fact it has been proven many times that he has not died in a plane crash on 1945. What really happened was he faked his own death and traveled to Russia where he stayed for a long time. He then traveled to India, transformed into a monk and lived under the alias Gumnaami Baba. Many people that wrote letters referred to him as Netaji, which meant he really didn't die in 1945. Despite extensive research on the behalf of Mission: Netaji, the government failed to acknowledge, that he survived the plane crash in 1945. He really died under the alias Gumnaami Baba in 1985 at the age of 88. Many more evidences are found if you research about the Mukherjee Committee, its hearings, and also Mission Netaji. You will find out much more, but this is all I am going to say. All information I just told you was found after watching the movie about a true story, "Gumnaami". I hope I get the rights to edit this document, and change the date of his death, and show people, that he lived for much longer.
From a 12 year old (That is all true by the way.) 2600:1702:1210:5020:20C8:6BA:5314:807C (talk) 03:53, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
- Hello dear, first of all anyone can edit wikipedia. You don't need to seek any special permission from anyone. In case of this page, it is semi-protected to prevent persistent distruptive editing, so you can't edit this page unless you create your own account on wikipedia and become an autoconfirmed and confirmed user. Secondly, wikipedia is not a reliable source, so be always bold to correct any information. But it has to be in a systematic way, you must cite a reliable source in support of your information. I myself has heard many anecdotes about what you're saying, but a film which is a work of fiction can't be a reliable source. To avoid any undue weight, we prefer to use information(s) which are largely available from reliable sources. I hope this helps.
- Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. -ink&fables «talk» 04:53, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
Merged Parakram Diwas to here
ChandlerMinh, the reader is better served by reading this as a section of the Biography article. Not enough content for a standalone article. New article can be forked later on see WP:CFORK --Walrus Ji (talk) 07:12, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
- Very good point @Walrus Ji:. Thanks. PS I've moved that paragraph to the end of the section, making the narrative chronological. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:11, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
- @Wikifullness: It is already linked in the article by virtue of your own edit. See here. We cannot also have it in "See Also" by Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Layout#NOTSEEALSO I have reverted your edit. How have you created a standalone article, when the consensus here seems against it? Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:12, 26 January 2021 (UTC) @Wikifulness: Repinging Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:14, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
Quote on Hindu Mahasabha from Bose's book The Indian Struggle
- The Hindu Mahasabha, like its Moslem counterpart (All-India Muslim League), consisted not only of erstwhile Nationalists, but also of a large number of men who were afraid of participating in a political movement and wanted a safer platform for themselves. The growth of sectarian movements among both Hindus and Moslems accentuated intercommunal tension. The opportunity was availed of by interested third parties who wanted to see the two communities fight, so that the Nationalist forces could be weakened..
- Subhas Chandra Bose in his book The Indian Struggle[1]
References
- ^ Daniyal, Shoaib (23 October 2018). Subhas Chandra Bose saw himself as a secular leftist. Why is the BJP trying to appropriate him?. Retrieved 23 January 2021.
Fowler&fowler, this quote is not made up by Daniyal but written by Bose in his book. Can this be restored back. It gives the reader an idea of what bose thought about them. Walrus Ji (talk) 12:20, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for your post @Walrus Ji: No, I don't think it is a good idea. Yes, it is Bose, but still quoted in Daniyal in the course of his analysis, serving some purpose for his conclusions. In any case, it is Bose's rationalization in his autobiography, which we cannot take at face value. In reality, Bose did communicate much with both Hindu nationalists and Fascists during the 1930s and early 1940s, agreeing, for example, on some aspects of strategy with Savarkar, but disagreeing on the questions of Muslims. Marzia Casolari has elaborated on this in her new book, In the Shadow of the Swastika: The Relationships Between Indian Radical Nationalism, Italian Fascism, and Nazism, Routledge, 2020. When I find some time, I will add something, but run it by you beforehand for input.
Thanks, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:09, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
- After mulling this over properly, @Walrus Ji: I've reinstated your edits. Apologies. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:05, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
Notes+refs in the lead
I see there is active work on this article, so if this is something that someone was already planning to address, I apologize. I find the notes in the lead extremely confusing and distracting—why do we need a note with a ref and the same ref again? I would think that when this is the case, the notes alone would suffice. Anyways, kudos for tackling a controversial figure. Best - Aza24 (talk) 07:18, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks @Aza24: The double references had been removed, but someone put them back. They will be fixed in the revision. Best, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:35, 24 January 2021 (UTC)
SCB pronouncing his own name?
Does anyone know of a video or audio in which SCB pronounces his own name in the manner that Kamala Harris does (see lead sentence there)? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:16, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
- Found it! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:19, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
- Taking the Kamala Harris page as a cue, I've added the pronunciation of Bose's full name; the audio has his name in his own voice from a radio broadcast on June 26, 1943, from Tokyo, Japan. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:51, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
The 125th birth anniversary? How so?
For a country that gave the world elementary arithmetic, how does one account for numerous reports out of India describing 23 January 2021 to be Bose's 125th birth anniversary? Please enlighten? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:52, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 17 February 2021
The description of Subhas Chandra Bose is given as Indian Author, which is ignorant towards his immense contributions in Indian Freedom struggle. Cydenar (talk) 16:05, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- Not sure what you mean, the article seems quite comprehensive. Can you link to the part where you see this? Britmax (talk) 17:13, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Bestagon ⬡ 18:36, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Bose and leftism
Hayes need to be used a lot more. Why are we using primary sources. TrangaBellam (talk) 16:09, 27 February 2021 (UTC)