Edit request |
→Edit request: add category: removed protection from the article - it's been protected far too long |
||
Line 320: | Line 320: | ||
==Edit request: add category== |
==Edit request: add category== |
||
{{editprotected}} |
{{tl|editprotected}} |
||
Could an administrator please add this article to the category {{cl|Lists of flags of the United Kingdom}} as the main article (i.e. <nowiki>[[Category:Lists of flags of the United Kingdom| ]]</nowiki>)? Thanks. [[User:Bastin8/Signature|Bastin]] 20:35, 10 June 2007 (UTC) |
Could an administrator please add this article to the category {{cl|Lists of flags of the United Kingdom}} as the main article (i.e. <nowiki>[[Category:Lists of flags of the United Kingdom| ]]</nowiki>)? Thanks. [[User:Bastin8/Signature|Bastin]] 20:35, 10 June 2007 (UTC) |
||
:I've removed protection from the article - it's been protected far too long. Thanks/[[User:Wangi|wangi]] 20:47, 10 June 2007 (UTC) |
Revision as of 20:47, 10 June 2007
Heraldry and vexillology NA‑class | ||||||||||
|
Regional Flags
Would it be a good idea to divide these between 'historical' and modern inventions? Its just the confusion that things like the BBC created flag of devon cause when put next to some of the rather interesting old flags. (BM) 86.136.230.235
Proposal to merge into the main Union Jack article
Union Jack is located here: Talk:Union Jack#Merge "List of British flags" into "Union Jack".--Mais oui! 20:10, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Edits of 22:54-55, 15 February 2006
Anyone confused with the edit summary should know that the edit of 22:54 was not a self reversion as it says in the log; I mistook this page for another. Greentubing 09:57, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
dates of flags
does c900 mean the 9th centuary or the 900s — Preceding unsigned comment added by Euano (talk • contribs) 16:00, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
- it means "around the year 900" Astrotrain 08:55, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Cross of St. George in Scotland
Should the Cross of St. George (English Flag) be freely flown from any building in Scotland? For the purposes of this discussion it will be assumed that no other flag will be flown with it and the building in question is a public house and the flag shares the wall it is mounted on (without a flag pole) with advertisements for makes of beer.
I think it would be an insult to every Scotsman/woman as well as an insult to the people of England. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.163.69.228 (talk • contribs) 09:40, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Why should it not be? IKEA in Glasgow flies the Sweddish flag for example. And the Scottish National Party in Stornoway flew the English flag on St George's Day. Astrotrain 11:36, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
I refuse to believe that Stornaway flew the St. Georges Cross on it's own without the Union Jack or Saltire being present with it. It is also true to say that St. Georges Day is one of Twenty Three days in the year when it is allowed to fly the Flag of St. George from Government buildings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.163.69.228 (talk • contribs) 09:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
- See [1] for pictures, the Saltire does fly alongside though. The Union Flag flies on government buildings on St Georges Day, and the English flag- and only in England. See Flag of the United Kingdom for all flag days. Astrotrain 10:21, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
As a Briton living in England (I consider myself British first and foremost) I would not be at all bothered to see a Scottish saltire flying from any building in England. As for the flying of the cross of St. George being an "insult" to the Scots, the overly-sensitive attitude of some Scots towards the flying of English flags in Scotland often appears petty.
There is no legal or traditional impediment against flying a British flag (that is to say a flag from or of the island of Britain) anywhere else in Great Britain. Indeed, there is a hotel on Holy Island in Northumbria that flies the flag of Yorkshire!
A regional flag
It's totally unofficial but I've just uploaded the flag of Buckinghamshire in .png format to use in my own signature. It's not particularly well produced (there's a line down the middle for example) but if anyone feels the need and uploads a better version in .svg format please let me know. -- Francs2000 File:Flag of Buckinghamshire.png 16:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
British Flag?
Is there a flag for Britain any more? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.164.3.90 (talk • contribs) 17:20, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Flag of the East India Company
==Towards the bottom of the page, the flag of the East India Company is erroneously shown with a St. George's cross in the canton. Since 1707, the Union Flag has been in the canton of this flag.
Ensign of the Commissioners of the Northern Lights
Is that the correct title? Their website refers to The Commissioners of Northern Lighthouses. --jmb 09:20, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Broken images
Why do so many of these images show up as broken red links? --Masamage 20:05, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Saint Patrick's Flag in series?
Template:UKFlags makes up a series of articles with this as the main topic. Should Saint Patrick's Flag be added to that series? --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 03:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- Please continue this discussion at Talk:Saint Patrick's Flag
St Patrick's Flag
I'm in favour of keeping St Patrick's Flag in the article, as it's a key component of the Union Flag - basically Northern Ireland's bit. Ireland may no longer be part of the UK, but note that this article is flags of "the United Kingdom and related territories. [emphasis mine]". For the time period clearly stated in the table, Ireland was most certainly a related territory. Indeed, many of the flags of the overseas territories and crown dependancies are no longer - or never were - part of the UK, and should hence be removed under such a strict definition of 'British'. --Scott Wilson 18:21, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
- It's not a national flag- moved to historical section. Astrotrain 18:26, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Defaced?
In all fairness to those from Ireland isn't it rather rude to say that the flag was "Defaced" with the Irish harp?
- No, because that is the correct term for placing a badge or other device over a pre-existing flag design. Another example would be the Australian flag - that is a Blue ensign defaced with a southern cross design. In the context of flags, 'defaced' is not a derogatory term. Martocticvs 18:52, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
BBC
One flag that I can't find anywhere, with a GOOGLE search etc, is the old BBC flag. Modern one is just "BBC" on the flag but I think it was blue with a circle and globe perhaps but a long time since I saw it flying. I will check some more books later but thought it could be a useful one to add to various institutions. --jmb 01:22, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Mercia
The Symbols, Standards, Flags and Banners of Ancient and Modern Nations By George Henry Preble refers to the "golden dragon, standard of Wessex" [2] --jmb 11:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- Also The History and Antiquities of Boston: and the villages of Skirbeck,Fishtoft, Freiston,... By Pishey Thompson
- "The banner displayed by Ethelbald .... was a golden dragon which became adopted as the flag of Mercia" [3] --jmb 11:54, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry first reference was Wessex. Was Mercia ruled by Wessex for a time and used their flag during that period? --jmb 12:28, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Contributor TharkunColl is clearly determined to foist an invented Mercian flag of some sort upon Wikipedia for some obscure reason of his own. His own Talk page indicates he is relentless in pursuing POV with numerous warnings about his conduct, and other users have tried and failed to get rid of this imaginary flag. I'm afraid I have other things to do than pursue revert wars. However, for the record (as Wikipedia is a fact-based online encyclopedia, and it would be on my conscience if anybody was misled by TharkunColl's contribution), there is no evidence from any of the surviving Anglo-Saxon literature or archaeological discoveries of a Mercian flag comprising a white or golden dragon, and none of the standard academic publications or websites on Mercia or vexillology refer to any such flag.
The Ulster Banner is currently used in this article to represent the Flag of Northern Ireland, however, this was the flag which represent the former government of Northern Ireland which ended in the 1970's and is no longer the official flag of Northern Ireland. Should we keep the flag regardless, replace it with another flag or leave it blank until another is introduced? regards--Vintagekits 16:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- It is regarded as the de-facto flag in the absence of anything offical- it is noted as unoffical here. It is used by the Irish Football Association, UEFA, the Commonwealth Games etc. Just because the Government of Northern Ireland was abolished in the 1970s did not mean that the flag went out of use- it is clearly used by various bodies as the de-facto flag of Northern Ireland. Astrotrain 17:24, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- The flag is called the Ulster Banner, not the Flag of Northern Ireland, so it is being misrepresented in this article.--Vintagekits 17:32, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- The flag is called "the Flag of Northern Ireland" or "the Northern Ireland flag" or "the Northern Irish flag". So it was not being "misrepresented" in the article before political POV got to it. -- Mal 16:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- The de-facto flag of Northern Ireland is the Union Flag, not the Ulster Banner. The Ulster banner may be used by other non-government organisations in various capacities, but it is not an officially sanctioned flag any longer, and technically should go in the historic flags section. Martocticvs 18:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Partially correct - the Union Flag is the de facto national flag and the "Ulster Banner" is the de facto regional flag. Jonto 19:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
- Good point Martocticvs, I support it being point in the historical flags section and being replaced with the flag of the NI Assembly if/when it gets up and running.--Vintagekits 18:53, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- It is not a historical flag- you keep ignoring the fact it is currently used as the defacto flag of Northern Ireland by the various sport bodies. The Assembly doesn't even have a flag- and if it did- it would not be a national flag. Astrotrain 20:20, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- It is not recognised or sanctioned as the flag of Northern Ireland by the government of the United Kingdom, and has not been since the 70s - therefore it is an historical flag, regardless of its status with various sporting bodies. Flags of sports organisations do not constitute national flags in the absence of any officially declared flag, regardless of how the flag may have been used in the past. The fact remains that the flag directed to be used on government buildings in Northern Ireland is at all times the Union Flag. To list the Ulster Banner as being NI's national flag because of the aforementioned sporting affiliations is entirely unencyclopædic. Martocticvs 20:45, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- The National sporting bodies use the national flag- the unoffical Flag of Northern Ireland. Clearly this is the flag being used at national sporting events. Witness the proud athletes of Northern Ireland marching behind thier flag at Melbourne in 2006. The UK government has not decided anything on this issue- except that theSecretary of State for NI issued some regulations governing a handful of buildings under his control- if that is what you are referring to. Astrotrain 21:17, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- It is not recognised or sanctioned as the flag of Northern Ireland by the government of the United Kingdom, and has not been since the 70s - therefore it is an historical flag, regardless of its status with various sporting bodies. Flags of sports organisations do not constitute national flags in the absence of any officially declared flag, regardless of how the flag may have been used in the past. The fact remains that the flag directed to be used on government buildings in Northern Ireland is at all times the Union Flag. To list the Ulster Banner as being NI's national flag because of the aforementioned sporting affiliations is entirely unencyclopædic. Martocticvs 20:45, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- It is not a historical flag- you keep ignoring the fact it is currently used as the defacto flag of Northern Ireland by the various sport bodies. The Assembly doesn't even have a flag- and if it did- it would not be a national flag. Astrotrain 20:20, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- Actually the IFA dont use it. But that is immaterial - its a historic flags so should be moved to the historical section and replaced.--Vintagekits 22:04, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- It is clearly not historical if it is still being used for offical events. I would advise you not to let your own POV infulence your editing. Astrotrain 10:38, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
- The de-facto flag of Northern Ireland is the Union Flag, not the Ulster Banner. The Ulster banner may be used by other non-government organisations in various capacities, but it is not an officially sanctioned flag any longer, and technically should go in the historic flags section. Martocticvs 18:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
- It hasn't been the official flag since the 1970's. It is not used by the government in Northern Ireland nor is it used by the suspend assembly nor will be used by the new assembly that is forthcoming. Therefore it is a historic flag as you have been informed by a number of editors. The consensus thus far is to remove it to the historic section and as Logoistic suggested leave an additional note diverting to the Northern Ireland flag issue page. Stop edit warring and leave it at the consensus position.--Vintagekits 11:18, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
- The Assembly doesn't have a flag. The Flag is clearly used in an offical capacity by various international bodies as the defacto flag of Northern Ireland. If people are offended by the flag then tough- Wikipedia is not censored. Many reputable flag sites will list this as the Unoffical Flag of Northern Ireland- there is no reputable source that would agree it is an historical flag. Astrotrain 12:09, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
- It is used in the commonwealth games - its is not been used since the 1970's in any legal, official or governmental capacity - therefore it is historic and no matter how much POV pushing can change that.--Vintagekits 12:47, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
- It is not historic if you are admitting it is still used, is it? It is de facto. I will post no further comment here as this issue is getting rather long in the tooth. Jonto 19:59, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
- It is used in the commonwealth games - its is not been used since the 1970's in any legal, official or governmental capacity - therefore it is historic and no matter how much POV pushing can change that.--Vintagekits 12:47, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
- The Assembly doesn't have a flag. The Flag is clearly used in an offical capacity by various international bodies as the defacto flag of Northern Ireland. If people are offended by the flag then tough- Wikipedia is not censored. Many reputable flag sites will list this as the Unoffical Flag of Northern Ireland- there is no reputable source that would agree it is an historical flag. Astrotrain 12:09, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
- This page is about flags offical use. A lot of flags that are historic are "still used" - but they are still historic flags!--Vintagekits 20:08, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with Vintagekits, the Ulster Banner is a Historical flag, this flag was only used between 1953-72 as an offical flag of the government of Northern Ireland, it has not been officaly used since then. The use of the UB as a symbol by sporting bodies dosent give the flag any offical status even as a de facto flag, to suggest otherwise is POV. --padraig3uk 01:30, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- Current use (as demonstrated by reliable sources) means it cannot be historical (going by the usual defintion of that word). A neutral point of view points out it is unoffical, it is the flag of the former government, is used by unionists, is used by sporting bodies. Astrotrain 11:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- Flags.net is not a reliable source - it is a shop and infact as witnessed by a number of editors during this discussion the decription of the Ulster Banner on that site has recently changed. As with other flags its official use has has ended and it is therefore an historic flag.--Vintagekits 11:51, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Astrotrain, flags.net has this to say about the Ulster Banner: Northern Ireland (unofficial) [3:5] This flag is a banner of the arms of the old Government of Northern Ireland. The flag ceased to be official in 1973, but continues to be used by Unionists. On no account should it be used for official purposes. That clearly supports the arguement that the flag is not offical and should not be used. Why do you keep pointing out its use by some sports bodies, the use by them of any flag or symbol has no bearing on the status of the flag. A NPOV is not protraying the flag as something its not, it should be moved to the Historical flags section.--padraig3uk 12:18, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- The text in the box is correctly referenced to flags.net which states it is the former government flag and is still used today. The references to the international sporting bodies shows the flag is still being used as the Flag of Northern Ireland (unoffical). It is essential for NPOV that you do not remove valid references to reputable sources. Astrotrain 13:04, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- I think you maybe be missing the point, some sporting bodies use it as the Unofficial Flag of Northern Ireland but that does not make it the especially as others organisations and bodies that represent NI dont not use it as the unofficial flag, just because FIFA and the Commonwealth Games committee use it doesnt mean it is. The current description of the flag in accurate and NPOV and draws attention to the wider issue which is fully discussed on the other page. Secondly flags.net is not a reliable source. regards--Vintagekits 13:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- Astrotrain, Flags.net is a commercial site that sells flags, and even at that it states but continues to be used by Unionists you are aware that Unionists and Loyalist parlaimilitaries use the flag to try to intimidate the nationalist community. The Link provided by Vintagekits to the Flag of Northern Ireland covers the dispute and useage of the flag in detail in a NPOV manner.--padraig3uk 13:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- Graham Bartram runs the World Flag Database. He is a highly respected vexillologist and is currently Secretary-General for Congresses of FIAV (Fédération internationale des associations vexillologiques). He is also the Chief Vexillologist of the Flag Institute. Your point about intimidation is irrelevant as Wikipedia is not censored. Removal of referenced material to reliable sources is not allowed. Astrotrain 16:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- Removal of referenced sources would normaly not be allowed, but in this case Vintagekits replaced it to a wiki article that explains the issue of the Northern Ireland flag in more detail, giving both sides of the dispute and also provides referenced sources, so this is not a issue.--padraig3uk 16:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- Then we should just say Flag of Northern Ireland (unoffical) then and restore the reference. You can't just state the former usage part without stating the current usage. Astrotrain 16:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- The is no Flag of Northern Ireland - there is an article which explains that, that is why I put the link to that in the text! Flags.net does not superceed British Law!--Vintagekits 16:46, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- Then we should just say Flag of Northern Ireland (unoffical) then and restore the reference. You can't just state the former usage part without stating the current usage. Astrotrain 16:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- This is an article on OFFICAL FLAGS, the Ulster Banner dosen't come into that category as a National Flag, so reference to its current use by a sports organisation, or extreme Loyalist or Unionist groups is not necessary, all that info is dealt with in the link proved by Vintagekits.--padraig3uk 16:46, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- It is an article on flags offical and unoffical. And we have a reliable source to back up (the World Flag Database, as well as references to FIFA, UEFA and CGF. Astrotrain 16:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- Where in the CG or FIFA page does it state that this is the flag of NI? do you think that Flags.net superceeds British Law on flags? By constantly reverting against consensus you are creating an edit war, please stop.--Vintagekits 16:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- It is an article on flags offical and unoffical. And we have a reliable source to back up (the World Flag Database, as well as references to FIFA, UEFA and CGF. Astrotrain 16:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
The Ulster Banner is not an National Flag, stop trying to promote this flag has something it is not since 1972.--padraig3uk 17:24, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- I am not promoting it- I am using valid and reliable references. Astrotrain 17:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- Your using reference to a commercial that states it is not a offical flag and should not be used as such. Here is a reference to another site have you checked this one out [5].--padraig3uk 17:38, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- No one is saying it is an offical flag- it is an unoffical flag still widely used. The site you reference also backs this up. Astrotrain 17:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- Its use by sporting organisations dosent count.--padraig3uk
- It is not the unofficial flag it is the flag that is unofficially used to represent NI by CG and FIFA - that does not make it the unofficial flag - also it is not used by the IFA which is the FIFA and UEFA soccer body in NI and additionally it is banned from government buildings. To show it in the fashion that you have proposed in misrepresenting its status. regards--Vintagekits 17:59, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- It is used as an unoffical flag of Northern Ireland as clearly referenced. Wikipedia relies on whether something can be verified- not original research. I have referenced to reputable sources showing that it is still used. Removal of referenced material to suit a POV is not allowed. Astrotrain 13:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- Astrotrain, the Ulster Banner has not been used as a Offical National or sub-Natioanal flag since 1972, 35yrs ago, you wishing it otherwise dosent alter that fact. Your sources show it is used by sports bodies, they don't count, what counts is the Law and rules of the government.--padraig3uk 14:15, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- I havn't stated that it is the offical flag- in fact it was stated as an unoffical flag and referenced accordingly to reputable sources. You have already failed to get it removed from the Northern Ireland page and various other pages. Removal of referenced material to suit a POV is vandalism. Astrotrain 14:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- This article is of Official Flags, the Ulster Banner is not an Offical Flag, it once was one between 1953-1972 that is why it is in the Historical National Flags section, that is fact. Removal of material that is immaterial to the article is not vandalism, repeatly reverting edits to insert POV is but. As for your last comment, that says more about your own bias then anything else, you are the one pushing a POV in this issue.--padraig3uk 14:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- It's very difficult to have a discussion if you keep repeating the same comments over and over again. On Wikipedia we work with references to reliable sources, something you have been unable to do. It is clearly not an historical flag since it is still in use! It is an unoffical flag as it is not used by the government, that is why it is stated as the unoffical flag. Astrotrain 14:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- The problem is that 1. you want to use an unreliable commercial website source as proof, 2. the source doesnt even back up what you are saying and, 3. you want that source to be taken over and above British law.--Vintagekits 14:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- It's very difficult to have a discussion if you keep repeating the same comments over and over again. On Wikipedia we work with references to reliable sources, something you have been unable to do. It is clearly not an historical flag since it is still in use! It is an unoffical flag as it is not used by the government, that is why it is stated as the unoffical flag. Astrotrain 14:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- It is very difficult when you ignore facts.--padraig3uk 15:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
It is very hard to assume good faith, when it has been repeatly pointed out to you that the Ulster Banner is not an Official National Flag, and your source Flags.net makes this very clear.
- This flag is a banner of the arms of the old Government of Northern Ireland. The flag ceased to be official in 1973, but continues to be used by Unionists. On no account should it be used for official purposes.
It has also been pointed out to you that the use of flags by sporting bodies dosent confer any legal status on that flag, under British Law the Ulster Banner is not recognised in any legal manner. I don't understand why you keep refering to WP:V and WP:OR their is nobody using OR in this article. --padraig3uk 18:10, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Astrotrain - I think it's time to "stop feeding the trolls" as they often say on WP. These 2 have had their blatant campaign to impose their political bias on this issue for long enough - you are wasting your time to attempt to rason with them as no amount of reasoning will be likely get them to stop. Jonto 00:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- Yourself and Astrotrain are the ones trying to impose a political bias on WP, we are trying to present the facts as they are, so I resent you implying I'm a troll. The Ulster Banner is a historical flag, is not a Offical Flag of Northern Ireland.--padraig3uk 00:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- I have also noticed that the political agenda has come back with a vengeance. I'll not name names, but the articles affected are obvious and I believe it to be the tip of the POV iceberg. The article is about British flags. The specific section is regional flags. Northern Ireland is one of the regions, and the flag of Northern Ireland is the only flag that represents the region of Northern Ireland. This 'debate' is pointless, repetitive and part of a political agenda to remove coverage of Northern Ireland and avoid facts simply because some people dont care for those facts. I'll take no further part in this debate unless it has progressed substantially, or until such time as a new flag of Northern Ireland has been created. -- Mal 16:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with some of what you say mal and I would also be happy to see a Flag of Northern Ireland reinstated should one be created by the new assembly.--Vintagekits 17:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- This has nothing to do with WP:IDONTLIKEIT, this is to do with removing false information and POV from WP articles, nobody is trying to remove coverage of Northern Ireland, just trying to ensure that the coverage of these issues is based on facts, and not the POV of certain users. If you wish to take no further part in this discussion then please refain from reverting edits to the article.-- padraig3uk 17:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- Some users are on a campaign to delete the Flag of Northern Ireland from wikipedia, and have now succeeded in doing so here (at least for now). No matter that reliably sourced material was constantly removed to suit a POV agenda and against the consensus of the users on this talk page. It is very difficult to have a reasonable discussion- especially when one editor repeats the same point over and over again; while another just complains he is being abused or insulted if someone disagrees with him. I will see if an admin is willing to look at the issue- it is ridiculous that reliable sources are being removed and replaced with POV and OR. Astrotrain 17:41, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- Astrotrain, Flags.net is a shop and not a reliable source and the information in it didnt even reflect the arguement you were trying to get across, additonally Flags.net does not superceed British law!--Vintagekits 17:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with some of what you say mal and I would also be happy to see a Flag of Northern Ireland reinstated should one be created by the new assembly.--Vintagekits 17:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- I have also noticed that the political agenda has come back with a vengeance. I'll not name names, but the articles affected are obvious and I believe it to be the tip of the POV iceberg. The article is about British flags. The specific section is regional flags. Northern Ireland is one of the regions, and the flag of Northern Ireland is the only flag that represents the region of Northern Ireland. This 'debate' is pointless, repetitive and part of a political agenda to remove coverage of Northern Ireland and avoid facts simply because some people dont care for those facts. I'll take no further part in this debate unless it has progressed substantially, or until such time as a new flag of Northern Ireland has been created. -- Mal 16:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- Astrotrain, you accuse people of pushing POV, so could you point out where this is, give an example of where this POV is in the edits made to this article. WP is about presenting facts, concencus dosent apply if the concencus is non-NPOV and ignoring the facts, those promoting the use of the Ulster Banner are pushing as politial agenda that ignores the fact that it is not the Flag of Northern Ireland. I don't want the flag removed from articles I want it protrayed factualy as the former Northern Ireland flag, that has a place as a historical item.--padraig3uk 17:57, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- Please see my comments here - NI's flag is NOT historical. Jonto 20:54, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
- Yes it is!--Vintagekits 23:04, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
- Please see my comments here - NI's flag is NOT historical. Jonto 20:54, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
- Astrotrain, you accuse people of pushing POV, so could you point out where this is, give an example of where this POV is in the edits made to this article. WP is about presenting facts, concencus dosent apply if the concencus is non-NPOV and ignoring the facts, those promoting the use of the Ulster Banner are pushing as politial agenda that ignores the fact that it is not the Flag of Northern Ireland. I don't want the flag removed from articles I want it protrayed factualy as the former Northern Ireland flag, that has a place as a historical item.--padraig3uk 17:57, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- This is what the British Government says about the Ulster Banner:
- Lord Greaves asked Her Majesty's Government:
- What legislation covers the definition of the form, shape and design, and any rules about the permitted use, of (a) the union flag; (b) the English flag (cross of St George); (c) the Scottish flag(St Andrew's saltire) (d) the Scottish royal lion flag (e) the Welsh flag (dragon); (f) the flag of Northern Ireland. [HL1099]
- 18 Jan 2007 : Column WA181
- Lord Davies of Oldham: (a & b) There is no legislation that governs the form, shape or size of the union flag or the English flag (St George's cross). There are no rules about the permitted use of the union flag or English flag (cross of St George) on non-government buildings, provided the flag is flown on a single vertical flagstaff and neither the flag nor the flagstaff display any advertisement additional to the design of the flag as explained under the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) Regulations 1992. Government departments are restricted to flying flags on 18 fixed days a year in compliance with rules issued by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. Consideration should also be given to flag protocol, which considers it improper to fly the union flag upside down and requires that the flag should not be defaced by text or symbols and should be treated with respect.
- (c & d) There is also no legislation that governs the form, shape or size of the Royal Arms of Scotland (here referred to as The Scottish royal lion flag) or the St Andrew's cross, but the design is firmly specified in the Public Register of All Arms and Bearings in Scotland. The Royal Arms of Scotland can only be used by the Sovereign or Her Great Lieutenants when acting in their official capacity. The Scottish flag(St Andrew's cross) may be flown by Scots and to represent Scotland on all occasions; however, under The Act of Lyon King of Arms Act 1672, cap. 47 individuals may not deface the flag by placing a symbol on top of the flag or use it in such a way that suggests it is his/her personal property.
- (e) There is no specific legislation about the Welsh flag design or rules about permitted use.
- (f) The union flag is the only official flag that represents Northern Ireland. The Flags (NI) Order 2000 empowered the Secretary of State to make the Flags Regulations (NI) 2000, which governs when and where the union flag can be flown from government buildings in Northern Ireland on specified days. The legislation does not define the form, shape or design of the union flag. Flag flying from non-governmental buildings is unregulated.
- For all flags, consideration should also be given to flag protocol, which requires flags to be treated with respect, not to be defaced by text or symbols or flown upside down. [6] --padraig3uk 23:49, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
- Nobody's arguing that the flag is official, but then neither is the Flag of Wales. The Northern Ireland flag should be re-inserted into this article instead of removing it to satisfy blatant POV that Northern Ireland has no flag. beano 11:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
- Beano, the Ulster Banner is NOT the flag of Northern Ireland and never was, it was the banner of the Northern Ireland government between 1953-72 and it status cease to exist when that government was abolished in 1973, to include it is promoting POV.--padraig3uk 11:45, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
- You insist on discussing the flag's legal standing. As I have pointed out on several occasions, that's not what is under dispute. There is a flag, and only one flag, that represents Northern Ireland. Not including it is promoting a POV. beano 22:45, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
- By the way, the very reference you keep citing from the Parliamentary question states "There is no official flag". The very fact they have to use the word official is implies passive recognition that there is, however, an unofficial flag. I propose the UB be reinstated in this page but the text reflect that it has no legal status or it is unofficial or some sort of similar wording (of your choosing if you like) to this effect. beano 22:52, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
- Beano the flags legal standing is what counts, the Ulster Banner only represents one section of the population, therefore it can never be regarded as a de facto flag, and whilst that flag may have had some status in the past it dosent have today, to use it would be POV, nationalists could claim the Tricolour is their de facto flag using your defination.--padraig3uk 22:58, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
- Beano the Ulster Banner hasn't been removed from the article it, it is where it belongs and the wording already states it not offical.--padraig3uk 23:00, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
- It makes it very difficult to discuss this when you keep moving the goal posts. The flag of Wales also has no legal standing so if the legal standing is really your issue you should remove the flag of Wales as well. The problem is that the legal status of the flag is not grounds for inclusion with/exclusion from the other flags of the home nations at the top of the list. Whether it's accepted or not by the entire population, the flag is used to represent Northern Ireland. If this is a cause of great concern to you then perhaps your time would be better spent working to have a replacement brought in rather than denying the use of the current flag. beano 15:56, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
- Beano, WP deals in facts, the fact is the Ulster banner is not a official or a de facto flag of Northern Ireland as it never was the flag of the state but of the government that cease to exist is 1972/3, that fact may not be to your liking, but it is true. I have no interest in seeing or campaigning for a replacement flag, I'am quite content that Northern Ireland dosent have a flag.--padraig3uk 16:46, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
British East India Company
The dates for the three British East India Company flags do not seem right. Were they all in use until 1858? --jmb 14:31, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Astrotrains edit
You have stated that there is POV in the edit can you please explain exactly what yuo mean--Vintagekits 00:51, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Flags incorporating the Union Flag
What about flags incorporating the union flag i.e austrailia nz etc.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.11.195.211 (talk • contribs)
Please stop the political POV campaign, and stick to the facts re current flags
Please stop removing the Flag of Northern Ireland from the list of sub-regional flags. The flag is the ONLY flag which represents Northern Ireland as a political entity as differentiated from the other political entities of the United Kingdom. The fact that the government of Northern Ireland is no longer in existance is irrelevant as the flag is still used (not just in the PAST, but also in the PRESENT) to represent Northern Ireland. Therefore the flag of Northern Ireland does NOT belong in a historical section. That anyone in particular doesn't like it is also irrelevant to the de facto status of the Flag of Northern Ireland. This is an encyclopedia, not a political correctness forum. --Mal 20:16, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- You are wrong - it has been fully discussed above here--Vintagekits 20:19, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- I am not "wrong", and I was part of the discussion above FYI. --Mal 20:25, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- Factually you are wrong. This is not about as you say "political correctness" - this is about being factually correct and not reporting someone as something its not. The UB has not been the Flag of NI for over 30 years - it is therefore historic!--Vintagekits 20:28, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- I am not "wrong", and I was part of the discussion above FYI. --Mal 20:25, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- Exactly - its about facts. And the fact is that the flag of Northern Ireland is used to represent Northern Ireland as independent of the other regions of the United Kingdom, the United Kingdom as a whole, the Republic of Ireland and Ireland as a whole.
- You consistantly fail to see the logic, continually citing the fact that the government of Northern Ireland no longer uses it (when in fact the government of Northern Ireland no longer exists). You are more interested in peoples' opinions of the flag than the fact that it is used, and is the ONLY flag that is used, to represent Northern Ireland as distinct from those other regions I mentioned above.
- The flag is still used, and is therefore NOT 'historic' other than by the fact that it has been used since 1924 or 1927 or whenever it had been designed (and officially by the NI government from 1953). The Northern Ireland flag has not been the flag of the Northern Ireland government only, for 30-odd years. It hasn't stopped being the flag of Northern Ireland. It wasn't liked by everyone back in 1972, 71, 70 etc. That didn't make it any less the flag that represented Northern Ireland either.
- I fail to see the point in debate on this issue any more, and I intensely dislike the collaborative campaign that a small number of you have managed to organise in order to combat what I believe you think of as your percieved enemy.
- You waste so much time in removing this flag from articles, wasting other editors' time that could be spent editing other articles. And now of course, you're threatening to have this productive editor temporarily banned
for luring him into an edit war and into a breach of WP:3RR.That's quite pointless in itself of course, other than make said editor angry and ever more determined. But hey - its up to you how much you decide Wikipedia should be disrupted in order to satisfy WP:IDONTLIKEIT.
- You waste so much time in removing this flag from articles, wasting other editors' time that could be spent editing other articles. And now of course, you're threatening to have this productive editor temporarily banned
- Alternatively, you could have the patience God gifted you, and simply wait until the new NI Assembly designs and institutes a replacement Northern Ireland flag that (almost) everyone will like. It would be interesting to see if there are arguments after such a time. --Mal 20:51, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- The flag was designed speciically for the NI Government its status ended when the Goverment was ended - therefore I am sorry but both are historic whether you like it or not.--Vintagekits 21:11, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- Mal you state your self that the flag is defunct and unofficial so why should it be included here. --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 21:20, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- The flag was designed speciically for the NI Government its status ended when the Goverment was ended - therefore I am sorry but both are historic whether you like it or not.--Vintagekits 21:11, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- Alternatively, you could have the patience God gifted you, and simply wait until the new NI Assembly designs and institutes a replacement Northern Ireland flag that (almost) everyone will like. It would be interesting to see if there are arguments after such a time. --Mal 20:51, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Barry, I'm sure I answered that question above, with respect. "The flag is still used, and is therefore NOT 'historic' other than by the fact that it has been used since 1924 or 1927 or whenever it had been designed (and officially by the NI government from 1953). The Northern Ireland flag has not been the flag of the Northern Ireland government only, for 30-odd years. It hasn't stopped being the flag of Northern Ireland." --Mal 22:52, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- Mal, the flag never was the flag of Northern Ireland, it was the flag of the Government, that is what you fail to understand, once the government was disolved the flag went with it.--padraig3uk 23:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- I see. That's why it was dubbed the Flag of Northern Ireland and used to represent Northern Ireland, is it..? The case is clearly contrary to what you suggest, as the flag is still in use to this day - some 30-odd years after the demise of the Northern Ireland government. --Mal 23:23, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- Its use by who, a few Unionist dominated local authorities, used as a symbol by a couple of sports organisations, used by the loyalist parliamilitary groups. It is not used in any offical manner, its use is excluded from any government building.--padraig3uk 23:33, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- Excuse me but it is used in official manner. Please stop fabricating. --Mal 09:00, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
- This is what the British Government says about the Ulster Banner:
- Lord Greaves asked Her Majesty's Government:
- What legislation covers the definition of the form, shape and design, and any rules about the permitted use, of (a) the union flag; (b) the English flag (cross of St George); (c) the Scottish flag(St Andrew's saltire) (d) the Scottish royal lion flag (e) the Welsh flag (dragon); (f) the flag of Northern Ireland. [HL1099]
- 18 Jan 2007 : Column WA181
- Lord Davies of Oldham: (a & b) There is no legislation that governs the form, shape or size of the union flag or the English flag (St George's cross). There are no rules about the permitted use of the union flag or English flag (cross of St George) on non-government buildings, provided the flag is flown on a single vertical flagstaff and neither the flag nor the flagstaff display any advertisement additional to the design of the flag as explained under the Town and Country Planning (Control of Advertisements) Regulations 1992. Government departments are restricted to flying flags on 18 fixed days a year in compliance with rules issued by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. Consideration should also be given to flag protocol, which considers it improper to fly the union flag upside down and requires that the flag should not be defaced by text or symbols and should be treated with respect.
- (c & d) There is also no legislation that governs the form, shape or size of the Royal Arms of Scotland (here referred to as The Scottish royal lion flag) or the St Andrew's cross, but the design is firmly specified in the Public Register of All Arms and Bearings in Scotland. The Royal Arms of Scotland can only be used by the Sovereign or Her Great Lieutenants when acting in their official capacity. The Scottish flag(St Andrew's cross) may be flown by Scots and to represent Scotland on all occasions; however, under The Act of Lyon King of Arms Act 1672, cap. 47 individuals may not deface the flag by placing a symbol on top of the flag or use it in such a way that suggests it is his/her personal property.
- (e) There is no specific legislation about the Welsh flag design or rules about permitted use.
- (f) The union flag is the only official flag that represents Northern Ireland. The Flags (NI) Order 2000 empowered the Secretary of State to make the Flags Regulations (NI) 2000, which governs when and where the union flag can be flown from government buildings in Northern Ireland on specified days. The legislation does not define the form, shape or design of the union flag. Flag flying from non-governmental buildings is unregulated.
- For all flags, consideration should also be given to flag protocol, which requires flags to be treated with respect, not to be defaced by text or symbols or flown upside down. [7] --padraig3uk 09:15, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Three Revert Rule
Two of you have broken the three revert rule today - an offence with a maximum punishment of a 24 hour block. I don't want to ban anybody, or to have to protect the article, but if you continue to revert war instead of forming a concensus on the talk page, you will be blocked for 24 hours. Thanks, Joe D (t) 21:37, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- Oops, somebody got there before me. Still, the threat of protecting the article stands. Joe D (t) 21:41, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- Which two editors breached WP:3RR?--Vintagekits 21:43, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- Setanta747 (talk · contribs)
- Padraig3uk (talk · contribs)
- Joe D (t) 21:48, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- I dont think Padraig did. I also asked Setanta747 (talk · contribs) on his talk page to self revert as he had breached 3RR - you told that he wouldnt. I would like to see a block put in place as he is disprutively editing a number of articles tonight and has breached 3RR.--Vintagekits 21:52, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- You would like Setanta747 blocked? I don't think that is neccesary, that user appears to have taken a break. Joe D (t) 22:06, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- Can you confirm that it was just Setanta747 that breached 3RR.--Vintagekits 22:10, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- Technically, you did too VK. From 3RR: "The rule does not convey an entitlement to revert three times each day, nor does it endorse reverting as an editing technique; rather, the rule is an "electric fence".[1] Editors may still be blocked even if they have not made more than three edits in any given 24 hour period, if their behavior is clearly disruptive." Stu ’Bout ye! 12:13, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Actually I didnt, unless you are try to say that my edits were "clearly disruptive" - I obviously wasnt. In fact I even tried to avoid Setanta747 breaching 3RR by leaving a messege on his talk page. You can go there to see how well that went down.--Vintagekits 12:26, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Edit warring is considered disruptive. Stu ’Bout ye! 12:40, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- I agree, its just good then that I was not editing waring! Are you saying I was?--Vintagekits 12:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Edit warring is considered disruptive. Stu ’Bout ye! 12:40, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Actually I didnt, unless you are try to say that my edits were "clearly disruptive" - I obviously wasnt. In fact I even tried to avoid Setanta747 breaching 3RR by leaving a messege on his talk page. You can go there to see how well that went down.--Vintagekits 12:26, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Technically, you did too VK. From 3RR: "The rule does not convey an entitlement to revert three times each day, nor does it endorse reverting as an editing technique; rather, the rule is an "electric fence".[1] Editors may still be blocked even if they have not made more than three edits in any given 24 hour period, if their behavior is clearly disruptive." Stu ’Bout ye! 12:13, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Can you confirm that it was just Setanta747 that breached 3RR.--Vintagekits 22:10, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- You would like Setanta747 blocked? I don't think that is neccesary, that user appears to have taken a break. Joe D (t) 22:06, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- I dont think Padraig did. I also asked Setanta747 (talk · contribs) on his talk page to self revert as he had breached 3RR - you told that he wouldnt. I would like to see a block put in place as he is disprutively editing a number of articles tonight and has breached 3RR.--Vintagekits 21:52, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- Which two editors breached WP:3RR?--Vintagekits 21:43, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
It looks like a revert war from the edit history, and that's why it was protected. Stu ’Bout ye! 13:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- As you can see outlined above I was not listed as one of the main protagonists. Its a pretty straight forward question that I asked you. Either you are going to accuse me of edit warring or you should out of decency strike through your initially comment.--Vintagekits 13:39, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Maybe I'm missing something, but from the article's edit history you were one of the people reverting the article, and hence revert warring? Stu ’Bout ye! 15:10, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- You are, I was also disucssing and working within the consensus - therefore it would be folly to suggest that I was engaging in "clearly disruptive behavior" and I resent the accusation.--Vintagekits 15:18, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- The other parties were also discussing, and I don't see any consensus? Stu ’Bout ye! 15:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Only 5 out of the last 50 edits mine, the consensus is taken from the editors and the discussion and !vote on the Northern Ireland talk page. So are you saying my editing is "clearly disruptive behavior"?--Vintagekits 15:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, but you were still reverting. Just because you didn't revert 3 times within 24 hours doesn't mean you weren't revert warring along with the other editors. I don't see any consensus on this page, just a discussion. The vote on the Northern Ireland talk page was inconclusive and produced no consensus. Stu ’Bout ye! 16:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Well by your interpretation of WP:3RR anyone who ever makes a single revert could breach 3RR. I made two reverts yesterday - a breach of 3RR doesnt usually come into play until an editor makes FOUR reverts within a 24 hour period. If you think I breached 3RR please go ahead and report him - I will be making my report about Setanta747 later today.--Vintagekits 16:14, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, but you were still reverting. Just because you didn't revert 3 times within 24 hours doesn't mean you weren't revert warring along with the other editors. I don't see any consensus on this page, just a discussion. The vote on the Northern Ireland talk page was inconclusive and produced no consensus. Stu ’Bout ye! 16:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Only 5 out of the last 50 edits mine, the consensus is taken from the editors and the discussion and !vote on the Northern Ireland talk page. So are you saying my editing is "clearly disruptive behavior"?--Vintagekits 15:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- The other parties were also discussing, and I don't see any consensus? Stu ’Bout ye! 15:43, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- You are, I was also disucssing and working within the consensus - therefore it would be folly to suggest that I was engaging in "clearly disruptive behavior" and I resent the accusation.--Vintagekits 15:18, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
- Maybe I'm missing something, but from the article's edit history you were one of the people reverting the article, and hence revert warring? Stu ’Bout ye! 15:10, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
As Joe D has suggested, I have tried to take a break. I was going to take a break from Wikipedia entirely.. then I decided to take a break just from the issue in question. However, that has been made impossible because every time I use Wikipedia to look up information (my cookies log me in automatically), I get informed of messages on my talk page which are invariably from Vintagekits threatening me with action regarding WP policy. Common sense will tell anyone that there is disruption as caused by people who continuously revert, and there is also disruption caused by those who would try to get 'justice' done, by having an editor blocked etc. Should two negatives equal a positive..?
Frankly I'm exasperated. The points I made in my edit summary were completely ignored and my edits reverted. Obviously this is provocative, as anyone will tell you (note that I am not suggesting there was necessarily deliberate provocation).
I have not approached this article (other than its talk page) since Sunday evening, and I wasn't even aware that it had been edit protected from later that evening.
I would like to remind other editors that I only actually made three reverts during the period in question. My first edit (20:54, 15 April 2007) was simply that: an edit. Only four of the last fifty edits are mine, by the way! Despite all that, I admit that I had breached WP:3RR under the definition pointed to by Stu above. Logically speaking, I should possibly have requested an administrator or something. However, I wasn't to know that the reason I gave for my initial edit in my edit summary would be simply ignored.
Vintagekits has made his desire clear. I hope from now on, I will not have to be constantly on my guard from this editor. --Mal 23:21, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
- Wow! you make me sound very powerful! I'm not really - I'm just an ordinary man, nothing special, nothing grand - i'm slipping into song lyrics now so I'll stop meself.--Vintagekits 09:19, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Commonwelth Flag
A change may want to be made from Image:Flag_of_The_Commonwealth.PNG to Image:Flag_of_The_Commonwealth.svg as SVG should be used where possible. Richard Thompson (Talk! | Contribs) 11:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Edit request: add category
{{editprotected}} Could an administrator please add this article to the category Category:Lists of flags of the United Kingdom as the main article (i.e. [[Category:Lists of flags of the United Kingdom| ]])? Thanks. Bastin 20:35, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
- I've removed protection from the article - it's been protected far too long. Thanks/wangi 20:47, 10 June 2007 (UTC)