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if only one historical curiosity. |
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==Slight Alteration== |
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"was one of the two most prominent leaders of the [[Indian Independence Movement]] against the [[British Raj]] (the other being [[Mahatma Gandhi|Gandhi]])." Whatever you think of him, Nehru has to be mentioned here. I have altered this sentence accordingly. [[User:Sikandarji|Sikandarji]] 17:18, 3 February 2006 (UTC) |
Revision as of 17:18, 3 February 2006
- Archives
Jai Hind
It should be mentioned that Subhash coined the term "Jai Hind", the ubiqutous patriotic chant in India. Wonder what collaborator theorist think abt THAT. --ppm 19:00, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
categorization
User:Alren, would you please explain the cryptic comment "Already in sub-sub-sub cat."? What is wrong with this marked as Category:Indian History? Thanks --Ragib 29 June 2005 20:23 (UTC)
- Ragib, I'm glad U asked. First of all there's nothing cryptic about it. Netaji is already in the sub cat Category:Indian freedom fighters, of sub cat Category:British rule in India of sub cat Category:European Rule in India of Category:Indian history. We cannot possibly list all the freedom fighters under main category. That's the main reason for Wikipedia having categories. I saw that somebody had commented "Alren, SC.Bose and the I.N.A. were the reason why India became independent. If you have difficulty in accepting this fact, why not consult the reading list. Ciao". As much as I respect and admire Netaji, I don't think that him, INA, Rash Behari Bose, Chitranjan Das were not the only reason of India's freedom. There should not be any regional bias . Me being from Gujarat, I can think Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel was the main reason for India's freedom or whatever, does not mean I should go ahead and put SVP at the root category. There a lot's of reasons for India's freedom from 1857 mutiny to Bhagat Singh to the Salt Satygraha to all the unknown martyrs of India's struggle for independnce. I have not touched Mahatma Gandhi and Jawaharlal Nehru with this aspect. Gandhiji is more of a face of India. Nehru whether one likes it or not (myself included) was first prime minister and was another significant figure in India's history. That's why in my constant attempt to catagorize and re-catogrize articles so that the categories do not become overwhelming I constantly revert back SCB, INA, RB out if Category:Indian history. Thanks, Alren 29 June 2005 20:42 (UTC)
- ok, now it makes sense to me. Its difficult to go thru all levels of category tree to find out the root category .... --Ragib 29 June 2005 21:59 (UTC)
- Hmm, this is getting ridiculous, will Alren (talk · contribs) and LordGulliverofGalben (talk · contribs) settle the matter here in the talk page than going on edit/revert/categorization war on the main page? Why don't both of you talk and settle the issue .. I find 8 reverts of the category in the last 15 days. --Ragib 18:28, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
- Ok, in the last month or so, Alren (talk · contribs) and LordGulliverofGalben (talk · contribs) have participated in repeated revert wars on the silly matter of categorization. I found 8 x 2 = 16 reverts between them. Would you *please* discuss the matter in the talk page and settle on something rather than reverting the article every few days? This is becoming a farce. Thanks. --Ragib 16:09, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
- Dear Alren (talk · contribs) and LordGulliverofGalben (talk · contribs), you have NOT at all bothered to discuss it here, but continuously revert the categories, the most recent being today. Would you please go to arbitration over your disputes and leave this page in peace? Why is it so difficult for you two to discuss the matter here and fix your disagreement over categorization? Please follow wikipedia's policies rather than being so stubborn. Thanks. --Ragib 03:48, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
- Dear Ragib (talk · contribs). Where have you not see me discuss anything? In general whatever edits I have made in Wikipedia, have appropriate reasoning mentioned behind that, including this categorization issue of Subhash Chandra Bose, Indian National Army, Rash Behari Bose, Chittaranjan Das. If an issue was raised, (as you saw earlier) I'm willing to discuss. Unlike "Alren, SC.Bose and the I.N.A. were the reason why India became independent. If you have difficulty in accepting this fact, why not consult the reading list. Ciao", I've mentioned my reasoning behind the "revert wars" few paragraphs above. So kindly don't keep on pointing to me for not discussing. Alren 14:29, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
- Ok, I get your point, and you are right in making the categorization correct. I only wanted to stop the recent category-reverts between you and LordGulliverofGalben. I am not questioning your edits (which in my opinion are amply justified), my only concern was that this category issue kept recurring again and again in this page. Now that the category is cleared, we can ask LordGulliver to stop or be reported for vandalism. Thanks. --Ragib 14:39, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
- Alren is right. The is no need for the article to come under the main History of India category. I have posted a message on Gulliver's page. User:Nichalp/sg 09:25, July 17, 2005 (UTC)
- LordGulliverofGalben replies:
- Thank you all for your messages. I consider it to be a matter of ignorance of one's national history that this topic should be raised in the first place. I am not writing this from any regional bias and any charges pertaining to that may be safely ignored. As Shyam Benegal's film expostulates, Subhash Bose and the INA are confined to the dustbin of history and are sadly destined to be forgotten. Yet during the pre-Independent era Gandhi, Nehru and Bose were the three pillars of the Indian freedom movement(if we leave out Jinnah). Jinnah preferred to deal with Nehru rather than Bose, as the latter would never have allowed Partition. Gandhi referred to Bose as his son and it is perhaps this historic conflict between them in 1939 that paved the way for the armed insurrection later. Alren and Nichalp, do you really believe in the officially widespread version of history that India won freedom due to the Quit India Movement of 1942, which ensured that most of the Congress leaders would be incarcerated and humbled. Much as I respect Sardar Patel (as perhaps the lone pragmatist in a coterie of yes-saying Congress leaders), Maulana Azad (for being the lone dissenting Muslim Congress leader), and Nehru -- it is their post-Independence achievements and not that of the Colonial era -- that I admire and respect. On the contrary, the revolt of the Royal Indian Navy in 1946, gave a strong signal to the British that their tool for dominion and conquest, the British Indian army and its sepoys could not be kept at arms length from political happenings for long. 'Better leave India before they start killing us' was how the British reacted in panic. For more, read Nirad C. Chaudhuri's Continent of Circe. The British respected Gandhi, did business with Nehru, but utterly hated Bose. The reason is obvious.
- The reason for putting Bose in the History section is that much of what he said and did (like National Planning, Hindi as national language, and putting national needs above sectarian ones)form the basis of the principles of a sovereign, secular, democratic India, a vision more plausible in imagination than in reality, as the Gujarat riots in 2002 illustrated.
- Indians are content to learn their history from Westerners who are always predisposed to cultivate and project a very negative image. Contrarily, they (Indians) perhaps learn more of American of British history courtesy the History Channel. Alren and Nichalp, why don't you check with some Sulekha.com articles if you are really interested in knowing something on India? It is perhaps the lack of historical awareness , a sense of historical continuity that prevents India from being a developed nation, like Japan, Turkey or even South Korea.
- :LordGulliverofGalben: I have not stated any theories on India's history. History, unlike for example Geography is largely subjective. It is impossible to point out the exact cause in India's independence. While you may claim that NSCB is the main celebrant of India's independance, someone else might refute that. If you feel that he deserves more attention, by all means improve this article with other editors and get it up to Featured Status. Do the same for the INA. You've been here for almost a year, and I consider it a little rude of you to assume, and bluntly state that we are selling out India's history as the topic is on the category, NOT the role of SCB. You claim that Bose was the main reason for India's independance is highly biased, and certainally your personal viewpoint. He may be a major factor in the country's independence, I don't deny that, but there's no reason why he should be categorised under the main category:History of India, the crux of the issue here. That category, I firmly reiterate is for different periods of India's history, NOT for individuals. The individual category is sufficient. I agree that there were some individuals, but I'll see to them that they are removed. Let's have a vote on this shall we? User:Nichalp/sg 08:00, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
- LordGulliverofGalben (talk · contribs), I am not even going to discuss non-issues you brought up, viz. Turkey, South Korea being developed and India isn't or Gujarat riots. I do not want to sidetrack the issue here.
- Firstly, Nobody doubts the contribution of Bose or INA. But for you to think only because of them India became independent is just plain insulting to Bhagat Singh, Bardoli Satyagraha, Victims of Amritsar Massacre (and such incidents), Lala Lajpatrai, all the members in Category:Indian Freedom Fighters and all the unknown martyrs during this struggle and indeed shows ignorance of India's history. So, before acting as if you had been personally present at all the events in Indian History and advising others on where to gain knowledge of the same, kindly broaden your view then just see what Shyam Benegal produces or what Nirad C. Chaudhuri writes (no offence or opinion on either one of them). People reading and contributing to sulekha.com does not mean that what other learned and studied in their history classes from grade 1-12 in India is worthless/inaccurate.
- Secondly, I can see how much depth of history is being brought forward. As you quote Gandhi, Bose was my son, Patel was considered the hands of Gandhi and admire Patel just by acknowledging Patels's post independence contributions and not pre-independence.
- Thirdly, I'm agree that a lot of "... History of India section refers to several personalities, many of dubious repute and doubtful pedigree as well ...", I have no idea why Hannah Marshman, Caroline Augusta Foley Rhys Davids, Mountstuart Elphinstone, etc. are in this category. But instead of your constant rhetoric of bring Bose, et al. in to the Category:History of India, have you given thought of creating appropriate categories , a la, Category:Pre-Independence battles in India, Category:Cities of Ancient India, Category:Historical Indian empires, Category:European Rule in India, Category:British rule in India, Category:Colonial Indian companies, Category:Historical Indian regions, Category:Indian monarchs, Category:Ruling clans of India, Category:Mughal empire, etc.
- Lastly, irrespective (of your charge) "matter of ignorance of one's national history ", it is quite clear and I will reiterate the regional bias issue as you have constantly brought Subhash Chandra Bose, Indian National Army, Rash Behari Bose, Chittaranjan Das, Battle of Plassey, University of Calcutta, Alexander Duff, Hickey's Bengal Gazette or the Calcutta General Advertiser in the Category:History of India and not Bhagat Singh, Bal Gangadhar Tilak's Kesari , Amritsar Massacre, University of Mumbai etc. It just purely smells of regionalism as if (History/People) of Bengal and Kolkatta (no bad feeling to either one of them) equals India.
- P.S. - I strongly echo Nichalp (talk · contribs) " ..I consider it a little rude of you to assume, and bluntly state that we are selling out India's history as the topic is on the category.."" Alren (talk · contribs) 16:20, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
- LordGulliverofGalben replies:
- Alren and Nichalp, thank you for your responses. You have made several charges. Let me have a chance to answer them: First, you bring out the charge of regionalism against me. Some of the articles which I have contributed include: Anita Desai, Punjab University, Chandigarh, Bharatiya Jana Sangh, List of Indian playback singers, Kanupriya Agarwal, List of Heads of State who were later imprisoned, William Carey, Vilayat Khan, B. R. Ambedkar, Jawaharlal Nehru, List of Indian movie actors,Anglo-Indian, XLRI Jamshedpur, XIMB, List of TIME Magazine's 100 most influential people of 2004, Waldemar Haffkine, List of oldest universities in continuous operation, List of people who were cremated, Dharmic, Dharmic religion, Sociology, Hindustan Ambassador, Chyawanprash, School and university in literature, Contributions to liberal theory, University of Delhi, Language Movement Day, Church of North India, Albion Woodbury Small, Asterix and the Magic Carpet, Tata Institute of Fundamental Research, Jawaharlal Nehru University, The Doon School, ISC, The Times of India, Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan among others.
- Does this reflect a regionalist bias or a bias towards enrichment and understanding of human (not merely Indian) experience? For your information I had included Jawaharlal Nehru and B.R.Ambedkar in the previous Indian history section and I have no problems if Bhagat Singh, Sardar Patel etc. are included in the same. So before making a charge , please check it thoroughly.
- But please make a uniform rule: either include all historical figures or include none.
- Secondly, it would be a great idea to include other categories like Category:Pre-Independence battles in India, Category:Cities of Ancient India, Category:Historical Indian empires, Category:European Rule in India, Category:British rule in India, Category:Colonial Indian companies, Category:Historical Indian regions, Category:Indian monarchs, Category:Ruling clans of India, Category:Mughal empire---- as you(Alren) have suggested.
- Last but not the least, I have taken the liberty of removing all other personalities from that list --- to conform to a same standard of having no personalities on that list. Surely Shabeg Singh doesn't deserve to be on the same list as Jawaharlal Nehru. And Alren, you had mentioned that you identified Mahatma Gandhi as the face of India. Sorry, with all respect to Gandhiji, I do not share or accept that view. Living in the West I assure you that it conveys a very negative image of an emaciated underfed India, constantly at odds with modernism. Here the image of India is that of a rising youthful one, able to successfully challenge the best in the world.
- 9:46 EST, July 19, 2005.LordGulliverofGalben
- -To LordGulliver-:
- It would have certainly helped if you had raised queries on the appropriateness of the category. I'd asked you not to add the category to the page and I had clearly explained the rationale behind it. Instead you rant about Subash Chandra Bose and his importance and accuse us of ignorance. We did not for once dispute or glorify his status; all we wanted was the appropriate category on his page. If you had instead cited your reasons for the inclusion of the category, things might have been sorted out in a more civil matter.
- Categories, unlike pages cannot be added to a user's watchlist. It is impossible to ascertain when a new page is added to a category unless you check the page day in and day out. Some editors blindly put the category India or History of India to an article knowing fully well that someone will find a more appropriate category. I'm glad you have realised your mistake and hopefully this issue is now settled. User:Nichalp/sg 09:32, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
- -To LordGulliver-: (from Alren (talk · contribs) )
- Firstly there's a difference between contributing to items of varied area of interest and consistently bring topics related to Kolkota and West Bengal under the main categories. That's what I call regionalism. It can be clearly seen from the examples I brought up and the other items to by you (which you list above).
- The rules are uniform, but there are always exceptions. There's a difference between historical figures of India and Mahatma Gandhi as there's a difference between historical figures of South Africa/Nelson Mandela or h.f. of turkey/Kamal Attaturk, etc. (even though both of these examples are not included in the history of their resp. countries). As some other contributor aptly put in " ..if any person deserves to be in History of India, it's Gandhi..".
- The categories I mentioned are (which U say should be included) were always created as sub (or deeper) categories of Category:History of India.
- I agree that Shabeg Singh does not equate with Jawaharlal Nehru and Mahatma Gandhi but the fact that it was under the category in question does imply it also. It might have been under this cat., for the sole reason, that there are no other appropriate sub-cats under History of India. So instead taking "the liberty of removing all other personalities from that list"" , it should have behooved you to either put then in appropriate sub-cat or create one or just leave it there, lest articles like Ajatashatru and Aspavarman are forever disconnected from India or it's history in this humongous encyclopedia.
- "Sorry, with all respect to Gandhiji, I do not share or accept that view." - Ah! So the billion minus 1 people of India should change it and confirm to yours! Just because you do not like Gandhiji does not change the fact that History of recent India was charted through him. If you do not like Gandhi, that's fine, many people would not agree with some of the actions of Gandhiji, but accept it for a fact that he is indeed the face of India. "Living in the West I assure you that it conveys a very negative image of an emaciated underfed India, constantly at odds with modernism." Thanks for assuring me what the image of India is in the West, sure you would know better as I live in the West ( I dunno, the world or India ;-} ..). "Here the image of India is that of a rising youthful one, able to successfully challenge the best in the world." And which India do U think I came from? Just because U live in India, does not mean you have a complete understanding of India or it's history. I don't know about U, but I bet U that User:Tom Radulovich does have a much better knowledge of the history of India then me .
- Whether U like it or not I will shortly bring back Gandhi in the category in question (if you want a vote for the one, I can start one). Also the pages which were blindly de-cat might meet the same fate.
- Thanks Alren (talk · contribs) 14:27, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
Voting
LordGulliver wishes to have the category: category:History of India added to SCB. There is a sub category category: Indian freedom fighters under the History of India cat. meant for this. The HoI category is meant for time periods and individual locales' histories. User:Nichalp/sg 08:06, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
- In favour of the above
- Not in favour
- User:Nichalp/sg 08:14, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
- Sundar \talk \contribs 08:33, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
- Alren (talk · contribs) 14:11, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
- --Ragib 19:13, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
- pamri 10:45, July 22, 2005 (UTC)
Prevent a new edit war
Hi, this is with reference to my rv of multiple edits by Nirav.Maurya & 129.237.189.68 to that of 134.130.240.109. I have specified the reasons below.
It is an undeniable fact that Mahatma Gandhi supported Pattabhi and viewed his defeat as defeat of Gandhi's principles. Nirav's deletion of these phrases is unwarranted. At the same time, it is not proper to say that Gandhiji ensured Bose's resignation by bringing pressure on him. Here, Nirav's deletion may make sense; however, a better way to view it is "Bose understood that congress is not the ideal vehicle for his views, given the extent of Gandhiji's influence on the congress philosophy." Nirav's statements about Bose's sycophantic supporters do not cut much ice; It is a large body of All India Congress Committee that elected the congress president and a few sycophantic supporters either side cannot really sway the result. Also, Nirav should give some reference with respect to Vithalbhai Patel's estate happenings. 129.237.189.68 edited most of these, by simply deleting them; It doesn't solve the problem - since the article is incomplete without Bose's endeavours at the Haripura and Tripuri sessions of the Congress, which mark an important change in the path of his life. Hence, I reverted these edits to an edit before Nirav.Maurya's first edit. However, some of the points raised by Nirav, such as Bose preferring any means (violent or non-violent) as long as ends are justified, need to be incorporated in the article.
I take justifiable pride in India's freedom struggle and am a great fan of both the Mahatma and SCB (probably more in favor of the former). However, despite personal biases, our primary job on wikipedia must be to maintain a NPOV, so I've reverted the edits. Since some of Nirav's points need incorporation in the article (though probably not in the same tone and tenor), i request others to join me in editing this article further. ---Gurubrahma 07:27, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
About Soviet captivity conspirancy theory
One such claims that Bose actually died in Siberia, while in Soviet captivity.
i am refer at some information why support these conspirance theory,this appareing in Axis history forum "Japanese POW's in the USSR?":
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posted: 28 Mar 2004 19:25
The Soviets attacked Manchuria and Korea after the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Fighting did not stop in Korea until late september 1945.
Some of those captured were reputedly nuclear scientists of Japan's project to build an atomic bomb in North Korea (F-Go Project). Others were involved with Unit 731 which pursued biological warfare methods. Me thinks the real reason why Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed was to force Japan's surrender before Stalin could capture these laboratories.
Some of those captured in Manchuria may have been Indians fighting for Japan recruited by Indian nationalist Chandra s Bose. Bose was sent by Hitler on the U-180 to help with Japan's war effort against the British.
Japanese POW's in the USSR?
Simon Gunson
Member
If these comment poses any sustain,acase indicate the existance of some indians was captured in Manchukuo by Soviet Forces for conduct to siberian gulags? or more specifically between these captured INA indians stayed the "Netanji" Chandra Subhas Bose?
if only one historical curiosity.
Slight Alteration
"was one of the two most prominent leaders of the Indian Independence Movement against the British Raj (the other being Gandhi)." Whatever you think of him, Nehru has to be mentioned here. I have altered this sentence accordingly. Sikandarji 17:18, 3 February 2006 (UTC)