WhatamIdoing (talk | contribs) →Just another tool...: Unlikely |
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:That's good point, but I believe it's being proposed as a guideline, rather than a set-in-stone policy.. and as for any policy or guideline, [[WP:IAR]] still holds. In fact, many of our other policies can also be abused by agenda-driven editors wanting to push their POV. We just need to be diligent in spotting these [[WP:POINT|pointy]] and [[WP:TE|tendentious]] edits. -- [[User:OlEnglish|<font size="5">œ</font>]][[User talk:OlEnglish|<sup>™</sup>]] 02:08, 16 November 2010 (UTC) |
:That's good point, but I believe it's being proposed as a guideline, rather than a set-in-stone policy.. and as for any policy or guideline, [[WP:IAR]] still holds. In fact, many of our other policies can also be abused by agenda-driven editors wanting to push their POV. We just need to be diligent in spotting these [[WP:POINT|pointy]] and [[WP:TE|tendentious]] edits. -- [[User:OlEnglish|<font size="5">œ</font>]][[User talk:OlEnglish|<sup>™</sup>]] 02:08, 16 November 2010 (UTC) |
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::This scenario assumes that no editors are going to notice that the better sources are being systematically deleted. I suspect that's not a reasonable assumption for most articles. The scenario requires (1) a POV pusher, (2) an excessive number of citations, (3) a significant variability in quality of citations, (4) nobody noticing the removal of the best sources [say, like the editors who added them in the first place], (5) nobody adding better sources, and (6) multiple edits spaced out over time [not something your average POV pusher does]. I'm not going to say that it can't happen or that it hasn't happened, but it probably affects far less than 1% of articles. [[User:WhatamIdoing|WhatamIdoing]] ([[User talk:WhatamIdoing|talk]]) 04:50, 16 November 2010 (UTC) |
Revision as of 04:50, 16 November 2010
![]() | Essays Mid‑impact ![]() | |||||||||
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Proposal
I would like to propose that we make this a policy since it is being overused on pages all over the project. All too often, people believe that notabilty might not be established with three citations, and they add a few more just in case. Unfortunately, this ends up loading the page up. I believe that establishing this as a policy will help to shrink article sizes as well as removing the obnoxious overuse of citations on articles. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 17:37, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- No, let's such leave it as the informal essay it is. Fences&Windows 22:52, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
- Policy or guideline, seems some support exists at the village pump for this.Camelbinky (talk) 01:54, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
- I think it's better as an essay. It's reasonable advice, but not suitable to the bright line response that policies/guidelines tend to evoke. It's adequate to say "a million cites doesn't improve an article" along with the reasoning and let the reasoning carry its own weight.--Father Goose (talk) 05:38, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
- Policy or guideline, seems some support exists at the village pump for this.Camelbinky (talk) 01:54, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Counterargument
There are at least two occasions when "overkill" is appropriate. First, if an article says something like "many reports say the building was painted white", then it's nice to see many citations. Second, when a truly extraordinary claim is being made it's worthwhile to have many sources to support it. For example, an article I brought to FA covered a claim that the Astrodome would fly. As a reader, I think that's a assertion that requires extensive and impeccable sourcing. One thing this essay doesn't mention is that multiple citations can be merged into a single footnote. Doing so make it easier on the reader. Will Beback talk 13:56, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
- In my drastic edit, I think I addressed that type of situation <g>. Collect (talk) 14:10, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
- The only reason that this exists is because there is a, "Gee, I think a few citations is enough..." attitude among some readers. Too many of something can be a bad thing, and over three citations is just taking up space on the page. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 05:06, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Oppose in its entirety
I oppose this in its entirety. All articles short of FA status are woefully under- or (not-at-all-) referenced as it is, and giving anyone ammunition to say that lack of referencing is A-OK is a really bad idea. → ROUX ₪ 17:21, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
- For "fully referenced" - look at Astor House, Shanghai and tell me who will ever actually go through all its references.
- For "reference overkill" see any number of political articles. MAny times there are ten or more references for a single word.
- If three references are insufficient to back up a statement, chances are the statement should be reworded. Collect (talk) 18:07, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
- Doesn't matter whether anyone will go through them, it matters that anyone can. Political articles are nasty POV battlegrounds. More referencing is good, because it guarantees to our readers that the information is not only accurate, it is overwhelmingly so. We are an encyclopedia; flow of reading style is a secondary consideration to providing accurate information that is reliably sourced. → ROUX ₪ 18:28, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
- Wow, that article needs a lot of work with combining the references. I think that allowing for a crapload of citations on something as simple as the person not being able to die their shoes at the age of 13 can encourage more dumping of citations onto the fact. Adding more citations to a pretty obvious fact could potentially swamp the article in useless text that makes editing the real stuff harder because you have to sift through tons of crap to find the real point. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 05:17, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
To the point -- does seeing a word with 13 cites after it actually improve the readability fo an article? Ever? Does anyone ever actually read the references? (Empirically, many references are marginally connected to the topic of the article, at best). Collect (talk) 12:19, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
- That and they rarely will read any reference unless the fact interests them. From what I have found, the references are usually parrots of each other, with most mimicing what the other is saying. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 18:31, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
- IMHO such parroting is used to create an impression of overwhelming support for a point of little intrinsic value. Less is more - what is the point of having more than 3 citations in support of any single fact? --TraceyR (talk) 23:15, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
- That's why having this become a policy would be useful because it would let editors know where the line is on citation dumping. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 13:26, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
- IMHO such parroting is used to create an impression of overwhelming support for a point of little intrinsic value. Less is more - what is the point of having more than 3 citations in support of any single fact? --TraceyR (talk) 23:15, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
- I think that references are a good thing, I agree that readability is a concern but I think that we should focus on better tools for managing lists and groups of references rather than deleting them. At the end of the day, I think that Wikipedias greatest contribution is exactly the collection of references that pertain to a particular topic. Unomi (talk) 19:21, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think that anyone is arguing against references - of course they are crucial. But do we need more than e.g. three sources supporting a single fact? That is the issue, surely? --TraceyR (talk) 05:59, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
- I didn't mean to imply that anyone was against references, just that I am very strongly for them :). In some scenarios it protects against 'weathering', link death, slight rewordings that make some refs obsolete etc. It also offers a number of sources which might be used for later expansion or rewrites as they are unlikely to be containing the exact same verbatim information. You may have introduced a fair few underused citations when the article was a stub for example, by shedding those refs it makes it harder for later editors. It also plays a factor on contested articles, where shifting opinion may hold sway regarding what constitutes an extraordinary claim etc. Unomi (talk) 10:43, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
- Personally, I created this article because you will get a basic fact like, "The sky is blue," followed by about 20 citations. People either seem to want to cite the obvious or there is a pervasive fear that it will be challenged without a ton of citations. Things really can't be done except remove them as they could theoretically take up half the page. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 23:27, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
- FWIW I generally oppose the approach and issue identified in this essay. I'm not sure how I would approach editing it, given that I wouldn't so much want to improve it as completely change it. i agree with one element: that lots and lots of cites after a word, to help bolster the position for that word, impairs readability. But that is it. Sometimes those many cites are necessary—even desirable—to communicate to readers that the choice of word is significant; and to communicate to new editors that this word was not chosen lightly, so please don't go messing with the consensus without a serious discussion at the talk page. So multiple cites around contentious points and phrases can be useful for both readers and editors. On a separate issue, I support the use of cites attached to the relevant facts - regardless of whether that is mid-sentence or not. We should take a good long-term view about WP. Fifty years from now, we want the research of the articles to both stand up to scrutiny and be easily reproduced. I don't want to spend time borrowing a book from a library only to find it turned out not to be the cite for fact A, only for fact B, and then have to get some other book to check fact A. As far as possible, cites should be linked to facts. While multiple cites can be a minor impediment to readability, i'd be interested to see the evidence that single cites are a significant problem. But for me, those single cites in the middle of paras and even, occasionally, sentences, are important to the credibility of the underlying research. hamiltonstone (talk) 01:35, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
WP articles are not intended as "research" but statements of what is generally found in secondary sources. Therefore multiple cites (in some cases 20 or more for a single word) are disruptive to the project in esse. If one wishes to make a research paper, WP is not the best venue at all. Collect (talk) 11:25, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
- You have confused "research" with "original research". WP articles do not contain original research, but they must be researched by their writers. hamiltonstone (talk) 22:19, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
Template
Is there a maintenance template that can convey this? -- Ϫ 15:02, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
- Nevermind, found it: Template:Too many references. -- Ϫ 15:05, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
Proposal or essay?
This is plainly not an active proposal, but my correction of the template was reverted. If anyone does want to actively propose that this be made into a guideline or policy then please do, otherwise this should be marked as an essay. Fences&Windows 15:41, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Note the comments above where this is being discussed. And also note WP:DEADLINE Collect (talk) 16:00, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- DEADLINE is irrelevant, this isn't an article. If you want to propose it actively as a guideline or policy, do so. If it's actually an essay, then we should mark it as such instead of cluttering up Category:Wikipedia proposals. Sorry for posting a comment on your user page, I'm a muppet. Fences&Windows 22:04, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaops the fact that most of the proposals which are in similar state have been around much longer than this one should be noted? I do not see you marking all of the really old ones for removal - perhaops you should examine them by age? Collect (talk) 10:15, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
I wrote it and support but I have obvious bias since I nominated it as a proposal. What do others think? Kevin Rutherford (talk) 01:15, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
- Support making into a style guideline. As in those examples given it adversely affects readbility and just looks silly/amateurish. This is something all editors should strive to follow project-wide. -- Ϫ 10:51, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose moving this beyond essay status. As an essay, it provides a useful perspective -- I would say an exaggerated/overreaching perspective, but that's fine in an essay. As a guideline, many of its specific points are either contradictory or inappropriate (or at least have not established consensus of their appropriateness per previous discussion). I will lay out further reasoning below. Such a proposed guideline presents problems of POV pushing via wikilawyering which have been brought up on this talk page but not resolved.
- More broadly, this essay needs a broader set of eyeballs for vetting and demonstration of consensus before anyone should consider promoting it. Removal of reliable sources is a sensitive subject and if carried out too incautiously, it's liable to face serious backlash. If the provisions on removing reliable sources are to become binding, that needs to be reflected at WP:V -- so that is the place to establish consensus, not here. Style and content guidelines can be adjusted afterwards. Baileypalblue (talk) 07:03, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- I would not support the removal of existing sources. I am in support of a style guideline that directs editors to, in the future, not add absurd amounts of citations after a sentence just to prove a point. Furthermore, there are different ways of displaying/organizing inline citations, like in groups, that offer alternatives to a distracting string of numbers after a sentence. Any existing examples of citation overkill don't have to have their reliable sources removed per se, just restyled. -- Ϫ 03:31, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Provisions of this essay that should be reconsidered
- The nutshell: "Less is more when it comes to footnotes" -- fundamentally wrong attitude towards sourcing and a serious overreach. Good expression of the underlying perspective behind the essay, but potentially contradictory with some of the body (thinking specifically of How to trim excessive citations which touches on situations in which less is not more). The most one can validly say is that there will eventually come a point at which more cites to a statement become counterproductive. As it stands, the nutshell will be misused not only by vandals and POV pushers, but by mistaken good faith editors.
- "Where material can be supported clearly by a single footnote, best practice is to stop there." Wrong. Multiple cites demonstrate consensus that a claim is correct and put those claims into context the article cannot provide on its own -- who is making this claim? How widespread is this claim? What did they actually say? Others (e.g. User:Will Beback, User:Unomi, User:Hamiltonstone) have given reasons for using multiple cites which I won't recapitulate.
- Multiple cites protect against linkrot and the relative inaccessibility of some sources. What happens when one source is published in a highly reliable but obscure journal, another is published in a source that is easily accessible online but relatively less reliable, and another is widely published but buried in hundreds of pages of technical jargon? Note that How to trim excessive citations touches on this problem by implicitly endorsing the use of multiple sources, which contradicts the assertion here that any time a claim can be supported "clearly" by one source "best practice is to stop there".
- "The next ten footnotes for the same point do not help anyone." The essay attacks extreme cases ("fifteen or more footnotes after a single word", Sixteen citations!, 17 citations for one sentence) in order to build consensus for opposition of more moderate cases. This is poor argumentation. What exactly is the intended scope of this proposed policy? Based on How to trim excessive citations it appears the objective is to establish a limit of three cites per point of information. If so, then references to "one footnote is enough" should be removed from the essay, and it should be written to convince us that four or five cites is overkill, instead of convincing us that fifteen cites is overkill. Of course it would be much easier to build consensus against fifteen cites than against five, so perhaps the proposed guideline should be scaled back to deal only with these extreme cases. If the ultimate answer is that we can't make the proposed guideline much more specific than it already is, that's a good sign it is too vague to be a guideline.
- "A rule of thumb is that one footnote after a sentence is enough, two begins to look untidy, and more than three is definitely clutter." Disagree. Fifteen sources = clutter, but four? Two are "untidy"?
- How to trim excessive citations: The details of this section are likely to engender controversy in application, even create an avenue for POV warring by selective deletion of sources one side in a debate dislikes.
- "The purpose of any article is first and foremost to be readable." This is an overreach. Readability is important, but verifiability is more important.
The stylistic concerns addressed by this essay are fairly trivial: a bunch of tiny blue numbers at the end of a sentence does little to impair readability for users, and any readability concerns for editors are secondary in an encyclopedia like this one which is intended to be optimized for readers. There should be a strong presumption in favor of preservation of information over issues of style, and this essay fails to find the proper balance. Baileypalblue (talk) 07:45, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Those are some good points, and I will fix this up tomorrow if I can remember. If I don't do it in a few days, feel free to bug me as I won't mind a bit of a reminder. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 02:54, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, all done. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 00:22, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
How many, how few? A good question
The fact there is much discussion here and unclarity, flags it up as a good question. It seems like a tricky balance to strike - enough, solid citations on the one hand and cites not being used to bolster polemic or paranoia on the other. As quality of content is the main issue facing the public perception of WP it'll not be surprising if articles veer towards wanting a cite for everything posited as a fact, especially in BLPs. It seems articles were conceived to be written with the underpinning assumption of the good faith of the author. I wonder if this still holds, as WP moves towards emphasising demonstrable quality over good faith. I'm sure all this has been argued over countless times elsewhere, but the quandary become clear in essays like this. You'd have to find an answer to it before adding anything to MOS, I suggest. Spanglej (talk) 20:19, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
- I should hope it still holds! Quality means brilliant prose, not verifiability. As we stop trusting our content editors to write good articles extreme deletionism starts growing out of control and we'll have idiots wanting a cite for the sky being blue. Only "material challenged or likely to be challenged" (WP:V) should have a cite and that's they way it should always be. -- Ϫ 08:57, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Just another tool...
I fully understand the reasoning behind this proposal. And I fully concur that an overly cited passage can be aesthetically unpleasing. Yet, what concerns me is that if a finite number of cites becomes policy, it's just another tool for agenda driven editors to work their magic.
Let's say an article on your favorite topic contains a fact that you dislike. And this inconvenient fact is quite well cited. What you then do is use the "over citation" rule to prune some of the citations. But instead of pruning the least reliable on dodgy sources, you remove the most credible sources. Then some time later, you or another like-minded editor, comes along and goes "Whoa all these sources are garbage... let me go ahead and delete that for you." To me it seems like a policy that would be ripe for abuse. --192.35.35.34 (talk) 01:25, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
- That's good point, but I believe it's being proposed as a guideline, rather than a set-in-stone policy.. and as for any policy or guideline, WP:IAR still holds. In fact, many of our other policies can also be abused by agenda-driven editors wanting to push their POV. We just need to be diligent in spotting these pointy and tendentious edits. -- Ϫ 02:08, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
- This scenario assumes that no editors are going to notice that the better sources are being systematically deleted. I suspect that's not a reasonable assumption for most articles. The scenario requires (1) a POV pusher, (2) an excessive number of citations, (3) a significant variability in quality of citations, (4) nobody noticing the removal of the best sources [say, like the editors who added them in the first place], (5) nobody adding better sources, and (6) multiple edits spaced out over time [not something your average POV pusher does]. I'm not going to say that it can't happen or that it hasn't happened, but it probably affects far less than 1% of articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:50, 16 November 2010 (UTC)