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:# [[User:Kirill Lokshin|Kirill]] <sup>[[User talk:Kirill Lokshin|[talk]]] [[User:Kirill Lokshin/Professionalism|[prof]]]</sup> 23:53, 8 July 2011 (UTC) |
:# [[User:Kirill Lokshin|Kirill]] <sup>[[User talk:Kirill Lokshin|[talk]]] [[User:Kirill Lokshin/Professionalism|[prof]]]</sup> 23:53, 8 July 2011 (UTC) |
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:# I have read the comments below in the discussion section, and while I do understand where people are coming from (in that Δ is essentially trying to enforce one of WP's core policies), however, to put it blunt terms.. in doctor's terms.. their bedside manner sucks, and they have been asked to improve it, time and time again, and they can not or will not. A couple statements below also bring up BLP violations and try to equivocate it to what Δ does. However, that is a logical fallacy. We have carved out an edit warring exemption to 3RR for violations of BLP policy. There is no such exemption for NFCC violations. I'm not going to say whether there should be or not. We're not dealing with "how it should be", but how it is. In short, Δ is "right", but in the wrong way, consistently. [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] ([[User talk:SirFozzie|talk]]) 00:47, 9 July 2011 (UTC) |
:# I have read the comments below in the discussion section, and while I do understand where people are coming from (in that Δ is essentially trying to enforce one of WP's core policies), however, to put it blunt terms.. in doctor's terms.. their bedside manner sucks, and they have been asked to improve it, time and time again, and they can not or will not. A couple statements below also bring up BLP violations and try to equivocate it to what Δ does. However, that is a logical fallacy. We have carved out an edit warring exemption to 3RR for violations of BLP policy. There is no such exemption for NFCC violations. I'm not going to say whether there should be or not. We're not dealing with "how it should be", but how it is. In short, Δ is "right", but in the wrong way, consistently. [[User:SirFozzie|SirFozzie]] ([[User talk:SirFozzie|talk]]) 00:47, 9 July 2011 (UTC) |
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:# [[User:Jclemens|Jclemens]] ([[User talk:Jclemens|talk]]) 00:48, 9 July 2011 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 00:48, 9 July 2011
Motions
Motions regarding User:Δ (formerly User:Betacommand)
Motion: User:Δ topic banned
Pursuant to the provisions of Remedy 5.1, RfAr/Betacommand 2, and mindful of the recent and current disputes surrounding this user in many fora, the committee by motion indefinitely topic-bans Δ (formerly known as Betacommand) from making any edit enforcing the non-free content criteria, broadly construed. User:Δ is also formally reminded of the civility restriction and other terms to which they are still subject as a condition of the provisional suspension of their community ban.
- Support:
- Roger Davies talk 20:43, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- The Cavalry (Message me) 21:04, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- Clearly too much editor and administrative time is being consumed by disputes over Δ's non-free content criteria enforcement: by my count there are threads within the last 48 hours at AN, ANI, Δ's AN subpage, AN3 (2), Wikiquette alerts, AE, and DRN. –xenotalk 20:40, 14 January 2011 (UTC) 21:29, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- Kirill [talk] [prof] 23:53, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- I have read the comments below in the discussion section, and while I do understand where people are coming from (in that Δ is essentially trying to enforce one of WP's core policies), however, to put it blunt terms.. in doctor's terms.. their bedside manner sucks, and they have been asked to improve it, time and time again, and they can not or will not. A couple statements below also bring up BLP violations and try to equivocate it to what Δ does. However, that is a logical fallacy. We have carved out an edit warring exemption to 3RR for violations of BLP policy. There is no such exemption for NFCC violations. I'm not going to say whether there should be or not. We're not dealing with "how it should be", but how it is. In short, Δ is "right", but in the wrong way, consistently. SirFozzie (talk) 00:47, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
- Jclemens (talk) 00:48, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose:
- Abstain:
Alternative motion: User:Δ site banned
In breach of the provisional suspension of their community ban, Δ (formerly known as Betacommand) has engaged in conduct injurious to the encyclopedia and the indefinite community ban is hereby reinstated by motion of the Arbitration Committee.
- Support:
- Roger Davies talk 20:43, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- I'd rather it does not come to a full ban, and would prefer the NFCC motion. However, in my opinion, Δ's extreme interpretation of the NFCC policy and refusal to compromise is hurting the project more than it is helping. It antagonises and ultimately drives away users who are acting in good faith, but I do understand that Δ does a lot of good work with the project in other areas, and I commend him especially for his work with Δbot (talk · contribs). The Cavalry (Message me) 21:12, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- Second choice for now, though I am unconvinced it will not come to this regardless; Δ has an unfortunate history of aggressively pushing the limits of any restrictions placed on him, and I fear that even the straightforward topic ban above will not be adhered to. Kirill [talk] [prof] 23:56, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose:
- Δ is capable of doing good work other than NFCC enforcement without issue; for example, Δbot (talk · contribs) has been quietly chugging away with no complaints. –xenotalk 20:40, 14 January 2011 (UTC) 21:29, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- I think he can and does do good work elsewhere, so all that is necessary (for now) is the removal from where he is disruptive. SirFozzie (talk) 00:47, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
- Abstain:
Discussion re: Motion1
- I wonder, just how many times does it take to make something stick to a wall? It's certainly less than how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie roll tootsie pop. These endless proposals for this, that, or the other band are insane. Everyone is effectively saying "Δ, until your morale and attitude improves, the beatings will continue". The results here are utterly predictable. ANYone forced to put up with as much abuse as he has suffered would have "issues" with his behavior. Want a real proposal? How about a moratorium on the *()#@$@#! endless ban/topic-ban/beat-senseless proposals. Those arbcom members voting support of either sanction are ignorant of the underlying issues that are happening right now and the constant, unending harassment for the work Δ has been doing. You are railroading Δ, pure and simple. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:50, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- A topic ban was proposed at WP:AN, and failed to reach consensus. A site ban was proposed at WP:ANI, and was snow-closed amid overwhelming opposition. For ArbCom to resurrect both proposals in an explicit attempt to override what the community has decided feels like a bit of a slap in the face, to be honest. 28bytes (talk) 21:55, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed. Thoroughly agreed. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:01, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- I've get to see any policy state that a 65% majority is not enough to enact this ban. It failed only because no one was willing to enforce it yet. It didn't fail consensus based on any policy.--Crossmr (talk) 23:21, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- It failed because it didn't have consensus. Hence the further disruption and forum-shopping that has ended up here; sadly ArbCom appear to be even more clueless than the community. Black Kite (t) (c) 00:06, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
- ArbCom should also be aware that Δ has performed thousands upon thousands of edits over the last year in support of NFCC enforcement. This was done without creating very much fuss, without a whole bunch of hoopla about it. ArbCom should also be aware that over the last three months inclusive, six different reports were made to WP:EW in an attempt to get Δ blocked for NFCC enforcement. Only the most recent of those reports saw a block come down for it (and that, controversially). All the others were found to not be violations but one that ended up going stale. The people asking for his head have been wrong over and over and over again. But, instead, we take the cop out approach and topic ban him? Wow. Utterly wow. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:05, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- Responding specifically to Xeno; just because there ARE threads in existence doesn't make Δ WRONG. Case point; the WQA thread found in Δ's favor. If I started threads at multiple locations about you, should we then assume you should be topic banned? You are compelled to look deeper than this. Do it. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:17, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- The biggest act of ArbCom hypocrisy ever. If Delta was edit-warring to remove BLP violations, you'd all be running desperately to defend him. Despite the fact that NFCC is as much of a pillar as BLP (in fact possibly more so - look at that word "Free" in the top left hand corner of the page), you're all pandering to the peanut gallery. It's frankly sickening, and you really need to take a long good look at yourselves. You are enabling copyright violators. Pathetic. Black Kite (t) (c) 22:57, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- Echoing Black Kite. This is an absurd farce. Look at our Five Pillars, our m:Mission, and then tell me you really believe the fault lies with Delta and not the asinine hounding, berating and abuse he takes simply for trying to help keep us true. I signed up for this project the same time many others did im sure, seeing Jimmy's interview posted on slashdot back in the day, about giving every person, every child, every school free knowledge. Freely shared, freely used, to better actual lives. To improve education, to improve access. We had morals, and these motions do nothing more then implicitly turn our backs on what we once reveled in. This is shame-worthy. -- ۩ Mask 23:41, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- "Wikipedia is first and foremost an effort to create and distribute a free encyclopedia of the highest possible quality to every single person on the planet in their own language. Asking whether the community comes before or after this goal is really asking the wrong question: the entire purpose of the community is precisely this goal." Jimmy in 2005, on the mailing list. Quite simply, at this point I think what we're seeing is a conflict between 'the community' and 'other people who are editing wikipedia'. Founding principals determine the scope of membership for organizations and nonprofits such as ours, and that should not be forgotten. I like to view it as Reform Judaism, accepting converts from all others to build our cause. -- ۩ Mask 23:54, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- Precisely. Still, at least this Arbcom looks like it will go down in history as the one that declared "Free Encyclopedia? No, can't be bothered with that, it's just a website like any other". Well done. When are you going to change WP:5P? Black Kite (t) (c) 00:05, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
- How is strongarm tactics going to win over the community in general? We have issues with editor retention as is and the (adjective redacted) edit wars of recent weeks are ridiculous. Yes we need to address NFCC, but in some cases I've seen betacommand's interaction has been unconstructive to say the least. So if one is rude enough, the other party will suddenly be converted??? this was ridiculous, we are supposed to be editing collaboratively, not self-appointed wiki-cops doing the equivalent of ordering about content contributors like naughty children. I do concede that I am undecided about the bans though, if you supporters can think of anyother way forward I am all ears. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:17, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
- Cas, have you seen this? Δ links to this in his edit summaries. But if you look at some of the timestamps of when people revert his image removals, it's clear they don't even take the time to look at this document that tells them how to fix the problem, begs them not to edit-war, and gives them a list of editors who will help them. Does Δ have to copy and paste the whole thing to their talk pages to get them to understand? There are quite a few of us who are trying to mitigate the conflict between NFCC enforcers and people who get mad their images are removed, but those folks have to meet us halfway. 28bytes (talk) 00:28, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
- Cas, you are missing the point. If people turn up and violate BLP all over the place, we block them and frankly we don't really care how we communicate with them. However with NFCC there appears to be the case that a vocal minority of the community thinks this particular policy should be treated differently. Yes, Delta is not always the easiest editor to deal with, but his usual edit pattern tells people what they're doing wrongly. Seriously - removing his ability to deal with huge amounts of non-controversial NFCC enforcement rather than trying to find a way to fix the issue without the pitchforks and torches? Isn't discussion the way this
Free Encyclopediawebsite is run? But since AGF has run out here, so has mine; the Arbs who have !voted for a site ban have made themselves look idiots. Kudos at least to Xeno here. Black Kite (t) (c) 00:33, 9 July 2011 (UTC) - (edit conflict) I have to second 28- there all too often seems to be an "oh, it's those non-free content freaks again" mentality. I know you were using it as the unpleasant extreme, but a lot of people seem to actually view the situation as "wiki-cops versus content contributors", in the same way there is sometimes a "civility police versus article writers" dichotomy. I don't think that mentality is helpful. J Milburn (talk) 00:35, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
- How is strongarm tactics going to win over the community in general? We have issues with editor retention as is and the (adjective redacted) edit wars of recent weeks are ridiculous. Yes we need to address NFCC, but in some cases I've seen betacommand's interaction has been unconstructive to say the least. So if one is rude enough, the other party will suddenly be converted??? this was ridiculous, we are supposed to be editing collaboratively, not self-appointed wiki-cops doing the equivalent of ordering about content contributors like naughty children. I do concede that I am undecided about the bans though, if you supporters can think of anyother way forward I am all ears. Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:17, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
- Precisely. Still, at least this Arbcom looks like it will go down in history as the one that declared "Free Encyclopedia? No, can't be bothered with that, it's just a website like any other". Well done. When are you going to change WP:5P? Black Kite (t) (c) 00:05, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
- "Wikipedia is first and foremost an effort to create and distribute a free encyclopedia of the highest possible quality to every single person on the planet in their own language. Asking whether the community comes before or after this goal is really asking the wrong question: the entire purpose of the community is precisely this goal." Jimmy in 2005, on the mailing list. Quite simply, at this point I think what we're seeing is a conflict between 'the community' and 'other people who are editing wikipedia'. Founding principals determine the scope of membership for organizations and nonprofits such as ours, and that should not be forgotten. I like to view it as Reform Judaism, accepting converts from all others to build our cause. -- ۩ Mask 23:54, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- Echoing Black Kite. This is an absurd farce. Look at our Five Pillars, our m:Mission, and then tell me you really believe the fault lies with Delta and not the asinine hounding, berating and abuse he takes simply for trying to help keep us true. I signed up for this project the same time many others did im sure, seeing Jimmy's interview posted on slashdot back in the day, about giving every person, every child, every school free knowledge. Freely shared, freely used, to better actual lives. To improve education, to improve access. We had morals, and these motions do nothing more then implicitly turn our backs on what we once reveled in. This is shame-worthy. -- ۩ Mask 23:41, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
Discussion re: Motion 2
- See my response to motion 1. Further, today a proposal was made to ban Δ from the site. It was overwhelmingly opposed, 19-3. It isn't what the community wants. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:50, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- You appear to be under the illusion that ArbCom is here to enable the community. Black Kite (t) (c) 22:59, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- I cannot offer arguments beyond what everyone else has done time and time again. I'm not on ArbCom, I've never had much to do with ArbCom, and I doubt I will ever have much by way of dealings with ArbCom, but banning Delta would be a terrible thing to do, and I hope those who have voted in support will reconsider. J Milburn (talk) 00:41, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
General discussion
Today, I was trying to find a venue to bring ArbCom's attention to the unending spat of ban/topic-ban proposals that have erupted over the last week, and the constant harassment that Δ has endured and couldn't find an appropriate place (complaint for another time). I had a false hope that ArbCom might have the wherewithal to recognize the serious situation for what it was; a massive conflict with a ton of flame added by a number of editors contributing to the dispute. I had hoped ArbCom would have been willing to step in and calm the waters. Instead, it appears ArbCom is willing to take the cop out, and refuse to address the serious problems created by all contributors to this dispute. Shame on you ArbCom, shame on you. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:00, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
I'll repeat what I said elsewhere from the last weeks of additions: If you take out Delta from the "NFCC and Delta" problem, the issue will only return as "NFCC and (someone else)", whether that be Hammersoft, Black Kite, or a half-other dozen editors that keep NFC in line on WP, because there are editors that simply bother not to learn the policy or have come to resent it. I cannot fully clear Delta on his behavior on certain actions of late (as there's a confluence of numerous issues). But to simply to ban/block Delta without addressing the other side of the issue (whether this be the consensus for NFC, or those that employ a very loose interpretation of it, or a number of other factors) is a temporary reprieve. I will say this: there may be several pending ideas to improve NFC, and it may be a wise idea to try to bring in ArbCom to at minimum assign a moderator to assure the consensus process is not derailed by personal issues. --MASEM (t) 22:41, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- If another editor decides to step into Beta's shoes with clumsy disputed mass edits followed by scolding, insults, threats, and edit warring, over what Chase Me describes as "extreme interpretation of the NFCC policy and refusal to compromise", then they will ultimately have to stop as well. The phrase "editors that simply bother not to learn the policy" is indicative of the problem, an utter and complete refusal to acknowledge that some editors legitimately and reasonably believe NFCC policy and the NFC guideline urge an image be kept or its rationale fixed in a given case, or ask as the guideline instructs that some things are consensus matters to be resolved through discussion. Edit warring and incivility are the antithesis of constructive work on the encyclopedia, and the former is permitted as an exception to WP:3RR only in the extreme case where something "unquestionably" violates the policy. Telling others that their question doesn't count because you know you are right is no substitute for discussion. - Wikidemon (talk) 22:55, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- The place for discussion is at the policy page, not knowingly breaking the policy and then saying you don't agree with it. That should be obvious. Black Kite (t) (c) 23:01, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- (ec)And ergo, a ban/block on NFC is not the right solution if the issue is "edit warring and incivility" (and again, to be clear, I support Arbcom re-establishing this facet of the community restrictions). But again, the other facet is NFC itself (not Delta); I've pointed out many many times before that if there is a problem with how NFC is interpreted differently by different people, then there's should be proposals aplenty at WT:NFC to amend and revise the policy to either reaffirm what it says or bring it in line with what consensus suggests, but that's not happening relative to the amount of discussion there is about Delta's specific actions. No one wants to seem to touch the core problem, which is the dissent to which NFC is handled. There is an RFC attempting to generate ideas to improve it, and I will offer that Delta offered two automatic bots that would aid in fixing and tagging broken NFC images, so it is not like there's no attempts at all - just not what I'd think there would be. --MASEM (t) 23:19, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- It could also be argued that the correct way to go about getting one's editing sanctions lifted is to stay within them and to keep one's nose clean, rather than to repeatedly violate them while continuing to get into lame, petty spats like 3RR violations. I don't doubt for a minute that Delta was goaded into a good few of these (MMN taking him to ANI for a civility problem really takes the cake), but very few people seriously think this is a stitch-up. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 23:23, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- The problem has always been and continues to be Delta's behaviour. There is absolutely nothing in NFCC that dictates or mandates his behaviour. Nothing. Not a single word. I touched the core problem. I went out and enforced NFCC in a community focused manner without causing disruption, hurt feelings or generating any dissent. Neither one of us had our edits mandated by NFCC policy and there was an entirely different result. Delta's edits are his own choice and his own behaviour.--Crossmr (talk) 23:27, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- You did it well away from the edges where consensus may or may not be there for the types of actions Delta was doing; therefore, there's no reasonable expectation that you'd get hit with what Delta has. Delta operates at the fringes where he and several others (including myself at times) think he is right in application (not necessarily approach) and several others think he's wrong. Those that think he's in the wrong when the policy is not clear need be ready to revise and clarify the policy to bring that part of the policy closer to their view. --MASEM (t) 23:49, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- Or vice-versa. Policy is almost never black and white where reasonable editors disagree, for if it were their disagreement would not be reasonable. Disagreements have to be handled through reasoned discussion, not force of aggressive content changes. The encyclopedia has largely complied at this point with the Foundation's requirement for non-free use rationales and we are in a stage of maintenance and refinement (if a huge problem remained the Foundation or ArbCom could step in at any time, and they have not). Thus, any editor wanting to enact a large scale change across many article in how we handle images needs to establish that consensus, policy, or the Foundation is on their side. Saying "you're wrong" many times in succession doesn't make it so. - Wikidemon (talk) 00:14, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
- If you're referring to the removal of files without a rationale, then that consensus has existed for years. The policy requires that any usage has a rationale, and so any usage without a rationale can be removed. That's not controversial. Some people don't like it, and some people dislike/misunderstand the NFCC, but that does not mean that it's not the policy, and that does not mean that the policy does not have consensus. J Milburn (talk) 00:25, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
- Not at all - you're quite mistaken on that. There are two different issues here. I was speaking to the first, where there is a legitimate difference of opinion on how the policy and guidelines apply to specific images and whether they are justifiable in articles. Wherever you draw that line there are going to be matters of interpretation and some images that fall on the line, so editors have to work together in a spirit of cooperation to work through the hard choices on a case-by-case matter. "I'm enforcing NFCC so you're wrong" is not a legitimate way to deal with that. The second issue, regarding missing or flawed tags, is a different discussion. Everyone agrees that images should have use rationales. "Any usage can be removed" is a long way from "You can't disagree with any scheme I come up with that removes images and if you you're a disgrace to the project". - Wikidemon (talk) 00:44, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
- If you're referring to the removal of files without a rationale, then that consensus has existed for years. The policy requires that any usage has a rationale, and so any usage without a rationale can be removed. That's not controversial. Some people don't like it, and some people dislike/misunderstand the NFCC, but that does not mean that it's not the policy, and that does not mean that the policy does not have consensus. J Milburn (talk) 00:25, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
- Or vice-versa. Policy is almost never black and white where reasonable editors disagree, for if it were their disagreement would not be reasonable. Disagreements have to be handled through reasoned discussion, not force of aggressive content changes. The encyclopedia has largely complied at this point with the Foundation's requirement for non-free use rationales and we are in a stage of maintenance and refinement (if a huge problem remained the Foundation or ArbCom could step in at any time, and they have not). Thus, any editor wanting to enact a large scale change across many article in how we handle images needs to establish that consensus, policy, or the Foundation is on their side. Saying "you're wrong" many times in succession doesn't make it so. - Wikidemon (talk) 00:14, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
- You did it well away from the edges where consensus may or may not be there for the types of actions Delta was doing; therefore, there's no reasonable expectation that you'd get hit with what Delta has. Delta operates at the fringes where he and several others (including myself at times) think he is right in application (not necessarily approach) and several others think he's wrong. Those that think he's in the wrong when the policy is not clear need be ready to revise and clarify the policy to bring that part of the policy closer to their view. --MASEM (t) 23:49, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
It's not clear to me why we can't make things work by letting Delta and Crossmr collaborate on the issue of removing "illegal images". Delta could do what he is doing now, except that he should stick to 1RR when removing images. When reverted twice, he simply posts a notification on a page monitored by Crossmr. Then Crosmmr focusses on these cases where good personal interaction skills are more important.
So, the bulk of the removals are then handled by Delta, his approach is necessary to do that, but where the potential problems could arise, which is a small fraction of the total number of cases, Crossmr steps in. Count Iblis (talk) 00:48, 9 July 2011 (UTC)