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The Indian government does not have any record to prove that Bose died on 18 August 1947. Even the Taiwan government deposed to the Mukherjee commission that no plane crash happened on 18 August 1945 that killed Bose. The posthumous Bharat Ratna awarded to Bose was later withdrawn by the Indian government because they did not have any evidence to suggest that Bose in fact died. In view of these, the death date of Bose cannot be established. Please check the article [[Disappearance of Subhas Chandra Bose]] for more details. -- [[User:XrieJetInfo|XrieJetInfo]] ([[User talk:XrieJetInfo|talk]]) 12:56, 6 November 2013 (UTC) |
The Indian government does not have any record to prove that Bose died on 18 August 1947. Even the Taiwan government deposed to the Mukherjee commission that no plane crash happened on 18 August 1945 that killed Bose. The posthumous Bharat Ratna awarded to Bose was later withdrawn by the Indian government because they did not have any evidence to suggest that Bose in fact died. In view of these, the death date of Bose cannot be established. Please check the article [[Disappearance of Subhas Chandra Bose]] for more details. -- [[User:XrieJetInfo|XrieJetInfo]] ([[User talk:XrieJetInfo|talk]]) 12:56, 6 November 2013 (UTC) |
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:You are attempting to do original research. :Doesn't make any difference whether the Indian government has his death certificate or not, or what the inquiry commissions concluded. Wikipedia is beholden only to secondary reliable sources. When such sources, authored by some of the best-known historians of the day: [[Christopher Bayly]], [[Stanley Wolpert]], [[Barbara D. Metcalf]], [[Thomas R. Metcalf]], [[Burton Stein]], and [[Sugata Bose]] say he died in August 1945, he died in August 1945. No amount of make-believe Wikipedia Pages or conspiracy theories will change that. [[User:Fowler&fowler|<font color="#B8860B">Fowler&fowler</font>]][[User talk:Fowler&fowler|<font color="#708090">«Talk»</font>]] 13:02, 6 November 2013 (UTC) |
:You are attempting to do original research. :Doesn't make any difference whether the Indian government has his death certificate or not, or what the inquiry commissions concluded. Wikipedia is beholden only to secondary reliable sources. When such sources, authored by some of the best-known historians of the day: [[Christopher Bayly]], [[Stanley Wolpert]], [[Barbara D. Metcalf]], [[Thomas R. Metcalf]], [[Burton Stein]], and [[Sugata Bose]] say he died in August 1945, he died in August 1945. No amount of make-believe Wikipedia Pages or conspiracy theories will change that. [[User:Fowler&fowler|<font color="#B8860B">Fowler&fowler</font>]][[User talk:Fowler&fowler|<font color="#708090">«Talk»</font>]] 13:02, 6 November 2013 (UTC) |
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:(r to XrieJetInfo after ec) If you want to argue the case for mentioning alternate theories for Bose's death, you are welcome to do so here on the talk page and gain consensus. But [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Subhas_Chandra_Bose&diff=prev&oldid=580446270 this edit] in which you replaced references to history textbooks with link to a [http://www.rediff.com/news/2006/mar/17spec.htm rediff article] (which only summarizes what a random website says) was clearly sub-par. Also note that you are edit-warring and liable to breach the [[WP:3RR|three revert rule]] on the page. [[User:Abecedare|Abecedare]] ([[User talk:Abecedare|talk]]) 13:08, 6 November 2013 (UTC) |
Revision as of 13:08, 6 November 2013
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A thoroughly poor article that does not keep with encyclopedic principles and/or rules
A general comment here. This article is very poorly written and includes numerous statements that are opinion-based and/or subjective in nature. Furthermore, it appears that much of the article is written by contibutors whose first language is not English. There are numerous grammatical errors throughout the article. For those following this article, please work toward making it a more concise and fact-based description of this man's life. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.103.223.52 (talk) 16:48, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
In support of my general comment, here is an example of a statement that has no place in an encyclopedic article. Moreso considering that there is no citation whatsoever associated to it : "In all 3,000 Indian prisoners of war signed up for the Free India Legion. But instead of being delighted, Bose was worried. A left-wing admirer of Russia, he was devastated when Hitler's tanks rolled across the Soviet border"
These articles are meant to inform about basic facts not relay flowery narratives that are based on potentially biased or subjective views about a particular subject.
Proposal
Artistic depiction of Bose needs to culled and write just few lines stating that Bose was depicted In numerous films and books, similarly under the section Disappearance and alleged death there is a sub section called Books on the mystery, it looks like an advertisement of the book “ India’s biggest cover up” . Although the whole page needs a lot of clean up but I thought lets clean small things first. --sarvajna (talk) 11:44, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
Netaji rahasya sondhane
recently i have read one bengali book "Netaji rahasya sondhane" i.e "On search the mystery of Netaji" by Narayan Sanyal. Narayan Sanyal is a very famous writer in bengal and his book should be included in this article on Netaji as people who want to know about sudden disappearance of Netaji may find this book by Narayan Sanyal very interesting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.227.9.85 (talk) 14:52, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
Netaji Lives on
About this revert, the citation failed to support the information there and it was written like advertisement with the website link in article body. The revert has been re-reverted! It is requested not to add it back without reaching a consensus here! --Tito Dutta (contact) 14:43, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Clement Atlee's remark
Did not clement Attlee said effects of Netaji and INA were most important factors leading to india's independece? Who removed this from introduction system?Ovsek (talk) 04:48, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
- Most likely I did because they are WP:UNDUE. The current lead reflects the consensus of scholarly opinion on Bose. Incidentally, he is also dead, and not aged 116, living in Manchuria, preparing for this final march on Delhi. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:11, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
- Attlee's comment surely isn't undue enough to not exist in the complete article. I would agree to remove it from lead but keep it somewhere in the article. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 11:53, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
- You would have to source it first. There were four citations for that statement and not one of them supported the thing. - Sitush (talk) 12:04, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
- Sadly, the myth of Netaji—a disturbed man in a mid-life crisis (which Gandhi, Nehru, were quick to realize), with a secret wife and child in Germany that he didn't have the courage to tell any one about, with no military experience, and physically out of shape, politically all over the place, until 1938 espousing radical socialist views, but thereafter courting the Nazis, Fascists, and Imperial Japan, rounding up the defeated British Indian Army POWs, whose other option was File:Japanese shooting blindfolded Sikh prisoners.jpg, then presuming to fight the British who were stretched thin fighting a global war, and then getting walloped once the British army was replenished—lives on in India, especially in Bengal. In India it does, partly as a result of the resurgent Hindu right's effort to diminish Gandhi. In Bengal it does, because Bengalis are desperate to make out they contributed something to the independence struggle, which they didn't after CR Das in 1927. That is the plain blunt truth. The Attlee remark, which I just checked is not about Bose, but about the INA trials and the public protests after the sentencing of Shahnawaz Khan, Sehgal and others. It is based on a reminiscence by BK Chakravarti, former Governor of West Bengal, whom Attlee visited in the late 50s in Calcutta. It is not directly attributable to Attlee, not something Attlee wrote. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:55, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
- PS I mean, seriously, think about it: soldiers go to military academies, train their entire lives, fight in wars, rise in the ranks based on their performance, before they become generals in any legitimate army in the world. What were "Netaji" 's credentials? What army today would hire a 45 year old out of shape man with no military experience to lead it? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:09, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
- Sadly, the myth of Netaji—a disturbed man in a mid-life crisis (which Gandhi, Nehru, were quick to realize), with a secret wife and child in Germany that he didn't have the courage to tell any one about, with no military experience, and physically out of shape, politically all over the place, until 1938 espousing radical socialist views, but thereafter courting the Nazis, Fascists, and Imperial Japan, rounding up the defeated British Indian Army POWs, whose other option was File:Japanese shooting blindfolded Sikh prisoners.jpg, then presuming to fight the British who were stretched thin fighting a global war, and then getting walloped once the British army was replenished—lives on in India, especially in Bengal. In India it does, partly as a result of the resurgent Hindu right's effort to diminish Gandhi. In Bengal it does, because Bengalis are desperate to make out they contributed something to the independence struggle, which they didn't after CR Das in 1927. That is the plain blunt truth. The Attlee remark, which I just checked is not about Bose, but about the INA trials and the public protests after the sentencing of Shahnawaz Khan, Sehgal and others. It is based on a reminiscence by BK Chakravarti, former Governor of West Bengal, whom Attlee visited in the late 50s in Calcutta. It is not directly attributable to Attlee, not something Attlee wrote. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:55, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
- You would have to source it first. There were four citations for that statement and not one of them supported the thing. - Sitush (talk) 12:04, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
- Attlee's comment surely isn't undue enough to not exist in the complete article. I would agree to remove it from lead but keep it somewhere in the article. §§Dharmadhyaksha§§ {T/C} 11:53, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
And if you think it is just me, here is Chris Bayly:
There are still some in India today who believe that Bose remained alive and in Soviet custody, a once and future king of Indian independence. The legend of `Netaii' Bose's survival helped bind together the defeated INA. In Bengal it became an assurance of the province's supreme importance in the liberation of the motherland. It sustained the morale of many across India and Southeast Asia who deplored the return of British power or felt alienated from the political settlement finally achieved by Gandhi and Nehru.
Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:09, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
I agree that content must be kept in this article any where as well as British Government forbade BBC from broadcasting news of INA I am not going to argue that Netaji still lives, and other personal attacks on him made by an user, what he did despite many faults that invasion's impact was a success when news of INA spread all over India.
There are many more sources. No comment about Nehru a power monger, unrealistic thug. Netaji had basic training in Military. During WW1 he took military training in India as a student. @Fowler&fowler please instead of making stupid accusitions say "I am British so I am not willing to show respect to this man" it is nice. Charles De Gaulle exiled French leader made Free French Movement to free his country Netaji made INA to free India, what is wrong?
You prefer De Gaulle because he fought against Germans your enemy, Enemy's enemy is my enemy, ironically here you also follow the same strategy Netaji followed thus indicating that strategy is right.
http://asiancorrespondent.com/2250/netajis-ghost-the-freedom-struggle/
http://www.subhaschandrabose.org/bio.php Read a single book from here. I am much experienced about Wikipedia's anti-Indian freedom movement attitude with secretly dishonouring revolutionaries(mainly Netaji)as main aim and with Wikipedia's policy as excuse from British users and by Pakistani users to "prove" Pakistan was not part of India before 1947 and to ignore the fact that Pakistan resulted after 1947 partition. Thank you. I conclude.Ovsek (talk) 06:44, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
- Blog posts don't count. I know the source better than you do. It was a letter written in Bengali by the former Acting Governor of West Bengal PB Chakravarti to the publisher of R.C. Majumdar's Bangla Desher Itihas, Vol. IV on 30 March 1976, nine years after Attlee's death and when Majumdar himself was 88 years old (he died at 92). The facsimile of the letter was published in the appendix of Majumdar's Jībanera smṛtidīpe ("The light of my life's memories") (1978) when Majumdar was 90 years old, not in Majumdar's A History of the Freedom Movement in India (whose last edition before his death was printed in 1971). Like I said, the story is apocryphal, there is nothing to attest it, Attlee was long gone and Majumdar was in the last few years of his life. If it was such a bombshell story, why did Mr. Chakravari wait 20 years to tell it? It is an now an urban legend promoted by bloggers who have nothing better to do. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:42, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
- You seem to have gone off on a rant here. But thank you for the useful references. Majumdar being 90 should not be discounted because turning 90 doesn't imply diminished judgment. And questioning Chakravarti's motivations is conjecture on your part. Your opinions on Subhas Chandra Bose, Bengalis and bloggers aren't constructive; put them on your blog maybe. You should know better considering you're a senior editor. 66.162.75.2 (talk) 16:15, 5 November 2013 (UTC)Indradeep
- Blog posts don't count. I know the source better than you do. It was a letter written in Bengali by the former Acting Governor of West Bengal PB Chakravarti to the publisher of R.C. Majumdar's Bangla Desher Itihas, Vol. IV on 30 March 1976, nine years after Attlee's death and when Majumdar himself was 88 years old (he died at 92). The facsimile of the letter was published in the appendix of Majumdar's Jībanera smṛtidīpe ("The light of my life's memories") (1978) when Majumdar was 90 years old, not in Majumdar's A History of the Freedom Movement in India (whose last edition before his death was printed in 1971). Like I said, the story is apocryphal, there is nothing to attest it, Attlee was long gone and Majumdar was in the last few years of his life. If it was such a bombshell story, why did Mr. Chakravari wait 20 years to tell it? It is an now an urban legend promoted by bloggers who have nothing better to do. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:42, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
The Chakravarti letter is a primary source and can't be used per Wikipedia policy. The Majumdar reference is not a peer-reviewed history source, only a reminiscence. Decolonization, partition and World War II, are three of the most worked on fields of modern Indian and British history. It is hardly likely that Attlee, a post-war Labour PM, sympathetic to Gandhi, and committed to decolonization, would have said this to no one other than an acting governor of Bengal, in whose official residence he stayed for a couple of days as a visiting ex-PM of Britain in the late 1950s, and with whom he had no previous acquaintance. Attlee may have mentioned the British Army mutiny in 1945 (of some soldiers among the reinforcements brought in during WW2, who didn't want to stay on in India after the war), the INA trials, the naval mutiny in 1946, as reasons for hurrying decolonization after the war, and Mr. Chakravarti, no historian, either unwittingly misinterpreted what Attlee said, or deliberately finessed it to bolster his, and Bengal's, vanities about Netaji. Here's Attlee's remarks after Gandhi's death. Gandhi was not only the leading genius of the final 25-year long phase of India's nationalist movement, but one of the great men of the age. To suggest, that his contribution amounted to "not much," and then place it in the mouth of Clement Attlee, is both an insult to Gandhi and Attlee and to their admirers around the world. No reliable secondary source has paid any attention to Chakravarti. That is where the buck stops. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:18, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
- Fowler, your ranting about Bose is not required on this talk page, most of your statements are hypothetical (It is hardly likely that Attlee....Attlee may have mentioned....Mr. Chakravarti, no historian, either unwittingly misinterpreted). If we can use a source then let us use it, personal knowledge is a good thing but not of much use here. -sarvajna (talk) 21:30, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
The source being cited are pages 609-610 of R.C. Majumdar's History of the Freedom Movement in India, Volume III. It is to support the fact that Subhas Chandra Bose and his leadership of the INA did make a recognized contribution to India gaining independence. First, is the objection that the said text is not on those pages? If it is, then why can't it be cited as a source? Second, even if R.C. Majumdar did write it in his memoirs, which I assume is a separate book, why can that not be a source? It is not a work of fiction. Is it Wikipedia policy to bar autobiographies from being used as citable sources? Can the rest of R.C. Majumdar's works be cited? As to peer-review, Sugata Bose's book, cited as the source for Subhas Bose's date of death, isn't peer reviewed either. What is the difference between the two? There is no attempt here to discredit anyone else for their contributions.162.206.113.216 (talk) 03:30, 6 November 2013 (UTC)Indradeep
- Not just Sugata Bose's book, but Bayly and Harper, Bandopadhyay, Metcalf and Metcalf, Wolpert, Low, in fact the fist 10 footnotes attest to the fact that Bose died at the end of the war. We don't need Sugata Bose. What year was your vaunted source, History of the Freedom Movement, published? It's last edition before Majumdar's death was published in 1971. Chakravarti's letter was not written until in 1976. Your math is not adding up. This is my last response. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 05:17, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
Disappearance and date of death
The Indian government does not have any record to prove that Bose died on 18 August 1947. Even the Taiwan government deposed to the Mukherjee commission that no plane crash happened on 18 August 1945 that killed Bose. The posthumous Bharat Ratna awarded to Bose was later withdrawn by the Indian government because they did not have any evidence to suggest that Bose in fact died. In view of these, the death date of Bose cannot be established. Please check the article Disappearance of Subhas Chandra Bose for more details. -- XrieJetInfo (talk) 12:56, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- You are attempting to do original research. :Doesn't make any difference whether the Indian government has his death certificate or not, or what the inquiry commissions concluded. Wikipedia is beholden only to secondary reliable sources. When such sources, authored by some of the best-known historians of the day: Christopher Bayly, Stanley Wolpert, Barbara D. Metcalf, Thomas R. Metcalf, Burton Stein, and Sugata Bose say he died in August 1945, he died in August 1945. No amount of make-believe Wikipedia Pages or conspiracy theories will change that. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:02, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
- (r to XrieJetInfo after ec) If you want to argue the case for mentioning alternate theories for Bose's death, you are welcome to do so here on the talk page and gain consensus. But this edit in which you replaced references to history textbooks with link to a rediff article (which only summarizes what a random website says) was clearly sub-par. Also note that you are edit-warring and liable to breach the three revert rule on the page. Abecedare (talk) 13:08, 6 November 2013 (UTC)