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::::[[WP:OWNING]] the page is not the point. What I stated in the [[#Mass changes reverted]] section above and this one are the points. It is not for us to state "Milo Yiannopolous has achieved nothing compared to say [[Albert Einstein]]," and so his Wikipedia article should be relatively smaller. That is not how Wikipedia works. In terms of movies, for example, ''[[Battlefield Earth (film)|Battlefield Earth]]'' is a poor film and did poorly at the box office, but you still see the detail that article has gotten -- that it's bigger than some articles for films that are critically acclaimed or otherwise generally well-received by critics, such as ''[[Enemy (2013 film)|Enemy]].'' The Battlefield Earth (film) article currently has [[WP:Featured article]] status. Per [[WP:Preserve]], "''Fix problems if you can, flag or remove them if you can't.'' Preserve appropriate content. As long as any facts or ideas would belong in an encyclopedia, they should be [[WP:5P|retained in Wikipedia]]. ''[[Wikipedia:Wikipedia is an encyclopedia|Wikipedia is an encyclopedia.]]''" For whatever topic, it matters not that the facts or ideas have gotten more attention in the media or other literature than Wikipedia editors think they deserve. What matters is that we cover the material with the weight it deserves. Maybe [[User:BullRangifer|BullRangifer]] is willing to take a stab at what I mean. I'm all for material being cut due to being excessive or otherwise unnecessary (such as [[WP:DIARY]] issues), but not simply because editors feel that Yiannopoulos does not deserve to have an article as big as Albert Einstein's. [[WP:SIZE]] is a valid issue and is something we should look at, but keep in mind that WP:SIZE is about readable-prose size, and that a lot of subheadings can make an article look bigger than it actually is from the table of contents. You need to also keep in mind that [[WP:BLP]] applies to talk pages as well as to articles. So you should not be referring to Yiannopolous on this talk page by derogatory names. [[User:Flyer22 Reborn|Flyer22 Reborn]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Reborn|talk]]) 03:19, 23 December 2018 (UTC) |
::::[[WP:OWNING]] the page is not the point. What I stated in the [[#Mass changes reverted]] section above and this one are the points. It is not for us to state "Milo Yiannopolous has achieved nothing compared to say [[Albert Einstein]]," and so his Wikipedia article should be relatively smaller. That is not how Wikipedia works. In terms of movies, for example, ''[[Battlefield Earth (film)|Battlefield Earth]]'' is a poor film and did poorly at the box office, but you still see the detail that article has gotten -- that it's bigger than some articles for films that are critically acclaimed or otherwise generally well-received by critics, such as ''[[Enemy (2013 film)|Enemy]].'' The Battlefield Earth (film) article currently has [[WP:Featured article]] status. Per [[WP:Preserve]], "''Fix problems if you can, flag or remove them if you can't.'' Preserve appropriate content. As long as any facts or ideas would belong in an encyclopedia, they should be [[WP:5P|retained in Wikipedia]]. ''[[Wikipedia:Wikipedia is an encyclopedia|Wikipedia is an encyclopedia.]]''" For whatever topic, it matters not that the facts or ideas have gotten more attention in the media or other literature than Wikipedia editors think they deserve. What matters is that we cover the material with the weight it deserves. Maybe [[User:BullRangifer|BullRangifer]] is willing to take a stab at what I mean. I'm all for material being cut due to being excessive or otherwise unnecessary (such as [[WP:DIARY]] issues), but not simply because editors feel that Yiannopoulos does not deserve to have an article as big as Albert Einstein's. [[WP:SIZE]] is a valid issue and is something we should look at, but keep in mind that WP:SIZE is about readable-prose size, and that a lot of subheadings can make an article look bigger than it actually is from the table of contents. You need to also keep in mind that [[WP:BLP]] applies to talk pages as well as to articles. So you should not be referring to Yiannopolous on this talk page by derogatory names. [[User:Flyer22 Reborn|Flyer22 Reborn]] ([[User talk:Flyer22 Reborn|talk]]) 03:19, 23 December 2018 (UTC) |
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:::::Sure maybe the size thing is not that important, but read the page, it's full of trifling details that are clearly not worth mentioning, seriously undue weight is given to all sorts of irrelevancy - the fact is that Milo is not noteworthy for much other than making statements that annoy people, he is noteworthy enough for a page, but not a dissection of the minutia of his life, every failed business, every controversy. At a glance about half the article is either not worth mentioning or repeats assertions made elsewhere on the page. This page is written as though it's trying to present him in the worst possible light, so I don't understand why someone defending the content would be a sook about him being called a twat. I'm entitled to edit and I will, so you can quit running that line. Yes, Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia, it is not a [[WP:SOAP|Soap box]] nor is it for reporting [[WP:NOTNP|every thing some twit does]]. I know, lots of people get over zealous about pages they've edited, I've done it from time to time, but ideally one shouldn't. [[User:Bacondrum|Bacondrum]] ([[User talk:Bacondrum|talk]]) 05:03, 23 December 2018 (UTC) |
:::::Sure maybe the size thing is not that important, but read the page, it's full of trifling details that are clearly not worth mentioning, seriously undue weight is given to all sorts of irrelevancy - the fact is that Milo is not noteworthy for much other than making statements that annoy people, he is noteworthy enough for a page, but not a dissection of the minutia of his life, every failed business, every controversy. At a glance about half the article is either not worth mentioning or repeats assertions made elsewhere on the page. This page is written as though it's trying to present him in the worst possible light, so I don't understand why someone defending the content would be a sook about him being called a twat. I'm entitled to edit and I will, so you can quit running that line. Yes, Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia, it is not a [[WP:SOAP|Soap box]] nor is it for reporting [[WP:NOTNP|every thing some twit does]]. I know, lots of people get over zealous about pages they've edited, I've done it from time to time, but ideally one shouldn't. [[User:Bacondrum|Bacondrum]] ([[User talk:Bacondrum|talk]]) 05:03, 23 December 2018 (UTC) |
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The nature of Wikipedia is that it is based on notability standards, which make inclusive that which becomes media worthy and talked about. The size of the article does not reflect how important he is, but how much people are willing to get on board and edit his article combined with the availability of sources. People often point to the length of the article on lightsabers and compare it to articles which are shorter but more important from some other, usually academic, view point. The size of articles is not a gauge of their real world importance and there is no limit to the length of an article about a trivial subject, provided that sources exist to write about them. That being said you probably have grounds to trim some trivial details from the article, and [[wp:bold]] (or do it yourself) would be the policy which applies to that suggestion. Regarding some of the above. Civil (and blp) policies, which apply to talk pages advise against insulting or purely defamatory content, and as such it’s probably not a great idea to call the living subject of any article a little |
The nature of Wikipedia is that it is based on notability standards, which make inclusive that which becomes media worthy and talked about. The size of the article does not reflect how important he is, but how much people are willing to get on board and edit his article combined with the availability of sources. People often point to the length of the article on lightsabers and compare it to articles which are shorter but more important from some other, usually academic, view point. The size of articles is not a gauge of their real world importance and there is no limit to the length of an article about a trivial subject, provided that sources exist to write about them. That being said you probably have grounds to trim some trivial details from the article, and [[wp:bold]] (or do it yourself) would be the policy which applies to that suggestion. Regarding some of the above. Civil (and blp) policies, which apply to talk pages advise against insulting or purely defamatory content, and as such it’s probably not a great idea to call the living subject of any article a little... what ever it was you said. [[User:Edaham|Edaham]] ([[User talk:Edaham|talk]]) 07:32, 23 December 2018 (UTC) |
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::Fair enough, I didn't realise that twat was seen as offensive language (It's no more of a swear word than "bother" where I'm from), I'll avoid that in the future. I still believe the page is a mess, undue weight is given overall, it suffers from serious citation overkill, it just doesn't read like an encyclopedic entry, more like rolling news written by people with an axe to grind. [[User:Bacondrum|Bacondrum]] ([[User talk:Bacondrum|talk]]) 09:40, 23 December 2018 (UTC) |
::Fair enough, I didn't realise that twat was seen as offensive language (It's no more of a swear word than "bother" where I'm from), I'll avoid that in the future. I still believe the page is a mess, undue weight is given overall, it suffers from serious citation overkill, it just doesn't read like an encyclopedic entry, more like rolling news written by people with an axe to grind. [[User:Bacondrum|Bacondrum]] ([[User talk:Bacondrum|talk]]) 09:40, 23 December 2018 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 03:27, 24 December 2018
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![]() | A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on July 24, 2012. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that Milo Yiannopoulos arranged a moonwalking flash mob at Liverpool Street station as a tribute to Michael Jackson shortly after his death? |
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Haha? "Roused" NOT "Aroused" - These two words have completely different contemporary meanings
Apparently some Wikipedia editor thinks it's OK to use "haha. they're gay!" as an insult against people they dislike.
Under the section titled "Leaked Breitbart emails", on its second paragraph, it says "According to her, Yiannopoulos was getting the others "AROUSED".
The source says, "Then I had people get in my face. It might have been Milo because he didn't immediately go outside; he was kind of getting them ROUSED, and they were saying, 'Make America white again.'"
The meaning of the word is clearly apparent when read in context. No where does it say he was getting them "aroused". This is a blatant misquote, and the casual, everyday understanding of that word is almost always used in the context of sexual arousal. Rd3457 (talk) 15:02, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
Fixed - MrX 🖋 13:13, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you! :) Rd3457 (talk) 22:54, 4 December 2018 (UTC)
Neo-Nazism in lede
I would like to address the supposed long-standing consensus of treating the Buzzfeed report that Yiannopoulos was inspired by neo-Nazis and white nationalists as fact, specifically addressing Simonm223. Buzzfeed is not a reliable source. As you can see here, they were only factchecked once on Politifact, and the rating for their story was "Pants on Fire." Our own article on Buzzfeed makes clear here that it is widely seen as an unreliable source. So why are we treating their hit piece on Milo Yiannopoulos as fact? Display name 99 (talk) 15:11, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- We've been over this many times. No credible source has disputed the accuracy of the information leaked by Buzzfeed. There's no reason to doubt their reliability in this instance. Sorry, but Milo is a nazi. Simonm223 (talk) 15:31, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- Wow, your application of Wikipedia rules is pathetically weak. We are not permitted to rely on unreliable sources for controversial content, especially if it is for a WP:BLP. I've never found a clause anywhere in the Wikipedia guidelines that allows us to use controversial information from unreliable sources just because we can't find a reliable source which has disputed it. You're simply making crap up. I also find it remarkable that a gay Jewish Catholic guy legally married to a black man who has never criticized Jews or blacks, nor ever exalted the white race the way that people like Richard Spencer do, and has in fact repeatedly criticized actual neo-Nazis, is being called a Nazi. But I wouldn't really expect much better from a Marxist. Display name 99 (talk) 20:57, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- Buzzfeed and buzzfeed news are not the same. Buzzfeed is unreliable. BuzzfeedNews is Pulitzer nominated. BuzzFeed_NewsResultingConstant (talk) 15:38, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- A single reporter from Buzzfeed News was nominated for the Pulitzer Prize, not the organization itself. And the fact that it is owned by Buzzfeed suggests unreliability. Display name 99 (talk) 20:57, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
Here's an article from the (ultra-reliable) Guardian that discusses the subject’s affection for various Neo-Nazi stands, publications, and leaders. https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/dec/05/milo-yiannopoulos-speaks-australia-respectable-racists-howl-approval MarkBernstein (talk) 21:50, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- First of all, it's clearly an opinion piece. We have to distinguish between content that it is neutral and objective and things which are opinion-based. The NYT publishes opinion piece and he treat those different than regular articles. Also, while the article does confirm that he corresponded with some of them and in one instance was even complimentary of one, it makes no mention of whether he was inspired by them or that he solicited them for ideas. Display name 99 (talk) 22:04, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
Some additional examples:
- Milo Yiannopoulos filmed singing 'America the Beautiful' while white nationalists gave Nazi salutes (The Independent) https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/milo-yiannopoulos-nazi-salutes-video-karaoke-richard-spencer-white-nationalists-karaoke-bar-a7987486.html
- Milo Yiannopoulos 'sang karaoke to Nazi-saluting audience' (the Telegraph) https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/06/milo-yiannopolous-sang-karaoke-nazi-saluting-audience/
- Milo Yiannopoulos filmed singing as men gave Nazi salutes (The Times, London) https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/milo-yiannopoulos-filmed-singing-as-men-gave-nazi-salutes-pzmkgq5nh
- The far-right provocateur tells reporters he hopes angry conservatives start assassinating them, and the alt-right '14/88ers' love the idea. (SPLC Hatewatch) https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/06/27/milo-wants-vigilantes-start-killing-journalists-and-hes-not-being-ironic
I also believe you're mistaken about the reliability of Buzzfeed, but you're free to inquire at WP:RN. MarkBernstein (talk) 22:34, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- I don't see the point in you posting content that has nothing to do with the information that we're trying to verify, which is simply what's in the lead. We aren't hear to discuss whether or not Milo Yiannopoulos is a neo-Nazi. We're here to talk about whether his ideas were inspired by neo-Nazis and whether he has solicited their advice, which is what the Buzzfeed News article reported and what we have treated as fact. Buzzfeed News is listed as reliable at Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources/Perennial sources. However, that is only because it separated from Buzzfeed and became its own domain. It did so in July 2018. The Yiannopoulos article came out on October 5, 2017, when Buzzfeed News was still formally associated with Buzzfeed. Just click on the link to see how reliable a consensus of Wikipedia editors believe Buzzfeed is. Display name 99 (talk) 22:44, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Display name 99: Oh no, not another one of these arguments, please just stop it now, you are beating a dead horse that has been beaten quite a few times now. Regarding this page, you have made positive contributions so far, but given the previous discussions on this talk page (I assume you've read them and have seen that consensus on this issue has been reached a number of times now) to beat this horse again appears to be bordering on WP:NOTHERE. The argument has been had over and over, any attempt to play down the Nazi connection is a biased attempt at obfuscation of well known and well documented facts. On your user page you state that "Politically, my philosophy can be best described as a mix of paleoconservatism, the Christian right, Jacksonian democracy, and right-wing populism." so your politics clearly lean towards the conservative/right-wing aspects of Yiannopoulos. I would strongly advise you to refrain from editing pages relating to conservative or right wing politics, if you are incapable of stepping back from your own beliefs and bias, you may find it difficult approaching the subject from a WP:NPOV. I don't want my watch list filled with tendentious debates and or edits WP:TE. You've come here with your bias hanging out for all to see see, and that's good, thanks for being transparent about your political leanings, however trying to obscure the less socially acceptable facts about Yiannopoulos would be WP:ABIAS. The fact is that the only reason I've ever heard of Yiannopoulos is the Nazi thing, and the only things I've read about him regard his connections to Nazism and White nationalism, the anti Nazi protests etc...it is the only reason he is notable at all, it is the only reason anyone has ever heard of him - the ridiculous trolling and his connections to Nazism are the only things that get reported about him, he is only newsworthy because of his regurgitating extremist talking points and his connections to extremism. There are more than enough citations in the article that cover this (there's at least seven last I checked). With nearly every report on the man mentioning his connections to the extreme right, white nationalists and neo-Nazis, it would serve to obscure the facts if one was to pretend the connection isn't there. A brief web search will find a video of him singing America the Beautiful while neo-Nazi's, including neo-Nazi/white supremacist Richard B. Spencer, do the old Sieg Heil at a bar with several, you guessed it, neo-Nazi's. This debate has been had enough times, you're trying to obfuscate, at least one other editor that I know of has received an indefinite block after pursuing this route, you surely don't want to go there, again. The debate has been had, move on. Bacondrum (talk) 03:38, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Display name 99:Also, reliable, highly credible and widely respected publications re-published the claims in the Buzzfeed article, the Guardian, The New York Times, The Times, Forbes etc etc etc. They would not have published it if the original source material was unreliable. Time to put this silly debate to bed..."We aren't hear to discuss whether or not Milo Yiannopoulos is a neo-Nazi. We're here to talk about whether his ideas were inspired by neo-Nazis and whether he has solicited their advice, which is what the Buzzfeed News article reported and what we have treated as fact"...So, you don't think Nazi's are influenced by Nazism? Sheash! That's a very silly argument to say the least and it isn't logical at all. Bacondrum (talk) 07:30, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
- Bacondrum, there are several points that I would like to make. Firstly, I do not believe that editors with biases should be prevented from editing political articles so long as they do not have a history of tendentious editing and violating Wikipedia rules on this page, and I would say that neither is the case for me, although other editors are of course free to scrutinize. Secondly, the vast majority of Wikipedia articles are edited by left-wing contributors. Many such editors give strong indications of their political views on their userpages, as the editor who reverted me and later posted here has done. I would argue that many of these people fail to separate biases from editing and have in fact engaged in tendentious and forbidden editing patterns. But I don't see very many complaints for something to be done about them. I don't actually edit articles on modern politics as often as I do on other subjects, as you can see from my userpage, but when I do, I think I can act as an important check on those people.
- @Display name 99:Also, reliable, highly credible and widely respected publications re-published the claims in the Buzzfeed article, the Guardian, The New York Times, The Times, Forbes etc etc etc. They would not have published it if the original source material was unreliable. Time to put this silly debate to bed..."We aren't hear to discuss whether or not Milo Yiannopoulos is a neo-Nazi. We're here to talk about whether his ideas were inspired by neo-Nazis and whether he has solicited their advice, which is what the Buzzfeed News article reported and what we have treated as fact"...So, you don't think Nazi's are influenced by Nazism? Sheash! That's a very silly argument to say the least and it isn't logical at all. Bacondrum (talk) 07:30, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
In answer to your sources:
- Huffington Post. Seriously?
- The Forbes article supports the claim that Yiannopoulos and others solicited advice from neo-Nazis and white supremacists. But it does not support the idea that "Much of the work at Breitbart which brought Yiannopoulos to national attention was inspired by the ideas of neo-Nazis and white nationalists."
- The Guardian piece is an opinion article and should be treated accordingly.
- Southern Poverty Law Center is a leftist group that has controversially labelled a number of conservative groups as hate groups.
- The Times of Israel article documents a totally separate event and doesn't even mention the Buzzfeed incident. Once again, we aren't here to argue whether or not Milo Yiannopoulos is a neo-Nazi or a bad person. We're here to discuss whether the central claim of the paragraph-"Much of the work at Breitbart which brought Yiannopoulos to national attention was inspired by the ideas of neo-Nazis and white nationalists."-is supported by reliable sources.
- For the Dallas Observer article, again, a totally separate incident.
- The NY Daily News article also supports the claims that he communicated with white nationalists but does not say that a significant amount of his work was inspired them.
- Again, the America the Beautiful thing is not what this is about.
Basically, nobody has produced any reliable sources to support the idea that "Much of the work at Breitbart which brought Yiannopoulos to national attention was inspired by the ideas of neo-Nazis and white nationalists." Therefore, it should not be in the article. As for Nazis being inspired by Nazis, they most certainly are. But someone who is not a Nazi would likely not get much inspiration from them. Display name 99 (talk) 16:16, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Display name 99: Nonsense. Stop it. I'm not willing to waste anymore time pulling apart your rubbish claims, they've been made before and rebutted thoroughly before. You're beating a dead horse, your points are desperate at best. I know it's upsetting that your hero is connected to Nazism, maybe you should look for another hero. Like I said, if you are invested in conservative politics, perhaps you shouldn't edit conservative politics pages. If you keep on with it I'll report you for Wikipedia:Tendentious editing and WP:NOTHERE. No one wants to have this stupid argument, again.Bacondrum (talk) 22:38, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
- I mean, FFS!! You told another editor, and I quote: "I wouldn't really expect much better from a Marxist". I wont warn you again, you'll be reported if you keep it up.Bacondrum (talk) 22:38, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
- It is regrettable but not surprising that once the truth of the matter has been made clear-that what we say in the article is not supported by RS-you fail to recognize it and instead resort to threats. I see I have done all I can here, but somebody else will likely come along in a few months' time. Just a warning, you will continue to deal with disputes like this as long as you have this unsupported BLP-violating sentence in the lead. Display name 99 (talk) 22:18, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Display name 99: Absolute nonsense, the claim is supported by a huge number of RS, you just refuse to acknowledge some and completely ignore others, desperately clutching at straws - Calling a widely respected civil rights law firm like SPLC a leftist group is just affirming your bias, civil rights arn't left or right, unless you are some kind of extremist? You've made nothing clear, in fact it's obvious you are desperate to obfuscate. No hard feelings, mate. Bacondrum (talk) 22:39, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
- Bacondrum, now look who's refusing to let it go. All I'll say is that the SPLC has relied on prominent left-wing public figures to smear a large number of Traditional Catholic and conservative organizations with which they disagree by labelling them "hate groups." That's all. Display name 99 (talk) 23:10, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Display name 99: hahahaha, you haven't come here pushing an agenda at all...It's a leftist conspiracy!! Soon you'll be crying fake news!!! Keep it up mate. It'll help arbitrators to get a measure of just how tendentious you're being. Again, put the stick down don't edit pages you are emotionally and politically invested in, it's gonna end badly. Bacondrum (talk) 23:53, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
- Bacondrum, now look who's refusing to let it go. All I'll say is that the SPLC has relied on prominent left-wing public figures to smear a large number of Traditional Catholic and conservative organizations with which they disagree by labelling them "hate groups." That's all. Display name 99 (talk) 23:10, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Display name 99: Absolute nonsense, the claim is supported by a huge number of RS, you just refuse to acknowledge some and completely ignore others, desperately clutching at straws - Calling a widely respected civil rights law firm like SPLC a leftist group is just affirming your bias, civil rights arn't left or right, unless you are some kind of extremist? You've made nothing clear, in fact it's obvious you are desperate to obfuscate. No hard feelings, mate. Bacondrum (talk) 22:39, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
- It is regrettable but not surprising that once the truth of the matter has been made clear-that what we say in the article is not supported by RS-you fail to recognize it and instead resort to threats. I see I have done all I can here, but somebody else will likely come along in a few months' time. Just a warning, you will continue to deal with disputes like this as long as you have this unsupported BLP-violating sentence in the lead. Display name 99 (talk) 22:18, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
- I mean, FFS!! You told another editor, and I quote: "I wouldn't really expect much better from a Marxist". I wont warn you again, you'll be reported if you keep it up.Bacondrum (talk) 22:38, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Display name 99: Nonsense. Stop it. I'm not willing to waste anymore time pulling apart your rubbish claims, they've been made before and rebutted thoroughly before. You're beating a dead horse, your points are desperate at best. I know it's upsetting that your hero is connected to Nazism, maybe you should look for another hero. Like I said, if you are invested in conservative politics, perhaps you shouldn't edit conservative politics pages. If you keep on with it I'll report you for Wikipedia:Tendentious editing and WP:NOTHERE. No one wants to have this stupid argument, again.Bacondrum (talk) 22:38, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
Bacondrum, your edits don't make any sense. The specific apology that I added was not covered in the section up until then. All of the other comments from Yiannopoulos deal mostly with humor, but that is the most profound apology he gave, and I have to question whether your dislike for him influenced your decision to remove it in any way. As for the second part, you claimed that I added "the exact same text into another section." Take a look. The text is completely different. I also want to note that this article has a one-revert per 24 hour restriction and you're already past it. Please self-revert at least one of your two reverts or I will probably have to report it. Display name 99 (talk) 00:25, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Display name 99: So you're gonna add every apology he's ever made? That's not the purpose of Wikipedia, that is WP:NOTHERE. That's tendentious, trying to portray him in as positive light as possible. I care about accuracy, please be my guest and report. Then we really will be able to put this to bed. Bacondrum (talk) 02:22, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- Okay, so I checked and the apologies are different, so I apologise for the removal of the text "Concerning Donald Trump's decision to break from Barack Obama's practice of issuing a proclamation each year in honor of Gay Pride Month, Yiannopoulos said, "I don’t care about that. What I care about is the president protecting gay people from foreign policy, through strong borders, and stuff like that" under the assumption that it was repetitious. The first apology had been dicussed earlier in the section, and I still I feel these are tendentious edits, attempting to spin in a positive light, it's easy for people to say extreme thing and apologise afterwards, we're not here to run propaganda for the fella. Bacondrum (talk) 02:35, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- We're not here to run propaganda for him, just propaganda for the people who hate him and not allow an apology-the most sincere by far he has ever given-to be included in the text. That doesn't seem fair. We have all sorts of articles which include people making outrageous statements and then we quote their apologies afterwards and nobody seems to have a problem with it. It's sort of the standard thing that whenever somebody famous says something controversial, they usually apologize, and we cover both the original action or statement that triggered the apology (in greater detail) and the apology afterward. Yiannopoulos's first apology wasn't really much of an apology and this is pretty much the only one there is. There's no reason for not including it except to get rid of anything that might make him look less than an evil and reprehensible scoundrel. You've advised me to stay away from the article based off of what you interpret as support for Milo Yiannopoulos, but if you seriously dislike the guy so much that you can't be fair to him on his Wikipedia page, maybe it's time for you to take a step back. Display name 99 (talk) 03:13, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- Okay, I was over zealous on the apologies, I admit...mostly because you've displayed a clear and strong right-wing bias and you have a serious history of tendentious editing in this regard. We're all sick of tendentious editing on this page and the nonsense arguments about the veracity of the Nazi emails. Just be mindful of existing debates that have come to a close and consensus reached (numerous times) and be mindful to negate your inclinations and bias, please. Bacondrum (talk) 22:55, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- Very well. Because you admit to being over zealous on the apologies part, I'll go ahead and add that back in. I will likely continue editing the article in the future but unless brought up by somebody else in the future, will refrain from contesting the second paragraph in the lead despite strongly disagreeing with the way it is worded. Display name 99 (talk) 00:01, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
- Of course, I'm glad we could end that on a more sensible note. Thank you Bacondrum (talk) 00:15, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
- Very well. Because you admit to being over zealous on the apologies part, I'll go ahead and add that back in. I will likely continue editing the article in the future but unless brought up by somebody else in the future, will refrain from contesting the second paragraph in the lead despite strongly disagreeing with the way it is worded. Display name 99 (talk) 00:01, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
- Okay, I was over zealous on the apologies, I admit...mostly because you've displayed a clear and strong right-wing bias and you have a serious history of tendentious editing in this regard. We're all sick of tendentious editing on this page and the nonsense arguments about the veracity of the Nazi emails. Just be mindful of existing debates that have come to a close and consensus reached (numerous times) and be mindful to negate your inclinations and bias, please. Bacondrum (talk) 22:55, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- We're not here to run propaganda for him, just propaganda for the people who hate him and not allow an apology-the most sincere by far he has ever given-to be included in the text. That doesn't seem fair. We have all sorts of articles which include people making outrageous statements and then we quote their apologies afterwards and nobody seems to have a problem with it. It's sort of the standard thing that whenever somebody famous says something controversial, they usually apologize, and we cover both the original action or statement that triggered the apology (in greater detail) and the apology afterward. Yiannopoulos's first apology wasn't really much of an apology and this is pretty much the only one there is. There's no reason for not including it except to get rid of anything that might make him look less than an evil and reprehensible scoundrel. You've advised me to stay away from the article based off of what you interpret as support for Milo Yiannopoulos, but if you seriously dislike the guy so much that you can't be fair to him on his Wikipedia page, maybe it's time for you to take a step back. Display name 99 (talk) 03:13, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
- Okay, so I checked and the apologies are different, so I apologise for the removal of the text "Concerning Donald Trump's decision to break from Barack Obama's practice of issuing a proclamation each year in honor of Gay Pride Month, Yiannopoulos said, "I don’t care about that. What I care about is the president protecting gay people from foreign policy, through strong borders, and stuff like that" under the assumption that it was repetitious. The first apology had been dicussed earlier in the section, and I still I feel these are tendentious edits, attempting to spin in a positive light, it's easy for people to say extreme thing and apologise afterwards, we're not here to run propaganda for the fella. Bacondrum (talk) 02:35, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
Citations are a dogs breakfast
The citations on this page are completely off the wall. I gave the lede, early life, the first few paragraphs of his career and some other random sections a serious clean and it was just plain crazy - lots of mindless repetition of citations, heaps of assertions with piles and piles of citations, but not a single one that actually mentions the assertion they are referencing. Fixing this mess will take a heap of time, which most people don't have. If anyone feels like helping go through all this insanity it'd be greatly appreciated. Otherwise we could rewrite and cite some of the worst offending sections from scratch as some sections may just be too much of a dogs breakfast to even attempt to fix. Bacondrum (talk) 02:54, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
Mass changes reverted
Bacondrum, I reverted your mass changes. Take note that this is a controversial article and many things have been worked out. All of that is why the article currently has the WP:Discretionary sanctions notice -- Template:Editnotices/Page/Milo Yiannopoulos -- which states, in part, "You must not make more than one revert per 24 hours to this article. You must not reinstate any challenged (via reversion) edits without obtaining consensus on the talk page of this article."
I have challenged your changes. So do not revert them. Regarding what I have challenged... The lead, for example, is supposed to summarize the article per WP:Lead. So it should not be as short as you made it. Regarding excessive citations, well, I agree that we should not engage in citation overkill...unless three sources are needed or unless the several bundled sources are needed. We can see here that you added a number of sources yourself.
Explain on this talk page what changes you are looking to make and why. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:58, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
- Flyer22 Reborn G'day, thanks for your contribution. In my opinion the lede is way too long, it comes off as an attempt to display the subject in the most negative light possible (the fact that Yianoppolous is a disgusting low life speaks for itself, we don't need to run a line or to frame it a certain way). I disagree that "many things have been worked out", very little has been worked out, I'm all for working out a consensus and I think the general gist of the lede is correct, but it needs to be worked on so it reads like an encyclopedia rather than an anti-nazi blog. Overall the content that is needed is there, but the page is all over the shop, many citations don't correspond to assertions, assertions are repeated etc etc etc, it's a really shitty page. The page on the whole is one of the worst I've seen, a dogs breakfast at best. The citations are a disgrace, it looks like it was cited by a first year humanities student who was coming down off acid. I respectfully, but strongly disagree that the lede should remain as is, but accept you reversion as being done in good faith (again, I think the man is vile...I just want the page to be well written and presented). So, what do we do now? get a third opinion? Obviously the citations need fixing, so I'm restoring the essential changes made there, they are a massive improvement by any measure, there's no argument to keep unrelated, repeated and unreliable sources. Cheers mate Bacondrum (talk) 03:31, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
- I don't know where you get the idea for such a short lead, but that's not true. Study the subject a bit more. Here's a good essay on creating a good lead: How to create and manage a good lead section (essay) -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 04:08, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
- BullRangifer I don't know where I got that idea from either, apologies. The citations however are a complete mess and definitely need a lot of work.
- At least some of Bacondrum edits were improvements. We should remove unreliable sources, but we also shouldn't add unreliable source like this [1]. To Bacondrum's credit, it was subsequently removed here [2], but then it was re-added here [3]. Forbes contributor content is not reliable for BLPs, if anything. I'm not sure why this was removed [4]. This is good [5] (The Root is not a reliable source for BLPs.) This is an improvement [6]. We can't use Wikipedia to call people homophobes. I generally don't agree with bulk-removing source like this [7] or this [8].- MrX 🖋 13:11, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, I can totally see what you're saying, sorry if my editing was a bit confusing. The refs were such a dogs breakfast that I may have made a few mistakes, just trying to get the refs to resemble something manageable and reasonable.Bacondrum (talk) 21:17, 22 December 2018 (UTC) - At the end of the day I think the whole thing is messy and repeats itself. It needs to be made more succinct, the lead seems to go into too much detail when compared to pages about far more noteworthy individuals and the citations are all over the shop. Bacondrum (talk) 21:22, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
- Some of your edits were improvements, but, per what I stated above, mass changes are not the way to go for this article. You can disagree that "many things have been worked out," but you are wrong on that, as the archives show. We don't remove things because we don't like it. We remove things based on Wikipedia's rules. And Wikipedia's rules about the lead, for example, are clear. There is no way that we should have a lead as short as your version. That the lead consists of controversial things is simply a reflection of the article/topic. Regarding what MrX stated, I'm not sure about use of The Root (although I'm aware of the publication and have seen it used in Wikipedia articles about black people), but MrX is a solid editor whose opinions are always worth considering. Same goes for BullRangifer. All I'm asking is that you take care not to engage in mass changes, and that you first seek WP:Consensus here on the talk page for changes that are likely to be contested. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:10, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks, I appreciate what you're saying, but you've no right or reason to ask me to restrict my editing, I've broken no rules what-so-ever - I was bold, you reverted, now we are discussing - I edit in good faith and unlike your good self I have never been blocked for breaking the rules, I don't intend to break the rules and I don't rubbish Wikipedia or other editors work on my user page, like you do....be bold, revert, debate - that's exactly how it works, you don't own the page, so don't talk like you have any authority over it. I act in good faith and I'm not breaking any rules, so suck it up. Bacondrum (talk) 09:18, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
- Some of your edits were improvements, but, per what I stated above, mass changes are not the way to go for this article. You can disagree that "many things have been worked out," but you are wrong on that, as the archives show. We don't remove things because we don't like it. We remove things based on Wikipedia's rules. And Wikipedia's rules about the lead, for example, are clear. There is no way that we should have a lead as short as your version. That the lead consists of controversial things is simply a reflection of the article/topic. Regarding what MrX stated, I'm not sure about use of The Root (although I'm aware of the publication and have seen it used in Wikipedia articles about black people), but MrX is a solid editor whose opinions are always worth considering. Same goes for BullRangifer. All I'm asking is that you take care not to engage in mass changes, and that you first seek WP:Consensus here on the talk page for changes that are likely to be contested. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:10, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, I can totally see what you're saying, sorry if my editing was a bit confusing. The refs were such a dogs breakfast that I may have made a few mistakes, just trying to get the refs to resemble something manageable and reasonable.Bacondrum (talk) 21:17, 22 December 2018 (UTC) - At the end of the day I think the whole thing is messy and repeats itself. It needs to be made more succinct, the lead seems to go into too much detail when compared to pages about far more noteworthy individuals and the citations are all over the shop. Bacondrum (talk) 21:22, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
- At least some of Bacondrum edits were improvements. We should remove unreliable sources, but we also shouldn't add unreliable source like this [1]. To Bacondrum's credit, it was subsequently removed here [2], but then it was re-added here [3]. Forbes contributor content is not reliable for BLPs, if anything. I'm not sure why this was removed [4]. This is good [5] (The Root is not a reliable source for BLPs.) This is an improvement [6]. We can't use Wikipedia to call people homophobes. I generally don't agree with bulk-removing source like this [7] or this [8].- MrX 🖋 13:11, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
- BullRangifer I don't know where I got that idea from either, apologies. The citations however are a complete mess and definitely need a lot of work.
- I don't know where you get the idea for such a short lead, but that's not true. Study the subject a bit more. Here's a good essay on creating a good lead: How to create and manage a good lead section (essay) -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 04:08, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
The article is way too long for a person whom history will likely forget in a few years
This article is excessively long by at least 50%. It goes into excruciating detail and direct quotes, which seem intended to shame the subject with his own deeds and words. The unintended effect is that it puts this has-been (my opinion) on a pedestal with along with other notable people. The world is already forgetting about this self-professed troll, and in a few years, his life will not even be a footnote in history. I think we need to consider seriously trimming the article down to a concise summary of the noteworthy aspects of his life, and leave the details of his self-promoting ideological trolling to the tabloids and the Gizmodo-esqu press. - MrX 🖋 13:47, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
- I agree wholeheartedly, definitely noteworthy enough for a page, but the level of detail, it really does seem undue to me. It's like a rolling report by people trying to expose what a nasty little man he is...and he is a nasty little man, but this is not what Wikipedia is for. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_newspaper Bacondrum (talk) 21:11, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
- Regardless of how we personally feel about the subject, we should be as impartial as we can be and give the topics regarding this person their WP:Due weight. There are editors who feel that some of our Wikipedia articles on Internet celebrities are excessive and that those celebrities aren't worth our time. But that's not how Wikipedia is supposed to work. Yes, we should avoid WP:Recentism, and there is material in this article that can be cut or downsized, but we shouldn't be editing as though we own a crystal ball regarding this person's noteworthiness or relevance. Instead of Bacondrum or others just cutting whatever they/we want, I suggest we propose cuts on this talk page. We can also work on a different version of the article in a sandbox and then propose that it replace the current version. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:22, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
- Absolutely work towards consensus, but anyone can make good faith edits, that's how it works, no one owns the page. Milo Yiannopolous has achieved nothing compared to say Albert Einstein who's page is of comparable length, they are clearly not comparable in history's page - the amount of detail is absolutely giving undue weight, every little stupid venture, every failed attempt at council elections etc do not warrant mentioning, not even a sentence, perhaps in decades to come he will be more noteworthy, but now he is not much more than a loud mouth twat. I only mention that I think the guy is a creep so you understand I'm not trying to change the article to be less critical, but actually to read and feel encyclopedic, at the moment it feels like someone who hates him has been writing it. It really is a shocker of a page and I'm sure we can agree it needs a lot of work. More than happy to work on consensus to get there, but it can't stay as is. Yes, work on a consensus, but that can definitely involve being bold WP:BOLD, the page doesn't cut the mustard on the whole. I'm free to edit and be bold, I've acted 100% in good faith, no one owns the page. Bacondrum (talk) 01:48, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
- WP:OWNING the page is not the point. What I stated in the #Mass changes reverted section above and this one are the points. It is not for us to state "Milo Yiannopolous has achieved nothing compared to say Albert Einstein," and so his Wikipedia article should be relatively smaller. That is not how Wikipedia works. In terms of movies, for example, Battlefield Earth is a poor film and did poorly at the box office, but you still see the detail that article has gotten -- that it's bigger than some articles for films that are critically acclaimed or otherwise generally well-received by critics, such as Enemy. The Battlefield Earth (film) article currently has WP:Featured article status. Per WP:Preserve, "Fix problems if you can, flag or remove them if you can't. Preserve appropriate content. As long as any facts or ideas would belong in an encyclopedia, they should be retained in Wikipedia. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia." For whatever topic, it matters not that the facts or ideas have gotten more attention in the media or other literature than Wikipedia editors think they deserve. What matters is that we cover the material with the weight it deserves. Maybe BullRangifer is willing to take a stab at what I mean. I'm all for material being cut due to being excessive or otherwise unnecessary (such as WP:DIARY issues), but not simply because editors feel that Yiannopoulos does not deserve to have an article as big as Albert Einstein's. WP:SIZE is a valid issue and is something we should look at, but keep in mind that WP:SIZE is about readable-prose size, and that a lot of subheadings can make an article look bigger than it actually is from the table of contents. You need to also keep in mind that WP:BLP applies to talk pages as well as to articles. So you should not be referring to Yiannopolous on this talk page by derogatory names. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:19, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
- Sure maybe the size thing is not that important, but read the page, it's full of trifling details that are clearly not worth mentioning, seriously undue weight is given to all sorts of irrelevancy - the fact is that Milo is not noteworthy for much other than making statements that annoy people, he is noteworthy enough for a page, but not a dissection of the minutia of his life, every failed business, every controversy. At a glance about half the article is either not worth mentioning or repeats assertions made elsewhere on the page. This page is written as though it's trying to present him in the worst possible light, so I don't understand why someone defending the content would be a sook about him being called a twat. I'm entitled to edit and I will, so you can quit running that line. Yes, Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia, it is not a Soap box nor is it for reporting every thing some twit does. I know, lots of people get over zealous about pages they've edited, I've done it from time to time, but ideally one shouldn't. Bacondrum (talk) 05:03, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
- WP:OWNING the page is not the point. What I stated in the #Mass changes reverted section above and this one are the points. It is not for us to state "Milo Yiannopolous has achieved nothing compared to say Albert Einstein," and so his Wikipedia article should be relatively smaller. That is not how Wikipedia works. In terms of movies, for example, Battlefield Earth is a poor film and did poorly at the box office, but you still see the detail that article has gotten -- that it's bigger than some articles for films that are critically acclaimed or otherwise generally well-received by critics, such as Enemy. The Battlefield Earth (film) article currently has WP:Featured article status. Per WP:Preserve, "Fix problems if you can, flag or remove them if you can't. Preserve appropriate content. As long as any facts or ideas would belong in an encyclopedia, they should be retained in Wikipedia. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia." For whatever topic, it matters not that the facts or ideas have gotten more attention in the media or other literature than Wikipedia editors think they deserve. What matters is that we cover the material with the weight it deserves. Maybe BullRangifer is willing to take a stab at what I mean. I'm all for material being cut due to being excessive or otherwise unnecessary (such as WP:DIARY issues), but not simply because editors feel that Yiannopoulos does not deserve to have an article as big as Albert Einstein's. WP:SIZE is a valid issue and is something we should look at, but keep in mind that WP:SIZE is about readable-prose size, and that a lot of subheadings can make an article look bigger than it actually is from the table of contents. You need to also keep in mind that WP:BLP applies to talk pages as well as to articles. So you should not be referring to Yiannopolous on this talk page by derogatory names. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:19, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
- Absolutely work towards consensus, but anyone can make good faith edits, that's how it works, no one owns the page. Milo Yiannopolous has achieved nothing compared to say Albert Einstein who's page is of comparable length, they are clearly not comparable in history's page - the amount of detail is absolutely giving undue weight, every little stupid venture, every failed attempt at council elections etc do not warrant mentioning, not even a sentence, perhaps in decades to come he will be more noteworthy, but now he is not much more than a loud mouth twat. I only mention that I think the guy is a creep so you understand I'm not trying to change the article to be less critical, but actually to read and feel encyclopedic, at the moment it feels like someone who hates him has been writing it. It really is a shocker of a page and I'm sure we can agree it needs a lot of work. More than happy to work on consensus to get there, but it can't stay as is. Yes, work on a consensus, but that can definitely involve being bold WP:BOLD, the page doesn't cut the mustard on the whole. I'm free to edit and be bold, I've acted 100% in good faith, no one owns the page. Bacondrum (talk) 01:48, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
- Regardless of how we personally feel about the subject, we should be as impartial as we can be and give the topics regarding this person their WP:Due weight. There are editors who feel that some of our Wikipedia articles on Internet celebrities are excessive and that those celebrities aren't worth our time. But that's not how Wikipedia is supposed to work. Yes, we should avoid WP:Recentism, and there is material in this article that can be cut or downsized, but we shouldn't be editing as though we own a crystal ball regarding this person's noteworthiness or relevance. Instead of Bacondrum or others just cutting whatever they/we want, I suggest we propose cuts on this talk page. We can also work on a different version of the article in a sandbox and then propose that it replace the current version. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:22, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
The nature of Wikipedia is that it is based on notability standards, which make inclusive that which becomes media worthy and talked about. The size of the article does not reflect how important he is, but how much people are willing to get on board and edit his article combined with the availability of sources. People often point to the length of the article on lightsabers and compare it to articles which are shorter but more important from some other, usually academic, view point. The size of articles is not a gauge of their real world importance and there is no limit to the length of an article about a trivial subject, provided that sources exist to write about them. That being said you probably have grounds to trim some trivial details from the article, and wp:bold (or do it yourself) would be the policy which applies to that suggestion. Regarding some of the above. Civil (and blp) policies, which apply to talk pages advise against insulting or purely defamatory content, and as such it’s probably not a great idea to call the living subject of any article a little... what ever it was you said. Edaham (talk) 07:32, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
- Fair enough, I didn't realise that twat was seen as offensive language (It's no more of a swear word than "bother" where I'm from), I'll avoid that in the future. I still believe the page is a mess, undue weight is given overall, it suffers from serious citation overkill, it just doesn't read like an encyclopedic entry, more like rolling news written by people with an axe to grind. Bacondrum (talk) 09:40, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
"The world is already forgetting about this self-professed troll, and in a few years, his life will not even be a footnote in history. "
May I remind you something? Wikipedia is not a crystal ball: "Wikipedia is not a collection of unverifiable speculation or presumptions. Wikipedia does not predict the future." Dimadick (talk) 09:03, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
- Fair enough, but it's also not meant to be a rolling news commentary on every little thing the fella does. Bacondrum (talk) 09:20, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
Okay, that's not getting anywhere
Can we move on from that matter for a minute and at least work out the citations? Surely we can agree that they need work? On my reading of the rules around citations there are a significant number of unreliable sources, and it is suffering from a massive citation overkill. Can we agree to work on the citations and improve them, and remove claims that rely on unreliable sources? Bacondrum (talk) 09:28, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
- Here are my nominations for sources that should be removed as inferior for BLP purposes. If material relies soley on these sources, it should be removed as well:
- Recode
- Pinknews
- Rise: MiamiNews
- Forbes contributor content (forbes.com/sites/)(See WP:RSP#Forbes contributors)
- BuzzFeed (This is borderline source. Context matters)
- The Daily Caller
- Boing Boing
- The Blaze
- teleSUR
- The Stranger (?)
- GamePolitics.com
- Metro
- The Tab
- Salon
- The American Conservative
- - MrX 🖋 14:31, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you, if you haven't done them all already I'll get into it. Bacondrum (talk) 21:39, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
- I've removed them all, except two Buzzfeed articles due to context. There's still a lot of undue detail and the citations still need a fair bit of work - from a glance a significant number of citations don't actually reflect what is written on the page, but sorting that out is a more time consuming job. Thanks you. Bacondrum (talk) 23:45, 23 December 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you, if you haven't done them all already I'll get into it. Bacondrum (talk) 21:39, 23 December 2018 (UTC)