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The following discussion is an archived debate of the article "Northern Irish People." Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made below this box. No further edits should be made to the discussion in this box.
Yes they did. They rejected the term by picking another. The term is a Unionist invention, and even the majority of Unionists reject it apart from sectarian hatemongers. One Night In Hackney30320:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Do you know anything about research? When you present a person with 5 options and tell them to pick the one that "best describes the way you think of yourself", you are asking people to make a value judgment on a range of options, not a zero sum decision. Your analysis is fundamentally flawed.Traditional unionist (talk) 20:47, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Weaslry. You're attempting to extract something from those results that simply aren't there. The respondents stated a PREFERENCE for one option. They did not express any kind of opinion one way or another on the rest.Traditional unionist (talk) 15:22, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I was been nice and casual, and simply saying the term is used as a cop out, and therefore BS. Now what’s uncivil about that? Would you describe yourself as "Northern" Irish? If you do, well then I will apologise for offending your sensibilities. I just can not get my head round why Irish Unionists need a geographical indicator to illustrate or designate their political views when simply ask their nationality. --Domer48 (talk) 21:05, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
TU I was not talking about you, jez, are you going to pull me up now on everything? It was rejected, what more do you want? --Domer48 (talk) 21:10, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And what did I say directly after that? "If you do, well then I will apologise for offending your sensibilities." Please. --Domer48 (talk) 21:20, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Because England, Scotland and Wales are seperate Nations but Northern Ireland isn't one. Plus it is a Unionist attempt to try and create a seperate identity for themselves rather them accept they are Irish. In Northern Ireland not all people regard themselves as British, something recognised in the GFA, they are either British, Irish or both.--Padraig (talk) 21:30, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Looking at the actual content of the page, whats the problem? Its a disambiguation page that does not claim there is an "ethnic" group of Northern Irish people. Which of course is a dubious claim about any inhabitants of the British isles.Traditional unionist (talk) 15:11, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please remain civil or you will be reported and blocked. You are also missing the fact that as this page was created at all challenges the previous consensus. Ergo there is NO consensus, and you are making edits on a fictional one.Traditional unionist (talk) 18:28, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
By reverting to a version that's been disputed two minutes since it was created?! Now, would you actually like to address the question? What was wrong with the article I redirected to, or were you just edit warring without even checking? One Night In Hackney30318:37, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, please read WP:ASSUME. You are also not seeing the wood for the trees. There is NO consensus whatsoever about this article. Therefore any accusations of edit warring should be directed elsewhere.Traditional unionist (talk) 18:39, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why can't you answer a question about the merits of the redirect? It's a simple question. I'm trying to progress with a discussion here, yet you are constantly being evasive and refusing to discuss. One Night In Hackney30318:49, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
With respect, you're not asking about the merits of your edit, you're asking why I reverted it. And I have answered that question twice. If you are now asking what I think of your two redirects, I think they are flawed. There is no solid argument yet presented that the current disambiguation page should be changed. Perhaps it needed a little expansion, but to remove it smacks of WP:POINT, as illustrated by Padraig's reason for wanting it moved.Traditional unionist (talk) 18:53, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please remain civil or you will be reported and blocked. Is it not true that the wikiepdians active in this discussion who dispute the opening sentence have identified themselves as nationalist?Traditional unionist (talk) 19:38, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I cant see where you gave a direct answer to the question asked by ONiH and seeing as you just keep answering with links have a read of this one WP:AAGF. BigDunc (talk) 19:39, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
True as it may be that N. Irish is not a real nationality I think the page should exist for convenience and to disambiguate between British people. I see Scottish people exists, yet N.I. has been a devolved entity for longer (in recent years!); i.e. more legitimately an independent state. Those from N.I. are definitely not Irish; they are British; but that term is, in my opinion, too vague. Counter-revolutionary (talk) 20:01, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
People from N Ireland are not British unless they choose to be, they are firstly Irish, just as the English, Scottish and Welsh retain their on National identity.--Padraig (talk) 20:08, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That not being a sovereign state, clearly not. But as the polling evidence shows, a sizable and cross community chunk of people identify as Northern Irish. Aside from which the term is a demonynm.Traditional unionist (talk) 20:30, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Which is of no relevance in any case. If we were to have only articles such as this on national identities that carry individual citizenship, we'd have a large AFD backlog. That is no point at all.Traditional unionist (talk) 21:00, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Things are happening fast here. First a disambiguous article was created, now it's become a re-direct. The pace is breathless. GoodDay (talk) 20:55, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I want to open this up again. There are claims above of concensus. Clearly, there is none. It seems to me there are some options. Firstly the page redirected for more than 6 months to Northern Ireland. That is imperfect, but as the edit summary reflects, it is more meaningful. Secondly the disambag page could be restored - this reflects the concensus of the AFD by not asserting there is an "ethnic" group of Northern Irish (which, like the rest of the British Isles, there isn't). Personally I don't mind either of those two.Traditional unionist (talk) 12:55, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Irish People article deals with the whole island, not just the state, to include the Unionist/Protestant tradition and its prevalence in Ulster, influence on the United States etc. The article deals fairly with all ethnic groups in Ireland, to include minorites such as Ulster Protestants and the travelling community. Perhaps your needs could be better serviced by ensuring that the Ulster Protestant people are sufficiently acknowledged in the British people article. Windyjarhead (talk) 19:53, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm surprised this debate is happening. OK, I understand the dynamics behind what's going on and what's at stake here, but surely a disambiguation is a "third way" option - leaving opinion open to our readers, rather than our editors. --Jza84 | Talk 22:27, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The debate is going on because, like everything involving identity in Northern Ireland, this issue is complicated. Historically, the people of Northern Ireland have self-idntified as "Irish", "British" or "Ulster." Importantly, these are not always mutually-exclusive terms. One can be Irish and British or an Ulsterman and an Irishman or Ulsterman and British etc. To classify someone as "Northern Irish" is not only faulty as a neologism, it also disregards most people's preferred label of self-identification, usually Irish or British.
I would not object so strenuously if the article were titled "People of Northern Ireland" because it then implies a matter of geographical happenstance, not one of identity. Windyjarhead (talk) 23:34, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My point was it wouldn't be an article, it's be a disambiguation page. It currently points to Irish people, which, I imagine, is problematic for obvious reasons. --Jza84 | Talk 00:08, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Why is that problematic? Northern Ireland is part of Ireland. The people of Ireland are Irish.
It's a geographical truth, just as France is part of Europe and the people of Europe are Europeans. They may also be French and Parisians or Bretons etc, but they are undeniably European. The analogy applies and the logic is sound. Windyjarhead (talk) 00:30, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would make an argument that the people of Britain are British, not the people of the United Kingdom, but I don't want to open that can of semantic worms. Nevertheless, the people of Northern Ireland are British, or Irish or both. But certainly not "Northern Irish." Britain and Ireland have both existed for centuries, "Northern Ireland" was dreamt up by drawing a line on a map in 1922 and its existence and legitimacy have been questioned ever since. Windyjarhead (talk) 01:42, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
--Windy. You need to come from a more NPOV. Your argument is based on preference and perspective, not the reality of the situation. The legitimacy of Northern Ireland's partition isn't questioned at all - it's not a disputed territory. Simillarly, the people of Northern Ireland can hold British nationality, play for the Great Britain Olympic Team and have full protection under British nationality law. On the more anecdotal side of things, I have "Northern Irish" roots; believe me, they were British. --Jza84 | Talk 10:23, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're constructing an argument based on two assumptions. Firstly that Northern Irish is a rejected term - that is false as evidenced by repeated market research, the most recent of which is linked in the above discussion. Second that Northern Irish can only refer to identity, which isn't true either. In political geography it is a perfectly acceptable term. I don't see what was wrong with the disamg page that was here before.Traditional unionist (talk) 08:57, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Three things, I presume, can be acceted by all - (1)Northern Ireland is a real place that actually exists (2) there are people who live there and (3) this article is meant to address those people.
I will not agree, however, that those people are "Northern Irish." Somebody from Donegal has more claim to being "Northern Irish" than somebody from Armagh. Accoring to my dictionary, the term "Northern Ireland" can be used as an adjective, just as "West of Ireland" can, for example, my uncle in Connemara might be described as a "West of Ireland man" who speaks with a "West of Ireland accent."
Windy, what myself and TraditionalUnionist (I believe) are proposing is that this does not become an article, but a disambiguation page-- there is a distinct difference. People are going to look for "Northern Irish people" for a link, or explanation, what we're saying is that the reader should get to choose what that definition entails, and pipe accordingly. --Jza84 | Talk 17:08, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I see an enormous potential for further sectarian bickering in that scenario. But, In the interest of compromise, how about this: "Northern Irish People" as a redirect page to "Northern Ireland People" which would be a disambiguation. Windyjarhead (talk) 17:26, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, "Northern Irish People" as a redirect to "People of Northern Ireland" as a disambig then. What I'm afraid of here is people like Mary McAleese and Brian Dooher and countless others being described as "Northern Irish" when they are unequivocally Irish, and happen to be from Northern Ireland. I cannot allow them to be portrayed as second-class Irish people or unequal inheritors of Irish identity, simply on the basis of partition.
Comments like "I cannot allow them to be portrayed as second-class Irish people or unequal inheritors of Irish identity, simply on the basis of partition." stink of bias and personal preference, and don't help futher your aim.
Under the Belfast Agreement, the Union of Northern Ireland with the UK has been internationally recognised; the Republic of Ireland has formally abolished its territorial claim to the province; it guarantees the "recognition of the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose."
People can choose what they like - they can be ethnically Mancunian if they desire. I'm not sure what the logic is for this "compromise" you ask for. A quick Google search shows that "Northern Irish people" has widespread use outside of Wikipedia. --Jza84 | Talk 20:53, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So, your response is "Not one inch". Lovely. And for the record, I make no secret of my bias. Irish republicanism is clearly stated as one of my biases on my userpage - full disclosure.
Let me ask this clearly then; what is your objection to naming the page "People of Northern Ireland"? As far as I can tell, it's politically-neutral and means basically the same thing, without the identity-politics connotations.
Also for the record, your suggested quick google search of "Northern Irish people" revealed in the top ten links: 3 to wikimedia sites, 2 to NORAID, 2 that merely had both the phrase "Northern Irish" and "Irish people", a youtube clip called "Talkin' Shite", 1 to "Northern Irish Blogs" that contained the word "people". In fact the only non-wikimedia site with the complete phrase "Northern Irish people" was something about dentistry and of course, "Talkin' Shite." Hardly convincing. Windyjarhead (talk) 21:30, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't hold the power of enforcing preference - it is a community decision that should be made, not one by myself. You put "Not one inch" in quotation marks as if I said it. Well I did not. I merely have concerns about the possible negative effects of the self-admitted bias you are bringing to the discussion. These concerns should be able to be addressed through polite, intelligent discussion. If you can't address these issues, there's no need to suggest I'm not williing to make a reasonable compromise in my preference.
To be totally honest, because of this bias, I've been less than impressed with your reasons for preference. I'm not even from Northern Ireland, but seem to know more about the basic constitutional realities behind the nationality of the Northern Irish people, such as those laid out in British nationality law and the Belfast Agreement.
You say that the use of "Northern Irish people" isn't convincing. If a reputable, scholarly, third-party source is found to verify its meaning, I assume that point will be nullified? --Jza84 | Talk 22:14, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, this conversation is becoming adversarial, and it need not be. I am as much to blame for that at as anyone, so for that I apologize.
Yes, British Nationality Law applies to Northern Ireland. However, so does Irish nationality law. But citizenship is not the issue here. Hawaiians are citizens of the United States (ie. they are Americans, per se) even though Hawaii is not in America, it is in Polynesia. The difference here is the definition of "America". It can be taken to mean "The United States of America" (a nation-state) or the 2 continents of the Western Hemisphere and the smaller islands associated with them (ie. North America, South America, Cuba, Jamaica etc.) For that reason, Hawaiians are Polynesians too.
The questions that I am trying to address is the one of identity, not citizenship. Calling people "Northern Irish" imposes an identity, that may or may not be their chosen one. Calling them "People of Northern Ireland" merely implies that they are people and that they live in Northern Ireland, which, as you correctly stated, is an internationally-recognized geopolitical unit.
NB: It is worth mentioning here that the Agreement to which you refereed (the full text of which can be found here: [3] makes no mention of "Northern Irish People." It does however, make numerous refernces to "the people of Northern Ireland". Windyjarhead (talk) 23:27, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion seems to have continued on the basis that Northern Irish is a rejected term - that is not the case. One quarter of all people in Northern Ireland descriobe themselves thus, a result that is remarkably corss community, ie 23% of Catholics see themselves primarily as Northern Irish. It is true to say that 75% do not see themselves primarily as Northern Irish, but as ONiH couldn't see above, that does not preclude them from ALSO seeing themselves as Northern Irish. From this we can conclude that a significent minority of Northern Irish people (ie people in or from Northern Ireland) identify primarily as Northern Irish. I don't, but I think my father would to give a small example. Therefore to say that the term is rejected, invalid or "second class" does not stand up. Also, trying to rename the page outside of WP best practice meerly smacks of political point scoring and attempting to find offense where there is none, or at least very little. And for the record, I am only seeking to have this as a disambg page.Traditional unionist (talk) 11:41, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This article should be written, as was originally intended. It was nominated for deletion before it had been developed to any degree. What had been there was basically a placeholder copied from a similar article, which was in the process of being developed. --Setanta747 (talk) 13:21, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The English are an ethnic group. The Scottish are an ethnic group. The Welsh are an ethnic group. The Irish are an ethnic group. The "Northern Irish" are not an ethnic group. Stop trying to suggest they are. --Domer48 (talk) 13:30, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If people see themselves as being part of an ethnic group, then they probably are. Stop trying to suggest that the Northern Irish are not an ethnic group, Domer. The point is not specifically about ethnicity anyway, necessarily, as TU indicates.
Moreover, Northern Irish as an identity appears to be gaining ground and is more favoured (as a primary choice) by those people from the region who are under under 45 than by the older generations. It is often seen a a more neutral identity, embracing to an extent both Irish and British identities. This has even been demonstrated here by the fact that the article has been redirected to both Irish people and British people. --Setanta747 (talk) 14:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It should also be noted that all ethinic groups are based on indentity politics. To assert what is and isn't an ethnic group is based purely on perpective. Whether a group is a "recognised" ethnic group is a different matter.
It doesn't have mine. It is based on a flawed argument that has been deconstructed without valid reponse. There is no reason not to have the page at Northern Irish people. The new page was created without seeking concensus and without adequate discussion.Traditional unionist (talk) 10:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I was trying to adhere to WP:BOLD. The parties and governments chose to use the (somewhat unwieldy) term "people of Northern Ireland" and not to use "Northern Irish People" in the 1998 Agreement, as cited above, presumably to avoid just this argument. I think we should follow their lead. Windyjarhead (talk) 19:11, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think, Traditional unionist, it is at very least a step in the right direction. Certainly the content of the page reflects real-world practice, and allows the reader to make their mind up. My worry was the "forced" redirect to Irish people, which was rather one sided for obvious reasons. If there's a consensus to change to "Northern Irish people", then I'm happy with that. Perhaps we ought to ask the Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic groups for their stance? --Jza84 | Talk 11:46, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Should this be People of Northern Ireland or People from Northern Ireland
I wasnt being flippant and I knew what you mean. You are probably right. You've probably seen it but you will probably be interested in this discussion as well - its similar to the one above. regards--Vintagekits (talk) 17:03, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Contested deletion
This page should not be speedily deleted because... dubious reasons given by Domer48, who i feel is seeking to have any article that implies that the term "Northern Irish" means nationality deleted even though this article makes it clear what it means and its not that. A speedy deletion would also serve to stiffle any opposition to this deletion request.
In regards to the reason: This article may meet Wikipedia's criteria for speedy deletion as a page that was previously deleted via a deletion discussion, is substantially identical to the deleted version, and any changes do not address the reasons for which the material was deleted. See the previous discussion.
The following reasons given in the previous discussion are unmerited here:
Article doesn't make the assumption or delcaration that people from Northern Ireland are an ethnic group
Doesn't state that they are indigenous
It's title is appropraite for the content
The administrator Elen of the Roads at a recent AN/I stated that Northern Irish refers simply to someone from Northern Ireland. No-one is pretending that its an ethnic group or nationality, and the article doesn't imply it is so. The article serves as a useful wikilink for the term "Northern Irish" as it makes it clear it is simply on about people from Northern Ireland and nothing else.
This proposed deletion request is thus totally unmerited in my eyes. The surveys may or may not be relevant to the article, but the article still merits existence even if as a stub.
This article is a travesty. The only content is the age-old crap about religious identity and national identity. And even then, the page is just a list of statistical table. There is not even any real discussion in the article about what religion (or lack thereof) means to the people of Northern Ireland (outside the topic of the Troubles, perhaps), or what upcoming generations think about religion. Nor is there any discussion in the article about the Northern Irish abroad, or the culture of Northern Ireland (sans Troubles and pissing competitions please), famous or notable Northern Irish people, or the history of Northern Ireland and its people. Isn't there already an article about the demography of Northern Ireland? --82.21.97.70 (talk) 23:36, 17 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Statistics percentages don't add up
Apologies if I have missed something but it appears the percentages on the tables add up to over 100% both vertically and horizontally... so I'm struggling to make sense of that. Maybe I've missed something. 2A00:1028:8387:DA2:F929:6A88:E41E:7499 (talk) 19:05, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Definition of Northern Irish people
Article states "Northern Irish people is a demonym for all people born in Northern Ireland or people who are entitled to reside in Northern Ireland without any restriction on their period of residence"
This seems a poor definition as "people who are entitled to reside in Northern Ireland without any restriction on their period of residence" would include ALL British and Irish citizens, even if they have never stepped foot in NI and have no cultural, historical or any other link to NI other than simply having an unused right to reside there. This surely is not the intended definition. Could be replaced with something like:
"Northern Irish people is a demonym used in different context applying variously to people born in Northern Ireland, people residing non-temporarily in Northern Ireland or people who have a strong personal, family, cultural or other connections to Northern Ireland"
Maybe go on to state that unlike, say French people, it is harder to apply a specific nationality based definition to the term, however, despite the fractious nature of identity within Northern Ireland there is clear evidence that a proportion of the population of NI do identify with the term. Also worth emphasising that the term is required on a practical basis for the discussion of those people who reside within or are otherwise associated with Northern Ireland, though use of the term may be controversial amongst a proportion of Northern Ireland's population. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.27.80.156 (talk) 11:30, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]