May 4
Category:Terrorism in Iceland
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: No consensus. The organization involved is listed in Category:Eco-terrorism so since this is a child of Category:Terrorism and there is a series of by county categories it only makes sense to keep this category with what appears to be a correctly classified article. If there are BLP issues with the article, they should be addressed there. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:46, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- Category:Terrorism in Iceland ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Nominator's rationale: There has never been terrorism in Iceland. The category is only being abused to put a single article into it, 1986 Hvalur sinkings. The article is about an act of "eco-terrorism" (a much more inclusive term) which did not harm or terrorise anybody and hence does not satisfy the normal standard for calling something terrorism. That the Icelandic government, which was targeted by the sinking, called this "terrorism" is hardly relevant since this wasn't reported as fact in the media but as a statement. This categorisation is a violation of WP:TERRORIST and WP:BLPCAT, because the people who did the sinkings are named in the article. After removing the BLP vio, an empty category remains. Hans Adler 23:26, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Comment. If eco-terrorism is not terrorism, then why is is Category:Eco-terrorism a subcategory of Category:Terrorism? If they are not related, this would be inappropriate association of two terms by the mere fact that they have an English word in common. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:00, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- They are related, and most reliable sources claim that eco-terrorism is terrorism. Therefore it's OK for eco-terrorism to be categorised under terrorism. But if we just follow the WP:SYN logic "Source 1 says A is B and source 2 says B is C, so A is C", which most reliable sources do not follow, then we are playing the game of the politicians who have decided to use the most disparaging label possible to make one kind of political activism appear much worse than it is. That's hardly NPOV. If workers go on strike, then it's "industrial action" and under some circumstances criminal (e.g if they destroy factory property, as I heard they sometimes do in France), but it's not "industrial terrorism", "labour terrorism" or "work-related terrorism". Because the workers don't actually terrorise anybody. Even if the pickets use violence to stop other workers from entering the factory. But much milder actions somehow become "terrorism" just because there is an environmental ideology behind them? Please. That's like saying he who kills is a criminal, and a soldier kills, therefore a soldier is a criminal. It has a certain logic and it's OK to say this in political speech (I actually subscribe to this one), but it's hardly NPOV.
- I had to revert your restoration of the category to its one (previous) member page. As I made absolutely clear I removed the category for BLP reasons. It's totally incomprehensible for me how someone can think that the tradition that categories should not be emptied before a CfD is over is more important than a BLP concern. BLP clearly trumps it, and anyway, removing a category from a single page is hardly what this tradition is about. Do not restore, as I am prepared to edit war per WP:GRAPEVINE. Unfortunately this matter does not seem to be getting as much attention at the BLP noticeboard as I had hoped. But that doesn't mean you can simply ignore the BLP question. Hans Adler 07:51, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Keep, and restore contents. I'm not convinced by the argument that if no one is "terrorized", it's not "terrorism". It was eco-terrorism, which seems to be a subtype of terrorism. If it's been called eco-terrorism and it happened in Icelandic territory, that's enough for me for it to be "Terrorism in Iceland". I don't think it's received much attention on the BLP notice page because the concern is a bit of a red herring, IMO. There's a well-established tree of Category:Terrorism by country, and until that goes wholesale, I don't agree with cherry picking cases out to eliminate based solely on WP:TERRORIST. (Incidentally, I've never before seen a self-respecting editor use the phrase, "I am prepared to edit war", so that was an interesting experience.) Good Ol’factory (talk) 09:47, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- This is absolutely ridiculous. Just look at the sources that we have for a connection of the incident with the word terrorism:
- "The action was described as an act of vandalism, an act of terrorism or the act of madmen, depending on the media." [1] Does this sound like a clear case of terrorism? Note this is an Icelandic site. [2]
- "Does terrorism pay off in Iceland?" as a rhetorical question in the title, no further mention of the word. The article describes how the instigator of the event came to Iceland to be prosecuted: [3]
The prosecutor then asked him, “Did you give the orders to sink the ships?” and the suspect confessed, “I did.” As if all this wasn’t enough, Watson claims to have threatened the prosecutor that “we intend to sink the two other ships at the first opportunity.” Yet nothing was done; the State’s major action against the leader of an organization that had declared itself at war with Iceland seems to have been trying to serve him whale meat in the cafeteria of a “most comfortable jail”, in which he was being held for questioning.
What’s more, once Mr. Ocean Warrior (starving for media attention) had verified that Iceland did not intend to prosecute him, he offered to call on the ones who did in fact do the dirty work and have them come over to face trial. Motion denied. The prosecutor’s attitude being something like, “No, Mr Watson, you don’t tell us what to do; just get the hell out of the country and don’t come back for at least five years, please.”- Does this sound like a terrorism case?
- "Iceland calls saboteurs terrorists – Iceland regards the environmental activists who sabotaged the country's whaling industry as terrorists and will try to extradite them for prosecution, the prime minister said yesterday in Reykjavik." [4]
- Well, the above story tells us how credible the threat of extradition was. Why should the terrorism accusation, which the reporting paper merely reported, calling it instead sabotage, be any more credible?
- This page from a book is probably best, because it gives an overview over the reaction. It speaks of "intense criticism" and mentions the sabotage accusations as such, but never embraces the characterisation. If the reliable secondary sources don't call this terrorism (only a few primary ones did), how can we do this now? It might be different today because now that the term "eco-terrorism" has been coined and given a ridiculously broad definition it's easy to confuse people about what is and what isn't terrorism in this area. But this event happened before the confusion, and so the sources are clear. Hans Adler 19:29, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- PS: The redirect from Terrorism in Iceland was already deleted after this discussion. Hans Adler 19:50, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Comment, I've read your response to what I wrote, but I still stand by my initial opinion above; i.e., that the category should be kept; that it should be re-populated; and that it was inappropriate for you to empty the category prior to discussion, though it's excusable since you assumed it was a BLP violation. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:53, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete. It has zero members. I don't believe the one case that was in the category previously qualifies as "terrorism". And even if it did, what is the point of a category that has a single member? It seems just a way of adding a comment to the article that characterises the event in a way that is very much disputed. A "Category" should only be applied when it's very clear cut and undisputed. Barsoomian (talk) 11:22, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Extended discussion about removal of article from category and sources in the article
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Category:Telindus Oostende players
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was:
Relisted at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2010 May 13. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 08:27, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
- Propose renaming Category:Telindus Oostende players to Category:Basketball Club Oostende players
- Nominator's rationale: Rename. The main article is Basketball Club Oostende, Telindus Oostende is just a former sponsorship name. Axolotl Nr.733 (talk) 20:44, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
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Category:Euphony Bree players
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was:
Relisted at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2010 May 13. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 08:27, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
- Propose renaming Category:Euphony Bree players to Category:Bree BBC players
- Nominator's rationale: Rename. The main article is Bree BBC, Euphony Bree is just a sponsorship name. Axolotl Nr.733 (talk) 20:44, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
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Category:Frankfurt Skyliners players
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was:
Relisted at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2010 May 13. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 08:27, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
- Propose renaming Category:Frankfurt Skyliners players to Category:Skyliners Frankfurt players
- Nominator's rationale: Rename. The main article is Skyliners Frankfurt. Axolotl Nr.733 (talk) 20:44, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
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Category:Skyliners basketball coaches
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was:
Relisted at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2010 May 13. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 08:27, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
- Propose renaming Category:Skyliners basketball coaches to Category:Skyliners Frankfurt coaches
- Nominator's rationale: Rename. The main article is Skyliners Frankfurt. The club also doesn't have any other departments, so the additional "basketball" in the category's name is not necessary. Axolotl Nr.733 (talk) 20:44, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
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Atlético de Madrid
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: rename all. — ξxplicit 02:10, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
- Propose renaming Category:Atlético de Madrid to Category:Atlético Madrid
- Propose renaming Category:Atlético de Madrid managers to Category:Atlético Madrid managers
- Propose renaming Category:Atlético de Madrid matches to Category:Atlético Madrid matches
- Propose renaming Category:Atlético de Madrid footballers to Category:Atlético Madrid footballers
- Propose renaming Category:Atlético de Madrid presidents to Category:Atlético Madrid presidents
- Propose renaming Category:Atlético de Madrid templates to Category:Atlético Madrid templates
- Nominator's rationale: Rename. All of the article titles that contain the club's name in this category refer to "Atlético Madrid", not "Atlético de Madrid". Sub-categories should also be renamed to match. – PeeJay 20:24, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. – PeeJay 20:30, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Rename all - per nominator. Given that it is the title of the article about the club it only makes sense that the categories should be called Atlético Madrid as well. Sir Sputnik (talk) 20:37, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Rename all to tie in with article name. Eldumpo (talk) 22:44, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Rename all per nom. -- doorautomatica (talk) 14:16, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
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American rappers by location
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: Delete. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:55, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- Category:American rappers by location
- Category:East Coast rappers
- Category:West Coast rappers
- Category:Midwest rappers
- Category:Southern rappers
- Nominator's rationale: Delete all. I don't see the need to categorize rappers by what coastline they're from, especially when these categories contain refined subcategories to specify locations. For example, Category:Rappers from California is a subcategory Category:West Coast rappers, so any rapper from the West Coast would only get removed from the parent category and moved into the subcategory. When categorized by the genre West Coast hip hop, there's Category:Hip hop musicians by genre, which captures the defining characteristic of the style of hip hop they use.
If needed, refine Rappers from Foo state, but this current categorization isn't very helpful.(Reworded for clarification) If needed, refine Rappers from Foo state and create subcategories for cities of these states as need, but the Category:American rappers by location categorization scheme isn't very helpful. I'll be the first to volunteer to create all the categories needed should consensus agree with this nomination. — ξxplicit 19:40, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete the general East Coast, West Coast, Midwest, and Southern categories, but keep "Rappers from ____" because often some geographical locations of the US tend to have a big hip hop scene (New York City, Los Angeles, New Orleans, Houston, and Atlanta generally). Think about the "Musicians from _____" categories on Wikipedia. Andrewlp1991 (talk) 18:56, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- I wasn't implying we delete the Rappers from Foo state categories; on the contrary, I was suggesting we improve those categories. Reading over my wording, it does seem to imply this, and I've reworded the nomination. — ξxplicit 23:46, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete, in favor of doing it by states as discussed above. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:04, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete using states removes convolution with style, which is already covered separately. Hekerui (talk) 22:03, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
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Category:Documentaries about Madonna (entertainer)
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: merge. — ξxplicit 04:36, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- Propose merging Category:Documentaries about Madonna (entertainer) to parent categories.
- Nominator's rationale: Upmerge per WP:OC#SMALL. For all her media appearances my Googling suggests that there is a rather small set of truly notable documentaries about her, and the category's three titles are about it. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:08, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- upmerge per nom; may they always remain small in number. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:03, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
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Category:Settlements in Canada by province or territory
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: rename and merge as nominated. — ξxplicit 02:10, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
- Propose renaming Category:Settlements in Canada by province or territory to Category:Populated places in Canada by province or territory
- Propose merging Category:Settlements in the United States to Category:Populated places in the United States
- Nominator's rationale: Rename. To continue the conversions for Canadian categories per several consensus discussions for this change. I'll add some more, but anyone is free to add additional categories to this nomination. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:32, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Rename Category:Arctic settlements of the United States to Category:Populated Arctic places of the United States or something else. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:15, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Support. I have added the 58 United States categories of the same sort and rationale. şṗøʀĸɕäɾłäů∂ɛ:τᴀʟĸ 19:23, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Rename all per previously-discussed consensus. --TorriTorri(Talk to me!) 21:15, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Rename all per previous discussion. --Polaron | Talk 22:38, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose "Settlements" is a perfectly satsifactory term. Peterkingiron (talk) 22:19, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- It's a problematic term; there are some jurisdictions where "settlement" is actually the legal name of a specific class of place separate from cities and towns and villages. Bearcat (talk) 19:22, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- Rename all per consensus-building.--Mike Selinker (talk) 00:21, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- Rename all. I've actually favoured a rename of this tree for a while, for the reason I pointed out to Peterkingiron above, but didn't know what would be a viable alternative. Bearcat (talk) 19:22, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
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Category:Category message boxes
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: delete. — ξxplicit 02:10, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
- Category:Category message boxes ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Nominator's rationale: No longer used within {{Cmbox}}, the one template in there should be recategorized. The Evil IP address (talk) 13:54, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
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Category:Fictional dragons
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: keep. — ξxplicit 04:36, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- Propose merging Category:Fictional dragons to Category:Dragons in fiction
- Nominator's rationale: Merge: These names seem to describe the same category, but "Dragons in fiction" expresses more clearly that the category covers dragon characters from particular fictional works, as opposed to generic dragons, which are by definition fictional (see discussion page). Amccune (talk) 06:16, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Comment the two categories are not properly tagged. 70.29.208.247 (talk) 08:54, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose It should merge the other way around, like other categories which are "fictional X". 70.29.208.247 (talk) 08:54, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Keep The two categories do not describe the same thing. "Fictional dragons" ought to be oriented to individual examples or appearances of dragons, and is a natural subcategory for the broader "Dragons in fiction" which could include works or series, or analysis of the dragon as appears in fiction.- choster (talk) 12:49, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Keep both categories. Category:Dragons in fiction could perhaps be renamed if someone can produce a suitable phrase. Occuli (talk) 16:11, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
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Category:Canada Public Safety designated terrorist entities
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: delete. — ξxplicit 04:36, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- Propose renaming Category:Canada Public Safety designated terrorist entities to Category:Public Safety Canada designated terrorist entities
- Nominator's rationale: Rename. Still awkward but it at least matches the ministry's actual name, Public Safety Canada. --Kevlar (talk • contribs) 05:49, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Oh cripes. Do we really need this under any name whatsoever? Rename if necessary; delete if there's a shred of sanity left to be had on this planet. Bearcat (talk) 06:47, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete. Since the introduction itself points to the official list. I would say listify, but the the list already exists at List of designated terrorist organizations which can be sourced. Additionally this will lead to category clutter as more countries list these organizations. I accept the fact that there are already additional categories like this. If this is deleted, then those should also be listified or deleted as appropriate. This way we don't need to worry about the category name. Vegaswikian (talk) 06:54, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose - rename is hardly better, try "terrorist entities designated by Public Safety Canada" if you really can't delete it. GraemeLeggett (talk) 15:34, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete. I would support deletion of all of these "designated by such-and-such as a terrorist organisation" categories. Lists are way, way, way preferable for something like this. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:02, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
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Category:People honored with bronze statues
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: delete. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:53, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
- Category:People honored with bronze statues ( | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
- Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary category; criteria is far too broad, and adding citations would be a nightmare. C1k3 (talk) 04:40, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete As non-defining. No-one thinks of Albert Einstein as "ooh, he's the guy with the bronze statue!". Lugnuts (talk) 06:42, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete I agree. This is an unnecessary category, that doesn't seem to serve any purpose or to help readers in any way. And there does not seem to be any reliable source for the entries. RolandR (talk) 07:09, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete per all - and why just bronze? Johnbod (talk) 10:54, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Keep Having one's likeness cast in bronze is an honor accorded to a select number of people. The notion of bronze as a permanent material to commemorate one's achievements is a distinction that obviously goes back centuries, and has been identified as such by many noted art historians, such as Michael Cole (see, for example, his "The Medici Mercury and the Breath of Bronze," in Studies of the History of Art: Large Bronzes of the Renaissance, ed. Peta Motture [2003], among other publications). It is not unlike having one's likeness struck onto the surface of a coin for circulation, although a bronze statue usually is not subject to the same type of wear that a coin is, wear which, in time, might eradicate the image engraved upon it. This, of course, raises a separate discussion, too complex to explore here, about the relative meaning of casting images in different media (which gets also to the question of different materials, such as marble, which is arguably less permanent than bronze and thus possibly less honorific). The pages so far that have been included in this category include individuals whose effigy has been cast in bronze at least once, regardless of whether or not the statue still exists, and research was actually conducted that the statue was indeed bronze. I submit that identifying someone as worthy of a statue in bronze is a significant label, and genuinely encyclopedic, whether or not someone actually "searches" for them from the fact that they have had their image cast in bronze. Absecon 49 (talk) 00:02, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- — Note to closing admin: Absecon (talk • contribs) is the creator of the page that is the subject of this XfD. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 00:35, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- — Absecon (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 00:49, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Note to admin: Absecon 49 is the same user as Absecon 59, with over 2,600 edits, as shown here [6]. Absecon 49 (talk) 02:47, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Note to admin: The above status of Absecon 49 is confirmed by Absecon 59. Absecon 59 (talk) 02:58, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Further to the above, historically the great majority of people "horored" with bronze statues just paid for them. Do the far cheaper & more numerous busts count? Probably beside the point given the way this is going. Johnbod (talk) 19:04, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete. Not encyclopedic, and quite probably more common than the article creator believes. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:30, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete or Recategorize. This might make an interesting category of "Sports Figures honored with statues", as close to 90% of the list is made up of people associated with baseball. Rename it, remove the four non-sports figures (Eaton, Einstein, Lenin, and Marcus Aurelius), add other sports figures (including football, hockey, basketball, soccer, tennis, racing, track, golf, etc.) that have statues (bronze or otherwise), and it might be of greater interest and relevance. Unlike Clk3, I do not find the category too broad; I find it too narrow. I think we'd find many more sports figures verifiably honored with statues than we'll find people in general honored by a bronze statue. -- Couillaud (talk) 14:13, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete per WP:OC#ARBITRARY and WP:OC#TRIVIAL. This is not a defining characteristic of the individuals so categorized. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 14:25, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete. No reason whatsoever for this category to exist. DutchmanInDisguise (talk) 01:00, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete. Arbitrary category. --TorriTorri(Talk to me!) 03:50, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Delete per WP:OC#TRIVIAL. Couillaud makes an interesting argument as well though. -- doorautomatica (talk) 14:22, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
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Category:Airline flights
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: rename as nominated. At this stage, I can see a unanimous consensus that this needs to be renamed, and with the exception of one participant, all those who commented said that the rename proposal would be an acceptable option. Crum375 did not agree and raised what were acknowledged by other users to be some valid points, so this close is without prejudice to a future nomination for a rename to an alternate name. If Crum375 wants to re-nominate the category for renaming, then this could be done and we will then see if there would be a consensus for that proposal. This re-nomination can be done immediately or any time later on. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:09, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
- Propose renaming Category:Airline flights to Category:Aviation accidents and incidents by airline
- Nominator's rationale: These articles are not about airline flights; they are about specific incidents generally identified by flight number. Therefore the main category should be a parent under Category:Aviation accidents and incidents and the child categories should be renamed "Category:name of airline accidents and incidents".Mangoe (talk) 02:42, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Alternative suggestion: Rename to Category:Aviation mishaps by airline
- Rationale: Per discussion below, the title "incidents and accidents" doesn't cover hijacking, bombing, sabotage, etc. The official term is "occurrence" to cover all of these events, but it's a bit dry for casual readers. So perhaps "mishap" would be a more reader-friendly, well understood term, which will not conflict with the official terminology. Crum375 (talk) 03:19, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Oppose (original suggestion, Support alternate) Accidents and incidents don't cover other events like hijackings and bombings. The official term for all these events is "occurrence", but since these are all airline flights, a clearer term is "flight", which happens to be the current name. Crum375 (talk) 02:54, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Hijackings are incidents, and in fact articles on hijackings are listed by flight and are included in Category:Aviation accidents and incidents (see for instance Pan Am Flight 73, which is in Category:Airliner hijackings, Category:Aviation accidents and incidents in 1986, and Category:Pan American World Airways flights). Likewise Pan Am Flight 103 is similarly categorized (Category:Airliner bombings not being broken down by airline or anything else because it is so small, and Category:Pan Am Flight 103 being placed in the appropriate "incident" categories in lieu of the article). If you want to recategorize everything as "occurrence" instead of "accidents and incidents", be my guest; personally I think what we have now is sufficiently euphemistic. Mangoe (talk) 03:27, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- "Hijackings are incidents:" That's incorrect. If a hijacking ends up with a fatality or a serious injury, or significant damage, as it often does, it is not an "incident". A bombing is virtually always not an incident, unless the bomb is a dud, since there is bound to be serious injury or fatality. An aircraft occurrence is only classified as "incident" (by both ICAO and the U.S. NTSB) if there is no loss of life and no serious injury. Thus to limit the occurrence types to accidents and incidents only would be incorrect. And BTW, Pan Am 103 is absolutely not an "incident", since there was both loss of life and aircraft damage; it is normally classified as "occurrence" (see the occurrence_type parameter in the infobox). Crum375 (talk) 03:48, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Hijackings are incidents, and in fact articles on hijackings are listed by flight and are included in Category:Aviation accidents and incidents (see for instance Pan Am Flight 73, which is in Category:Airliner hijackings, Category:Aviation accidents and incidents in 1986, and Category:Pan American World Airways flights). Likewise Pan Am Flight 103 is similarly categorized (Category:Airliner bombings not being broken down by airline or anything else because it is so small, and Category:Pan Am Flight 103 being placed in the appropriate "incident" categories in lieu of the article). If you want to recategorize everything as "occurrence" instead of "accidents and incidents", be my guest; personally I think what we have now is sufficiently euphemistic. Mangoe (talk) 03:27, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- I am not persuaded that we need to participate in such a jargonized and meaningless-to-the-layperson categorization, but in any case the issue still remains: these are about accidents, incidents, occurrences, whatever, but they are not about flights per se. If it is necessary to make the kind of distinctions you are calling for, then that simply means more parent categories and a division of the articles according to the type of event. Mangoe (talk) 03:57, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- It's not an issue of "jargon", it is the official terminology used by the official agencies and our most reliable sources, and WP's goal is to follow the sources, not to invent our own dumbed-down and possibly confusing terminology, which may end up conflicting with the official one. The point here is that these are airline operations, and as such, every airline operation which carries passengers and/or cargo for hire is officially a flight with a number, and referred to as "flight" in the occurrence reports and news coverage, as well as our own article title and text. If the category covers non-airline operations, such as general aviation or military flights, then there would not be a flight number, and "occurrence" would be the best name. But for occurrences involving airline flights, the short name "airline flights" is the most apt. Crum375 (talk) 04:06, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- I am not persuaded that we need to participate in such a jargonized and meaningless-to-the-layperson categorization, but in any case the issue still remains: these are about accidents, incidents, occurrences, whatever, but they are not about flights per se. If it is necessary to make the kind of distinctions you are calling for, then that simply means more parent categories and a division of the articles according to the type of event. Mangoe (talk) 03:57, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Rename to something, anything - present name is clearly misleading. "Incidents", "occurrences" whatever - (later) "mishaps" sounds pretty silly to me, I must say. That's when you lose someone's suitcase. (end) I'd point out that article titles just using a flight name and number are also somewhat misleading, if possibly justified by common usage. A scheduled FOOAIR Flight 1234 might have taken place thousands of times without any incidents or occurrences; such names should be further disamed, perhaps unless really well-known. We need to remember how high WP articles come in net searches - there must be many people who just want to know when the thing lands etc who find themselves reading these cheerful tales. Crum says "The official term for all these events is "occurrence", but since these are all airline flights, a clearer term is "flight", which happens to be the current name." What on earth does this mean??? It makes no sense at all. Johnbod (talk) 11:01, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- It means that if the category covers all generic occurrences, i.e. including general aviation and military, then "flight" would be too specific. But if this category includes only airline flights, then the term "airline flight" is the most appropriate, because every airline flight has a designated flight number and the occurrence name is commonly referred to as "flight X" by the reliable sources. Crum375 (talk) 15:15, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- No, because "airline flights" are things that happen every day (or whatever) per the schedule, just like bus routes. This category is for articles about specific things that happened on specific days to particular instances of airline flights, not the flight in general. No one would know this from the current name. Johnbod (talk) 15:27, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Flights happen every day, but only mishaps are notable and make it to our pages, or relevant reliable sources. On Wikipedia, it was long decided to name all airline accident articles "<Airline> Flight <number>". This is because virtually all reliable sources, and specifically the investigation reports, refer to the "accident aircraft" as "Flight X". This is the common terminology in the area of accident reporting, and we should be following the terminology used by the most reliable sources. Crum375 (talk) 16:35, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- I could argue that (for instance) Bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 is a better title than just Pan Am Flight 103, and that the former title is how most major media referred to it. Likewise they were prone to refer to the Crash of Eastern Air Lines Flight 401. The NTSB usage of the flight alone is within the context of reporting about accidents; we do not have this context here. Mangoe (talk) 17:32, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- It's not just the NTSB and ICAO. It's a variety of aviation safety related publications, as well as reputable news outlets such as The New York Times. But the most crucial point, besides following the most reliable sources, is our internal WP consistency. This is why we have "projects", such as WikiProject Aviation, and their current article naming convention is that airline mishaps or occurrences are called "<airline> Flight <number>." Category naming should also follow the best sources and be centralized at the relevant project. Crum375 (talk) 18:24, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- In fact not all the articles have this format of title. But the articles are a separate issue from the category name (centralized here, please note) which badly fails policy by giving no indication of what the category is really about. The same is true of the "by airline" sub-cats, which should be renamed too. Sometimes projects just lose sight of the plot. Johnbod (talk) 02:35, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Can you name a relatively recent airline occurrence article on WP which is not of this format? And if there is disconnect between the project and CfD, it needs to be fixed. All I know is that in the area of aircraft occurrences, both in investigative agency reports and news coverage by the major media and safety publications, "flight X" is the standard designation of the "case file". Crum375 (talk) 03:06, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- In fact not all the articles have this format of title. But the articles are a separate issue from the category name (centralized here, please note) which badly fails policy by giving no indication of what the category is really about. The same is true of the "by airline" sub-cats, which should be renamed too. Sometimes projects just lose sight of the plot. Johnbod (talk) 02:35, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- It's not just the NTSB and ICAO. It's a variety of aviation safety related publications, as well as reputable news outlets such as The New York Times. But the most crucial point, besides following the most reliable sources, is our internal WP consistency. This is why we have "projects", such as WikiProject Aviation, and their current article naming convention is that airline mishaps or occurrences are called "<airline> Flight <number>." Category naming should also follow the best sources and be centralized at the relevant project. Crum375 (talk) 18:24, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- I could argue that (for instance) Bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 is a better title than just Pan Am Flight 103, and that the former title is how most major media referred to it. Likewise they were prone to refer to the Crash of Eastern Air Lines Flight 401. The NTSB usage of the flight alone is within the context of reporting about accidents; we do not have this context here. Mangoe (talk) 17:32, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Flights happen every day, but only mishaps are notable and make it to our pages, or relevant reliable sources. On Wikipedia, it was long decided to name all airline accident articles "<Airline> Flight <number>". This is because virtually all reliable sources, and specifically the investigation reports, refer to the "accident aircraft" as "Flight X". This is the common terminology in the area of accident reporting, and we should be following the terminology used by the most reliable sources. Crum375 (talk) 16:35, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- No, because "airline flights" are things that happen every day (or whatever) per the schedule, just like bus routes. This category is for articles about specific things that happened on specific days to particular instances of airline flights, not the flight in general. No one would know this from the current name. Johnbod (talk) 15:27, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Support - follows naming format of parent category ("Aviation accidents and incidents") and shows how the child categories are grouped. GraemeLeggett (talk) 11:43, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Support - şṗøʀĸɕäɾłäů∂ɛ:τᴀʟĸ 18:55, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Support renaming to Category:Aviation accidents and incidents by airline. I was looking for this category there earlier today and was surprised to find it at Category:Airline flights which is not that descriptive. -Atmoz (talk) 02:48, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- Have you read this discussion? Do you understand that there are problems with the proposed terminology (e.g. it does not include 9/11 attacks, hijackings, sabotage, bombings, suicides, etc.)? Crum375 (talk) 02:52, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- I have read the discussion. All of the things you describe are incidents by any reasonable definition of the word incident. The airline industry does not get to redefine words. In fact, I would even say that all of these things are incidents even by the ICAO definition. "An occurrence, other than an accident, associated with the operation of an aircraft which affects or could affect the safety of operation." Hijackings, sabotage, bombings and suicides [by airplane] are all occurrences that affect the safety of operation. -Atmoz (talk) 03:35, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- "Hijackings, sabotage, bombings and suicides [by airplane] are all occurrences that affect the safety of operation": Once you have serious injury, a fatality, or serious damage, all these occurrences are no longer "incidents". Therefore, they would specifically not fit in an aviation incident category. On Wikipedia we follow reliable sources, and the term "incident" in aviation has a very specific meaning. If we were to define it differently than the standard aviation terminology, we'd be at odds with the most reliable sources used to support the articles. Crum375 (talk) 03:48, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- By what definition? The ICAO definition has 3 parts:
- "An occurrence, other than an accident"
- "associated with the operation of an aircraft"
- "which affects or could affect the safety of operation"
- Where does serious injury, fatality or serious damage come into play? That's right. Then they're considered accidents. "An occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards the aircraft with the intention of flight until such time as all such persons have disembarked, in which: a) a person is or seriously injured as a result of... being in the aircraft..." Hence, "incidents and accidents". -Atmoz (talk) 03:58, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- And to put an and to your nonsense about 9/11, Category:September 11 attacks is considered a Category:Aviation accidents and incidents in the United States and quite rightly too. -Atmoz (talk) 04:05, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- By both ICAO and NTSB, which are the two most relevant sources for this, an aviation occurrence with a fatality is not an "incident", and is normally considered an "accident". But the 9/11 attacks or other "deliberate" occurrences, are not considered "accidents" by most sources. So most sources, and the respective Wikipedia articles, use plain "occurrence" as the generic term for them (see the occurrence_type parameter in the infobox template for such articles, e.g. Pan Am Flight 103). The bottom line is that "incidents" and "accidents" don't cover deliberate occurrences with fatalities, serious injuries or serious damage. Crum375 (talk) 04:16, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- By the ICAO definition, an occurence with a fatality is an accident. By the ICAO definition, 9/11 was an accident. The ICAO makes no distinction about if an occurrence was truly an accident or deliberate in their definition of accident. If you think they do, please quote it here. -Atmoz (talk) 04:24, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- And Pan Am 103 is in the category Category:Airliner bombings which is a subcat of Category:Accidents and incidents involving airliners. Strike 2. Any other tries? -Atmoz (talk) 04:28, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- I already mentioned above that the official investigative agencies, ICAO and NTSB, consider the 9/11 attacks "accidents". But the vast majority of other sources, including all the major news media, don't call those attacks "the 9/11 accidents", or the Lockerbie crash "the Lockerbie accident". In fact, I don't think I have ever seen any news article call those occurrences "accidents" (but correct me if I am wrong). So it would be odd for Wikipedia to call Pan Am 103 an "accident", when there isn't a single news source calling it that, and similarly for all the other "deliberately caused occurrences" with fatalities, serious injuries and damage. As far as the parent cat using the improper terminology, we are aware of that, and it should also be addressed, but at the moment we are focusing on the airliner cats, which are generally most notable and visible. Once this cat naming is agreed on, we can try to improve the others. Crum375 (talk) 04:39, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- Both 9/11 and Lockerbie were "accidents or incidents involving airliners". Nobody with half a brain would argue otherwise. You are arguing otherwise. -Atmoz (talk) 04:44, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- Can you point me to a high quality reliable news source which calls the Lockerbie crash an "accident"? Our best general resource for Wikipedia aviation occurrence articles is ASN, and you'll notice that they call Lockerbie a "criminal occurrence". As I said above, with my "half brain", I am not aware of anyone calling these occurrences "accidents", but if you have reliable news media sources showing otherwise, please point them out and we can discuss them. Crum375 (talk) 04:57, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- By both ICAO and NTSB, which are the two most relevant sources for this, an aviation occurrence with a fatality is not an "incident", and is normally considered an "accident". But the 9/11 attacks or other "deliberate" occurrences, are not considered "accidents" by most sources. So most sources, and the respective Wikipedia articles, use plain "occurrence" as the generic term for them (see the occurrence_type parameter in the infobox template for such articles, e.g. Pan Am Flight 103). The bottom line is that "incidents" and "accidents" don't cover deliberate occurrences with fatalities, serious injuries or serious damage. Crum375 (talk) 04:16, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- By what definition? The ICAO definition has 3 parts:
- "Hijackings, sabotage, bombings and suicides [by airplane] are all occurrences that affect the safety of operation": Once you have serious injury, a fatality, or serious damage, all these occurrences are no longer "incidents". Therefore, they would specifically not fit in an aviation incident category. On Wikipedia we follow reliable sources, and the term "incident" in aviation has a very specific meaning. If we were to define it differently than the standard aviation terminology, we'd be at odds with the most reliable sources used to support the articles. Crum375 (talk) 03:48, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- I have read the discussion. All of the things you describe are incidents by any reasonable definition of the word incident. The airline industry does not get to redefine words. In fact, I would even say that all of these things are incidents even by the ICAO definition. "An occurrence, other than an accident, associated with the operation of an aircraft which affects or could affect the safety of operation." Hijackings, sabotage, bombings and suicides [by airplane] are all occurrences that affect the safety of operation. -Atmoz (talk) 03:35, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- Have you read this discussion? Do you understand that there are problems with the proposed terminology (e.g. it does not include 9/11 attacks, hijackings, sabotage, bombings, suicides, etc.)? Crum375 (talk) 02:52, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
Terminology
In checking with the NTSB, FAA, and ICAO, I find that they all make a sharp distinction between "accidents" and various unlawful acts (to use the ICAO term). "Incident" seems to be an FAA term for accidents that were averted; they seem to be for the most part not notable. Neither are general aviation accidents, as we don't seem to have articles on but a very few (e.g. The Day the Music Died, but note that we do not have a separate article for the crash that killed Wiley Post and Will Rogers). All of this is hampered by the lack of any reference in the aviation accidents and incidents article to any definition of terms.
The consistent grouping of hijackings, bombings and other acts of malice as distinct from accidents perhaps ought to be honored. These are few enough in number to where the grouping by airline is probably superfluous. But also, and quite to the point, the FAA groups accidents by airline, but does not do so for illegal acts. Mangoe (talk) 13:21, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- "Incident" is not an accident that was averted, but an occurrence with relatively minor consequences, though potentially significant safety implications. Both ICAO and NTSB use "occurrence" as the generic term for all aviation mishaps. On Wikipedia we cover all notable aviation occurrences, and the aviation occurrence infobox has an occurrence_type parameter to identify the specific occurrence type, which then appears in the infobox's title. It would make sense to follow this logic, or even automate it, for categories. Crum375 (talk) 15:24, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- The exact meaning of "incident" versus "accident" is a bit beside the point if we aren't going to break them out into separate categories (and can we please get a citation for the definitions?). The more significant division seems to be between accidents/incidents and illegal/malicious acts. Mangoe (talk) 16:24, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Here are the U.S. NTSB's definitions, and the international ICAO's definitions. It seems that the current usage on WP, based on the occurrence_type parameter in the aviation occurrence infobox, is to classify "occurrences" into "Accident", "Incident", and plain "Occurrence" (the template's default) for bombing, hijacking, etc. Crum375 (talk) 16:39, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Though correct technically, "occurrence" may be a bit dry for a reader, and doesn't communicate directly that something went wrong; see my alternative suggestion for "mishap" above. A potential drawback of "mishap" is that it may connote a minimization of the event, so community input is needed. Crum375 (talk) 12:34, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- "Mishap" is so close to "accident" as to not make enough of a difference. It appears that the main point of my first remark in this section seems to have gotten lost in the discussion of particular words: that the "accidents and incidents" category, however it is named, doesn't contain what the ICAO refers to as "unlawful acts". I see this distinction maintained in the FAA reporting too: they report A&I by airline, but they do not so break out bombings, hijackings, etc.
- Though correct technically, "occurrence" may be a bit dry for a reader, and doesn't communicate directly that something went wrong; see my alternative suggestion for "mishap" above. A potential drawback of "mishap" is that it may connote a minimization of the event, so community input is needed. Crum375 (talk) 12:34, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Here are the U.S. NTSB's definitions, and the international ICAO's definitions. It seems that the current usage on WP, based on the occurrence_type parameter in the aviation occurrence infobox, is to classify "occurrences" into "Accident", "Incident", and plain "Occurrence" (the template's default) for bombing, hijacking, etc. Crum375 (talk) 16:39, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- The exact meaning of "incident" versus "accident" is a bit beside the point if we aren't going to break them out into separate categories (and can we please get a citation for the definitions?). The more significant division seems to be between accidents/incidents and illegal/malicious acts. Mangoe (talk) 16:24, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- This suggest to me what I proposed a bit earlier: establish the categories as I have proposed, but remove all the unlawful act occurrences from them. Mangoe (talk) 14:43, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- The problem with that, like any original research, is that it could create more problems that it will solve. There is a growing trend to "criminalize" aviation accidents, see for example Gol 1907, where Brazilian prosecutors charged the pilots with "endangering an aircaft." There are other cases where the actions of the flight crew (or maintenance staff) were considered "criminal". So this would lead us down a slippery slope, of Wikipedians trying to judge the "criminality" of the parties. Crum375 (talk) 15:02, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- And check out EgyptAir Flight 990 and SilkAir Flight 185 to give yourself more food for thought. Crum375 (talk) 15:17, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- These are already categorized in Category:Deliberate airliner crashes, so they could be taken out of the "A&I" categories. Mangoe (talk) 18:11, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- That cat would be POV in many cases. For example, both EgyptAir Flight 990 and SilkAir Flight 185 are hotly disputed, with the U.S. NTSB concluding they were "deliberate" and the government of registry disagreeing, with various related litigations. Also, we need to categorize occurrences on the day they occur, while the "probable cause" statement, which may or may not indicate a cause, can take years, sometimes ending as "inconclusive" or "conflicting". The point is that using any kind of specific category which does not follow an official ruling could cause protracted edit wars among editors, sometimes along nationalistic lines. It's far better to just lump all aviation "occurrences" into one category, with a generic name, avoiding all these thorny issues. The only question is the name, and I can live with "Flight" (the current version), "Occurrence" (the official ICAO/NTSB terminology), or "Mishap" (a more reader-friendly synonym of "occurrence", which does not conflict with any official term). Crum375 (talk) 18:22, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, those are the only two in the category which are disputed, and we could move them into Category:Airliner crashes of disputed cause or something like that. I don't see any reason not to start them out in "A&I" unless there is obvious evidence from the start; we didn't need to wait for an NTSB finding to categorize the four September 11 flights. Mangoe (talk) 19:17, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Even calling it "disputed" has issues. First, it takes a long time, perhaps years, to get a probable cause, so the cat will remain hanging in the balance for years. (This is true for many other occurrences too, by the way, and a good reason not to have over-specific cats.) Second, even the fact that the cause is disputed, is itself disputed sometimes. See for example, Arrow Air Flight 1285, where there was a 4-5 split on the Canadian investigation board. The majority called it a normal accident, caused by icing, while the minority called it sabotage by unknown terrorists. So I can see edit wars over calling (or not calling) it "disputed". The thing is, we should try to avoid creating cats that are not trivial to assign, because it will lead to headaches at best, or protracted edit wars. And again, it may take years to be able to make any decision on the cat if it's too specific. Crum375 (talk) 19:25, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- You do have a point there. Maybe we do need just one big catch-all main category. Mangoe (talk) 20:11, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Even calling it "disputed" has issues. First, it takes a long time, perhaps years, to get a probable cause, so the cat will remain hanging in the balance for years. (This is true for many other occurrences too, by the way, and a good reason not to have over-specific cats.) Second, even the fact that the cause is disputed, is itself disputed sometimes. See for example, Arrow Air Flight 1285, where there was a 4-5 split on the Canadian investigation board. The majority called it a normal accident, caused by icing, while the minority called it sabotage by unknown terrorists. So I can see edit wars over calling (or not calling) it "disputed". The thing is, we should try to avoid creating cats that are not trivial to assign, because it will lead to headaches at best, or protracted edit wars. And again, it may take years to be able to make any decision on the cat if it's too specific. Crum375 (talk) 19:25, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, those are the only two in the category which are disputed, and we could move them into Category:Airliner crashes of disputed cause or something like that. I don't see any reason not to start them out in "A&I" unless there is obvious evidence from the start; we didn't need to wait for an NTSB finding to categorize the four September 11 flights. Mangoe (talk) 19:17, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Personally, although almost anything would be an improvement on the current name, I find "mishap" sounds silly and trivial. I doubt anyone surviving these er, whatevers went home & said there had been a "mishap" on their flight today. That would be if their luggage got lost or someone spilled a drink on them. If "incident" does not work, go for "occurrence", or "events". Johnbod (talk) 18:59, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, as I noted above, "mishap" may possibly be seen by some as minimizing tragic events. I have seen it used by reliable sources as an umbrella term synonymous with the more official "occurrence", but perhaps for the general reader it may not be ideal. The problem I see with "occurrence" is that it's too dry, and for airlines (not general aviation and military operations) the term "flight" is available and is widely used to identify these occurrences in both the news media as well as technical publications. The generic term "event" has a problem in that it is too broad, and can cover "happy" occasions, such as rolling out of a new aircraft type, some aviation record being broken, a big party thrown to commemorate or celebrate something, etc. Crum375 (talk) 19:18, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- How about Category:Aviation disasters and mishaps? The problem with "incident" and "occurrence" is that they don't mean (in real life) what the aviation authorities are using them to mean. "Incident" at least carries the proper connotation of notability; "occurrence" really means no more than "something happened". We really need words that mean that something bad happened. Mangoe (talk) 20:11, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- The thing is, in some cases nothing bad actually happens, but something bad almost happens. Take Northwest Airlines Flight 188 (defined as "incident" in this case), where not one person received a scratch, nor was there any damage except to the pilots' pride (and certificates). Your suggestion above seems to take two extremes: disasters and mishaps, but there are many occurrences which fall in-between, perhaps some injuries, some serious, perhaps some aircraft or property damage, but not a "disaster", and not a "mishap" if you define it as something "trivial". This is why it makes sense to rely on reliable sources, such as investigative agencies and aviation safety publications, which deal with the categorization issue daily, and which seem to use "occurrence" and "flight" (the latter for airline operations). Crum375 (talk) 20:35, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Category:Airline flight events or similar is growing on me - I don't think they sound like parties. Whatever is used must first of all be meaningful and clear to non-specialists. Johnbod (talk) 20:37, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, it should be clear and meaningful, but it can't conflict with the sources. After all, we base our article content on reliable sources, so it makes sense that categories be based on sources too. "Flight event" sounds odd, it's not something used in any professional publication — nor any other reliable source that I have seen — to refer to "occurrence". Also, consider that some occurrences take place on the ground, e.g. while taxiing or after touching down, but using this terminology could imply the aircraft was in the air. In addition, "event" could refer to a record breaking flight, or an inaugural flight, which clearly should not be in this category. Crum375 (talk) 22:06, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- No, if need be category names prioritize clarity and meaning over fitting in with the article names; there are many precedents for this. They are not articles & don't have sources. I think your arguments here are verging on the desperate. Johnbod (talk) 03:04, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- How about Category:Airline flight anomalies? These are flights that our not within the normal margins. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:55, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- True, but most people would consider "anomaly" to be something very minor, like an overheating engine, or a clogged toilet. Calling a major aviation disaster an "anomaly" would be a serious stretch. Crum375 (talk) 03:11, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, it should be clear and meaningful, but it can't conflict with the sources. After all, we base our article content on reliable sources, so it makes sense that categories be based on sources too. "Flight event" sounds odd, it's not something used in any professional publication — nor any other reliable source that I have seen — to refer to "occurrence". Also, consider that some occurrences take place on the ground, e.g. while taxiing or after touching down, but using this terminology could imply the aircraft was in the air. In addition, "event" could refer to a record breaking flight, or an inaugural flight, which clearly should not be in this category. Crum375 (talk) 22:06, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Category:Airline flight events or similar is growing on me - I don't think they sound like parties. Whatever is used must first of all be meaningful and clear to non-specialists. Johnbod (talk) 20:37, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- The thing is, in some cases nothing bad actually happens, but something bad almost happens. Take Northwest Airlines Flight 188 (defined as "incident" in this case), where not one person received a scratch, nor was there any damage except to the pilots' pride (and certificates). Your suggestion above seems to take two extremes: disasters and mishaps, but there are many occurrences which fall in-between, perhaps some injuries, some serious, perhaps some aircraft or property damage, but not a "disaster", and not a "mishap" if you define it as something "trivial". This is why it makes sense to rely on reliable sources, such as investigative agencies and aviation safety publications, which deal with the categorization issue daily, and which seem to use "occurrence" and "flight" (the latter for airline operations). Crum375 (talk) 20:35, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- How about Category:Aviation disasters and mishaps? The problem with "incident" and "occurrence" is that they don't mean (in real life) what the aviation authorities are using them to mean. "Incident" at least carries the proper connotation of notability; "occurrence" really means no more than "something happened". We really need words that mean that something bad happened. Mangoe (talk) 20:11, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, as I noted above, "mishap" may possibly be seen by some as minimizing tragic events. I have seen it used by reliable sources as an umbrella term synonymous with the more official "occurrence", but perhaps for the general reader it may not be ideal. The problem I see with "occurrence" is that it's too dry, and for airlines (not general aviation and military operations) the term "flight" is available and is widely used to identify these occurrences in both the news media as well as technical publications. The generic term "event" has a problem in that it is too broad, and can cover "happy" occasions, such as rolling out of a new aircraft type, some aviation record being broken, a big party thrown to commemorate or celebrate something, etc. Crum375 (talk) 19:18, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- That cat would be POV in many cases. For example, both EgyptAir Flight 990 and SilkAir Flight 185 are hotly disputed, with the U.S. NTSB concluding they were "deliberate" and the government of registry disagreeing, with various related litigations. Also, we need to categorize occurrences on the day they occur, while the "probable cause" statement, which may or may not indicate a cause, can take years, sometimes ending as "inconclusive" or "conflicting". The point is that using any kind of specific category which does not follow an official ruling could cause protracted edit wars among editors, sometimes along nationalistic lines. It's far better to just lump all aviation "occurrences" into one category, with a generic name, avoiding all these thorny issues. The only question is the name, and I can live with "Flight" (the current version), "Occurrence" (the official ICAO/NTSB terminology), or "Mishap" (a more reader-friendly synonym of "occurrence", which does not conflict with any official term). Crum375 (talk) 18:22, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- These are already categorized in Category:Deliberate airliner crashes, so they could be taken out of the "A&I" categories. Mangoe (talk) 18:11, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- This suggest to me what I proposed a bit earlier: establish the categories as I have proposed, but remove all the unlawful act occurrences from them. Mangoe (talk) 14:43, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
(outdent) I've gone to the NTSB site, and they definitely class EgyptAir 990 as an "accident": see for instance all over the published Aircraft Accident Brief. So I'm not sure that we need to worry about "occurrences" that are neither accidents nor incidents, because it looks as though even malicious acts count as "accidents" or "incidents"—even the 9/11 occurrences are classed as "accidents" (see here). Mangoe (talk) 21:30, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- The NSTB database is limited to "Accident" and "Incident" only. They thus consider the 9/11 attacks "Accidents", because there was loss of life and severe damage. Clearly you need to go beyond the restricted NTSB database. I doubt you'd find many reliable sources, not restricted to government computer-speak, labeling the 9/11 occurrences as "accidents". Crum375 (talk) 21:51, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see how you can use the NTSB's classification as a source for things that aren't in it. As a corollary it seems to me that we let things that aren't in its database fall into other categories. Mangoe (talk) 00:33, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- The NTSB generally only covers U.S. occurrences (with some exceptions), so we can't rely on the NTSB to classify occurrences for us world wide. As I noted above, the NTSB's database is restricted to only "accidents" and "incidents" so we can't rely on it to help classify other types. I think we are in agreement that we should be reader-friendly, not government-database-speak focused, so calling the 9/11 attacks "accidents" is out. Even ASN, our main source for aviation occurrences, calls the attacks "Hijackings" (I think they changed their software to allow that). So I am not suggesting we use the NTSB database terminology as source, but their prose text, e.g. here (bold added): "An accident is defined as an occurrence associated with the operation of an aircraft...An incident is an occurrence other than an accident..."[7] And since NTSB is U.S.-centric, we have ICAO as the main international source, and they explain to us in detail how "occurrence" is the generic term which covers the various "occurrence classes", such as Accident, Incident, etc.[8] The point is that professional people have thought long and hard about this generic terminology issue, and both the U.S. NTSB and international ICAO came up with the same result: "occurrence". But as I noted above, I believe that for airliner occurrences, since there is a well defined flight number, and our wiki articles are already titled "<Airline> Flight <number>", the term "flight" is a reasonable reader-friendly choice. Crum375 (talk) 00:58, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- Let me add a suggestion. I agree with the nom that the current category page is confusing, since there is no mention of what the category is about. I think what's needed is to clarify in that category page's (currently-empty) lead that the category includes airline occurrences, identified by airline and flight number, ranging from minor incidents to major disasters. This would hopefully help reduce the concerns mentioned above. Crum375 (talk) 01:40, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- It would, but a rename is still needed. Johnbod (talk) 03:04, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- But rename to what? Crum375 (talk) 03:13, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- I gave it a shot. Crum375 (talk) 03:40, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'm fine with that - does this mean you are now happy with "occurrences" for the cat name? Johnbod (talk) 02:57, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- My number one preference is for "flight", as I think it's the most reader-friendly, it corresponds to the article naming standard, and it's what readers would see in the news media ("Flight 800 black box recovered by divers this morning"). It is also now explained in the lead text of the cat page. But I would settle for "occurrence" as second best, because it's the "dry" official terminology. Crum375 (talk) 03:11, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'm fine with that - does this mean you are now happy with "occurrences" for the cat name? Johnbod (talk) 02:57, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- It would, but a rename is still needed. Johnbod (talk) 03:04, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see how you can use the NTSB's classification as a source for things that aren't in it. As a corollary it seems to me that we let things that aren't in its database fall into other categories. Mangoe (talk) 00:33, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
Pause for refreshment
I don't see a lot of progress here, and it seems to me that the continuing focus on official usage is the reason why. We still have three cases to deal with: accidents, crimes, and cases where things went wrong but not enough to cause serious damage or injury. "Accident" is not a problem term because the agencies respected the normal usage of the term; "incident" is, because in English accidents are incidents, and for that matter, so are crimes.
I have decided that I don't think the controversy over a relatively few crashes is enough to justify disrupting a whole scheme that otherwise would be pretty simple. If we let each of the criminal act types stand as their own category, as they already do, then we can just stick with Category:Aviation accidents and incidents, place Category:Aviation accidents and incidents by airline underneath that, and work from there. Undisputed crimes can stay in the categories they already use. The disputed cases I think we should address separately, but I think we are going through an awful lot of contortions to deal with a very small subgroup (at present, only four articles as best I can determine). Mangoe (talk) 16:04, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- "only four articles as best I can determine": What category are you referring to? Crum375 (talk) 17:10, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- We were talking earlier about cases where there was a dispute as to whether a crash was accidental or deliberate, and thus far I have only found four instances, two of which were discussed above. Mangoe (talk) 17:48, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- There may be more such cases, but I don't see this group as important enough to warrant its own wiki-category so I don't think it matters much. But there are lots of deliberate occurrences, where there is no dispute they were deliberate. And although some agencies call them "accidents", the media and general public rarely if ever do. So for the big picture, we have the minor occurrences, where there is no fatality, serious damage or serious injury, which are officially labeled as "incidents"; the classical "accident", where there is at least one fatality, serious injury or serious damage; and the occurrences caused by a deliberate act. Of the latter, if there is no fatality, serious injury or damage, all would classify it as "incident". The classical accidents would also be classified as "accidents" with no problem. But the other occurrences, where there is a fatality, serious injury or damage, due to a deliberate act, would only fit into "occurrence", without contradicting either official-speak or the media and general public. The ones you mention, where the "deliberateness" is in question or dispute, like EgyptAir Flight 990, will still fit into the general "occurrence" category. So as bottom line, "occurrence" will cover everything, with no conflict. I still like "flight" better for airline occurrences, since it conforms to our naming convention and the typical media references ("Flight 800 black boxes recovered"), but can live with occurrence though it's not as reader-friendly. Crum375 (talk) 20:02, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- We were talking earlier about cases where there was a dispute as to whether a crash was accidental or deliberate, and thus far I have only found four instances, two of which were discussed above. Mangoe (talk) 17:48, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- What I'm suggesting is that we keep the non-accident/incident events out of the category entirely and let them live solely within their own "type of violation" categories (hijackings, etc.). That's consonant with the way the NTSB, FAA, and ICAO group them (if you look on the FAA site in particular they group accidents and incidents by airline, but they don't include illegal acts in those groupings).
- So far there's a consistent consensus against sticking with flight, so I don't think there's any point in continuing to pursue it as a possibility. Mangoe (talk) 20:27, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- As I noted above, the problem with keeping deliberate acts out of the main category is that we may not know for a fact whether they were deliberate or not for several years, and even then that classification may remain contentious. We need to be able to immediately classify aviation occurrences, as they happen, not wait for years for government agencies to issue their "probable cause" statements for us to be able to classify them. And even those "final" statements are not always conclusive or consensual. Crum375 (talk) 20:37, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- In the short term, if there is doubt then we can classify them as "accidents/incidents"; if the analysis changes, we change the category to match. After all, we move species articles around based on taxonomic changes all the time. My impression again is that the number of genuinely problematic cases is too small to justify shaping the whole scheme around them. Mangoe (talk) 21:23, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- There may not be that many deliberately caused occurrences, but the ones that take place are typically very high profile. To mis-classify these important articles from the outset, and possibly for years, is wrong, IMO. Also, the current category of "flights" for airline occurrences is very neutral: it simply implies that something occurred on an airline flight to make it notable. To change it to "occurrence" would make technical sense, but would be less reader-friendly. To change it to "accident" or "incident" (assuming there were fatalities, serious injuries or damage) would be plain wrong, and a step backwards. Crum375 (talk) 23:09, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'm afraid you are trying to close the barn door after a very large herd of horses has run off. As it stands, all categories for things going wrong with airplanes, accidentally or on purpose, trace back to Category:Aviation accidents and incidents directly or through Category:Accidents and incidents involving airliners. Mangoe (talk) 14:45, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
- This was raised above, so it's obviously a wider problem that just airliners. But Wikipedia is not a barn, and a wiki is designed for continuous improvement. As it happens, airline occurrences are usually the most prominent with the widest press coverage (and probably most reader hits), so we should make sure they are correct first. I agree that other categories need fixing, but two wrongs don't make a right. In any case, the current "flight" terminology is correct and logical, but if we need to change it, let's change it to something better, not worse. Crum375 (talk) 19:09, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'm afraid you are trying to close the barn door after a very large herd of horses has run off. As it stands, all categories for things going wrong with airplanes, accidentally or on purpose, trace back to Category:Aviation accidents and incidents directly or through Category:Accidents and incidents involving airliners. Mangoe (talk) 14:45, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
- There may not be that many deliberately caused occurrences, but the ones that take place are typically very high profile. To mis-classify these important articles from the outset, and possibly for years, is wrong, IMO. Also, the current category of "flights" for airline occurrences is very neutral: it simply implies that something occurred on an airline flight to make it notable. To change it to "occurrence" would make technical sense, but would be less reader-friendly. To change it to "accident" or "incident" (assuming there were fatalities, serious injuries or damage) would be plain wrong, and a step backwards. Crum375 (talk) 23:09, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- In the short term, if there is doubt then we can classify them as "accidents/incidents"; if the analysis changes, we change the category to match. After all, we move species articles around based on taxonomic changes all the time. My impression again is that the number of genuinely problematic cases is too small to justify shaping the whole scheme around them. Mangoe (talk) 21:23, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
(unindent) Actually, upon reflection I think we need to ignore the FAA/ICAO/NTSB and use the words to mean what they normally mean, and explain the special terminological meanings in the parent categories. That way we can include all the dubious cases without having to commit to a subcategorization. Mangoe (talk) 19:01, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- The problem is that we have to ensure the proper terminology inside the articles proper, as well as in lists of articles, because we rely on the ICAO and NTSB as our most authoritative sources. To have cat names conflicting with article content or the highest quality sources would be counterproductive. Crum375 (talk) 19:24, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- They are not authorities on English usage. Mangoe (talk) 20:04, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- True, but they are authorities on content. So if there is a conflict, our goal should be to avoid it wherever possible, to prevent confusion. Crum375 (talk) 20:55, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- They are not authorities on English usage. Mangoe (talk) 20:04, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
Category:Thee Silver Mt. Zion Memorial Orchestra & Tra-La-La Band albums
- The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
- The result of the discussion was: rename. Good Ol’factory (talk) 07:45, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
- Propose renaming Category:Thee Silver Mt. Zion Memorial Orchestra & Tra-La-La Band albums to Category:Thee Silver Mt. Zion albums
- Nominator's rationale: Per main article. The band's schtick is to subtly change their name roughly for each new album or tour, but this is the atomistic version of their name. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:20, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- Support The band did use the full name when I saw them on tour last month, but it makes sense to have it as the "short" version. Lugnuts (talk) 06:40, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
- The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.