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A request for arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution on Wikipedia. The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and review previous decisions. The entire process is governed by the arbitration policy. For information about requesting arbitration, and how cases are accepted and dealt with, please see guide to arbitration.
Please make your request in the appropriate section:
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Requests for arbitration
Parts of Jerusalem that are geographically in North West Jerusalem
Initiated by TiberiasTiberias (talk) at 17:23, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
Involved parties
- TiberiasTiberias (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log), filing party
- Sean.hoyland (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
- Dailycare (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
- Nableezy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
- Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
- Diff. 1 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sean.hoyland&diff=546576423&oldid=546576279
- Diff. 2 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Dailycare&diff=546576442&oldid=546576335
- Diff 3 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Nableezy&diff=546576364&oldid=546572063
- Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried
Ramot is geographically in North West Jerusalem, although politically some consider it East Jerusalem. I believe this statement shows 2 different issues, one geographically and one politically. I understand politically some consider it to be Est Jerusalem, but also understand many do not. That is why politically I show both points of view - some consider it political East Jerusalem and some do not.
Even the ones who consider it East Jerusalem for political purposes can see on a map that is it geographically both North and West Jerusalem. When I get in a cab with a Palestinian/Arab/Muslim cab driver and tell him to take me to East Jerusalem, he will not take he anywhere near Ramot. Even the Palestinian/Arab/Muslim people who actually live in Jerusalem, know geographically the difference between East Jerusalem and North West Jerusalem.
There are many sources calling Ramot "East Jerusalem" and there are many calling it "NorthWest Jerusalem" also.
Here is a link from a Pro-Palestinian website describing Ramot as "Located northwest of Jerusalem city."
Here is a link from the Jerusalem Municipality - Ramot "marks the north-west boundary of the city"
Wikipedia defines East Jerusalem as "East Jerusalem or Eastern Jerusalem refer to the parts of Jerusalem captured and annexed by Jordan after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War[citation needed] and then captured and annexed by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War". Ramot does not fall into that definition. It was never captured nor annexed by Jordan. It was not captured and annexed by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War. It was a demilitarized zone. It would seem that Ramot was never East Jerusalem.
Statement by {Party 1}
Statement by {Party 2}
Statement by {Party 3}
Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Parts of Jerusalem that are geographically in North West Jerusalem : Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter <0/2/0/1>
Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse/other)
- Comment: This appears to be a pure content dispute, and might better be addressed by a third opinion or some form of mediation. Unless subsequent commenters can show that there is a behavioural element to this disagreement, I will likely decline. Risker (talk) 23:14, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
- Decline Please see Risker's advice on how to proceed through the appropriate dispute resolution channels. NW (Talk) 23:17, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
- Decline per Risker and NuclearWarfare. Kirill [talk] 01:28, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Argentine History
Initiated by Lecen (talk) at 10:00, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Involved parties
- Lecen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log), filing party
- Cambalachero (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
- Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
- Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried
- Talk:Juan Manuel de Rosas (for a general view)
- Talk:Juan Manuel de Rosas#Third opinion (WP:3O)
- Talk:Juan Manuel de Rosas#RfC: Use of Nationalist/Revisionist sources on Juan Manuel de Rosas (RfC)
- Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard [2]
- Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Juan Manuel de Rosas (failed mediation)
Statement by Lecen
Summary of the problem as I see it:
Cambalachero has been systematically distorting historical facts in several articles by using as sources Argentine Fascist historians (the so-called in Argentina "Nationalists/Revisionists"), to skew articles toward that viewpoint. The result has been whitewashed takes on the subjects of several articles, e.g., the brutal dictator Juan Manuel de Rosas (1793-1877), for example, has become in the hands of Cambalachero a democratic and liberal leader. In this instance, the problem has been compounded with the creation and expansion by him of sub-articles to reinforce the appearance of legitimacy to a minority and politically motivated viewpoint. Biographical articles about the aforementioned fascist-linked historians have even been created that give the false impression that they are reliable authors with views that are respected and reflected by mainstream historians.
Insistence on presenting an unrepresentative view is counterproductive and harms the credibility of such articles. We are not talking about a Wikipedian who has been arguing an alternative point of view backed by legitimate authors, but rather about PoV being zealously promoted and maintained through the use of dubious (sometimes spurious) sources that often promote a political agenda. This is serious: it's the reliability of Wikipedia at stake. I ask the Arbitration Committee to do something to resolve this serious matter. If possible, with topic ban.
To understand who were the Argentine Fascist "Nationalists/Revisionists" and see just a few examples of Cambalachero's conduct when editing articles, see the following topics:
What was the Argentine Nationalism/Revisionism movement?
The Nacionalismo (Nationalism) was a far-right wing political movement that appeared in Argentina in the 1920s and reached its apex in the 1930s. it was the Argentine national equivalent to Nazism (in Germany), Fascism (in Italy and in Spain) and Integralism (in Brazil and in Portugal). The Argentine Nationalism was an authoritarian,[1] anti-Semitic,[2] racist[3] and misogynistic political movement that also supported eugenics.[4] The Revisionismo (Revisionism) was the historiographical wing of the Argentine Nationalism.[5]
What was the Argentine Nationalism’s main goal? It was to establish a national dictatorship: "In Rosas and his system, the Nationalists discovered the kind of state and society they wished to restore. Rosas had ruled as a military dictator..."[6] Rosas and his regime served as models of what the Argentine Nationalists wanted for Argentina.[7] This is where the Revisionism came in handy: the Revionists’ main purpose within the Nationalism was to rehabilitate Rosas’ image.[8]
Did Cambalachero try to hide that mainstream historiography see Rosas as a dictator?
Cambalachero tried to hide any mention that Rosas was a dictator as can be seen on his edits on Platine War and on Juan Manuel de Rosas. See:
- Changed "Dictator" to "Governor".[3]
- Removed "...as dictator" from the sentence "...he governed the country for more than 20 years as dictator".[4]
- Removed "...as dictator" from the sentence "He governed the province of Buenos Aires and ruled over the Argentine Confederation from 1829 until 1852 as dictator".[5]
He tried to convince others from removing anything the he regarded demeaning to Rosas on Platine War's talk page. When no one supported him:
- Cambalachero removed both the "GA" status from the article and the link to Wikiproject Argentina.[6]
- He also removed any mention of the Platine War from other articles (removed: "Rosas also declared war on Brazil in late 1851, starting the Platine War, which led to the defeat of the Argentine Confederation by coalition of Entre Ríos, Corrientes, Brazil and Uruguay").[7]
Since he could not change what the article said about Rosas, he tried to remove as many wikilinks he could that led to Platine War. I can give other examples.
Did Cambalachero attempt to white-wash Rosas?
Juan Manuel de Rosas executed around 2,000 political enemies and he "was responsible for the terror: contemporaries affirmed it, and historians agree", said biographer John Lynch.[9] Cambalachero dismissed the killings and according to him the people executed under Rosas' regime were petty criminals, mutinied soldiers, spies and traitors. According to Cambalachero, the allegations of executions of political enemies were originated from a fake list paid by the French firm and was no more than a fabricated excuse made by European powers "to justify a declaration of war".[8] Cambalachero also created an article called Blood tables to debunke the allegations of political executions.[9] The article has only two sources: one book written by José María Rosa and published in 1974 and the other by Carlos Smith and published in 1936. Both authors are Argentine Nationalists/Revisionists.
Rosas owned slaves[10] and he "was severe in his treatment of slaves, and he favored the lash to keep them obedient and preserve social order."[11] And more: "Yet in the final analysis the demagogy of Rosas among the blacks and mulattoes did nothing to alter their position in the society around them."[12] But when you read the article it says: "Although slavery was not abolished during his rule, Rosas sponsored liberal policies allowing them greater liberties". I complained about in the article's talk page (see here). Cambalachero did not care and mostly ignored what I said and did not try to correct the error. According to him: "I don't see a contradiction".[10] Almost three years earlier, he removed one piece of text that had a negative view of Rosas and his relation with slaves. He replaced it with "Detractors of Rosas accused him of having afroamerican slaves".[11] The author given as source is Pacho O'Donnell, yet another Argentine Nationalist/Revisionist (or, more precisely, a "Neorevisionist").
What Cambalachero has done when asked to show which sources say that Rosas was not a dictator?
Examples: |
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Noleander, who volunteered as WP:3O, said: “article currently contains virtually no mention that many historians consider him a dictator, so some white-washing has been definitely been going on”. He also said: “User Lecen provided very strong sources showing that mainstream historians do consider him a dictator, so using the encyclopedia's voice seems warranted. The other editors (MarshalN20 and Cambalachero) claim that the "he is not a dictator" viewpoint is equally well represented by historians (and thus that the encyclopedia's voice should not be used per WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV) but when pressed for sources, they tend to obfuscate and stonewall (TLDR, etc)”.[12] Cambalachero gave a lengthy reply. Noleander said in return: “I asked you to provide your 3 or 4 best sources that asserted that Rosas was not a dictator, and you did not provide a single one.” When met with silence Noleander asked: “Once again, for the fifth time, I ask: Can you provide a few reliable sources that state something like: ‘Contrary to what some historians say, Rosas was not a dictator because blah blah ..’? My ‘obfuscate and stonewall’ comment is accurate, because the prior 4 times I've asked that same question, I've received lengthy replies that did not respond to the question. Most recently, immediately above in Cambalachero's reply (where he lists five sources that do not even mention the word ‘dictator’.”[13] All that Cambalachero could say was that we were “running in circles here”, to which Noleander replied: “No, we are not running in circles. (1) Despite being asked five times, you still have not provided any sources that rebut the numerous modern historians that claim Rosas was a dictator; (2) The sentence in the article you cite (‘There are divided opinions on the topic: Domingo Faustino Sarmiento ... while José de San Martín ...’) presents the opinions of two of Rosas contemporaries (politicians from the 19th century). The proposed compromise is suggesting adding material based on the analysis of modern, objective historians.”[14] Finally, after a long time, Cambalachero brought five scholars to back his claims (but he never said what were the pages and from which books were they taken).[15] Who were them? Manuel Galvez (1882-1964), Arturo Jauretche (1901-1974), Ernesto Palacio (1900-1979), Jaime Galvez (unknown birth and death, books published in the 1950s) and Pacho O'Donnell (1941-). All of them are Argentine Nationalists/Revisionists. And four out of five are dead for over 35 years. The only one who is alive (O’Donnell) is not a historian, but a doctor of psychiatry and psychoanalysis, a writer and a playwright. |
What has Cambalachero done when faced with the most respected biography of Rosas which has been published so far?
Examples: |
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I pointed out to Cambalachero that it is written on Wikipedia: Verifiability: "Because this is the English Wikipedia, English-language sources are preferred over non-English ones, assuming English sources of equal quality and relevance are available." The best available is the biography written by John Lynch. The first edition was published in 1981 with the name "Argentine Dictator: Juan Manuel de Rosas". The second edition came in 2001 under the title "'Argentine Caudillo: Juan Manuel de Rosas". It has been used by Encyclopædia Britannica as the main source about Rosas, which it considers the "definitive" biography (see here). Hugh M. Hamill called it an "[a]lready classic biography of Argentina's most significant caudillo."[13] Daniel K. Lewis regarded it "[a]n outstanding work on the dictator and his historical significance".[14] Michael Goebel said that it is "a classic work about Rosas in English".[15] Donald F. Stevens called it "[t]he essential biography of Rosas by a distinguished historian".[16] Ricardo Piglia regarded it an "excelent account" or Rosas' career.[17] I brought to Cambalachero’s attention the existence of the aforementioned biography, but he never took it seriously. He said that the “historiography of Rosas is a topic in itself, with books about that specific topic, and none of them considered Lynch even worth a single mention.”[16] He single handedly dismissed Lynch’s work and regarded it (based solely on his personal opinion) as “faulty”,[17] full of “contradictions”,[18] the opinions given as “mere political analysis”[19] and accused it of “plagiarism”[20] and that “Lynch merely repeats misconceptions he read somewhere else, instead of investigating them himself (as any serious historian, not a mere divulgator, would do)”.[21] In fact, Cambalachero considered Lynch’s book “outdated” and for that reason it should be ignored.[22] Cambalachero was talking about a book published in 2001 while he (as shown above) has been using as sources books written by Nationalists/Revisionists who are dead for over 35 years! --Lecen (talk) 16:49, 20 March 2013 (UTC) |
How was Juan Manuel de Rosas seen in Argentina?
Examples: |
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Writing in 1930, The Hispanic American Historical Review said: “Among the enigmatical personages of the ‘Age of Dictators’ in South America none played a more espetacular role than the Argentine dictator, Juan Manuel de Rosas, whose gigantic and ominous figure bestrode the Plata River for more than twenty years. So despotic was his power that Argentine writers have themselves styled this age of their history as ‘The Tyranny of Rosas’.”[23] Thirty and one years later, in 1961, Rosas’ image had not improved at all, according to the same The Hispanic American Historical Review: “Rosas is a negative memory in Argentina. He left behind him the black legend of Argentine history-a legend which Argentines in general wish to forget. There is no monument to him in the entire nation; no park, plaza, or street bears his name.”[24] (p.514) |
How has Rosas been seen in the past 25 years by historians?
Here is a list of what historians have told about Rosas in the past 25 years (emphasis added): |
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References and Bibliography: |
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- Reply to SilkTork: We are not talking in here about two legitimate points of views (even if opposing point of views). We are talking in here about a user who has written several articles based on Fascists authors. It would be the same as if we look at American Civil War and find out that the U.S. South fought for freedom and slaves were happy to be slaves. Or that Hitler was a democrat and that no Jews were killed. What Cambalachero is doing it not presenting an alternative point of view. He is pushing an agenda. If the Arbitration request is accepted, I'll be able to show how Cambalachero has been working all along. Proposing a mediation won't work. He won't accept it. He didn't accept it the first time, he won't do it now. He may even say that he will, only to drop out again. The Arbcom has to decide whether or not someone is allowed to ruin Wikipedia's reputation. All I'm asking is to have the request accepted. Once that occurs, if the Arbcom decides that Fascist sources are acceptable to corrupt several articles across Wikipedia, then it's fine. I won't bother anyone any longer. But the Arbcom cannot clean its own hands and ignore such a grave matter. Lecen (talk) 16:29, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Cambalachero
As arbitration does not focus on article content but on user's conduct, I will skip that topic. Before any actual discussion tooks place (only an attempted change of the lead image), he requested article ownership here and here, and clarified here and here: he wants to write the article alone and without needing to find consensus for edits that he knows will be controversial. Here and here he tries to describe me as an antisemite or nazi sympathizer. He posted provocative threads here and here, that I did not answer to prevent unneeded drama, and jumped to dispute resolution here (immediately closed here). He created a huge report at the talk page, talking about details from all the myriad angles he could conceive (no single edit to link, but it’s still visible at the talk page), named "About the lack of neutrality, the biased view and arbitrary choice of facts added into this article". He said "done" here and requested third opinion here, just 8 minutes afterwards. I divided his thread in subtopics and begin to answer: he made only a pair of replies here and here and jumped to Dispute Resolution again here, closed again here. Finally, some other users began to join the discussion. However, Lecen rejected all proposals and compromises (either from me or from other editors) that were not a flat-out support to his proposal as originally conceived. See here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here. He tried to influence the discussions by trying to convince the users joining it at their talk pages, for example here, here and here. He had an edit war with MarshalN20, who rejected any authorship on a draft I wrote (which I indeed wrote alone): see here, here and here; Lecen justified that it was his own comment and should not be modified by anyone here. He resorted to tag bombing here, here and here, and later here. This led to full article protection here. When it expired, he began to actually work in the article, rewriting sections and adding images. Then I continued his work, editing some things here and there; he reverted everything (both his and my edits) here. He said here that I had "butchered the article beyond recognition" (sic). Another edit war ensued (I did not take part in it), and the article was protected again here. For the following section, I proposed here to work on a talk page draft and and move it to article space when we were all satisfied: Lecen never made any comment. He dropped the whole discussion, almost a month ago, and restarted it when I made a comment at a FAC of another article here.
I have spotted him lying at least two times, here (providing a quotation with a removed part, which completely changes the meaning) and here (concealing information about a historian). Lecen did not read the book in Google books, he owns the physical book, as he had scanned the front page at File:El maldito de la historia oficial.jpg. In both cases I provided scans from the book to prove its acual content. Requires Spanish, but it’s there, visible, you don’t have to "trust" me. There are several other examples within Wikipedia: note one right here, he blames me for the expansion of the article on Manuel Gálvez, when if you check the edits you will notice that my edits are minor and the actual writer of most of the article was User:Keresaspa.
He also pointed here that neither of us was willing to "give up on each other's view". That's not my case, I would have no problem in working with him as adults and rational people (but if he thinks that I would be "butchering" his work, it's his problem, not mine), but the message actually points his own motivation: he said that he will not give up his point of view. In other words, battleground mentality.
As for the main discussion: Lecen claims time and again the existence of a certain academic consensus, that would require us to ignore the authors that do not follow it. I pointed at Talk:Juan Manuel de Rosas#Arbitrary break 2 that, according to policies and guidelines, the existence of such a consensus must have a specific source that says so clearly and directly, it can not be decided by assesment of Wikipedia users. If there is no such academic consensus then WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV ensues. Lecen tried to derail the discussion, but I insisted time and again that he pointed sources with the alleged consensus he claims. He never did, and dropped from the discussion, until today, until I pointed some flaws of an article he nominated for FAC.
Note about sources: Juan Manuel de Rosas#Criticism and historical perspective, Historiography of Juan Manuel de Rosas and Repatriation of Juan Manuel de Rosas's body use only English-speaking sources or Argentine sources wich are not revisionist (except for minimal things such as quotations). All the claims contained in those articles can be checked in such sources. And I told several times in the discussion that I had no problem in working with all sources (for example, here). In fact I have already cited Isidoro Ruiz Moreno, who provides many analysis critizing Rosas. It is Lecen who rejects to work with sources he disagrees with, with a rationale that is not found anywhere. Cambalachero (talk) 13:53, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
- As you can see, we have barely began to talk, and Lecen has already played the Nazi card. Even calling me an Holocaust denier (a very grave personal offense, that I hope he will apologize for). The comparison of Rosas and Hitler is a pointless association fallacy, hardly worth a serious reply; but I can easily give one if it is deemed necessary. Cambalachero (talk) 02:44, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
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- We have been though this before. Lecen posts a giant report that goes in all the myriad ways, I try to answer to all the myriad ways mentioned, and the result becomes an unmanageable WP:TLDR. The huge block of text that Lecen has just posted surely goes way beyond the pair of points requested. So, I will halt the discussion here: if a member of the Arbcom requests me to answer to that huge text, I will do it. If they consider it to be too long, dispersed or focused in content rather than user misconduct, I will wait for Lecen to fix it, and then answer. By the way, I'm still waiting for an apology for calling me an Holocaust denier. Cambalachero (talk) 01:13, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Doncram
If this case is accepted, I strongly believe it should be not given name "Cambalachero" suggested by editor Lecen, but rather should be given a neutral name, rather than one suggested by the first combatant to get to Arbitration. A natural candidate would be "Lecen vs. Cambalachero", I suppose, or perhaps something neutral and topical about "Negotiations between 2 editors" or some other description.
I submit that it is 100% absurd to believe that an arbitration proceeding is not affected by its name. Obviously persons having grudges against a named person will be more likely to show up and introduce evidence, is just one way that the naming has an effect.
I have no familiarity with either of these parties and am 100% uninvolved. --doncram 00:24, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
Comment from The ed17
This arbitration request stems from a long-term dispute between two prolific editors. At its heart, I believe it revolves around Lecen's assertions that Cambalachero is misrepresenting or omitting sources that have negative views of the leaders of Argentina. That would mean that this could be narrowly accepted as a user conduct case, though it will be extremely difficult to separate user conduct from content, as you will have to decide whether Cambalachero's content misrepresents the mainstream historiographic views of individuals like Juan Manuel de Rosas. If so, that is actionable through a topic ban or mentor. If not, the case will probably require some sort of interaction ban. Both outcomes are within the committee's remit and would solve the dispute at hand, but the committee will need to decide whether this is too close to its content borderline. Please note that I have collaborated with Lecen on two Brazil-related articles (South American dreadnought race and Minas Geraes-class battleship), but have had almost no part in this dispute. With regards to NYB's comment, while I have done some work in Latin American history, I wouldn't consider myself a subject matter expert on its nineteenth century. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 07:12, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
- @Lecen, Roger Davies. While I think Lecen knows that these sources aren't allowed on the English Wikipedia except under very limited circumstances (e.g. Historiography in the Soviet Union), I think it is a roundabout way of looking for reassurance that the committee will take the time to read through the entirety of the evidence, as it will be complex and possibly lengthy. Historiography—which is essentially what Lecen will have to do to prove his claims—tends to be like that. As an aside to Lecen, it may be helpful to define what "fascist literature" is, given the plethora of meanings the word can have today. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 01:09, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
Comment from MarshalN20
This arbitration request should not be accepted. Please allow me to, briefly state why:
- Background: I participated in the dispute between Cambalachero and Lecen in the Juan Manuel de Rosas article. My attempt was to serve as a mediator to both parties, but (along the way) drifted towards Cambalachero's position. I have continuously attempted to help both editors productively focus their work on the article, but (for the most part) they spend their time having tedious discussions on the article's talk page (more similar to a WP:FORUM than anything else). Most of these discussions are caused by Lecen, who uses ad hominem attacks on Cambalachero and the sources of Cambalachero.
- Why this case should not be accepted: Lecen has done next to nothing to refute Cambalachero in the article itself. As Cambalachero notes, Lecen has a clear intent to WP:OWN the article and edit it as he likes it and without input from any other editor (especially an editor who holds a distinct point of view from his). For example, after Cambalachero edited parts of the article that Lecen had previously edited (see [25]), Lecen decided to revert all changes both he and Cambalchero had done on the article (see [26]); I disagreed with Lecen, restored the article and improved it (see [27]), and then Lecen again decided to remove everything (see [28]). This "incident" went on for a couple of more edits.
- Recommendation: Both editors need to work out this problem on their own. Lecen needs to accept that Wikipedia is a group project (which, at times, will involve him working with people of different viewpoints to his). If Cambalachero does have nationalist intentions to whitewash Argentine history, the best way to overcome his position is by using better sources in the article. The WP:BRD process needs to take effect prior to anything else.
Regards.--MarshalN20 | Talk 13:30, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
- Adversarial (X v. Y) names are not used for modern (post-2006) arbcom cases. I pinged the arbs about this request. --Guerillero | My Talk 03:10, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
- It could easily be called Argentine History, of course. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 05:11, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
-
- ... which I basically just did so. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 08:29, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Argentine History: Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter <0/3/1/3>
Vote key: (Accept/decline/recuse/other)
- Content disagreements are not addressed by this Committee; user misconduct, which may include disruptive editing and misrepresentation of sources, is addressed, when other dispute methods have failed. We could use some input here from previously uninvolved editors with subject-matter expertise as to which side of the line this dispute falls on. Newyorkbrad (talk) 03:19, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
- @Lecen. Could you please supply some examples of contentious claims referenced to Spanish sources available online ... ? Ideally, this would be as an English/Spanish parallel text. Once that's done, it would be good to get Cambalachero's comments. As a further thought, isn't the suggestion here that the sources have been cherry-picked rather than misrepresented? Roger Davies talk 18:11, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
- Lecen: best to keep it as brief as you can but it would be good to see some actual examples (say, four or five) to help us all in deciding what to do. Roger Davies talk 18:36, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
- Recuse. AGK [•] 23:03, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
- Decline. I'm seeing this as a content dispute. Both editors have worked on the Juan Manuel de Rosas article since 2009, and there is disagreement over the content, and the two parties have been discussing the matter. Sometimes it can be difficult to reach a solution; however, it is not ArbCom's place to make a decision on content. ArbCom looks into conduct disputes, and I'm not seeing where there are conduct issues. There has been a suggestion that Lecen is gaming the system to get what he wants, though when a user is raising a concern and not getting satisfaction, it is entirely appropriate to go to the next level. I note that Cambalachero became inactive at the start of the mediation request, and became active again when the request was closed. That is an unfortunate coincidence, but it happens. As Cambalachero is active again now, perhaps another attempt at Formal mediation could be tried? SilkTork ✔Tea time 16:19, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
- Comment Unless at least one other editor is willing to state that they agree with Lecen's statement, I am inclined to decline the request. The Committee can and should be willing to address serious breaches of content policy, but right now I have no way to fairly evaluate whether any breaches have occurred. NW (Talk) 23:19, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
- Decline and encourage all parties to try the mediation route once again. Anyone who thinks that mediation might be time-consuming hasn't been involved in an arbitration case. Risker (talk) 23:20, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
- Decline per SilkTork and Risker. Kirill [talk] 01:31, 24 March 2013 (UTC)
Requests for clarification and amendment
Amendment request: GoodDay
Initiated by GoodDay (talk) 15:12, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Statemant by GoodDay
I fully understand the reason why I was restricted from the diacritics topic on June 14, 2012 via a report by my mentor Steven Zhang in concurrance with my other mentor Danbarnesdavies. It wasn't because of my stance on diacritics, but rather because of my conduct/behavour towards editors involved with the topic. I wish to have my restriction amended, so that I can impliment WP:HOCKEY's directive on North American related hockey articles. In particular, NHL non-bio articles & templates. I don't wish to get involved with RM, guidelines or any non-hockey discussions concerning diacritcs. Again, I fully accept that my past conduct was in error. GoodDay (talk) 15:12, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
To reiterate, I wish only to hide diacritics on the player entries at the 30 NHL team roster templates (example:Template:Boston Bruins roster), in concurrance with WP:HOCKEY's directive on having 'no diacritics' in North American based hockey articles. GoodDay (talk) 23:25, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
I've never been topic-banned from diacritics, NW. I'm restricted from them, which means I can't mention them at my talkpage.
I'm not nor have I ever been topic-banned from hockey articles. But my restriction does 'prevent' me from carrying out WP:HOCKEY's directive (which hasn't been carried out lately by the WP:HOCKEY membership). GoodDay (talk) 00:10, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
You (the arbitrators) may find this a tad funny or difficulat to believe, but until yesterday, I was hesistant to request an appeal. I believed that I would've been reported at AE for violating my restriction & thus ended up with a 6-month block or a site ban. GoodDay (talk) 00:16, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
General comment: If I may point out, my restriction is a paradox. I can only demonstrate to you that I won't fight over diacritics (personal attacks), if you'll lift the restriction. Othewise, the restriction being continued, removes that opportunity for me to prove myself to you. GoodDay (talk) 00:29, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
Question by A Quest for Knowledge
Is GoodDay allowed to edit hockey-related articles if they stay away from diacritics? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 23:22, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
- Given NW's statement below that GoodDay is still able to edit hockey-related articles if they stay away from diacritics, I don't see any reason to lift this restriction. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:06, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Rich Farmbrough
Provided only that it is accepted that "hide diacritics on the player entries at the 30 NHL team roster templates" is non-contentious it would seem churlish not to at least loosen the restriction to specifically allow that, and to allow Good Day to respond to comments relating to those edits. If even that discussion should be seen as too risky, then allow him to make a standard response, referring interlocutors to his mentors, or to the hockey project.
Grasp this opportunity to make a positive step with both hands!
Rich Farmbrough, 03:40, 22 March 2013 (UTC).
Statement by Resolute
@Rich - Given the number of Eastern European players under the scope of the hockey project, and given how contentious the matter of squiggly marks are, we reached a compromise several years ago, absent a Wiki-wide consensus, to show diacritics only on player articles and 'international' articles. As the NHL has consistently dropped them, the other side of the compromise was that NHL-related articles (North America-based articles, actually) would hide them. GoodDay is asking here for permission to enforce that compromise.
I ride the fence on the idea of lifting GoodDay's topic ban but would lean against supporting his petition at this time. Aside from his breaching experiments shortly after the ban was enacted, he has successfully stayed away from the area, including (to his credit) avoiding being baited into the area by editors seemingly on his side. However, the very nature of this request indicates a continuing obsession with "non-English letters" that helped drive him into that arbitration case. IMO, diacritics aren't the root of GoodDay's problem, they merely focus it. They are a symptom of an obsessive-compulsive need for things to match his personal world view. I think GoodDay is sincere in his request and at this point wants to lift the ban merely to "fix" some articles to bring them in line with the hockey project's compromise. But I also believe that the ultimate result of lifting the ban would be to give him the rope to hang himself with. I've had good and bad interactions with GoodDay, and the bad ones are fueled by what I perceive as his being a drama junkie. His obsession with diacritics is likely only going to lead to a site ban if he is allowed to edit within the topic area again, if only because he enjoys being in the middle of controversy. Resolute 13:45, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
Clerk notes
Arbitrator views and comments
- The restriction at issue is remedy 1 in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GoodDay, in which GoodDay was prohibited from making edits concerning the use or non-use of diacritical marks, because he had been engaged in a series of controversies concerning when such marks should be used. At this stage, I think it best that GoodDay stay away from this area, even though he indicates that he accepts and is ready to implement a consensus that was reached. The non-substantive changes to names contained in hockey articles to which GoodDay refers can be made by other editors, and there is no threat to the integrity of the encyclopedia if it takes some time to make them all. Thus, I don't see the benefit to GoodDay's getting involved again with this aspect of editing that would outweigh the reasons it's best for him not to. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:32, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with Newyorkbrad, and I don't think I have anything important to add to what has already been said. GoodDay seems to have edited successfully in recent months (though I recall there was difficult with his edits in the months after the arbitration case was closed), but I do not see compelling grounds here to vacate his restriction. I would deny this appeal. AGK [•] 23:01, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
- GoodDay, there was significant dispute about your behavior last time with regards to diacritics, to such a degree that ArbCom felt the most effective solution would just be to topic ban you from them. I don't see any reason to change that now, per Newyorkbrad's last few sentences.
- I see no reason to lift this restriction at this time. Courcelles 00:58, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
- As per NYB, editors who have less baggage in regard to diacritical marks are probably best suited to be making the edits that GoodDay mentions. And probably as part of general editing of an article, rather than as a focused mass article edit session which might be seen as contentious or politicised. This is a delicate area which can flare up. SilkTork ✔Tea time 18:48, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
Clarification request: Procedural issues at at WP:AE
Initiated by Gatoclass (talk) at 04:00, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
- Gatoclass (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
- Sandstein (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Notification: [33]
Statement by Gatoclass
Firstly, my apologies to the Committee for adding to your current workload. However, hopefully these issues can be resolved quickly and with a minimum of fuss.
This request relates to a number of procedural issues that have recently arisen at WP:AE, which I think are probably best handled by the Committee. There are four in total—the first two raised at AE by Sandstein and the latter two raised here now by myself:
1/ Sandstein recently declined to act in a request regarding breach of 1RR at AE as he sees the 1RR restriction on certain pages subject to discretionary sanctions as having been a "community ... decision" rather than made by an administrator acting by authority of, and with stated reference to, those discretionary sanctions. The issue of whether or not 1RR can legitimately be adjudicated at AE therefore needs clarification. I don't think Sandstein himself objects to 1RR being adjudicated at AE; he apparently just wants a clear statement of the principle, so I am referring the matter here. The discussion regarding this issue can be found in the "Results" section of the recently closed Soosim request.
2/ Sandstein again declined to act on a recent request on the basis that the respondent had yet to receive an official warning, in spite of the fact that the respondent was a named party to the original Arbitration case.[34] As I have always taken the view that warnings are not required when a user is already clearly aware that discretionary sanctions apply in a topic area—a principle that I believe has been upheld in at least one previous Arbcom clarification request (when it was decided that participants in a previous AE request with regard to a particular topic area under discretionary sanctions don't need a formal warning)—so again this should not be a difficult matter to resolve, but I think it needs resolution so that we can avoid similar debates in future.
3/ In a recent appeal against the length of an AE sanction by a sanctioned user, Sandstein commented on the appeal in the "Result" section in spite of having participated in the adjudication of the request which led to the original sanction.[35] Though I don't think there is any formal prohibition against doing this, IIRC the convention at AE has always been that adjudicators of the original case confine their comments to the "Statements" section of an appeal. Regardless of precedent, however, I believe that it is a sound principle for admins to follow to allow appeals of cases they have adjudicated to be handled by different administrators, just as appeals in legal proceedings are handled by a different court made up of different judges. Therefore I am requesting that Arbcom formally endorse this principle, as I think users have a right to have their appeals reviewed by administrators independent of the original decision.
4/ In the same request referred to in 2/ above, Sandstein decided to issue a warning to the respondent before the request was concluded.[36][37] Since the outcome of a request is something to be decided by consensus of uninvolved administrators—whether it be no action, a reminder, an advisement, a warning, a topic ban etc.—I felt that issuance of this warning was out of process as it effectively pre-empts the consensus decision of the adjudicating administrators. I believe it is out of process even if the particular discussion looked to be heading to at least a warning for the respondent in any case. I am therefore requesting that Arbcom formally recognize the principle that remedies not be implemented in AE requests until discussion by uninvolved admins has concluded and a consensus view reached.
Thank you for your consideration. Gatoclass (talk) 04:00, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you Sandstein for your quick and comprehensive response. I will not respond to all the points you raise as I am trying to keep this submission brief, except to concede that you are probably correct to say that there is no formal requirement for consensus amongst uninvolved admins involved in adjudicating an AE request, and that I was mistaken to suggest otherwise. However, I don't think the current wording of the standard discretionary sanctions was intended to suggest that consensus amongst adjudicating admins can be ignored or pre-empted by administrative fiat, and I think it would be unwise for obvious reasons to endorse such a principle. Gatoclass (talk) 10:24, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
@Newyorkbrad: I am in agreement with the general thrust of your comments. With regard to issue 1/, it is of no consequence to me whether or not 1RR is enforceable under AN3 as well as at AE, so long as there is no confusion that 1RR can be enforced at AE as a legitimate AE remedy. With regard to your comment about "elapsed time" since the original case, I can accept the argument that a new warning may be the most appropriate response after a long period since the last warning, just as long as a new warning isn't considered a necessary precondition for imposition of a sanction. With regard to your comment on 4/, I would agree that an editor still actively engaged in disruptive editing might justifiably be sanctioned at any point by any admin without the necessity of establishing consensus, and that such a sanction may even at times obviate the need for further action at the AE request. However, such action should only be permissible IMO when the editor concerned is continuing his disruptive editing even as the request proceeds; I can't conceive of any other reason why pre-emption of consensus might be considered appropriate. Perhaps I should also clarify that I have no issue with the notion of an admin imposing an AE sanction on his own outside of an AE request; just as long as remedies imposed as a result of AE requests themselves are imposed by consensus and not unilaterally. Gatoclass (talk) 15:38, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Penwhale
I have always held that 'if remedy affecting a user is changed - and the remedy is updated/superseded or otherwise changed - then the user would be, by virtue of being affected by the previous remedy, affected by the new remedy. This is especially the case when the user is a party to the original case with the now-superseded remedy. As the user was informed of the update to the remedy, he should - at the very minimum - be considered "notified and warned" due to previous involvement.
I believe that we used to notify (and warn, if appropriate) people immediately in certain cases (though I cannot name one right off the top of my head) when the remedy would be DS/Article Probation/etc. Maybe this needs to be the default action. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 05:02, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Sandstein
Thanks, Gatoclass, for bringing these issues here for clarification. I apologize for being the originator of so many AE-related procedural questions lately; I suspect, that being a lawyer, I do have the tendency to see procedural problems where more practically minded people don't – and vice versa. I anticipate that we'll not be able to fully answer all questions here, but hopefully the issues raised here can be addressed in the general review of DS/AE procedure that I understand is forthcoming, and the answers codified on the appropriate pages.
1) Yes, my problem is not with 1RR as such, but rather what I think is the unclear legal (for lack of another word) status of Wikipedia:ARBPIA#General 1RR restriction. My understanding is that a restriction can be enforced through AE only if it was made with the authority of the Arbitration Committee, that is (a) by a majority decision of the full Committee, or (b) by an individual administrator as provided for by WP:AC/DS. The problem is that Wikipedia:ARBPIA#General 1RR restriction is not labeled as either. Although at one time it was apparently the subject of a Committee motion amending it, it is described on the case page as having been made "per community discussion and decision" – and community sanctions are not subject to AE. If the Committee could clarify what exactly the status of that restriction is, I'd appreciate it.
There's also another problem related to the legal status of that restriction. As written, the 1R restriction applies to all topic-area articles without requiring that users be first notified of it. I'm not sure that the authors of the restriction meant it to apply such that a new editor, who has no idea that there has been an arbitration case, or what arbitration and 1RR even mean, should be blocked without warning for making two reverts in a row to, say, the section Tel Aviv#Fashion, just because the article it is in "could be reasonably construed as being related to the Arab-Israeli conflict". As written, therefore, I suspect that the restriction is overbroad. Now, if it is a Committee decision, editors are bound by it nonetheless, although I assume that individual administrators (who have no duty to act on AE requests) can still decline to be the ones to enforce it. But if it is a discretionary sanction, then it is unenforceable if the user has not previously received the kind of warning described in WP:AC/DS#Warnings (e.g. in an edit notice) – and probably a specific warning about 1RR, too, rather than a general warning about the decision, because if the restriction is a discretionary sanction rather than a Committee decision, then it is not part of the decision proper.
2) As currently written, WP:AC/DS#Warnings provides that "prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning with a link to the decision authorizing sanctions". This wording does not make an exception for editors who were party to the original case or who are otherwise assumed to be aware of the case. Therefore, in a conservative interpretation of the wording so as not to accidentally overstep AE authority, I am of the view that a warning is still required even for such editors. Whether that makes any sense is another question, and one that is for the Committee to answer. I suspect that it has to do what the purpose of these "warnings" is supposed to be, a question that has come up a lot recently: If they are meant to serve only as notifications about the possibility of discretionary sanctions, then a separate notification to users who already know about the decision is superfluous. If however they are meant to warn the user to desist from a specific action, then there is still a point in requiring them to be issued to users who are aware of the decision. I understand that AGK is preparing a motion about precisely this question, which will hopefully resolve this.
3) That's indeed a thorny issue, and I would very much appreciate clarification (and, if needed, correction) from the Committee about this. I discussed it with another editor and suggested to AGK that it be also addressed in his upcoming motion. As I explain below, I think that Gatoclass misunderstands the AE process when he suggests that an administrator who comments on the merits of an enforcement request "participates in the adjudication of the request". Rather, the only person who adjudicates the request is the individual administrator who imposes a sanction, if any, in response to the request. Nonetheless, the question of whether an administrator who voiced an opinion about an enforcement request is involved (in the sense of WP:INVOLVED) in any future appeal is a valid one, made more difficult by the fact that there are currently very few, if any, rules about how an appeal at WP:AE is to be conducted.
In principle, I agree that it would be preferable, to prevent the appearance of bias, if an appeal were heard only by people who have not previously expressed an opinion about the matter. However, I think that there are also valid arguments for not considering an administrator in the situation I described to be involved:
- First, WP:INVOLVED excludes actions made in an administrative capacity (which I believe commenting on the merits of an AE request is) from triggering involvement, so technically an administrator who comments as uninvolved in a discussion about an AE request can be seen as remaining uninvolved in any followup discussion, including an appeal. (If not, would they also be considered involved in any future discussion about the same user, or even the same topic area? That would exhaust the admin pool pretty quickly).
- Second, there are few administrators who participate in AE, perhaps understandably given the amount of stress one can be exposed to in that role. This means that if commenting on a request excludes participation in a future appeals discussion, one of two things will happen:
-
- Either fewer administrators (or possibly none at all) comment on AE requests, so as not to exclude themselves from a future appeal. That is undesirable, as it will tend to reduce the quality of the decisions made. It will cause additional stress to whoever does make a decision, because when challenged about it they can't point to the support of colleagues. And it may also lead to an unwelcome division of labor among AE admins, where one group focuses on responding to requests and the other on second-guessing those decisions on appeal.
- Or, and this is the second possibility, it may result in there being too few uninvolved administrators to form a useful consensus about the outcome of any appeal, because most have already voiced an opinion about the initial request. In extremis, one remaining uninvolved administrator could by themselves overrule, on appeal, the unanimous opinion of five others who commented about the request being appealed.
I hope that the Committee's clarification will help define recusal rules that take these various concerns into account.
4) I think that Gatoclass is subject to a misconception when he says that "the outcome of a request is something to be decided by consensus of uninvolved administrators". No rule that I know of provides for this. Rather, all enforcement provisions that I know of, including WP:AC/DS, provide that "an uninvolved administrator" – singular – may act in enforcement, that is, without necessarily having to take into account anybody else's opinion. It is only as a matter of practice that administrators working at AE have become used to exchanging opinions about the merits of enforcement requests and possible courses of action before one of them acts on the enforcement request. That's obviously a good thing particularly in complicated cases, but it does not mean that discussion, much less a consensus, is required. In that sense, one administrator deciding to take action (in this case, issuing a warning, because I am of the view that it was required and not previously given, see point 2 above) does not preempt any other administrator from taking any other action that they deem possible and appropriate (such as a block), which I made a point of noting. However, a clarification about this aspect of AE procedure could also be helpful. Sandstein 07:43, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
- Update to 4): Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Procedures#Discretionary sanctions clarifies that "best practice includes seeking additional input prior to applying a novel sanction or when a reasonable, uninvolved editor may question whether the sanction is within the scope of the relevant case". This means, e contrario, that in all other (i.e. most) cases administrators are not expected (let alone required) by the Committee to discuss (and much less to seek consensus for) sanctions with others. Sandstein 09:32, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Statement by other user
I don't believe that a DS warning was originally meant as a sanction. That is, a person misbehaves, is warned, misbehaves again then recieves a sanction. I think the word 'warning' was always meant as closer to the definition of 'notification'. That is a person who has not necessarily misbehaved is warned that there are rules which they may not be aware of.
This follows with the logic that it is unfair to sanction someone who reasonably was not aware of the special rules. They must be warned (notified) of the rules before a sanction can fairly be applied. So any knowledge of the special rules counts as a person being "warned".
Treating it as a sanction unfairly provides a procedural Get out of Jail Free card for people aware of the rules, yet not warned (sanctioned) because a warning is mandatory.
Really, Arbcom could solve this AND the Who Can Issue Warnings? issue by clearly separating warning (sanction) and warning (notification). Any editor can warn (notify), an uninvolved admin is required for a warning (sanction). Now use different words for the two meanings. 204.101.237.139 (talk) 15:33, 15 March 2013 (UTC) Oh, and this would also address the appeals issue. A warning (notification) can't be appealed but a warning (sanction) can. 204.101.237.139 (talk) 15:36, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Statement by ErikHaugen
Regarding (1), T. Canens makes a great point about the community sanctions helping define what "expected standards of behavior" means, but also in this case notice that EdJohnston argued that "Since Arbcom touched the 1RR in 2012, I think they own it now". It seems a little squishy, but I'm sympathetic to this argument as well.
Regarding (2), I wish warnings were just notices and never implied guilt; it would be nice to move away from this conception that this is a "2 strikes" kind of thing where the first warning is "you did something bad, stop it or else we'll block/ban/whatever you." I don't like these because they're kind of a big deal to receive, yet I think people issuing them don't necessarily realize how odious it is to get them. Once we clarify this, we can also clarify that sanctions don't require prior special warnings as long as it is clear that the editor knew about the DS in question—for example, if the user was a party to the case and got the notice of the results on the user talk page.
Regarding (3), it does seem strange to appear to be on a panel deciding the appeal of an administrative action that you took! I do some RMs—I would never consider closing a move review of an move request closure I made, for example. This may not be as clear-cut, but still.
Regarding (4), I think if the warning is a notice and not a statement of guilt, then it is fine. Anyone should be able to slap it on anyone's talk page, anytime. This warning, which AFAICT is the one we're talking about here, appears to be a notice, not a statement of guilt, so I think what Sandstein did is ok. Here is an example of a warning that is a statement of guilt, not simply a notice: "...If you continue to misconduct yourself..." etc. This difference in language is huge. Both let the noob who wants to edit something like Tel Aviv#Fashion know what's up, one also serves as a rap sheet. I'm probably trying to get at the same thing here that 204. is trying to get at. HaugenErik (talk) 20:55, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Arbitrator views and discussion
- We are currently working on something that will, among other things, address questions 2 & 3. For 1, I think the best way to parse this under our current DS framework is that the 1RR is a community consensus that partially defines the "expected standards of behavior [and] normal editorial process" in this topic area, such that a violation is ground for application of discretionary sanctions in the form of a block. The provision for "block without warning" can be read to mean only that a block does not require a 1RR warning on the user's talk page, and so interpreted, does not conflict with the overall warning requirement for discretionary sanctions, which can be satisfied by a warning in the editnotice. As to 4, AE actions do not require a consensus of admins; on the other hand, in most cases it may well be preferable, out of courtesy, to refrain from taking action while an admin discussion is ongoing.T. Canens (talk) 08:02, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
- As a fellow lawyer (not just wikilawyer), I can understand the each of the procedural issues that Sandstein has raised. Trust me, I could write several paragraphs of detailed analysis in response to each of Gatoclass's questions. But as important, I can equally understand the perspective of all the non-lawyers out there, who are simply trying to edit articles that are the subject of DS in peace. They must feel that the AE process has degenerated into a quasi-incomprehensible bureaucratic quagmire, one which even its administrators and the arbitrators do not fully understand. The purpose of arbitration enforcement is to enforce the remedies enacted in arbitration committee decisions, as well as discretionary sanctions that follow from those remedies, in a way that is fair both to the editors against whom enforcement is sought, as well as to other editors and ultimately the readers of the disputed articles. With this in mind, I would say in response to question 1 that it makes little difference to me whether 1RR restrictions (a blunt instrument to put it mildly) are enforced at AE or at AN3. Isn't the better question which venue will lead to more equitable and efficient enforcement?, rather than which is correct according to some rule book? As for the issue of warnings, I suggest that if there is legitimate doubt whether an editor is on notice of possible sanctions, then a warning rather than a more severe sanction should be given. Where an editor who was named in the decision immediately reoffends soon after DS is imposed, I doubt the need for another warning; but if substantial time has elapsed since the decision, giving a final warning may be preferable. The 204 IP's comment that there is a distinction to be made between "warning" as notice and "warning" as sanction has merit. In response to Gataclass's point (4), while ultimate decisions at AE are often best made by consensus rather than unilaterally, but I would think that a single administrator can still issue a warning during the discussion in an attempt to avoid further disruptive editing while the discussion is pending; compare in-chambers opinion. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:11, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
Amendment request: Monty Hall problem
Initiated by Martin Hogbin (talk) at 15:32, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
- Case affected
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Monty Hall problem
- Clauses to which an amendment is requested
- Remedy 3
- List of users affected by or involved in this amendment
- All users
- Martin Hogbin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
- Information about amendment request
- Request removal of discretionary sanctions.
Statement by Martin Hogbin
Civil discussion on ways to improve the article now takes place on the talk page and general discussion about the subject that is relevant to improving the article continues on the arguments page. There has been no incivility, edit warring, or other bad behaviour connected with the article. Martin Hogbin (talk) 15:32, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Ningauble
Although the situation has improved since a time when the discussion page saw frequent, explicit personal attacks, our 17th most talked about article continues to be the locus of unproductive and unconstructive contention.
A handful of frequent participants have effectively reached an agreement to disagree more or less civilly about their divergent views; but virtually any attempt to actually improve clarity, neutrality, and due weight in the article, especially by anyone outside this group, is overwhelmed and thwarted by tendentious objections and voluminous digressions, as the regulars seize opportunities to re-grind their favorite axes. This environment of antagonistic browbeating is so severe that Guy Macon, a member of WikiProject Dispute Resolution, has repeatedly (most recently in the thread started here) called for the regulars to just go away and let somebody else work on improving the article.
Aside: My own view that editor contention has resulted in undue emphasis on contention within the article itself, and that the article interprets sources in ways that misrepresent what sources say, is supported by closing statements in last year'sRfC; but I would be nuts to try to improve it in this environment. (I have tried occasionally, so it is fair to say I sometimes do go nuts.) Distortions in the current article, such as the inadequately sourced and apparently incorrect narrative under A second controversy, and the (mis-)interpretation of the context sources refer to under Criticism of the simple solutions, appear to me to result from a kind of Groupthink consensus among a handful of disputants to defend the one thing they agree about – that the article should express their disagreements.
I recommend against removal of discretionary sanctions. If anything, I think there has been inadequate moderation of the discussion page, from which all but the most pugnacious or masochistic contributors are regularly driven away. ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:58, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Richard Gill
Why the article will never stabilize: MHP appears to be a simple problem which you can solve with common sense. Most people's initial common sense solution is however wrong. So new editors will keep coming to the page wanting to rewrite the article according to their common sense understanding (right or wrong). But wikipedia articles have to be based on published sources, not on individual editors' common sense!
Next probem: there is a huge literature on MHP because it interests ordinary folk (people who like solving fun brainteasers), and it interests educationalists, and cognitive scientists, and mathematicans, and statisticians, and decision theorists. The mathematicians and statisticians and decision theorists have developed tools and language to solve problems like this in a systematic way ... precisely because ordinary human cognition tends to go wrong as soon as probabilistic reasoning. People have been debating what probability means for 300 years and there is still no consensus. There are a number of different schools who nowadays live mostly in peaceful coexistence.
Conclusion: the talk page of the article will always be a debating ground. The article will always be a big article, because it's a big topic. Yet right now, in my opinion, the article is reasonably balanced, comprehensive, and it's a fantastic resource. So there is no problem needing a fix.
Ningauble's small print comments -- inadequately sourced and apparently incorrect narrative under A second controversy, and the (mis-)interpretation of the context sources refer to under Criticism of the simple solutions -- should be raised on the talk page of the article. The inadequate sourcing is easy to fix. As to his claims of incorrect narrative and misinterpretation of context - I'm not aware of errors.
I agree that the "regulars" ought to move on now and give newcomers a chance.
Finally: I recommend lifting of discretionary sanctions. It would make the talk page of the article a more welcoming place to newcomers. Richard Gill (talk) 16:36, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Kmhkmh
I mostly agree with Richard Gill's statement regarding the nature of the problem and the state of the article. However I don't quite agree with his final conclusion regarding lifting the discretionary sanctions. The article will always be subject to "opinionated" edits and always be high maintenance (unless it gets locked down completely in a somewhat reasonable state). Though it might helpful if old editors stay away (many actually did) to remove personal confrontation and frustrations, I seriously doubt it will improve the situation in the long run, because due to the nature of the problem chances are the new editors will sooner or later pick up exactly where the old ones left off. We will get the same or similar conflicts just with new players. The discretionary sanction may help to keep those conflicts under control. Moreover since the state of the article it somewhat reasonable, there is no need for an urgent improvement but the danger of a rapid deterioration.--Kmhkmh (talk) 10:25, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Guy Macon
In my considered opinion, we should rethink this issue and consider new solutions.
This is the longest-running content dispute on Wikipedia, and is featured at WP:HALLOFLAME.
I have been making periodic efforts to resolve this content dispute for the last two years. Some of my efforts have been:
Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Monty Hall problem/Evidence#Evidence presented by Guy Macon (outside observer, uninvolved with editing the page in question)
Talk:Monty Hall problem/Arguments/Archive 8#A Fresh Start
Talk:Monty Hall problem/Archive 23#A Fresh Start
Talk:Monty Hall problem/Archive 24#Consensus
Talk:Monty Hall problem/Archive 24#We Won an Award!
Talk:Monty Hall problem/Archive 25#How far have we come?
Talk:Monty Hall problem/Archive 25#Longstanding Content Dispute Resolution Plan Version II
Talk:Monty Hall problem/Archive 29#The Final Solution
Talk:Monty Hall problem/Archive 29#Ten Years And A Million Words
Talk:Monty Hall problem/Archive 33#Conditional or Simple solutions for the Monty Hall problem?
Talk:Monty Hall problem/Archive 35#The longest-running content dispute on Wikipedia
...and those are just the places where I created a new section.
After well over a million words, we have not reached a consensus on article content. To this day Talk:Monty Hall problem is full of spirited debates about what the content of the Monty Hall problem page should be. Another million words are unlikely to change that.
This has reduced the quality of the page, as evidenced by the fact that it is a former featured article. A comparison of the present page with the with the (featured 2005 version) is instructive.
Every avenue of dispute resolution has been tried, some repeatedly. Unlike many articles with unresolved content disputes, this does not appear to be the result of any behavioral problems. Instead, it is an unfortunate interaction between editors, each of whom is doing the right thing when viewed in isolation.
In my opinion, it is time to ignore all rules and start considering new ways to solve this, the longest-running content dispute on Wikipedia.
I propose applying a 6-month topic ban -- no editing of the MHP page or MHP talk page -- on every editor who was working on the page two years ago, one year ago, and is still working on the page today (this of course includes me). I predict that within a few months the remaining editors (and perhaps those who have gone away discouraged) will create an article that is far superior to the one we have now, and they will do it without any major conflicts. Giving the boot to a handful of editors who, collectively, have completely failed to figure out what should be in the article will have a positive effect. Of course it should be made clear that this does not imply any wrongdoing on anyone's part, but rather is an attempt to solve the problem with a reboot.
Two years is enough. It is time to step aside and let someone else try. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:08, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
Clerk notes
- This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Arbitrator views and discussion
- I think that someone brought this up the other day on the mailing list the idea of doing a general cleanup of the sanctions ArbCom has handed out over the past several years. Monty Hall problem was on that list, if I recall correctly. We have a lot on our plate now, so I think it might take a few weeks or months before we get to this, but I personally would support such an action. NW (Talk) 23:34, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
- Given the amount of tense discussion still occurring on the talkpage (which apparently amounts to well over a million words), I feel that loosening restrictions at this stage might be premature. I don't see that the sanctions are hindering progress, and may well be assisting contributors to discuss matters on the talkpage. Decline for now, though quite willing to look again as part of the general clean up that NW mentions above. SilkTork ✔Tea time 08:48, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not entirely convinced that we should be removing this topic area from discretionary sanctions. In principle, I don't think sanctions should be hanging over the heads of constructive contributors; but in practice, I do not think a topic area can completely reform itself in a year or two, even if the roster of active contributors completely changes or the existing set of regulars reform their conduct. I would decline this amendment request, without prejudice to reconsidering in six or twelve months. It's a little too soon for my comfort. AGK [•] 23:39, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
- As we can address this as part of the general sanctions cleanup, I think it's best to decline this for now, unless there's some special reason why we should address this immediately. T. Canens (talk) 02:32, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
- Question: Are there any specific editing practices or article improvements that the discretionary sanctions are interfering with? Newyorkbrad (talk) 03:12, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Clarification request: Climate change
Initiated by NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) at 19:47, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
- NewsAndEventsGuy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
- Elvey (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
- Cybersaur (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
- dave souza (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- KillerChihuahua (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Kennvido (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
- J. Johnson (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
Statement by NewsAndEventsGuy (initiator)
Intro
Hi, There is a broken link in the instructions in the current lead at ARBCC which has created some confusion as evidenced by this and this.
The relevant text, with the link text just underlined here, now reads
- "Please do not edit this page directly unless you are either 1) an Arbitrator, 2) an Arbitration Clerk, or 3) adding yourself to this case. * * * Once the case is closed, editors may add to the #Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions as needed, but this page should not be edited otherwise."
The broken link was discovered when I and others were pondering exactly what regular editors may, and may not, edit on this page.
Ways to read the ambiguity
INTERPRETATION OPTION 1) Regular editors can ONLY add to the sanctions log after they have been imposed. Clarification needed on notification procedure.
INTERPRETATION OPTION 2) In the spirit of "prevention, not punishment" any regular editor can post ARBCC notices and add to the notifications log as well as the sanctions log.
INTERPRETATION OPTION 3) Other?
Insights from case version history
To best of my knowledge the only relevant text from the case history is
- June 12 2010 Link in lead about what reg eds can tweak (#Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions) now works.
- Oct 14 2010 Relevant tweak A Link in lead about what reg eds can tweak (#Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions) was accidentally broken when section heading was deleted during initial case closure.
- Oct 14 2010 Relevant tweak B Section heading restored but with different wording so link in lead is still broken. HOWEVER a link in logging section (#Log of blocks, bans, and sanctions) does work.
- Oct 15 2010 TOC level 2 heading for "Notifications" section added under level 1 heading "Log of blocks, bans, and sanctions". Lead link is still broken but logging link to #Log of blocks, bans, and sanctions still works, and appears to encompass the notifications section
I don't think there have been any other relevant changes to the section headings or links.
REPEAT THE QUESTION: Can reg eds post ARBCC notices to other users' talk pages, and then log the posting here?
Conclusion
- 1. Regardless what ya'll think, the busted lead link needs to be fixed;
- 2. My own opinion is that in the spirit of "prevention, not punishment" any editor should be allowed to spread the word of ARBCC and post names and notices here.
- 3. If ya'll agree, then suggest you change the section heading itself to Log of NOTICES, blocks, bans, and sanctions and then fix the lead link to point to that.
- 4. The above edit history looks like this is what was supposed to happen in the first place.
Thanks for your attention and direction. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:31, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
- NewsAndEventsGuy's Reply to Elvey's opening comments
- First, this matter is not just about Elvey. It is asking whether any editor active in the climate change area can service and log notice on any others. I think I am up to three users besides myself, including but not limited to Elvey. I expect to feel justified in adding more in the future. So please don't tune out on the assumption this is unique problem that will blow over.
- Second, contrary to the Elvey's assertion, I am only trying to prevent (not punish) by forestalling any disruption that might be caused should Elvey wikihound JJ into the climate change area. Evidence of my basis for this fear consists of Elvey's (1) zero WP:DR to 1000mph-outright-ban proposal in under a second (see his WP:AN that refused to die); (2) Elvey's preliminary canvassing of other editors, mostly from the climate area, that had bumped with JJ (see list in the WP:AN case); (3) Elvey's multiple postings in various forums to beat the drum for his drive to ban JJ (village pump-policy and WP:BAN); (4) to me Elvey appears to have an interest in exploiting the ARBCC decision as a potential tool against JJ. Since he was relying so heavily on JJ's interactions with 3rd parties, mostly from the climate area, it seems like a reasonable fear that he might enter the climate area himself to try to wikihound JJ into producing more first-hand ammunition for Elvey's next assault against JJ, and if so, this tactic would be based on a perversion of the purpose of ARBCC. I'm in the climate area to edit. ARBCC is designed for prevention, not punishment, and that's all I really care about here - maintaining a conducive editing environment on the climate pages. Beats me why he objects to being on the list if he doesn't plan to edit the area, or make trouble there if he does. I put myself on the list, after all. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:44, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
- NewsAndEventsGuy's Updated Comments
- (1) Clerk Penwhale's comment below is based on his subjective interpretation of DS text, or so he said in this side conversation, but nonetheless are consistent with the persuasive remarks by......
- (2) Dave Souza, who has convinced me that there are two elements before AE sanctions will be imposed by an uninvolved admin, and they are
-
-
- Element 1 - Simple harmless "notice" or awareness of ARBCC of a sort that does not carry a presumption of guilt; and
- Element 2 - A warning by an uninvolved admin following problematic editor behavior
-
- (3) In light of paragraph 2 above, the "notifications" section seems to be ineffectively named for Element 1, even though its purpose appears to be to log satisfaction of Element 2.
- (4) I am persuaded to self-revert my additions to the notification list.
- (5) Please prevent future identical issues, by fixing the ambiguities in the ARBCC wording
- NewsAndEventsGuy's PROPOSAL
Maybe this will take a motion, I don't know, but this makes sense to me
- A Change "Notifications" section heading and add one sentence of text to read
-
-
-
-
- ADMINISTRATOR WARNINGS
- Any editor may informally call ARBCC to the attention of any other editor at any time, for any reason, and such notices are deemed nothing more than "FYI". Formal warnings may only be given by an uninvolved administrator after a showing of problematic editor behavior. In this section, any user may log a formal ARBCC warning given by an uninvolved administrator to any other editor, or may add their own name.
-
-
-
- B Fix link in lead to point to the reworded TOC level 1 heading
- C Close this clarification request
- D Thank you all for your attention, and attention to these details. Sometimes a little prevention goes a long way.
NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 00:21, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
PS WHY NOW? The climate pages are relatively quiescent but you can bet that area will heat up next year when the IPCC's big 2007 report (AR4) is updated with a new one (AR5). Better to fix this now when its quiet. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 03:54, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
- @Dave Souza, and alt wording
- You should include the part about anyone letting anyone else know about ARBCC anytime for any reason as an FYI. Consider the problem ed who has already been politely told about how he is afoul of DR, RS, NPOV, etc
- NAEG to X - Caution, please see ARBCC
- X to NAEG - Sanctions?? You threatening ME with SANCTIONS??
- NAEG to X - Just calling your attention to ARBCC
- X to NAEG - Harassment!!!! Accusations!!!! Slander!!!! I ((((demand)))) to know the basis of this warning!!!!
- NAEG to X - See prior comments in this thread
- X to NAEG - I filed an ANI on you
- Of course, the ANI will go nowhere, but why invite this scenario in the first place? By providing an instant get-out-of-jail free card for spreading the word about ARBCC, the ANI never happens and that dialogue quickly cools off with something like this.
-
- NAEG to X - Caution, please see ARBCC
- X to NAEG - Sanctions?? You threatening ME with SANCTIONS??
- NAEG to X - No, I don't have that power, only admins can decide if you have violated ARBCC. I just wanted to call ARBCC to your attention, and the ARBCC decision itself encourages us to spread the word about it, because it says right on its face "Any ed can tell any other ed about ARBCC for any reason at any time and such notices are treated as simple FYIs."
- Presumably, that ends the drama.
- In sum, simple wording is excellent. But sometimes a second helping of simple wording is better. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:40, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
@KillerChihuahua Let's break down your idea into two parts. (1) Helpful notice, before any wrongs, (2) Changing the DS and AE status quo regarding formal warnings after one or more fouls. If the first part is pursued as being supplemental to the status quo, and if the world made sense, it should be simple to get consensus and implement. By taking it in two steps we could realize the benefit of part 1 (even if it is just supplemental to the status quo) quickly, whereas it will entail a lot more discussion to get consensus to change part 2. Why hold up the first part's payback while we (endlessly?) debate step 2? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 02:05, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
@AGK I await your motion with interest! Do you have a guesstimate when you will really sink your teeth into motion prep? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:56, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
-
- Awesome, thanks for the draft I will check it out. OK with me for this request to be closed & archived . NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 23:13, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Elvey
Per the Clerk's note below, NAEG should immediately revert the 3 adds (and of course an uninvolved admin can add me, NAEG, JJ, etc. if they have adequate rationale to do so and do so appropriately, at which point those editors will be subject to discretionary sanctions).
When have I last edited in Climate Change? If I haven't then ISTM that even an admin, let a lone a non-admin can't make these sanctions apply to me by posting my name up. Untrue? I may have edited in Climate Change long ago, but if I have come closer than [38], it was either so long ago or so minor I don't recall. Since this restriction went into effect? I don't think so. As far as I know, Wikipedia has no [Minority Report (film)|Minority Report-style PreCrime police force], and NAEG has no precognitive abilities. I can't find any edits at all; is there a tool to search for this? [Deafening silence]
NewsAndEventsGuy's reply on my talk page confirms (diff) he is attempting to apply sanctions for my daring to launch an AN proceeding against J Johnson (JJ) in a way that policy specifically permits, but some admins didn't like as much as the complaint processes they insisted I use instead, saying, saying that he did it because I had not "shown a positive response to the multiple pieces of advice (such as rfc/u) presented by several eds in your recent AN proceeding against JJ." I had a very hard time there because only at the end did admin Dougweller realize he had made about half a dozen false accusations against me, and there was quite a snowball effect from the false accusations that made it look like it was I and not Dougweller who didn't understand policy.
Doug wants it both ways. He has what reason to comment here if he is sorry for the over half a dozen false accusations he made against me? If he isn't sorry, then he's lying when he says he's already apologized to me; in his comment below, he even explicitly blames me for his confusion! I haven't accepted an apology from Doug - because he hasn't given me one. Details below.
As he's chosen to attack me here yet again, perhaps to distract from the over half a dozen times he took the time to falsely accuse me of violating 2RR <sic>, I respond, and I encourage others to read this over too:
I've asked Doug MULTIPLE TIMES AND I'd STILL like to have answers to: Doug, "do you accept that you falsely accused me about half a dozen times or that "Clearly the 'failure to get a clue' was yours?... (It was long after I'd clearly shown I had NOT violated 2RR.) Would you mind explicitly retracting the false accusations, which you made here:"denying 2 reverts" and here (2): warning retracted, but "you are now saying that you weren't even at 2RR" isn't and here (4-7, depending on how you count repeats):"he hadn't exceeded 2RR even (he had)", "Now you are admitting to [violating] 2RR? Which you did.", "clearly don't understand", "need to start AGFing", and finally "My edit above is my response." - which is a restatement of the last 3 false accusations)? An apology would go a lot further than a futile and defensive (and on and on-going) attempt to deny or justify ~half a dozen false accusations. How 'bout it, Doug?" I see that you retracted one false accusation but then reverted that retraction. Yes, you said "sorry for the confusion", but you didn't say it to me, rather, you did continue to assert that the confusion was mine. In your comment below, you even explicitly blame me for your confusion! You haven't acknowledged or apologized for your confusion. Again, I ask for relief - Would you please explicitly (e.g. state here or at least somewhere that you) retract the ~half dozen false accusations I linked to above? (rather than doing so in place but then restoring them?)"
I feel it's clear that Doug has not retracted his false accusations against me, and yet is badgering me for favors and answers regarding what he imagines are my misunderstandings.
This is so ridiculous!: Doug is posting here and to my talk page in a desperate attempt to convince me to admit to misunderstanding what the warning he gave me was for. (If I do, the (long since archived!) warning I put on his talk page for having been abusive would be retractable.) But he won't take the time to do the edit to Earthquake prediction that he deceptively said he'd do. !?
Doug won't retract his false accusations, OR answer my questions, e.g.:
"You advise 'calm, civil discussion' so, I've gone back to the beginning to review my attitude-and yours, to be fair. Please go back and carefullyreadmy first post about all this, right after you accused me of being "engaged in an edit war". And take a look at how YOU responded too. If you hadn't "ignored the bulk of my post" (your words) in December - including the stuff about JJ, and more carefully read what I wrote about 3RR, things would have gone a helluva lot better. Or at least Ronz would think they'd have gone better, I'm sure. See what I'm saying?"
and yet gets pissy if I expect him to answer questions I've already asked before answering his. I wrote, "I have not said anything that actually showed I was confused or wrong about what the warning you misused is for; if you think I have, feel free to provide a diff/link." I guess Doug's reply and link were an attempt to show that I have. Well, it failed. Doug, if you want to understand why, look at each of the false accusations I point out that I feel you've made. Which of them do you admit to, and which do you not. If you cease trying to keep it a secret which ones you do or don't admit to, we can make some progress, and figurw out who actually misunderstands the warnings in question. Post particularly, see my reply to which Doug replied by falsely accusing me of "denying 2 reverts" when I had done no such thing. (link above.) I am SICK and TIRED of arguing with an admin who has done such a horrible job reading what I've written, that he's still making the same false accusations against me that I've refuted what feels like a million times.
Isn't there a term for someone who is psychologically incapable of admitting, even to themselves, that they've done something wrong? Me, can admit it if I do something wrong, and not have my brain explode. I admitted and clearly apologized when I felt I'd screwed up 5 days ago, and it hasn't killed me-and AFAIK, I hadn't even violated policy.
Also, I just discovered something! It looks like there are two clearly conflicting statements in policy - the ones I quoted and referenced (from WP:Reprimands) that clearly state that AN was the place for me to bring the dispute with JJ, and the one that, unfortunately, the folks beating me up at AN refused to quote or reference, but may have been thinking of. So there was policy clearly supporting my use of AN, and there's a conflict with other policy that I'll document and try to get addressed after the dust settles.
If I am later re-added properly and by an uninvolved admin, at least I'll have received help or have an uninvolved admin to ask again for the help understanding I asked for, (the Request for Clarification reproduced below) rather than just a restriction slapped on me sans answers by NAEG, which is what I got, instead.
P.S The restriction I proposed for JJ was 1RR, and I provided links and diffs to show that a huge fraction of his edits were uncivil, hostile, responses to civil DR, and I quoted and referenced the policy (from WP:Reprimands) authorizing the proposal. FYI, I may be offline for a couple days.
--Elvey (talk) 22:07, 10 March 2013 (UTC) Revised 01:28, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Request for Clarification
Since this is Requests/Clarification, I ask for answers to my questions regarding sanctions here:
Climate Change sanctions/restrictions
I could use some help understanding the comments some have made about JJ's edits re. Climate Change content, in that if JJ is violating Arbcom sanctions/restrictions, which ones? I'm trying to figure out what means. I guess http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Discretionary_sanctions means that if JJ has been warned, admins can impose whatever sanction they choose, if he violates a policy he's been warned of? Yes, No, sorta? If I read correctly, the warning doesn't count if it's from a regular user or an involved administrator, or doesn't reference the sanctions; is that correct? Yes, No, sorta? If so, I wonder if JJ has been or should be thus warned re. OWN, CIVIL, etc., W.R.T. global warming.--Elvey (talk) 11:06, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
Can I warn JJ as NewsAndEventsGuy has? --Elvey (talk) 22:05, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
Does NewsAndEventsGuy need to notify JJ, Ronz, etc- those who have made comments about JJ's edits re. Climate Change content? I don't understand this process I've been dragged into.--Elvey (talk) 22:13, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Dougweller
Since I've been dragged into this I shall comment. Because a 3rd edit by Elvey had an automatic edit summary that said it was a revert, I gave him a 3RR template. His response was to template me for abuse of the 3RR template. Things spiraled downhill from there as I allowed his language to confuse me and although I apologised he didn't accept my apology. However, he never withdrew his accusation that I'd abused the template and indeed seems confused about the purpose of the template. I've asked him twice, once at AN and last night at his talk page about this. My post to his talk page says " I'd still like to know if you think a 3RR warning is meant to be given to an editor who has made 3 reverts or to an editor who has made more than 3 reverts. In the discussion about the 3RR warning I mistakenly gave you, you wrote[39] "I didn't break 3RR"(I never suggested you did) and "So even if I had violated 2RR <sic>, which I hadn't and you acknowledge I hadn't, you abused the template by using it to accuse me of edit warring." But that's wrong. If you'd "violated 2RR" ('violated' is a confusing word here as there is nothing to violate) you would be at 3RR and the template would have been appropriate - that's what it's for. Are we agreed on this?" My post was before his last response above. He hasn't responded to my question.
With this issue he again seems to misunderstand the purpose of warnings. They are meant to advise an editor of a situation in which they might be blocked if they continue a certain pattern of behavior. His behavior the last few days at AN and elsewhere seem similar to the behavior that got him an indefinite block in 2007 for "user fails to get a clue, creates a hostile editing environment while disregarding our policies, come back when you can be constructive". There is also an open SPI on him (waiting for CU at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Elvey concerning accounts created that immediately involved themselves in Elvey related disputes.
NAEG seems to have acted in good faith. And as I understand it, Elvey and NAEG now know about the sanctions so whether or not they have been warned appropriately if they break them they can be sanctioned. Dougweller (talk) 06:08, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Statement by dave souza
In short, even with a vague recollections that there were retractions restrictions [autocorrect error!] on who could list notifications, there was nothing obvious on the ARBCC page to confirm this one way or another. A clarification note would be very useful, and I thought it sensible for NAEG to ask for such clarification.
When asked by NAEG about issues with an editor, I pointed out that it appeared to come under WP:ARBCC. It wasn't clear if the user had been notified under WP:ARBCC#Notifications. At that stage I couldn't recall the procedure, and could not see anything on the ARBCC page to clarify who gave notifications. I'd recently given an editor an informal note about ARBCC, but was not sure if my own position as an involved editor and admin stopped me from listing the editor formally.
Looking again at WP:ARBCC#Remedies, the struck out section Warning of intended sanctions stated "Prior to any sanctions being imposed, the editor in question shall be given a warning by an uninvolved administrator with a link to the decision authorising sanctions; and, where appropriate, should be counselled on specific steps to take to bring his or her editing into line with the relevant policies and guidelines." That is superseded by WP:ARBCC#Standard discretionary sanctions "24) The climate change topic, broadly interpreted, is placed under discretionary sanctions. Any uninvolved administrator may levy restrictions as an arbitration enforcement action on users editing in this topic area, after an initial warning."
In retrospect, the WP:ARBCC#Notifications section is actually a log of warnings by uninvolved administrators, but there's nothing to indicate that and in the past notifications appear to have been given by non-admins. Probably the best approach is to add a subheading making it clear that these are formal notifications of warnings by uninvolved administrators.
It may be worth considering removing or striking notifications by non-admins, but looking at the discretionary sanctions page, it states that "{{Uw-sanctions}} can be used to satisfy the "Warning" provision of the discretionary sanctions process. A warning need not be issued by an administrator; see the template's documentation for further details." . dave souza, talk 17:29, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
- Perhaps simple wording under the heading could be "This section logs formal warnings by uninvolved administrators. Informal notification may be given on user talk pages by others, but should not be listed here." As an option, clerks could remove non-admin notifications and advise the user concerned of this rule. . . dave souza, talk 09:28, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks to KC and Sandstein for thoughtful views on the broader context. In this particular case, non-admin notifications by NAEG were not formal warnings so no harm done, and they have since been removed from the log by NAEG.
It's clearly good, as with 3RR, that any editor getting into the disputed area gets a notification [from anyone] advising with no presumption of guilt that they may be subject to a block if they go over the line. Such notifications aren't logged for 3RR, but the log at discretionary sanctions areas does seem to have been helpful in some cases. In the climate change area, Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Log had a similar function before being superseded by the ARBCC decision.
WP:AC/DS states "Discretionary sanctions may be imposed by any uninvolved administrator after giving due warning". It requires that sanctions be logged, but doesn't mention logging warnings. . . . dave souza, talk 09:11, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Statement J. Johnson
I have added myself as a very much interested party.
It seems to me that the "giving of due warning" — I presume that is the point of allowing any regular editor to post ARBCC notices — enables such ominous consequences ("discretionary sanctions may be imposed by any uninvolved adminstrator", point #2 at WP:AC/DS) that it should not be automatically enabled at the whim of any editor. For sure, everyone editing at (say) Climate Change should understand the requirements. But if anyone should stray then the first recourse by any non-admin editor should be an informal reminder. If that (and other remedies) fail and the strongest measures are to be contemplated, then the seriousness of the matter should require that "due warning" be made by an administrator. Otherwise there is too much potential for abuse, and a likely possibility that a warned editor might mistake it for non-consequential harassment. Also, an administrator is presumably more likely to be observant of the requirements of "due" warning. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:23, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Query. Elvey has suggested that we become "subject to discretionary sanctions" by being listed here. My understanding is that any editing in the Climate Change area is subject to sanctions; that being listed here is (generally) constructive notice of particular instances that may result in specific sanctions. Perhaps this could be clarified? Also, perhaps it could be clarified that what is being requested in this case (by NAEG) is not a sanction, but clarification of who can give constructive notice of a request for a sanction. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:57, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Sandstein
The request by NewsAndEventsGuy is a bit confusing, but it raises the following questions:
- Since 2011 the topic is subject to WP:AC/DS, which require "warnings". It is unclear under the wording of these procedures who may issue "warnings" - whether uninvolved administrators or all editors. It is similarly unclear who may log such warnings on the case page.
- The "Log of blocks, bans, and sanctions" section of the case page has a subsection called "Notifications", even though no provision of the decision calls for "notifications" (instead, as mentioned above, "warnings" are required).
I recommend to resolve these questions by
- clarifying the relevant wording of WP:AC/DS, and
- standardizing the format, title etc. of the logging subsections of all DS case pages, which are rather diverse at the moment.
I understand that AGK (talk · contribs) is currently evaluating, pursuant to a now-archived clarification request by me, whether under DS, "warnings" should be replaced by "notifications" that do not presuppose misconduct. Sandstein 19:35, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Statement by KillerChihuahua
I have long felt that notifications should be the standard, as opposed to warnings. Keep formal warnings, they have their place; but leaving out the notification option has led to a sticky situation where an editor effectively cannot be informed without being accused of wrongdoing, and cannot be sanctioned without a step which is often pointless and harmful to the encyclopedia (in the sense that one must cross off "warning" before doing anything else which might be indicated.) This is absurd, so sorry. Editors ought to be able to tell other editors without having to wait until the new editor has committed a foul which they might have been able to avoid; articles should not be left at risk just because an editor has to be warned, and then another filing must take place before they're actually prevented from harming the encyclopedia. Then comes the second problem; editors who are warned react in a hostile fashion if they think there is any question regarding their actions, leading to more drama and bad feelings. Then there is the third problem, which has led to truly ridiculous arguments on AE; editors argue that they can't be sanctioned because they were never formally, adequately, procedurally correctly, warned. Notifications solve all these problems. I have always had notifications on articles on community probation which I have written and enforced, and there is far less hostility, far less wiki-lawyering, and far less bizarre rules wankery. With notifications, one is truly being kind and letting someone know before they get into trouble. This is my view not just on this case but every case on DS as well as CS; we should change the standard approach to a more proactive, helpful one. One puppy's opinion. KillerChihuahua 22:45, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
- See Talk:Men's_rights_movement/Article_probation#Notifications for an example; "Listing here indicates only that an editor has been notified. Listing here should not be taken to mean that the user's edits were in violation of the article probation." IOW notification is not to be taken that an editor has done anything wrong; and the verbiage of the Uw-probation template is also friendly and informative ("a routine friendly notice"), rather than accusatory. This is one instance where I think the community standard practice is preferable to the ArbCom standard practice. KillerChihuahua 23:05, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Statement by other user
Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
- The standard section name is "Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions". It was removed erroneously when the affected case is closed. T. Canens then added it back with the section title as directed by the remedy that passed.
- That being said: This area is now under Discretionary sanctions. Thus, uninvolved administrators are the ones to warn (and place notice). - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 23:11, 10 March 2013 (UTC)
- "There must be no threaded discussion, so please comment only in your own section." Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 07:37, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
Arbitrator views and discussion
- Thanks for bringing up this point. I can see the aid a "list of notices", etc., could provide, but I'm also of the mind that, in trying to keep a fraught area cool, giving friendly (unlogged) notices first might be the best option (also per WP:TEMPLAR). Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 01:02, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
- As was implied above, I do intend to deal with the wider issue of notices by means of an overarching motion, which I hope to draft in the near future (the motion will require a large commitment of time and a lot of attention to detail). Ultimately, the nature of notices (and the notices–warnings dichotomy) will need to be decided through a binding vote among the committee, but community comment will certainly be solicited. AGK [•] 23:42, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
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- NewsAndEventsGuy: I have published a draft motion at User talk:AGK/DS, where you are welcome to submit your thoughts and comments. AGK [•] 23:02, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
Motions
Requests for enforcement
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Brandmeister
The duration of Brandmeister's topic ban has been reduced to six months. EdJohnston (talk) 14:40, 22 March 2013 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Statement by BrandmeisterI would like to request a review of my topic ban, imposed on February 10, 2013 in the aforementioned AE section. The edit, for which I have been reported and sanctioned, was merely a removal of contradiction within the article's text (which I noted in the edit summary) and the edit was ultimately restored by mediator Golbez. Up until now the dissenting users themselves have no concerns at the related talk page thread, which I started on February 4. Also I would like to note that the previous report on me was dishonest as it was made by account which subsequently turned out to be a sock. In his report that account, Vandorenfm, mentioned four other allegedly unrelated editors, with whom I had interacted (Aram-van, Gorzaim, Vandorenfm and Xebulon). All of them also turned out later to be socks, which likely tried to use the arbitration noticeboard as an instrument to overcome the content disputes. User:Zimmarod, who reported me this time, displays the behaviour of a dormant single-purpose account, as evidenced by his/her contributions, that are almost exclusively within the Armenia-Azerbaijan field. Considering that and the fact that the Armenia-Azerbaijan topics constitute an insignificant part of my contributions, I believe that my two-year topic ban is inappropriately severe and can be reviewed. I am ready to provide any further details if necessary. Brandmeistertalk 10:29, 10 March 2013 (UTC) @ Sandstein I have not wrote above, that Zimmarod was a sock. I wrote, that he behaves like WP:SPA, which does not neccessarily mean that he is a sock. Brandmeistertalk 19:13, 10 March 2013 (UTC) Statement by Lord RoemI have no objection to reducing the ban duration, per the comment in the discussion section below (which I believe suggests shrinking from two years to one). If this needs to be done by me, I'll gladly do it. Otherwise, I authorize any other uninvolved admin to adjust that time without objection from me, if that indeed is the consensus here. --Lord Roem ~ (talk) 07:53, 11 March 2013 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 1)Statement by (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by BrandmeisterStatement by The Devil's AdvocateSandstein, Brand's comment about sockpuppets filing a report against him is in reference to a report filed by User:Vandorenfm in February of 2011, which resulted in a year-long topic ban. As you can see, that account was eventually found to be a sockpuppet of another editor. The other two accounts were also blocked as sockpuppets, one being a sockpuppet of the same editor who operated Vandorenfm. I think the current sanction is extremely excessive in light of those facts and given the very limited legitimate evidence provided in this latest case.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 21:30, 10 March 2013 (UTC) The two-year length of the current topic ban was suggested because of there having been a previous one-year topic ban so it does have relevance to the current sanction.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 21:56, 10 March 2013 (UTC) @KC When you have escalating sanctions for editors with de-escalating conduct you are sending the message that only perfection will be accepted after you have a black mark. That the one-year topic ban was primarily the product of manipulation by abusive sockmasters should and does matter.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 20:34, 18 March 2013 (UTC) Statement by GrandmasterI would like to support the request by Brandmeister. His 2 year topic ban is considered to be an escalation of his previous 1 year topic ban, but one should take into the account that the first ban was not a correct one. If we look into its history, the complaint against Brandmeister was made by User:Vandorenfm, a sock of the banned user. See here: [41] Note the complaint of the sock: The immediate concern is his editing of the article on Caucasian Albania, where User:Twilight Chill continues waging an edit war against 5 (five) other unrelated editors (Aram-van, Gorzaim, Vandorenfm, MarshallBagramyan, Xebulon). As Brandmeister noted above, 4 of 5 accounts that Vandorenfm mentioned back then turned out later to be socks (User:Aram-van, User:Gorzaim, User:Vandorenfm, and User:Xebulon). So group of sock accounts tag teamed against an established editor with tens of thousands of useful contribs, and then reported him to get him banned. That plan worked back then, but considering that the sock accounts were later exposed, I believe that first ban should be overturned and discounted, because the banned user is not allowed to make any contribs to Wikipedia, including filing enforcement reports at this board, and any contribs by the banned users and their socks must be reverted on spot without consideration to their merits. Therefore Brandmeister did not violate any rules by reverting socks, and should not have been banned on the basis of the report by a sock account. Now if we look into the present topic ban, we can see that situation appears to be similar to that that led to the first ban. Brandmeister was alone against a group of accounts with less that 500 edits each, which appeared one after another after a long absence to rv the article Shusha. And I'm not the only one who thinks that the activity of Zimmarod, Oliveriki and 517design in the article Shusha looks very suspicious. Sandstein agreed "that the history of the article gives the impression that sock- or meatpuppetry may be involved". [42] Golbez also stated that he believed Zimmarod could be a sock account. [43] [44] Plus Brandmeister was the only one who attempted to discuss and left a comment at talk, while accounts reverting him never bothered to join the discussion. In a situation like this, I don't think that a topic ban (especially such a long one) is justified. Grandmaster 23:30, 10 March 2013 (UTC) With regard to the relevance of other editors being socks to misconduct by Brandmeister. I think there's a relevance, due to the reasons that I mentioned before, i.e. banned users cannot file reports at this board. By supporting that old 1 year ban we admit that banned users can get away with filing reports here in violation of their ban. Also, if you look at the report by Vandorenfm, he provided 4 diffs of edit warring by Brandmeister, but all 4 refer to reverting sock accounts. According to WP:BAN, edits by banned users must be reverted without consideration to their quality, so there was no violation by Brandmeister when he reverted sock accounts. Therefore in my opinion the ban in 2011 was not a correct one, and should not be taken into consideration when making a decision about the present ban. Grandmaster 10:35, 15 March 2013 (UTC) Statement by ZimmarodI suggest to ignore Brandmeister's request. He was under sanctions several times, as discussed here, and a better decision would perhaps be to ban him permanently. I am also troubled to see that Grandmaster and Brandmeister continue their accusations against me despite multiple warnings made just recently to stop accusations of socking/meating, etc. or use more proper venues for such discussions. I took a look into the issue of sock accusations against Vandorenfm/Xebulon/Gorzaim and it seems these folks were all banned without evidence (especially Gorzaim) as sysops came under heavy pressure from repeated bad-faith SPIs which numbed the administrator senses. Grandmaster misleads the public when he states that Brandmeister was making his reverts in the past after Vandorenfm/Xebulon were accused in being socks; not true - he was reverting before they were banned. The administrator simply caved in under the barrage of such attacks. So, the entire line of logic is flawed from start. And making parallels between Vandorenfm/Xebulon/Gorzaim and the recent edits on the Shusha page is baseless. Overall, a weak attempt to salvage an unsalvageable case. Zimmarod (talk) 17:10, 16 March 2013 (UTC) Result of the appeal by Brandmeister
I wasn't going to comment on this one but since nobody else has for a day or two, I think I will. I have never been altogether comfortable with the "escalating sanctions" model recommended at some dispute resolution pages (though no longer, it seems, under the wording of the standard discretionary sanctions). The escalating model in my view is akin to the "three strikes and you're out" laws in some US states, where a miscreant can end up with a life sentence for stealing a pizza. Although it is certainly appropriate to utilize the escalating model in some circumstances, as a general rule I am more comfortable with the notion of applying a sanction proportionate to the offence. In this case, my impression is that Lord Roem felt obliged to lay an extended sanction in line with the aforementioned escalating sanctions model, resulting in a two-year ban, but it seems no administrator here really believes the offences were that egregious. In these circumstances, I too would probably favour a reduction to a more proportionate level, particularly since Brandmeister's previous case appears to have been engineered in part by a since banished sockpuppet. Given that the effective length of any topic ban, if I am not mistaken, is six months (at which time a user can appeal), I would tentatively suggest a reduction to three months this time around. Gatoclass (talk) 10:57, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
It would be useful to get some more input here, anyone else have a comment? Gatoclass (talk) 11:32, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
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Hgilbert
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Hgilbert
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- Binksternet (talk) 00:21, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Hgilbert (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Waldorf education#Conflict of interest, and Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Waldorf education#Hgilbert. With regard to the Waldorf schools topic, Hgilbert was found to have a conflict of interest, to engage in original research, and to use inadequate and inappropriate references. Hgilbert and any other editor with an identified conflict of interest was instructed to follow the guideline at WP:Conflict of interest, which states that COI editors may not perform controversial edits to articles. Binksternet (talk) 00:21, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 10 March 2013. Removal of "Pseudoscience" category, with the edit summary of "controversial category", which confirms Hgilbert's knowledge of the disputed nature of this change. Two minutes after he made this change, Hgilbert initiated discussion of the issue at Talk:Waldorf education#Categorization, rather than first engaging in discussion and gaining consensus.
- 10 March 2013. Removal of negative summary text from the lead section
, in support of new editor Vittoria Gena (who has contributed only on three articles, all of which touch upon Waldorf, including a book that likens non-Waldorf schools to Nazism.)Discussion of this material was underway on the talk page, at Talk:Waldorf education#Undue material. The negative information was a summary of negative points described in greater detail in the article body, so it was appropriate per WP:LEAD guideline, but open to discussions of undue weight. Hgilbert acted to remove the disputed text but consensus had not been reached. - 9 March 2013. Removal of an image of the human heart, with negative text in the caption. No discussion.
- 5 March 2013. Introduction of inappropriate reference to K12academics.com which includes, in its text, the editorial bracketed note "citation needed". This indicates that K12academics.com is not reliable, that its contributors do not agree on content.
- 4 March 2013. Removal of Sean Esbjorn-Hargens' ReVision reference as "non-peer reviewed journal". One minute later, Hgilbert opened a discussion about this reference, rather than discussing it first and gaining consensus for change.
- 1 March 2013. Removal of several article alert templates, including POV and COI. The POV tag was discussed on the talk page between Hgilbert and Jellypear at Talk:Waldorf education#Tags, but nobody agreed, or even discussed with Hgilbert, the removal of the COI tag which applied specifically to himself. Nevertheless, he removed it.
- 13 February 2013. Removed negative information from cited to professor Edzard Ernst and education expert Richy Thompson of the British Humanist Association. No discussion.
- 10 February 2013. Added a reference about Waldorf governance. The reference is about the Association of Waldorf Schools of North America (AWSNA), but the text that it purportedly supports pertains to global Waldorf/Steiner practices, not just North America. No discussion.
- 9 February 2013. Removal of cited text, that makes Steiner look more like a kook. Hgilbert summarizes, "rem. jargon, simplify." No discussion.
- 9 February 2013. Removal of the word "pseudoscience" from a section header. No discussion.
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- Correction 10: 9 February 2013. Hgilbert added "Science" to the header of the "Pseudoscience" section. He removed the list of examples found by Jelinek and Sun; ones which reflected very poorly on Waldorf. Binksternet (talk) 02:34, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
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- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
- Warned on 11 March 2013 by Binksternet (talk · contribs)
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
After receiving the warning on 11 March, Hgilbert replied that he thought the ArbCom determination of 2006 had been superseded by a new one (a motion passed on 30 January 2013: Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Waldorf_education#Modified_by_motion). As far as I can tell, the conflict-of-interest determination remains in place with regard to editors. The findings about Hgilbert also remain in place. The amendment looks like it replaces only one section of the 2006 ArbCom case, changing "article probation" to "standard discretionary sanctions". I think that Hgilbert is in violation of COI and the 2006 finding naming him specifically, and has been for some weeks now.
After I warned him, Hgilbert did not revert the two edits I pointed out as being in violation. This unwillingness to follow the 2006 finding is typical of his behavior. For instance, on 28 November 2012, Alexbrn warned Hgilbert about COI [45], which Hgilbert removed from his talk page [46] but answered at the article talk page: [47]. There, Hgilbert argued against the 2006 finding, saying that he was "no more or less conflicted than an employee of the public school system would be in editing an article on public education." Because this has been a long-running problem, I propose that Hgilbert be topic-banned from Waldorf education article space, broadly construed, but not banned from talk pages, which are not the locus of the problem. Binksternet (talk) 00:21, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
- Notification of Hgilbert. Binksternet (talk) 00:26, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Hgilbert
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Hgilbert
I'm happy to have this looked at. At Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Continued_conflict_of_interest_at_Waldorf_education the claim was made that I have made massive prejudicial changes since early February, when Alexbrn last edited the article. We could start with this diff of all the changes between Alexbrn's last contribution on Feb. 3rd, and the present state of the article as of March 11th. What massive removals of negative material and additions of positive material have been made over this time frame? (Note that many of the mostly minor changes that have been made were made by other editors.) Also: Note that there was also a review of the original arbitration.
Also: if arbitrators examine Talk:Waldorf education, I think they'll see harmonious discussion on a range of issues, and a readiness to compromise.
In response to the concrete diffs above (from Binksternet):
- WP:Category clearly states that categories should not be controversial. See the extensive talk page discussion here, which makes it clear that this category is very controversial. Summarizing: There is extensive controversy over WE's relationship to pseudoscience, as documented in the article; many educationalists believe that it is a solid educational approach, and some of those who are cited on the pseudoscience side (e.g. Jelinek) support the education generally, but dispute some curriculum content. The discussion deserves to be presented fairly, but it clearly falls foul of the category criteria. In any case, the category was initially removed by another editor, Vittoria Gena here. I supported this when the change was reverted.
- I summarized the material in the lead more concisely, trying to preserve the primary discussion themes; see also here where I added more material. The body of the article retains a full discussion of all the topics. The only issue I removed from the lead was the immunization issue, as per a (still undisputed) suggestion of another editor on the talk page.
- The image of the human heart was not closely related to Waldorf education. It had previously been critiqued for this reason.
- The citation critiqued here is solely used to support the uncontroversial fact that there were 12 Waldorf schools in North America in 1968. This is not a controversial question; though the article is actually cogent, I would not use the source for other purposes, and would have been happy to have looked for a better source had the choice been questioned at any point after I added this text. (In response to concerns raised here, I have now replaced the citation.)
- Why would we want to keep material not supported by its own citation? See discussion about this on the article talk page Talk:Waldorf_education#ReVision, where another editor points out that the article text for which this citation was used turned out to be not remotely supported by it, indicative of a larger problem with whoever added this text originally.
- See the talk page discussion of tagging here. Neither in the week and a half of discussion prior to the removal of the tags, nor in the week and a half that have passed since, have any objections been made indicating that the tags should be kept. Further: the COI issue had been brought to an arbitration proceeding recently; the conclusion of this proceeding is here. The arbitrators consciously emphasized that the focus should not be on COIs, but on the policy on reliable sources as a path toward resolution. This distinction has also been raised by an administrator in the current discussion. After this arbitration proceeding, neither this nor the other tag was under current discussion, which I understand is meant to be a requirement for the tagging.
- This is the only place of all those cited where I actually removed content critical of WE. I have to confess, the theme seemed adequately covered; two paragraphs of material drawn from a single TES article seems to be a violation of WP:UNDUE, but I am open to discussion of this.
- This diff shows me adding a single phrase stating that the role of boards of Waldorf schools includes "formulating strategic plans and central policies," with a supportive citation. WP:RS states that organizations are reliable sources for information about their own workings, so long as this is not controversial. If this is highly controversial, feel free to explain why. If you believe it to be particular to North America and want to qualify the sentence to say so, this would be fine. (What's the big deal??)
- The use of jargon was criticized repeatedly by a wide spectrum of editors: Talk:Waldorf_education/Archive_11. Responding to that, I changed this terminology, the meaning of which was unlikely to be easily accessible to the general reader, to more easily comprehensible terminology. It's a little unfair to request that jargon be removed and then criticize when it is removed!
- Rather amusing. The diff indicated shows me adding the term pseudoscience to the section header, not removing it. hgilbert (talk) 01:08, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
In response to IRWolfie's diffs:
- The first diff removed an image which had been contested on the talk page as being unrelated to Waldorf education. This question had been taken to the reliable source noticeboard; the response by an outside editor was that the image was unrelated to the article, and that the source it was drawn from was an unreliable source. The second diff is removing material referenced the same article, critiqued as not a reliable source by outside editors. Incidentally, this material was later reinstated when we accepted -- despite the outside editor's critique -- that the article, though not peer-reviewed, had some claim to reliable source status. Perhaps this should be reviewed again. IRWolfie further criticizes me for trying to ensure that "all sources have to be peer reviewed"; the requirement that in this and related articles, sources for any controversial material be peer-reviewed, stems from the last arbitration proceeding. I find a critique of my following WP guidelines a little odd.
- This is actually a diff of changes made to a different article. The claim for BD was sourced to an organization named ISIS, which as far as I understood is notable in organic agriculture circles. There was further discussion of this at the time; I believe the material was removed as a result.
- This diff shows a change that kept all relevant text, including the author of the citation, and only took out the name of the book cited, which is easily found in the reference. This follows standard WP practice; we don't usually mention (inline) the name of the books or journal articles referenced in discussions of this source.
- These are critiques of my attempting to remove material sourced to a blog, in accordance with clear WP policy. Again IRWolfie critiques me for trying to ensure that sources for controversial material are peer-reviewed, in accordance with the very clear arbitration guidelines laid down for this article. (I am puzzled.) Incidentally, if you read the diff claimed to be calling for "tag teaming", I had made an erroneous reversion (to the wrong version) and was requesting help to sort this out.
- IRWolfie is right here; the citation contains an extract from a WP article, which I had not noticed, and should be removed. (I will do this.) Done
In response to A13ean:
- According to WP:RS, sources are not less usable merely because they are "difficult to access academic sources" (!!) Nor does a source's being written in a foreign language have any bearing. Much was made about using only very high quality sources about WE, and some of these will tend to be in German by the nature of the beast.
- authors with some connection to Waldorf education were not excluded by the original arbitration proceeding, which required that, regardless of the author, works be peer-reviewed, rather than published by Waldorf publishers, but emphasized that this would especially be true for those involved in the movement. Peer review and the general standards for RSs are the point.
- Steiner's own writings were explicitly excluded by the original arbitration proceedings however, at least when controversial; we were required to use secondary sources evaluating his thinking instead, for reasons that were amply clear at the time.
- I will not respond to each diff, but as an example of the misrepresentations presented here, the claim that I changed "Biodynamic agriculture has been characterized as pseudoscience by scholars" to "Biodynamic agriculture has been the subject of serious scientific study" is false. I changed a "criticism" section to a "reception" section in line with WP guidelines on WP:Criticism sections, and added additional text without removing the pseudoscience attribution. hgilbert (talk) 20:42, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
More generally: I have been striving to bring a neutral point of view in a situation that has been historically, and continues to be, highly polarized. There are a number of editors who seem primarily interested in bringing negative critiques into the article, and others who primarily interested in positive views. There are virtually no neutral voices. I have been trying to keep to the RS policy as the path forward. As a result, a number of questions have been brought to the RS noticeboard recently; Looking at the talk page, it seems clear that the mood is generally of fruitful discussion. I believe I consistently seek a positive solution and am willing to use consensus and compromise, respecting all points of view. hgilbert (talk) 02:21, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- Images
The two images (of Lemuria and the human heart) were added by User:Alexbrn, following a persistent pattern of POI-pushing on the critics' side.
- COI tag
In defense of the removal of COI tagging--which I grant is not normally a good idea:
- since the tagging there had been an arbitration which had found that the COI I was accused of was not relevant to the case (pointing us to RS policy instead)
- after I proposed removing the two tags, NPOV and COI, there had been a week and a half of discussion in which no one spoke up against this removal (nor has anyone questioned the removal on the talk page since)
Nevertheless, I clearly should have requested others to remove it rather than removing it myself. I apologize. hgilbert (talk) 10:27, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- The recent arbitration discussion I refer to is [48] (see second half of page). Though COI issues were raised by editors offering opinions, not one of the arbitrators mentions these issues in either the Arbitrator views and discussion or Motion: Waldorf education discretionary sanctions. They urge us to focus on reliable sources: "the original ruling has long been overtaken by our evolving policies on reliable sourcing".
- As Nil Einne mentions below, s/he had also explicitly stated at WP:ANI that "the thing to concentrate on why the edits were bad or controversial, not whether or not the editor has a COI. Concentrating on the COI misses the point because someone is not going to be blocked simply because they were editing when they had a COI, even if the edits were controversial and many question whether the COI should even come in to the block (perhaps the length of the block only). As Hgilbert mentioned, this has been reaffirmed in other cases." I assumed from Nil Einne's contribution at ANI that this editor is an administrator and took his/her comments on the case to be clear direction that we should focus on issues such as RS, NPOV, and working on consensus.
Due to the above rulings and comments by admins, and the complete lack of dissent to the removal of the COI tag when I raised this, I understood that the removal was both in line with the current understanding of the article sanctions and undisputed. I'm shocked that users who had a chance to question the suggested removal on the talk page, and did not, are raising this as an issue here. (Having said this, I still recognize that someone else should have been the one to take the tag off.) hgilbert (talk) 13:26, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- Discretionary sanctions
The text of the discretionary sanctions states: "Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working on a page within the area of conflict (or for whom discretionary sanctions have otherwise been authorized) if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to a topic within the area of conflict or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; imposition of mandated external review; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project."
I believe I have adhered to the purpose of Wikipedia, consistently followed consensus processes (look at the talk page for confirmation), and applied the RS policy at a high standard. Again, I ask: examine the diff over the relevant period, and the discussions on the talk page over this time (or before): what in this constitutes any contravention whatsoever of the discretionary sanctions? hgilbert (talk) 10:18, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
- Use of sources
- Not to drag this on, but as an example of the real issue here, a number of the above diffs relate to removal of material from an article by Jelinek and Sun. See the talk page discussion of the use of this article as a primary source, in which outside editors called in through a RSN appeal stated clearly that this should not be treated as a reliable source for the article. This confusion is exemplary. hgilbert (talk) 12:25, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
- See Talk:Waldorf_education#ReVision for an ongoing example of various approaches to introducing and sourcing statements. Draw your own conclusions. hgilbert (talk) 17:00, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Statement by IRWolfie-
Comment with several diffs and links demonstrating a long term civil POV push |
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Older diffs, showing long term issue with regards to Steiner:
Hgilbert is a case of long term (very long term), and slow dedicated POV pushing across all Steiner topics. It's not something that can be easily shown with diffs. It's an accumulation of incidents like the above, and small things like making a point that being listed in an encyclopedia of pseudoscience isn't the same as being listed as pseudoscience in an encyclopedia Talk:Biodynamic_agriculture#Pseudoscience. Arguing via original research to not have biodynamic agriculture be described as being characterized as pseudoscience : Talk:Biodynamic_agriculture#Agricultural_technique_vs._science, arguing that there is a lack of sources Talk:Biodynamic_agriculture#Lead while having been present in a discussion where multiple sources were presented: Talk:List_of_topics_characterized_as_pseudoscience/Archive_14#Biodynamics. These small niggly things all add up over the years though, leading to white washed articles. IRWolfie- (talk) 01:31, 12 March 2013 (UTC) |
- On point 4 raised by Binksternet. [58] used here [59] by Hgilbert, is a copy and paste of History of Waldorf schools. That Hgilbert didn't spot that the source he was citing, which was probably his very own words since he wrote the initial Waldort history article, was copied off wikipedia should speak volumes about Hgilbert's use of sourcing, IRWolfie- (talk) 01:43, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- Hgilbert, if you did make an erroneous revert, why didn't you just revert yourself? Or do you acknowledge that you were bypassing 3RR by asking another editor to do it for you? I am also aware that the diffs don't exclusively cover Waldorf, my point is that you are problematic with edits related to Steiner broadly construed (which should fall under fringe DS). IRWolfie- (talk) 10:37, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
- @Sandstein, he non-Waldorf diffs I've shown here show a pattern of behaviour within fringe science, perhaps Hgilbert could be officially warned about discretionary sanctions within Fringe science and pseudoscience broadly construed (under this case Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Pseudoscience#Discretionary_sanctions)? IRWolfie- (talk) 10:47, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
@Hgilbert, showing a diff over an extended period is meaningless. If I had shown, for example [60] and said that people should spot the problem in the text, it would ignore the fact that someone went 3RR in that same period. A single Diff grouping actions from many editors won't show anything here if the other editors have been dealing with the problems you have caused, we have to look at your edits, IRWolfie- (talk) 15:26, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Alexbrn
More diffs showing long-term POV pushing. Hgilbert's edits are a constant lapping tide, continually eroding the article's neutrality:
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- diff removing text that bears on the crucial question of whether Waldorf education is religious (crucial, from a COI perspective, because American state funding relies on it not being). When challenged Hgilbert stated this had been an error and reinstated this text.
- diff inserting into the lead a claim of universal fact, that research has found Waldorf education to "to foster a high degree of social competency", ignoring the express caveats and limitations of the sources (discussion here).
- diff making another claim of fact about the "conclusion" of a research report, ignoring the tentative and caveated nature of the original's (inconclusive) text (discussion here).
- diff removing a {{rs}} tag from a data analysis claim sourced to the Waldorf Today web site on the grounds that it is a "well-established news outlet".
- diff inserting (in 2006!) a claim that UNESCO had praised a Waldorf organization as being "of tremendous consequence in the conquest of apartheid", and sourcing it to a UNESCO document and to a polemical piece in a non-RS publication. The problem: the quotation appears to have been completely fabricated by the non-RS source - it's not in the UNESCO document.
- diff inserting (in 2007!) a claim of fact that Australian Waldorf students have been found to outperform all others at University (Hgilbert also recently re-inserted this content). On investigation it turns out this brave claim is sourced to an interview with a Masters student on an Australian local radio station who "sounded as if [he] was about to publish his thesis".
Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 05:51, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Nil Einne
This is mostly an aside to the case and I pointed it out at WP:ANI but it seems it's not getting across so I'll mention it again. Our COI policy does not forbid people with a COI from making controversial edits. Rather it strongly discourages people with a COI from making edits (for a number of reasons), particularly those who can be regarded as paid avocates, but says making uncontroversial edits may be okay. This was basically what the arbcom case said as well. When we say 'strongly discourage' we mean it, we strongly discourage it but we don't forbid it. This isn't like a political case where someone says 'strongly discourage/encourage' but what they actual mean is 'do or don't do this or else'. This is an important distinction because as I also remarked in the ANI, the thing to concentrate on why the edits were bad or controversial, not whether or not the editor has a COI. Concentrating on the COI misses the point because someone is not going to be blocked simply because they were editing when they had a COI, even if the edits were controversial and many question whether the COI should even come in to the block (perhaps the length of the block only). As Hgilbert mentioned, this has been reaffirmed in other cases. Nil Einne (talk) 08:27, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
Statement by Jellypear
I have attempted to condense the following points raised previously as a courtesy to editors and administrators.
In the approximately two months that I have been following the Waldorf education page, Binksternet has been involved in trying to apply sanctions to hgilbert twice already. It seems the preferred method of dealing with hgilbert on the part of some editors is not to deal with his edits in a timely manner but to collect a list of grievances and see what sticks. I view the wide-ranging nature of the discussion here (over an indefinite period of time, a range of issues and over multiple pages) as part of a continued attempt to get hgilbert banned from editing in this area. One would think asking for sanctions is a "last resort" kind of measure and that we would see clear evidence of editors trying to work out specific problems with hgilbert themselves before asking for sanctions. I think part of the issue is that some editors seem to believe that hgilbert is subject to unique COI restrictions. Binksternet and other editors who don’t claim real life participation in PLANS - the other organization specifically named in the Arbcom decision – seem to feel that if they find hgilbert’s edits to be controversial he is violating the Arbcom decision. In other words, the COI only works one way and all disagreements are presumably grounded in him being "tainted" by COI. I agree with Nil Einne’s views on this. COI can exist in many ways and so conversation should concentrate on why edits are bad and not the possible motivations of editors. In the month leading up to the request, there was little discussion in talk, no issues taken out to noticeboards, and only two reverts of hgilbert’s edits. The two reverts were once by me [[61]] and once by Binksternet [[62]]. Hgilbert accepted both of these reversions without discussion or conflict. This stands in contrast to the month prior, wherein multiple n/or and RS issues had to be discussed and referred out and some edit warring occurred. As messy and difficult as that process was, it did work and no editors were referred here for their behavior. Up until the filing here I thought things were working (more or less) smoothly given the lack of discussion and reversions. However, now the same WP:SYNTH, WP:PERTINENCE and WP:RS issues that had to be referred to noticeboards are being brought up again as evidence of hgilbert’s individual bias without that proper context being included. [[63]] [[64]] [[65]]
Unfortunately, these reliable source issues are ongoing. Binksternet feels that the pseudoscience page categorization is warranted by presenting papers self-published by two advocacy organizations and/or by making a synthetic argument in which he even admits that the reliable sources do not make the explicit claim that Waldorf education is pseudoscience. [[66]]. Of course, these are questions that ought to be discussed on the basis of what the reliable sources say rather than being brought here. It is Binksternet who has actually disrupted the project's progress by not letting this work itself out through normal channels.
All in all, the period involving the diffs presented by Binksternet, shows the opposite of someone "repeatedly or seriously [failing] to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process." The project was working as designed---at least as measured by the lack of disputes, controversies, reversions, edit warring and major problems in the diffs binksternet provided. All that being said, hgilbert’s removal of his own COI tag was wrong, even if other editors had ample opportunity to object before and after it happened. The lack of commentary was not a sufficient basis for action. There should have been some affirmation that it was time for it to be taken off. Thank you. Jellypear (talk) 08:41, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Statement by a13ean
Hgilbert seems like a pretty nice guy, and over the past eight years and (at the time of writing) exactly 10k edits, has made many positive contributions to wikipedia. However, he has also continually and consistently pushed a POV at pages related to the works of Rudolph Steiner, which he almost exclusively edits.
Not all the complaints brought here have merit; the heart and Lemuria images in particular shouldn't have been in the article (although there's other images in the article with even less context). Similarly not everyone here has clean hands with regard to editing in this area, and anyone is of course welcome to investigate my conduct in this area. However, Hgilbert in particular has continued to inappropriately push a POV despite repeated warnings. I previously laid out my concerns here and include my selection of diffs below for reference. HGilbert's response at that time can be seen here.
Several diffs illustrating civil pov-pushing |
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HGilbert at Waldorf Education A selection of diffs made to WE in the past month
Hgilbert has also made nearly 700 edits to the article talk page, the tone of which is best observed by browsing through the archives. Hgilbert at Biodynamic Agriculture
Other edits by Hglibert
|
Of particular concern to me is misrepresentation and cherry-picking of positive material from sources, especially foreign-language and difficult to access academic sources; compare for example the article in Die Welt linked above to what it was used to source. Removing tags, misleading edit summaries, and canvassing ([73] [74] [75] [76] [77] [78]) are also a continued concern as noted above and by others. I am sure he could contribute positively to wikipedia in other areas, but I feel that his edits to these controversial areas have not, in net, helped build a better encyclopedia.
Statement by other editor
Result concerning Hgilbert
This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
I haven't yet made my way through all the evidence, but I might make a couple of initial observations. Firstly, topics concerning pseudoscience are problematic IMO not only because there are advocates on one side of the fence who try to promote their favoured theories, but also because there are sceptics on the other side who actively try to use Wikipedia as a vehicle for discrediting the same. Both approaches violate core policy and are potentially sanctionable, and a preliminary look at the evidence suggests a degree of problematic editing on both sides in this particular article, though I am yet to form an opinion as to whether any of it is sufficiently serious to warrant sanctions.
Secondly, while Hgilbert was found to have a COI at the original case, there is a difference between COI and paid advocacy, and no-one has accused Hgilbert of the latter. AFAIK there is no compunction on editors with a mere COI to discuss changes to articles prior to making them, so Binksternet's calls for sanctions based on that criterion alone don't appear to be actionable.
I expect to have more to say about the particular diffs a little later. Gatoclass (talk) 06:44, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- Okay, I have finished a preliminary review of the evidence. Some of the diffs are very old and not actionable. A lot of others involve discussions about reliability of sources which would be difficult to resolve here in a timely manner, if at all, and with regard to most of these diffs no evidence of edit warring has been presented. That leaves a relatively small number of diffs to take a closer look at.
- Firstly, this diff where Hgilbert removes a COI tag from the Waldorf education article. I can't think of any good reason why a user found by ARBCOM to have a COI in a given topic area should be taking it upon himself to remove such tags from an article in that topic area on which the user in question is or has been active. That alone I would consider to be a sanctionable offence. Secondly, this diff where Hgilbert adds content from a source which labels that very content with a "citation needed" tag. Hgilbert was cited for use of questionable sources in the original case, though that occurred a long time ago, and he needs to ensure that content is properly cited per WP:RS. Since Hgilbert has not previously been blocked or banned for inappropriate editing in the six years since the original case, I think a warning would probably suffice here. For removing the COI tag, I would suggest a one month topic ban for a first offence, with a warning that escalating sanctions may apply for future offences.
- One further comment: while some of Hgilbert's edits may indeed be problematic, so too IMO is some of the content he has been removing, for example, an image of a human heart[79] and an image of the "mythical continent of Lemuria".[80] Misuse of images, quoteboxes etc. to highlight prejudicial content as a method of circumventing WP:UNDUE is a typical tactic of POV-pushers, and these images also strike me as violations of WP:SYNTH as their immediate relevance to the article topic is questionable. Some of the other diffs also indicate similar problems. I don't know who added these images or when they were added, but warnings might also be appropriate here. Anyway that pretty much summarizes my initial response to this request; I invite further commentary from my colleagues. Gatoclass (talk) 08:27, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
@Hgilbert: You would have to point me to the case in which "an arbitration" found your COI was not relevant before I could reconsider the above recommendation. Thanks, Gatoclass (talk) 11:15, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- After checking only whether the formal requirements for arbitration enforcement are met, it appears that all edits submitted as evidence were made prior to the warning of 11 March 2013 by Binksternet that is cited in the request. In my view, this rules out imposing sanctions based on these edits. Additionally, the diff of that warning does not meet the requirements of WP:AC/DS#Warnings, because it does not contain a link to the decision authorizing sanctions. (Yes, Hgilbert was a party to the original case, but the wording of WP:AC/DS does not make an exception to the requirement for a warning for such editors.) Accordingly, it seems that, based on the situation as described in the request, the most that we are authorized to do is issue correct warnings to all who may need them. (I also note that the request is 739 words long and needs to be shortened.) Sandstein 18:58, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
- Regarding the date of any proper warning of the DS to Hgilbert: I would nominate this post by an Arbcom clerk to Hgilbert, notifying him of the motion just passed. This edit happened on 30 January 2013. EdJohnston (talk) 19:13, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
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- Well... yes, but that is a "courtesy notice" about a motion imposing discretionary sanctions, not a "warning" as required by WP:AC/DS#Warnings. Sorry if I appear to be splitting procedural hairs here, or in the request concerning Soosim above, but I feel that is important that we are conservative in interpreting the boundaries of the wording of the provisions that authorize us to impose wide-ranging sanctions at our own discretion. Sandstein 20:17, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
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- I have always assumed that WP:AC/DS#Warnings was intended to apply to users not party to the original case. This is because the warning in effect formally notifies users that discretionary sanctions apply. For users party to the original case, the warning is not necessary because they obviously already know that discretionary sanctions apply. Gatoclass (talk) 04:59, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
- That is a reasonable assumption. (In this case, DS were added later, but Hgilbert was notified of that, as EdJohnston mentioned above.) It's just that I personally prefer to err on the side of caution. I understand that AGK (talk · contribs) is working on motions to clarify that DS require only a notification rather than a warning about the case. I prefer to wait on that clarification, but you are of course free to proceed as you deem appropriate. Sandstein 05:41, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
- I have always assumed that WP:AC/DS#Warnings was intended to apply to users not party to the original case. This is because the warning in effect formally notifies users that discretionary sanctions apply. For users party to the original case, the warning is not necessary because they obviously already know that discretionary sanctions apply. Gatoclass (talk) 04:59, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
- Considering that the request and the statements (notably that by IRWolfie-) are grounds for concern about the neutrality of Hgilbert's editing, I've issued formally correct warnings concerning Waldorf education and pseudoscience at [81]. I noted that this is without prejudice to the definitive disposition of this request, in the event that any of you are of the view that there is a basis for sanctions even prior to these warnings. Sandstein 18:56, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
- By virtue of being party (thus knowing the Article Probation remedy) to the original case - which caused him to be notified when the Article Probation was superseded by DS - it is reasonable to assume that he understands the remedies. Also, these days findings such as this would probably earn him a remedy or 2 against him directly (instead of article probation across the board - this is just my opinion, though). Thus, I would think this is grounds for sanction as he probably should know better. - Penwhale | dance in the air and follow his steps 23:36, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
- Perhaps I should clarify at this point that I am still assessing the evidence here and hope to offer some conclusions some time over the next few days. There are a lot of diffs to look at and a number of issues to consider, so it's not the type of request that lends itself to a quick resolution. Gatoclass (talk) 11:26, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
Apologies for the delay in getting back to this, I have had a busy week with little time for Wikipedia. Tonight I went back through the supplied diffs above alleging misconduct by Hgilbert, and while many of them are old and many others concern what I would probably characterize as legitimate content disputes, I nonetheless found a number of diffs that are of concern. In brief, they are as follows:
- Embellishing source: [82] as discussed here: [83] Summary: Hgilbert adds "research reports have found lower levels of harassment and bullying in Waldorf schools but the source states that in a study of just one Steiner school "Its findings suggest that there may be lower levels of bullying in Steiner schools".
- Embellishing source: [84] Summary: Hgilbert adds "A review of studies of Waldorf education concluded that the education is "successful in its aim to educate human beings ...", but the source says "[One] study, however, does suggest that Steiner education is successful in its aim to educate human beings ...".
- Embellishing source: [85] Summary: Hgilbert adds Waldorf education has been found to foster a high degree of social competency to the lead, but when challenged on the talk page backtracks to the position that the schools seek to foster social responsibility.
- Citing source[86] which turns out to originate from wikipedia (although not identified as wikipedia-based in the source).[87][88] The original wikipedia text was actually written by Hgilbert himself in 2006,[89] so he was in effect citing to himself, although he or somebody else did eventually add an (offline) source for the original wikipedia text.[90]
- Apparent canvassing,[91] [92] [93] [94] [95] [96] although if Hgilbert can show me evidence he canvassed editors on the other side of the debate these diffs might be considered legitimate.
- Invitation to tag team: [97] (May 2012).
These diffs mostly cover a period of the last three months, and indicate to me a degree of problematic editing in the topic area, at the very least a carelessness in citing sources that is not appropriate for someone previously cited in an Arbcom case for precisely this kind of misconduct. These edits may well result from an excess of enthusiasm for the topic on Hgilbert's part rather than an intention to mislead, but that is why we have a policy on COI. Then there is the apparent canvassing, which is infrequent but does indicate a persistent difficulty in abiding by the relevant policy. The tag teaming invitation is totally inappropriate and cynical (witness the edit summary), but is a rather old diff. Added to the above is the removal of the COI tag I mentioned above.
On the other hand, the original Arbcom case is pretty old now and Hgilbert has avoided sanctions for the last six years. Neither has he had a warning in that time, although a recent AN/I thread might be considered a reminder to exercise caution. Nor, it must be said, has any evidence been presented that Hgilbert has attempted to edit war over the above misstatements. In summary, I'm not sure what to do here. I should add that the conduct of some other editors may also require scrutiny, but I haven't found the time to do that yet and probably won't be able to do so until Tuesday at the earliest. Gatoclass (talk) 13:55, 24 March 2013 (UTC)