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I'm no longer an administrator, so if you're looking for someone to undelete something I deleted, you'd be better off asking at WP:REFUND
Position Essays may help you understand my point of view with regard to...
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Maybe stop doing that
Your post in Oathkeeper was a bit attack-y, don't you think? I find it amazing that you jump down my throat over a matter that I did not start, over content that should not be in the article, instead of focusing on the one person who fought tooth and nail against no less than three different consensus' and RfCs. I think that, at best, you might want to rephrase your snarky post about my Wikipedia experience. And I am saying please. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 17:08, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
- No attack intended or implied. No jumping down anyone's throat here, although I get that you might think that. If you'll check around, you'll find I have a reputation for being blunt, and that's exactly what I'm doing here:
- 1) Wikipedia works on consensus, and you're in such a minority view that everyone else who started out supporting your viewpoint has wandered off. If this were a win/lose game, you'd be losing badly.
- 2) But it's NOT a win-lose game. We all win when good content is added, and all lose when pointless debates bog things down such that content creators are busy doing other stuff instead of creating or improving content.
- 3) The WP:STICK reference is itself WP:AGFing that if you weren't mired in the debate that you are perpetuating, you'd be off adding or improving content. You genuinely seem like a fastidious and conscientious chap who'd be off improving things if you weren't arguing about something you find objectionable but no one else does.
- Fact is, I disagree with your position, and think your cavalier use of "fancruft" is both wildly inaccurate in this context (really... have you SEEN some of the real fancruft around here?) and needlessly pejorative, but that's not why I said what I did. Rather, I hope you can just accept that your viewpoint hasn't been supported, leave the particular disagreement behind, and move on to other matters. People who cannot do so don't last long on Wikipedia--not because they're banned or driven off, but because their inability to work in a place where their strongly held views are rejected becomes self-liming. Please don't let that be you. Jclemens (talk) 03:18, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for letting me know that it was just my perception, and that no snark was intended. As for my rep for being blunt, you will have to fotgive me; I have less time for tolerating bullshit on WIkipedia than some. More power to those who do.
- I realize that the side not in favor of inclusion has either wandered off or been worn down by another user's (four) months' long efforts to include the material, despite any and all consensus. It has been an instructive period for me, as well: determination is a lot more important than being right. Not the best lesson, but the one best demonstrated in that article. Live and learn.
- I am not going to address the content anymore, since a new consensus has emerged. In fact, consensus has been forcibly pushed one way, and most of the dissenters, doing this for free, simply realized that we weren't getting paid to deal with the sort of personality and stubbornness that one user exhibited that most wandered off. So consensus will remain in place...until someone uses the argument to include fan sites that are slightly less acceptable, using this example. Then less acceptable and then even less acceptable. That's how a slippery slope works. Allowing fan sites is an incredibly bad idea, but some lessons have to be learned the hard way.
- Anyhoo, I'm done with the argument about the content. If it sounds like there are hard feelings, well, there are. However, that'll fade as I work other articles in my free time. I can see why my Dad didn't come back to Wikipedia after his health improved. Einstein said there are only two infinite things, and this four-month misadventure has been an object lesson in the other one.
- Again, thanks for letting me know that no insult was intended, and thanks for also taking the time to respond. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 05:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
- Jack's representation of the dispute is not entirely accurate. He claims that I've been forcibly pushing against consensus and that is not true. The consensus of previous parts of the discussion was never "don't include this content"; it was "don't use this/that specific source." So I found better ones. I also repeatedly asked other participants if they had any objections to this material other than sourcing and repeatedly got the answer "No," including from Jack. But it's possible that what Jack's really objecting to is, "Hey I wasn't always the only one arguing my side; sometimes it was the other side that had only one person," and that is true. Sometimes I was the only one. If you're wondering why Doniago, DonQuixote or Diego aren't still participating, the best thing to do is to ask them, not Jack or myself.
- The slippery slope is another non-problem. You know better than either Jack or me that Westeros.org has been used on Wikipedia for years. But before finding out that all the GA articles used Westeros.org, I proposed using a high-quality fanblog article written by Ana Carol.[1] Even though it was on a professionally laid out site, even though Ms. Carol was a named member of its staff with credentials provided, even though it was cited to support an extremely lightweight claim, it still didn't make the cut. If there were a slippery slope, this is where we'd have slipped. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:12, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
- Darkfrog, that's not helpful either. I'm perfectly capable of drawing my own conclusions about things, and if you'll read WP:STICK yourself, you'll see that it also equally applies to 'winners' in a debate. My advice to let the thing die a natural death, move on, and add or improve content applies equally to all participants. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 21:50, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
- The article content is not what motivated that post. To put it as mildly as possible, I don't like it when people say things about me that aren't true. Jack's talking to you, that's his and your business. Jack's making accusations about me to you, that's my business. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:06, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
- If you want to work on Wikipedia, get used to people lying about you--or rather, speaking about things from their own perspective in a manner that you view as so divergent from actual reality that it is indistinguishable from malicious falsehood. Let your own record and conduct speak for itself and ignore the rest, or else you, too, will get too worked up to be effective on Wikipedia. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 04:37, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
- The article content is not what motivated that post. To put it as mildly as possible, I don't like it when people say things about me that aren't true. Jack's talking to you, that's his and your business. Jack's making accusations about me to you, that's my business. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:06, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
- Darkfrog, that's not helpful either. I'm perfectly capable of drawing my own conclusions about things, and if you'll read WP:STICK yourself, you'll see that it also equally applies to 'winners' in a debate. My advice to let the thing die a natural death, move on, and add or improve content applies equally to all participants. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 21:50, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for this most astute statement. (Littleolive oil (talk) 15:50, 7 December 2014 (UTC))
Good to see you around
Hey Jclemens, good to see you around. Have ayed you on autopatrolled, rollback & pending. Write back if you want any other assistance any time. Wifione Message 14:43, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks. I won't be dedicating scads of time to Wikipedia, but if I see a fixable problem, I'll do what I've always done, and, well, fix it. I've added a few refs to User:Jclemens/Nac Mac Feegle. Take a gander at the diffs since you restored it. I'd like to get it back into mainspace promptly, so others can see and improve the cruftiness bits, now that I've gone ahead and added 3 RS'es which should at least minimally adequately document notability. Let me know how much more you'd like to see done before mainspacing. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 23:16, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
- I guess I had deleted the article based on an AfD. Your opinion is as good, if not better, than mine on the notability of an article. I respect you on that. So if you believe the article is notable enough, please move it to mainspace whenever you feel like. Thanks and regards. Wifione Message 04:10, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- Right, but I'm not an admin anymore, so rather than me just saying "in my judgment, what I've done satisfies the notability objection in the original AfD and sufficiently changes the article that G4 no longer applies", even though I made those assessments daily for five years or so, I'll defer to the judgment of the deleting admin. If I'm right and it's adequate, positional power should be meaningless, and if you disagree, I'll keep working on it until you're satisfied. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 04:20, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- I guess I had deleted the article based on an AfD. Your opinion is as good, if not better, than mine on the notability of an article. I respect you on that. So if you believe the article is notable enough, please move it to mainspace whenever you feel like. Thanks and regards. Wifione Message 04:10, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
- I am agreeing that it's nice seeing you around. Happy days.—John Cline (talk) 04:37, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
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- JClemens, good evening. I'm not actually the right guy to comment on the work you've done. My personal opinion is that because the first reference comes in the section on Language, and there is no referencing in the paragraphs above, there always might be a question or two raised about lack of referencing. That's just my opinion. I trust your sensibilities completely. If you wish me to move the article to mainspace, I will without any prejudices. Please do advise. Thanks. Wifione Message 03:41, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
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- I leave for a bit and I see that you've been subjected to a bit of a fuss. Wasn't a pleasant thing when it was done to me either. I've added two more Google News finds from just their current trove, and am more frustrated than ever with the in-universe tone of the current article--it makes it hard to find relevant spots to hang legitimate references, without the complete rewrite which I have no time to do. To avoid imposing on you further, I'm moving my draft back into mainspace, where it can be more appropriately cleaned up and referenced by the community as a whole. Again, I've not the time to make it a GA or anything of the sort, but just have demonstrated real-world coverage in a number of third-party, independent reliable sources, which both substantially change the article from the state at which it was when deleted, as well as answer the notability concerns that prompted the AfD in the first place. Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 07:45, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
Merry Christmas!
I'm wishing you a Merry Christmas, because that is what I celebrate. If you don't like Christmas or just don't celebrate it in any of its forms, then please accept a generic "Happy Holidays". If you celebrate no holidays at this time of year, then hopefully you will be satisfied with an even more generic "Season's Greetings". :)
Art+Feminism Wikipedia Edit-a-thon, Portland Oregon (March 7, 2015)
You are invited!
- Saturday, March 7: Art+Feminism – noon to 5pm
- Wikipedia Edit-a-thon at the Portland Art Museum's Crumpacker Family Library (Mark Building, 2nd Floor; 1219 SW Park Avenue). Art+Feminism is a campaign to improve coverage of women and the arts on Wikipedia. No Wikipedia editing experience necessary; as needed throughout the event, tutoring will be provided for Wikipedia newcomers. Female editors are particularly encouraged to attend. Attendees should bring their own laptops and power cords.
Hope you can make it! If you have any questions or require any special accommodations, please let me know.
Thanks,
To unsubscribe from this newsletter, remove your name from this list. -MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 04:19, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia:WikiProject Fire Service
Hello and good afternoon (at least it is afternoon where I am). I was looking at the Wikipedian firefighters category and noticed that you are one of the members of the Wikipedia community that lists yourself as being a firefighter. First and foremost let me say thank you for your service. While I myself am not a firefighter, I do work as a photographer with multiple local fire departments. I am honored to have firefighters as some of my closest friends.
I have been taking an active role in the Fire Service WikiProject and am trying to recruit more members to this cause. If this is something you have any interest in, please let me know? You can leave me a message on my talk page. Obviously there is zero obligation. An interest can be anything from helping out with a couple of pages in your local area to helping to overhaul major templates, and anything in between.
Once again, thank you for your service. Hope to hear from you soon. Stay safe! --Zackmann08 (talk) 17:52, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia Women's Health Information Edit-a-thon: Tuesday, May 12 at OHSU
You are invited!
- Tuesday, May 12, 2015: Wikipedia Women's Health Information Edit-a-thon – 1 to 4pm
- Wikipedia Edit-a-thon hosted by OHSU's Center for Women's Health in honor of National Women's Health Week
- Location: Biomedical Information Communications Center (3280 SW Sam Jackson Park Road, Portland, OR 97239)
- This edit-a-thon is intended to address some of these important differences and to generally improve women’s health information in key articles and topics. Areas for improvement have been identified in cooperation with WikiProject Medicine. Prior Wikipedia editing is not required; assistance will be available the day of the event. Attendees should bring their own laptops and power cords.
Hope you can make it! If you have any questions or require any special accommodations, please post to the event page.
Thanks,
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