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Oldest holding cell inmate
The oldest entry in the holding cell is:
- 2012 October 30 – Infobox NFL coach ( links | talk | doc | sandbox | testcases ) – Merge into {{Infobox NFL player}} to create {{Infobox NFL biography}} pending outcome of discussion at WT:NFL.
Which was closed almost two and half years ago. Surely we can put this to bed, now? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:47, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks for inquiring, Andy. The merge effort is being coached by Frietjes, who has built a cooperative relationship with WP:NFL and WP:CFB. She has already made preliminary modifications of the coach infobox to facilitate the merge, but there will likely be significant changes to the template based on the input of WP:NFL members before the merge is completed. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:54, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
- THank you. Please provide a link(s) to the relavant discussion(s). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:50, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- Please see Frietjes' talk page; there is also a preliminary discussion of required changes among WP:NFL members in my user sandbox space. If you would like to participate in a discussion about which current parameters should be removed or restricted in order to reduce the often ridiculously long sues of this infobox, please feel free to do so. If you want to understand the evolving thinking of long-time sports editors regarding player infoboxes, there are also a series of related and enlightening discussions on the talk page of WP:NBA.
- As one other editor succinctly stated the fundamental issue: "WP:IBX encourages keeping infobxes as small as possible. 'When considering any aspect of infobox design, keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize key facts that appear in the article. The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance.' Too often fields are added in an infobox to compensate for laziness in finding the proper location in prose."
- IMHO, those are words of wisdom to live by, and rooted in the text of the infobox guidelines. If you internalize that, you will understand why I believe that the amalgamation/consolidation of related but distinctly different templates, with an ever wider variety of optional parameters, is often a bad idea. Sometimes amalgamation/consolidation via TfM makes perfect sense; sometimes it contributes to cruft and unnecessarily long infoboxes contrary to IBX's fundamental design principles. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:04, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- But not all parameters of these consolidated infoboxes are meant to be used in any one article. There often are separate examples and code samples for each of the infobox's uses in the documentation, as with {{Infobox officeholder}}. Alakzi (talk) 18:01, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, Alakzi, I'm aware of that; the problem is that a simple consolidation and the simple versions of the so-called "wrappers" do not prevent the importation of inappropriate parameters into the wrong use. I'm a big fan of keeping it simple, designing for actual users, and giving them the right menu from which to choose. For every simple "wrapper" with which I have ever worked, I have witnessed newbies, IPs or OCD users attempt to import parameters from the master template which were never intended for the particular use. I think the quoted part of the WP:IBX guideline above contemplates this. We have created versions of various infoboxes that include 40+ individual datapoints in actual use and sometimes run 18+ screen inches. Not only is it horrible layout and design from a graphics perspective, it's also directly contrary to one of the fundamental infobox design principles of the guideline as written. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:29, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- @Dirtlawyer1: Please provide links to those discussions, as I requested a month ago. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:31, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
- Noted that, after almost two months, no links have been provdied. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:11, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
- But not all parameters of these consolidated infoboxes are meant to be used in any one article. There often are separate examples and code samples for each of the infobox's uses in the documentation, as with {{Infobox officeholder}}. Alakzi (talk) 18:01, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
- THank you. Please provide a link(s) to the relavant discussion(s). Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:50, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
We need to move forward on this, now. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:11, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
Side effects of WP:INFOCOL
Yes, I understand there has been a concentrated effort in the past couple of years to merge similar infoboxes, per the WP:INFOCOL essay that Andy first started. I'm a little concerned that it has the unintended side effect of creating numerous infoboxes that are very long and must be template protected. For example, {{Infobox building}} is now template protected and now exceeds to data100
. I'm not sure having 100 parameters was the intention when MOS:INFOBOX#Purpose of an infobox was edited to read: "The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance. Of necessity, some infoboxes contain more than just a few fields; however, wherever possible, present information in short form, and exclude any unnecessary content". And I do not think that is in the spirit of what MOS:INFOBOX#General design considerations says about, "Creating overly long templates with a number of irrelevant fields is not recommended". I'm sure there are numerous articles with Infobox building that have that type of scenario where most of those 100 parameters are irrelevant.
And then if, per WP:INFOCOL, it supposedly "makes life easier for editors", it surely does not for those editors who do not have the template editor permission, and thus can no longer easily directly edit those infobox templates that they first started and then was subsequently merged. I don't think that possibility was ever considered on the original RFC. Infobox template are different than, say citation templates, because they are specialized depending on the group of articles they are being used on. So in the case of {{Infobox building}}, we have a wide range of parameters from topics ranging from hotels to shopping centres. And thus, fall under multiple Wikiprojects who may not have a template editor as one of their members. And thus they must wait until they get approval from a template editor. Really, it only benefits the small group of template editors for maintaining and reducing the workload of the technical aspects of template code.
Furthermore, I know a case where I myself was reverted for adding a parameter on a particular template, and the resulting discussion on that template's talk page per WP:BRD ended with no consensus, but a few months later this same parameter was added as a result of a merge (I do not think the editor who originally reverted me has ever noticed this) -- thus, in effect, the consensus on one template superseded the opposite (non)consensus of the other template. And, as I mentioned, because of merges, infoboxes would fall under multiple WikiProjects, which increases the likelihood of a similar situation I just described, where the consensus of one WikiProject gets overruled solely because the result of a merge. In essence, this has created a loophole. My occasional, and sometime rejected, proposals to add "publictransit" parameters to various infoboxes could eventually get achieved by me not lifting a finger and instead patiently waiting for other people to do various merges. And likewise, an editor could use the same loophole to add a parameter I recently objected to. And with them being all template protected, in most cases "being bold" in trying to remove these parameters is off the table.
Look, I know Andy and others here have good intentions on consolidated infoboxes, as Andy had first stated when he began WP:INFOCOL. I'm not sure if the benefits (listed on WP:INFOCOL) outweigh all the costs (the possibility of having a bunch of template-protected infoboxes, with publictransit
and over 100 other parameters). Thoughts? Zzyzx11 (talk) 03:44, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
A question for the TfD regulars: attribution of template contents?
A couple of weeks ago Dirtlawyer1 asked a few admins to consider closing some TfDs, which I didn't get around to till today. I closed all of one, then got distracted, and then realized I was unclear on something that the closing instructions didn't really directly address.
At AfD, a merge outcome results in keeping the page history of the original article for attribution purposes. At TfD, an outcome that retains the content of the template (converting to a list or category, or substing it) without keeping the template itself could result in losing the contribution history. Is it usual practice that neither the contents of the template (for conversions) nor the design (for substing) are creative elements requiring attribution? Even if the template is kept around after being substed in an article or converted to a list, is there an attribution problem with the history residing outside of articlespace? Opabinia regalis (talk) 07:27, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Opabinia regalis: I don't think the issue has been discussed before. Though I can't imagine anybody would be able to claim copyright on the contents of a list (though that mind depend on its complexity), they might be able to claim a right on its structure (see sui generis database right). Anyway, what I've seen Plastikspork do in such cases is to either (a) histmerge or (b) move the template to mainspace (without leaving a redirect) and subsequently redirect it to the article its contents had been dumped. This is probably done on a just-in-case basis, rather than out of clear conviction that attribution must be retained. Alakzi (talk) 22:49, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
- OK, thanks. I figured it was unlikely to really matter, but it's not so easy to search the archives for an example.
- I picked off a few of the obvious, already all-but-unused delete cases earlier, but haven't had time to look at some of these long discussions... Opabinia regalis (talk) 08:07, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
@Opabinia regalis: Thank you for doing this. We are still trying to recruit more admins for TfD closes. If you could close one or two TfDs per day that would be an enormous help. If we could get a pool of another three or four admins to help, all pulling about that same one-or-two-closes workload, there would be very little TfD backlog. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:39, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oops, thanks Alakzi - the AfD script deletes the redirects for you.
- Have you guys tried posting a gripe on AN to attract more attention to the problem? There's a lot of threads about excess admin backlogs at the moment. Opabinia regalis (talk) 16:53, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
NACs
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- Come to think of it, is there really any reason non-admins can't close some of these obvious delete cases and move them to a separate queue? Seems silly to break the transclusion limits just for want of a delete button. Unlike AfDs, a delete close here isn't necessarily immediately actionable, so the argument about NACs not closing with actions they can't implement isn't so relevant. Opabinia regalis (talk) 17:01, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- Alakzi has closed a few and taken some schiesse for it, including from at least one administrator. Personally, I have no problem with NAC for clear-cut non-controversial closes, but if it's less than unanimous and the template creator or adamant user objects to a deletion outcome, you can be sure there will be drama if not a DRV. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:07, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- Come to think of it, is there really any reason non-admins can't close some of these obvious delete cases and move them to a separate queue? Seems silly to break the transclusion limits just for want of a delete button. Unlike AfDs, a delete close here isn't necessarily immediately actionable, so the argument about NACs not closing with actions they can't implement isn't so relevant. Opabinia regalis (talk) 17:01, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
I've only ever closed one as delete, actually. I was - indeed - reverted by an admin; he cited WP:BADNAC but did not elaborate any further. At the time, I argued that my closure could've only had a positive impact:
a) The outcome of the discussion was uncontroversially delete.
b) The orphaning of a template is a prerequisite for its deletion.
c) The template in question was transcluded in a large number of pages. The only admin who'd ever close TfDs at the time was Martijn Hoekstra; Martin is not an AWB operator, and he would - therefore - not have been able to carry out its orphaning. After closing the discussion, he'd have listed the template in WP:TFD/HC#To orphan. Later, I'd have done the deed, and I'd have nominated the template for speedy deletion.
d) Instead, If I'd been allowed to close the discussion, I would've done so with the intention to immediately orphan the template. In essence, we'd have skipped a step or two. With Martijn gone, permitting trusted non-admins to close TfDs whose outcome is delete is more important now than it was then. Alakzi (talk) 17:48, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
- Hrmph. Did someone mark WP:NOTBURO historical while I wasn't looking?
- A thought: instead of speedy-tagging the orphaned template, leave it in the holding cell. Then the deletion is at least in principle performed by an admin who can see the context and could reverse the decision if somehow necessary, instead of someone who's just killing time whacking speedies. Opabinia regalis (talk) 08:51, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
- In fact, that is what I did. Alakzi (talk) 11:07, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
- I see. Well, that's dumb. Obvious WP:IAR case. Opabinia regalis (talk) 20:07, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
- In fact, that is what I did. Alakzi (talk) 11:07, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
Hey, guys (and girl), rather than just bitching about it, why don't you start a TfD/NAC RfC here on this talk page, state your logic for TfD NACs, the circumstances under which they should be permitted, and then let's invite some of our friends to participate. If there's a consensus for more TfD NACs, then you've got official sanction. Any time an infrequent TfD participant complains about a TfD NAC, then you can simply link to the RfC outcome. Think globally, act locally, and learn to play the game. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:17, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
- If you and Opa think that's best, then sure. Alakzi (talk) 00:37, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- So you want to sit in the backlog at WP:ANRFC instead? ;) I wrote a draft RfC below. Feel free to edit, or start over entirely. RfCs give me a headache. Opabinia regalis (talk) 02:22, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- moved the comment below from discussion section for clarity Opabinia regalis (talk) 03:34, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Opabinia regalis: It's short, sweet, and to the point. Get Alakzi's comments, and let's go live. This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 04:53, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- Looks good to me; you've captured all of my points above. Alakzi (talk) 15:16, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Alakzi and Dirtlawyer1: I noticed that Plastikspork has been quickly working through the backlog; do you guys still want to post this now? I have to run but in the absence of objections I'll do so when I get home later. Opabinia regalis (talk) 01:53, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- So you want to sit in the backlog at WP:ANRFC instead? ;) I wrote a draft RfC below. Feel free to edit, or start over entirely. RfCs give me a headache. Opabinia regalis (talk) 02:22, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
@Alakzi: There is a G7 speedy delete on June 3 -- git it! Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:03, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- I saw, but it's still used on about 50 pages. Alakzi (talk) 02:28, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
- Isn't there a close substitute that makes a redundant? With the creator's permission to delete, I think you've got effective latitude to substitute. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:38, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
RfC: Proposal to allow non-admin "delete" closures at TfD
This RfC seeks to establish consensus on the question: should experienced non-administrators be allowed to close TfD discussions with uncontroversial delete outcomes?
- Currently, the backlog at WP:TFD is so large that the transclusion limit on the page has been exceeded. Very few admins are currently active in TfD closures. Many TfD discussions are uncontroversial deletions.
- The purpose of non-admin closures of discussions is to reduce, not merely displace, admin backlogs. Per WP:NACD: "Non-administrators should not close discussions in which they lack the technical ability to act upon the outcome, such as deletion." This is particularly important at AfD, where deletion decisions are immediately actionable.
- At TfD, deletion decisions are not necessarily immediately actionable. When a discussion is closed as delete, the template in question must first be orphaned. This is within the technical ability of, and is often completed by, non-admins.
- After being orphaned, the template is listed at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Holding cell#Ready for deletion to await admin action.
- As a result of this structure, non-admin closures of discussions with uncontroversial delete outcomes would reduce the backlog at WP:TFD and permit admins active in TfD closures to concentrate on more complex cases, while still allowing a final admin review of the decision before the template is deleted.
Consensus in favor of this proposal would interpret the WP:NACD guideline as permitting delete closures of uncontroversial discussions by experienced editors where enacting the short-term outcome is within the technical ability of non-administrators. Opabinia regalis (talk) 03:37, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Survey
- Support as proposer. Opabinia regalis (talk) 03:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose. Deletion discussions, regardless of namespace, should only be closed in favor of delete by users that can actually perform the deletion. This adds a second level of bureaucracy that is unnecessary. Admins would have to re-assess the closure and come to the same conclusion before taking any action on deleting pages. Admins should be notified, and perhaps prodded, to complete these backlogs in a reasonable amount of time. Nakon 03:40, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- I wouldn't be caught dead proposing more bureaucracy ;) This discussion is the result of such a prod. Having reviewed the backlog and picked off the quick ones as I have the time, I'm convinced this is a more efficient workflow. Opabinia regalis (talk) 03:48, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- We're talking about uncontroversial closures; assessing the consensus takes literally seconds. What does require time and effort is the orphaning of the templates to be deleted, for which admins are most likely to defer to an AWB or bot operator. When that is completed, the closing admin will have to be poked, or the template moved to another section of the holding cell, or speedy-tagged. Therefore, the proposal does not displace nor increase the admin load, but reduces it. Alakzi (talk) 15:56, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support per Nakon: at TfD, the closers are not required to perform the deletion function. Non-administrators typically "orphan" the template by removing all transclusions of it, and then list the template for final deletion by an administrator. TfD has suffered from an acute shortage of closing admins in 2015, and the ability of uninvolved, knowledgeable and experienced non-admins to close non-constroversial delete outcomes would greatly alleviate the continuing backlog, and allow admins to focus on the "hard cases". Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 04:16, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support per Dirtlawyer1. Allowing non-admin "delete" closures, especially since there are only a few admins who are willing to come here to close discussions, would make the TFD process much faster. Jc86035 (talk • contribs) Use {{re|Jc86035}} to reply to me 11:50, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Jc86035: To be crystal clear, JC, I continue to believe that some TfD close calls and controversial deletes are best left to administrators in the spirit of WP:NAC. That said, there are many, if not most, TfD delete outcomes that by established precedent, prior consensus, present weight of argument, and/or clear !majority of opinion, which an experienced non-admin editor may properly close. Such logic applies equally to keep and no-consensus outcomes. Just as an administrator's close is subject to DRV review, so will any non-admin editor remain subject to review. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 12:15, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose - I'm a non-admin, but I would still be uncomfortable with any random user being able to close a TfD in this manner. It literally makes no difference; any admin is going to have to check that the close was correct anyway, so it won't speed things up in the slightest IMO, and in many cases, it will slow things down because the closer cannot delete things straight away. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:57, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- It's been explained how it'll speed things up - see my comment above and the extended proposal; do not just say "it'll slow things down IMO", but explain how. The proposal was drafted by people who are regulars at this venue and have got a pretty good understanding of the TFD workflow. Furthermore, if it "literally makes no difference", what is it that makes you uncomfortable? Perhaps it helps to think of it this way - when we !vote to delete a template, what we really care about is that the template is orphaned or replaced; its deletion can come at any (reasonable) time in the future. Alakzi (talk) 18:19, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- To me, I see there being no benefit as an administrator is going to have to check the closure. That's a given, right? So what's the point of letting a non-admin close in the first place? That is just an extra layer of bureaucracy and is not, in my opinion, actually going to speed things up. Even if a closure is completely non-controversial, an admin is still going to have to take exactly the same amount of time checking that as they would do anyway. It is also my personal opinion, and one that will not easily be changed, that you should not be able to close something in a manner that you cannot immediately act on yourself. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 18:27, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- I have explained this above. We're talking about uncontroversial closures; assessing the consensus takes literally seconds. What does require time and effort is the orphaning of the templates to be deleted, and admins are most likely to defer to an AWB or bot operator. Once the orphaning is completed, the closing admin will have to be poked, or the template moved to another section of the holding cell, or speedy-tagged. If this proposal were to pass, discussions would be closed by non-admins with the intent to immediately enact the outcome; afterwards, the orphaned templates would be listed in WP:TFD/HC#Ready for deletion for any passing admin to ascertain that the closure was - indeed - diligent and press the "delete" button. Evidently, not only does this not increase bureaucracy, but it also (a) saves us time and (b) alleviates the meaningful backlog. Alakzi (talk) 15:56, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- To me, I see there being no benefit as an administrator is going to have to check the closure. That's a given, right? So what's the point of letting a non-admin close in the first place? That is just an extra layer of bureaucracy and is not, in my opinion, actually going to speed things up. Even if a closure is completely non-controversial, an admin is still going to have to take exactly the same amount of time checking that as they would do anyway. It is also my personal opinion, and one that will not easily be changed, that you should not be able to close something in a manner that you cannot immediately act on yourself. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 18:27, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- It's been explained how it'll speed things up - see my comment above and the extended proposal; do not just say "it'll slow things down IMO", but explain how. The proposal was drafted by people who are regulars at this venue and have got a pretty good understanding of the TFD workflow. Furthermore, if it "literally makes no difference", what is it that makes you uncomfortable? Perhaps it helps to think of it this way - when we !vote to delete a template, what we really care about is that the template is orphaned or replaced; its deletion can come at any (reasonable) time in the future. Alakzi (talk) 18:19, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
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- I have little more to say, other than the fact that even with an uncontroversial closure, an admin will still have to check that the closure is valid before anything can be do. That's an increase in bureaucracy, and I do not agree with your assessment. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 23:55, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
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- Oppose - if you feel you have the skills and knowledge and judgment to make these kind of decisions, then WP:RFA is thataway. Non-admins should not be deciding to delete things, as simple as that. And in fact it just creates more work given that an admin would have to check the close anyway... GiantSnowman 19:01, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose We don't need to give the deletionists any more ability to remove content. If they can't pass RfA they can't delete templates. RfA is our measure of trustworthiness for tasks like that. Chris Troutman (talk) 22:33, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose 'Deletion discussions, regardless of namespace, should only be closed in favor of delete by users that can actually perform the deletion.' By unbundling this to non admins we would have no control whatsoever over the technical knowledge and competency of who is doing it and IMO like other minor rights it would be a magnet to wannabe admins. One could, I supppose, create a new user right for TfD Closer like we did for Template Editor but again, IMO it would just create yet another peg on the hat stand and more work for the admins at PERM. The only real solution is to either call more of our barely active admins into action, or clean up RfA once and for all, make it a less humiliating experience, and get new, keen, enthusiastic admins on board. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:58, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- Weak Oppose - This is a well reasoned proposal, but I have to weakly oppose -- largely on principle. I don't think the solution to a shortage of admins is to move matters like this outside the domain of admin duties. To me, it would be ideal if there were enough admins to close all XfDs (i.e. get rid of non-admin closes altogether). RfA functions (to the extent it functions) to ensure anyone placed in the role has been well vetted and demonstrates competence and general alignment with the community. An improperly executed XfD close is just too painful to remedy to let anyone do so. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 18:16, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose: If an user was knowledgeable and trusted enough to delete any page, even with admin review, then he/she probably could pass RfA. Also, it's another dream of editors lusting for the mop. Esquivalience t 01:49, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if that's true, Esquivalience. I have many successful CSD nominations, which require admin review, so from that perspective, I should be "trusted" to delete a page. Yet, I doubt that I would pass an RfA now or any time in the immediate/near future. --Biblioworm 00:38, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support, strongly. We need to devolve the tools, because we're not getting more admins. Protonk (talk) 02:09, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support many non-admins have the judgement ability to close TfD's, quite often there are three delete votes and nothing else at a tfd, yet it sits for weeks waiting for an admin. Yes RfA is nice but we have all seen how difficult that place is. EoRdE6(Come Talk to Me!) 14:17, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose. People who want to close deletion discussions need access to the deletion tools, because otherwise the one who actually presses the delete button is the admin responsible for the deletion. Sandstein 06:44, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- And why does the closer at TfD need access to deletion tools? Indeed the one pressing the button is responsible for the deletion, but checking an uncontroversial close takes moments; what more does an admin need to assure themselves that they can safely delete, especially if they recognise the non-admin closer as capable? Doing it your way requires the admin to close the discussion and then spend possibly considerable time in orphaning the template. No wonder there's a backlog. Have you ever closed a TfD? --RexxS (talk) 23:47, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose - The user who closes the discussion should be able to handle the deletion; the closing admin should close the discussion, then list it for orphanning if (s)he is unwilling/unable to handle that. If we allow NACs as delete, then some admin will need to show up and deal with it - and itnwould be his/her own responsibility if the deletion is wrong. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 12:40, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
- And why should admins be absolved of their responsibility? The reason we're proposing to let non-admins close delete TfDs is because there's only one admin who's a regular. Do you have any other suggestions? And if the answer is RfA, you're gonna have to excuse me if I respond less than kindly. Alakzi (talk) 13:25, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose who decides who are well-trusted non-admins? Heck there are some admins whom I don't trust with the mop, yet they are able to block, delete, etc. At least those who hold the mop have gone through a screening and !vote. If anything mop holders should have to go up to periodic re-approval of holding the mop (say every three years).--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 23:32, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support - experienced non-admins are allowed to close deletion discussions at Articles for deletion and I don't see why TfD should be any different. —МандичкаYO 😜 10:13, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support: Preventing capable non-admins from closing an uncontroversial TfD discussion as "delete" (followed by orphaning the template and leaving it in the holding cell) is simply bureaucracy for its own sake. It helps nothing. Any non-admin who showed themselves able to do that job would soon be recognised as capable by the few admins left who attempt to work on this backlog - and that would speed up the process. That in itself might encourage someone to stand for RfA who otherwise wouldn't want to be subject to such an unpleasant experience. But insisting that that broken process must be a pre-requisite for the ability to do such a simple task smacks of the view that adminship is an exclusive "club" that us mere peons aren't worthy of joining. --RexxS (talk) 23:36, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support — 3 people posted below that they'd start closing discussions as delete if they were allowed. That seems like at would (at least) double the users closing TfDs where the outcome is delete. If most admins don't go near TfD, a helping hand by some non-admins seems like it would help the backlog. The time it would take an admin to check the outcome of the discussion is trivial and as long as they did take a few seconds to check the discussion, there can't be much harm caused. — Bilorv(talk)(c)(e) 08:05, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose. Non admins can and should help with the backlog on Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion#Completed_discussions. There are lots of work to be done there. Closing uncontroversial delete discussions does not help much, if they do are uncontroversial admins will not take long to access that either. (I'm on low activity nowadays, but that is exactly one of the things I do once in a while). Also what is and how do I recognise a "trusted experienced editor"? - Nabla (talk) 11:23, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose per Nabla and GiantSnowman. Non-admins can help with the backlog there, and if they are "trusted" enough, they should be able to stand for an RFA. Also opposing per WP:BADNAC, which lays out why non-admins shouldn't close discussions as "delete" to begin with. -- Tavix (talk) 13:49, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Tavix: Non-admins can help with the backlog there ... That's just a misdirection. ... if they are "trusted" enough, they should be able to stand for an RFA. Am I trusted to close TfDs? I've closed well over fifty with nigh no complaints. Would I stand a chance at RfA? No, and neither am I willing to go through the ordeal. But you won't accept my help, because? Closing uncontroversial delete discussions does not help much, if they do are uncontroversial admins will not take long to access that either. How long admins take to close a discussion is only part of the issue. This has been explained at quite some length previously. Alakzi (talk) 14:15, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
- Non-admins can help out at Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion#Completed_discussions. That's a fact. There are several templates in that list that needs to be merged and non-admins can definitely do that. As for your other statement, that's not a problem with TFD, but with RFA. If you go to RFA and say that you'd want to help out at TFD, given your track record, I think you'd pass. You've got enough experience with templates and 17,826 edits is impressive. I'd even nominate you because I know how bad it's needed and because you've helped me out a couple of other times. -- Tavix (talk) 14:36, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
- It is a fact. It's also not what's under discussion. Delete closures are not kept in the holding cell for very long, usually. As for your other statement, that's not a problem with TFD, but with RFA. People have been harping on about how RfA is broken for eons, it seems. I might've missed it, but I don't think anything's been done to remedy the situation. If you go to RFA ... I don't share your optimism, but thank you for your vote of confidence. Alakzi (talk) 15:17, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
- Non-admins can help out at Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion#Completed_discussions. That's a fact. There are several templates in that list that needs to be merged and non-admins can definitely do that. As for your other statement, that's not a problem with TFD, but with RFA. If you go to RFA and say that you'd want to help out at TFD, given your track record, I think you'd pass. You've got enough experience with templates and 17,826 edits is impressive. I'd even nominate you because I know how bad it's needed and because you've helped me out a couple of other times. -- Tavix (talk) 14:36, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Tavix: Non-admins can help with the backlog there ... That's just a misdirection. ... if they are "trusted" enough, they should be able to stand for an RFA. Am I trusted to close TfDs? I've closed well over fifty with nigh no complaints. Would I stand a chance at RfA? No, and neither am I willing to go through the ordeal. But you won't accept my help, because? Closing uncontroversial delete discussions does not help much, if they do are uncontroversial admins will not take long to access that either. How long admins take to close a discussion is only part of the issue. This has been explained at quite some length previously. Alakzi (talk) 14:15, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support. People advocating RfA as a solution are living in fairy land. For me there are two questions that need answering: is there a serious backlog at TfD?; and if so, would allowing trusted non-admins to close uncontroversial TfDs as delete help alleviate that backlog? The answer to both questions seems clearly to be yes. Jenks24 (talk) 14:27, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose "trusted non admins" should be made admins, and while RFA has far too few candidates, those who do run are often getting over 95% support. If we are going to have another unbundling I'd much prefer that we unbundled "block IP and BLock newbie " rather than the delete button. ϢereSpielChequers 09:58, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- You're probably confusing "trusted non admins" with "those willing to go through the unpleasantness of an RfA". You've perhaps also missed the point that this proposal does not suggest allowing non-admins the ability to delete a template - any more than allowing non-admins to nominate for CSD allows them to delete an article. --RexxS (talk) 18:20, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- I had a similar reaction to this comment. "Unbundling" is a technical modification; this proposal is about modifying the procedural structure of the TfD process to better match the existing technical capabilities of the participants. Currently, artificial backlogs are created waiting for someone to perform a social role ("closing a discussion"), not a technical action ("clicking the delete button"). This is a distinction without a difference at AfD where the two actions almost always occur in tandem, but at TfD they're often decoupled. We have broad general agreement that admins are experienced editors with extra buttons, not people with privileged social status. Treating this differently than a CSD or a prod does not seem compatible with that view.
- More concretely, it's also not healthy for any process to have such unpredictable and discontinuous throughput. Building up huge backlogs for a small handful of people to muck out in big batches every so often is inefficient and frankly more likely to lead to errors than allowing more NACs. Opabinia regalis (talk) 18:49, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose - Per GiantSnowman. What makes an editor "trusted"? Administrators are administrators because they have the confidence of the community and have shown that they can make these kinds of calls. More importantly, admins have access to the deletion tools, and non-administrators do not. Non-admins often have a hard time with what an "uncontroversial delete outcome" even is, so I'm not comfortable with what is being suggested. - Aoidh (talk) 00:53, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose - IMHO if you want to close TFDs as delete
(and then physically delete them)you should become an admin,I'm also a bit concerned with non-admins deleting a template assuming it's not controversial when it is controversial.–Davey2010Talk 14:47, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose, if the page is going to be deleted it will require an administrator anyways. This does not save much time and introduces a lot of bureaucracy and potential for drama (who is an "experienced non-administrator" and who gets to decide?). Antrocent (♫♬) 22:03, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support The only reason that non-admins can't close other discussions as delete is because they can't implement the outcome. Since implementing a delete result at TfD just means putting it in the holding cell, non-admins can implement them, so they should be able to close them as such. Jackmcbarn (talk) 20:11, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
- oppose, the solution is to have more admins closing discussions, not to let random/unvetted editors close the discussions. Frietjes (talk) 15:38, 4 July 2015 (UTC)
- Support, but can always be rolled back later, if necessary, by the community. — Cirt (talk) 02:46, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose, per Nakon and Chris Troutman. Slippery slope. BMK (talk) 21:52, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Discussion
- A comment on WP:NACD that leaves me undecided in this discussion: many TFDs, due to lack of participation (say, 1 or 2 users), do not have an obvious consensus. WP:NACD is silent on what to do in this situation, as the two users may have agreed on what to do with the template (e.g. delete the template) and so the "close calls and controversial decisions -> do not close" criterion is satisfied... Thoughts are welcome. (This specific question and this general discussion may be a good discussion to invite watchers of WT:Deletion process to participate in.) --Izno (talk) 19:15, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks for posting over there as well. As stated in the TfD closing instructions: "There is no quorum. If, after the normal time period, there are no objections to deletion of a template, it can simply be deleted." Many TfD discussions see lower participation than AfD, as you'd expect, and in my experience low-participation TfDs are typically uncontroversial. Opabinia regalis (talk) 19:45, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- OTOH, I've seen a number of low-participation (even with seeming-consensus) TFDs be relisted by at least a few users (not sure if they're admins off the top of my head). The interesting phrase is the statement post-your quotation: "However, if after seven days there is no consensus or little participation the closing administrator may, at their discretion, choose to relist the discussion." I'm not sure if it's presently in the scope of this proposal, but it seems to me that it would be better for non-admins to re-list a low participation TFD (obviously they aren't touching a nocon TFD) than to be permitted to remove the template in its various uses and send it to the admin holding cell. --Izno (talk) 21:30, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- As a matter of practice, non-admins do relist discussions. But repeated relisting after a general lack of interest is evident doesn't help the backlog problem and is a distraction. It's an attention-conservation issue. The process should funnel the efforts of the limited number of participants into the tasks where they can be most productive.
- I don't think it's necessary, but I wouldn't object to an expectation that NAC delete closures should have been relisted at least once. Opabinia regalis (talk) 23:16, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- OTOH, I've seen a number of low-participation (even with seeming-consensus) TFDs be relisted by at least a few users (not sure if they're admins off the top of my head). The interesting phrase is the statement post-your quotation: "However, if after seven days there is no consensus or little participation the closing administrator may, at their discretion, choose to relist the discussion." I'm not sure if it's presently in the scope of this proposal, but it seems to me that it would be better for non-admins to re-list a low participation TFD (obviously they aren't touching a nocon TFD) than to be permitted to remove the template in its various uses and send it to the admin holding cell. --Izno (talk) 21:30, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks for posting over there as well. As stated in the TfD closing instructions: "There is no quorum. If, after the normal time period, there are no objections to deletion of a template, it can simply be deleted." Many TfD discussions see lower participation than AfD, as you'd expect, and in my experience low-participation TfDs are typically uncontroversial. Opabinia regalis (talk) 19:45, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- Comment from proposer: I posted this discussion as an admin who has closed TfDs recently. I can confirm that this would not cause displaced backlogs and burdensome duplication of effort. I wouldn't make a proposal to give me more work ;)
At AfD, evaluating and enacting an uncontroversial delete outcome both take seconds, so splitting those two actions makes no sense. At TfD, orphaning the template may require significantly more effort. Currently, throughput at this step is limited not by carrying out the orphaning, but by the relatively simple task of closing the discussions. This proposal parallelizes the slowest step of the process at the trivial cost of doing a quick, simple task twice. I do exactly that all the time as a programmer. Opabinia regalis (talk) 19:45, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- Question: to those who have voted "oppose", would it be better to allow just template editors rather than everyone to close TfDs as "delete" where the result is clear? Jc86035 (talk • contribs) Use {{re|Jc86035}} to reply to me 13:37, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
-
- It would certainly be better, but unless they have the ability to actually perform the action, I would still oppose (albeit less vigorously as one of my two major issues would be resolved) Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 14:56, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
-
- And yet your other objection is that having a non-admin closure at TfD needs an admin to check before deletion - and that's bureaucratic duplication, right? Let me ask you, do you object to CSD for the same reason? In CSD a non-admin assesses that an article should be deleted and without further discussion an admin will check it and then delete the article. Isn't that a duplication of effort? Why do you think we permit non-admins to mark an article for CSD? Would you support requiring only admins to make the CSD judgement because they are the only ones who can perform the deletion? We'd soon be up to our armpits in crap articles if we took that line. If the size of the task at TfD matched that at CSD, we soon have those opposing here screaming out to let non-admins share the workload. --RexxS (talk) 00:03, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
- Well that could be an interesting proposal. Allowing templateeditiors to delete pages in the Template: namespace... I think that would be a good idea, many admins don't actually know all that much about templates, but Template editors have a demonstrated ability to judge and work with templates. But that is probably a topic for a different RfC in a different place. EoRdE6(Come Talk to Me!) 14:44, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
- Agreed that this is an interesting idea, but better discussed elsewhere. The current proposal is intended to refocus the "social" part of the process to better facilitate what can be done with existing technical tools, while this alternative would make a technical change to facilitate essentially the same social process. Opabinia regalis (talk) 17:24, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Comment there's a couple of different threads in the above arguments that I want to try disentangling. There are two common themes:
-
- Non-admins shouldn't close anything as delete because there's too much risk of an error.
- Non-admins shouldn't close anything as delete because it's a waste of time for an admin to review the decision.
- In truly uncontroversial cases, of course, there is no time wasted, because it takes a trivial amount of time to determine that the closer's judgment was valid. In the rare circumstance of an error, surely the second argument obviates the first? Either the admin catches the error or takes responsibility for it - same as any other process. Opabinia regalis (talk) 17:24, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Question: would this actually help the problem? Are there non-admins who would be willing to close discussions and orphan these templates (presumably regular TfD contributors)? I know it's a crap way of conducting a poll, but if there are any editors who are reading this comment and would start closing TfDs if the proposal went ahead, please can you just post below. — Bilorv(talk)(c)(e) 16:42, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yes. Alakzi (talk) 16:56, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yes. And I'm willing to stipulate that I will be working with admins Opabinia regalis and NorthAmerica1000. The object is to clear the non-controversial backlog and free up admin time to focus on the hard cases. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:25, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
- Yes. --RexxS (talk) 00:05, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Alternative Proposal: Allow Orphan as a close result
What if instead of allowing outright delete NAC closes, we instead permitted NAC Orphan closes; and then created a speedy criteria for: "Template that has been Orphaned and has had no transclusions for 4 days. (Does not apply to templates that are intended to be substituted)" By going this route, first, we would minimize duplication of effort, as the admin would only need to verify the template hasn't been transcluded for 4 days. Second, there would be ample time for anyone to object, even assuming the orphaning happened immediately, there would be 4 days (chosen because that is what we use for CSD:C1) to object, challenge the close, and seek some initial review. Third, it would create a structure where the NAC close is something the closer can fully perform, the big part of the process, which is orphaning, and would then shift the remaining bit of actually deleting the template to a simple and quick thing for admins to do. Monty845 14:45, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support Would also work, and would have the additional benefit of massively cleaning up the Template namespace instead of having thousands of unused templates lying around. Jc86035 (talk • contribs) Use {{re|Jc86035}} to reply to me 13:18, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support this alternative workflow formulation as well. Opabinia regalis (talk) 17:27, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support. Whatever works, I guess. Alakzi (talk) 17:36, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support per Monty's rationale. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:27, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose. This is the same as the previous suggestion, with *more* bureucracy. - Nabla (talk) 11:26, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support, this is the way to go about this. I love the idea of a template CSD that mirrors C1 as that would go a long way to clean up the template namespace without clogging up TFD with so many uncontroversial nominations. It also is a good way to take care of the WP:BADNAC problem from above. -- Tavix (talk) 14:46, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support, as long as templates in user space are excluded. (I assume there is a way to tell the difference between a template which has been orphaned 10 minutes ago and one that's been orphaned 4 days ago.) — Bilorv(talk)(c)(e) 19:56, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
- Support - since this is the process for deleting a template anyway, it might as well simply be understood that "delete" for a template means "orphan and place in holding". Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 16:41, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
- And that is why this is the same proposal as above with a different name. Interesting (mostly off topic) fact about the power of words - "delete and orphan" vs. "orphan and delete" - is that one version gets a majority of opposes and the other a large majority of supports. Human mind is fascinating :-) - Nabla (talk) 18:06, 11 July 2015 (UTC)