|
Welcome to the reliable sources noticeboard. This page is for posting questions regarding whether particular sources are reliable in context. | ||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
||||||
While we attempt to offer a second opinion, and the consensus of several editors can generally be relied upon, answers are not official policy. | ||||||
Please focus your attention on the reliability of a source. This is not the place to discuss other issues, such as editor conduct. Please see dispute resolution for issues other than reliability. | ||||||
If you are looking for a copy of a specific source, please ask at the resource exchange board. | ||||||
|
Sections older than 5 days archived by MiszaBot II. (For help, see Wikipedia:Purge) |
Search this noticeboard & archives |
11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200 201, 202, 203, 204 |
Contents
- 1 Daily Mail again
- 2 Franz Kurowski for a GA article (WWII)
- 3 Scientific Research Publishing
- 4 Other predatory journals
- 5 Past Life Regression Article
- 6 catalogue of open source software confer notability
- 7 itv.com
- 8 Two sources needing feedback
- 9 Jaime Alguersuari
- 10 Library of Congress
- 11 Mr. Freeze
- 12 The nature of Nippon.com
- 13 Sources at NamePros
- 14 The Coast
- 15 Source does not include Mike Singletary
- 16 Sources written in the future tense cited for past claims
- 17 James Sears circulation claims
- 18 Award recomendation quoted in memoirs
- 19 Journal of the American Nutraceutical Association
- 20 Mirror.co.uk
Daily Mail again
Is the Daily Mail a suitable source for this addition to John Noakes? The detail is reputed to be a quote from Peter Purves. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:58, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
- It is neither a contentious claim nor one remotely of "celebrity gossip", and the claim is sourced to a specific person. Fairly reliable in such a case. Not on the order of "person had sex with unicorns" or the like, and pretty much a "vanilla claim". Cheers. Collect (talk) 19:06, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
- Lightweight claim and the source supports it directly. I concur that this is acceptable. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:10, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
- As far as I know, Noakes doesn't even like unicorns. So many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:31, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
- I don't see a problem with the source or how it is used, but the wording of the sentence should be changed. In the context of our article it looks like, if not outright claims that, Purves reported that Noakes "had refused to speak with Baxter" (my emphasis) over some extended period of time, whereas the source is actually talking about a very specific event (the 50th anniversary at Buckingham Palace) at which Purves and Baxter were civil to each other but Noakes refused to talk to Baxter. It may indeed be accurate to infer that Noakes had refused to speak to Baxter over an extended period of time, but inferring is not allowed in Wikipedia articles. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:30, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, good point. I'd probably prefer, at this stage, to avoid seeing "remove wanker comments" in an edit summary again. But I may try and adjust it. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:16, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
- Every time the Daily Mail comes up as an RS question, there is a confusion between distaste for the style, content and ideology of the paper and its validity as a source. It is an RS.Martinlc (talk) 11:38, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you. Best we tell User:Hillbillyholiday. Personally I love chips. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:44, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
- It may surprise y'all to learn that I have recently undergone something of a Damascene conversion on this subject and no longer regard those at the Mail as a gaggle of rebarbative maledicent misoneists given to plumeopicean stultiloquence and vilipensive honeyfuggling. I take it all back, it's clearly a trustworthy publication. Please, use it freely with my blessing. --Hillbillyholiday talk 12:42, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
- Ah great. Thanks for telling me. I'll get in some bread and dripping to go with the chips. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:06, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
- No worries, Mister EotW. Please excuse my latest Mail-related meltdown. --Hillbillyholiday talk 07:20, 28 February 2016 (UTC) ..and do go easy on the chips
- Taking that story as an example, yes it's completely trivial. But it was a real event that has been reported and checked, subject to the IPSOS code of conduct, quoting real people, with editorial oversight. If there were a wikipedia page for images of faces seen in food this article would be usable as an RS. You seem to be confusing the desirability that the Mail didn't exist with the technical question of whether the stories it recounts carry greater weight as sources than random individuals on the internet.Martinlc (talk) 10:19, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
- Is WP:RS black and white? Or is there some kind of hierarchy for the UK press? I tend to use the Daily Mail as a last resort, although it's photographs are often excellent. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:31, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
- Taking that story as an example, yes it's completely trivial. But it was a real event that has been reported and checked, subject to the IPSOS code of conduct, quoting real people, with editorial oversight. If there were a wikipedia page for images of faces seen in food this article would be usable as an RS. You seem to be confusing the desirability that the Mail didn't exist with the technical question of whether the stories it recounts carry greater weight as sources than random individuals on the internet.Martinlc (talk) 10:19, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
- No worries, Mister EotW. Please excuse my latest Mail-related meltdown. --Hillbillyholiday talk 07:20, 28 February 2016 (UTC) ..and do go easy on the chips
- Ah great. Thanks for telling me. I'll get in some bread and dripping to go with the chips. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:06, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
- It may surprise y'all to learn that I have recently undergone something of a Damascene conversion on this subject and no longer regard those at the Mail as a gaggle of rebarbative maledicent misoneists given to plumeopicean stultiloquence and vilipensive honeyfuggling. I take it all back, it's clearly a trustworthy publication. Please, use it freely with my blessing. --Hillbillyholiday talk 12:42, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you. Best we tell User:Hillbillyholiday. Personally I love chips. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:44, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
- Every time the Daily Mail comes up as an RS question, there is a confusion between distaste for the style, content and ideology of the paper and its validity as a source. It is an RS.Martinlc (talk) 11:38, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, good point. I'd probably prefer, at this stage, to avoid seeing "remove wanker comments" in an edit summary again. But I may try and adjust it. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:16, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
- I don't see a problem with the source or how it is used, but the wording of the sentence should be changed. In the context of our article it looks like, if not outright claims that, Purves reported that Noakes "had refused to speak with Baxter" (my emphasis) over some extended period of time, whereas the source is actually talking about a very specific event (the 50th anniversary at Buckingham Palace) at which Purves and Baxter were civil to each other but Noakes refused to talk to Baxter. It may indeed be accurate to infer that Noakes had refused to speak to Baxter over an extended period of time, but inferring is not allowed in Wikipedia articles. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:30, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
- As far as I know, Noakes doesn't even like unicorns. So many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:31, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
- Lightweight claim and the source supports it directly. I concur that this is acceptable. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:10, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
I'm late to the party, but I note the source supplied at the top of the thread includes the phrase "Peter Purves dishes Blue Peter dirt" in it's title - that's a "no" from me. John Noakes clearly loved Shep (that's obvious from anyone who's ever owned a pet) and doesn't like Biddy Baxter, we don't need the specifics. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:09, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
- ""Headlines" are not "articles." The headline is written by a headline writer - and very rarely by the article writer at all. They are designed to get people to read - not to be n accurate precis of the article. Thus, I suggest, and have suggested, that "headlines" are not, in themselves, reliable sources other than for the fact the headline existed. Collect (talk) 13:52, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
- Some questions for Collect. Obviously all sources need to be judged for accuracy, reliability, etc. -- sometimes good sources can get it wrong, sometimes poor sources get it right, and yes, standards are dropping across the board -- but does WP accept, say, the National Enquirer or RT as a source? Would you agree that there's some kind of cut-off point: that when a source has been caught falsifying stories time and again, it simply shouldn't be accepted as reliable anymore? Isn't it, in part, the function of this board to determine when the line has been crossed? Wouldn't you agree that the Mail has indeed crossed the line? Wouldn't banning the Mail for BLPs be a net-positive? Wouldn't it stop these interminable arguments? Have you read this? --Hillbillyholiday talk 17:58, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
- All of those are valid questions. See also rule #21. MastCell Talk 18:02, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
- Actually, RT is a valid reliable source for some items (see prior discussions thereon) - specifically such material official statements from those quoted as Russian officials. The Daily Mail is not a good source for contentious material in the "celebrity gossip" area, but neither are any newspapers good sources in that area. The claim that the source has routinely falsified stories is erroneous here - once one removes the "celebrity gossip" retractions, the DM has pretty much the same record as other popular newspapers (yes - I checked the formal records - and even The Guardian has been caught with their pants down). In short - the Mail has not "crossed the line" although some here seem to think anything other than "correct opinions" should be debarred. And if we start saying "some newspapers are more equal than others" we should recall the fact that a very large number of stories in all newspapers originate in press releases. [1] provides the sourcing for my claims. Collect (talk) 19:26, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
- But of course some newspapers (and some sources) are better than others. The process of evaluating sources, and choosing the best ones, is called editing. Wikipedians who perform this function are called editors. The Daily Mail is not uniquely bad, but it is emblematic of a particular type of low-quality yellow journalism that editors with good judgement typically avoid. As I alluded to above, when Wikipedians take to these noticeboards to defend the Daily Mail, it says a lot about their understanding of our sourcing policies. MastCell Talk 22:15, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
- Even the "best" newspapers routinely use press releases, and not even The Guardian is immune to the "celebrity gossip" illness. And you are welcome to diss those who find the Daily Mail covers some topics better than The Times does, but I find your tone here to be disputatious for the sake of being disputatious. Is there a reason you wish to call into question the motives of those who use the Daily Mail? The big problem with all popular sources is the handling of "celebrity gossip" and I suggest that all "celebrity gossip" is the problem. Can you name a source you find to be very reliable for "celebrity gossip" for contentious claims? Collect (talk) 23:15, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
- I don't question the motives of editors who defend the Daily Mail as a source. I question their judgement.
It's not about "celebrity gossip". The Mail has a justifiably atrocious reputation for its scientific and medical coverage; its coverage of international affairs is sensationalist and often completely false; it fabricates human-interest stories and legal coverage (including fake quotes), and so on. Again, it's not the only terrible, tabloidy source out there, but it's emblematic. When you, as an experienced editor, defend this kind of thing, you discredit yourself, you set a bad example, and you call your judgement into question. MastCell Talk 00:52, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- "Celebrity gossip" is indeed the problem -- the victim of false gossip has no protections in the US under two prongs of tort practice. In the first place, the victim is a "public figure" and we hold public figures to be open season 12 months of the year; and in the second, periodicals ("news sources") are have court licenses almost equivalent to 007. In consequence, NOTHING said about a public figure in the popular press is reliable. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 01:08, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- I don't question the motives of editors who defend the Daily Mail as a source. I question their judgement.
- Even the "best" newspapers routinely use press releases, and not even The Guardian is immune to the "celebrity gossip" illness. And you are welcome to diss those who find the Daily Mail covers some topics better than The Times does, but I find your tone here to be disputatious for the sake of being disputatious. Is there a reason you wish to call into question the motives of those who use the Daily Mail? The big problem with all popular sources is the handling of "celebrity gossip" and I suggest that all "celebrity gossip" is the problem. Can you name a source you find to be very reliable for "celebrity gossip" for contentious claims? Collect (talk) 23:15, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
- But of course some newspapers (and some sources) are better than others. The process of evaluating sources, and choosing the best ones, is called editing. Wikipedians who perform this function are called editors. The Daily Mail is not uniquely bad, but it is emblematic of a particular type of low-quality yellow journalism that editors with good judgement typically avoid. As I alluded to above, when Wikipedians take to these noticeboards to defend the Daily Mail, it says a lot about their understanding of our sourcing policies. MastCell Talk 22:15, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
- Some questions for Collect. Obviously all sources need to be judged for accuracy, reliability, etc. -- sometimes good sources can get it wrong, sometimes poor sources get it right, and yes, standards are dropping across the board -- but does WP accept, say, the National Enquirer or RT as a source? Would you agree that there's some kind of cut-off point: that when a source has been caught falsifying stories time and again, it simply shouldn't be accepted as reliable anymore? Isn't it, in part, the function of this board to determine when the line has been crossed? Wouldn't you agree that the Mail has indeed crossed the line? Wouldn't banning the Mail for BLPs be a net-positive? Wouldn't it stop these interminable arguments? Have you read this? --Hillbillyholiday talk 17:58, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
No, the Daily Mail is not a good source for that material. That newspaper cannot be trusted in this context. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 09:53, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- Please read the relevant policy WP:NEWSORG. News organisations we don't like are still WP:RS. Are you doubting that the interview took place? That the journalist didn't record the works?Martinlc (talk) 09:59, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- and also see WP:VERIFIABILITY not truth. The Mail has published these comments. If there is a policy debate it's around WP:UNDUE.Martinlc (talk) 10:01, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- This isn't the place for discussions of UNDUE. And it's been quite a while since I've seen someone say "verifiability not truth"... I repeat that the Daily Mail is not sufficiently trustworthy for this sort of thing. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 10:23, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- I agree- UNDUE is a content dispute that should be resolved on the page. But I don't see why you see this source as untrustworthy. Are you implying that the paper din't speak to the person, or that they didn't say what was reported? I mentioned TRUTH because it appears that editors are taking the line that because they don't believe material as reported it must be false.Martinlc (talk) 10:46, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- Because they have a long and sordid history of getting things wrong. I don't have a view about the "truth" of this particular episode, but I'm skeptical enough about the source in general that I think in general we shouldn't use it. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 11:28, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- If you don't have a negative view of the truth of this episode as reported then you would have to accept that it is an appropriate source for the edit. Like it or not the Mail is a mainstream newspaper with a corrections column and membership of IPSOS.Martinlc (talk) 14:41, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- I don't have to accept anything of the sort. And in fact I don't. I'd advise not telling people what sort of input they "have to" contribute to a noticeboard. As before: the Daily Mail is not a good source for this material. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:43, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- What I meant was that since you have 'no view' either way on the accuracy of this specific story then it seemed that there no grounds to object to it, apart from a general view that the Mail should automatically be ruled out as an RS. Such a position would not be in accord with RS policy as I understand it where each case is decided on its own merits.Martinlc (talk) 23:20, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- This is rather in contrast to what is happening in science editing at the moment. Some editors are deleting sources on the sole basis of them being published in predatory journals. There is no attempt to discuss or consider them on a case-by-case basis. DrChrissy (talk) 23:31, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- What I meant was that since you have 'no view' either way on the accuracy of this specific story then it seemed that there no grounds to object to it, apart from a general view that the Mail should automatically be ruled out as an RS. Such a position would not be in accord with RS policy as I understand it where each case is decided on its own merits.Martinlc (talk) 23:20, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- I don't have to accept anything of the sort. And in fact I don't. I'd advise not telling people what sort of input they "have to" contribute to a noticeboard. As before: the Daily Mail is not a good source for this material. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:43, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- If you don't have a negative view of the truth of this episode as reported then you would have to accept that it is an appropriate source for the edit. Like it or not the Mail is a mainstream newspaper with a corrections column and membership of IPSOS.Martinlc (talk) 14:41, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- Because they have a long and sordid history of getting things wrong. I don't have a view about the "truth" of this particular episode, but I'm skeptical enough about the source in general that I think in general we shouldn't use it. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 11:28, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- I agree- UNDUE is a content dispute that should be resolved on the page. But I don't see why you see this source as untrustworthy. Are you implying that the paper din't speak to the person, or that they didn't say what was reported? I mentioned TRUTH because it appears that editors are taking the line that because they don't believe material as reported it must be false.Martinlc (talk) 10:46, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- This isn't the place for discussions of UNDUE. And it's been quite a while since I've seen someone say "verifiability not truth"... I repeat that the Daily Mail is not sufficiently trustworthy for this sort of thing. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 10:23, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- and also see WP:VERIFIABILITY not truth. The Mail has published these comments. If there is a policy debate it's around WP:UNDUE.Martinlc (talk) 10:01, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- Going right back to the OP, wouldn't a way around this be to make a direct attribution in the text (indicated in bold) so the sentence reads "with the Daily Mail reporting that co-presenter Peter Purves later said that Noakes refused to speak with Baxter. DrChrissy (talk) 20:38, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- Many thanks. I had considered that, but took the advice of User:Hijiri88 to limit it to the single event. I also considered avoiding any paraphrasing at all, by using direct quote marks, but then thought the Daily Mail wasn't really worth that kind of care. I also thought it was a bit unfair on Noakes, using "hearsay" to put words in his mouth like that (or rather, take them away!) This whole discussion has been very enlightening. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:58, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Franz Kurowski for a GA article (WWII)
Source: Kurowski, Franz (2007). Oberleutnant Otto Kittel—Der erfolgreichste Jagdflieger des Jagdgeschwaders 54 [First Lieutenant Otto Kittel—The most successful Fighter Pilot of Fighter Wing 54] (in German). Würzburg, Germany: Flechsig Verlag. ISBN 978-3-88189-733-4.
Article: Otto Kittel
Content: Two types of content (the article is largely cited to Kurowski):
(1) non-notable details and potentially unverifiable statements, such as:
- Bf 109 suffered damage and Kittel returned to base, resisting the urge to chase more and risk his life. His motto was to get back in one piece and avoid risks: "Take the safe route and avoid ill-considered and wild offensive tactics".
- Kittel was frustrated. The ground crews kept up his spirits
- JG 54 Geschwaderkommodore (Wing Commander) Hannes Trautloft congratulated Kittel and said the following: "..."
- Many more
(2) Military statistics:
- On 3 May 1943, Kittel resumed his combat career with three victories.
- Kittel had achieved a one kill per day average to reach 94 victories on 4
- Witnesses from Kittel's formation reported that a Shturmovik had been shot down by Kittel before he himself was killed during the air battle having scored his 267th and final victory. Etc.
More info on the author:
According to the historian Ronald Smelser and Edward J. Davis, Kurowski is a "guru". Gurus, in their definition, are "authors popular among the readers who romanticize the German army". In addition, the gurus are:
“authors, (who) have picked up and disseminated the myths of the Wehrmacht in a wide variety of popular publications that romanticize the German struggle in Russia….. who insist on authenticity in their writings, combine a painfully accurate knowledge of the details of the Wehrmacht, ranging from vehicles to uniforms to medals, with a romantic heroicization of the German army fighting to save Europe from a rapacious Communism. There is little in the way of historical context in the writings of these men.”
Franz Kurowski, a veteran of the Eastern front, saw his two major works released in the U.S. in 1992 (Panzer Aces) and 1994 (Infantry Aces). Smelser & Davis write: "Kurowski gives the readers an almost heroic version of the German soldier, guiltless of any war crimes, actually incapable of such behavior... Sacrifice and humility are his hallmarks. Their actions win them medals, badges and promotions, yet they remain indifferent to these awards."
Kurowski's accounts are "laudatory texts that cast the German soldier in an extraordinarily favorable light", Smelser and Davies conclude.[1]
References
- ^ * Smelser, Ronald; Davies, Edward J. (2008). The myth of the Eastern Front: The Nazi-Soviet War in American Popular Culture. New York: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-83365-3., pp=5, 173–178, 251
If you are curious about the book I'm citing, here are two reviews: Tracing the Resurrection of a Reputation: How Americans Came to Love the German Army by a professional historian ("The book is a fascinating immersion into a simple but important question: How did the German soldiers who fought on the eastern front during World War Two become hero figures to so many Americans?"), and another one, surprisingly nuanced, from feldgrau.net, one of outlets for "romancers" that Smelser and Davies critique. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:52, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
- It sounds as though it's not exactly history, that it's historical narrative, like Little House on the Prairie. Is the publisher, Flechsig Verlag, reputable? Is it a vanity press? Darkfrog24 (talk) 05:08, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
- Here other titles published by "Würzburg : Flechsig"
- To the gate of hell: the memoir of a panzer crewman by Arnim Böttger; Geoffrey Brooks; Charles Messenger (In English)
- Duel under the stars: factual report by a German night fighter, 1941 - 1945 by Wilhelm Johnen
- Panzer Regiment 11 Panzer Division 65 and Panzerersatz- and Training Division 11. Part 2 , as firefighters at the focal points of the Eastern Front - from October 1941 to May 1944 by Michael Schadewitz
- K.e.coffman (talk) 05:38, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
- That only shows that they specialize in certain subject matter. A vanity press is a publishing company in which the authors decide what will go into print rather than going through a professional selection process.
- But let's say it is a regular, third-party publisher. The issue here seems to be whether this book is really nonfiction. Darkfrog24 (talk) 06:32, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
- This may help -- Kurowski has a German Wikipedia article. I had it google translated and, while it's somewhat difficult to read, statements like "historical revisionist tendencies", "right-wing publisher", "far-right", "journalism of gray and brown zone"; "inspired by British Holocaust denier David Irving", etc, appear prominently. ''The Myth of the Eastern Front" is also mentioned. The article is well sourced to various historians. K.e.coffman (talk) 06:38, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
- Here other titles published by "Würzburg : Flechsig"
- I agree that this isn't a reliable source. Smelser & Davis' analysis of Kurowski's works is convincing (I've read the book). Moreover, I can't remember ever seeing him used as a reference in high quality books on the war, despite being very prolific, and the English-language editions of his books seem to have mainly been published by firms which provide little if any editing or fact-checking of works. Nick-D (talk) 07:27, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
While the source The myth of the Eastern Front reminds us that we need to be cautious, I think to reject Kurowski completely as unreliable on the basis of that source is a tad bit over-zealous, and frankly, lazy. Kurowski may well indeed be a "Romanciser" of the German military, that does not mean that he is completely unreliable, particularly in regard to factual operational matters and events.
To recap what was quoted above, the historian Ronald Smelser and Edward J. Davis, say Kurowski is a "guru". Gurus, in their definition, are "authors popular among the readers who romanticize the German army". In addition, the gurus are
- "authors, (who) have picked up and disseminated the myths of the Wehrmacht in a wide variety of popular publications that romanticize the German struggle in Russia….. who insist on authenticity in their writings, combine a painfully accurate knowledge of the details of the Wehrmacht, ranging from vehicles to uniforms to medals, with a romantic heroicization of the German army fighting to save Europe from a rapacious Communism. There is little in the way of historical context in the writings of these men.”
Lots of veterans have written books on WW2 topics, Brits, American, Russians, and no doubt there is a certain degree of romanticising by these authors too. However these historians do acknowledge that the "details of the Wehrmacht, ranging from vehicles to uniforms to medals" are "painfully accurate". We just need to assess each claim per WP:BIASED and leave out the bits that heroicize the '"German army fighting to save Europe from a rapacious Communism". --Nug (talk) 10:11, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
- Kurowski is an extremely prolific author, with over 400 books to his many pen names. He has written several series of children's books, and he has published a lot of his "popular history" (mostly on WW2 topics) with a number of known revisionists and extreme right-wing publishers. He's always writing to please his different audiences, not to give a factual history. It's not enough that there are some correct facts in the books to be considered RS, we need to be able to have reasonable trust in all factual statements. By that standard, Kurowski is not a reliable source. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:31, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
- WP:BIASED says we don't have to have "reasonable trust in all factual statements" of a source. It is not all or nothing. It depends upon the context. Historians Smelser and Davis acknowledge that authors like Kurowski have a "painfully accurate knowledge of the details of the Wehrmacht, ranging from vehicles to uniforms to medals". Is it really that difficult to identify and exclude Kurowski's "romantic heroicization of the German army fighting to save Europe from a rapacious Communism" while keeping those details of the Wehrmacht that have been acknowledged to be accurate? --Nug (talk) 19:14, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
- The problem is that you cannot know when that knowledge is used and when it falls victim to the story. WW2 is one the the periods in history with the broadest and deepest academic coverage. There is no reason to go to questionable second-rate sources. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:21, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
- That simply isn't the case with respect to the Eastern Front, it is precisely because that academic coverage isn't as broad and deep compared with the Western Front that authors like Kurowski are able to find a market to fill that gap. When it comes to broad outlines of who was involved and what equipment was used in which battles and where, I think it highly unlikely Kurowski would actually fabricate such things for sake of the "story". --Nug (talk) 20:29, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
- The problem is that you cannot know when that knowledge is used and when it falls victim to the story. WW2 is one the the periods in history with the broadest and deepest academic coverage. There is no reason to go to questionable second-rate sources. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:21, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
- WP:BIASED says we don't have to have "reasonable trust in all factual statements" of a source. It is not all or nothing. It depends upon the context. Historians Smelser and Davis acknowledge that authors like Kurowski have a "painfully accurate knowledge of the details of the Wehrmacht, ranging from vehicles to uniforms to medals". Is it really that difficult to identify and exclude Kurowski's "romantic heroicization of the German army fighting to save Europe from a rapacious Communism" while keeping those details of the Wehrmacht that have been acknowledged to be accurate? --Nug (talk) 19:14, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
Kurowski was criticized by other historians, see for example: "Military historian Jürgen Rohwer began a critical examination of the data published by Nazi Germany on successes (sunken tonnage) of submarine commanders in 1957. Afterwards, Kurowski belonged to the authors, who held on to the details of the Nazi propaganda regardless of the research results." (Please see source and exact citation on De Wikipedia article above). So his numbers of "victories" are not to be trusted.
On "authenticity" -- Smelser & Davies extend it only to "details of the Wehrmacht, ranging from vehicles to uniforms to medals". They do not extend this to operational history or actions of individual soldiers. He could be considered a reliable source on Wehrmacht uniforms or medals, but otherwise sounds like "militaria literature" to me, not a work by a historian. K.e.coffman (talk) 21:22, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
- Also from De.wikipedia: "In his 2001 book Bombs over Dresden Kurowski included a 16 pages long "eyewitness reports" of low-flying aircraft hunting civilians. In fact, that was a made-up account. Lars-Broder Keil and Sven Felix Kellerhoff criticized Kurowski in their book German legends. (Please see citation on De.wikipedia. K.e.coffman (talk) 21:32, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
-
- From the responses so far:
- Darkfrog24: "sounds like it's not exactly history, that it's historical narrative; Is this indeed non-fiction?" Is that a no?
- NIck-D: not WP:RS -- "can't remember ever seeing him used as a reference in high quality books on the war"
- Stephan Schulz: not WP:RS -- Kurowski writes "'popular history' (mostly on WW2 topics) with a number of known revisionists and extreme right-wing publisher"
- Nug: considers Kurowski to be a WP:BIASED source, but okay to use for "broad outlines of who was involved and what equipment was used in which battles and where", as potentially an only source available on the subject
- K.e.coffman: not WP:RS, as the original poster
- Question: does this constitute consensus that Kurowski is indeed a non WP:RS source for WWII articles, and I can take it to the article's Talk page? Or would I need more? K.e.coffman (talk) 15:01, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- RS can be like the Bechdel test; it's not always either-or. I'd say that while there maybe some case in which it is appropriate to cite this source, not in general no. Darkfrog24 (talk) 06:41, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- Infinitely more. You've been asked for sources at Talk:Otto Kittel. You haven't given any. What evidence do we have that Kurowski and the information provided by him is unreliable in relation to Otto Kittel? None has been given. This isn't a controversial book about a controversial subject. It is about one man, a pilot. It is good enough for him. Using one source, who criticises Kurowski's work on broader, controversial topics, cannot be used to infer his work on Kittel is biased. It is beyond absurd. The opinions of a few editors on Wikipedia is not enough. One editor described that it as lazy analysis, I'd go further.... Dapi89 (talk) 20:01, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- RS can be like the Bechdel test; it's not always either-or. I'd say that while there maybe some case in which it is appropriate to cite this source, not in general no. Darkfrog24 (talk) 06:41, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- From the responses so far:
-
-
-
-
- We are discussion a particular source — Kurowski, Franz (2007). Oberleutnant Otto Kittel—Der erfolgreichste Jagdflieger des Jagdgeschwaders 54 [First Lieutenant Otto Kittel—The most successful Fighter Pilot of Fighter Wing 54] (in German). Flechsig Verlag., — not other sources on Otto Kittel. Could you clarify? ("...You've been asked for sources at Talk:Otto Kittel...") K.e.coffman (talk) 20:39, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
- Your post doesn't make sense. Please read mine again.
- No criticism has been made of Kurowski's work on Kittel by anyone. You are the only person doing so. You have been asked over and over again to provide specific criticism of this work on Kittel by others. Thus far, you have failed to do so. No source, no go. It is that simple.
- The specific pieces of the article you have criticised in your opening address are non-controversial. It's barely believable that one could even attempt to cite total unreliability for this man's work on Kittel using them as an 'example'.
- Are you really disputing these things, such as Kittel was frustrated. The ground crews kept up his spirits, On 3 May 1943, Kittel resumed his combat career with three victories, Kittel had achieved a one kill per day average to reach 94 victories on 4, as made up facts, or some sort of evidence of bias? Are you saying that they're wrong? Are you saying they show Kurowski is guilty of hero-worship? Do these passages show he is a closet Neo-Nazi? What is it you're trying to show via these quotations?
- These complaints and accusations are really odd, at least, certainly the way you present them. Dapi89 (talk) 23:24, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
-
-
-
-
-
From WP:Identifying reliable sources guidelines:
"The word "source" when citing sources on Wikipedia has three related meanings:
- The piece of work itself (the article, book)
- The creator of the work (the writer, journalist)
- The publisher of the work (for example, Random House or Cambridge University Press)
Any of the three can affect reliability. Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both. These qualifications should be demonstrable to other people."
In this case, the "creator of the work" (Kurowski), has been seriously criticized. In this context of the article in question, his account also appears to be semi-fictional, as Darkfrog24 pointed out.
I would like to hear other editors' opinions. K.e.coffman (talk) 19:15, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
- Where a single citation is removed because it is unacceptable, either the statement is removed or (if the statement is uncontested and material to the article) the unacceptable cite is replaced with a CN (citation needed) flag. The statement should not be left unsupported until another editor finds and flags it for proper maintenance. That is simple etiquette. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 00:32, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
-
- K.e.coffman, this another evasion tactic, it is not an answer. You are not offering any evidence that Kurowski's work on Kittel is unreliable.
- If we looked hard enough, we could find criticism of the most celebrated and respected authors. The fact that one other book has taken a swipe at him about other unrelated topics is not good enough.
- "His work appears to be semi-fictional"? Does it ? According to who? You?
- The canvassing for the opinion of other editors belies your ultimate problem: it isn't the opinion of Wikipedia editors that matters it sources. I've repeated this request for evidence on over 10 occasions and you have not delivered one iota to this discussion. You seem to think you can prove a case without proof itself. It's time you learned otherwise. Dapi89 (talk) 16:22, 1 March 2016
-
-
- Before accusing others of WP:Canvassing for posting to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, the editor might do well to familiarise themselves with the concept of Appropriate notification. K.e.coffman (talk) 17:45, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
-
Scientific Research Publishing
JzG believes that Scientific Research Publishing should not be used as a source on Wikipedia, due to supposedly being a predatory open access publisher. Even if this was the case, that does not necessarily affect the reliability of its content; researchers write the papers, not the journal, and the reliability of the science itself is not in question. Instead of trying to discuss this and gain consensus, JzG has now begun to unilaterally remove this journal wherever it is used as a source, thereby leaving many articles with unsourced statements, including featured ones (such as Smilodon, which is what brought me here). So I'd like some discussion of where we go from here. Either this gets blacklisted as an unreliable source, in which case we need to deal with the many resulting unsourced statements left, or JzG reverts his removals. FunkMonk (talk) 13:26, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- I do understand that predatory open access publishing is a relatively new field, and it is entirely understandable that people who don't watch the fringes of our biomedical articles (where this is rife) might not be aware of the problem.
- This is a publisher which we identify in our article, based on good sources, as having substantial problems with editorial oversight, and being probably predatory. Its publications have been used by the Burzynski Clinic to publish its "studies" on so-called antineoplastons (even the clinic's own lawyer openly acknowledges that these studies are a farce), and this draft listing a bunch of publications on treatments for non-existent diseases all published either in SciRP or Ross, another predatory publisher.
- Predatory publishing clearly excludes any journal from being a reliable source. The editorial oversight that is supposed to act as a gatekeeper for good science, is replaced by the scientific publishing equivalent of a wallet biopsy. Any paper whose authors can afford the fee, gets published, and that makes the source no better than any other self-published venue. A self-=published document may be correct, as may a paper published in a predatory journal, but we exclude them because there is no editorial oversight and our own policies forbid us from being the ones to make a determination as to whether a primary source is reliable or not.
- How do we know which are the fraudulent papers paid for by researchders whose work is rejected elsewhere, versus those whose authors have simply been scammed?
- And when that publisher is actively soliciting papers promoting cancer quackery, as this one is, then there is no remaining doubt of which one might reasonably give them benefit. Guy (Help!) 13:38, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
-
-
- While being published in a vanity press or predatory journal does not necessarily mean that the information in the study is false, it does mean that it's not verifiable in the sense that we mean here. What would it take, FunkMonk, to convince you personally that a journal is predatory? What do you see as your standard? Confirmation that SRP lacks of editorial oversight? Confirmation that it will publish anyone who can pay? Criticism in other reliable publications? Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:55, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- This issue is not about me being "convinced" or not, but whether we blacklist this journal or not, and what we do with the resulting unsourced statements afterwards. I couldn't care less about the journal itself, I'm worried about the articles. Simply removing sources, but not the statements they support, leaves misleading articles, and is simply irresponsible. If it is indeed policy not to use "predatory publishers" (is it?), we need this stated somewhere clearly, and filter them automatically when they're added, like we do with spam-sites. FunkMonk (talk) 14:03, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- While being published in a vanity press or predatory journal does not necessarily mean that the information in the study is false, it does mean that it's not verifiable in the sense that we mean here. What would it take, FunkMonk, to convince you personally that a journal is predatory? What do you see as your standard? Confirmation that SRP lacks of editorial oversight? Confirmation that it will publish anyone who can pay? Criticism in other reliable publications? Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:55, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
-
-
-
-
-
- All content is supposed to be verifiable from reliable independent secondary sources, so if the text depends on an unreliable primary source then we should simply remove it per WP:PRIMARY as well as WP:RS. Guy (Help!) 14:13, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- WP:V say any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source. If claims are uncontentious, leaving them without a source is not optimal, but not a serious problem. Backing by an unreliable source is worse than no citation at all, because it gives a wrong impression of reliability. In this particular case, I have looked at some papers published by Scientific Research Publishing, and there is no evidence of even basic fact-checking - several are pure nonsense. The journals are not reliable and should not be mistaken for good sources. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:22, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- "Backing by an unreliable source is worse than no citation at all" Sorry, but that simply doesn't cut it for featured articles. Either there's a source, or the statement is removed. FunkMonk (talk) 14:25, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- An FA should not have unreliable sources. How do we know if an individual unreliable source is promoting some quixotic idea rejected by the mainstream? Primary sources are only to be used with caution, for uncontentious facts. If the fact is contentious or if you otherwise consider it must have a source, then using an unreliable source is simply not a valid option and the text should be, as you say, removed. Guy (Help!) 14:41, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- No one said a FA should have unreliable sources. I said they should not have unreferenced statements. This means that such statements should be removed, not left, if their source is deleted. FunkMonk (talk) 14:44, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- I don't know the requirement of Featured Articles, but if there is no reference, why not put in the {{cn}} citation needed in its place? I thought that was the standard thing to do--or better yet find a source that supports it, if one exists. --David Tornheim (talk) 02:05, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- That would seem obvious, but JzG rejects doing this, for whatever reason. FunkMonk (talk) 22:20, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- ...and check out his contributions page[[2]]. He seems to be on some sort of "mission". DrChrissy (talk) 22:33, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, it's Operation Improve Wikipedia. Have you even read the articles on predatory publishing and these publishers themselves? In fact I'd expect you to be the very last person to object, given your kvetching about Science Based Medicine, which actually does have an editorial board and doesn't accept articles for pay - to find you apparently arguing for sources much less dependable than SBM is kind of weird.. Guy (Help!) 23:51, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- Is that aimed at me? If it is, please could you provide a diff regarding the purported kvetching because I have no idea what you are talking about. DrChrissy (talk) 00:18, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
- How exactly does leaving a gazillion statements without source while not even leaving a note that these statements need a replacement source as result in any way "improve Wikipedia? All it does is to create unreliable articles and a giant mess for a lot of other editors to clean up. FunkMonk (talk) 00:07, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
- Just add the maintenance tags, Guy. That's all. You are there, you are editing the page, so finish the job. We don't need 50,000 characters of debate on the subject: Read the Template:Verify source: "If [a statement] is not doubtful, use Citation needed (or Cite quote) to request a citation to improve the article's verifiability."
- Yes, it's Operation Improve Wikipedia. Have you even read the articles on predatory publishing and these publishers themselves? In fact I'd expect you to be the very last person to object, given your kvetching about Science Based Medicine, which actually does have an editorial board and doesn't accept articles for pay - to find you apparently arguing for sources much less dependable than SBM is kind of weird.. Guy (Help!) 23:51, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- ...and check out his contributions page[[2]]. He seems to be on some sort of "mission". DrChrissy (talk) 22:33, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- That would seem obvious, but JzG rejects doing this, for whatever reason. FunkMonk (talk) 22:20, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- I don't know the requirement of Featured Articles, but if there is no reference, why not put in the {{cn}} citation needed in its place? I thought that was the standard thing to do--or better yet find a source that supports it, if one exists. --David Tornheim (talk) 02:05, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- No one said a FA should have unreliable sources. I said they should not have unreferenced statements. This means that such statements should be removed, not left, if their source is deleted. FunkMonk (talk) 14:44, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- An FA should not have unreliable sources. How do we know if an individual unreliable source is promoting some quixotic idea rejected by the mainstream? Primary sources are only to be used with caution, for uncontentious facts. If the fact is contentious or if you otherwise consider it must have a source, then using an unreliable source is simply not a valid option and the text should be, as you say, removed. Guy (Help!) 14:41, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- "Backing by an unreliable source is worse than no citation at all" Sorry, but that simply doesn't cut it for featured articles. Either there's a source, or the statement is removed. FunkMonk (talk) 14:25, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- All content is supposed to be verifiable from reliable independent secondary sources, so if the text depends on an unreliable primary source then we should simply remove it per WP:PRIMARY as well as WP:RS. Guy (Help!) 14:13, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
-
- No assumptions at all. We have an article describing predatory open access publishing, the facts are as stated in that article. SciRP is in Beall's list, pretty much the canonical authority. There's nothing left to assume. Guy (Help!) 14:13, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- You mean the Wikipedia article? That's not a Wikipedia policy page. FunkMonk (talk) 14:23, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- The Wikipedia article tells us about the publisher. WP:RS tells us not to use the publisher, as it's the academic equivalent of a vanity press. This does not seem to em to be contentious. Guy (Help!) 14:43, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- You mean the Wikipedia article? That's not a Wikipedia policy page. FunkMonk (talk) 14:23, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
-
-
- Actual reliable sources describe it as a predatory publisher. Personally I never draw the fine distinction between predatory and 'vanity' that some do, either way the author pays a fee to have their work published. Publishing not based on merit or peer review means it cannot be used as a reliable source and is ripe for removal.
- While this might unfairly label some legitimate papers as unreliable, this is not a problem of wikipedia's making. This is the problem of the author choosing an unreliable publisher to get their work out. Papers sourced solely to such journals/publishers fail our requirements for RS.
- As for removing sources cited to papers from such unreliable sources but leaving the statements they are supporting, this is an editorial decision. The editor could have removed all the info. Unless its something particularly contentious, leaving it and asking for a better source is an option available. We do have a citation needed template after all. Info *may* be removed from articles. It doesnt necessarily have to be in all cases where sources may be found that can support it. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:21, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- Exactly. We have sympathy for the victims but we are not qualified to work out which are victims and which are knowingly exploiting lack of peer-review. Guy (Help!) 14:26, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- In that case, to not leave a mass of unreferenced articles, JzG should at least leave a "citation needed" tag after every sentence he makes unsourced. And the journal should be listed somewhere or blocked. FunkMonk (talk) 14:28, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- I don't mind doing that where the cite is not redundant, but most of the facts I have seen don't appear to be disputed. Guy (Help!) 14:44, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- What do you base that on? In the case of Smilodon, the article refers to specific theories[3], not common knowledge or some such. FunkMonk (talk) 14:48, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- It seems to me that if a statement required a citation before, simply removing the citation without providing an alternative, or tagging with "citation needed", is close to vandalism. I have never heard before that citations are only needed where facts are disputed - I thought this was an encyclopaedia.DrChrissy (talk) 18:15, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- Well, If you are not familiar with WP:V, then I suggest you read it. And of course it does not say "only when facts are disputed". In general, removing bad sources is a step in the right direction. Removing dubious unsourced content is also a step in the right direction. But nobody can or should force a volunteer editor to make more steps than they do voluntarily. Otherwise, why not demand perfect FA's immediately.... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:02, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you for confirming WP:V does not state - "only when facts are disputed". I was actually referring to an editor's previous comment, not he policy. It takes no additional effort, and no further steps, to remove the material associated with a reference if this is not a RS. It simply requires an adjustment when selecting the material to remove - I don't think this is too taxing on editors. It also takes little effort to simply place a tag on the contested reference/content. DrChrissy (talk) 22:37, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
-
- The suggestion that users can just remove sources for being unreliable without discussion, and then leaving heaps of unsourced statements for years to come, is rather baffling. Not sure what the "why not demand perfect FA's immediately" statement has to do with anything. An article does not remain an FA for long if it has unsourced statements, so these are better off removed entirely. How hard is it really for the volunteer editor to remove a sentence preceding a source? Am I missing something? It is not about "forcing" anyone, but about common sense and courtesy. By simply removing citations, the volunteer editor is leaving even more clean-up work for other volunteer editors to do (if the removal is even noticed by anyone), and yes, forcing these to do the job for them, since the quality of the article is otherwise compromised. FunkMonk (talk) 22:53, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- The problem with this discussion is saying "x" is always or never a reliable source, full stop, is misleading. Even highly reputable sources can contain factual errors, and in those cases it would not be appropriate to cite the source. As FunkMonk suggests, if you do not believe the facts in source are reputable enough to give a solid verification to a claim, and you don't replace it with an alternative source or at least tag it with [citation needed] or [better source needed] (thus immediately flagging it as a problem), why would you believe anything in the accompanying text is correct either? This is especially important for any featured article with a scientific emphasis. In the example given here, this edit is problematic as it gives the reader the impression that the information is cited to the next inline citation along, which is (probably) wrong - so such an edit is dangerous because it gives the impression of falsified sources. To give another example, on numerous occasions I have wandered round BLPs and taken out statements cited to The Sun, and by and large I have not left the accompanying text in (usually because doing so violates WP:BLP anyway). Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 14:31, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
- The suggestion that users can just remove sources for being unreliable without discussion, and then leaving heaps of unsourced statements for years to come, is rather baffling. Not sure what the "why not demand perfect FA's immediately" statement has to do with anything. An article does not remain an FA for long if it has unsourced statements, so these are better off removed entirely. How hard is it really for the volunteer editor to remove a sentence preceding a source? Am I missing something? It is not about "forcing" anyone, but about common sense and courtesy. By simply removing citations, the volunteer editor is leaving even more clean-up work for other volunteer editors to do (if the removal is even noticed by anyone), and yes, forcing these to do the job for them, since the quality of the article is otherwise compromised. FunkMonk (talk) 22:53, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
-
- Thank you for confirming WP:V does not state - "only when facts are disputed". I was actually referring to an editor's previous comment, not he policy. It takes no additional effort, and no further steps, to remove the material associated with a reference if this is not a RS. It simply requires an adjustment when selecting the material to remove - I don't think this is too taxing on editors. It also takes little effort to simply place a tag on the contested reference/content. DrChrissy (talk) 22:37, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- Well, If you are not familiar with WP:V, then I suggest you read it. And of course it does not say "only when facts are disputed". In general, removing bad sources is a step in the right direction. Removing dubious unsourced content is also a step in the right direction. But nobody can or should force a volunteer editor to make more steps than they do voluntarily. Otherwise, why not demand perfect FA's immediately.... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:02, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- It seems to me that if a statement required a citation before, simply removing the citation without providing an alternative, or tagging with "citation needed", is close to vandalism. I have never heard before that citations are only needed where facts are disputed - I thought this was an encyclopaedia.DrChrissy (talk) 18:15, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- What do you base that on? In the case of Smilodon, the article refers to specific theories[3], not common knowledge or some such. FunkMonk (talk) 14:48, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- I don't mind doing that where the cite is not redundant, but most of the facts I have seen don't appear to be disputed. Guy (Help!) 14:44, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- In that case, to not leave a mass of unreferenced articles, JzG should at least leave a "citation needed" tag after every sentence he makes unsourced. And the journal should be listed somewhere or blocked. FunkMonk (talk) 14:28, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- Exactly. We have sympathy for the victims but we are not qualified to work out which are victims and which are knowingly exploiting lack of peer-review. Guy (Help!) 14:26, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Some points that might deserve consideration. A predatory publisher essentially produces self-published sources, in relation to the author. However, the standing policy is: Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. So in cases where on a scientific subject professional scientists have published peer-reviewed articles, their subsequent non-reviewed articles should in principle be considered reliable.
Secondly, we should remember that it is perfectly all-right to use even a questionable source as a source about that source itself. A Wikipedia article, even when addressing utterly uncontentious content, should ideally consist of statements of the form Source X claims fact Y anyway. So, when statements of the form Object X has quality Y are changed into Scientist Z stated/concluded/suggested in xxxx that object X has quality Y, it becomes irrelevant whether said scientist published this opinion in a questionable source — unless, of course, it was some silly hypothesis that should be disregarded by us because of Undue Weight, the reason why he could only publish it in a questionable source in the first place. Simply explicitly mentioning in the main text the author(s) and the studies involved, thus solves the problem.--MWAK (talk) 18:25, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
- I agree that we should treat these as self-published sources. Publications become reliable because of their editorial oversight, and inclusion in Beall's list generally implies that a publisher has liittle or no oversight or that it allows what oversight it has to be trumped by fee-seeking behavior. But I would go farther than that. A paper on arXiv, for instance, is self-published (the editorial controls at arXiv are too weak to confer reliability) but neutral: many good sources are self-published at arXiv and then later peer-reviewed, there is no profit motive complicating the issue, etc. On the other hand, no self-respecting academic would knowingly publish at a predatory publisher: reliable non-predatory academic publishers are plentiful, confer more respect on one's publications, and are generally cheaper (often free to authors rather than charging publication fees). Therefore, publication in a predatory publisher such as SRP is a symptom that something is wrong and that one should treat the source very carefully if at all. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:45, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
FunkMonk insists on reinserting the cite to this source demanding that if I remove it then I must also remove all text purportedly supported by it. This is surreal. Guy (Help!) 23:41, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
- Sigh, JzG you've done similar at Suillellus luridus. I would agree that if you are going to remove the source, please remove the fact. In this case it is pretty trivial though. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:11, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- I have done this where i think the information is likely to be disputed. Many cites were redundant (para already had a source) and most were for information that seems unlikely to be challenged. Some were of the class "X claims this Great new Theory, source X's paper in SCIRP", and those of course I have removed in their entirety. Guy (Help!) 11:13, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
- "Surreal"? It is common practice. Especially for FAs. And what does "para already had a source" even mean? The source at the end of a paragraph rarely if ever supports a sentence earlier in the paragraph that is followed by a different source. You're leaving the rest of us to clean up your mess, and that's why I've reverted you. FunkMonk (talk) 12:40, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
- I don't know the requirement of Featured Articles, but if deleting the predatory publication leaves no reference, why not put in the {{cn}} citation needed in its place? (as mentioned above) I thought that was the standard thing to do--or better yet find a source that supports it, if one exists. If no one can find a source for it, then it gets deleted: no mess. I don't think the FA quality is reduced by using this approach, even though "citation needed" does make the article look less attractive to the reader. But leaving in a questionable source is not much better. --David Tornheim (talk) 02:34, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- And when the form is "X claims this Great new Theory, source X's paper in SCIRP", it should not be removed at all because even when the source would be unreliable as to the content (which, again, may only be assumed if X is not an established expert), it suffices as proof that X made the claim. You are violating the NPOV principle.--MWAK (talk) 07:19, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
- To leave it in sounds like WP:OR to me. I thought grand new theories had to be reported in secondary sources, right? Can you provide WP:PAG that defends your claim that this should be left in? --David Tornheim (talk) 02:39, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- Well, the existence (not truth) of even a "grand new theory" is sufficiently proven by its "primary" source if that's a scientific article. If such an article is deemed unreliable because of being published in a predatory magazine (it is BTW not to be considered unreliable if the author is an established scientist for then the rules about self-publishing should apply), this only affects the content. So we may not claim "Fact X" and merely give a citation but we may claim "Scientist Z claims Fact X" and leave it to the reader whether he wants to believe Scientist Z. To give an example: we may not claim sauropods still exist in the Congo but we may claim (and correctly do) "Roy P. Mackal in 1987 claimed that sauropods exist in the Congo" in his A Living Dinosaur? In Search of Mokele-Mbembe even though this book is very unreliable as to the biological content. Whether a predatory publisher publishes such sources then becomes utterly irrelevant.--MWAK (talk) 07:54, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- To leave it in sounds like WP:OR to me. I thought grand new theories had to be reported in secondary sources, right? Can you provide WP:PAG that defends your claim that this should be left in? --David Tornheim (talk) 02:39, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- "Surreal"? It is common practice. Especially for FAs. And what does "para already had a source" even mean? The source at the end of a paragraph rarely if ever supports a sentence earlier in the paragraph that is followed by a different source. You're leaving the rest of us to clean up your mess, and that's why I've reverted you. FunkMonk (talk) 12:40, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
- I have done this where i think the information is likely to be disputed. Many cites were redundant (para already had a source) and most were for information that seems unlikely to be challenged. Some were of the class "X claims this Great new Theory, source X's paper in SCIRP", and those of course I have removed in their entirety. Guy (Help!) 11:13, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
Note: if one is searching for SRP publications used as sources on Wikipedia, as well as searching for their domain name in the URL, another possibility is to search for "10.4236" in the doi. Google claims to find about 231 of these. —David Eppstein (talk) 04:48, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
One aspect I do not understand here is that simply the presence of a journal or publisher's name on a list is being used to delete the reference (and sometimes the associated material). I once used the Daily Mail as a source. Due to the comments I received about this, I questioned why there is no black-list of newspapers that are widely considered as non-RS so that editors considering using these sources would be alerted prior to making the edits. In the ensuing discussion, people seemed to think that setting such lists in concrete was ill-advised, so why the difference here? I then asked about the criteria that people might use as to whether a newspaper is RS or not and whether we should include this on the policy/guideline page. I met incredible resistance to this idea. Today, I have spent some time going through several of the listed predatory journals and for some of them, the only practice they have which is different to non-listed journals is they charge money for their services.DrChrissy (talk) 20:46, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
- If it were only charging money for open-access publication, many well-established and mainstream academic publishers should also be listed. But no, the real problem is not the money they charge: it's that, in order to assure the continued flow of this money, these journals either perform no adequate peer review of the papers they publish (taking all or almost all submissions from authors willing to pay) or that they let the willingness to pay override the judgements of the peer reviewers. (There are also some other bad habits that can land a publisher on this list, such as falsifying their editorial boards or spamming potential contributors, that are less central to the question of how reliable they are.) —David Eppstein (talk) 00:18, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- But how do we know whether a journal is lying on its web-site about e.g. peer-review, editorial boards? Do we just put absolute trust in Beall's list being 100% accurate? DrChrissy (talk) 17:49, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- We know Beall is reliable because he is widely considered to be reliable by known experts. I know it can seem a little strange, given the vociferousness with which unreliable sources are often attacked, but at some point, we need to trust the experts. Establishing the reliability of a source isn't an exercise in formal logic, but more like the legal concept of the preponderance of evidence. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 18:39, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- I guess part of the problem is that I am seeing some papers in these journals which are written by well-established, highly reputable authors. I can think of several possible reasons for this, e.g. to achieve a necessary deadline so the paper can be included as "published" in a grant application/CV (in my subject area, publication in traditional journals often takes 6-12 months!). So what do we do about these papers? DrChrissy (talk) 18:57, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- You might be able to make a case that an article by a known, reliable expert published in a predatory journal is an RS. I think that's something we'd need to decide on a case by case basis, though. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 19:52, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yes - I agree entirely. I think this is actually what is intended by WP:RS which states Beware of sources that sound reliable but... might have a reputation for "predatory" behavior. I think we should note the word "Beware" does not mean "You are not permitted to use". DrChrissy (talk) 20:06, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- If people agree that this should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis, would we also agree that the best place for this case-by-case discussion, at least initially, is at the Talk page of the article in question, rather than at a more general noticeboard such as this. This would likely involve those with the greatest interest and expertise in the subject matter. DrChrissy (talk) 20:38, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- It should be rejected in all cases regardless of who wrote it. A recognized expert shouldn't have any problem getting published by a respectable journal, and seeing one in a vanity journal should be considered immediately suspicious. Even under optimal circumstances, a recognized expert's paper in a reliable journal, these sources are very primary and tend to represent the personal interpretations of one researcher when the article needs to represent primarily the general consensus of the field. Passing peer review doesn't confer "truth" onto an idea, it just means that it passed enough basic review that it's worth a skeptical reading by other people trained in that field. Too often editors tend to forget that and somehow these become "truth" for uncritical perusal by an untrained audience...which is not what the paper was originally intended for. A lot of funny ideas make it past peer review because they're "safe" for other experts but would never have made it into a textbook, whose intended audience might be misled. Considering these problems, considering how many respectable journals there are that we might use instead, and considering that it's hard to see why an expert would use such a venue to make a claim representative of their field, I see no reason a vanity press should be allowed at all. Geogene (talk) 20:47, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- No. We don't reject all self-published sources (which is what these journals amount to: if you pay, they publish), so we shouldn't reject all predatory journal articles out of hand. That being said, the onus should be on the editor adding such a reference to show that this particular article is reliable, despite its publication circumstances. If someone were to come along and delete a reference to (for instance) a Brian Greene paper on string theory that was published in a predatory journal, that'd be fine. The person who added it should come back and explain carefully that Greene is a recognized expert before re-inserting it.
- Also, you raise a very good point about where reputable experts will publish. The acknowledged expert who publishes in a predatory journal will be an extremely rare bird. They will be uncommon exceptions to the rule that predatory journal articles are useless. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 20:56, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- @User:Geogene. Perhaps I should make my example clearer. In my area of publication, it very often takes 6 to 12 months from manuscript submission for the journal to arrive on the library shelves/on line. During that time, I may wish to apply for funds for a grant which asks for a publication list. Obviously, it is more advantageous for that paper to be cited as "Published" rather than "Submitted". The predatory journals offer a much shorter time to publication, and it might be worth me paying money to get it published there so it can be included in my grant application. As a career-researcher, I would be considering the quality of my paper and how this will be viewed by my peers after publication. The standard of my paper is actually independent of the money generating practices of the publishing house (which we should remember is not the journal). I totally appreciate this type of example will not be the case for many publications in predatory journals, but I feel we need to be extremely careful of simply deleting references on the basis they are from "predatory publishers". DrChrissy (talk) 22:00, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
-
-
- Your example only underscores the need to look askance at such publications - the secondary gain is another reason to suspect such publications will include poor-quality research. I have no intention to impugn your work; just commenting that the example is not at all reassuring (IMHO). — soupvector (talk) 00:41, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
-
-
- @User:Geogene. Perhaps I should make my example clearer. In my area of publication, it very often takes 6 to 12 months from manuscript submission for the journal to arrive on the library shelves/on line. During that time, I may wish to apply for funds for a grant which asks for a publication list. Obviously, it is more advantageous for that paper to be cited as "Published" rather than "Submitted". The predatory journals offer a much shorter time to publication, and it might be worth me paying money to get it published there so it can be included in my grant application. As a career-researcher, I would be considering the quality of my paper and how this will be viewed by my peers after publication. The standard of my paper is actually independent of the money generating practices of the publishing house (which we should remember is not the journal). I totally appreciate this type of example will not be the case for many publications in predatory journals, but I feel we need to be extremely careful of simply deleting references on the basis they are from "predatory publishers". DrChrissy (talk) 22:00, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yes - I agree entirely. I think this is actually what is intended by WP:RS which states Beware of sources that sound reliable but... might have a reputation for "predatory" behavior. I think we should note the word "Beware" does not mean "You are not permitted to use". DrChrissy (talk) 20:06, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- You might be able to make a case that an article by a known, reliable expert published in a predatory journal is an RS. I think that's something we'd need to decide on a case by case basis, though. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 19:52, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- I guess part of the problem is that I am seeing some papers in these journals which are written by well-established, highly reputable authors. I can think of several possible reasons for this, e.g. to achieve a necessary deadline so the paper can be included as "published" in a grant application/CV (in my subject area, publication in traditional journals often takes 6-12 months!). So what do we do about these papers? DrChrissy (talk) 18:57, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- We know Beall is reliable because he is widely considered to be reliable by known experts. I know it can seem a little strange, given the vociferousness with which unreliable sources are often attacked, but at some point, we need to trust the experts. Establishing the reliability of a source isn't an exercise in formal logic, but more like the legal concept of the preponderance of evidence. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 18:39, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- But how do we know whether a journal is lying on its web-site about e.g. peer-review, editorial boards? Do we just put absolute trust in Beall's list being 100% accurate? DrChrissy (talk) 17:49, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
- I agree - all publications in predatory journals should be viewed with suspicion. I actually view all publications I reference in WP with the same eye I use as an editor and reviewer in several traditional science journals. The point I am trying to make is that there are some quality papers in predatory journals and to have editors on WP deleting these simply on the basis of which publishing house they come from without discussing this on the Talk page first is clearly disruptive. DrChrissy (talk) 01:38, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
- Thanks for the reminder about the SPS exceptions. I've occasionally used expert blogs as sources myself (everybody's got a blog, and they tend to be reader-friendly and reasonably orthodox). I'd rather not lump all the different categories of self-publishing together, because some types should attract more suspicion than others, for the reasons I've given. But the existing policy does seem to support that. Geogene (talk) 21:50, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
-
-
-
-
-
-
Yeah, this is a category of SPS that warrants a metric fuck-ton of suspicion. That being said, I just can't escape the conclusion that there might be a few rare gems to be found. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 22:02, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- In spite of this discussion being ongoing, and no consensus has been reached, JzG just keeps on mass-removing sources as a bulldozer without any prior discussion (see various complaints by several editors on his talk page). I suggest he refrain from doing anything of the sort until some conclusion has been reached here. FunkMonk (talk) 23:36, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
-
- This is really very simple: every single time I have removed one of these sources, it has been a WP:PRIMARY source. Primary sources are deprecated. We also know, because these are predatory publishers, that the things which allow us to sometimes use primary sources - academic peer-review weeding out the crap, basically - is absent or seriously deficient in the journals. In fact, that's the defining characteristic. So we have primary sources in unreliable journals - inappropriate on two levels. These citations neeed to go. Including them gives a false impression of validity to the publishers. Guy (Help!) 23:45, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- Yes it is very simple. Your deletions are obviously contentious (hence the number of complaints on your Talk page). Therefore, you should be discussing these deletions at the article Talk page before making them. DrChrissy (talk) 23:57, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- Those removing these kind of sources need to be more careful, as discussed above, and not leave statements that looked to be referenced by a later reference that does not support he statement. So either check that it is supported by the following reference, supply an alternate reference, add [citation needed], leave the reference if the author is a recognized expert, or remove the statement and the unreliable reference. If they only remove the reference and leave a dubious statement, it is a net negative to Wikipedia readers and writers. This sort of removal is akin to just deleting words that are spelled incorrectly without fixing them up. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 00:45, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
- This is really very simple: every single time I have removed one of these sources, it has been a WP:PRIMARY source. Primary sources are deprecated. We also know, because these are predatory publishers, that the things which allow us to sometimes use primary sources - academic peer-review weeding out the crap, basically - is absent or seriously deficient in the journals. In fact, that's the defining characteristic. So we have primary sources in unreliable journals - inappropriate on two levels. These citations neeed to go. Including them gives a false impression of validity to the publishers. Guy (Help!) 23:45, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
Other predatory journals
It'd have been a courtesy posting a note about the present discussion in Talk:Scientific Research Publishing and also in Talk:Predatory open access publishing.
If the position of removing citations to predatory publishers prevails, it must be applied consistently. Should we include current predatory journals only or also past predatory journals too? If a journal is no longer considered predatory, do past articles remain black-listed? And when a journal becomes recognized as predatory, do we black-list only new articles?
I've taken the liberty of notifying affected parties:
- Talk:Dove Medical Press, Talk:Hindawi Publishing Corporation, Talk:Libertas Academica, Talk:MDPI; and
- Talk:Frontiers Media, Talk:OMICS Publishing Group, Talk:Scientific Research Publishing, Talk:World Academy of Science, Engineering and Technology.
fgnievinski (talk) 19:43, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
-
- That is again such inappropriate use of article Talk pages! I am reverting those, and will discuss with you at your Talk page. Jytdog (talk) 20:06, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
- Not sure why you're duplicating this discussion here then. fgnievinski (talk) 01:29, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- That is again such inappropriate use of article Talk pages! I am reverting those, and will discuss with you at your Talk page. Jytdog (talk) 20:06, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
- To answer your questions: we are not removing these as a punishment to the journal for being predatory, we are removing them because the journal's predatory practices fail to meet our standards for what makes a reliable source. So, if a journal was once legitimate but then falls into predatory ways, or if a once-predatory journal reforms and becomes legitimate, then the references that should be removed are the ones from the period when it was predatory. But if we're not sure, we should err on the side of not accepting sources we're not sure about, rather than allowing badly sourced claims to slip into the encyclopedia. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:25, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
- Alright, so let's go ahead and remove citations to all other articles published in journals during the periods in which their publisher was considered predatory. fgnievinski (talk) 01:29, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- We should summarize the present consensus in either or both WP:RS#Predatory journals and WP:MEDRS#Predatory journals. fgnievinski (talk) 17:29, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- agree summarize the present consensus is best (WP:MEDRS#Predatory journals)--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 19:55, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
DOIs
Thanks to @David Eppstein: above for pointing out that some predatory publishers can be identified by DOI. Here are two, including probably the worst, wiht the DOI linked to a search:
- 10.4172: OMICS Group
- 10.4236: Scientific Research Publishing
- 10.3389: Frontiers Media (added later) fgnievinski (talk) 17:28, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
Perusing these articles finds a mountain of problems other than simply crap sources. Many, many vanity articles, a lot of WP:OR and so on. Guy (Help!) 10:38, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
Slightly different tack
I have an academic interest in this subject as well as an interest as it relates to Wikipedia. While I think being placed on Beall's List is, generally, enough of a WP:REDFLAG to warrant severe skepticism with respect to the reliability of a source, there is actually a larger problem in academic publishing generally, as of late. This is the problem with distributed editorial control of journals and is generally the problem with even so-called "Gold Standard Open Access" as Beall puts it. The basic issue is that when one replaces a small, respected editorial board with a huge (sometimes numbering in the thousands) list of potential editors, niche subjects will end up in blind alleys with papers published that do not live up to any meaningful standard of reliability. This criticism has lately included journals that are very prestigious indeed including PlosOne (recently implicated in a problematic situation where they published creationist pseudoscience[4]), Medicine (journal) (recently implicated in a problematic situation where they published acupuncture pseudoscience[5]), as well as Scientific Reports (recently implicated in a problematic situation where they published Ayurveda pseudoscience[6]).
The problem for Wikipedia is not with the "predatory open access" model, per se. After all, it is to the larger Wikipedia movement's benefit that academic publishing go the way of open access, and if a journal ends up being "predatory", that's really more a matter of the ethics of publishing than it is a question of quality. No doubt that a predatory journal is much more likely to be full of low quality nonsense, but it will also, unfortunately, be prone to include a few articles that are actually decent (though the citation rates are never liable to take off because, well, predatory journals essentially by definition never show up in the standard lit. review searches done by academics). Occasionally, superb articles are dug up from predatory journals and go on to be cited widely as being particularly precocious thought or perhaps having primacy. Unfortunately, what can often happen is such papers can become memory holed once the predatory publisher decides to close shop.
From Wikipedia's perspective, the real problem is actually one of (lack of proper) editorial control. That said, just because a journal lacks proper editorial control doesn't mean that every single paper published in the journal is garbage. The only way to really tell is to look at the staying power and citations. This should be done in any case, regardless of how prestigious the journal is in which the paper is published. The use of primary sources such as journal articles should only be done after they have been vetted by several independent external authorities. After all, the vast majority of papers published in Science (journal) or Nature (journal) contain analyses and claims that are later shown to be overstated if not completely incorrect. That's the name of the game in academic research and it's exactly why WP:PSTS is so important. Wikipedia should be a non-innovative source. It should not be on the cutting edge.
I think what is needed is a sort of skepticism flag that should fly whenever a paper is a) published in a low-impact or questionable venue, b) new, c) making audacious claims that have not been commented upon by many other experts. In those cases, it's okay to put the paper in a holding area to see what may come. Because, we are not supposed to guess as to what may come. This will mean that Wikipedia lags behind the cutting edge research that excites many, but I think this is the only practical way forward.
jps (talk) 18:16, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
Past Life Regression Article
I added “Medical doctors in Brazil, India, Portugal, Singapore and Germany have written about using past life stories to help in resolving emotional issues and medical conditions” The book quoted (Dr Peter Mack, isbn = 878 0 9567887 8 8 Inner Healing Journey: A Medical Perspective 2014) is edited by a medical doctor and contains chapters written by other medical doctors. It is not claiming past life stories resolve a specific condition but they give their personal experiences and views of using it and the healing that resulted. The objection is that "WP:MEDRS applies to this update because its an article about a subject people will have an interest in". My point is WP:MEDRS does not apply because no medical information on resolving any medical condition is given.
A sentence was removed “The technique is not taught as part of any medical internships” this is part of the rambling from an internet site from a critic with no evidence to support it. I added “The technique is included in a textbook (U. James, isbn = 978 1 910272 45 9, Clinical Hypnosis Textbook: A Guide for Practical Intervention, Radcliffe Publishing, 2015, Ch 21} for 10 UK medical schools and for medical doctors doing a MSc in Clinical hypnosis at the Robert Gordon University”. The author of the book is professor Ursula James of Robert Gordon University. She is one of the leaders in her field and the text book used as a reference book widely. It is mandatory reading for medical doctors on the MSC course. It has chapters written by psychologists and therapists and chapter devoted to past life regression and its use. It is a secondary source book about past life regression. see http://www.amazon.com/Clinical-Hypnosis-Textbook-Practical-Intervention-ebook/dp/B013K8JP8Q/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1454379922&sr=1-1&keywords=ursula+james+hypnosis
This request is to overturn the deletion by KateWishing (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andy Tomlinson (talk • contribs)
- Textbooks are sometimes tertiary sources, not secondary, but it's still good for use. Radcliffe Publishing is not a vanity press, and the observation that this technique is indeed taught as part of at least one medical program is appropriate. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:31, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
- The wording of the statement seems to give the impression that a substantial number of medical doctors have actually endorsed it, and that does probably run the risk of running afoul of MEDRS. It might rectify the issue if the statement was attributed to those specific doctors in-text.
- The claim that the text book is "used by 10 UK Medical schools and for medical doctors doing a MSc in Clinical hypnosis at the Robert Gordon University.", needs better sourcing. It looks like it comes from the publisher's blurb on Amazon. I don't know that a statement like that is really subjected to rigorous fact checking, and it probably isn't kept up to date. It also doesn't really seem like a great way of assessing the quality of medical information. Nblund (talk) 01:53, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- The major problem here is that past life regression is pseudoscientific nonsense, and we have to be careful not to imply that it has any objective merit. Guy (Help!) 14:16, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- I wonder what the article is called, Past Life Regression redirects to Orbs (band)...
- (Don't think MEDRS applies to anything mentioned above, there's no statement that could reasonably be preceded by "A Cochrane systematic review and meta-analysis of randomized trials found that ..".) Prevalence 16:28, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for all your views so perhaps this can be used “Medical doctors in Brazil, India, Portugal, Singapore and Germany have written about their personal views of using past life regression to help in resolving emotional issues and medical conditions” and "The technique is in a chapter in a textbook used in at least one medical school in the UK and for medical doctors doing a MSc in Clinical hypnosis at the Robert Gordon University”— Preceding unsigned comment added by Andy Tomlinson (talk • contribs)
- Not directly related to the RS issue, but: although you haven't signed your statements, it appears based on your account name that you wrote the forward for this book, and that you have a close affiliation with the organization that produced it. (edit: it also appears that you wrote the chapter in the textbook) That connection might present a conflict of interest, and it's probably better to let another editor decide whether or not this particular source is noteworthy enough to warrant mention.
- The book is subtitled "a medical perspective", and it seems to emphasize the medical credentials of the individuals involved. The statement that they used the technique for "resolving emotional issues and medical conditions" also seems like it suggests that this book is offering medical advise. The wording you are proposing seems like it gives the impression that a large number of doctors in multiple countries have written about using this practice, but it actually seems like a pretty small number.
- Also, to reiterate: the second statement still appears to be coming from the publisher's blurb. I think it's a primary source in that respect, and is potentially dubious. Both of these statements seem like they might suggest that this is widely practiced or accepted among physicians, and that poses a big problem that may go beyond and RS issue into a problem of promoting a fringe viewpoint. Nblund (talk) 22:21, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
I wonder what it is about the subject of Past Life Regression that causes new information on the subject to be dismissed so easily? A simple google search on the author of the Clinical Hypnosis book “Professor Ursula James at Robert Gordon University in Aberdeen” would have found on the university website http://www.rgu.ac.uk/news/clinical-hypnosis-introduced-to-support-students/
'Clinical Hypnosis is an exciting area of medical practice and we are delighted Professor James has joined our team. We look forward to working with her to develop new courses for the university as well as innovative ways of alleviating stress and improving student performance. Professor James currently heads a team which teaches clinical hypnosis at 11 medical schools in the UK including Oxford and Cambridge. As well as authoring a number of books including The Clinical Hypnosis Textbook'
Her book has been written specifically for training medical doctors in hypnotherapy at university and I would have thought this counted as a suitable reference book to quote from. Also considering the previous quote that it replaced which had been used for a few years was “The technique is not taught as part of any medical internships” and was from an internet site called the Skeptic Dictionary and was part of a critics rambling with no evidence to support it.
Turning to the other book used as a reference “Inner Healing Journey: A Medical Perspective.” Its got 11 patient case studies by 6 medical doctors( two are psychiatrists) of how they have found past life regression assisted in healing when the traditional medical approach was unhelp. An internet search on the author of the book “Dr Peter Mack, singapore” would have found that he is a practicing general surgeon trained in regression therapy which uses past life regression and he explains how it works in great detail in his books and website see http://www.petermack.sg/articles With a little more diligence and internet searches they would have found the book was sponsored by “Society for Medical Advance and Research with Regression Therapy” which has 11 medical doctors from around the world and two psychologists all who have been trained in using past life regression. see http://www.smar-rt.com/members.htm They may done more searches and found a link to the EARTh Association of Regression Therapy http://www.earth-association.org/recognized-training-programs-recognized-trainers/ and found it creates a worldwide standard and has recognised 11 schools programs and has over 200 members from around the world.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Andy Tomlinson (talk • contribs)
So is all this “psudo science” or something that needs to be taken seriously and included to a balanced views in the article on Past Life Regression. As I have a vested interest its best I withdraw but ask for an editor to pick it up and update the article. While the books mentioned and Dr Peter Mack’s website may be a useful starting point I’m willing to help if asked. Andy Tomlinson (talk) 11:10, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, it's pseudoscience. The lack of references in credible sources speaks volumes: the websites you list are all basically selling it. The appeal to anecdote (aka "case studies") used in place of robustly designed trials is also a dead giveaway. That's how chiropractors claim to cure colic and homeopaths claim to cure... well, anything. Guy (Help!) 11:15, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
- Professor Ursula James, the author of the Clinical Hypnosis textbook, also claims to have been taught healing magic by the spirit of a 16th-century prophetess.[7] She is not a credible source for medical information. KateWishing (talk) 17:17, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
This is a book of fiction that she wrote and as the universities she teaches in are not interested in her personal activities why should Wikipedia. Andy Tomlinson (talk) 17:56, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
The following article was written by Mário Simões, Professor of Psychiatry and of Consciousness Sciences, Faculty of Medicine of Lisbon, Portugal. He is the Director of the Post-Graduation Course in Clinical and Experimental Hypnosis and of the Laboratory for Mind-Matter Interaction with Therapeutic Intention. The article was published in a peer reviewed ‘The International Journal of Transpersonal Studies’
‘Being symbolic in nature, imagination permits representations of things that do not exist or which are approximations of reality. It is a capacity that allows elaboration of concepts or precognitions which would be impossible to realize in any other way. The idea of exploring reincarnation is close to the concept that a patient must re-experience the primeval drama to exhaust the emotions from it. It does not matter if the experiences are true or not, what is important is an event is experienced in a personized way.’
Simoes, M. Altered States of Consciousness and Psychotherapy, The International Journal of Transpersonal Studies, 2002, v 21 p150 [8]
So now can we start to have a balanced article on Past Life Regression. If not perhaps a controversial subject like this is to much for Wikipedia and it may be best for the whole article to be removed.Andy Tomlinson (talk) 12:40, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
- If by "balanced" you mean balancing the reality based view that it is bullshit, with the views of some wacky folks who believe in it, then: no. That's not because it's controversial, it's because of WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE. And this is by design. Guy (Help!) 12:42, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
catalogue of open source software confer notability
Several editors have attempted to argue at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tuleap (project management) that http://www.dhbw-stuttgart.de/fileadmin/dateien/KOS/pub_kos.content_1.2015.band1.pdf confers notability on Tuleap. I don't believe it does. These editors appear to be active editors of open source software and I believe that they are grasping at straws here. By extension, if it is significant coverage, then every other product listed in the catalogue is inherently notable. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:31, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- It's a reasonable source to show that the software exists, but does nothing to show notability.- MrX 13:20, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
-
- Sorry, but has somebody clicked on the link? It's not a catalogue at all. It's a collection of student group theses, published as a report by the Kompentenzzentrum Open Source (KOS) (a research center on open source by the department of Business Informatics at DHBW Stuttgart). The individual reports compare and evaluate open source tools for different purposes. People may be confused by the Word "Katalog", but the "Katalog" in question is just a scheme of evaluation criteria applied to the tools. This is certainly only gray literature, but it is an independent academic reference, and the fact that the KOS has published it as a report means that it has passed at least the scrutiny of the grading professor. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:46, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
- I did click the link and I read it, in German. It is just a catalogue. Knowing that it was only students makes it all the less notable. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:29, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- In that case, we may need go agree to disagree. Let it be on the record that this native German speaker does not think it's a catalogue, and is somewhat confused as to why other people would think that. Also note that the reports, while written by students, are ordered and paid for by industry, and go through quality control of the KOS and its professors. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:38, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- You're not the only one confused. I guess some people call Cochrane reviews catalogs of medical studies, history books catalogs of past events ... I also think the opinion of someone who claims to have read it but doesn't know who wrote it would not carry much weight. On the other hand, I don't think it's enough to make Tuleap notable. Prevalence 05:17, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
- In that case, we may need go agree to disagree. Let it be on the record that this native German speaker does not think it's a catalogue, and is somewhat confused as to why other people would think that. Also note that the reports, while written by students, are ordered and paid for by industry, and go through quality control of the KOS and its professors. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 08:38, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- I did click the link and I read it, in German. It is just a catalogue. Knowing that it was only students makes it all the less notable. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:29, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry, but has somebody clicked on the link? It's not a catalogue at all. It's a collection of student group theses, published as a report by the Kompentenzzentrum Open Source (KOS) (a research center on open source by the department of Business Informatics at DHBW Stuttgart). The individual reports compare and evaluate open source tools for different purposes. People may be confused by the Word "Katalog", but the "Katalog" in question is just a scheme of evaluation criteria applied to the tools. This is certainly only gray literature, but it is an independent academic reference, and the fact that the KOS has published it as a report means that it has passed at least the scrutiny of the grading professor. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:46, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
itv.com
How reliable is itv.com as a source? To give an example, Katie Hopkins' recent brain surgery was added here citing the website. I followed this up at Talk:Katie Hopkins#Surgery (and relation to WP:BLPSOURCES) as a search for better sources brought up little more than the "usual suspects" such as the Daily Mail which I would, by and large, avoid like the plague on BLPs, tabloids and similar "gossip" publications, and finally itv.com? While ITV itself can produce high quality work (I am impartial to a bit of Morse and Lewis myself), I'm concerned that the website typically focuses too much on celebrity-focused sensational gossip, and a story that is genuinely worth reporting will appear in high-quality publications such as BBC News or The Guardian. What does anyone else think? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 14:16, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
- I'd say ITV_News is reliable enough to use. It isn't user-generated, it's professionally written and it has editorial oversight. NYTimes and BBC are clearly better, but Wikipedia itself has many articles that are themselves celebrity-focused, so ITV News has its place here. If you just want a better or additional source for this particular fact, the matter is also covered in several other sources. I will add, though, that I don't usually work BLP. Darkfrog24 (talk) 21:27, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
- Er, did you look at the search results you supplied? I got stereotypical WP:BLPSOURCES violating tabloid fodder; I especially note the Irish Independent source claiming Lily Allen called her a "massive twat" - wholly unnecessary for a BLP I think. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:03, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
- I did. Considering that Hopkins gave The Sun a direct interview, I'd infer that she at least considers them worthwhile. The "massive" comment is a direct quote attributed to one of Hopkins' critics. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:37, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
- ITV.com as a source for this seems perfectly cromulent, in the context of Hopkins' epilepsy (already covered in the article it seems) - it is a legitimate source and the information seems not to be contentious in the eyes of the subject. Wags will of course comment on the keen eyesight of the surgeon who was actually able to find the organ in question, but Hopkins does not seem to be shy of discussing the procedure. It is possible this is a play for sympathy or an attempt to excuse her numerous unforced errors and rampant bigotry, but I am inclined to assume good faith and simply accept that she is actually standing up for the epileptic community and speaking openly about something that is a source of substantial prejudice and misunderstanding, so, rarely for Hopkins, I say fair play, and given that she seems not to have a problem with it being discussed openly, let us include it.
- On the subject of Lily Allen's comment, while I think she is bang on the money we would not, of course, include that unless it was the subject of substantial detailed commentary in sources a bit more heavyweight than Hello. Guy (Help!) 11:07, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
- Er, did you look at the search results you supplied? I got stereotypical WP:BLPSOURCES violating tabloid fodder; I especially note the Irish Independent source claiming Lily Allen called her a "massive twat" - wholly unnecessary for a BLP I think. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:03, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
Two sources needing feedback
I would like, please, feedback on whether or not these two sources are good:
- http://www.abeatingheart.ca/say-dog-meat-toronto-marching/
- http://www.pawsforthenews.tv/1news/1featured-news/it-is-legal-to-consume-dogs-and-cats-in-canada/
The content it supports is:
Many thanks.
Anna Frodesiak (talk) 11:12, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
- Both sources are valid. This is the law in Canada...Anna does not know anything about Canada, so she is a little confused...please forgive her -:) IQ125 (talk) 12:42, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
- Hey, come on IQ125. A quick search produces many sources that say that Canada allows the consumption of dog meat, including CBC News and The Toronto Star. Cats are harder to corroborate. But if it is the law in Canada, laws are public knowledge. The law itself would be citable as a source.
- However, A Beating Heart's About Us page shows that it is a personal site run by a non-expert. It's not RS. Paws for the News doesn't seem to have an About Us page, so I can't tell if it has editorial oversight. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:30, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
-
-
- Thank you, Darkfrog24. I agree. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 20:58, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
-
- Both are correct citations, you can eat doggies and kitties in Canada...YUMMY -:) IQ125 (talk) 13:31, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Jaime Alguersuari
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Jaime Alguersuari (ex-Formula One racing driver, now retired) posted a photo on Twitter / Instagram of himself kissing another guy with the caption "Yes I am gay hahahah" (he is on the left in the photo: [9]) An editor has updated Alguersuari's page to state this as fact [10] but many people seem to be treating it as a joke. Alguersuari is a bon viveur to say the least. I know Twitter and Instagram are poor reference material but I've got nothing else to go on – it doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere else yet. Should we wait for a proper interview or something? What's the form regarding self-published stuff like this on social media? Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:33, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
- I'll be brutally honest and say that I haven't seen anyone take it as a joke, leading me to believe it is cast-iron fact. Considering that the source comes from Alguersuari himself, this makes it more credible than a secondary source in my honest opinion. Spa-Franks (talk) 16:49, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
- There are plenty of comments on that Instagram post suggesting it's a joke. That's the problem with this kind of source. You seem easily convinced. Bretonbanquet (talk) 16:58, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
- EDIT CONFLICT: Wikipedia has a policy specifically for things like this, WP:TWITTER. If this is Alguersuari's official account, then it is RS for things that he says about himself. However, it sounds like you're not sure if people have been interpreting what he said in the caption correctly, that you can't tell if he was kidding or not. For that, I would say yes, wait for corroboration. Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:58, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, that's basically what it comes down to. I can't tell if he's joking or not, although Spa-Franks is convinced. Someone saying he's gay followed by a big "hahahahaha" doesn't seem like a very serious declaration to me. Bretonbanquet (talk) 17:12, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
In normal usage, "hahaha" indicates that one ought not take the prior statement with any credulity at all. Collect (talk) 17:15, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
- "hahahah" indicates he is laughing, therefore his tweet was implied to be a joke. This information should not be added to the BLP until/unless it is reported by an independent reliable source. Meatsgains (talk) 18:57, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
- Also, this source notes "the Formula One driver might not be gay after all." Meatsgains (talk) 19:00, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
-
- Thanks for your input, everyone. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:21, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Library of Congress
I have been using LCCN entries for people as sources for their birthdates for a little while now, assuming it was reliable. But now, when I was looking up Chuck Cleaver's entry on there [11] to see if his birthdate was listed there, I noticed that one phrase, sourced to "Wikipedia website", appears in his LCCN entry, leading me to suspect that LCCN entries are not reliable sources, at least not for BLPs. I would like to know what others think. Everymorning (talk) 01:09, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
Mr. Freeze
Was the character created for the TV show and loosely based on an obscure one-off comic villain, or created for the comic and renamed/popularized by the TV show?
The line between these two is extremely blurry, there is a dispute between me and User:Darkknight2149 over how our article should be worded on this point. A problem is that the majority of sources that discuss the problem in detail can be interpreted either way. No "full history" of the character can completely neglect either the fact that a similar character first appeared in the comics in 1959 or the fact that said character was essentially a one-off until the TV show renamed and popularized him. Thus, Darkknight2149 and I have interpreted this source differently. A lot of sources are also written "semi-in-universe": within the universe of the comics "Mr. Zero" and "Mr. Freeze" were later determined to be the same person. So a lot of sources simply say "the character first appeared in 1959". It is my view that sources saying the character first appeared in 1959 cannot be used for the claim that the character was not created for the TV show and loosely based on a one-off villain from the comics, because they are taking the in-universe retcon that the two are the same person as a matter of fact.
In my opinion, the only source already cited that explicitly states one way or the other is this Escapist video, which says the TV show created Mr. Freeze, loosely basing him on an obscure character with a different name. Darkknight2149 appears to be of the opinion that a source saying the character first appeared in 1959 under the name "Mr. Zero" is adequate to dismiss the assertion that the character was created for the TV show.
I proposed that we say the sources are divided on the issue, with some saying the character first appeared in the comics in 1959, and others saying the character who appeared in 1959 was a loose inspiration for the character who was largely created for the TV show. I am not yet sure what Darkknight2149's opinion on this proposal is.
Sorry to post this on RSN, but since the sources (or lack thereof) are the problem here, in that they can almost all be interpreted either way, I thought it reasonable. It's my opinion that taking a source that says "First appearance: 1959" to reject the claim in a reliable source that the character was created for the TV show is borderline OR, but posting this on ORN would have been a worse option.
Any thoughts?
Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:03, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
- Based solely on what you're saying here, saying that the sources are split on whether this is one character or two etc. seems like the way to go. However, if you need more direct options for help, why not post a request for more voices at the talk page for Wikiproject Comics? That may be a good place to get editors with the expertise you need. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:02, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
- EDIT: Okay, I took a closer look at your conversation and the sources that DK offered and I think I know something that might help. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:09, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
The nature of Nippon.com
I can't quite get a handle on the nature of the nippon.com website. It clearly isn't a conventional news site nor is it merely a blog as it has an editorial board.[1] The website does not appear to be an online extension of a dead tree magazine or journal either.
The page/article/editorial (what is it?) that I'm using as a source[2] is written by an apparently reputable academic, so it's reliability per se seems established. I'm trying to figure out how to properly cite it - none of "cite news/editorial/blog" appear to me to be a comfortable fit. Help! Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 10:34, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
- You could ask user:Hijiri88, who is in Japan and usually well informed on such things. Guy (Help!) 11:17, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
Sources at NamePros
There is some difference of opinion regarding the reliability of sources for this article per WP:BLOGS. Can visitors to this noticeboard please comment on whether or not the following websites are considered as reliable sources for the history, desciption and services of the domain forum, NamePros?
- DomainerIncome.com
- From the About page of the website it appears to be the work of one person.[12] However they do accept advertising.[13]
- At present the DomainerIncome.com site is used to ID the founder, founding date of the forum and to support this text:
- "NamePros started to see success around June, 2003, four months after its launch. Ron James dismissed the idea of adopting a subscription business model, favoring free services."
- DomainGang.com
- There is no indication on the About page that the site has any editorial staff [14]
- This page [15] is being used to support this text:
- "Bodis, a domain parking company, acquired NamePros in January, 2012. Speculation circulating around blogs and other communities point to a sale price in the range of $200,000 to $300,000 USD. Rumors of the sale began as early as January 11. By January 19, Matt Wegrzyn, owner of Bodis, had publicly confirmed the acquisition. Matt Wegrzyn hinted that improvements to the website and its services would follow and stated that Bodis continue to keep NamePros an open community. Former owner Ron James noted that Bodis had better resources and would be capable of supporting NamePros' continued growth."
Any comments or insights? Thanks!-- — Keithbob • Talk • 21:19, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
- Keithbob and I are currently in disagreement over the usability of these sources, so again, feedback/additional insight would be appreciated. My counter-argument is that they are reputable news sites within the relevant industry, and the authors are well-respected. Both have played key roles in the distribution of informational content within the domain name investing community. While there's no guarantee they're edited by a third party, articles written by specialists and experts are still reasonable sources of reliable information, provided discretion and common sense are used. The corollary to this is that an edited article is not guaranteed to be a reliable source of information, and the formal publishing of a claim does not make it an indisputable fact. —Zenexer [talk] 20:28, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
-
- Per WP:BLOGS, part of WP:VERIFY: "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. ([in <ref> tag] Please do note that any exceptional claim would require exceptional sources.)" —Zenexer [talk] 20:49, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
The Coast
The Coast is a weekly publication in Halifax, Nova Scotia. Is this article suitable to support the following claim on the Frankie MacDonald page:
In 2016 CTV Atlantic meteorologist Cindy Day made online comments perceived by some to be insulting towards MacDonald and a Change.org petition was launched demanding that she be fired.
- The source is reliable but the issue here seems to be giving WP:UNDUE weight to an otherwise insignificant comment made by Cindy Day. Meatsgains (talk) 04:01, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
Source does not include Mike Singletary
At the time of his retirement, Sapp was one of only six defensive players in NFL history to make the Pro Bowl, be named Defensive Player of the Year and win a Super Bowl or pre-Super-Bowl NFL title. The others are Mean Joe Greene, Jack Lambert, Lester Hayes, Lawrence Taylor, Bob Sanders, Reggie White, Ed Reed, Ray Lewis and Sapp's former teammate, Derrick Brooks.
Sources written in the future tense cited for past claims
This is more of a general question, but I've noticed a lot of articles with this problem. The "Ireland" source in Star Wars sequel trilogy was my immediate impetus so ... if a source written last summer says filming "will take place this week", can we use it after the fact to state that filming took place that week? I ask not because I think it didn't (I have no reason to think so) but because a strict interpretation of WP:V would mean that technically such a source is only valid for the claim "it was reported that filming would take place that week". In some cases I'm sure our citation of a source has been "updated" thusly when something had gone wrong and the source's prediction had not come true, in which cases our information is neither true nor verifiable. But even in this benign example, the information is not directly supported by the source although probably true. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:30, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
James Sears circulation claims
There is an ongoing problem at James Sears regarding the claimed circulation of a newsletter, Your Ward News, for which Sears claims to be "editor-in-chief". In a Toronto Star article ([17]) dated 16 May 2015, the newsletter's publisher (Leroy St. Germaine) is quoted claiming a circulation of "about 50,000 copies"; the article on Sears was created not long after that story appeared. Around November an IP (and then several others) began changing 50,000 to 77,000 supposedly based on a claim in Your Ward News, which I believe is an entirely unreliable source for this claim. Sears is fairly well known locally for making highly exaggerated claims about himself, and feeding off controversy in order to promote his pick-up artist business. I don't keep the copies of Your Ward News that some unfortunate postal worker is forced to leave in my mailbox, but there are archived online versions, and from those we can see that the paper's circulation claims have steadily increased since the controversy started with Canada Post over whether the newsletter could be circulated at all: (links to newsletter NSFW)
- as of 9 Feb 2015: does not publish circulation claim
- as of 16 May 2015 (Toronto Star article): claims circulation of "about 50,000"
- as of 30 May 2015: claims circulation of 48,000
- as of 16 Feb 2016: claims circulation of 77,000
- as of today: claims circulation of 300,000
- just as a note, there are 25,255 households in Toronto's ward 32, the paper's claimed circulation area, as of the 2011 Census: [18]
Based on all of this, what claims can be considered reliably sourced? In my opinion 50,000 is as accurate as we can be (the Toronto Star source) however I have a small army of IPs disagreeing with me. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 16:09, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
- You're right, the newsletter is not a RS for its own circulation (or for anything, really). Even with the star article, emphasis should be placed on the fact that this is their claimed circulation - pretty much anything these guys say should be taken with a grain of salt. Fyddlestix (talk) 16:26, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
- Oh yes, I should have said that our text says "[t]he publication, which claims to have a circulation of 50,000, has been criticized ..." which is sourced to the Star piece. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 19:15, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
Award recomendation quoted in memoirs
There is firmly established by the the totality of reliable sources that a certain military person was bestowed the nation's highest military honour 20 yrs after the war for the sum of the person's military achievements. According to the memoirs of the said person the reason for recognition to be so late was that in the recomendation for the award, written by the person's command during the war, the person in question had been cited as killed in action, but indeed the person had survived and had been captured by enemy (beeing POW untill the end of the war) and, without "heroic death" the sum of feats was considered lesser, so the person was bestowed a lesser award immediately after the war, but 20 yrs later the government changed it's mind. This explanation is confirmed by one (more or less) independent source. Now in the memoirs the person quots (directly) the excerpt from the original award recommendation, which enumerates the feats. At least one of them is confirmed by many independent sources. Some are, essentialy, trifling. One of achievements is, in my opinion, deserve to be mentioned in WP, but the only source known to me is the said quotation in the person's memoirs - thus a not independent source. On the other hand, false quotation of the award recomendation is quite a disgraceful thing, the one, that, in my opinion, should not be supposed for a decorated warrior without a due reason. The deed is, though, to some extent, outstanding, by no means extraordinary (actually, in comparison to other recipients of the award, even the sum of the feats of the person in question fits the award but barely, if at all). What are opinions on the matter? Эйхер (talk) 11:23, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
Journal of the American Nutraceutical Association
Is the Journal of the American Nutraceutical Association a reliable source for medical information? Specifically, I came across this journal used as a reference in SierraSil, an article that appears to be promotional in nature, relying on authorative-sounding sources and celebrity endorsements to promote the effectiveness of this supplement. Journal of the American Nutraceutical Association is actually referenced three times to three separate articles by the same authors, who I would not be surprised to have a connection to the company making the product. Deli nk (talk) 13:36, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
- No. [19] At best it gives "a good avenue for science-based, smaller sample studies of the “pilot” or “pre-mainstream variety.” " Which is less than we require for any use of sources making actual medical claims. The Journal has ads from "nutraceutical" manufacturers, which is also a problem. That said, if it runs studies by persons noted in the field, and such use is done conservatively, noting the limitations of small studies, I can imagine cases where such a study might be relevant to a Wikipedia article, but only on a specific case basis. Collect (talk) 19:07, 3 March 2016 (UTC)
Mirror.co.uk
I would like some input here to help vet this so-called source. It looks questionable to me. An new IP user recently cited this article from the Mirror to add content to the Intelligence Support Activity article. Any feedback here would be appreciated. Thanks - theWOLFchild 08:04, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- Low-end English tabloid newspaper. Not a great source and has had notorious low points. If something - other than the mundane - is being added to the encyclopedia and the Mirror is the only source, it's almost certainly not something we want. (This is a general comment made without looking at this specific case). Alexbrn (talk) 12:29, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- A decent enough but Left-leaning tabloid, probably not the right source for this particular edit, due to potential ideological bias. Guy (Help!) 12:38, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
- The actual "facts" are certainly usable - it is the "colourful commentary" on those facts which would be at issue. In the case at hand, the writer has generously used his large supply of paints to limn the facts to make the language used a tad too colourful for use in a Wikipedia article. The remaining fact claim would be "The ISA, sometimes called 'Grey Fox', is an American military and intelligence unit which currently has a mission to attack Al Qaeda, and has been used in the past for other operations, including anti-drug operations." It does not support any name for any project, as the attempted edit asserted. Collect (talk) 14:07, 4 March 2016 (UTC)