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Contents
Customization instructions
To add custom entries, adapt this code, and place it in your common.js:
// Add custom Character Inserter entries
window.charinsertCustom = {
"Insert": ' Mention: {\{u|+}} {\{ping|+}}',
"Wiki markup": ' Mention: {\{u|+}} {\{ping|+}}'
};
that will append the {{u}} and {{ping}} code to the indicated menus.
- Note1: The "+" in those items, is where your cursor will appear after the text is inserted, or if you already have text highlighted when you click them then that text will be properly surrounded by the templates.
- Note2: You can also remove or change the word "Mention:" - anything that is followed by a colon seems to get turned into a heading - Use_underscores_for_multi_word_headings: like so.
- Note3: use a dot ( . ) for any spacing needed in such things as inline css class or id assignments. For example. -- the space needed between the words span and class in
<span.class="plainlinks">+</span>
- Note4: to include a single literal \ use four backslashes ( \\\\ ) (will appear as double-\ on menu display.) E.g.
<math>\\\\scriptstyle{+}</math>
.
Protected edit request on 14 April 2015
I'd like to request additions to the Greek menu: characters with diaereses, macrons, and breves, the letter digamma, iota and upsilon with the non-syllabic diacritic (an inverted breve) under them, and the templates {{lang|grc}}
and {{lang|el}}
, which are used to correctly style Ancient and Modern Greek text. The diaeresis is used in both Modern and Ancient Greek, while macrons, breves, digamma, and the iota and upsilon with a diacritic are used occasionally in Ancient Greek.
The characters
should be added after the last block of the plain Greek alphabet (after Ϝϝυ̯ι̯
) because they're consonants, but rare or historical ones. Characters with diaeresis, Ωω
, should perhaps be added at the end of their respective blocks: iota with diaeresis at the end of the iota block (after Ϊϊΐῒῗ Ϋϋΰῢῧ
) and upsilon with diaeresis at the end of the upsilon block (after Ἷἷ
). I would add the macroned and breved characters Ὗὗ
as a new block at the very end (after ᾹᾱᾸᾰῙῑῘῐῩῡῨῠ
), and ᾯᾧ
as a new block after that.{{lang|el|+}} {{lang|grc|+}}
If my instructions are too hard to understand, here's what the code for the Greek menu should look like:
'Greek': 'ΆάΈέΉήΊίΌόΎύΏώ ΑαΒβΓγΔδ ΕεΖζΗηΘθ ΙιΚκΛλΜμ ΝνΞξΟοΠπ ΡρΣσςΤτΥυ ΦφΧχΨψΩω Ϝϝυ̯ι̯ ᾼᾳᾴᾺὰᾲᾶᾷἈἀᾈᾀἉἁᾉᾁἌἄᾌᾄἊἂᾊᾂἎἆᾎᾆἍἅᾍᾅἋἃᾋᾃἏἇᾏᾇ ῈὲἘἐἙἑἜἔἚἒἝἕἛἓ ῌῃῄῊὴῂῆῇἨἠᾘᾐἩἡᾙᾑἬἤᾜᾔἪἢᾚᾒἮἦᾞᾖἭἥᾝᾕἫἣᾛᾓἯἧᾟᾗ ῚὶῖἸἰἹἱἼἴἺἲἾἶἽἵἻἳἿἷΪϊΐῒῗ ῸὸὈὀὉὁὌὄὊὂὍὅὋὃ ῤῬῥ ῪὺῦὐὙὑὔὒὖὝὕὛὓὟὗΫϋΰῢῧ ῼῳῴῺὼῲῶῷὨὠᾨᾠὩὡᾩᾡὬὤᾬᾤὪὢᾪᾢὮὦᾮᾦὭὥᾭᾥὫὣᾫᾣὯὧᾯᾧ ᾹᾱᾸᾰῙῑῘῐῩῡῨῠ {{lang|el|+}} {{lang|grc|+}}',
Other editors may want to rearrange the order of the letters, but the whole Greek menu needs reorganization, I think. After this edit is done, MediaWiki:Edittools needs to be updated, but I can submit a separate request for that. — Eru·tuon 22:38, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
Protected edit request on 20 August 2015
I'd like to request some changes to the IPA section of MediaWiki:Gadget-charinsert-core.js. (I made dozens of changes when I was admin, which all proved routine.)
The section is currently:
'IPA': 't̪ d̪ ʈɖɟɡɢʡʔ ɸβθðʃʒɕʑʂʐçʝɣχʁħʕʜʢɦ ɱɳɲŋɴ ʋɹɻɰ ʙⱱʀɾɽ ɫɬɮɺɭʎʟ ʍɥɧ ʼ ɓɗʄɠʛ ʘǀǃǂǁ ɨʉɯ ɪʏʊ øɘɵɤ ə ɚ ɛœɜɝɞʌɔ æ ɐɶɑɒ ʰʱʷᶣʲˠˤˀ ᵊ k̚ ⁿˡ ˈˌːˑ t̪ d̪ s̺ s̻ θ̼ s̬ n̥ ŋ̊ a̤ a̰ β̞ ˕ r̝ ˔ e̘ e̙ u̟ i̠ ɪ̈ e̽ ɔ̹ ɔ̜ n̩ ə̆ ə̯ ə̃ ȷ̃ ɫ z̴ ə̋ ə́ ə̄ ə̀ ə̏ ə̌ ə̂ ə᷄ ə᷅ ə᷇ ə᷆ ə᷈ ə᷉ t͡ʃ d͡ʒ t͜ɬ ‿ ˥ ˦ ˧ ˨ ˩ ꜛ ꜜ | ‖ ↗ ↘ k͈ s͎ {\{IPA|+}}',
Please change it to:
'IPA': 't̪ d̪ t͡ʃ d͡ʒ ʈɖɟɡɢʡʔ ɸβθðʃʒɕʑʂʐçʝɣχʁħʕʜʢɦ ɱɳɲŋɴ β̞ ʋɹɻɰ ʙⱱɾɽʀ ɫɬɮɺɭʎʟ ʍɥɧ ʼ ɓɗʄɠʛ ʘǀǃǂǁᶢᵑ ɨʉɯ ɪʏʊ øɘɵɤ əɚ ɛœɜɝɞʌɔ æɐ ɶɑɒ ʰʱʷᶣᵝʲˠˤˀ ᵊ ◌̚ ⁿ ˡ ˈˌːˑ ◌̪ ◌̺ ◌̻ ◌̼ ◌̬ ◌̥ ◌̊ ◌̞ ˕ ◌̝ ˔ ◌̘ ◌̙ ◌̽ ◌̟ ◌̠ ◌̈ ◌̤ ◌̹ ◌̜ ◌̩ ◌̆ ◌̯ ◌̃ ◌̰ ȷ̃ ◌̋ ◌́ ◌̄ ◌̀ ◌̏ ◌̌ ◌̂ ◌᷄ ◌᷅ ◌᷇ ◌᷆ ◌᷈ ◌᷉ ◌͡ ◌͜ ‿ ˥ ˦ ˧ ˨ ˩ ꜛ ꜜ | ‖ ↗ ↘ ◌͈ ◌͉ ◌͎ ◌̣ ◌͊ ◌᷽ ◌̫ ◌͇ ˭ {\{IPA|+}} {\{angle bracket|+}}',
Explanation:
- The bulk of the change: except for a few preset combos mixed in with the consonants, change all diacritic-carrying letters to ◌. I am the one who added carrying letters because the Wiki software was unable to handle bare diacritics. (You might want to check if this is still true. If bare diacritics are now supported, by all means take that route. Just deleted all ◌ from the above. It would be easier for users.) If a carrier is still needed, use the default holder ◌ instead of letters of the alphabet. Currently trying to get the diacritic off the carrying letter and onto the letter you want is a pain. ◌ will be easier, because it can be put in the find & replace box under Advanced editing and removed, leaving the diacritic on the desired letter. The three strings to sub with ◌ (with a couple rearrangements to keep similar-looking diacritics together) are:
- k̚ --> ◌̚
- t̪ d̪ s̺ ... t͡ʃ d͡ʒ t͜ɬ ‿ --> ◌̪ ◌̺ ◌̻ ◌̼ ◌̬ ◌̥ ◌̊ ◌̞ ˕ ◌̝ ˔ ◌̘ ◌̙ ◌̽ ◌̟ ◌̠ ◌̈ ◌̤ ◌̹ ◌̜ ◌̩ ◌̆ ◌̯ ◌̃ ◌̴ ◌̰ ◌̋ ◌́ ◌̄ ◌̀ ◌̏ ◌̌ ◌̂ ◌᷄ ◌᷅ ◌᷇ ◌᷆ ◌᷈ ◌᷉ ◌͡ ◌͜ ‿
- k͈ s͎ --> ◌͈ ◌͎
- ⁿˡ are adjacent, and they need a space between them to display separately from each other.
ȷ̃ ɫ should be removed. The first (based on a dotless j) was a hack from the days when IPA fonts didn't handle this well, but now Gentium handles it properly with a normal j, which is how it should be. (This is a rare sound anyway.) The second is redundant with both the preceding el section and the subsequent diacritic.
-
- (Given the comments below, putting them back, instead removing the redundant ɫ in the laterals to avoid confusion with the similar-looking ɬ, something that IPA-newbies do a lot.)
- ʙⱱʀɾɽ should be changed to the order of the IPA chart, ʙⱱɾɽʀ.
- t̪ d̪ are listed twice. If the sub with ◌ is rejected, I'd replace the second set (before s̺) with the single letter n̪.
- If the sub with ◌ is accepted, t͡ʃ d͡ʒ should be added to the beginning of the string, just after t̪ d̪: t̪ d̪ ʈɖɟɡɢʡʔ > t̪ d̪ t͡ʃ d͡ʒ ʈɖɟɡɢʡʔ. (Check that they don't fuse with adjacent letters in the edit box; they may need to be spaced to keep them separate. t̪ d̪ t͡ʃ d͡ʒ are all pretty common, and other editors have evidently decided they're worth listing separately.
- If the sub with ◌ is accepted, a β̞ should be added to the approximant range: β̞ ʋɹɻɰ. (Spacing probably necessary.)
- Add ᵑ ᶢ for clicks and ᵝ for Japanese and Swedish vowels.
- Add some of the more common ExtIPA diacritics to the two we already have (at the end): ◌͇ ◌͉ ◌͊ ˭
- Add {\{angle bracket|+}} so users don't need to switch edit windows.
— kwami (talk) 18:32, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
- but now Gentium handles it properly... Why do you mention Gentium, asuming less then 0.1% of editors actually have this font installed?
-- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}}
19:30, 20 August 2015 (UTC)- Most of our articles now use a tilde over j, and I haven't heard any complaints. It was something I added back when IPA fonts didn't handle that properly. Now at least some of them do. Readers who don't have Gentium or an equivalent font most likely won't see proper IPA anyway. But leave it in if you like. I can change that part of the request if you object to it. — kwami (talk) 20:11, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
- I'd rather you not rely on any specific font. Untimately, it is the reader who needs to see them.
-- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}}
20:50, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
- I'd rather you not rely on any specific font. Untimately, it is the reader who needs to see them.
- @JorisvS:, @Erutuon:, @Peter238: -- would any of you have problems with the proposed change? For a long time I used a Dvorak IPA keyboard and didn't need to worry about edittools, but now that I'm using them, I'm finding the IPA section to be a pain in the ass. — kwami (talk) 20:48, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
- I assume what you meant is the clickable list of IPA symbols above the text field? I always use [1] anyway, so I don't think any change to that would be an issue for me. Peter238 (talk) 20:55, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
- As long as you don't need to transcribe tone!
- Actually, the list of IPA below the text field.
- I was thinking that since you use the IPA so much here you might catch any mistakes or omissions. — kwami (talk) 21:06, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
- That's interesting, because in my case, it has always been placed above the text field, rather than below it.
- The list looks ok, but what's up with removing ⟨ɫ⟩? The combined variant ⟨l̴⟩ doesn't always look right (it certainly doesn't in case of my browser - the tilde is screwed up). Peter238 (talk) 21:16, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
- I assume what you meant is the clickable list of IPA symbols above the text field? I always use [1] anyway, so I don't think any change to that would be an issue for me. Peter238 (talk) 20:55, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
- Most of our articles now use a tilde over j, and I haven't heard any complaints. It was something I added back when IPA fonts didn't handle that properly. Now at least some of them do. Readers who don't have Gentium or an equivalent font most likely won't see proper IPA anyway. But leave it in if you like. I can change that part of the request if you object to it. — kwami (talk) 20:11, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
-
-
- kwami: Thanks for pinging me. I don't have a problem with any of your changes, and you can go ahead with them as far as I'm concerned. I've never been sure why diacritics were put on particular symbols, so it makes sense to put them on the default diacritic holder, unless there's a reason not to. If anyone's doing a lot of transcription with particular diacriticked symbols, that would be a reason to add them to the IPA menu, but as far as I know, no language has a lot of schwas with tone contours on them.
-
-
-
- Not disagreeing with your proposal, but thinking of a further improvement: perhaps symbols could be organized by shape rather than by articulatory features. For instance, all symbols like s could be grouped together (ʃʂʂ), symbols like h (ħʜɦɧɥ), symbols like epsilon (ɛɜɝ), symbols like e (ɘəɚɚ), and so on. This would seem haphazard to linguists like us, but might be helpful for ordinary people typing transcriptions, people who haven't yet learned the articulatory features associated with the symbols. That sort of thing is basically already done with the implosive consonants ɓɗʄɠʛ, though only incidentally since they share a manner of articulation. I wonder if that would make the edit box useless for us linguists, though... — Eru·tuon 22:00, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
- I think the main argument against that is that people would run a risk of mixing up similar-looking letters, like ɤ for ɣ or ɵ for θ. The people who would benefit by having them together are exactly the people who would confuse them. By having the former in with the vowels and the latter in with the consonants, there's less possibility of confusion.
- Anyway, IMO that should be a separate proposal if people agree it's something we should do. — kwami (talk) 22:44, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
- Yeah, it's a different proposal, and we don't need to get sidetracked. However, in response to your point, I wouldn't propose mixing consonants and vowels, and with consonants and vowels separate, ɤ and ɣ, and ɵ and θ, wouldn't be confused. Confusion of ø and ɵ, and ə and ɘ (and so on), would be possible, though. — Eru·tuon 01:16, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
- That's IPA's fault, not ours. Peter238 (talk) 01:18, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
- The current order reflects the IPA charts, and presumably anyone using this edittool has seen and has access to an IPA chart. In order to make it clearer, we could add the basic-ISO Latin letters, even though no-one would ever need to use them. E.g. ɨ ʉ ɯ --> i y ɨ ʉ ɯ u. But that would also be a separate discussion. — kwami (talk) 01:25, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
- Yeah, it's a different proposal, and we don't need to get sidetracked. However, in response to your point, I wouldn't propose mixing consonants and vowels, and with consonants and vowels separate, ɤ and ɣ, and ɵ and θ, wouldn't be confused. Confusion of ø and ɵ, and ə and ɘ (and so on), would be possible, though. — Eru·tuon 01:16, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
- Not disagreeing with your proposal, but thinking of a further improvement: perhaps symbols could be organized by shape rather than by articulatory features. For instance, all symbols like s could be grouped together (ʃʂʂ), symbols like h (ħʜɦɧɥ), symbols like epsilon (ɛɜɝ), symbols like e (ɘəɚɚ), and so on. This would seem haphazard to linguists like us, but might be helpful for ordinary people typing transcriptions, people who haven't yet learned the articulatory features associated with the symbols. That sort of thing is basically already done with the implosive consonants ɓɗʄɠʛ, though only incidentally since they share a manner of articulation. I wonder if that would make the edit box useless for us linguists, though... — Eru·tuon 22:00, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
-
Break
@Edokter:. Hi. Addressed your concern, and another minor one; the rest of the discussion is about what additional changes we might want to make. — kwami (talk) 21:00, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, no matter what I try, I cannot get the carrier characters to work; every time I try to delete them, the diacritic disappears as well (they are tied after all). That makes them unusable. I also can't figure out how to copy the above block without the carriers (same problem). Perhaps it's not MediaWiki taht is the problem, but the characters themselves...?
-- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}}
21:38, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
-
- @Edokter: Deleting the carrier ◌ in ◌̬ shouldn't be any more difficult than than deleting the carrier s in s̬. You can't delete either with just the backspace key. The easiest way is probably by entering the carrier in 'search and replace'. It's difficult to do that with the current version, because there are 17 different carrier letters, which means potentially 17 runs of search & replace, and because the carrier letters also appear in normal text, you can't just hit 'replace all'. I've done it: it takes much more time than is reasonable. But when the carrier letter is universally ◌, which hardly appears in any article, you can do a single 'replace all' to fix all the diacritics in an entire article.
- I think by definition we need to say it's a MediaWiki problem. These are standard Unicode combining diacritics. If MediaWiki can't handle Unicode, then it's seriously deficient. But we do have a workaround with search and replace.
- Suggestion Maybe we should add some plain text after the IPA symbols advising users to use 'search and replace' to get rid of the diacritic carriers?
- When I first added these diacritics, I was running software that enabled me to simply backspace out the carrier letter. I've since discovered that most people don't have it so easy. — kwami (talk) 22:44, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
- Are all these diacritics needed in the IPA menu? Or do you list every one, even if they are not needed? I though the only diacritics listed are the combined ones used for IPA symbols.
-- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}}
07:38, 23 August 2015 (UTC)- I use practically all of them, and I'm sure others do. Or at least we can't predict which ones individual people will need. I suppose we could omit ◌̴ [removed form request], which doesn't have good font support. The ExtIPA diacritics are ones that I use or have seen in our articles. Other people might want to add more, but that can wait for a specific request.
- I don't understand what you mean by "I though the only diacritics listed are the combined ones used for IPA symbols." — kwami (talk) 16:11, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- What I mean is: this is the section for IPA characters. I cannot imagine that every diacritic is needed for this. You should not try to include every possible character; that is not what edittools is for. It is there to provide a subset, ie. the most common used characters. And it should definitely not require the use of tools like search&replace to use this feature. If you cannot provide a solution that simply works with point-and-click, then this change is not going to happen.
-- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}}
16:29, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- What I mean is: this is the section for IPA characters. I cannot imagine that every diacritic is needed for this. You should not try to include every possible character; that is not what edittools is for. It is there to provide a subset, ie. the most common used characters. And it should definitely not require the use of tools like search&replace to use this feature. If you cannot provide a solution that simply works with point-and-click, then this change is not going to happen.
- Are all these diacritics needed in the IPA menu? Or do you list every one, even if they are not needed? I though the only diacritics listed are the combined ones used for IPA symbols.
-
-
-
-
-
- @Edokter: I don't understand. Your first objection has nothing to do with this request: These characters have been in edittools for years. And your second objection is spurious: I'm suggesting a work-around to ameliorate the defective Mediawiki coding, but the coding is just as defective with nothing done. You seem to be saying that if we can't fix Mediawiki, you won't allow any improvements to edittools. Well, can you fix the code? If not, at least stop blocking improvements designed to compensate.
- And please stop changing the template to say this request has been answered when it hasn't been. — kwami (talk) 23:03, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
- Please stop abusing the edit protected template; the template is only ment to call admins to perform uncontroversial edits, not as a call for discussion. The request can't be answered until the code is ready to go in. You already have my attention anyway, so why do you insist pining other admins with the template?
-- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}}
15:24, 24 August 2015 (UTC)- You answered your own question: the request can't be answered, yet you kept marking it answered. I wasn't pinging anyone in particular, I just didn't want this closed and forgotten. — kwami (talk) 18:28, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- The edit protected template is ment only to ping admins to perform an uncontroversial edit. As this is still under discussion, the template should not be used. Please review Wikipedia:Edit requests and Template:Edit fully-protected for future reference.
-- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}}
21:42, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- The edit protected template is ment only to ping admins to perform an uncontroversial edit. As this is still under discussion, the template should not be used. Please review Wikipedia:Edit requests and Template:Edit fully-protected for future reference.
- You answered your own question: the request can't be answered, yet you kept marking it answered. I wasn't pinging anyone in particular, I just didn't want this closed and forgotten. — kwami (talk) 18:28, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- Please stop abusing the edit protected template; the template is only ment to call admins to perform uncontroversial edits, not as a call for discussion. The request can't be answered until the code is ready to go in. You already have my attention anyway, so why do you insist pining other admins with the template?
- @Edokter: I'll just second what kwami says: all the IPA diacritics should be included, at least initially. They all have a use in phonetically transcribing sounds. Some are less commonly used than others, and perhaps some could be eliminated from the menu, but there has to be discussion on which ones, if any, don't need to be included.
-
- [I removed the swash as it is poorly supported by fonts--K]
-
- I also think you misunderstood what kwami said. There were two options: include diacritics with the standard carrier character, or without the carrier if MediaWiki allows it. It sounds like MediaWiki doesn't allow it, so the carrier character has to be used. If I'm wrong about there being a misunderstanding, my apologies. — Eru·tuon 01:48, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
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-
-
-
Edokter, here is the menu without any carrier letters. You can try it and see if it works now. (It didn't a few years ago.)
'IPA': 't̪ d̪ t͡ʃ d͡ʒ ʈɖɟɡɢʡʔ ɸβθðʃʒɕʑʂʐçʝɣχʁħʕʜʢɦ ɱɳɲŋɴ β̞ ʋɹɻɰ ʙⱱɾɽʀ ɫɬɮɺɭʎʟ ʍɥɧ ʼ ɓɗʄɠʛ ʘǀǃǂǁᶢᵑ ɨʉɯ ɪʏʊ øɘɵɤ əɚ ɛœɜɝɞʌɔ æɐ ɶɑɒ ʰʱʷᶣᵝʲˠˤˀ ᵊ ̚ ⁿ ˡ ˈˌːˑ ̪ ̺ ̻ ̼ ̬ ̥ ̊ ̞ ˕ ̝ ˔ ̘ ̙ ̽ ̟ ̠ ̈ ̤ ̹ ̜ ̩ ̆ ̯ ̃ ̰ ȷ̃ ̋ ́ ̄ ̀ ̏ ̌ ̂ ᷄ ᷅ ᷇ ᷆ ᷈ ᷉ ͡ ͜ ‿ ˥ ˦ ˧ ˨ ˩ ꜛ ꜜ | ‖ ↗ ↘ ͈ ͉ ͎ ̣ ͊ ᷽ ̫ ͇ ˭ {\{IPA|+}} {\{angle bracket|+}}',
— kwami (talk) 05:18, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- I will try tonight (at home).
-- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}}
10:54, 24 August 2015 (UTC)- Now live at test wiki. The stand-alone diacritics seem to work. Please test there as well; it it works for you, The code can be copied here.
-- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}}
15:24, 24 August 2015 (UTC)- How do I test it? There aren't any edittools on the test wiki. — kwami (talk) 18:28, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- There should be. You probably have the (default) gadget disabled (labeled "<gadget-charinsert>").
-- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}}
21:42, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- There should be. You probably have the (default) gadget disabled (labeled "<gadget-charinsert>").
- How do I test it? There aren't any edittools on the test wiki. — kwami (talk) 18:28, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
- Now live at test wiki. The stand-alone diacritics seem to work. Please test there as well; it it works for you, The code can be copied here.
@Edokter: Yeah, that works great! A couple fixes: əɚ and æɐ get glommed together, {{angle bracket|}} is broken up, and some of the tone marks appear over the wrong cell, but those are easy to fix. This should work:
'IPA': 't̪ d̪ ʈɖɟɡɢʡʔ ɸβθðʃʒɕʑʂʐçʝɣχʁħʕʜʢɦ ɱɳɲŋɴ ʋɹɻɰ ʙⱱɾɽʀ ɫɬɮɺɭʎʟ ʍɥɧ ʼ ɓɗʄɠʛ ʘǀǃǂǁᶢᵑ ɨʉɯ ɪʏʊ øɘɵɤ ə ɚ ɛœɜɝɞʌɔ æ ɐ ɶɑɒ ʰʱʷᶣᵝʲˠˤˀ ᵊ ̚ ⁿ ˡ ˈˌːˑ ̪ ̺ ̻ ̼ ̬ ̥ ̊ ̞ ˕ ̝ ˔ ̘ ̙ ̽ ̟ ̠ ̈ ̤ ̹ ̜ ̩ ̆ ̯ ̃ ̰ ̋ ́ ̄ ̀ ̏ ̌ ̂ ᷄ ᷅ ᷇ ᷆ ᷈ ᷉ ͡ ͜ ‿ ˥ ˦ ˧ ˨ ˩ ꜛ ꜜ | ‖ ↗ ↘ ͈ ͉ ͎ ̣ ͊ ᷽ ̫ ͇ ˭ {\{IPA|+}} {\{angbr|+}}',
I removed the t͡ʃ, d͡ʒ I had added at the beginning because those are easier to compose now that we don't have carrier letters. — kwami (talk) 00:12, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
- Updated on testwiki. Angle bracket fixed (and put IPA template behind it).
-- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}}
16:27, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
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- Seems to work, but a bit odd. In ä, the new tools place the diaerisis lower than the current ones do, and the results look different on the test page, but when I copy them over here they look the same. Here we have correcting software that may be compensating. — kwami (talk) 18:52, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
- Testing further, e.g. w c̈ j̈ (entered there and copied here) vs c̈ j̈ (entered here), I can't detect any difference, so we should be good to go. — kwami (talk) 18:57, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
- I think the difference comes from different fonts, or just size. I'll cop[y it over. I'll also increase the padding a bit; some characters fall outside the 'buttons' as discritis have zero width, and the padding remains the only clickable area. I will make the cchange now.
-- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}}
20:04, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
- I think the difference comes from different fonts, or just size. I'll cop[y it over. I'll also increase the padding a bit; some characters fall outside the 'buttons' as discritis have zero width, and the padding remains the only clickable area. I will make the cchange now.
Implemented
- @Edokter: Thanks! The padding is much easier to click on now.
- Aside: The problem wasn't font or size. I don't know what it was, but it seems ok now. I subbed w unicoding and it makes no difference when the page is saved. (Something similar just happened: the acute accent produced the wrong diacritic in my sandbox, and find/replace didn't recognize it when I searched for the correct diacritic, but when I pasted an example here, it came out correct. Perhaps the issue is within the font, because it disappears in my sandbox when I change the adjacent letters.)
- But one problem inherited from the old version: the pipe. This is simply the vertical bar on the keyboard (UCS code 007C). As such, we don't really need it here. On the other hand, it causes problems with the IPA template, which should normally always be used when writing in IPA. (Some browsers aren't smart enough to pick an IPA font otherwise, or will mix IPA with other fonts, which looks terrible.) Perhaps you could replace "|" with {{!}} so editors can use it without it causing problems when embedded inside {{IPA}}? That is,
ꜛ ꜜ | ‖
- might be usefully replaced with
ꜛ ꜜ {\{!}} ‖
- We seem to have lost an important diacritic somewhere along the way: ⟨˞⟩ for rhotic vowels. (We have precomposed ɚ ɝ, but there are other rhotic vowels just in English.) That should probably go after the vowels,
...ɑɒ
- to
...ɑɒ ˞
- I added the ˞ . I don't want to replace the pipe. While {{!}} is ment for use in template, it is not ment for use outside templates.
-- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}}
19:44, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
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- @Edokter: Could you remove it altogether then? If people use it and it screws up the display of their transcription, they're likely to get confused. And a simple pipe isn't needed, since we've omitted all other ASCII symbols. — kwami (talk) 22:31, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
- Makes sense.
-- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}}
10:59, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
- Makes sense.
- @Edokter: Could you remove it altogether then? If people use it and it screws up the display of their transcription, they're likely to get confused. And a simple pipe isn't needed, since we've omitted all other ASCII symbols. — kwami (talk) 22:31, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
@Edokter: In the discussion below, Jorisv asked if the diacritics could be larger for legibility. I assume he means relative to the letters, with those kept the same user-specified size. The diacritics can be difficult to read, but making everything big could make the edit tool unwieldy. Is there any way to make just the diacritics larger in the display? — kwami (talk) 20:03, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Request for comment
@Erutuon:, @Peter238:, @TaivoLinguist: does the new format work correctly for you?
Now that we've gotten rid of the carrier letters, making the diacritics easier to use, I'd like your opinion on organizing the IPA edittool into sections. If you go to the Wiki markup edittool (below your edit window), you'll see there are two subsections set off with black unclickable text. Do you think something like that would make the IPA easier to use? I'm thinking:
'IPA': 'consonants: t̪d̪ʈɖɟɡɢʡʔ ɸβθð ʃʒʂʐɕʑ çʝɣχʁ ħʕʜʢɦɧ ɱɳɲŋɴ ʋɹɻɥɰʍ ʙⱱɾɽʀ ɺ ɫɬɮɭʎʟ ɓɗᶑʄɠʛ ʘǀǃǂǁ vowels: ɪʏɨʉɯʊ øɘɵɤ ə ɚ ɛœɜɝɞʌɔ æɶɐɑɒ spacing_diacritics: ʼˀˤᵝᵊᶢˠʰʱʲˡⁿᵑʷᶣ˞ ˈˌːˑ‿˕˔ combining_diacritics: ̚ ̪ ̺ ̻ ̼ ̬ ̥ ̊ ̞ ̝ ̘ ̙ ̽ ̟ ̠ ̈ ̤ ̹ ̜ ̩ ̍ ̆ ̯ ̃ ̰ ͡ ͜ tone_&_prosody: ̋ ́ ̄ ̀ ̏ ̌ ̂ ᷄ ᷅ ᷇ ᷆ ᷈ ᷉ ˥˦˧˨˩ꜛꜜ↗↘‖ extIPA: ͈ ͉ ͎ ̣ ̫ ᷽ ͊ ͇˭ᵻᵿ {\{angle.bracket|+}} {\{IPA|+}} {\{IPA.link|+}}',
We might want to also get rid of the rather useless consonant ɧ and merge the rest of that block, ʍɥ, into the approximants for ʋɹɻɥɰʍ. We could also get rid of the rather useless vowel ɶ and merge æɐɑɒ together. ɧ and ɶ are so rarely used that I doubt it would be a prob for people to copy & paste from the IPA article. Or, if we need ɧ for Swedish, we could put it at the end of the fricatives after ɦ. Both ɦɧ and ʋɹɻɥɰʍ would be sort-of grouped by shape, which Erutuon might like. IMO we should also add ◌̍ to the extIPA section, since it's not uncommon in tone transcription. Do you think it's worthwhile adding {{IPA link}}?
Erutuon, maybe this would address some of your concern above? We've had discussions on how to organize symbols on the IPA help page, and there seem to be some rather intractable difficulties. For example, you grouped ɧ in with h, but I might look for it under ŋ. You also put ɥ in with h, but I would look for it under y. Should ɟ go with j or with f? And where in the world would we put ɣ or θ? Etc. Graphically, ʌ, ɔ and ɯ match up with v, c and m, but that couldn't happen if we keep consonants and vowels separate. I'm not sure we could work it out so that it's more of a help than a hindrance. Presumably anyone using the IPA here has access to an IPA chart, and can hopefully recognize that the letter order is from the chart. That said, the diacritics are grouped by shape as well as by function.
— kwami (talk) 21:56, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
- kwami: I like the addition of "headers". They make the list easier to read, in my opinion.
- I wouldn't get rid of ɧ and ɶ. They're used in the Danish and Swedish IPA help pages, so editors will occasionally need them. They're rarely used, but some of the other IPA symbols in the menu are rare too.
- Regarding the grouping of IPA symbols, perhaps the criterion of similarity and the criterion of articulatory features should be mixed, or, to say it another way, the organization should be a compromise between them. I'm not dogmatic about only using similarity as an organizing principle. So, ɥ could go with approximants, but all the rest of the h-like symbols could go together. As for ɣ and θ, they aren't very similar to other consonant symbols, so they could grouped according to place of articulation.
- I like several of the changes in grouping that you've made. They make symbols easier to find. I'll just propose some further changes to the consonants to show what I'm thinking of.
'consonants: ɸβθð t̪d̪ʈɖ ʃʒɕʑʂʐ ɟɡɢ çʝɣχʁ ʡʔʕʢ ħʜɦɧ ɱɳɲŋɴ ʋɹɻɥɰʍ ʙⱱɾɽʀ ɫɬɮɺɭʎʟ ɓɗʄɠʛ ʘǀǃǂǁ
- Perhaps you'll find this grouping strange. It's a mishmash of shape, place of articulation, and manner of articulation: labial and dental fricatives, coronal stops, coronal fricatives, dorsal stops, dorsal fricatives, question mark symbols, h-symbols, and then the rest is unchanged. And as a nod to you, ɧ is between the h-symbols and the nasals, so you don't have to look far from ŋ to find ɧ.
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- Okay, let's keep ɧ and ɶ then.
- So you interleaved the fricatives and stops for labial, then coronal, then dorsal, but then abandon the pattern with the laryngeals. That really does make the supra-laryngeal consonants easier to find. I do have a concern with the laryngeals, though: with the string ʡʔʕʢ, and to a lesser extent with ħʜɦɧ, I would get confused as to which letter is which. Epiglottals and pharyngeals are so rare in the languages I usually deal with that I have trouble remembering which letters they take. I suspect that lumping especially ʡʔʕʢ together could result in a lot of mistranscriptions. It doesn't help that the official IPA chart doesn't even include the epiglottals in with the pulmonic consonants. (Which might be just as well, since they may be better characterized as trills than as fricatives. Moving them to the trill section would solve my tendency to mix them up, but might confuse others.)
- BTW, the placement of the flap ɺ in with the laterals had been bugging me. Your motivation for ɧ made me realize ɺ would be better placed between the flaps and the laterals. (Also the alveolo-palatals were slightly misplaced.)
- I would do s.t. more like this:
'consonants: ɸβθð t̪d̪ʈɖ ʃʒʂʐɕʑ ɟɡɢ çʝɣχʁ ʡʔ ħʕʜʢɦɧ ɱɳɲŋɴ ʋɹɻɥɰʍ ʙⱱɾɽʀ ɺ ɫɬɮɭʎʟ ɓɗʄɠʛ ʘǀǃǂǁ
-
- or maybe
'consonants: ɸβθð t̪d̪ʈɖ ʃʒʂʐɕʑ ɟɡɢ çʝɣχʁ ʡʔ ħʕɦɧ ɱɳɲŋɴ ʋɹɻɥɰʍ ʙⱱɾɽʀʜʢ ɺ ɫɬɮɭʎʟ ɓɗʄɠʛ ʘǀǃǂǁ
-
- I know that disrupts the pattern you're going for, but I would need s.t. like that to keep track of them.
- Also, do we want to keep t̪d̪? The dental diacritic is now so easy to use that we don't really need them, but on the other hand it might be nice to retain their precomposed forms so that people don't mistakenly use the apical diacritic.
- — kwami (talk) 22:03, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
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- I agree that the "throat sounds" are confusing, and my arrangement of them doesn't really help. ħʕʔ are familiar to me because they're used in Arabic, but the epiglottals ʡʜʢ are a blur. I vote for your first suggestion, because separating the epiglottal trills from the rest of the laryngeals would confuse me. The arrangement makes sense: laryngeal stops, then laryngeal continuants (plus the bizarre Swedish sound), in the order pharyngeal, epiglottal, glottal.
- Since this is a rather drastic change, I think we should get more feedback, so we don't freak people out. BTW, I spaced the fricatives so the sibilants and laryngeals are set off. I think that helps clarify things a little bit without rearranging anything.
- I agree that the "throat sounds" are confusing, and my arrangement of them doesn't really help. ħʕʔ are familiar to me because they're used in Arabic, but the epiglottals ʡʜʢ are a blur. I vote for your first suggestion, because separating the epiglottal trills from the rest of the laryngeals would confuse me. The arrangement makes sense: laryngeal stops, then laryngeal continuants (plus the bizarre Swedish sound), in the order pharyngeal, epiglottal, glottal.
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- Yeah, it's kind of odd to have the dental stops t̪d̪, but no dental nasal n̪. All three are used in the Australian languages IPA help key, but better to either omit them entirely or have a full set, t̪d̪n̪. Considering there are no other letters with place-of-articulation diacritics, perhaps best to get rid of them. — Eru·tuon 22:57, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
- We could certainly add n̪. (And l̪?) As soon as I suggested removing them, I had second thoughts. I used to correct a *lot* of t̺ d̺ for t̪ d̪. I haven't seen that for a while -- maybe since t̪d̪ were added to edittools. Maybe just coincidence, a change in which articles I edit, but maybe the problem was solved. As for n̪, l̪, ɾ̪, etc, maybe having the examples of t̪d̪ in front of people is enough to prevent confusion. Also, most people using these characters are editing Romance languages, not Australian, and so don't use n̪. — kwami (talk) 23:15, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
- Yeah, it's kind of odd to have the dental stops t̪d̪, but no dental nasal n̪. All three are used in the Australian languages IPA help key, but better to either omit them entirely or have a full set, t̪d̪n̪. Considering there are no other letters with place-of-articulation diacritics, perhaps best to get rid of them. — Eru·tuon 22:57, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
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Could the diacritics be displayed larger (by default)? That would aid readability a lot, at least at resolutions similar to the one I'm using. --JorisvS (talk) 10:11, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
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- I can enlarge the IPA section, but only as a whole, not part of it.
-- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}}
10:59, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
- I can enlarge the IPA section, but only as a whole, not part of it.
Yep, it works for me. If you want to have separate symbols for dentals, it's a good idea to include the sibilants ⟨s̪, z̪⟩. Peter238 (talk) 12:29, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
- How often are those used? There are a lot of potential dental consonants, and people are now asking for t̪ d̪ n̪ s̪ z̪, but I hardly ever see any of them on WP other than t̪ and d̪. The 'special characters' box above the edit window has lots of precomposed characters (including t̪ d̪ n̪ n̪̍ l̪ l̪̩), but the edittool list is already pretty long without them. The diacritic is easy to use now. Really, the reason I'd like to keep t̪ and d̪ is so people don't mess them up, and their example should be good enough for other instances.
- Does anyone else think we should merge the stops and fricatives, or do you prefer what we have? @Peter238:, not sure if your "works for me" refers to the proposal at the top of this thread or also to the rearrangement of the fricatives. — kwami (talk) 20:00, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
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- They're used for pretty much every existing Slavic language (except Slovak and maybe Czech), and a good portion of other languages (French, Italian, Swedish). I use those all the time.
- It's a response to "does the new format work correctly for you?". I really have no opinion about the rearrangement, to me it's good enough as it is. But then again - I'm so not organized that you really wouldn't want to see my room :P Peter238 (talk) 23:44, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
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- I hate to add precomposed letters.
- Still not sure about interlacing the stops & frics. It jumps back and forth a bit in place, but ordering strictly by place is not user-friendly:
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'consonants: ɸβt̪d̪θðʃʒʈɖʂʐɕʑ ɟçʝɡɣɢχʁ ħʕʡʜʢʔɦɧ
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- or, if we take out the dentals:
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'consonants: ɸβθð ʃʒʈɖʂʐɕʑ ɟçʝɡɣɢχʁ ħʕʡʜʢʔɦɧ
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- The stops get kinda lost.
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- We're not getting much feedback, and little support for proposals by anyone other than their proposers. How about I wait the weekend, and then, unless there's more substantial discussion, make a request on Monday for what we seem agreed on: adding subheaders and consequently separating the spacing from combining diacritics? — kwami (talk) 23:31, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
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Protected edit request on 31 August 2015
The previous thread indicates that we have support for the following change of adding subsections to the IPA and reordering the diacritics:
'IPA': 'Consonants: t̪d̪ʈɖɟɡɢʡʔ ɸβθð ʃʒʂʐɕʑ çʝɣχʁ ħʕʜʢɦɧ ɱɳɲŋɴ ʋɹɻɥɰʍ ʙⱱɾɽʀ ɺ ɫɬɮɭʎʟ ɓɗᶑʄɠʛ ʘǀǃǂǁ Vowels: ɪʏɨʉɯʊ øɘɵɤ ə ɚ ɛœɜɝɞʌɔ æɶɐɑɒ Spacing_diacritics: ʼˀˤᵝᵊᶢˠʰʱʲˡⁿᵑʷᶣ˞ ˈˌːˑ‿˕˔ Combining_diacritics: ̚ ̪ ̺ ̻ ̼ ̬ ̥ ̊ ̞ ̝ ̘ ̙ ̽ ̟ ̠ ̈ ̤ ̹ ̜ ̩ ̍ ̆ ̯ ̃ ̰ ͡ ͜ Tone_&_prosody: ̋ ́ ̄ ̀ ̏ ̌ ̂ ᷄ ᷅ ᷇ ᷆ ᷈ ᷉ ˥˦˧˨˩ꜛꜜ↗↘‖ extIPA: ͈ ͉ ͎ ̣ ̫ ᷽ ͊ ͇˭ᵻᵿ {\{angle.bracket|+}} {\{IPA|+}} {\{IPA.link|+}}',
(Not sure I formatted the subsections correctly; please modify as needed. Should preview on test wiki to verify spacing is adequate.)
There were a couple additional reasonable suggestions, but none garnered much support, so I think they should be left for another edit request if the proposers still want them. — kwami (talk) 19:11, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Done. I did make some minor formatting changes.
-- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}}
19:24, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
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- @Edokter: Thanks! Unfortunately, <t̪d̪ʈɖɟɡɢʡʔ> prints as a single block rather than as individual letters.
- Also, the pair of diacritics < ̥ ̊ > would be more consistent with the others if it were in the opposite order:< ̊ ̥ >, and the grouping has gotten lost. Would this change in spacing work? (It is modified from your edit and so should include any changes you made.)
'IPA': 'Consonants: ɱɳɲŋɴ : t̪ d̪ ʈɖɟɡɢʡʔ : ɸβθð ʃʒʂʐɕʑ çʝɣχʁ ħʕʜʢɦɧ : ʋɹɻɥɰʍ : ʙⱱɾɽʀ ɺ ɫɬɮɭʎʟ : ɓɗᶑʄɠʛ ʘǀǃǂǁ Vowels: ɪʏɨʉɯʊ : øɘɵɤ ə ɚ ɛœɜɝɞʌɔ : æɶɐɑɒ Spacing_diacritics: ʼˀˤᵝᵊᶢˠʰʱʲˡⁿᵑʷᶣ˞ ˈˌːˑ‿˕˔ Combining_diacritics: ̚ ̪ ̺ ̻ ̼ ̬ ̊ ̥ ̞ ̝ ̘ ̙ ̽ ̟ ̠ ̈ ̤ ̹ ̜ ̩ ̍ ̆ ̯ ̃ ̰ ͡ ͜ Tone_&_prosody: ̋ ́ ̄ ̀ ̏ ̌ ̂ ᷄ ᷅ ᷇ ᷆ ᷈ ᷉ ˥˦˧˨˩ꜛꜜ↗↘‖ extIPA: ͈ ͉ ͎ ̣ ̫ ᷽ ͊ ͇˭ᵻᵿ {\{angle.bracket|+}} {\{IPA|+}} {\{IPA.link|+}}',
-
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- The only formatting changes I made were to the section headers, not to any of the characters. Possibly a copy/paste error. I'm not home right now, so I will have to test tonight. (You could also ask for adminship on testwiki so you can do your own tests.)
-- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}}
10:55, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- The only formatting changes I made were to the section headers, not to any of the characters. Possibly a copy/paste error. I'm not home right now, so I will have to test tonight. (You could also ask for adminship on testwiki so you can do your own tests.)
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- Not all charactres are recognized by MediaWiki as stand-alone characters apparently. I'll update it. I do have some concern about the size of (fric), (son) and (other); they are nearly illegible. Do they have to be that small?
-- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}}
18:46, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- Not all charactres are recognized by MediaWiki as stand-alone characters apparently. I'll update it. I do have some concern about the size of (fric), (son) and (other); they are nearly illegible. Do they have to be that small?
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- Take them out if you like. (Just leave double spaces.) They're an experiment. I was trying for sub-subheadings, and figured they'd be tried at TestWiki before being rolled out here. Maybe there's already a way of making sub-subheadings? Or maybe we could replace them with bullets. I don't know how to do that without having the colon in there, which (bullet-colon) would look weird.
- Or maybe we could just separate the subsections with colons? I don't know if that would work, or if the colons would end up as links like the rest of the characters. Maybe double colons (::)? — kwami (talk) 20:44, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- Any string ending in : is not linked but bolded. Not much to play with as no other formatting is allowed. Just the colon would works though.
-- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}}
21:31, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
- Any string ending in : is not linked but bolded. Not much to play with as no other formatting is allowed. Just the colon would works though.
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On length and stress marks
I was thinking the stress and length symbols could be moved to the front of the Spacing diacritics part of the menu:
Spacing_diacritics: ˈˌːˑʼˀˤᵝᵊᶢˠʰʱʲˡⁿᵑʷᶣ˞ ‿˕˔
They're the diacritics most commonly used, and they're more general than the airstream mechanism and secondary articulation (and so on) diacritics. The way the menu is arranged now, it's a little hard to find them.
Alternatively, the length marks could be moved to the front of Spacing diacritics, but the stress marks could be moved to the front of Tone & prosody:
Spacing_diacritics: ːˑ ʼˀˤᵝᵊᶢˠʰʱʲˡⁿᵑʷᶣ˞ ‿˕˔ ... Tone_&_prosody: ˈˌ ̋ ́ ̄ ̀ ̏ ̌ ̂ ᷄ ᷅ ᷇ ᷆ ᷈ ᷉ ˥˦˧˨˩ꜛꜜ↗↘‖
kwami, Peter238, JorisvS, Ƶ§œš¹: Any thoughts on which option should be chosen? — Eru·tuon 15:52, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
- I'll say it again: don't use the edit protected template to invite discussion; only use it when consensus has been reached and any admin can come along and make the edit.
-- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}}
16:35, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
- Comment. I'd go with the first one. Yes, stress is part of prosody. Problem is, the tone diacritics continue a run of combining diacritics before they get to the tone letters. So the stress marks would make more sense at the end of that section, which isn't what you're going for. And, as the only non-tone symbol in that section is ‖, if we can find another place to put that we can change the section heading to just "tone". Also, if we're going to make another change, I'd add a few more colons and fix the spacing before the templates. I didn't think it was worth making a request just for that. How does this look?:
'IPA': 'Consonants: ɱɳɲŋɴ : t̪ d̪ ʈɖɟɡɢʡʔ : ɸβθð ʃʒʂʐɕʑ çʝɣχʁ ħʕʜʢɦɧ : ʋɹɻɥɰʍ : ʙⱱɾɽʀ ɺ ɫɬɮɭʎʟ : ɓɗᶑʄɠʛ ʘǀǃǂǁ Vowels: ɪʏɨʉɯʊ : øɘɵɤ ə ɚ ɛœɜɝɞʌɔ : æɶɐɑɒ Spacing_diacritics: ˈˌːˑʼˀˤᵝᵊᶢˠʰʱʲˡⁿᵑʷᶣ˞‿˕˔ Combining_diacritics: ̚ ̪ ̺ ̻ ̼ ̬ ̊ ̥ ̞ ̝ ̘ ̙ ̽ ̟ ̠ ̈ ̤ ̹ ̜ ̍ ̩ ̆ ̯ ̃ ̰ ͡ ͜ Tone: ̋ ́ ̄ ̀ ̏ ̌ ̂ ᷄ ᷅ ᷇ ᷆ ᷈ ᷉ ˥˦˧˨˩ꜛꜜ : ↗↘‖ extIPA: ͈ ͉ ͎ ̣ ̫ ͊ ᷽ ͇ : ˭ᵻᵿ {\{angle.bracket|+}} {\{IPA|+}} {\{IPA.link|+}}',
(where to put prosodic boundary ‖? just fudge it and leave it at the end of 'tone', maybe spaced off from tone proper along with global pitch? I moved the nasals to the front, for a more natural transition of consonants per the convention of many of our inventory charts; can revert if there are objections.)
BTW, I'm not sure we can have a spaced block of just two characters. They seem to get combined into a single button. I put all the spacing diacritics in a single block, as they're quite visibly distinct without spacing (which really doesn't do much). — kwami (talk) 18:33, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
- I'm fine with whatever order people want, particularly as long as similarly-themed characters are placed together. — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 19:13, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
Per discussion above. — kwami (talk) 17:42, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
'IPA': 'Consonants: ɱɳɲŋɴ : t̪ d̪ ʈɖɟɡɢʡʔ : ɸβθð ʃʒʂʐɕʑ çʝɣχʁ ħʕʜʢɦɧ : ʋɹɻɥɰʍ : ʙⱱɾɽʀ ɺ ɫɬɮɭʎʟ : ɓɗᶑʄɠʛ ʘǀǃǂǁ Vowels: ɪʏɨʉɯʊ : øɘɵɤ ə ɚ ɛœɜɝɞʌɔ : æɶɐɑɒ Spacing_diacritics: ˈˌːˑʼˀˤᵝᵊᶢˠʰʱʲˡⁿᵑʷᶣ˞‿˕˔ Combining_diacritics: ̚ ̪ ̺ ̻ ̼ ̬ ̊ ̥ ̞ ̝ ̘ ̙ ̽ ̟ ̠ ̈ ̤ ̹ ̜ ̍ ̩ ̆ ̯ ̃ ̰ ͡ ͜ Tone: ̋ ́ ̄ ̀ ̏ ̌ ̂ ᷄ ᷅ ᷇ ᷆ ᷈ ᷉ ˥˦˧˨˩ꜛꜜ : ↗↘‖ extIPA: ͈ ͉ ͎ ̣ ̫ ͊ ᷽ ͇ : ˭ᵻᵿ {\{angle.bracket|+}} {\{IPA|+}} {\{IPA.link|+}}',
Done.
-- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}}
18:54, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
Super/subscripts
@Edokter: Could you test if this would work? — kwami (talk) 17:54, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
'Super & subscript': 'ᴬᴭᴱᴲᴵᴼᴽᵁ ᴮᴯᴰᴳᴴᴶᴷᴸᴹᴺᴾᴿᵀⱽᵂ ᵃᵄᵅᶛᵉᵊᵋᵌⁱᶤᶦᶧᵒᶱᵓꟹᵘᶶᶷᶸ ᵇᶜᶝᵈᶞᶠᵍᶢʰʱʲᶨᶡᵏˡᶪᶩᶫᵐᶬⁿᶮᶯᵑᶰᵖʳʴʵʶˢᶳᶴᵗᶵᵛᶺʷᵚᶭˣʸᶣᶻᶼᶽᶾ ˀˁˤ ᵝᵞˠᵟᵋᶿᶥᶹᵠᶲᵡ ⁽⁾ꜝꜞ⁺⁻⁼⁄ Subscript: ₐₑₔᵢₒᵤ ₕⱼₖₗₘₙₚᵣₛₜᵥₓ ᵦᵧᵨᵩᵪ ₍₎ꜟ₊₋₌ Combining: ͣ ͤ ͥ ͦ ͧ ͨ ͩ ͪ ͫ ͬ ͭ ͮ ͯ ᷊ {\{Unicode|+}}',
[removed digits: ⁰¹²³⁴⁵⁶⁷⁸⁹ ₀₁₂₃₄₅₆₇₈₉⏨]
- I think the combining characters need to be spaced somehow; they show up stacked.
-- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}}
18:52, 6 September 2015 (UTC)- @Edokter: How's that? — kwami (talk) 22:17, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
- Much better! Now on test.wiki.
-- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}}
20:32, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
- Much better! Now on test.wiki.
- @Edokter: How's that? — kwami (talk) 22:17, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
- Why do we need these? The MOS, e.g. WP:SUPSCRIPT, explicitly prohibits them, and there are many ways to generate them without using special characters, such as HTML or templates. Occasionally I’ve had reason to remove and replace them with proper superscripts, and I can only see them becoming far more widespread if they are present in the edit tools. which editors will probably encounter before they look at the MOS.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 21:54, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
- That's a historical doc, not part of the MOS. We've always used hard-coded superscripts for IPA. They're necessary whenever we want our text to be copy&paste friendly. But we shouldn't implement this if it's going to cause problems. — kwami (talk) 03:45, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
- Didn't notice it was historical; I suspect as it was merged into the main MOS as the same instruction appears there, briefly under MOS:#Units of measurement and in more detail at MOS:MATH#Superscripts and subscripts. As for copying and pasting if you see something like xβ + γ and want to copy the superscript to e.g. look up or copy it elsewhere you want to be copying β + γ, not Unicode characters that are hard-superscripted.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 04:15, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
- @JohnBlackburne: Hard-coded super & subscripts are intended for where the semantics changes compared to the base letter. E.g. ʷ is not a [w] sound but labialization of another sound. If you were to copy & paste a soft-coded superscript w you would end up with the wrong sound. So it's different from algebra, where a superscript beta is the same symbol as a non-superscript beta. All the superscript letters in Unicode have demonstrated use with distinct semantics. The MOS just says that powers etc. should be soft-coded. We might be able to take care of that by removing the digits from the menu. — kwami (talk) 05:42, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
- Didn't notice it was historical; I suspect as it was merged into the main MOS as the same instruction appears there, briefly under MOS:#Units of measurement and in more detail at MOS:MATH#Superscripts and subscripts. As for copying and pasting if you see something like xβ + γ and want to copy the superscript to e.g. look up or copy it elsewhere you want to be copying β + γ, not Unicode characters that are hard-superscripted.--JohnBlackburnewordsdeeds 04:15, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
- That's a historical doc, not part of the MOS. We've always used hard-coded superscripts for IPA. They're necessary whenever we want our text to be copy&paste friendly. But we shouldn't implement this if it's going to cause problems. — kwami (talk) 03:45, 8 September 2015 (UTC)
@Edokter: Could you test again? Removed the digits per John's objection, put back the super V and added a sub j I had overlooked. — kwami (talk) 22:30, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
- Will do when I get home.
-- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}}
10:54, 11 September 2015 (UTC)- Done on testwiki. Sorry it slipped my mind.
-- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}}
10:00, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
- Done on testwiki. Sorry it slipped my mind.