Contents
WP:ArbCom-banned Leucosticte's articles
Opinions are needed on the following matter: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#WP:ArbCom-banned Leucosticte's articles. A WP:Permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:51, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
- It seems that opinions are not needed - the issue of content worth was resolved via nuking: G5speedy - 50.82.34.254 (talk) 01:10, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
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- Opinions were needed at the time, and the Discussion section shows why the matter was resolved; it was not resolved because of WP:G5. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:44, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
Requests for doppleganger?
How do you request for a doppleganger? If a user had a previous block for socking or block evasion, what could he/she do to have a doppleganger without letting them misuse the doppleganger? An example is my own requesting of doppleganger for QwertyXP2000, even though I am actually Qwertyxp2000. I did have a previous block for a minor case of socking and block evasion. Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 03:23, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
- @Qwertyxp2000: I don't understand what exactly you want. According to WP:DOPPELGÄNGER, A doppelgänger account is a second account created with a username similar to one's main account to prevent impersonation. You don't need to request anything. You can create another account with a similar name and mark it with {{Doppelganger}} tag. Doppelganger must not be used for editing. So, any user can create a doppelganger account as long as it is properly marked and not used for editing (except those user that are explicitly forbidden to have more than one account by the ArbCom, or similar). Vanjagenije (talk) 11:51, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Vanjagenije: Ah okay. I can make any doppleganger as long as I tag the doppelganger with {{Doppelganger}} and don't use it for editing of any sort, and if I am not explicitly forbidden from ArbCom or similar. Okay. Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 23:44, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
- By the way, QwertyXP2000 is not useable. So I made a doppelganger called Qwetyxp2000, in case vandals impersonate me. Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 23:49, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Vanjagenije: But I think the part about having multiple accounts for good use should be clarified with the fact that anyone can create a proper doppelganger unless explicitly forbidden to have more than one account. Consensus? Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 20:20, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Qwertyxp2000: I don't see what is to be clarified. It is clear from the text that anybody is free to use multiple accounts for legitimate uses. Vanjagenije (talk) 21:57, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
- I think what needs clarification is different sets of rules, one for declared alternative accounts, the other for undeclared alternative accounts. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:33, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
- Absolutely agree with you SmokeyJoe, but what shall we improve on? Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 23:37, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
- I think what needs clarification is different sets of rules, one for declared alternative accounts, the other for undeclared alternative accounts. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:33, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Qwertyxp2000: I don't see what is to be clarified. It is clear from the text that anybody is free to use multiple accounts for legitimate uses. Vanjagenije (talk) 21:57, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Vanjagenije: But I think the part about having multiple accounts for good use should be clarified with the fact that anyone can create a proper doppelganger unless explicitly forbidden to have more than one account. Consensus? Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 20:20, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
- By the way, QwertyXP2000 is not useable. So I made a doppelganger called Qwetyxp2000, in case vandals impersonate me. Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 23:49, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Vanjagenije: Ah okay. I can make any doppleganger as long as I tag the doppelganger with {{Doppelganger}} and don't use it for editing of any sort, and if I am not explicitly forbidden from ArbCom or similar. Okay. Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 23:44, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
I was thinking about a Level 3 section below the "legitimite uses" section that says "exceptions" and mention the fact that any user regardless of minor sockpuppet violations may create alternate accounts if not explicitly said by ArbCom or similar.
By the way, my block log mentions socking in the case of a minor case of vote-socking, where I was blocked for a week, and that was about 9 months ago. I remembered block evading half-way through the 1-week block but then had realised why I was blocked, which then I had learned a lesson (to not sock or block-evade). From then on, I did not receive any sock or block warnings since May 2015. Last month I was wanting a doppelganger for legitimate uses but was scared to make one out of fear of my block log, which is why I was asking about "requests for doppelganger" in the first place. Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 23:54, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
- I don't agree with this proposal. First of all, those are not "exceptions". Also, it is clear from the text of the policy that everybody is free to create multiple acounts as long as they are WP:VALIDALT. I don't see any need for clarification. Vanjagenije (talk) 16:52, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Okay. But the policies page should be so clear that every user can understand the policy. Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 22:04, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Wait a sec, "If you use an alternative account, it is your responsibility to ensure that you do not violate this policy". Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 22:06, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- And also "...if there are no active bans, blocks, or sanctions in place...". By the way, Vanjagenije, I would recommend quoting the sentences that are already clear enough (as in those quotes I did from this indent and the indent before) to make it clear for the user if he/she is not sure about unclarity. Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 22:08, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- I totally do not understand what are you talking about. Vanjagenije (talk) 22:13, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- What you could've said beforehand to me was this: "The section on legitimate uses already is clear enough. 'If you use an alternative account, it is your responsibility to ensure that you do not violate this policy' explains that you are free to create alternate accounts with your responsibility. '...if there are no active bans, blocks, or sanctions in place...' explains the fact about having no restrictions as long as there are no active bans, blocks, or sanctions in place." Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 09:37, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Vanjagenije: By the way, can I add a section nutshell to that WP:SOCK#LEGIT section? Proposing nutshell to say "Users may create multiple accounts under their responsibility unless they have any active blocks, bans or sanctions" or similar. Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 09:01, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Qwertyxp2000: I don't think it's a good idea to encourage people to create multiple accounts. Multiple accounts should be used minimally. Vanjagenije (talk) 15:54, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- @Vanjagenije: By the way, can I add a section nutshell to that WP:SOCK#LEGIT section? Proposing nutshell to say "Users may create multiple accounts under their responsibility unless they have any active blocks, bans or sanctions" or similar. Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 09:01, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- What you could've said beforehand to me was this: "The section on legitimate uses already is clear enough. 'If you use an alternative account, it is your responsibility to ensure that you do not violate this policy' explains that you are free to create alternate accounts with your responsibility. '...if there are no active bans, blocks, or sanctions in place...' explains the fact about having no restrictions as long as there are no active bans, blocks, or sanctions in place." Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 09:37, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
- I totally do not understand what are you talking about. Vanjagenije (talk) 22:13, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- And also "...if there are no active bans, blocks, or sanctions in place...". By the way, Vanjagenije, I would recommend quoting the sentences that are already clear enough (as in those quotes I did from this indent and the indent before) to make it clear for the user if he/she is not sure about unclarity. Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 22:08, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Wait a sec, "If you use an alternative account, it is your responsibility to ensure that you do not violate this policy". Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 22:06, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- Okay. But the policies page should be so clear that every user can understand the policy. Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 22:04, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
@Vanjagenije: Then just shorten the nutshell to "Users with Multiple accounts are used created under their the user's responsibility, unless they have any active blocks, bans or sanctions". Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 20:15, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
- Or "All alternate accounts may be used for legitimate uses, unless the user has any active blocks, bans or sanctions in place". Just thought of that yesterday, which I feel may be a better nutshell. Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 06:51, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Possible sock/meat puppetry
Not sure where to post this so I figured I'd here. If this is the wrong place, then a push in the right direction would be most appreciated. This recent post made to Talk:Another Language Performing Arts Company has me a bit concerned, so I'm wondering if someone else might take a look. Two of the primary contributors to the article seem to have a conflict of interest, and yesterday and today two new accounts, which seem like SPAs, started editing the page. Not sure if these are socks, meat puppets, or just a "loose association of academic and secular persons who are marginally aware of the group", but the notability of the organization in question is iffy and a post I two months ago made at WT:UTA#Another Language Performing Arts Company got no traction, so this new bit of activity seems a little surprising. -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:47, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
- @Marchjuly: Correct place is to open an investigation at WP:SPI (see the box titled "How to open an investigation"). Vanjagenije (talk) 09:26, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
- @Marchjuly: Actually, I opened the investigation: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Jhmiklavcic. Vanjagenije (talk) 09:32, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you for checking Vanjagenije. I was aware of SPI, but I wasn't sure if there was enough of a duck to warrant one. -- Marchjuly (talk) 10:17, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
- @Marchjuly:If you have a good reason for suspecting it, open a case; whether or not there is need for CheckUser, that's the place to go - if it's DUCK, the users will be blocked; if it's borderline, CheckUser may be asked to look at it. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 19:22, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
- Thank you for checking Vanjagenije. I was aware of SPI, but I wasn't sure if there was enough of a duck to warrant one. -- Marchjuly (talk) 10:17, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
Editing while logged out
About the section: Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry#Editing_while_logged_out which I will copy here for convenience
There is no policy against editing while logged out. This happens for many reasons, including not noticing that the login session had expired, changing computers, going to a Wikipedia page directly from a link, and forgetting passwords. Editors who are not logged in must not actively try to deceive other editors, such as by directly saying that they do not have an account or by using the session for the inappropriate uses of alternate accounts listed earlier in this policy. To protect their privacy, editors who are editing while logged out are never required to disclose their usernames on-wiki.
I noticed that this was added by WhatamIdoing who noted the addition here on talk, in this section. For clarity, what is the concern behind the sentence "To protect their privacy, editors who are editing while logged out are never required to disclose their usernames on-wiki." and how is this meant to play out in real life on a Talk page, especially related to the sentence just before it?
Example: UserX does a lot of editing and talking on page A, and an IP editor shows up whose edits are very similar. UserY notices this similarity, and .... what? In light of that last sentence, which i just quoted, what is it OK for UserY to ask the IP, and what is the IP obligated to reply if they are UserX?
Thanks Jytdog (talk) 19:44, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
- The editor (neither as the IP, nor while logged in later) is never obligated to tell anyone that the username is associated with a now-public IP address. It would be morally preferable to ignore the question rather than lying, but seriously: never means never. Some people edit from fixed IP addresses, and disclosing their location means handing out their home or work addresses to every crazy person on the internet. We've had editors stalked from this kind of information, and some of it's pretty scary (like a telephone call that "just happens" to mention the names of the editor's kids and which schools they attend).
- There is no formal prohibition on asking once. Such a request should never misrepresent policies, e.g., by claiming that the IP is required to answer such a question. Repeating the request or insisting upon an answer may constitute harassment.
- However, my recommendation is that you don't even ask (on wiki). The typical motivation for doing so is to discredit the IP's comments, which generally isn't helpful, much less necessary. Most experienced editors will recognize that situation for what it is even if nobody says a word. If you've got someone skating on the edge of topic ban issues (or similar), then you should quietly send an e-mail message to a checkuser instead. Otherwise, it can be ignored.
- A middle ground might be a friendly note to tell the IP that if s/he's accidentally logged out and doesn't want the IP address exposed, then Wikipedia:Requests for oversight is available. For greater safety, if the logged-in editor has e-mail enabled, you could e-mail that friendly note instead of posting it on wiki. WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:11, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for that. I hear that. So, if you suspect that an IP editor is a person with an account who is actually socking (e.g avoiding scrutiny or attemping to multiply their voice), what is the best thing to do? Just not ask at all (which seems to be what you are saying is best) but rather go right to SPI and present the diffs that show why you think that? I generally do prefer to talk things out with editors who are acting in a problematic way on their talk page but based on what you are saying that is really suboptimal here. Emailing checkusers and the like seems complicated and too personal. I think it would be useful to add a practical advice section here, especially due to the sensitivity. Jytdog (talk) 08:28, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
- Sending an e-mail message to checkusers (or a relevant admin, if one is already involved) is the recommended procedure whenever IP issues crop up. SPI won't accept public requests to connect an IP to a username anyway, so private requests are the only way to do it.
- As tempting as it is to talk it out in public, that can (sometimes) be a significant problem. For "avoiding scrutiny" issues, I'd recommend contacting CU or admins privately; for "multiplying voice" problems, I'd either leave it alone (most of us will assume that the IP is the same editor), or if it looks like a potential problem (e.g., an inexperienced NAC is closing an RFC), then contacting others involved might be appropriate. To the extent that it's feasible, please try to keep it either private or low-key. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:21, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for replying. But you wrote "SPI won't accept public requests to connect an IP to a username anyway, so private requests are the only way to do it" and this appears to be untrue - many of the cases there a) are still in the record and b) ended with blocks. So I don't understand where you are coming from with regard to actual practice at SPI. My question remains very open and I am looking for an answer that makes sense in light of privacy concerns and what we actually do here. Jytdog (talk) 17:34, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
- WhatamIdoing do you have anything further to say on this? If not, I will try to elicit responses from more folks, maybe over at the harassment Talk page... Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 13:06, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
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- OK, I will open a discussion at talk:Harassment about this. Jytdog (talk) 20:11, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
- @Jytdog: I'm guessing WhatamIdoing meant that public requests for a CheckUser to connect an IP and an account are not accepted. Behavioural evidence alone can be assessed and blocks made. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:24, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks Callanecc. That completely makes sense. What is your advice about the scenario I posed above? Go to SPI or ask the person directly? Jytdog (talk) 02:28, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
- If it's obvious go straight to SPI. Otherwise leave the IP a message reminding them about the policy (for example Template:Uw-login). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:47, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks Callanecc. That completely makes sense. What is your advice about the scenario I posed above? Go to SPI or ask the person directly? Jytdog (talk) 02:28, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
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- Thanks for that. I hear that. So, if you suspect that an IP editor is a person with an account who is actually socking (e.g avoiding scrutiny or attemping to multiply their voice), what is the best thing to do? Just not ask at all (which seems to be what you are saying is best) but rather go right to SPI and present the diffs that show why you think that? I generally do prefer to talk things out with editors who are acting in a problematic way on their talk page but based on what you are saying that is really suboptimal here. Emailing checkusers and the like seems complicated and too personal. I think it would be useful to add a practical advice section here, especially due to the sensitivity. Jytdog (talk) 08:28, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
I think it would be useful to add, then: "If you have concerns that an IP editor is actually a user with an account who is editing while logged out in a way that is an inappropriate use of alternate accounts listed earlier in this policy, you should give the IP editor notice of this policy, and if the behavior continues, you should present a case at WP:SPI" How is that? Jytdog (talk) 02:57, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
- Hows this, pretty much the same but with a few little changes: "If you have concerns that an IP editor is actually a user with an account who is editing while logged out in a way that is an inappropriate use of alternate accounts listed earlier in this policy, you should give the IP editor notice of this policy (templated notice), and if the behavior continues, you should present a case at WP:SPI (without requesting CheckUser evidence")? Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:22, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
- Way way better. I am good with that. Shall we let this sit a bit and see if others have ideas or are OK with it? Thanks! Jytdog (talk) 03:24, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
- I closed the discussion I opened at WT:OUTING and directed folks back here. Jytdog (talk) 03:30, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
- Sorry I've just seen this. I'd actually prefer editors contact a checkuser directly privately first. This allows for 1) The checkuser to investigate if it's a sock, instead of a legitimate user 2) It saves the person from feeling presured to identify themselves at the SPI, or be identified if a block comes in 3) Checkusers can leave public warnings about logged out editing without revealing the IP, or even outright block them. Please exucse me if this doesn't make sense, I am a little tired right now. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 05:00, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
- Is there anyway we could reword the first sentence? It seems over inclusive as there are some prohibited forms of logged out editing. -- Amanda (aka DQ) 05:00, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
How's this:
- Change There is no policy against editing while logged out. to Editing logged out of one's account is permitted as the IP address(es) is not used inappropriately. Logged out editing happens for many reasons ...
- Add as a paragraph after the current one in the Editing while logged out section: If you have concerns that an IP editor is actually a user with an account who is editing while logged out in a way that is inappropriate, you can give the IP editor notice of this policy (templated notice), and if the behavior continues, you should contact a CheckUser privately and present evidence to them.
@DeltaQuad and Jytdog:? Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 05:45, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
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- I didn't know there is a list of checkusers at WP:CheckUser. Shows what you I know. :) Maybe a note that there is actually a list, and that CUs are OK with being emailed or something, although I guess if policy says it, it must be OK. Hm. I just avoid burdening people with burdensome jobs with more stuff when i can. Anyway it seems the two of you have this well in hand and I will bow to your judgement. Thanks so much for your attention to this. This issue came up three times for me recently and one of them was a big ugly mess. it will be great to have clarity on this. Jytdog (talk) 05:52, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
- The link to contacting a CU should help. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:27, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
- Yes perfect. I am good waiting a bit to see if there is more input but if you want to implement have at it, of course. thanks again. Jytdog (talk) 06:39, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
- I came here from the discussion at WT:HA. Please let me suggest two more things about the revisions:
- I think it would be clearer if the last sentence of the existing paragraph were changed from: To protect their privacy, editors who are editing while logged out are never required to disclose their usernames on-wiki. to: To protect their privacy, editors who have edited while logged out are never required to connect their usernames to their IP addresses on-wiki. I think that's what it really means, and after all, the right does not go away after one has stopped editing while logged out, which is what "editors who are editing logged out" sounds like.
- Just a minor nitpick with Callanecc's #1: Editing while logged out of one's account is permitted as long as the IP address(es) is not used inappropriately. Logged out editing happens for many reasons....
- In addition, I have a question about the Uw-login template (which I just learned about here, in fact). I noticed that Callanecc's language was quite precise about using the template to notify the IP user, which makes sense, because that way one does not link the IP to a username. But my question is whether there is any policy or guidance about whether or not to send the template notice to the registered account instead (and if not, should there be)? Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:04, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
- I really like Tryptofish's first suggestion.
- My main concern with "as long as the IP address is not used inappropriately" is that we have a few editors that will probably interpret all edits by people who are accidentally logged out (and not agreeing with said editors) as "inappropriate". AGF might be a guideline, but if you accidentally get logged out, then you're "Creating an illusion of support" and "Contributing to the same page or discussion with multiple accounts" and probably even "Editing logged out to mislead" – and if the dispute isn't on an article's talk page, then I can charge you with "Editing project space", too. Consequently, I think it's helpful to make a stronger statement, much closer to "There is no policy against editing while logged out." There is a policy against editing while logged out and doing something that is prohibited if you were logged into a different account, but there is no actual policy against (simply) editing while logged out. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:13, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks. And about the main point you made, you put your finger on something that was making me uncomfortable as well, but that I didn't quite identify until now. Given that there is no policy against it, overall, but there is a violation under certain circumstances, and those circumstances are explained two sentences later, how about: There is no policy against editing while logged out per se., with "per se" added at the end? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:24, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
- I think that per se would be an important clarification. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:54, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks! And two questions to everyone: Are we pretty much in agreement about the revisions at this point? And again, I'm interested in an answer to my earlier question, about the Uw-login template. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:07, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
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- i'm good. this was very helpful to me at least. thanks everyone. Jytdog (talk) 21:15, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- I've implemented it on the page. Other editors may want to double-check my edit. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:18, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
- i'm good. this was very helpful to me at least. thanks everyone. Jytdog (talk) 21:15, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
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- Thanks! And two questions to everyone: Are we pretty much in agreement about the revisions at this point? And again, I'm interested in an answer to my earlier question, about the Uw-login template. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:07, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- I think that per se would be an important clarification. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:54, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks. And about the main point you made, you put your finger on something that was making me uncomfortable as well, but that I didn't quite identify until now. Given that there is no policy against it, overall, but there is a violation under certain circumstances, and those circumstances are explained two sentences later, how about: There is no policy against editing while logged out per se., with "per se" added at the end? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:24, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
- I came here from the discussion at WT:HA. Please let me suggest two more things about the revisions:
- Yes perfect. I am good waiting a bit to see if there is more input but if you want to implement have at it, of course. thanks again. Jytdog (talk) 06:39, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
- The link to contacting a CU should help. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 06:27, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
- I didn't know there is a list of checkusers at WP:CheckUser. Shows what you I know. :) Maybe a note that there is actually a list, and that CUs are OK with being emailed or something, although I guess if policy says it, it must be OK. Hm. I just avoid burdening people with burdensome jobs with more stuff when i can. Anyway it seems the two of you have this well in hand and I will bow to your judgement. Thanks so much for your attention to this. This issue came up three times for me recently and one of them was a big ugly mess. it will be great to have clarity on this. Jytdog (talk) 05:52, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
yes you did. thanks again, all. Jytdog (talk) 01:20, 2 March 2016 (UTC)