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It cites unreliable sources (including a HEMA practitioner) and the contents flatly contradict the sources in places. The issue seems to be the question of whether or not it is a fallacy to appeal to a legitimate authority in a subject as part of an argument about that subject. It is not, according to virtually every reliable source I can find, in print or on the web. Even many of the sources cited by the article plainly state that it is not. However, the article seems to be written to refute this, to the point that every single example given is one in which a legitimate authority was incorrect about something. It needs serious work, and while I'm not above doing it alone, I would greatly appreciate any support, as I have found none on the article talk page, and I don't want to start an edit war. MjolnirPants Tell me all about it. 20:32, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- I answered you at the article here. --David Tornheim (talk) 01:53, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
Self-disorder article
This article about a mental phenomenon associated with schizophrenia deals with phenomenology. Because of this, I am looking for comments and advice on the self-disorder article. There is a thread on the article's talk page. Thank you. --Beneficii (talk) 22:12, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
- Philosophical phenomenology is not a clinical psychiatric condition. The 'phenomena' that schizophrenics experience is private and subjective.
- Nevertheless, I suggest a good look at the article History of the Concept of Disconnectivity in Schizophrenia in the Harvard Review of Psychiatry (March/April 2016) by Coyle, Joseph T. MD; Balu, Darrick T. PhD; Puhl, Matthew D. PhD; Konopaske, Glenn T. MD. They say that 60 years of clinical research shows that "widespread loss of cortical synaptic connectivity appears to be the primary pathology in schizophrenia that is driven by multiple risk genes that adversely affect synaptogenesis and synapse maintenance". ~~ BlueMist (talk) 12:58, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
- I have no idea how to correct the article according to your recommendation, so I ask that you WP:BE_BOLD. --Beneficii (talk) 20:12, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
- I've added a few things and tried to steer the page away from the philosophical sense of phenomenon. The problem, as I see it now, does not appear to be in the page, but in the nature of the progression of the science of psychology. A hundred years ago there was a movement away from philosophical and purely subjective symptomatic classification ('stamp collecting') to objective behavioral testing. More recently, great leaps in imaging and other technologies has shifted emphasis to biochemical and to in vivo structural studies, and then to even more fundamental genetics. However, subjective methods are still helpful. ~~ BlueMist (talk) 03:01, 15 March 2016 (UTC)
- I agree that utilizing all these approaches and integrating them is a good idea, and I think psychiatry can make real advances doing this, but as some of the review articles quoted on the self-disorder article have said, the subjective element of mental disorders has been somewhat neglected lately, especially in the U.S. I think an integrated approach would provide the multiple lines of evidence needed to come up with models for mental disorders and test them. If you look at the pathogenesis section, there is already some attempt at doing that by, for example, looking at the connection between self-disorders and perceptual incoherence and coming up with a model (the Postmes 2014 article). --Beneficii (talk) 02:01, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
- Here is a (primary source) article that discusses Schizophrenia and phenomenological philosophy. There is a phenomenological psychology article that touches on the philosophical aspects. Self-awareness#Philosophy also discusses some of these issues and there is a Self-awareness#Schizophrenia section, too. --Mark viking (talk) 20:29, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
"Misfortune"
The usage and topic and primary topic of Misfortune is under discussion, see talk:Misfortune (disambiguation) -- 70.51.46.39 (talk) 04:57, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
Invitation to our April event
(To subscribe, Women in Red/Invite list. Unsubscribe, Women in Red/Opt-out list) --Rosiestep (talk) 02:04, 25 March 2016 (UTC)
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Help please. Standard whether WP should use the label "philosopher"
If any of you has some time to review what FreeKnowledgeCreator has been up-to in topics concerning Philosophy, in particular Philosophers, it would be a big help. Beginning-with a problem in the Timothy Leary article especially, interactions with other editors have been curt and sharp as-if other editors are supposed to be following guidelines specific to philosophy that as far as I can tell do not exist. Any Guidance concerning this would be helpful-thanks. TeeVeeed (talk) 13:09, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- Respectfully, it is not clear to me what you are trying to accomplish with these vague complaints. What exactly do you expect editors to do? I had a disagreement with some other editors at the Timothy Leary article, yes - what of it? Disagreements are common on Wikipedia, and so far as I know, I have a right to disagree with people. Instead of making some kind of ill-defined complaint about me, you could instead have left a neutral note that there was a dispute at that article and asked editors interested in philosophy topics to comment on it, whatever their views (the dispute concerns whether Leary should be labelled a philosopher). As for "interactions with other editors have been curt and sharp", I have been considerably less rude and aggressive than certain other editors in the course of that disagreement. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 21:27, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
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- Well-personally, I'm not comfortable with the idea that editors are just supposed to settle discussions like who is and who is not a philosopher. Leary for instance, the article passed what is normally considered using reliable references yet your arguments hinted at policy standards that were never produced. Also- I don't think that it really is debatable whether or not someone is/was a philosopher, like Huxley where I think you changed his article as well? Either someone is/was or not. But as far as WP is concerned, I thought that the rule is that if reliable sources say it, it is acceptable.TeeVeeed (talk) 21:58, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
- You might wish to review the discussion at WP:NPOVN, TeeVeeed. Several editors noted that the case for labeling Leary a philosopher was open to question. Per WP:NPOV, "All encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." Evidently there are sources that call Leary a philosopher, but whether that amounts to a significant view remains in dispute. One user, Fyddlestix, commented, "there are a few legit sources out there that do describe Leary as a philosopher...The International Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences, for example, describes him as 'a psychologist, scientist, and philosopher who made substantive contributions to interpersonal theory and methodology and also gained notoriety for his endorsement of and research on hallucinogens.' So the IP isn't completely off-base, although I'm skeptical that there are enough sources like this out there to justify using the 'philosopher' label." That seems a reasonable observation. There might be a case for calling Leary a philosopher if more high-quality sources were provided, which has not happened so far. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 22:07, 29 March 2016 (UTC)
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- This question comes up repeatedly at articles edited by enthusiasts, some well-informed and well-intentioned, and others with limited perspective on the issue. It's a longstanding issue at Ayn Rand and a highly motivated editor kept at it for about a year at Stefan Molyneux, going so far as to edit the Philosopher article to support his POV, before he was finally TBANned. Among the common contributing factors in these articles are citations to what appear to be RS but which are written by members of a closed group of acolytes of the purported philosopher. SPECIFICO talk 00:27, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- That is unfortunately true, and I think the situation you are describing may well apply at the Timothy Leary article. The "philosopher" claim is currently cited to this document, "An annotated bibliography of Timothy Leary", written partly by Michael Horowitz, described in his article as a "former close associate" of Leary. I think there may be grounds for questioning whether it qualifies as a reliable source. The publisher, Archon, is not known to me. It certainly does not seem to be a mainstream press, and its books cannot have the same level of reliability as something published by a mainstream academic press. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 03:59, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- You raise an excellent point--there are 50 shades of philosopher. Would a more nuanced description in the article help achieve consensus? Perhaps one could say:
- Leary considered himself a philosopher
- Associates of Leary considered him a philosopher
- Leary wrote about philosophy, I'm thinking of works like the eight-circuit model of consciousness
- Leary was not formally trained as a philosopher
- As a counterculture figure, Leary was outside the mainstream of philosophy (my guess, I have no source for this)
- --Mark viking (talk) 18:34, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
- Blue Mist 1 altered the "philosopher" description to "self-described philosopher" here, which was reverted, on the basis of one user's personal understanding of the meaning of "philosopher." Skyerise restored "self-described" here, and that was also reverted, by the same user who reverted Blue Mist 1. The article is thus suffering from very unseemly behavior aimed at presenting Leary as a "philosopher" without qualification. Conceivably, some qualifier other than "self-described" might stand a better chance of acceptance. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 23:15, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘There's a related discussion on the talk page at Philosopher that would benefit from additional participation by Philosophy Project members. SPECIFICO talk 13:00, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
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- I agree with the general view that we need clear standards on who is considered a philosopher. A litmus tests on this issue is (or ought to be) Noam Chomsky, whose formal training and occupation centers on linguistics, and yet many sources (some highly credible), consider him a philosopher, despite having no academic qualifications to that effect. One thing that might sway people is that Chomsky is actually published in philosophy journals likeSynthese and Mind, which ought to count as philosophical contributions at the highest level of professional philosophy (even if you don't have a doctoral degree from a philosophy program).
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- So what does this say for Leary? It gives us a helpful set of questions to ask: (1) Is his doctoral degree in philosophy? (2) Does he have any publications in philosophy? (3) Are any of his views (like the aforementioned Eight-circuit model) been noted or otherwise discussed by professional philosophers or in philosophy journals? (4) Has he ever been employed by a philosophy department? (5) Are there any credible sources that depict him as a philosopher? These questions seem to be a good starting point in answering the question. BabyJonas (talk) 10:15, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
RfC on Genocide-related flag icons
Since this is a listed project, there is an ongoing RfC to determine the validity of flags in Genocide-related articles. It's at Use of flag icons on genocide-related articles. Please comment there. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:32, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
- The discussion is closed. Should this RFC reflect that? BabyJonas (talk) 10:20, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
"Surface"
The usage and topic of surface is under discussion, see Talk:Surface -- 70.51.45.100 (talk) 05:51, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
Any opinions?
The Christian apologist William Lane Craig, notable for his vigorous and single-minded polemical defence of Wesleyan Christianity, is also a theologian who has been employed as a "professor of philosophy" by a succession of Wesleyan theological colleges. An insistent group of Christian apologists are claiming on his talk page that he should be primarily identified as a philosopher, and specifically as an analytic philosopher rather than as a Christian philosopher or apologist. They have tagged his article as being within the scope of the WikiProject Philosophy task force for Analytic Philosophy. Any opinions? --Epipelagic (talk) 02:58, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
Defeasiblity
Currently Defeasibility is a redirect to Falsifiability. Unless I misunderstand, though, the two terms mean something rather different in logic, don't they? Help with the redirect is appreciated. (See also Defeasible (disambiguation), which points to Defeasible reasoning and (since my recent edit) Defeasible logic. If necessary, help there would also be appreciated.) Cnilep (talk) 03:38, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
- The two terms are not coextensive philosophically, you are correct. Do you just need help untangling the redirect or is there something else going on? BabyJonas (talk) 10:22, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
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- Two specific questions, I guess: (1) What should the redirect point to? (2) Should anything be added to or removed from the disambiguation page? Cnilep (talk) 03:00, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
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Plato on Egyptian self cultivation
Years ago I happened to read on a web page that in one of his dialogues Plato states that on an Egyptian pyramid there was an inscription which described the way how man can reach the condition of a god by simply breathing. Could anybody here help me find the citation? Thank you very much for the attention.05:39, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
Medical Controversies – principles for category inclusion
This is posted here as the Category:Medical controversies page falls under the Wikiproject Philosophy purview.
The issues follow from discussions at CFS: Talk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chronic_fatigue_syndrome#Problems_of_controversy
There does not seem to be any guidance on what in WP terms constitutes a medical controversy and there is a danger that the Category: Medical Controveries could act as a self referential axiom, whereby a page listed at is automatically defined as medical controversy without necessarily meeting, or continuing to meet an encyclopaedic definition of a Medical controversies.
Suggested principles of what would be required to meet an encyclopaedic definition of a medical controversy.
What a medical controversy is not:
- Not a media controversy. i.e a controversy that is presented in the media as a medical issue but is not reflected as such in MEDRS
- Not a mere difference of medical opinion, either between individual clinicians/researchers, informal groups of clinicians/researchers, formal research groups, institions or specialisms.
- Not an historical division of opinion between individual clinicians/researchers etc.
- Not a fact established by unsupported opinion even when expressed by authors of MEDRS.
Location of a medical controversy:
- A medical controversy should be capable of location within one or more aspects of an illness, disease etc. Classing an entire illness as controversial is rarely encyclopaedic, controversy were it truly exists can be identified in aspects such as diagnosis, physiology, treatment, research etc.
- A medical controversy may also be geographically specific. This can be difficult to address encyclopaedically and it is essential that the geographical nature be clearly specified.
- A medical controversy may be service or specialism specific, again to be encyclopaedic the clinical/academic location of the controversy needs to be accurately identified.
Attachment of controversy to illness/disease:
There are multiple points by which controversy can attach to an illness. Poor research, fraudulent research, political speech, media commentary, poor or dangerous treament, fraudulent treatment and fraudulent practitioners, celebrity comment, clebrity patient etc. From an encyclopaedic perspective these sources of controversy should not of themselves support classification of a subject as a medical controversy. Of course if a piece of research or a treatment has impacted on clinical practice, then that research or treatment may of itself be a medical controversy - Hyperemesis gravidarum is a non controversial medical condition, but its treament with thalidomide remains profoundly controversial because of the harm caused. It is notable that this is no longer a continuing medical controversy as a treatment because no resonable clinician would any longer prescribe thalidomide it for morning sickness, but it remains a controversy because of the the continuing effect on the lives of those who were harmed.
Sources defining a medical controversy:
In science controversy isn’t about mere difference of perspective – different groups of researchers are in energetic argument with other groups all the time, for there to be medical/scientific controversy there needs to be more than the usual fighting of corners, instead there needs to be an exceptional divide in scientific perspective. In medicine such an exceptional divide should be indentifiable in MEDRS, with the material clearly specifying the basis and location of the controversy.
The Specific case of CFS:
Medical controversies tend to resolve as research progresses, while in comparison political, media, and social controversies do not, although these latter types may fade from general interest. CFS is certainly a difficult illness about which to construct an encyclopaedia article, it has more than one name attached to it, diagnosis is by symptomology only, there is no current certain treatment and its pathophysiology is not established. Nevertheless over the last 25 years there has been progress in formulating now well established processes of diagnosis, there is general clinical acceptance that management options are limited and offer little benefit for most patients, and there has begun to be progessive investment in researching the biological bases of the condition. Various media controversies have attached to CFS and the false association of the XMRV retrovirus and ongoing open data issues related to a study called PACE are research controversies that have attached to CFS, however neither has impacted on the established positions on diagnosis, pathology or management. To the extent that CFS has itself been considered controversial, this has been related to a debate about the differing significance of imputed psychiatric versus physiologic characteristics, this debate continues between differing specialisms but it is notable that the practioners of just one specialism continue to talk (without providing evidence) in terms of the condition being controversial and that this specialism (psychiatry/psychology or indeed primarily a single English dominated school of thinking – BPS) has in recent years lost ground in the research focus and funding. Neither of two major reports published by respectively the US NIH and IOM http://annals.org/article.aspx?articleid=2322800 and http://www.nap.edu/catalog/19012/beyond-myalgic-encephalomyelitischronic-fatigue-syndrome-redefining-an-illness in the last 18 months referes to CFS as controversial.
Comments on the general issues of medical controversies and on the specific case of CFS would be welcome. Particularly on the appropriateness of removing the CFS article from the medical controversies category, and/or the creation of a medical controversies(Historical) category. --In Vitro Infidelium (talk) 16:28, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
- CFS should be removed from the medical controversies category...IMO--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 23:01, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
- For WP purposes, this doesn't seem a matter of philosophy, but of reliable sources. Here is a 2015 Lancet article on the controversies surrounding CFS. Here is a 2015 Lancet position paper on the IOM report, which says "The authors of the report hope that the new name will send a signal to clinicians and patients, and could be the first step towards a widespread change of attitude". That's a medical journal hoping clinicians pay attention to the report's recommendations and the fact that there is a position piece in a an important medical journal shows this is still a big controversy within the medical community. Here is a 2015 news article in Science about the PACE controversy and some of those challenging the studies are researchers. Again if this makes it to the Science news section, it is still controversial. My hope is that IOM, Cochrane, and NIH reports will go some way toward establishing consensus within the medical community. But it seems clear from MEDRS that the controversy isn't over yet. --Mark viking (talk) 00:46, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
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- From a philosophy perspective there is indeed a question regarding semantics and what “controversy” means in the context of an encyclopaedia. There is more to the issue than a simple question of RS. When (for an encyclopaedia) does the normal level of academic or professional difference of opinion become controversial ? If we were to accept a test of any difference of view as constituting a “controversy” then the whole of theoretical physics would be one enormous and near perpetual ‘controversy’, yet to for encyclopaedia such a classification would clearly be absurd. Certainly (as I acknowledged above) differences of clinical opinion and research perspectives regarding CFS exist, but the question is whether these constitute a medical controversy. The fact that one medical specialism has a narrative (exemplified by Prins et al 2006) in which CFS is consistently presented as “controversial” does not make for a controversy, likewise for one journal and its editor to favour one research perspective does not constitute a balance of MEDRS (Open Letter to The Lancet). And news, even scientific news, by the very nature of the overriding character of the news media, inevitably provides a presentation that heavily weights for ‘controversy’ where only common difference of opinion is in play. The semantic and encyclopaedic question is firstly what is it that constitutes “controversy” ? Only once that is addressed then can we answer the question of whether (for Wikipedia) CFS is as whole subject a medical controversy, or whether elements attaching to CFS are separately ‘controversies’ or whether these attached issues are merely part of the general progress of medical science. --In Vitro Infidelium (talk) 11:03, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
RfC on: should Timothy Leary be described as a "philosopher"?
There is an RfC at Talk:Timothy Leary here. Skyerise (talk) 18:11, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
Neutral notification of move discussion
There is a discussion underway to move the article Martin Luther King, Jr. Day (with a single comma) to Martin Luther King Jr. Day. Please share your opinion on the matter at Talk:Martin Luther King, Jr. Day#Requested move 22 April 2016. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:08, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
I need help with a category problem
There are these two categories: (1) Category:Branches of philosophy (maybe soon called Category:Subfields of philosophy) and (2) Category:Interdisciplinary subfields of philosophy. The way I get it, (1) is for the main fields of philosophy, (2) for the crossover/fusion between philosophy and another discipline. I have no experience with philosophy and for me it seems "off", that Category:Political philosophy and Category:Social philosophy, who are fusions between social/political science and philosophy are not in (2) but in (1). Is is because of history/tradition? Would suggest me to start a discussion at Wikipedia:CFD to restructure them into (2)? – CN1 (talk) 23:25, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
- Both seem to be sub-fields of philosophy. BabyJonas (talk) 12:07, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
Ever since my timid contribution to negated existence was bluntly dismissed by User:Blue_Mist_1 (see User_talk:Blue_Mist_1#nonexistence, diff), I have been struggling to put something together that somehow provides a bigger view of the topic. The sciences have come a long way since Parmenides put forward his view of the world, after all, and I am convinced that so far we have a blind spot here that should be addressed by WP. May I kindly ask the community to contribute to User:Kku/Nonexistence? You may notice that I think there is more to it than what can be said from the philosophical side. You are free to improve (or critizise) those parts as well if you feel inclined. Thanks for many interesting contributions in advance. -- Kku 10:20, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
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