Contents
- 1 SonofSetanta
- 2 Anonymous user known as 71.191.*.*, 96.231.*.*, 96.241.*.*, etc.
- 3 One Night In Hackney
- 4 Historylover4
- 5 Arbitration enforcement action appeal by FergusM1970
- 6 Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Domer48
- 7 Volunteer Marek and MyMoloboaccount
- 7.1 Request concerning Volunteer Marek and MyMoloboaccount
- 7.2 Discussion concerning Volunteer Marek and MyMoloboaccount
- 7.3 Result concerning Volunteer Marek and MyMoloboaccount
- 8 Arbitration enforcement action appeal by SonofSetanta
SonofSetanta
Closed - SonofSetanta is topic banned from WP:TROUBLES related articles for 4 months per this AE thread. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning SonofSetanta
My apologies for editing an article three hours within the time restriction for 1RR. As noted I have self reverted. It is nice to know my mistakes will be pointed out quickly. I feel quite privileged to have my own watchkeeper. SonofSetanta (talk) 12:34, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
Discussion concerning SonofSetantaStatement by SonofSetantaFirstly: the article 7 July 2005 London bombings is not covered by the 1RR restriction, it is under the 3RR rule. Secondly: If I am guilty of breaking 1RR so is the complainant for his reversions here [[2]] and here [[3]]. SonofSetanta (talk) 16:49, 6 August 2012 (UTC) Additional information: It needs to be noted that this complaint is part of a campaign of edit warring which the complainant and several others are part of and has resulted in the complainant making three separate cases on this page against me, FergusM1970 and Flexdream. What we are seeing here is gaming on a major scale with the intended result being the subversion of the Wiki. SonofSetanta (talk) 16:53, 6 August 2012 (UTC) Comments by others about the request concerning SonofSetantaStatement by Domer48All articles related to The Troubles, defined as: any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland falls under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24 hour period). When in doubt, assume it is related. The editor is well aware of this.--Domer48'fenian' 16:57, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
However, the editor has never used the talk page, ever and if they did it was not under their current user name? --Domer48'fenian' 21:03, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
@Cailil: This is will probably not endear me with Arbcom, but can I just say this: The 1RR is an Arbcom imposed sanction! Now Arbcom was not set up to police the articles that have editing restrictions, the editors do that. When like now we have editors who repeatedly violate Arbcom imposed sanctions, it is the editors of these articles who come here with a report and Arbcom do the rest. A simple rule for those who want to avoid snactions, is simple, don't violate them. I've engaged in the discussions with these editors, and its a lot more frustrating than anything on this page. If Arbcom had of addressed the first report, I seriously doubt that we would have had the continued disruption we have now. No offense! --Domer48'fenian' 15:51, 11 August 2012 (UTC) @Cailil: RE: "boomerang" I've no problem with that, if in fact the report is frivolous and there was in fact no violation. But it would seem very arbitrary to sanction an editor who filed a 1rr Arbcom imposed sanction. If for example I was a returning editor, with a clean slate, fresh start an all that, and I acted the maggot, I could understand were your coming from. But my less than glowing record, most of which were reversed, is something I have not ran away from, and I've edited away without a report or any sanctions. --Domer48'fenian' 16:14, 11 August 2012 (UTC) Statement by Jon C.This is getting beyond a joke. You're a big boy, Mr Hackney, can't you settle your own disputes without constantly running to the admins? This is not what AE is supposed to be used for. — JonCॐ 19:06, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
Statement by FergusM1970This is the third time this editor has gone to AE in the past four days, all to do with 1RR violations and all to do with edits which have presented an image of the IRA which he happens not to like. On no occasion has he engaged in any attempt to find a compromise or discuss meaningfully on talk pages, preferring to accuse the other party of not knowing what they are talking about. When I raised a DRN in an attempt to solve a content dispute he ignored it, and only became involved in mediation after admins dealing with his complaint against me began expressing a desire for a resolution to the dispute rather than AE action. At the same time he contributes little or no content to Wikipedia himself; his edit history consists almost entirely of reverts. It seems likely that his only aim is to push his own POV regarding the Troubles and that he is not above gaming WP rules to do so.--FergusM1970 (talk) 21:09, 6 August 2012 (UTC) Statement by FlexdreamDomer quotes that "All articles related to The Troubles, defined as: any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland falls under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24 hour period). When in doubt, assume it is related." An article on the London 7/7 bombings, which has no Irish connection or dimension, cannot reasonably be construed as being related to The Troubles, Irish nationalism, and British nationalism in relation to Ireland. 1RR does not apply. This rush to AE is an abuse of process and should be treated accordingly. --Flexdream (talk) 23:56, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
Comment by Son of SetantaI would call on adjudicating editors to be aware of the Statement by Steven Zhang above (under the FergusM1970 complaint) which states clearly that the editors in opposition here, including the complainant, have refused to take part in dispute resolution regarding the complaint against Fergus. With this knowledge it should be obvious to anyone that resolution is not the agenda of Hackney and his associates. Rather we are seeing attempts to subvert the Wiki to their own aim - the glorification of the Provisional IRA. This has been going on for years but so far the well intended volunteers who do their best to police the Wiki have been unable to find a solution to it. I would respectfully suggest a very long term ban on Hackney for a start and perhaps the same for Domer48. These two seem to be the main exponents of the bullying which stops other editors from removing POV from articles which contain references to the Provisional IRA. SonofSetanta (talk) 12:19, 7 August 2012 (UTC) * I also respectfully submit that perhaps adjudicators might examine the number of 1RR complaints made by all particpiants in this discussion on articles relating to the Troubles. I believe the results would be quite interesting. SonofSetanta (talk) 12:56, 7 August 2012 (UTC) Comment by CrystalfileHow does this have anything to do with IRA? One night in Hackney claims this one sentence is the link - "More people were killed by the bombings than in any single Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) attack during The Troubles" and even he removes this from the article! http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=7_July_2005_London_bombings&diff=prev&oldid=506086508 He is trying to get editor in trouble unfairly. @CalilI have not breached 1RR. The London Bombings are a 3RR page. On the other occasion where I inadvertantly breached 1RR on another page I reverted myself with an apology. Could you outline please anywhere where you allege I have actually breached the protocol? SonofSetanta (talk) 16:56, 8 August 2012 (UTC) Dispute resolution has now been requested by me here [Republican Army] to try and resolve the issue I am involved in. I respectfully suggest that adjudication here be suspended pending the outcome of such resolution. SonofSetanta (talk) 17:14, 8 August 2012 (UTC) @Calil I honestly can't see how claiming the London Bombings page is wikilawering and request you withdraw such a spurious comment. The page is not about the Northern Ireland Troubles. Simple as that. The reference to PIRA was simply a bit of interest and I couldn't understand why it was continually deleted. I've lost interest in it now anyway. SonofSetanta (talk) 17:29, 8 August 2012 (UTC) @Calil. I included your page on the DRN as a courtesy. You are involved in a discussion concerning the subject matter. No disrespect is intended, just courtesy. I am truly sorry you have misinterpreted my efforts. SonofSetanta (talk) 17:32, 8 August 2012 (UTC) I would respectfully request comment from other sysops on this matter. I feel I am being corralled because I made one mistake which I immediately reverted. The other issue is abundantly clear. I made two or three edits on a 3RR page - nothing to do with the Irish troubles. SonofSetanta (talk) 17:22, 9 August 2012 (UTC) @ Seraphimblade. I did not however bring a Troubles related item to a 3RR page. I reintroduced a fact which did not alter the status of the article in any way. We have to accept that the Troubles happened and there are statistics out there concerning the general British public which, while referring to the Troubles, do not make the article Troubles related. I could have used statistics from the Blitz but it wouldn't make the article Blitz-related. I feel that's a better analogy. The fact remains that this is, in my humble opinion, a spurious complaint by someone who regularly uses 1RR complaints to control editors whose prose he doesn't like. I request that the matter be closed and warnings issued. SonofSetanta (talk) 14:02, 10 August 2012 (UTC) @Calil. I do not wish to appear disrespectful but I would be remiss if I didn't point out that you are an Irish editor and whilst I extend every good faith to you, as I hope you do to I, your input could be misconstrued, as mine is. I would also respectfully ask you to note that every case here has been made by a certain group of editors who have violation histories of their own. My own opinion is that I, Fergus and Flexdream should be guided through this difficult time in our editing history with Wikipedia. The people making the complaints should receive some guidance as well to avoid turning minor infringements into complaints in the future. SonofSetanta (talk) 15:47, 11 August 2012 (UTC) @Calil. I have no wish to breach any Wikipedia etiquette but I would like my own edits to be taken in good faith. The people who are complaining about me here are the same people who hounded me on the Ulster Defence Regiment page when I was a novice editor just six months ago. I have returned to edit in my areas of interest and whilst I may have made one or two silly mistakes my intentions are good but I have been set about by the same people, all of whom have long histories in edit warring on Troubles articles. As you can see by the way I've engaged recently my behaviour pattern is not the same as it was eight months ago. I have taken deep breaths and not become personally involved. I am less quick to react and taking on board every piece of advice given to me. I would appreciate your guidance too in adapting a style of editing which suits the more controversial articles. I can't do that however when my every move is watched and my every mistake reported as a misdemeanour. Have you looked at some of the articles I have written, or the ones where I have successfully edited without difficulty? That is the type of effort I am bringing to the table here - not an edit warring style. SonofSetanta (talk) 16:22, 11 August 2012 (UTC) @ Seraphimblade. With respect but you are mistaken. There is no battleground mentality on my part. Just a fear that I am being gamed into a corner for these marginal difficulties. All my edits are being made in good faith and I'd like to see evidence from the other particpants on the articles that they accept this rather than reporting me for every little thing and refusing to take part in DRN. SonofSetanta (talk) 12:21, 13 August 2012 (UTC) Now that the other complaint has been closed I request that this one be as well. The comments by sysops on the other one were clear, these were marginal errors held up by the complainant as deliberate edit warring. There has been no perpetuation of that by me and I respectfully seek closure. SonofSetanta (talk) 16:08, 14 August 2012 (UTC) After a six month voluntary break I was expecting an easier ride but hey ho. If sanctions for all are what it takes to calm down this gaming then I volunteer to be included to show fair play. SonofSetanta (talk) 15:52, 15 August 2012 (UTC) Result concerning SonofSetanta
@SoS: It is highly inappropriate to equate a person's place of birth with a point of view, that kind of ad hominem has no place on this site as it is a breach both of our talk page guidelines and civility policies. I will remind you that british sysops like HJ Mitchell also enforce WP:TROUBLEs because where any us come from has ZERO bearing on the issues. None of us are "involved" in a content issue related to the subject, none of us have ever edited in that topic area, and our decisions are being made as a group rather than individually. Anyone's place of birth has precisely zero bearing on your conduct, and you are not helping yourself by engaging in such remarks. I will advise you that no matter how politely phrased a personal attack is it remains incivil--Cailil talk 16:11, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
Closed per above [11]--Cailil talk 13:28, 17 August 2012 (UTC) |
Anonymous user known as 71.191.*.*, 96.231.*.*, 96.241.*.*, etc.
This IP-hopping user is already banned from the Shakespeare authorship question, so further action here is unnecessary. Report any further problems at RFPP or AIV. EdJohnston (talk) 15:44, 17 August 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Request concerning Anonymous user known as 71.191.*.*, 96.231.*.*, 96.241.*.*, etc.
Ever since their topic ban was instated, this user has continued to make extremely POV edits on the subject, denouncing administrative action against him or her as censorship and insisting on promoting a fringe view over the view of all reliable sources. Their numerous edit wars and ranting on the talk page have been extremely disruptive to Oxfordian theory of Shakespeare authorship in particular, and further action needs to be taken to help this user become a productive member of the community. - Cal Engime (talk) 07:51, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Anonymous user known as 71.191.*.*, 96.231.*.*, 96.241.*.*, etc.Statement by Anonymous user known as 71.191.*.*, 96.231.*.*, 96.241.*.*, etc.Comments by others about the request concerning Anonymous user known as 71.191.*.*, 96.231.*.*, 96.241.*.*, etc.Note that this user has created many other accounts with names that copy, parody or attack the user-names of editors he opposes. See Category:Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_HenryVIIIyes. The user is utterly impervious to argument or to appeals to policy. He adopts the manner of a quasi-religious fanatic. Paul B (talk) 10:17, 15 August 2012 (UTC) Although I don't think administrators can effectively prevent the user from editing due to his constantly changing IP, I understand that a series of token blocks could pave the way for escalation to action with his ISP through WP:ABUSE if the abusive behaviour continues. Correct me if I'm wrong. - Cal Engime (talk) 18:18, 15 August 2012 (UTC) Result concerning Anonymous user known as 71.191.*.*, 96.231.*.*, 96.241.*.*, etc.
It's pretty clear it's him again, and he's about as banished from the topic as Falstaff from King Hal, but what exactly can we do about him, apart from semiprotections and short-term blocks? Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:01, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
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One Night In Hackney
Request declined--Cailil talk 13:30, 17 August 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
This editor has a history of agressive editing on articles concerning The Troubles. He has recently made several frivolous complaints on this page about editors whom he wishes to remove from articles concerning the Troubles. He is therefore well aware of the Arbcom sanctions and the path of conduct necessary to allow discussion and concensus on articles. Instead of joining the discussion on the talk page he made a sweeping condemnation of the work of three other editors here Talk:Provisional_Irish_Republican_Army#Totally_disagree_with_the_new_lead and removed approximately 40 edits by the three editors involved in discussion on the article. I am aware of recent discussions concerning using this page as a weapon to resolve contentious disagreements. I can assure admins this isn't the case. I am greatly concerned that this one man seems to believe he can exercise such ownership of an article that he can make such sweeping changes without discussion with others who were working hard to arrive at concensus.
Discussion concerning One Night In HackneyStatement by One Night In HackneyFrivolous. SonofSetanta tried the same flawed argument that one edit equals several reverts at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive107#Arbitration enforcement action appeal by SonofSetanta. It appears my comment from there of "If, for a second, we accepted SonofSetanta's notion that one edit equals four reverts if it happens to revert four edits at the same time, surely that would mean by making four edits in one day he is attempting to game 1RR by making so many edits they cannot be reverted without breaching 1RR? Food for thought..." needs to be repeated just so it isn't missed. The same archive also contains similar frivolous reports at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive107#One Night in Hackney and Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive107#Mo ainm where anyone who dares to make a single revert of SonofSetanta's edits are reported, and it was making frivolous reports such as that which resulted in SonofSetanta being banned from filing AE reports. 2 lines of K303 11:18, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning One Night In HackneyComment by Son of SetantaIn addition to the complaint I note that User:Mo aimn has again reverted the article here (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Provisional_Irish_Republican_Army&diff=507516697&oldid=507514709). This appears to be tag teaming and although I am continuing in the discussion I do not think it is the correct way to behave on contentious articles. I request that sysops who look at this complaint take an overview of the work which has been done under discussion and the forcing through of Hackney and Mo's POV. I will not edit war but I do not wish to be gamed. SonofSetanta (talk) 11:42, 15 August 2012 (UTC) @Calil. In all sincerity if I didn't think there was a case then I wouldn't have taken the risk of posting a complaint. One edit (shown in the diff above) by Hackney culled about 40 edits by three editors who were calmly and productively improving the article. At best that's 2 violations of 1RR, at worst it's 39 (approx). I restored the last discussed version and opened dialogue on the talk page. Mo aimn immediately reverted my changes with no attempt at discussion - that's edit warring and deserves a sanction. It's very difficult to show good faith in this situation. The edits removed were largely well written and well sourced or, as in the case of the lead, taken from the main body of the article. I see that Flexdream made a change to retore the information under the heading "sectarianism" which was immediately reverted by TheOldJacobite. Forgive me for asking but my understanding of the sanctions imposed by Arbcom is that they are to stop edit warring on articles and to encourage editors to discuss and agree. Can you see this happening here or do you think, as I do, that there is a gaming strategy in place to prevent honest editors from including information which doesn't show the Provisional IRA in a good light? As things stand the article is uneditable by editors who don't have a Troubles POV as there will be more minions standing by to revert their edits. I want nothing to do with behaviour like this but the only remedy open to me is to raise the problem here. SonofSetanta (talk) 12:31, 15 August 2012 (UTC) @Calil. Concerning your comment about sanctions: if that's what you think it needs then I accept that. I don't feel I breached 1RR deliberately and I reverted myself when it was alleged I had. I didn't on the London Bombing article because I felt (and still feel) it was 3RR. You're the sysop though and I think I've done all I can to announce my good intentions. Furthermore I successfully resisted attempts to game me into an edit war on the PIRA article vis-a-vis this complaint. If that doesn't demonstrate my preferred behavioural pattern I don't know what can. Plus, as you can see, another complaint on this page about me was closed as it was frivolous but it had the effect of establishing me as a troublemaker to sysops. SonofSetanta (talk) 16:00, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Comment by RolandREven if this had been forty consecutive edits, it would still not have been forbidden. "A "revert" means any edit (or administrative action) that reverses the actions of other editors, in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material. It can involve as little as one word. A series of consecutive saved revert edits by one user with no intervening edits by another user counts as one revert." It is genuinely hard to see how the initiator of this request misinterpreted policy so wildly. RolandR (talk) 13:17, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Comment by IRWolfie-The diff shown of removing bold changes (that he reverted a number of small edits is irrelevant, it's still only a single revert), is not particularly contentious, and is standard operating procedure per WP:BRD. What is not standard is re-inserting changes [12] after they are reverted (particularly after I asked him not to do that in a previous discussion: User_talk:IRWolfie-#Provisional_IRA). For example, SonofSetanta has been quite adamant about changing or altering the common names: "The Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA) (Irish: Óglaigh na hÉireann)", despite a lack of consensus and a lack of significant discussion, and has made the changes a number of times recently. [13][14][15][16]. My involvement with the topic is that I was (briefly) a DRN volunteer for a filling about the topic. The DRN didn't get off the ground as not many participated. In summary, I think this particular filing is a case of blowing something innocuous out of proportion over a content dispute.IRWolfie- (talk) 12:59, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Comment by ΤασουλαMay I suggest that the two editors simply keep their distance from one another..? Unless they agree to stop coming here and filing reports and just try to resolve conflicts on talk pages. --Τασουλα (talk) 22:57, 15 August 2012 (UTC) Result concerning One Night In Hackney
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Historylover4
Indefinitely blocked. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 23:55, 19 August 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Historylover4
A review of Historylover4's Talk page shows a history of edit-warring on articles related to Israel and Palestine that dates to September 2011. Historylover4's contributions to this discussion also make for interesting reading. I believe a topic ban would be appropriate.
Discussion concerning Historylover4Statement by Historylover4Comments by others about the request concerning Historylover4I think this diff proves that the user hasn't come to edit here in neutral and collaborative way [18]--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 17:42, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Considering R1a1 and haplogroup Q prove the Khazar hypothesis true I don't know why your claiming I'm "enamored" with anything. And scholar Eran Elhaik, PhD from John Hopkins University who yet again demonstrated the reliability of the Khazaria hypothesis and the only "response" offered (and quickly put up by Zionist propagandists here) is "information" from a BLOG!! Yet with people citing the geographer Jared Diamond as a supposed "source" on Jewish people against actual geneticists [19][20][21] what else can be expected from Zionist propagandists like you guys.Historylover4 (talk) 17:57, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
Can the admins check out this account, which may be a possible sockpuppet of Historylover4? The names are very similar and he/she jumps straight into a highly controversial topic, apparently knowing (more or less, as the refs aren't proper) how to edit on Wikipedia, on articles relating to I-P, using a load of weasel words, personal statements, and "Zionist narrative," which reminds me of the comments above "Zionist propagandists." Thanks. --Activism1234 17:44, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
On Y-chromosomal Aaron this user has been pushing a highly controversial source to back up an otherwise non-notable (or at least non-noted) opinion. The phrasing has been non-NPOV and revert warring started despite an attempt to discuss the issue on the talk page. JFW | T@lk 21:08, 19 August 2012 (UTC) Result concerning Historylover4
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by FergusM1970
Appeal granted. The portion of the topic ban levied against FergusM1970 which prohibited editing in the area of British baronets is lifted. The remainder of sanctions remain in effect. We should also discuss whether to remove these from the standard wording altogether, as it seems the area is no longer a trouble spot. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:35, 18 August 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by FergusM1970I was topic banned from all Troubles-related articles for 6 months as per the discussion at [24]. I am not challenging this ban as I understand the reasoning behind it and accept that my behaviour fell below the acceptable standard. However the ban has been extended to two further areas in which I am not aware of any issues, namely the Ulster Banner (which I understand may be seen as Troubles-related, so am not appealing) and British baronets. The latter seems irrelevant to the Troubles, I do not see why I have been banned from editing on the topic and I would like to appeal against this part of the sanction.--FergusM1970Let's play Freckles 15:02, 17 August 2012 (UTC) @T. Canens, the impression I got was that Vintagekits had been edit-warring on that topic as well as on the Troubles, which is why he was banned from both. It does seem a bit odd to link them for every case.--FergusM1970Let's play Freckles 21:42, 17 August 2012 (UTC) Statement by CaililPer Tim's comments below: I've no problem with this part being lifted, I was just using the standard wording--Cailil talk 21:49, 17 August 2012 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by FergusM1970Result of the appeal by FergusM1970
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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Domer48
Appeal denied. NW (Talk) 20:00, 18 August 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.
To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).
Statement by Domer48
The above diff's offer a timeline which will explain why I'm appealing this topic ban. An issue arose in relation to a report I filed against an editor who violated an Arbcom imposed sancton, which suggested that AE had not got the scope to impose such a sanction under Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles. The editor was topic banned, and a motion was passed to clear out any uncertainty as to its scope that superseded "all extant remedies" of this case, "as amended and clarified" and placed under an 1RR rule under the authority of #Standard discretionary sanctions. A new section for notices, was added to Requests for arbitration/The Troubles since TROUBLES was now under standard discretionary sanctions with the following text added:
In addition a 'Guide to enforcement' in the light of the Committee's Oct. 27 motion superseding the old remedies was also added. And the section was then re-written. The updated Troubles template which can be added to articles is here. It clearly states that prior to any sanctions being imposed that I should have been given a warning, and I should have been told what I was doing wrong (counseled) with a supporting diff of any edits of mine which were felt to be objectionable and I should have been placed on the List of editors placed on notice which I was not. I would also note that I have still not been placed on it. I even asked for (counseling) from the Arb who imposed the ban, and still have not got a reply. I also find this discussion very disturbing, that the Arb who imposed the ban all be it in conjunction with a number of Arbs, is now looking for clarity on the ban they have already imposed. This should really have been done first, I would have thought. There was already a motion on the Troubles to clarify the sanctions which could be imposed and I've linked to above. I do not have any problem with Cailil at all. I think that they are doing a thankless job, and is doing it the best way they can. I have no problem with being sanctioned if I deserve it. If my name was on the list of editors placed on notice I could possibly understand the ban. I'd still look for offending diff's but that neither here nor there. I hope I've come across as being reasonable, and I'm more than willing to discuss the Threads which have brought us here, but I'd really like this issue to be addressed first if thats ok.
Statement by CaililAs per the above on SonofSetanta I closed a thread and enacted a decision of a consensus of uninvolved sysops[25] - this was not an individual action.
Statement by (involved editor 1)I'm calling myself involved as i highlighted Domer48s questionable edit summary they made when reverting an edit of FergusM1970. Which i pointed out above in FergusM1970s enforcement discussion due to the possibility of hounding and a possible attempt to bait Fergus into further edit-warring. Why am i commenting here? Because i don't believe Domer48 is correct when they say they are "very conscious" of the edits they make. Reason being not only the questionable revert and edit summary they got in trouble for but due to their quickness to fully revert sourced edits and reinsert incorrect information: [26], the edit summary also didn't entrely add up either. See here for the problems of his edit and summary of Domer48s. From what i gather above, it was edits like this that got Domer48 added to the list of editors to face sanctions. Mabuska (talk) 12:02, 18 August 2012 (UTC) Statement by (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Domer48Result of the appeal by Domer48
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Volunteer Marek and MyMoloboaccount
Attention: This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Request concerning Volunteer Marek and MyMoloboaccount
sig to prevent premature archiving by bot: Skäpperöd (talk) 10:30, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Volunteer Marek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) and MyMoloboaccount (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log)
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Discretionary sanctions (DIGWUREN)
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
Summary
Volunteer Marek (VM) and Molobo have already been subject to many sanctions (sysop decisions, 3RR, EEML arbitration remedies and AE) for disruptive behavior, including blocks, 1RRs, civility paroles, a topic ban (VM) and a permaban (Molobo). Some of these sanctions resulted from them harassing me, and/or offline coordination. I edit this project since 2007, my record is clean. From April to July this year, I was taking a wikibreak.
When I returned, I received a wikimail from VM, calling me a shithead and making a reference to Molobo getting annoying when encouraged. I had not interacted with VM after returning from my break. Molobo was still taking a wikibreak. On the day I received the mail, me and another editor (HerkusMonte) who was harrassed by VM and Molobo before, edited the article "Königsberg."
VM then came to the article, reverted a lot (incl 3RR breach), assumed bad faith from the beginning, and insulted me on the talk page. Later, Molobo returned from his wikibreak to revert articles where I or HM had edited before to ultimatively arrive at the Königsberg article.
Details and diffs
Volunteer Marek (VM) has e-mailed me via wikipediamail on 28 Jul 2012 and called me a "shithead," said that he missed me, and that I'd encourage Molobo to get annoying. I am willing to forward this mail to a sysop, but I want to know first how this appropriately (i.e. legally) works. When I received this mail, I had not come across VM or Molobo for months, I haven't even edited between 5 April and 19 July at all, Molobo has not edited during the last months either. I had (?) however been a target of a subgroup of the WP:EEML, where VM and Molobo were (?) active members.
On the same day I received the e-mail, I edited the article Königsberg. VM has only edited this article before to twice revert an IP and do a minor edit on 11 Dec 2011, 2 Jan 2011, and also 2 Jan 2012, so I did not interfere with him at that point. A user had added a large, unsourced piece of text to the article [27], which three other users - Herkus Monte (HM), M.K. and an IP objected to because of WP:UNDUE and the lack of sources [28] [29][30]. My first edits were one minor c/e [31] and adding a reference to a corrected sentence [32]. Then HM made a few other edits.
Thereafter, VM came to the article and already in the first 24 hours violated 3RR:
- 31 Jul 2012 6:52 VM "joins" editing with a revert of HM ([33])
- 31 Jul 2012 14:54 VM reverts HM ([34])
- 31 Jul 2012 16:41 VM reverts HM and IP ([35]), "battleground" accusation in e/s
- 1 Aug 2012 6:16 VM reverts HM ([36])
More reverts followed.
My further edits to the article were:
- [37] (reverted/altered by VM [38] re-introducing wrong refs, and [39], alterations not in source)
- [40], [41], [42], [43], [44]
- [45] (reverted by VM [46], reintroducing wrong refs)
- [47] (reverted by VM [48])
- [49] (reverted by VM [50])
- [51] (reverted by VM [52]).
That means that VM reverted half of my edits. I stopped editing the article.
What triggered this AE request is the following talk page posting I read this morning, where VM attacks me as follows:
- 3 Aug 2012: "You're lying your ass off," "little fake-diff," "you engage in these kind of deceitful tactics regularly," "*YOU* are misrepresenting the Bock source," "you're mistaking 'UNDUE' with 'IDONTLIKEIT'," "it's the same nationalist little group that's been running rough shod over Wikipedia content policies for years," "tag teaming," "your knee-jerk mindless support of your fellow POV pusher," "ganging up on me just to gang up"
I have not responded to that anymore and withdrew from the article.
Examples from VM's first talk page contributions directed at various editors, showing that ABF was there from the beginning, are
- 31 Jul 2012 VM's first post to talk page: attacks HM with "tendentious and battleground-y," "battleground" and motivated by "IDONTLIKEIT"
- [53] accusing HM of POV-pushing and double standard
- [54] accusing HM of bad faith and disruption
- [55] accusation of tag teaming
- [56] accusing M.K of "instead of mindlessly reverting and removing sourced text you actually try and do some constructive work"
- [57] accusation of "trying to sabotage good faithed attempts"
- [58] "Sorry to get all bad faith on you, but I know bait when I see it - this is just mindless tag-teamed reverts trying to draw me into a 3RR violation"
- and so on
Volunteer Marek has also assumed bad faith, insulted and accused other people recently (Jimbo got annoyed too [59]) so it is not just me but a general problem, as his block log and these random reactions indicate [60] [61] [62] [63] [64] [65] [66] [67] [68].
I also can not accept the addition of references which do not support the sentences referenced to them: In this post I compared in detail sources VM added to four sentences, and they do not match. VM did look in the source again, as is obvious from the diff before, and still restored it after my removal, so that it is now in the protected version - making wp not only unreliable, but misleading.
VM further engaged in a kind of retaliatory tagging: He announced that unsourced sentences of the newly added section could only be removed when all other sentences lacking references would be removed, too (31 Jul 2012 16:40), and started to tag as cn various sentences throughout the article which did not have an inline ref [69] [70] [71] [72] [73], thereby overlooking the fact that there are a lot of references given, just not inline but in the section for sources, and that most (all?) of these sentences have been in there and stable for years. Just before the article was protected, he started to remove sentences tagged by him, e.g. [74].
Molobo, VM's tag team partner from the EEML, who was mentioned in VM's e-mail (28 Jul) as getting annoying when "encouraged," has not edited since 7 April. Let's look at his first contributions upon returning one by one:
- [75] Molobo returned to editing on 4 Aug, reverting a move HM had made ([76])
- [77] Molobo reverted an edit of mine ([78]) (breaking the ref fmt btw)
- [79] then reverted some edits from an article where the EEML had attacked me before (was subject to the EEML arbcom and is in the evidence and in VM's FoFs of that case), last edit before Molobo was made by HM
- [80] Molobo returned to previous article and makes another edit [81] to a talkpage
- [82] Molobo arrived at the Königsberg article
I do not believe that Molobo returned from his break by coincidence just to revert HM, then revert me, then go straight to the Königsberg article, given the content of VM's email and the recorded history of VM's and Molobo's cooperation within the EEML.
I do not want to have to put up with all that again and again. Skäpperöd (talk) 21:58, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
- Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
both editors have been subject to EEML
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
The evidence submitted by me shows that
- (1) VM's and Molobo's attitude towards me (and others) is confrontational and bad faithed.
- (2) The confrontation with me was unprovoked.
- (3) The confrontation with me was announced.
- (4) The confrontation with me goes along with massive insults.
Further, as the (largely off-wiki) evidence of the EEML case shows, this bullying of mine primarily by these persons (VM and Molobo) has been going on for a long long time, and I can not accept that my return from a break is answered by these two editors with an announced attack. I am an editor in perfectly good standing. I have created numerous articles for the benefit of the project. My block log is clean. The editors bullying me on the other hand have a long history of disruption.
This goes straight against the very idea of wikipedia and heavily impacts my ability to edit. I ask the sysops here to consider scenarios to change that. One scenario would be re-instating Molobo's permaban and VM's EE-topic ban, making it permanent this time. Another scenario would be to prohibit VM and Molobo from interacting with me (and possibly others, e.g. HM; M.K asked for that too, below) in any way, i.e. prohibit them from talking to me, editing the same articles, talking about me.
History of disruption by VM and Molobo
Molobo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) aka MyMoloboaccount (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · edit filter log · block user · block log) was already in 2008 identified as the alter ego of the nationalist forumtroll Shade2 [83] (IPs and behavioral evidence) [84] (behavioral evidence) [85] (confirmation by meanwhile retired sysop). He was identified as sockpuppeteer [86] [87]. He has an extensive block log [88]. He was permabanned [89]. The permaban was lifted only conditionally [90]. He was active in the EEML, especially with respect to hounding and harassing me, but not blocked as he was at that time already blocked for socking (1 year for socking with a throw-away account used to harass me [91]). He is subject to the general remedies of the EEML case though [92], his contrary statement is false. (placeholder)
In response to VM's post below: This is not a content dispute, but a behavioral issue, and sysops should, in this respect, consider the WP:EEML case where Volunteer Marek aka Radeksz was subject to, especially with respect to hounding and harassing me (evidence is largely off-wiki, but part of it is accessible in the "Disruption"-FoF at Wikipedia:EEML#Radeksz), the conditions under which his remedies were eased, his block log, and previous AE requests where he was sanctioned:
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive62#Radeksz "Radeksz blocked 12 h"
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive54#Radeksz "Radeksz warned not to leave aggressive messages related to topics from which he is banned."
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive66#Russavia "Radeksz blocked for 72 hours, all editors with Eastern Europe-related sanctions banned from the article at issue."
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive40#Matthead Radeksz subject to voluntary 1RR, "and may also become subject to formal sanctions if he does not."
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive85#Jacurek Volunteer Marek "six months renaming ban as described below; warning for expressing what sounds like nationalist prejudice on this page"
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive89#Volunteer_Marek "Volunteer Marek warned for incivility."
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive111#Russavia "Volunteer Marek blocked 2 weeks."
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive41#Smith2006 "also warned Radeksz for edit-warring on the same article, Jan Dzierżon"
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive101#Russavia "Volunteer Marek blocked for interaction ban violation."
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive42 Radeksz "placed on 1RR" - later vacated in error (evidence in the EEML case)
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive86#Leidseplein "warning Leidseplein to abide by the following principles enunciated by the Arbitration Committee. They apply, of course, to Volunteer Marek and others as well, and this warning is not to be construed as an endorsement of any inappropriate conduct by Volunteer Marek or others." (principles listed include "atmosphere of camaraderie and mutual respect among contributors." "Uncivil behavior by others should not be returned in kind." "Personal attacks are expressly prohibited." "Noncompliance with these principles and other rules of conduct may result in sanctions."
Re: Misrepresentation of sources
I provide some response for that "misrepresentation of sources"-thing only for sysops to evaluate whether I actually did so or not, and whether my insistence is justified on the instance that VM's references were not actually sourcing what they were supposed to.
- VM insists below that the references added by him were fine. I encourage sysops to evaluate the following analysis of mine to decide whether I am "lying my ass off" as VM said or not. Diffs, quotes and links to the sources are included:
Response to VM, detailed analysis of his references not sourcing the sentences they had been added to |
---|
lines sourced to Wodecki/Krasovec by you [93] [94] and removed by me [95] (e/s "per failed verification for the most part") were
Obviously, the source does not support what you sourced to it. Apart from that, it was not published in 1988, the author was Wodecki not Krašovec, and bare urls are not recommended as refs. Since you cited the source here, you should have noticed at least when you revisited the source that nothing in that source supports the sentences you sourced to it as I have shown in detail above. You failed to do so not only when you added the source in the first place, which is not good, but you also failed to do so when you went through the source again for your above post [96] to quote the only line from the source referencing at least something from the text (rump of the 2nd sentence), which is far worse. And then you even accuse me of being "misleading" and "not true" in my e/s about that... |
-
-
- Note to VM's response, quote "Compare the text of the article, to the text of the source as I've done in the section right above. Do they match up? Yes?". The "section right above" referred to in VM's post is this one, titled "Illustrative example of Skapperod's misreprentations". This is however the current version, not the one that was debated by me above. The current version differs, VM is comparing apples and oranges here. Also, sysops need to closely examine this, as "the source" he used in his response here [97] is not the one he used in the article! This is the current protected article version. Please compare:
- quote VM [98]: "The relevant current text of the article states: “ In 1545 in Königsberg a Polish catechism was printed by Jan Seklucjan” The source states: “In 1545 Seklucjan published a “Simple Text of the Catechism for the Simple People” [99]"
- Compare the source given here by VM (i.e. Frick) to the reference given in the article (i.e. Krasovec, ed.), it is a completely different one! The reference in the article is still the one I analyzed above and does not mention 1545 at all! In his quote from the source for the second sentence "[...] and finally in 1553 the whole New Testament in one volume", he misquoted "1533" (in the source) for "1553," which was part of my criticism above. The rest of the paragraph was rewritten/got other sources in the meantime, so no comment on that.
-
- VM's accusation [100] that I had misrepresented a source is also a serious PA. I encourage sysops to compare the source to that allegation:
"Comparison of VM's allegation to actual quotes from the source showing that I did not misrepresent the source" |
---|
|
- --> Can a German-speaking sysop please evaluate and clear me from the accusation that I have misrepresented the source and take the accusation as what it really is, a PA. Skäpperöd (talk) 07:10, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
Regarding misrepresentation by omission"-allegation: Ext. preview link to the book. Numerous authors discuss numerous details of libraries and printeries in Königsberg. That I did not include the whole book in an overview about the history of Königsberg is not misrepresentation.
Re: Cn-tags
- re VM below: "Herkus and M.K and also Skapp where at this point adding "citation needed" tags": I have to the best of my knowledge not added a single cn tag. Please provide a diff. Skäpperöd (talk) 07:39, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
-
- Update: VM has now clarified below that I did not add a single cn tag and thus his assumption was false. To the contrary, I have added sources to previously unsourced sentences, responding to the justified "unreferenced" and "undue" comments of three other users. M.K has alo denied below that they had added cn tags. About VM's own retaliatory tagging - see above.
Re: "Outing"/username
- re "outing:" A month ago, VM himself pointed out that his former username is Radeksz in a still open arbcom thread. That Radeksz is VM's former username was also often mentioned at AE, and VM said just now on my talk that it is no secret [102].
What VM referred to below is an old discussion comment by NYB in an AN/I thread, my response to that comment still stands [103]. I encourage sysops to follow that link and actually read the whole AN/I thread. VM claimed there that using his former username was outing him, and NYB in good faith made a comment w/o investigating the issue (quote NYB: "I've accepted Volunteer Marek's statement of concerns on good faith at this time; I hope that it will not be necessary to delve more deeply into the matter."). The thread however took a very different turn when I posted my response:
Actually, I had had a dispute with VM and had asked for a 3o that was provided by no other than Molobo. I protested, because I wanted an outside comment. I pointed out the on-wiki identity of VM and Molobo prior to their username changes (which happend during/after the EEML case) on my talk. Then VM ran to AN/I, called pointing to his former username "outing" and asked for an indef block of my account. If that story illustrates anything, then only that VM and Molobo have a long history of harassing me, which did not stop after the EEML case.
That Shade2 and Molobo were identified as being the same person by on-wiki revealed IP-adresses and behavioral evidence is on-wiki since 2008, I just linked it here, the RL identity of the respective user is not revealed in any of these diffs [104] [105] [106].
Even more "outing" allegations"
- 1st sentence - true, that happened while proxying for blocked Molobo, and revealed, in the final phase of the EEML case, that you continued offline coordinating with Molobo and others.
- 2nd sentence - true
- 3rd sentence - false. I took the diff (not the RL infos!) to arbcom (not "around wikipedia"), nowhere else!, and they oversighted it. Never have I "“captured” the info before it was oversighted and spread it around on Wikipedia." That is a very serious, completely unfounded charge.
- 4th sentence - false. There was nothing to oversight.
I request that the allegation contained in the 3rd and 4th sentence is withdrawn at once.
I also request that Volunteer Marek is forbidden to claim that I outed him. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:50, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
Re: previous "unfounded" AE
The AE VM referred to, concerned with what I perceived as ABF, insults etc at the Kołobrzeg article, was Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive43#Radeksz. It is true that the sysop then judged this as a content dispute requiring no action. What the sysop did not know then was that all this was part of a larger, coordinated attack by the EEML, i.e. by VM, Molobo and others, to expel me from that article (note: it is the same article where Molobo reverted just after leaving his last wikibreak, diffs above). The evidence is largely off-wiki, some on-wiki [107], part of it is accessible in the "Disruption"-FoF at Wikipedia:EEML#Radeksz.
Digging up that AE again and declare that my "standard modus operandi" does not reflect well on VM.
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Volunteer Marek and MyMoloboaccount
Statement by Volunteer Marek
This statement by Skapperod consists of his usual tactic of "diff-padding" - of providing lots of "[diff]" which are either completely irrelevant (my argument with Jimbo over unrelated matters quite some time ago), or which simply don't support what he claims they show. I'm getting a little fed up with this behavior by Skapperod which happens in relation to both sources (sources don't support what he claims) and his perennially filed AE requests (diffs don't support what he claims.
My statement was a response to a direct nasty personal attack made by Skapperod
This diff, which Skapp gives above is in response to a statement by Skapperod where he said to me and remember that you first provided false sources. This was a straight up, false, personal attack, as I had NOT provided any false sources. What happened was that User:HerkusMonte was disruptively tagging every other word of a particular section of the article (one which he didn't like) with "citation needed" tags, while the remainder of the article sat there mostly unsourced and written like crap. As a result I was trying to get the sources he was asking for into the article. He kept moving and re-adding the "citation tags" which resulted in edit-conflicts and loss of a good time's worth of work, as I had to retype numerous citations again and again (anyone who's formatted citations knows what a pain in the ass that can be). As a result, I just started adding relevant diffs to end of paragraphs rather than particular sentences, standard practice for DYK articles, just to get them "down on paper".
What Skapperod is lying about is that just because a ref I provided was at the end of the paragraph and didn't support every single claim in that paragraph (I was still working on this), I "provided false sources". I explained to him several times what had happened, and he responded, ergo, he read the explanation (and seemingly understood it). Yet here again he makes this nonsense accusation, which is soooo bad faithed that yes, I referred to it as "lying your ass off". What is worse, lying your ass off in a dispute in order to win it, or, driven by frustration, to point this out?
I take sources, and my reputation for integrity in using those very seriously, and it was clear that Skapperod's attack was completely unwarrented, bad faithed and false (false + bad faithed = ?)
This is typical battleground behavior for Skapperod.
Abuse of a source by Skapperod which prompted this exchange
Keep in mind that the section under dispute is "Poles in Konigsberg". Skapperod added this German language source to the article, although in a completely different section. I went and retrieved the source and then spend some considerable time translating it from German. As it turns out the source itself is very reliable and high quality. Unfortunetly Skapperod's edits based on the source [108] do not reflect what the source says or what it is about.
Specifically, Skapperod's edit says Duke Albrecht thus called in a Danzig book printer, Weinrich, who was soon joined by other book printers, to publish Lutheran literature not only in German and (New) Latin, but also in Latvian, Lithuanian, Old Prussian and Polish. Königsberg thus became a center of printing German- and other language books: In 1530, the first Polish translation of Luther's Small Catechism was published by Weinrich
Note that in the citation provided Skapperod explicitly says pp. 127-155; esp. p. 127-131. Pages 127 to 131 are the ones which I specifically translated. And the info itself added by Skapp is true enough, but what it fails to mention is that Weinrich was invited to Konigsberg with the specific purpose of printing Polish books and that the first translations of Luther Small Catechism New Testament (corected) were made by Jan Seklucjan, a Pole. In fact, Skapperod then edit warred to remove any mention of Seklucjan (or other Poles mentioned by his source) from the article, despite the fact that the very (German) source HE provided talks about him at length. More generally, pages 127 to 131 of the source he provided are all about Polish printing and religious life in the city at the time, but somehow he managed to pull out of all that just the fact that a print maker with a German name was invited (from Danzig/Gdansk, which was part of Poland at the time) to the city.
I tried to point out similar problems with the mis-use of the Bock source (again, the source itself is perfectly reliable) on the talk page [109] but Skapperod has not bothered to respond. VolunteerMarek 22:34, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
Extensive tag teaming by the same old group
The users involved in this dispute, User:M.K, User:HerkusMonte, User:Estlandia (only active on the talk page) and Skapperod himself have long history of supporting each other in POV disputes involving Polish and German topics. In this instance the first two, as well as an anon IP, tag-team edit warred on the article while simultaneous refusing to participate in meaningful discussion on the talk page, aside from empty "IDONTLIKEIT" statements or simple "I support the other guy" claims.
As this was going on, I repeatedly raised issues on talk and tried to add in references which HerkusMonte was demanding (for like every other word of the section) with his citation needed tags. As I mentioned above in several instances, Herkus would add a {{cn}} tag, I would spend a good chunk of time looking up a reference, go to the article to insert it, only to find that the text had been removed by one of the other tag teamers - how are you suppose to provide a reference, to a piece of text that has been removed?
But no, I did not break 3RR on the article (unless you count adding references after someone slaps in a "cn" tag "reverting"). So Skapperod is making stuff up again. Instead, extremely frustrated (especially for having my time wasted) I asked for advice at [3RR talk].
The behavior of the above users, including Skapperod on the article has been extremely disruptive. In particular this practice of first adding a "citation needed" tag to a piece of text, then after another person (myself) spends considerable time finding citations, removing the text all together is very very very annoying. It is also obviously done in bad faithed - why are you even adding "citation needed" tags if your intent is to remove the text anyway? Unless you are *trying* to waste people's time?
The ... "misrepresentative" diff padding by Skapperod
This diff - as my comment clearly states, HerkusMonte started removing several portions of the article very shortly after they've first been added, but well after I've began the work of providing sources (my first additions of sources were at 6:51 July 31, Herkus' comment was 15:12 July 31). It was clear that I was working on providing the sources so why was he trying to make my job harder by removing stuff in the middle of this work? Additionally, as I point out, ALMOST THE WHOLE article was unsourced at this point, yet Herkus chose to pick on just this one section - so yes, this is a WP:IDONTLIKEIT kind of thing.
Actually, you know what, I don't want to make this any more tl;dr then it already is. So here I am just going to relist the diffs Skapperod provides as "evidence". Please click them.
- [110] - statement of fact, that Herkus is spamming {cn} tags into what at that point is the best sourced part of the article.
- [111] - me pointing out to Herkus that he just wasted a whole bunch of my time by causing edit conflicts by adding {cn} tags to every other word in the section at the same time as I was clearly busy finding and adding sources
- [112] - the anon IP involved in the tag team reverting responded to my comment with a comment which clearly indicated that s/he had not read the sources I provided. It was a knee-jerk denial by the anon IP. And yes at this point the tag-teaming was in full swing.
- [113] - again, my post just describes what has happened. M.K had not bothered to provide any sources, to participate in discussion, just kept hitting that revert button, as if it was a button on a game controller.
- [114] - yup, at this point I was extremely frustrated. Herkus and M.K and also Skapp where at this point adding "citation needed" tags, then when I would add the requested citations, just remove the now sourced text. Wouldn't you call that "disruptive"? Isn't it a bit like purposeful sabotage? At the same time, minimal to no participation in talk page discussion, except "I don't like it" stuff.
Illustrative example of Skapperod's misreprentations
Skapperod says:
VM also added references he found on the web. I can not accept the addition of references which do not support the sentences referenced to them: In this post I compared in detail sources VM added to four sentences, and they do not match. VM did look in the source again, as is obvious from the diff before, and still restored it after my removal, so that it is now in the protected version - making wp not only unreliable, but misleading.
First, these were not "references found on the web" but rather academically published works. Skapp doesn't tell you that and instead insinuates that I ... I dunno added links to blogs or something.
In his post he notes his objections, sure. But, as it has already been explained to him, there was a simple misunderstanding - the relevant diff was at the end of the paragraph rather than the end of the appropriate sentence.
Now, let's look at this super-wrong-evil text that got protected into the WP:WRONGVERSION, which makes Wikipedia oh so unreliable and misleading.
The relevant current text of the article states: “ In 1545 in Königsberg a Polish catechism was printed by Jan Seklucjan”
The source states: “In 1545 Seklucjan published a “Simple Text of the Catechism for the Simple People” [115]
The relevant current text of the article states: “ In 1551 the first translation of the New Testament in Polish language came out, issued by Stanisław Murzynowski.”"
The source states: “(Seklucjan) used a very modest but talented humanist Stanisalw Murzynowski from Krolewiec as translator, and in 1551 published first the Gospel of Matthew, some months later all four Gospels, in 1552 other New Testament books, and finally in 1553 the whole New Testament in one volume”" [116]
The relevant current text of the article states: “Murzynowski's collections of sermons were delivered by Eustace Trepka and in 1574 by Hieronim Malecki. The works of Mikolaj Rej were printed here by Seklucjan”
The source states: "Source:”Seklucjan also published the works of Mikolaj Rej, the father of Polish literature”[117]
Note the previous source also discusses Malecki and I was about to add a source for Trepka – part of the difficulty is that his name was misspelled – but the article got protected before I had a chance to do so
The relevant current text of the article states:
“ Marcin Stryjkowski announced in Krolewiec the publication of his Kronika Polska, Litewska, Żmudzka, i wszystkiej Rusi ("A Chronicle of Poland, Lithuania, Samogitia and all Rus")”
The source states: "Source: In 1582, Stryjkowski published his chronicle at Konigsberg (Krolewiec)" [118]
So please, tell me, is there any truth to Skapperod's contention that I was using 'false source' (which I "found on the web") and that these references do not support the text referred to? Is Wikipedia really going to lose all credibility because this material is included in the WP:WRONGVERSION that got protected?
If not, then just keep in mind what's going on here and that this kind of ... mischaracterization, well, characterizes Skapperod's entire report.
- --> Response to Skapperod's "Response to VM, detailed analysis of his references not sourcing the sentences they had been added to"
- Look, it's not that hard. Compare the text of the article, to the text of the source as I've done in the section right above. Do they match up? Yes? Then your accusations that I was "presenting false sources" is ... well, "untrue".
- What you are doing is very typical - you're picking on minor points, like the fact that I included the name of the editor of a work rather than the author originally, and hanging your whole "you're misrepresenting sources" on that very feeble peg. All the issues you raised were answered and addressed on the talk page and the section right above makes it clear that the sources do indeed align very well with the text. And since you acknowledged that by responding, why do you turn around and keep making this accusation that I "presented false sources". Since you know what is actually going on, yet you insist on making these accusations, is that not "lying"? VolunteerMarek 07:19, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
-
- ---> Response to Skapperod's latest
-
- re VM below: "Herkus and M.K and also Skapp where at this point adding "citation needed" tags": I have to the best of my knowledge not added a single cn tag. Please provide a diff. - my bad, you weren't the one adding {cn} tags, you were just the one removing text that had first been {cn} tagged by Herkus, which I then apparently wasted my valuable time finding sources for [119]
-
- Seklucjan was a German priest in Posen before he came to Kbg., and "failure to mention" him and that he was a "Pole" should not be an issue here. - nope, Seklucjan was a "German priest" only in the sense that he spoke German and was a priest for the German congregation in Poznan. Sources clearly call him a Pole ("Ducal Prussia provided refuge for Poles such as Jan Seklucjan from Poznan". He was born in Stare Siekluki deep within central Poland (not even in any of the "disputed" areas). So this is just more typical misrepresentation.
- The bottomline here is that the very source YOU added, Vanessa Bock, discusses Seklucjan at length, including his role in translating works into Polish, with help from Weinreich.
-
- the first translation of Luther's Small Catechism were NOT made by Jan Seklucjan. I did not misrepresent the source. - a small mistake on my part, Seklucjan was the first to translate the New Testament not Luther's Small Catechism. Which I already explained on article's talk. The misrepresentation of the source involves completely omitting Seklucjan from the article (whether he was the first to translate NT or LSM) and additionally to mention the first translation by Liboriusz Schadlika. Yes, it is perfectly possible to misrepresent sources BY OMISSION.
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- Overall, here are the relevant passages from the source which are very relevant but which Skapperod just... "skipped" over (he did mention the Seindammer church):
- Die Kirchenordung legte zudem die Bereitstellung von Buchern zum Lesen und Singen fur die Gemeinden fest. Durch den Druck reformatorischer, religionspolitischer und fremdsprachiger Literatur wurde diese Forderung vom ersten Konigsberger Drucker erfullt. Fur die Wirksamkeit landesherrlicher Verwaltungs- und Kirchenordungen und die Verbreitung des neuen Glaubens war die Existenz dieser ersten Offizin unentbehrlich. Auch Herzog Albert selbst forderte die Predigt in der jeweiligen Muttersprache. Die Polen und Litauer, oftmals Glaubensfluchtlinge, hielten ihre Gottesdienste in Konigsberg in der Seindammer Kirche, spater auch in der Elisabeth kirche; zudem wurde vierzehntägig im Dom und in der altstadtischen Kirche eine polnische Mittagspredigt gehalten, wodurch die Reformierung des Gesindes gewahrleister werden sollte.
- and:
- Als erstes erliess ein noch anonym Kleiner Kathechismus 1530 seine Konigsberg Offizin. Die eiligst angefertige polnische Ubersetzung des Kathechismus wies jedoch sprachliche Mangel auf, die dem Herzog durch Liborius Schadlika, einen polnischen Philologen aufgezeigt wurden. Schadlika selbst nahm sich der Uberarbeitung an, so dass 1533 ein zweiter, sprachlich verbesserter polnischer Kathechismus in der Druckerei von Weinreich entstand. Zwar sind diese ersten polnischen Drucke auf Initiative Weinreichs (und somit durchaus auf Geschaftsinteresse) entstanden, sie erfullt jedoch zugleich die in der Kirchenordung geforderte und von Herzog Albert aktiv unterstutze Ubersetzung zentraler evangelischer Schriften in die jeweiligen Volkssprachen.
- 1543 und 1544 wurden in Preussen erstmals staatliche Verordnungen ins Polnische ubersetz und ebenfalls von Weinreich gedruckt. Dem Herzog und seinen Beamten ging es zugleich mit der religiosen Unterweisung seiner polnischen Untertanen um deren Intagration in der preussischen Territorialstaat. Allerdings bleibt ungewiss, warum nicht bereits fruhere Landes -oder zumindest Kirchenordnungen ubersetz und gedruckt wurden. Die Notwendigkeit, liturgische und religiose Grundtexte in die Sprache des Volkes ubersetzen zu lassen und dafur zunachst Tolken einzusetzen, hatte bereits die Kirchenordnungen von 1525 betont, doch herrschte im sakularisierten Ordensland offensichtlich zunachst noch ein Mangel an sprachkompetenten Predigern.
- Herzog Albert personlichem Engagement war es zu verdanken, dass aus Polen viele Pfarrer, die sich dem Luthertum zugewandt hatten, nach Preussen ubersiedelten. Seit 1530 wirkten in Ostpreussen u.a. "seit 1537 Johann Maletius in Lyck, und seit 1544 Johann Seclutian an der Polnische Kirche auf dem Steindamm in Konigsberg als Pfarrer in herzoglich-preussischen Gemeinden" Ihre Berufungen waren fur die Entwicklung des polnischen Buchdrucks in Konigsberg ausserst folgenreich. Nach wie vor war die Zahl der polnischen Pfarrer jedoch unzureichend. Mit der Grundung der Universitat im Jahre 1544 wurde deshalb auch das Ziel verfolgt, die Versorgung v.a. der landlichen Bevolkerung mit polnischen - aber ebenso litauischen - Pfarren zu verbessern:
- Overall, here are the relevant passages from the source which are very relevant but which Skapperod just... "skipped" over (he did mention the Seindammer church):
-
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- Herzog Albert hatten sieben Stipendien fur Studenten mit guten Polnisch - kenntnissen gestiftet und zugleich Universitatsbehorden angeordnet, solche Studenten desto eifriger zu suchen und aufzunehmen, weil solche Pastoren und Kirchenleute auch die Schule in preussischen Landen wegen Unkenntnis der deutschen Sprache besonders notig haben.
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- Die polnischen Pfarrer spielten die entscheidende Rolle in den Anfangsjahren des polnischen Buchdrucks in Konigsberg. Drei Jahre nach der Publikation der Ubersetzung von Schadlika verliess ein weitere Ausgabe des polnischen Katechismus die Presse Weinreichs. Ob dieser Druck eine zweite Auflage von der Schadlika bearbeiteten Ubersetzung war, ist nicht nachweisbar, doch wurde auf Veranlassung von Paul Speratus 1545 in eine Auflage von dreihundert Exemplaren diese Ubersatzung in Wittenberg erneut gedruckt.
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-
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- Again, this is misrepresentation by OMISSION, not your run of the mill pretend-source-says-something-it-doesn't kind that only newbie POV pushers engage in. How can you take source whose title is "Beginnings of Polish Printing in Konigsberg" and write about it so as to almost completely fail to mention anything to do with Poles?
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- Skapperod says This is however the current version, not the one that was debated by me above - yes, 1) you were complaining that the WP:WRONGVERSION got protected so I discussed the current "wrong version" and 2) the first version was "debated" and I explained what was going on to you, then made corrections.
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- Skapperod says sysops need to closely examine this, as "the source" he used in his response here [88] is not the one he used in the article! - let them examine, please! The source I gave is the one I suggested on the talk page, along with a statement about Trepka [120]. Keep in mind that the article was protected shortly thereafter. Since you were participating in that discussion YOU KNOW THIS. Additionally that source was being used elsewhere in the article already. You know this as well. Does the source support the text? It does, which you are also well aware of. So why are you playing these games?
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VolunteerMarek 08:07, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
This is standard MO of Skapperod for which he has been warned before
This AE request bares an uncanny resemblance to this one filed a while back by Skapperod, (as well as numerous others of his). In that AE request Skapperod was trying to get me blocked for stating that Skapperod was behaving "disruptively" (he was). Here he is trying to get me sanctioned for pointing out that several users, himself included, were behaving badly on the Konigsberg article, by spamming {cn} tags (while remainder of the article was unreferenced), by removing text and making it hard to actually provide the citations they requested, and then by removing the text which was now sourced, as well as misrepresenting sources (Skapperod in particular with the Bock source, as outlined above). All the time not bothering to participate in talk page discussion.
In fact, User:Sandstein's closure of that AE request is worth quoting in full:
This looks like a misuse of WP:AE (by Skapperod - VM) in order to win the upper hand in a content dispute. The edits cited in the request are not objectionable; rather, they reflect routine disagreements about content. In particular, it is not disruptive to state one's opinion that "Removing a large chunk of text without discussing it first is generally seen as "disruptive"". Unless other administrators disagree, I will close this thread with a warning to Skäpperöd that AE is not a substitute for, or part of, proper dispute resolution, and that he may face sanctions if he files more unfounded enforcement requests. (my emphasis -VM)
and then this comment made by former arbitrator Shell Kinney
I am in complete agreement with your reading of the situation Sandstein. (consequently Skapperod would attempt to get Shell in trouble, possibly in retaliation)
and then Sandstein concluded:
No action. Skäpperöd is warned not to file more unfounded requests.
That's all that is going on over here. Again. In fact, Skapperod has been trying to "get me" for quite awhile now. I had the hope that he turned a new leaf and was ready to participate in a constructive manner in improving the relevant articles, since he is somewhat knowledgeable about sources (how he uses them, is another matter). But I guess not. Same ol' same ol'.
I have no comment on anything by MyMoloboaccount and I haven't even really looked at his edits. I did not ask him in any way what so ever to comment, edit or otherwise become involved in this article.
@Devil's Advocate
Actually, MyMoloboaccount's first edit since returning WAS NOT in support of any edit I have made. His first edit was to Konigsberg but it was not related to any issues I have been involved in [121]. In fact, I disagree with him in this regard - he thinks the article should be moved/merged to "Kaliningrad", I'm ok with where it is.
His second or so edit was to the Battle of Dirschau article (btw, Herkus is now move warring on that page). I actually have no strong opinion as to what name the article should be under either (though I find this tendentious insistence on German names for places/events in Poland annoying and a waste of time).
So actually, two of MyMoloboaccount's first couple edits are not even ones with which I agree with. Skapperod is just paranoid/trying to use imaginary non-happenings as a way of winning a content dispute.
Anyway. If you're involved in Polish-German topics, you come back from a four month absence and you look at your watchlist what are you gonna see? Well, people are discussing Konigsberg a lot, so you go there to check out what happens.
And seriously, don't you just see how dripping with bad faith statements like "where EEML attacked me before" by Skapperod are? Just because someone reverted him once somewhere. This is just the usual "oh noes they won't let me push my POV in peace" complainin'.
And with regard to this EEML well-poisoning (which Skapperod also has been warned about in the past) let me just point out a Principles from a recent ArbCom case:
- Editors are expected to comment on the substance of other's edits, and not attempt to use editors' affiliations in an ad hominem method to attempt to discredit their views. Attempts to do so may be considered a Personal Attack. [122]. I assume that applies equally to some vague affiliations from almost three years ago.
Please also see my comment at DA's talk page [123]. Bottomline is that if there's supposed to be some kind of tag-teaming by me and MMA then ... well, where is it?
Response to MK's post
All that M.K does is throw the at-this-point-ridiculous EEML boogeyman around (if there's an EEML around these days, which I seriously doubt, I am not part of it nor am I even aware of it) and then throw in some completely irrelevant diffs about how one time I told somebody who was harassing me on my talk page (whom I asked not to post there half a dozen times) to "fuck off". Note that none of these diffs resulted in any kind of sanction (though the harassment by the other user was discussed by admins). It's just tired old battleground mentality and poisoning the well.
Again, M.K and others *were* behaving disruptively on the Konigsberg article - spamming {cn} tags, then after citations were provided, removing the relevant text altogether, and they were tag teaming to do so. To refer to that behavior as "disruptive" is perfectly valid.
What exactly is this report about anyway? That MyMoloboaccount posted a short comment to the talk page (he did not make any edits to the article itself)? That I said the users were behaving disruptively? This is a content dispute which, as he has done numerous times before, Skapperod (and his friends) is trying to win via WP:AE instead of discussion on the article talk page.
One more time @ Skapperod
Skapperod, this is getting ridiculous. Your evidence doesn't show anything of the kind.
- Your own attitude towards me (and yes, also MyMoloboaccount) is what is causing all the problems. I have tried numerous times to be friendly and nice towards you "thank you" "sincere thanks" "much improved" etc. And each time you have responded with completely out-of-the-left field battleground behavior, of which very report is an excellent example.
- There was no "confrontation" with you - just discussion. Then you initiated a confrontation by accusing me of "presenting false source", which as I've shown was complete nonsense. If the atmosphere on the talk page deteriorated you only have yourself to blame.
- There were no "massive insults" against you, nor anyone else. You're making stuff up. All I said is that some of you were behaving disruptively on the article. Adding {cn} tags, then removing text after the citations were provided *is* disruptive (and it wasted a whole bunch of my valuable time)
- Molobo aka MyMoloboaccount was already in 2008 identified as the alter ego of the nationalist forumtroll Shade2 - thank you, thank you, thank you, for providing a clear example of your entrenched battleground mentality. In that one little sentence you manage to combine 1) an egregerious personal attack, which, if made anywhere else would get you immediately blocked, 2) an attempt at WP:OUTING someone, which, should get you immediately blocked even if it is made here, and 3) more unsubstantiated accusations - your evidence is two posts by your former friends (one of them posting anonymously - gee, I wonder why? Online harassment is no fun when you put your name behind it?) which are just more accusations. There is no substance there.
- As to my block log, since that keeps getting dredged up and misrepresented (yes, you are being dishonest again). I have ONE block for incivility (recent) which has nothing to do with any WP:AE areas, I just mouthed off to an admin for abusively blocking someone else. I have three blocks which were due to mutual violations of the interaction bans with Russavia (he got blocked much more than I did) which were due simply to the confusing wording of that interaction ban. And I have one, very very very old block for edit warring with Malik Shabazz, whom I am currently friends with. So don't make stuff up. And I have been on Wikipedia for seven years. If you really want to entertain yourself by dwelling on my block log - which has nothing to do with WP:DIGWUREN - then I suggest you bring this up on AN/I. Let's have a community wide discussion there. Of course your own hijinks might be examined as well.
- Volunteer Marek aka Radeksz was subject to, especially with respect to hounding and harassing me, the conditions under which his remedies were eased - this is complete nonsense. Notice no diff. YOU however where reprimanded several times for engaging in disruptive commentary at WP:AE, and at ArbCom pages, as well as your continued attempts to WP:OUT me, for instance by User:Newyorkbrad. That one actually is worth looking at seperately:
Skäpperöd, from now on please refer to Volunteer Marek on-wiki only by his current username. This appears to be a reasonable request on his part given the history and circumstances. Please see the ANI thread for more comments. Thanks, Newyorkbrad (talk)
You've violated this injunction at least several times on this request, including for no apparent reason except intentional harassment. And it is worth reminding everyone WHY you were required to not mention my former username (and hell, the main reason why I changed my username in the first place): you were one of the two users who posted my personal information, all over Wikipedia and spread it around (the info had to be oversighted later on).
You seem to be stuck in the same entrenched, tendentious, win-at-all-cost, battleground mode just as when you used that tactic to mess with my real life, two years ago.
Just one diff which speaks volumes
Skapperod refusing an arbitrator's request
VolunteerMarek 05:47, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
VolunteerMarek 22:16, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
A not short enough summary by Volunteer Marek
I'm sorry, it's hard to keep this short. This issue is both simple and complex. Please read the following carefully.
The simple part is that this is just Skapperod’s special way of fighting a battleground action. He’s done this many many times before. The complex issue involves the associated details, the history of my interaction with Skapperod and the participation of other users. This AE report by Skapperod is a spurious attempt to gain an upper hand in a content dispute. Skapperod has been instructed in the past not to file these kinds of AE reports, specifically with regard to myself, and has been told that any such reports will result in sanctions against him [124]. The essence of Skapperod’s report, once you strip away the irrelevant diffs and ranting, the innuendo, the scare mongering and conspiracy theories is that:
- MyMoloboaccount posted a comment to the talk page of the article. Here it is [125]. Ooohhh, scary, isn’t it? Seriously, MyMoloboaccount is not under any sanction, he can post comments to any talk page he pleases (or the article themselves) and I have not asked him to make any edit on this or any other article. How can you in good faith ask that somebody be sanctioned for making a single, simple, civil, constructive talk page comment? Where is the objectionable action? The fact that Skapperod reacts this insanely to a simple talk page comment is about as much evidence as is needed of Skapperod’s entrenched battleground mentality
- That I replied to Skapperod’s repeated hounding and false accusations by saying that he was “lying his ass off”. He was. A citation was added to an end of a paragraph rather end of a sentence. Based on this Skapperod, despite numerous explanations, kept taunting me that I “presented false sources”. He knows what the actual situation was. He knows that his own sources support the text cited. Yet he continued casting false aspersions, and actually has continued doing this on this very report – the whole experience has been extremely frustrating to deal with. This is a cheap attempt to score “points”, to intimidate and once again perfectly illustrates Skapperod’s battleground mentality.
- Skapperod has a pretty extensive history of misrepresenting sources. See here for another example (there are many more). Unfortunately this is the kind of Civil POV pushing that is hard to show unless someone is also familiar with the topic area and is willing to go to the trouble of acquiring and often translating, the relevant sources. The way he misrepresents sources parallels the way he misrepresents diffs and individuals he’s waging a crusade against in noticeboard discussions. These WP:AE reports of his ALWAYS are filed right after someone convincingly challenges him on his use of sources on some article’s talk page.
Additionally
- On the article HerkusMonte first tagged a section as “unsourced”, despite the fact that remainder of the article is mostly unsourced as well, then when I began adding sources tried to remove chunks of the section itself. When I kept adding sources he began spamming [citation needed] tags into every sentence of the section in some kind of “I can add [citation needed] tags faster than you can find references” game. This was disruptive, annoying (it led to much wasted time due to edit conflicts) and violation of WP:POINT. However, to his credit, he desisted after I raised the issue on another venue and warned him.
- Other users, M.K, anon IP 93.220.172.210 and Skapperod began removing text which Herkus had previously tagged with [citation needed] per some kind of tag-team WP:IDONTLIKEIT. This is the text that I spend a considerable amount of my time (I estimate about 20 hours overall) referencing. How frustrating is it when somebody asks you to do something (provide citations), you spend time doing it, only to have one of their friends come along and completely destroy your efforts anyway? A confounding factor is that Skapperod was removing text which his own sources supported, as he was well aware (he indicated “especially pg xx” in his citation).
The history with Skapperod
- Skapperod has been explicitly warned about filing spurious and battleground-y WP:AE reports, specifically with regard to myself, and was threatened with sanction for it.
- In his report above Skapperod strings together a series of diffs where, supposedly, I was “incivil”. None of these resulted in any admin actions and some are outright false misrepresentations. For example, in one of them I made a joke, which was perfectly understood by the other party ([126] - I was made a mentor to a potentially problematic user), but Skapperod pretends that it was some serious offense. And all of them are completely irrelevant to this dispute, to the topic area and did not involve him in any way. Additionally he manages to even pull in obscure comments I made at Commons, on Jimbo’s talk page and other hard-to-find-and-irrelevant places. This is, frankly, super creepy –it’s obvious he keeps some kind of file on me, watches all my edits, even ones which don’t concern him in the least bit, looking for some “dirt”. This is explicit evidence of ‘’’long term, sustained, stalking’’’.
- Skapperod has long “pursued” me, as well as Piotrus, across Wikipedia, having shown up to many discussions always trying to stir stuff up. His comments have generally been ignored by admins, by arbitrators and by uninvolved commentators, if he has not actually been explicitly warned about them. Some of the “funnier” instances include the time he tried to get me (or Piotrus) sanctioned because… Piotrus gave me a barnstar! Or when he tried to get Arbitrator Shell Kinney into trouble because she went to the same Wiki-meetup as Piotrus.
- More seriously, during the EEML case (more than 2.5 years ago), I accidentally posted some personal real life info on wiki, including info about my family and friends (names, email addresses etc). This was oversighted. However, Skapperod “captured” the info before it was oversighted and spread it around on Wikipedia. This was oversighted as well. Due to some real life harassment resulting partly from these actions of his, I changed my username subsequently so that it would no longer be connected to my real life name. I asked a number of users I was familiar with, including Skapperod, to please use my current user name (VM) – all of them ‘’’except Skapperod’’’ said they had no problem with that.
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- Over the next months (years?) Skapperod made a WP: POINT of it to keep using my former username (the one connected to my real life identity). After repeatedly requesting him to desist, exasperated, I finally had to risk a Streisand Effect and raised the issue on ANI [127]. As a result Arbitrator Newyorkbrad specifically instructed Skapperod to please refer to Volunteer Marek on-wiki only by his current username... given the history and circumstances.
- Skapperod responded belligerently then and now he has violated Newyorkbrad’s injunction by spamming my former username in this very report. I have asked him to refactor [128]. He is now making crappy excuses about how it’s ok for him to keep up with the harassment because recently I used my former name myself (in an ArbCom appeal to change that username in ArbCom pages!).
- This sorry story is yet another example of how seriously battleground minded Skapperod is on Wikipedia. Basically, any tactic appears to be fair game.
Bottomline
- This is just a disruptive use of WP:AE as a battleground. Skapperod has been warned about this before. In regard to myself and MyMoloboaccount there’s absolutely nothing here. Skapperod has a long history of weird obsession with myself. Skapperod has played a role in outing me in the past and has used my former username as an intimidation tactic. Skapperod has a history of misrepresenting sources and usually files WP:AE reports like this when he’s called on it.
Statement by MyMoloboaccount
UPDATE:Only now I realized what trick Skapperod used. He flooded his request with so many links, that one crucial element is missing. What exactly should be enforced ? I am not DIGWUREN of sanctions nor was I subject to EEML sanctions. In fact Skapperod falsely claims: Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required) both editors have been subject to EEML. I haven't been placed on EEML sanctions. If Skapperod disagrees then he should give a link to the post where I am placed on any sanctions regarding EEML. In fact he failed to provide any diff for such thing. This is a typical shotgun shooting for sanctions, especially as the case open against VM, block wall of links which lead often to unrelated things provided then casually another user(me) thrown in, even when I am not on any sanctions mentioned, and no link is provided to any sanction to be enforced. Now to continue
- First of all, this yet again another part of never ending saga regarding Skapperod's constant attempts to get me or VM blocked, and which probably started somewhere around when I discovered Skapperod was using Nazi propaganda as sources for Polish history[129]. Since then he behaved aggressively towards me while occassionally repeating attempts to introduce sources of such nature into Wikipedia.
- Second of all I was present at the article about Kaliningrad/Konigsberg since years ago, as the history of the city is part of my interests, any brief search of the history of the article will discover my edits there since at least 2008[130]. And the topics discussed by VolunteerMarek were debated by me years ago on that page already
[131] In fact in 2008 I already wrote 'In the meantime still gathering research to NPOV the article, extermination of Jews whose population count I added above, discrimination of Polish minority(classified as lower then animals by German state in WW2), use of slaves to develop a city within 1000 year planned Reich, local Nazi movement, and post war revanchist role the city played in contrast to other Germanised territories that underwent degermanisation after the war are interesting subjects which need expansion. --Molobo (talk) 17:12, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
- Third of all the revert I did to HM was regarding a move of an page name to Germanised version of Polish location without end of Request for Move-perfectly in order as per Wikipedia rules.
- Fourth of all my long absence is due to my sickness and stay at hospital, to which I am returning tomorrow, and won't be able to respond further this week and probably throughout the next month as well.
--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:23, 5 August 2012 (UTC) PS:I love the title "Ex-leader of EEML". Actually we title ourselves Silver, Red Dragon. And the leader is titled the Golden Egg on Emerald Throne. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:40, 5 August 2012 (UTC) BTW: What is exactly that I am accused of? Of editing articles that aren't even subject to any discussion between Skappoerod and VM?:"[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Treaty_of_Bromberg&diff=prev&oldid=505787635] Molobo returned to previous article and makes another edit [132] to a talkpage? This is ridiculous, and seems just shotgun shooting of Enforcement request in hopes that somebody doesn't even follow the links that lead to nothing of substance or anything controversial. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:49, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
- Devil's Advocate-I was present on the page for years and took part in many discussions there. The topic is close to my interests.I edited the page as Molobo before that account was hacked. Do feel free to see history of talk and page history-you will find me there debating those things before Skapperod arrived to that page[133], [134]
What Skapperod mislead here(among many other things) was both editors have been subject to EEML-I haven't been subject to ANY sanctions in EEML case. This very typical-he usually throws numerous accusations that are baseless, eventually someone doesn't double check what he writes or doesn't follow the links, so something manages to go through. Note that he avoided giving link to support his statement-because there isn't any. In any case I performed all my edits on my own, and I haven't been in contact with VM or Piotrus in any way, either by email, or by any other means.
Molobo's first edit is to comment on the talk page of this article in support of Marek.- Where? I commented on other issues. As far I remember I didn't comment on the issue VM was debating at all, can you provide a diff supporting this claim? --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 06:28, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
Comments by others about the request concerning Volunteer Marek and MyMoloboaccount
Comment by The Devil's Advocate
It is rather conspicuous that after nearly four months Molobo's first edit is to comment on the talk page of this article in support of Marek. To Molobo's query, the DIGWUREN case has since been renamed to be consistent with its function as an Eastern Europe arbitration case and that case allowed admins to issue sanctions at their own discretion against anyone editing in the topic area in violation of policy. The EEML mention appears to be referring to the admonishment to all members of the mailing list to avoid off-wiki collaboration. So there is nothing inappropriate about Skap's report in that respect.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:33, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
Comment by HerkusMonte
I don't have the time and the patience to go into detail, just a short comment
1. Marek's claim:
- "The users involved in this dispute, User:M.K, User:HerkusMonte, User:Estlandia (only active on the talk page) and Skapperod himself have long history of supporting each other in POV disputes involving Polish and German topics. In this instance the first two, as well as an anon IP, tag-team edit warred on the article.."
This is absurd, I didn't even know M.K. before and we never made any edits on the same article. To call this "Extensive tag teaming by the same old group" leaves me speechless. The whole tag team allegation is completely absurd and just shows Marek's persistent assumption of bad faith.
2. I (not Marek) tried to start a discussion about the lack of sources [135] , however Marek's answer was extremely aggressive [136] ("Tell you what Herkus..." followed by the ususal allegations of "disruptive","tendentious" and "battlegroundy" editing, hardly a constructive way to react). Honestly, I don't see a reason to discuss on such a level of bad faith.
3. Maybe I missed something, but Marek doesn't deny he called Skäpperöd a "shithead" in his email, does he? HerkusMonte (talk) 15:13, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
Comment by Piotrus
I try to avoid getting involved in AE, but seeing as Skapperod mentioned me already "Piotrus, ex-(?)-leader of the EEML", I would like to point out that dragging an old (2009) ArbCom case is not only a case of poisoning the well, but of a personal attack; I do not enjoy seeing my name dragged through ancient mud, and I'd very much prefer if Skapperod would try to move on from the old battlegrounds. What's more, Skapperod uses a single diff to imply I am still a leader of EEML; this is a slanderous claim without any basis in fact, to say the least, and I request that it is refactored, and apologized for.
Further, VM cites an example of an AE where Skapperod was warned not to abuse AE to win content disputes. It is worth noting that complaining about VM seems to be a popular pastime of Skapperod's: March 2012; September 2011, and others I don't have time to find. He has also been warned about outing VM ([137]). Back in 2011, when the last of EEML remedies were amended and discarded by the Committee, he was very active in campaigning against them; see my comment here, where I list close to a ten of examples of Skapperod either requesting sanctions against VM and other EEML members, or commenting in support. And almost always, his requests have been denied.
I don't want to get too involved here; I'd suggest that both VM and Skapperod are asked to be more civil in his on-wiki comments, and that Skapperod's engagement with AE is scrutinized by the admins; I feel it may be a time that a restriction from filling AE requests is served here, or perhaps an interaction ban would do more good, as it seems clear to me that Skapperod still feels the need to drag out old incidents and relive old battlegrounds. As most of us have no wish to join him in those reenactions, some remedy is clearly needed. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 19:05, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
- Update: Skapperod has refactored his comment to remove the comment about myself I complained above. This is commendable. Now, if only he and VM could see past their differences... they are both productive editors, but I don't see how they can be made to behave without some community sanctions. I wonder if the we don't need to do as follows: interaction ban on both, civility warning for VM, and ban from AE for Skapperod? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 22:13, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
Comment by Lothar von Richthofen
Few things here annoy me more than unwarranted resurrection of EEML (“curly quotes” and dynamic IPs might trump that). Really what I see here is the standard back-and-forth of two "national interest groups" which is typical of basically anywhere in the topic realm of Eastern Europe. The phantom mailing list stopped being spooky a long time ago, and invoking its name nowadays just comes off as petty mud-slinging. But neither side has clean hands here. A stern and final warning would be my prescription for this, given that both sides have a lot to contribute to the project in spite of their at-times problematic behaviour. I'm not too keen at all on an interaction ban, given that those have tended to compound problems in the past *cough*Polandball*cough*. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:45, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
Comment by M.K
Wherever VolunteerMarek goes there will be trouble. I don't like being dragged into these types of his quarrels, least of all involving him. Initially I decided not to comment here, however after noticing user: Volunteer Marek (aka user:Radeksz) insinuations regarding my character I can’t be mute.
VolunteerMarek’s claim of tag teaming is fiction
It seems that I am only editor who edited Königsberg article back in 2008, but still VolunteerMarek is filling various pages emphasizing that I am in some sort of tag team ending with various editors. [138]Herkus, M.K, Skapperod and now you {Estlandia}? We've got a full house here. Have you guys EVER broken ranks and NOT supported each other mindlessly in these discussions?
Then Estlandia is actually Miacek, one of the former members of tag team. Only user: Miacek now renamed user account to user: Estlandia. This clear illustration how desperate this guy to mud other editors and fuel another battleground.
VolunteerMarek’s actions are below any reasonable standard
Just look into his block log and various reactions which this person had. I just scrolled down of the recent VolunteerMarek’s “contributions” and Königsberg article’s talk page is not exception . Behavior like You're lying your ass off, Oh and btw, my query on RSN in regard to your knee-jerk mindless support of your fellow POV pusher is became a standard to this user:
- the *real* nationalist edit warriors, like M.K above.
- and you're an abusive asshole
- fuck off. I could make even more comprehensive list however I am lack timing to searching those diffs.
On the Königsberg article’s talk page past few days VolunteerMarek brought my name at least 9 times if I counted all, in negative context included, like in “disruption”, “tag teaming” etc. Then I brought this name ZERO times. And this is not the isolated article I am afraid. Mostly due to this type of harassment I limited my time on Wikipedia to minimum. Thus I requesting that VolunteerMarek would be placed on interaction ban towards me as I am disgust to see my name all over the place, spammed by this editor. Re-institution of his topic ban should be considered as well, which had only been lifted on the false expectancy that "any relapse is likely to be poorly received." [139]
Good standing editors should be protected
My clean block log perfectly well shows that I am following good editorial practice from all my heart. Yet, I had to limit my time on WP as good standing editors are not protected from similar harassment and mistreatment (most Lithuanian editors departed unable to withstand such level of harassment). I understand that uninvolved administrators are sick and tired from EE conflicts, but failure to act or comparing the EEML to people targetted by them only bolsters such editors like VolunteerMarek. Action should be taken at least now that “knee-jerk mindless support” “you're an abusive asshole” “*real* nationalist edit warriors” harassment would never show up again.
Old WP:EEML is not gone, at least the most of it
I belive that no one can honestly say VolunteerMarek, Piotrus and other members have changed their ways. The same behavior which was stressed during WP:EEML arbitration. Everyone wanted to believe the EEML was gone immediately after the revelation in September 2009. In December new mails leaked again. When does that blind-believer crowd vanish? Apparently, Abd, who had joined the EEML, admitted only last year the EEML still exists. I say it is time to end this now. M.K. (talk) 14:36, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
Response to VolunteerMarek misleading information
I hoped that with my statement I could point to VolunteerMarek his pastern which is troubling me and hoped that he would knowledge his mistakes and distance himself from them. However after seeing his reply I have no even slightest hopes. As he continuously falsely accuses me of behaving disruptively on the Konigsberg article - spamming {cn} tags among others. In fact I applied no more no less then ZERO {cn} tags in that article. This is another example of desperate VolunteerMarek tactics, to make false claims towards various editors, in hope that neutral editors would not investigate those diffs and take drastic actions involving all parties at least. Not surprisingly that VolunteerMarek is already found to abuse of dispute resolution processes. I kindly suggest neutral editors to be very careful and disregard completely such insinuations. And this is only prove my previous request that I need to be protected form this editor, as his behavior would not change . M.K. (talk) 19:37, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
Comment by Vecrumba
I have some knowledge of Königsberg. All VM did was expand content on the role and contribution of Poles to Königsberg as a cultural and intellectual center, content which was all perfectly valid, and which VM kept in its own section, not to glorify Poles but simply to better manage working on expanding content. Rather than other editors expanding the contributions of other ethnic or religious groups, said other editors set upon VM mercilessly, culminating in the crap here.
Lastly, I am FUCKING TIRED of hearing about EEML. VєсrumЬа ►TALK 16:50, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
Comment by Estlandia
The mere length of the measures already implemented with regard to Volunteer Marek (listed by Skäpperöd under History of disruption by VM and Molobo) reveals, that a more permanent solution is needed. In the light of this, the lifting of Volunteer Marek's topic ban in 2010 has not justified itself. I suggest considering an indefinite topic ban from Eastern European articles for this user, as he is constantly disruptive and edit warring (just on 25 July he broke 3RR, as explained here, followed by a similar violation on 31 July, as explained by Skäpperöd above). Add to this his constant incivility [140], [141], [142], [143] and the harassment of users with a clean blocklog and in good standing like Skäpperöd to get the full picture. Where battleground is, there's Volunteer Marek. Where Volunteer Marek is, there's incivility. Users like that we can do without. Estlandia (Miacek) (dialogue) 14:06, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
Comment by Shrike(uninvolved)
If he really abused Wikipedia email system then to avoid further disruption his email should be blocked.--Shrike (talk)/WP:RX 14:11, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
Result concerning Volunteer Marek and MyMoloboaccount
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.
- Verbosity is not equivalent to correctness. If you really need to put that much forth to present your case, please provide a brief summary along with all the detail, so we know what to look for in the detail section. Seraphimblade Talk to me 08:35, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks to those who have provided summaries. There's a lot to look through here, I'll try to get to it over this weekend. Seraphimblade Talk to me 02:39, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
Arbitration enforcement action appeal by SonofSetanta
Appeal declined. T. Canens (talk) 00:13, 22 August 2012 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Topic ban as per the discussion at [144]
Statement by SonofSetantaI was topic banned under a 1RR because I reverted on a 3RR page twice and had a complaint lodged about me. Another complaint was lodged against me for making a marginal 1RR on another page which I reverted but this was dimsissed. I did not edit war on ANY page and indeed lodged my own complaint against an editor who I felt was displaying a battleground mentality. Unfortunately, despite my objections and good behaviour, it was decided I should be banned along with the troublemakers who were gaming a number of pages, including Provisional IRA where I was actively editing and in full discussion with a number of other editors. I have been accused of WP:Boomerang which I hotly dispute. I felt strongly about the way another editor wiped out two days of work without discussion on a 1RR page. I appeal on the basis that; 1, I was not editwarring; 2, that the topic ban of four months is unjustified; 3, that my behaviour pattern was not of a battleground mentality. SonofSetanta (talk) 13:48, 17 August 2012 (UTC) In response to Calil's comments I would further add that I was NOT involved in tag teaming. It can clearly be seen from my edits that I have no editing partners on Wikipedia and any inference of that is false, unlike the others who WERE actually tag teaming. My involvement in any of the articles, barring {{Provisional IRA]] was miniscule. The edit history at the IRA article is undisputable. Attempts were made to game me and I felt the only way forward was to take the risk of a complaint. I note that further input has been requested from Arbcom. What I have not said until now is that I have been in contact with Arbcom all along as I could see a situation developing which was sucking my name into it even though I had little or no involvement. I have basically been banned because of my proximity and because I dared to make one complaint - unlike the others who have made multiple complaints at 1RR without discussion or justification. SonofSetanta (talk) 15:01, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
Statement by CaililAs a procedural note I closed the above thread with an overwhelming consensus for the sanctions as spelt out there. This was not a simple imposition of discretionary sanctions, the thread was open 2 weeks with significant and active sysop input.
Statement by (involved editor 1)Statement by (involved editor 2)Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by SonofSetantaResult of the appeal by SonofSetanta
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