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Edit to Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Icons#Do not use icons in general article prose
Re: this edit: Icons should not be used in prose in the article body.
This was quickly reverted by PlanespotterA320 with the summary: "Undid revision 873439965 by Cinderella157 (talk) you literally changed the wording of this page right after I quoted it in a discussion - that's low".
The edit I made was to have the guidance be consistent with both the heading of the section and with the example. It appears that the text, in its original form can (and has been) misconstrued or misrepresented by quoting out of the context. The intent is clearly wrt use in prose and not from the main body of the article more generally (such as in tables or lists).
The reverting reinstates the ambiguity that occurs when quoting the passage "out of context". It would therefore appears to be contrary to P&G. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 06:53, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
- If the intent of this edit is to make it more permissible to insert more icons, then I oppose. All that would do is encourage "decorators" to convert good prose into lists and tables (against MOS:USEPROSE) just so they could get away with adding more little pictures. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 17:54, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
- SMcCandlish, the intent of the edit was to clarify the statement per the heading of the section and the example, where the context was being misrepresent by quoting the previous words out of context. I do not see it as actually changing the advice at all. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 23:50, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
- So, what problem is it seeking to solve? If people are trying to say that icons cannot be used in a table of Olympics results, because the table is in the body, they're obviously wrong since the rest of the guideline makes it clear that such use is permissible. If there genuinely is an interpretation problem, then we have a WP:Writing policy is hard matter; changing the extant wording has to be done in a way that cannot be system-gamed. Cross-referencing other WP:P&G material is usually be best proof against such problems. E.g.: "Icons should not be used in prose in the article body. [Keep the existing example here.] However, prose should not be converted to a list or table as an excuse to include icons; only material that is best presented as a list or table should be in such a format." But I'm not sure if this addresses the original issue between you and PlanespotterA320, since I don't know where that conversation is. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 10:27, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
- SMcCandlish, it was much a case of the "obviously wrong", from quoting the text literally and out of the context of the section within which it was written (and the example) to mean a broader prohibition. My post was part of BRD. The matter is resolved here and elsewhere. If you feel it necessary to know more, message me. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 11:00, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
- So, what problem is it seeking to solve? If people are trying to say that icons cannot be used in a table of Olympics results, because the table is in the body, they're obviously wrong since the rest of the guideline makes it clear that such use is permissible. If there genuinely is an interpretation problem, then we have a WP:Writing policy is hard matter; changing the extant wording has to be done in a way that cannot be system-gamed. Cross-referencing other WP:P&G material is usually be best proof against such problems. E.g.: "Icons should not be used in prose in the article body. [Keep the existing example here.] However, prose should not be converted to a list or table as an excuse to include icons; only material that is best presented as a list or table should be in such a format." But I'm not sure if this addresses the original issue between you and PlanespotterA320, since I don't know where that conversation is. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 10:27, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
- SMcCandlish, the intent of the edit was to clarify the statement per the heading of the section and the example, where the context was being misrepresent by quoting the previous words out of context. I do not see it as actually changing the advice at all. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 23:50, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
Discussion at Talk:2019 Monte Carlo Rally#National flags
There is currently a discussion underway at Talk:2019 Monte Carlo Rally#National flags regarding the use of flagicons in articles for sporting events where there is no organised competition between nations. 1.144.108.211 (talk) 21:12, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
- Like Pelmeen10 said "Representing a nation has a much wider meaning than just competing against each other.", using flagicons should not be limited to representing countries. Removing flags is a ridiculous and unachievable idea because almost all sports-related WikiProjects used flagicons for years. If the flagicons have to be removed for the so-called "flagicons should only be used to indicate the nationality of someone representing their nation in competition", then there will be and certainly will be an earth-shaking impact to almost all sports-related WikiProjects like WP:F1, WP:Tennis, WP:Snooker, etc. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 01:46, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
- First paragraph: Icons may be helpful in certain situations: They are useful in articles about international sporting events, to show the representative nationality of players (which may differ from their legal nationality). Example: List of WPA World Nine-ball Champions. Pelmeen10 (talk) 04:01, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
- It is completely inappropriate to be posting these comments here. The purpose of starting this discussion is to inform editors of a discussion elsewhere. To continue a discussion here when there is another discussion elsewhere may be considered consensus-shopping—you don't get the result you want in one discussion, but you do get it in another, so you ignore the first and rely on the second. Case in point, you cite the MOS as a guideline here and suggest that editors are free to follow as they see fit, but here you voice opposition to the proposed change, citing the scale of the changes that would need to accomodate it. If, as your comment in the original discussion suggested, editors are free to observe or ignore the MOS as they see fit, then we are free to stop using the flagicons without worrying how it affects other articles. You cannot argue it both ways. At the very least it is very poor etiquette because it looks like you are trying to influence the course of the discussion separate to it. 1.144.108.211 (talk) 07:30, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
- First, my original point is that MOS is just a recommendation. However, I said per WP:SILENCE, adding flagicons is a consensus. That is to say, the action of adding flagicons or not is not decided by the recommendation, i.e. WP:ICON, which means flagicons should not be removed.
- Second, I agree with Pelmeen10's point. That is to say, even with the recommendation, flagicons still should be there because all drivers and co-drivers are naturally represent their country. That's the reason why the fans are proud of them after winning a event.
- Are they contradictory? No. They are progressive relations. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 08:40, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
- I agree, they are here to stay, and I don't really have any problem with them. Some people get bent out of shape if they see even one icon. My only observation is that if I were creating a auto racing or tennis page, I would do my best to link the icon the first time only with a person. So something like 2018 Miami Open – Men's Singles would have the opening round listed with flags but subsequent rounds would be sans flag. I don't see any real need to have them more than once, but that's just me... the vast majority of tennis editors disagree with me. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:21, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Fyunck(click) — I have suggested that as a compromise. In this article alone there are close to four hundred flagicons, most of which are repeated at least once after their first use. I don't see what that adds to the article other than padding it out. I estimate that we could save anywhere between 12,000 and 15,000kB of data from an article simply by cutting redundant flagicons out of it. 1.144.108.211 (talk) 10:14, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
- I agree, they are here to stay, and I don't really have any problem with them. Some people get bent out of shape if they see even one icon. My only observation is that if I were creating a auto racing or tennis page, I would do my best to link the icon the first time only with a person. So something like 2018 Miami Open – Men's Singles would have the opening round listed with flags but subsequent rounds would be sans flag. I don't see any real need to have them more than once, but that's just me... the vast majority of tennis editors disagree with me. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:21, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
Flags and military commanders
![](https://web.archive.org/web/20190411063013im_/https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/1/1d/Information_icon4.svg/20px-Information_icon4.svg.png)
Please see Talk:Sino-Vietnamese conflicts, 1979–1991#RfC – a MOS:FLAGS matter, about military commanders. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 06:25, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
Notice of conversation of interest
Hi. Notice of conversation at Talk:2019 World Snooker Championship regarding usage of flags within sporting articles. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:27, 10 April 2019 (UTC)