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Irreligion In the united states
I moved this part to you talk page, as it is more personal criticism than is good for the talk page.
Do you agree with this table?
Religiosity question | Spirituality question | % |
---|---|---|
yes | yes | 48% |
yes | no | 6% |
no | yes | 27% |
no | no | 18% |
I think this is a straightforward conversion of the figure in the authority (including the caption and explanation in the text). From the table it is clear the number of people who answered no to whether they considered themselves religious is 45%-46% and the number of people who answered yes to whether these considered themselves religious is 54%. The last is also mentioned in the authority. I don't think you can get much light between "irreligious" and not "religious", and we don't have any data whether people consider themselves "irreligious". Please also read Wikipedia:No_original_research#Routine calculations and Wikipedia:About_valid_routine_calculations and Wikipedia:What SYNTH is not#SYNTH is not numerical summarization and Wikipedia:What SYNTH is not#SYNTH is not an advocacy tool. You are crying of irresponsible "extrapolation", "synthesization" while all I am doing is adding two numbers from a figure. Moreover, you are taking everything but the kitchen sink into a discussion about the how the researchers processed and represented the data, and refuse to answer simple questions about your understanding of the article, which would help resolve the matter much quicker that all these evasions. All we are discussing here is how many people answered "no" or "not" or in other ways negatively to to the question "Generally speaking, do you think of yourself as a religious person, or not". It's really that simple. You appear not to agree with the result. You appear concerned with what readers will think about Americans when reading the result. I told you already that other indicators could be useful. But that's no reason to cry WP:SYN over and over again.
I was TRYING to get to that the "result of the calculation is obvious, correct, and a meaningful reflection" of the sources, by trying to clear up what the confusion was. But due to your repeated evasiveness on VERY SPECIFIC QUESTIONS about statements in the authority it is impossible to come to a consensus. Empty statements like "It is as it reads." are NOT an explanation of what you think what they mean by "The results presented here are the product of combining responses to those two questions.", which (to me appears to indicate) that they split up the "not religious" into the ones that ticked "spiritual" and "not spiritual", and you did not confirm you agreed to that when specifically asked.
It's impossible to know what people think when they consider themselves "generally speaking" religious. Maybe they say no because they are didn't go to confession last month, or because they are not a monk, the pope or Jesus, or because of stigma. But asking them questions like that is not the worst way.
About affiliation: many people probably consider themselves part of certain communities. How many people believe in Hell/God may be a better indicator, who knows. But the only sources I have for whether people consider themselves not religious when asked straight up are pretty consistently in the 40-45% range and going up rapidly. Jmv2009 (talk) 19:35, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
- Not sure why this is here, but there isn't much to discuss, aside from what is already on the talk page. Routine calculations are simple arithmetic when things are not controversial. Like it says on the policy page "Basic arithmetic, such as adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age, is allowed provided there is consensus among editors that the calculation is an obvious, correct, and meaningful reflection of the sources." If we were talking about simple things like age, or population size or other simple and obvious matter, it would not be controversial.
- But here we are talking about really complex things like religion and irreligion which include beliefs, belonging and behavior. So with you clumping 45% into "not religious" is NOT "Basic arithmetic, such as adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age..." because the meaning of "religious" and "not religious" are NOT obvious! Again the majority of the "unaffiliated" have religious beliefs (Belief in God 68%) and those who are "spiritual but not religious" are mostly people with a religion (60%)! Clearly the meanings are both VERY complex - are those without a religion, religious? And are the religious, nonreligious? They all seem to go in both ranges in one way or another and so the simplification of "Religious" or "Not religious" is not helpful, nor is it what the source says. If you want to use another statistic to twist facts, the you might as well say that since most Americans are affiliated with a religion (around 80% based on Pew Research center's Religious Landscape) that America is a very religious place. (I would disagree with that oversimplification too since the dynamics are more complex than that.) The fact that most people affiliate with a religion in the US, should make you rethink of labeling a massive chunk as "not religious".
- Since you admit that "It's impossible to know what people think when they consider themselves "generally speaking" religious.", then why do you make a value judgment in the voice of wikipedia! If the source said it specifically, then attribution would solve the issue, but the source does not make that claim - you are deducing a different conclusion by yourself. The question from Pew on religious person or spiritual person (and even WIN-Gallup's clumsy wording) was not really a good one since it was either yes or no. There was no room for flexible answers despite the fact that everyone has shades of religiosity and secularity. So these rigid numbers are not really representative. If a survey asked you if you were "loyal to Britain" yes or no, would the ones who said yes be patriots and the others traitors? I think you get the idea. Such dichotomies must be contextualized, not isolated.
- The easiest and straightest things on the source you mentioned is that 18% are neither religious nor spiritual. It is also the most relevant for the irreligion article since clearly these 18% are rejecting everything and not juggling around labels like religious or spiritual.
- Also if you believe that lumping is straight forward, then why can't you cite a direct quote specifying your claim? I did for mine and I even quoted them in the citation. If the source specifically says 45% are "not religious" then you can add that since the source made the claims and meaning and interpretation, not you or me. You and I are editors, not experts on the issues so inserting our interpretation of the numbers on such complex things like religion are not simple basic arithmetic with obvious meaning. The sources have to make the interpretation when dealing with non obvious things like religion or spirituality or irreligion. Readers can make their own interpretations on all of the mess of beliefs, belonging, and behavior by reading the sources. Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 23:46, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
See, you are still evading/not addressing
A) Whether you agree with the table
B) Conflating data processing methodology (which is mathematics)/data processing with whether the right questions were asked.
C) How YOU interpret "The results presented here are the product of combining responses to those two questions."
D) Whether you think they split up the people who responded negatively to the religiosity question according to how they responded to the spirituality question.
You are still accusing of
E) twisting data/extrapolating/drawing improper conclusions (we are not drawing conclusions, certainly not at this point, we are just trying to see if we agree on the "how many people answered negatively to the religiosity question?", as we don't appear to agree on that)
All we are doing here, for now, is to see if we agree on whether the calculation is correct and obvious.
Let me unpack your comment:
So with you clumping 45% into "not religious" is NOT "Basic arithmetic, such as adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age..." because the meaning of "religious" and "not religious" are NOT obvious!
You are conflating two things here:
(i) Whether the meaning of "religious" and "not religious" is obvious or not (to the interviewed and/or the reader).
(ii) Whether they answered negatively or positively to the religiosity question.
These are two very different questions. You are addressing (i), while I am trying to addressing (ii). The (ii) is I think well represented by the table, and I think is clear, while (i) is philosophizing/speculation, which we all agree we should not do. Please state your view on (ii): Do we know how many people answered negatively to the religiosity question? It's that simple.
By the way, although your essay skills are high, you are still flunking that 8th grade math test. Jmv2009 (talk) 06:18, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
- Please also do not make insults here. I already told you how to provide a solution, but in you making interpretations on a Pew report which does not even discuss nonreligosity to extract your interpretation of non religiosity is disingenuous and in fact WP:SYN says: "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article. If a single source says "A" in one context, and "B" in another, without connecting them, and does not provide an argument of "therefore C", then "therefore C" cannot be used in any article."
- You are not providing an actual quote or anything for your lumping. How does people answering no “Do you think of yourself as a religious person, or not?” equate to they are "not religious" in anyway? This is common mistake for people who are unfamiliar with the sociology of religion or with surveys on such matters. To go from "not a religious person" to assume "not religious" is the problem. If people were to say no to a question like, “Do you think of yourself as a jealous person, or not?” would you all of a sudden assume automatically that they are not jealous in anyway at all throughout their lives? "Religious person" is an identity, being "religious" is behavior or attribute. Here is an easy example of how identity and behavior/attributes are usually not congruent. Pew did an analysis of people who do not have belief in God and found that most do not self-identify as "atheist" [1]. They wrote "According to the U.S. Religious Landscape Survey, conducted by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life, 5% of American adults say they do not believe in God or a universal spirit, but only about a quarter (24%) of these nonbelievers actually call themselves atheists." Since the majority of those who lack a belief in god, do not identify as "atheists", does that mean they actually do believe in God? Of course not. This is the type of analysis that spreads apart the variables, not lumping them like you are trying to do.
- So obviously definitions do matter!! These are not routine calculations because the understandings are not linear. Identity vs behavior do not match at all and many people actually conflate the two. People have have contradictory identities and different behaviors. So this is part of the issue.
- In sociology of religion; beliefs, belonging and behavior are not the same. I expect you to do a better analysis of the report. The solution is simple, as I have said many times already does the source say that 45% are not religious EXPLICITLY? I have quoted the source in broad context since the situation is complex and have stuck to the source. Pew is actually more careful on how they word these reports because they know that there are many dynamics at play. Lumping can be an issue on wikipedia because you can easily re-lump the numbers like this: 27%+54%= 81% of the US population is either religious or spiritual. I would object to that kind of lumping too, though it is just as valid as your lumping. Half empty or half full? I think that the numbers should be kept like the source has them - separated to prevent subjective lumping by editors. Let readers interpret how they want with the separate variables (as the source has them) and they can even looks at the source directly, we should not interpret the data into lumps because it inflates numbers and mixes the variables too much. Please continue on the irreligion talk page next time since this really has nothing to do with me and there is no need to get personal.
- Pretty much the source is in the article and the complex interaction is already there too. All this is about is an incorrect lumping in an info box, which the source does not do - they keep things seperate. Why you are wasting much ink over it is beyond me. Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 07:20, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
A barnstar for you
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The Anti-Vandalism Barnstar | |
This is for your valuable efforts for reverting and protecting enwiki from Vandalism PATH SLOPU (Talk) 07:38, 26 August 2018 (UTC) |
ArbCom 2018 election voter message
CindyRoleder
Hi, I noticed at Talk:Irreligion that you had identified an IP editor as a sockpuppet of blocked user Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/CindyRoleder. I believe you're correct, and I've reported them. I've also "hatted" their comments. In the future, it would be great if you could report any suspected sockpuppets to WP:SPI and then ignore them, rather than expressing your suspicions on talk pages, or carrying on conversations with them. See Wikipedia:Dealing with sock puppets § If you think someone is a sock puppet..., and the other information on that page. Thanks! --IamNotU (talk) 18:17, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
- @IamNotU: Thanks so much for your actions and recommended wikipages for future instances! I will follow your lead for future suspicions. I will add some feedback on the sock puppet page. Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 03:44, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
Signature
Hello Ramos1990. Per WP:SIGN it would be helpful if your signature agreed with your user name: A customised signature should make it easy to identify the username, to visit the user's talk-page, and preferably user page. The name User:Huitzilopochtli1990 appears to be available if you want to change your name. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 03:30, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- For sure will look into these options. Appreciate the input. I kept the 1990 to help others know that it is me. If you click on my signature, it links to my page too. Huitzilopochtli1990 (talk) 08:19, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
- I am closing WP:Sockpuppet investigations/CindyRoleder regarding the two IPs that you commented on. If you notice the same IPs editing at es:Irreligión, you might inform es:Usuario:Taichi and see if any sanctions are appropriate on eswiki. Global blocks are not easy to arrange, but we can work with specific Wikipedias. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 03:11, 1 April 2019 (UTC)