"WP:DRN" redirects here. For the "Deny Recognition" essay, see
WP:DNR.
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Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)
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This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. "Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups.
Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN.
Do you need assistance?
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Would you like to help?
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If we can't help you, a volunteer will point you in the right direction. Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, objective and as nice as possible.
- This noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment on the contributions, not the contributors. Off-topic or uncivil behavior may garner a warning, improper material may be struck-out, collapsed, or deleted, and a participant could be asked to step back from the discussion.
- We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other content or conduct dispute resolution forums or in decision-making processes such as Requests for comments, Articles for deletion, or Requested moves.
- The dispute must have been recently discussed extensively on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to be eligible for help at DRN.
- Ensure that you deliver a notice to each person you add to the case filing by leaving a notice on their user talk page. DRN has a notice template you can post to their user talk page by using the code shown here: {{subst:drn-notice}}. Be sure to sign and date each notice with four tildes (~~~~). Giving notice on the article talk page in dispute or relying on linking their names here will not suffice.
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If you need help:
If you need a helping hand just ask a volunteer, who will assist you.
- This is not a court with judges or arbitrators that issue binding decisions: we focus on resolving disputes through consensus, compromise, and advice about policy.
- For general questions relating to the dispute resolution process, please see our FAQ page.
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We are always looking for new volunteers and everyone is welcome. Click the volunteer button above to join us, and read over the volunteer guide to learn how to get started. Being a volunteer on this page is not formal in any respect, and it is not necessary to have any previous dispute resolution experience. However, having a calm and patient demeanor and a good knowledge of Wikipedia policies and guidelines is very important. It's not mandatory to list yourself as a volunteer to help here, anyone is welcome to provide input.
Volunteers should remember:
- Volunteers should gently and politely help the participant fix problems. Suggest alternative venues if needed. Try to be nice and engage the participants.
- Volunteers do not have any special powers, privileges, or authority in DRN or in Wikipedia, except as noted here. Volunteers who have had past dealings with the article, subject matter, or with the editors involved in a dispute which would bias their response must not act as a volunteer on that dispute. If any editor objects to a volunteer's participation in a dispute, the volunteer must either withdraw or take the objection to the DRN talk page to let the community comment upon whether or not the volunteer should continue in that dispute.
- Listed volunteers open a case by signing a comment in the new filing. When closing a dispute, please mark it as "closed" in the status template (see the volunteer guide for more information), remove the entire line about 'donotarchive' so that the bot will archive it after 48 with no other edits.
Open/close quick reference
- To open, replace {{DR case status}} with {{DR case status|open}}
- To close, replace the "open" with "resolved", "failed", or "closed". Add {{DRN archive top|reason=(reason here) ~~~~}} beneath the case status template, and add {{DRN archive bottom}} at the bottom of the case. Remember to remove the DoNotArchive bit line (the entire line).
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Case |
Created |
Last volunteer edit |
Last modified |
Title |
Status |
User |
Time |
User |
Time |
User |
Time |
Template:Star Control |
In Progress |
Voidvector (t) |
17 days, 20 hours |
Nightenbelle (t) |
10 hours |
Voidvector (t) |
4 hours |
Big Lie |
Closed |
Soibangla (t) |
10 days, 2 hours |
Nightenbelle (t) |
2 days, 11 hours |
Nightenbelle (t) |
2 days, 11 hours |
Anocracy |
Closed |
Rkerver (t) |
8 days, 12 hours |
Nightenbelle (t) |
8 days, 12 hours |
Nightenbelle (t) |
8 days, 12 hours |
Park Yoo chun |
Closed |
20footfish (t) |
7 days, 10 hours |
Nightenbelle (t) |
7 days, 9 hours |
Nightenbelle (t) |
7 days, 9 hours |
Uyghur genocide |
Closed |
Sarrotrkux (t) |
6 days, 7 hours |
Nightenbelle (t) |
3 days, 11 hours |
Nightenbelle (t) |
3 days, 11 hours |
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michael Sayman |
Closed |
Example (t) |
Unknown |
Nightenbelle (t) |
6 days, 3 hours |
Nightenbelle (t) |
6 days, 3 hours |
Michael Sayman |
Closed |
Example (t) |
Unknown |
Nightenbelle (t) |
6 days, 3 hours |
Nightenbelle (t) |
6 days, 3 hours |
.eco |
Failed |
Davidwr (t) |
1 days, 2 hours |
Robert McClenon (t) |
1 hours |
Robert McClenon (t) |
1 hours |
List of wars and anthropogenic disasters by death toll |
Closed |
Danielbr11 (t) |
8 hours |
TransporterMan (t) |
5 hours |
TransporterMan (t) |
5 hours |
If you would like a regularly-updated copy of this status box on your user page or talk page, put {{DRN case status}} on your page. Click on that link for more options.
Last updated by MDanielsBot (talk) at 02:00, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
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Current disputes
Template:Star Control
– Discussion in progress.
Filed by
Voidvector on 06:48, 19 January 2021 (UTC).
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
The dispute is over inclusion of the following articles in the template:
Current template only includes the Star Control games from the 1990s by Toys for Bob (Reiche & Ford) or Accolade -- Star Control, Star Control II, and Star Control 3.
The trademark of "Star Control" was purchased in 2013 by Stardock in Atari bankruptcy auction. They released Star Control: Origins in 2018. However, there was an IP dispute between the parties, resulting in the case Stardock Systems, Inc. v. Reiche with settlement. (See Stardock Systems, Inc. v. Reiche#Final settlement)
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Template_talk:Star Control#Stardock
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
Determine whether Stardock, Star Control: Origins, and Stardock Systems, Inc. v. Reiche should be included Template:Star Control. Potential options:
Summary of dispute by Shooterwalker
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
- I've tried to work with Voidvector, citing guidelines and sources, and offering compromises.
- The dispute concerns two game series sharing the same title: the Star Control trilogy from 1990, and Star Control: Origins from 2018.
- Standard practice for two games with the same title is to disambiguate with a WP:HATNOTE. See WP:VG/MOS. For how this is applied, see Fight Night/Fight Night, Portal/Portal, Overlord/Overlord/Overlord, Crack Down/Crackdown, Fable/Fable, Star Fox/Star Fox.
- WP:VG/MOS also applies to game series templates. See templates for Fight Night series, Portal series, Overlord series, Crackdown, Fable series, and Star Fox, which do not include the other games they share their name with. This practice is so consistent that it is uniform.
- Voidvector has pushed their WP:POV about the two series, and resorted to attacks. ("the original series is dead", "I am happy that Stardock is willing to revive (and bring attention) to the franchise", "your position is simply gatekeeping fanboyism") [1]
- Voidvector also crept up to the WP:3RR on Template:Star Control after I asked to discuss first.
- As our discussion went on, Voidvector started a new discusssion at a good article about the original series, and implied it might be nominated for deletion.[2]
- I have avoided taking the WP:BAIT, repeatedly citing our practices and guidelines. (WP:DISAMBIGUATION, WP:VG/MOS, WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, WP:RS, WP:V)
- After an effort to bring Voidvector back on topic, we agreed to include a WP:HATNOTE for disambiguation, which they added.[3]
- Nonetheless, the dispute has gone on.
- For clarity, there was a well-documented lawsuit that started and ended with the two series operating separately. (In the needlessly complex lawsuit, Stardock sued the 1990s developers to gain the Copyright. Stardock did hope to win the rights to make a fourth game in the same series/universe, but ended with only the name, back where they started.)
- Most recently, Voidvector has criticized me for not adding to a talkpage table they created. I'm doing my best to bring our discussion back on topic with sources and guidelines, and they are not responding in-kind. I thought we found a compromise,[4] but they have since escalated this to WP:DR.
- My main goal is to represent these two separate topics based on the sources, rather than WP:POV.
- Another important goal is to avoid the clutter of a "related links" section, as the original Star Control was highly influential in the space genre, with numerous imitators.[5] To prevent an endlessly growing list of "related links", I'm taking guidance from MOS:NOTSEEALSO, "as a general rule, the see also section should not repeat links that appear in the article's body". The new series is already mentioned in the article body, and Voidvector already added a hatnote. A hatnote is literally the first line of the article, and this should more than satisfy our goals of disambiguation and navigation.
Template:Star Control discussion
Collapsing discussion and reminding those involved not to continue discussion until a volunteer signs on to mediate the case. Nightenbelle ( talk) 21:27, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
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Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
I did not state my position in the submission -- I am for adding Star Control: Origins and Stardock (trademark owner) for the purpose of "navigational aid", since this is a navbox.
Shooterwalker (talk · contribs) appears disagree with their addition. His primary argument appears to be on the grounds that they are not the same series (diff developers & canon/lore). However, Stardock owns the trademark. Gameplay-wise Star Control: Origins is inspired by Star Control II. From my perspective, the remaining arguments by Shooterwalker (talk · contribs) are simple refusal of my positions using unrelated rules, straw maning my words, cherry-picking of examples/citations. --Voidvector (talk) 07:24, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- I'm here. I documented the dispute with diffs and guidelines. I'd very much rather hear from anyone else now. Shooterwalker (talk) 17:37, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- I was invited to discuss this by Voidvector. I am not sure if I should respond here or at the other talk page but I don't think we should add Stardock or another game. All the reliable sources agree that the games don't share anything except the name and some inspiration. The games are disconnected by 25 years and two unrelated companies. I don't know if Voidvector wants to include or ignore the "in universe" factors but they are also disconnected stories and settings. I followed the lawsuit and I think the confusion is that the settlement makes it sound like the original series will be renamed the "Ur-Quan Masters" franchise but we still call it "Star Control". Its been "Star Control" for 30 years. I don't agree with the bias that "the original series is basically dead" but you could say the original trilogy officially ended in 1996. Now journalists talk about SCO as a new series even if they hoped for a sequel or prequel. This is explained at the Star Control article with reliable sources and links to SCO. I agree that a list of Star Control related games would be too long and the article already mentions Stardock anyway. I see that Voidvector added SCO as a disambigation line in Star Control so that should settle it. Jorahm (talk) 20:03, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- Can you clarify who is "Voidwalker"? I believe you are conflating our usernames. --Voidvector (talk) 22:09, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- You're the one who tagged me and I did conflate it. Fixed. I fixed the quote too. Jorahm (talk) 22:47, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
There are a lot of misrepresentation here -- for example, I never actually said "the original series is dead". My actual words are "Until release of Ghosts of the Precursors (currently vaporware), the original series is basically dead." Above participates have both used this as a "straw man". (I am going to keep this reply brief, since volunteer has not joined.)
In addition, if you were to follow the thread, I have already offered compromise by suggesting we should list them as "Related articles", while my counterpart(s) has not compromised at all. My primary goal is to simply provide "navigational aid" (i.e. MOS:LINK) so anything that achieves that goal between all these articles is palatable to me. --Voidvector (talk) 22:09, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
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Volunteer's Message 1
Hi, my name is Nightenbelle and I'm willing to mediate this discussion. I have read the relevant talk pages and articles and before we begin I have a few questions- 1st- are all parties willing to make a good faith effort to resolve this? As a reminder, participation in the DRN is voluntary and no one is under any obligation to participate. 2nd, do you all agree to review the rules at the top of the page and follow them as well as remaining civil throughout the discussion? Nightenbelle (talk) 20:41, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
I will give the other editors 24 more hours to respond and then I will have to close this discussion. I am sorry that it took so long for a mediator to volunteer- but we are a bit understaffed right now, and it is difficult to mediate more than one case per volunteer at a time. Nightenbelle (talk) 00:14, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
Editor's Responses
I agree fully to mediation and enter in good faith. I pledge to comment exclusively on content and its merits. In addition, will agree to settlement of DRN regardless of outcome. --Voidvector (talk) 01:11, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
I will try to be more active. I know this dispute started on the template discussion but I would advise discussing some of the recent edits on the Star Control vs Origins pages. I will make a good faith effort to resolve this and remain civil and defer to the mediator. Thank you for volunteering. Jorahm (talk) 20:26, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
Just getting to this now. I'll continue to make good faith and civil efforts to resolve this. I think a neutral and patient mediator will help bring this to a close. Shooterwalker (talk) 19:09, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
Volunteer Message 2
Shooterwalker Having a family emergency is totally understandable, and we can absolutely un-archive / re-open a dispute. In the future, however, please contact the mediator rather than just undo it yourself- there are some templates that we need that can be easily deleted.
Okay folks- lets begin! 1st question- what would each of you consider to be a fair and equitable compromise- not your personal best case scenario- but what you think a good compromise would be? The purpose of this is to see how far apart we are to begin with. At this point- I would remind you to please not engage with or respond to each other- just give your best compromise and we will move on from there. Nightenbelle (talk) 15:40, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
Editor's Responses
I have already mentioned my compromise in the creation of this DRN. I can further refine that compromise to only ask for the listing of Star Control: Origins (the game itself) as what I referred to as "Related articles" row. The link Stardock can be omitted as this is the case for Template:Fallout series and Template:Wasteland. In additional, I am willing to offer the actual naming of this "Related articles" row to my counterparty to whatever they see fit such that they can distance the original franchise from it (e.g. "Related franchises"). --Voidvector (talk) 20:55, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
Game templates are not supposed to list every related article (and there are always many). For example, Archon (game) actually has the same dev as the original Star Control series in addition to the shared title (StarCon) and game design template but it’s better to describe this in the article than to clump it in a random list of “related links”. The current template doesn’t even list every person who worked on the Star Control trilogy (and it shouldn’t), so it would be even more confusing to add the unconnected developer of an unconnected series from 30 years later. I don’t see the relationship between these series outside of the lawsuit over the naming rights. I would contest whether many people would accidentally visit Star Control when they search for Origins, but it does look like a disambiguation “hatnote” at Star Control was discussed as a compromise. It was added without my participation or consent but I could accept that as a compromise in good faith. However if there isn’t satisfying to anyone I would prefer to revert to the status quo in early January before the dispute. (At least until we discuss further.) An additional compromise would be to create a new template if and when Stardock does a sequel to Origins, and if there is a dispute over the template names I am sure that can be cleared up using reliable sources once journalists decide how to cover Stardock’s games. Another compromise that would help readers is to add a hatnote to the article about the naming dispute covered at the Stardock Systems, Inc. v. Reiche which also explains the status of each series but I think it’s good enough to mention it in the text. Jorahm (talk) 22:08, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
Volunteer Message 3
So what I'm seeing is Voidvector sees including the unrelated game as a related article is their fair compromise and Jorahm sees not including the game in the template but including the existing hatnote as a good compromise and re-addressing if there are future sequels. Folks... neither of these are a compromise- they are just re-stating your original point.
So lets try something different. could both of you please provide a list of other game templates that include different games by different companies that are not related? If we can see how some other franchises have handled this- it might give some ideas of how this could be handled here. Nightenbelle (talk) 17:35, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
Editor's Responses
There are several other game templates that have addressed how to cover different games by different companies that are not related, but still had to work out the naming rights.
- Fight Night: Template, 2011 series, 1985 game -- no link in template or articles
- Portal: Template, 2007 series, 1986 game -- no link in template or articles
- Fable: Template, 2004 series, 1986 game -- no link in template or articles
- Overlord: Template, 2007 series, 1994 game -- no link in template, one article has a WP:HATNOTE to disambiguation page
- Crackdown: Template, 2007 series, 1989 game -- no link in template, one article has a WP:HATNOTE to other article
- Star Fox: Template, 1993 series, 1983 game, 1987 game -- no link in template, all articles have a WP:HATNOTE to disambiguation page
I'm late to talking through a compromise. It is true that the WP:HATNOTE was something I thought might help reach a consensus, and is at least consistent with policy and some games with the same name. But it doesn't look like anybody is actually happy with that compromise. I suppose if you scratched hard enough I'd say the games have different titles and don't need the hat note, but I think the very definition of a compromise is a solution where nobody is particularly happy. Another idea would be to change the title of this template so as to pre-emptively differentiate it from whatever template the Stardock series might eventually use. Shooterwalker (talk) 20:52, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
Just as a quick note, I added a few pages where the dispute spilled over (in the edit history). Shooterwalker (talk) 20:58, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
Those are related titles. The following quotes from reputable game media demonstrating the relationship.
- "While Star Control: Origins bears the name of the series, it's officially a hard reboot, set in a fresh universe with some similar concepts." from Rock Paper Shotgun
- "Publisher Stardock is reviving the Star Control series with its own update called Star Control: Origins" from Venturebeat
- "Star Control: Origins is the first game in the series since the maligned Star Control 3, and its roots are deeply grounded within the mechanics of Star Control 2." from Destructoid
- "The company [Stardock] announced plans for a new Star Control title that would be heavily inspired by the franchise's most famous entry, Star Control 2." from Arstechnica
The best relationship to describe them is "reboot" (per Rock Paper Shotgun) or "clone" or "expand universe" or "fan game".
Here are some examples of templates that list unrelated games per moderator request:
Those are all blockbuster games so the templates are well trafficked by both editors and readers
On Shooterwalker's compromise of renaming/recharacterizing the template, I would be amendable to that if the new template: 1) mentions distinguishing characteristics in template title and navbox title (i.e. 1990s series or Reiche/Ford); 2) link to trademark dispute Stardock Systems, Inc. v. Reiche article. If that's the case, I do not feel the need for inclusion of Star Control: Origins, as the template would have provided readers of sufficient context and navigational aid -- those being 1) this is limited to the 1990s series, 2) there was an IP dispute. --Voidvector (talk) 23:17, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
Big Lie
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by
Soibangla on 01:04, 27 January 2021 (UTC).
Closed discussion
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- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
I added the sentence: "The expression later came to be associated with Donald Trump" to the lead, which I assert proportionately summarizes a corresponding section in the body. The sentence was reverted.
On Talk, three editors assert the sentence does not pass NPOV/due and undue weight. I maintain their stated rationales do not have a plausible basis in Wikipedia policy.
[[NB: since the initial Talk discussion, I added additional references in the body to establish that the content is DUE, and therefore "lead summarizes body" justifies a proportionate mention in the lead. Some/many of these references can later be trimmed.]
I want to emphasize that no effort is being made here to associate Trump with Hitler, but rather to show others have associated him with a concept that has not been previously described in the article in any post-war context, but is now being associated with Trump in a modern context.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Big_lie#Inclusion_of_Trump_in_lead
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
I assert this is a case in which the consensus is incorrect and the sentence should be restored in the lead.
Summary of dispute by NedFausa
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by KIENGIR
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
The current political events causing a big overhead in the related articles, especially political shoapboaxing, from the moderate way to the insanity, and neutrality may easily be forgotten unfortunately, this is espcially visible for outsiders/uninvolved editors (the page is trolled by POV-pushers in a daily manner from both directions). Indeed yes, lead summarize body, not it does not mean we would include everything in the the lead. The Trump issue is a recent overloaded shoap at all aspects, taking any sides by new insertions may suggest being involved or abandon neutrality. Trump is surely not commensurable with those one in the lead mentioned, so I would avoid such trials.(KIENGIR (talk) 06:02, 27 January 2021 (UTC))
- @Nightenbelle:,
- I think you may close this issue, since besides the formal/procedural mistakes of it's opening, not even the nominator took it serious or participated in it actively, that is quite odd, and noone else will. Any volunteer's advices I noted and will mind them, the talk page discussions are ongoing anyway. Regards(KIENGIR (talk) 15:00, 3 February 2021 (UTC))
Summary of dispute by Novem Linguae
I'm not sure this is worth a lot of time and effort. There's a 3-1 consensus to not include this in the lead. There's some editors in the article that want to give more WP:WEIGHT to Donald Trump in the lead and/or in the Donald Trump section, but some of us disagree with this weight. It's a historical article, and giving Donald Trump a lot of weight seems to be a case of WP:RECENT. –Novem Linguae (talk) 01:46, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
Big Lie discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
- Volunteer Note - The filing editor has not yet notified the other editors on their talk pages. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:51, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
- Volunteer Note - There is a local consensus of 3-1 against the filing editor. The options for the filing editor, who is in the minority, are to try to discuss with the other editors to reach a compromise, or to obtain a larger consensus by Request for Comments. Either approach will be supported at this noticeboard after the other editors are notified. (That is, if they want an RFC, a volunteer will help draft the RFC neutrally. If they want discussion leading to compromise, a volunteer will mediate, but no promises are made.) Robert McClenon (talk) 03:51, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
** Robert McClenon, I do not see that user Talk page notification is required for topics in this “informal” forum, and I pinged the three editors on the article Talk page in a fully transparent manner such that any other interested editors could also participate. Perhaps consider striking your fallacious comment as it is potentially prejudicial against me. soibangla (talk) 19:33, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
- Volunteer Note - My statement is correct, because the editors were not notified on their talk pages. It is true that they were pinged, and for that reason this case will remain open, waiting for a volunteer to accept it, if another volunteer is willing to accept a case filed by an editor who has already insulted one volunteer. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:51, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
*** Robert McClenon, Yes, your statement that they were not notified on their Talk pages is correct, except that unlike in other matters in other forums, such notification is not required here, and so your mentioning of this potentially creates a false impression that I am not following the rules, which tends to cast a prejudicial pall on my filing. I now ask you more directly to strike it. soibangla (talk) 19:58, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
- Volunteer NoteSoibangla You are incorrect- the rules of this board are clearly stated at the top: "Ensure that you deliver a notice to each person you add to the case filing by leaving a notice on their user talk page. DRN has a notice template you can post to their user talk page by using the code shown here: (Template deleted for space) Giving notice on the article talk page in dispute or relying on linking their names here will not suffice." So- I strognly suggest you stop arguing with the volunteers and notify the users and return to this board with an atitude that will encourage volunteers to be willing to mediate and also encourage the others involved to overturn the already existing consensus and discuss your desired improvements. I would also remind you that participation in this discussion is voluntary for all involved- the users you have a disagreement with, and the volunteers. Nightenbelle (talk) 20:56, 27 January 2021 (UTC)
- I think the words you are looking for is I’m sorry I was combative Robert, I’ll strike through my wrong comments like I tried to make you do when you politely asked me to follow protocol. Nightenbelle (talk) 02:47, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- Comment - I came to this issue recently after looking for information about "the big lie" w.r.t. statements in the news. I do not believe one or two sentences in the lede constitute WP:RECENT or WP:UNDUE. UserTwoSix (talk) 22:52, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
Volunteer Message
This is the next case in line for a volunteer to jump on- however, the only two volunteers currently active are myself and Robert McClenon. Since he has already recused himself- that leaves me. Are the users involved willing to have me mediate or would you rather either do an RFC or hold off until we get another volunteer. I will not take it personally if you would rather I not mediate. Nightenbelle (talk) 16:36, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Anocracy
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by
Rkerver on 14:52, 28 January 2021 (UTC).
Park Yoo chun
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by
20footfish on 17:36, 29 January 2021 (UTC).
Uyghur genocide
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by
Sarrotrkux on 20:10, 30 January 2021 (UTC).
Closed discussion
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- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
The page "Uyghur genocide" includes an image of a random young girl and an old lady. Those images do not serve any informative or encyclopaedic function in the article, and apparently the only reason they were added is to imply that "this is how an Uyghur looks like". As such, two other editors and I believe they should be removed from the page, as we do not believe that Wikipedia should promote generalisations of an ethnicity based on the looks of one or two individuals. As far as I can see, this is also the consensus that was reached on previous discussions about this matter; images of individuals should not be added for the purposes of ethnic generalisation, as they are inherently exclusive and unscientific.
However, three other editors (Horse Eye's Back, My very best wishes, TucanHolmes) claim that the images serve as an "illustrative aid", although I have not seen them be able to come up with an argument of what exactly is supposed to be illustrated by the images other than the aforementioned generalisation of an entire ethnicity. "TucanHolmes" and "my very best wishes" are arguing with MOS:PERTINENCE to "keep them until we have better ones", but as far as I can see, MOS:PERTINENCE does not condone ethnic generalisations in the first place.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Talk:Uyghur_genocide#Including_random_photos_of_a_uyghur_child_and_grandmother_relating_to_Marriage_incentives_makes_no_sense
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
Clarify whether the inclusion of images for the sole purpose of ethnic generalisation is suitable for Wikipedia.
Summary of dispute by Stonksboi
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by PailSimon
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Horse Eye's Back
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
There have been a lot of involved editors but I don’t think anyone has actually argued that we should be using these images "for the sole purpose of ethnic generalisation” (if I’m wrong I’d like to be shown a diff). It seems like one heck of a leading question, one only loosely based in reality. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:48, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- That is what I gathered from the comments of the editors involved. For example, TucanHolmes said, I quote: "This article is about an ethnic group, so showing members of that ethnic groups help people visualise the topic (it helped me, for one)." They are humans. Why exactly would someone need help visualising how a human looks like except for pigeonholing? Does a Silesian look different from a Swabian? Does an Andalusian look different from a Castillian? If I showed you ten pictures of random people, Uyghurs and non-Uyghurs, do you think you could tell them apart by their looks? If not, then including images of random individuals serves no informational purpose. Sarrotrkux (talk) 02:35, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by My very best wishes
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by TucanHolmes
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Mikehawk10
The talk page has been having an ordinary, albeit contested, discussion regarding whether or not to include two pictures within the page. One of these pictures is that of an older Uyghur woman wearing a hijab, while the other is of a young, female Child. Of those who believe that the images should be kept (4 editors, when I am included), there is general agreement that the reason for them to be kept is based in MOS:PERTINENCE, and that they should be kept until better images are found. Of those who do not believe the images should be kept (3 editors), the general argument is that the images are irrelevant to the article, and/or that they don't provide additional understanding. I am unsure why I was initially left out of this, since I am involved (and support maintaining the images on the page).
Aside from the substantive debate on the article contents, which I have described above, one of my comments was split in two on the talk page by Sarrotrkux and thereby refactored (I have since placed my comments back together). Outside of the talk page itself, stonksboi has alleged that Horse Eye's Back is a "staunch anti-China troll", which likely constitutes a personal attack. He also noted that he suspected that I am HEB's sockpuppet, which I am not (and this can be confirmed by a checkuser).
It should be noted that stonksboi has previously been blocked by EdJohnston for edit warring on the 2022 Winter Olympics page, where the user repeatedly deleted information that referred to the ongoing Uyghur genocide and the 2019-2020 Hong Kong protests, after being reported by Normchou. Mikehawk10 (talk) 22:08, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
Uyghur genocide discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
- Volunteer Comment Typically disputes with more than 4 editors do not work out on the DRN. I would reccomend an WP:RFC instead. There have also been allegations of Behavioral issues, which belong at WP:ANI. the DRN will not decide issues- we will only mediate a compromise. IF this is what all involved editors want- please reply to this comment saying you understand and are willing to participate in a mediated discussion towards a compromise. Other than that please do not engage in back and forth discussion until a volunteer agrees to take on this case. Nightenbelle (talk) 00:12, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
Participant's Responses
Principally yes, though I'm not sure what compromise is possible between not including such images and including them. It's not like this is an argument about subjective phrasing in which you can realistically reach a middle-ground, because you can't "half-include" an image. Sarrotrkux (talk) 15:58, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
I believe that the original comment on the talk page, which includes a concern that the inclusion of the images "are a serious issue that should not be left for such a limited amount of users to decide " could be best resolved along the lines of an RfC, since this appears to be looking for additional users to weigh in on the issue at hand. I have therefore, in line with the recommendation given by Nightenbelle, created an RfC on the talk page related to the inclusion of the contested images. Mikehawk10 (talk) 23:15, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michael Sayman
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by
Shaun Sm on 20:32, 30 January 2021 (UTC).
Michael Sayman
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
.eco
– Closed as failed. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by
Davidwr on 01:33, 5 February 2021 (UTC).
Closed discussion
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- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
From where I see it, the dispute is whether the topic of the page .eco has been/is/should be about the gTLD known as ".eco" or whether it has been/is/should be about more, including the trademarked term .ECO, the company .ECO LLC, and related items. I cannot speak for other parties as to how they would define the dispute.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Talk:.eco - multiple threads starting in January 2021. I recommend any volunteer read the entire page at least twice. JWatTheDotECO and me, Davidwr, are the primary editors in dispute. The others are listed because they have tried to help resolve the dispute. Not listed are TheDotECO (talk · contribs), who edited the actual page on November 12, 2020 and the talk page on 28 January 2021, and Jacobmalthouse (talk · contribs) (retired), whose edits are contributing to the dispute.
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?
- Make sure we are "on the same page" with respect to the dispute.
- Provide a neutral assessment as to what the purpose of the page has been in the past, before the first known edits by a
now-gone COI editor on 15 August 2012 and between the time he started editing and the time a COI editor with a completely different conflict-of-interest started editing on 12 November 2020.
- Provide a neutral assessment of the purpose of other articles about other recent Generic top-level domains.
Summary of dispute by JWatTheDotECO
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Dyork
I joined the Talk:.eco discussion after seeing the request from Davidwr on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Internet for more editors to assist. This .eco article is one of the many articles linked from List_of_Internet_top-level_domains about the current state of ICANN-delegated top-level domains. Another editor wants the page to be about his/her/their company and trademark. We have discussed this at length on Talk:.eco. We have tried to work with the other editor, in explaining how Wikipedia articles work. We have also explained WP:COI and how this editor should not be editing pages with which they have COI. In an effort to achieve a NPOV article, Davidwr created a very basic, bare-bones article as a starting point. As Talk:.eco shows, we have tried to work with the other editor and address his/her/their issues. The editor continues to revert the page to their promotional version, including getting into a 3RR situation today, despite our repeated warnings. We now need additional help to arrive at a NPOV article and end the edit warring. Thank you for your consideration about getting involved.
Summary of dispute by MB
I am completely disconnected from the subject matter and only became involved when I started removing WP:LINKSPAM and doing other MOS-type fixes. It quickly became obvious (see their edit summaries) that JWat had a major COI and should not even be editing this article. All attempts to explain this on the TP have been ignored and they have repeatedly restored their version of the article in the interest of dealing with a "national emergency (Climate Change)" and complaining that this article is "causing confusion with the public and harm to my company". JWat refuses to heed WP policies and engage in productive dialog on the TP. I do support expansion of the article with a History section rather that putting related info in other stubby articles. But nothing productive along those lines has happened due to refusal of JWat to follow policy. MB 02:43, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Cabayi
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
As I read events, a number of businesses bid for the right to manage the .eco gTLD. PLANET.ECO, LLC registered a trademark [1] but didn't win the contract, which went to BIG ROOM INC.[2][3]
Does the wiki have an article for a trademark that has no significant presence? I can't think of one. Does the wiki have articles on gTLDs? Emphatically, yes. The gTLD is clearly the primary topic, and that aligns with Big Room's business. Planet.eco just owns some pictures which wouldn't pass Commons:Threshold of originality.
The connected editor tags were placed by Davidwr (1) & me (2). The three connected editors - JWatTheDotECO, TheDotECO & Jacobmalthouse (who has emerged from retirement) - are guilty of UPE & are fair game for indef blocking. Cabayi (talk) 11:50, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
.eco discussion
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
- Volunteer Note - I haven't finished reading the statements the first time. However, I can see that there is an incomplete disclosure of conflict of interest, and that all editors having any conflict of interest must declare who they are affiliated with and what the nature of their affiliation is. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:59, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
So this is Jean William and or Moses Boone of planet.eco fame. They are level 18 trolls with bastard swords of disinformation +3. They have been banned from ICANN Wiki for trashing our .eco page there. See: https://icannwiki.org/index.php?title=.eco&action=history. The discussion about the IANA record is correct (https://www.iana.org/domains/root/db/eco.html). Just because you name your house 'Buckingham Palace' doesn't give you the right to edit that wikipedia page claiming you own "The" Buckingham Palace. That's exactly what is happening here. The only entity on the planet that has the right to allocate top-level domains is IANA. IANA makes changes to the root zone based on decisions taken at ICANN. ICANN has awarded the registry agreement for .eco to Big Room Inc, and IANA has accordingly updated the root zone to reflect this. ICANN affords mechanisms for parties to dispute its decisions, including an independent review process, in its bylaws. There are no active accountability mechanisms pertaining to .eco. It is therefore not in dispute: https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/mechanisms-2014-03-20-en. I'm fine with Jean and Moses having a separate page about their trademark or talking about their failed bid, but the reality is they have no association whatsoever with the actual .eco top-level domain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacobmalthouse (talk • contribs) 04:35, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
First statement by moderator (.eco)
The statement by Jacobmalthouse is consistent with the initial statement by User:Davidwr and other neutral editors. It appears that this is a case of cybersquatting in Wikipedia, in which case this is a conduct dispute, and this content dispute will be closed, and the filing party will be advised to open a case at WP:AN for a possible referral to the Legal office of the WMF. However, I am awaiting a statement and a disclosure by User:JWatTheDotECO. All editors may make one more concise statement. Please read the ground rules. Comment on content, not contributors. If no response is received from JWatTheDotECO (or if the response is inconclusive, or is consistent with what has been said by other editors), this case will be closed in 24 hours as cybersquatting.
Robert McClenon (talk) 13:25, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- It appears that JWatTheDotECO may be editing for Planet ECO, who may have acquired a US trademark on .ECO (distinguished from .eco by case) and may now be acting as a trademark troll. A statement and a disclosure are being awaited. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:51, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
First statements by editors (.eco)
@Robert McClenon and Lourdes: JWatTheDotECO was blocked by Lourdes for 72 hours. I recommend that his block be modified so that he can edit on dispute-resolution pages such as this one and editor-dispute-resolution pages without waiting for his block to expire. This will allow the disputes to be resolved quicker. I think this can be done technically by replacing his block with expire-at-the-original-expiration-time "page blocks" that block article, article talk, file, file talk, and user talk namespaces (assuming the latter will still let him edit his own talk page, otherwise don't block user talk).
It's a bit premature to say this, but "reading the tea leaves" I see the long-term solution being an indef page block for all COI editors who have edited the page after being reminded not to, with the others given a formal, neutral notice on their talk page that they should not edit the article except for WP:Minor edits and edits needed to bring the page back into policy compliance (e.g. reverting COPYVIO or BLP violations). For now, only one of the 3 editors named as PAID editors on the article's talk page fall into the "indef page-block now" category. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 15:46, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
Second statement by moderator (.eco)
I see no need to request that the block on JWatTheDotECO be lifted, at least not to allow dispute resolution here. This noticeboard is for resolving content disputes, and does not address conduct, and is not a venue to discuss blocks, indefinite or otherwise. JWatTheDotECO had already been warned repeatedly to stop edit-warring, and continued edit-warring rather than discussing. The block of JWatTheDotECO and the content and conduct dispute should be discussed at WP:AN.
I am leaving this case open briefly only for statements. The forum for resolution of the dispute is WP:AN. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:18, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
Second statements by editors (.eco)
- I have nothing substantial to add, beyond thanking all of the other editors who have now become involved. This was my first time being involved with an editor who would not enter into discussions and I was not clear how this process worked. I have learned a good amount. My only note would be that while Davidwr created a "bare-bones" article in an attempt get to a NPOV article that all could agree to, the article should probably go back to (or have content copied from) the version from 28 January, also edited by Davidwr, as that article is more consistent with the other gTLD articles in terms of text and infobox content. Thank you again to all who have become involved. - Dyork (talk) 16:27, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- That revision, Special:Permalink/1003223167, looks good except for the "names can be registered at go.eco" spam external link. Cabayi (talk) 17:48, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
Back-and-forth discussion (.eco)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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List of wars and anthropogenic disasters by death toll
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by
Danielbr11 on 19:42, 5 February 2021 (UTC).