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RealClear media
Moved from WP:RS/P
I'm wondering about the status of RealClear media, IOW RealClearPolitics (RCP) and RealClearInvestigations (a redirect to RCP). My initial impression is that they are aggregators, but also with own, very biased, content. All I find is this thread opened by User:JzG in November 2019:
Valjean (talk) 17:00, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
- I just noticed this use at our conspiracy theory article Russia investigation origins counter-narrative:
- Here we have a combination of types of sources. All content at Wikipedia (other than WP:ABOUTSELF) must come from RS, even to document the most ludicrous pseudoscience, conspiracy theories, etc. If something is not mentioned in RS, it does not have the due weight to be mentioned here. Period. That makes this use of RCP, if it is deemed unreliable, very dubious. The NYTimes and Salon should be enough. -- Valjean (talk) 17:10, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
Definitely Unreliable. Doesn't clearly mark the difference between opinion and news content on the columns it publishes, and the rest is just aggregation (including a number of questionable sources like the Washington Examiner). For instance, "Donald the Dragon Slayer"[1] today is labeled as "Commentary" and not listed in its "Editorials" section. IHateAccounts (talk) 18:43, 14 December 2020 (UTC)— IHateAccounts (talk • contribs) has been blocked as a confirmed sock puppet of SkepticAnonymous (talk • contribs). jp×g 04:59, 16 February 2021 (UTC)- What's wrong with labeling an opinion piece as "Commentary"? Commentary literally means "expression of opinion". feminist (talk) 13:50, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- Nothing, I guess. That piece also clearly introduces the author as "a columnist for RealClearPolitics". For example The Guardian (at least the British one) is considered generally reliable, but some times I have to squint if I want to quickly figure out whether something is labelled as opinion. Random example, this is in "News" section and more specifically in "Business" section, though below the article it is labelled as "Coronavirus / comment". If one wants to know more about the author, they would have to link the author's name to read a profile page where the author is described as "a columnist, author and small business owner". Politrukki (talk) 17:56, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
- What's wrong with labeling an opinion piece as "Commentary"? Commentary literally means "expression of opinion". feminist (talk) 13:50, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- If we're going to discuss RC's reliability, it should be done at WP:RSN rather than here unless there have been additional threads on the matter already. -- Calidum 19:28, 14 December 2020 (UTC)
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- Generally Reliable--RCP has a very strong editorial board, with many award-winning journalists and writers: [2], and the site has a rigours fact-checking process: [3]. They are most well-known for their robust polling, which is published in numerous high-quality sources: The Guardian, Reuters, CNBC, The Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal. Likewise, Real Clear Investigations also seems to be referenced by reliable sources such as The Washington Post and NPR. RCP & RCI aggregates from different sources, though they do seem to have their own columnists. News vs. opinion is always clearly marked. Dr.Swag Lord, Ph.d (talk) 03:05, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- While it's an interesting offering, the RCP Fact Check Review is a review of fact checks done by other organisations. The existence of this review doesn't add a lot of credibility to their own content. — Charles Stewart (talk) 14:32, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- Judge by WP:RSOPINION. RCP is mainly known as an American conservative-leaning news and poll aggregator. It is mainly used on Wikipedia for its election predictions, the same way we use the Daily Kos (RSP entry) for its election predictions despite its unreliability. It also sees some use for its opinion pieces, which is usually appropriate depending on the identity of the opinion piece's author. Overall I don't think RCP publishes much straight news, if at all, so I would treat it as similar to Reason (RSP entry), The Spectator (RSP entry) or The Weekly Standard (RSP entry). feminist (talk) 13:38, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- As for this specific page, it appears to simply include transcripts of a video. Authenticity is not in doubt when you can actually listen to the video. But why not just cite Fox News directly? feminist (talk) 13:41, 16 December 2020 (UTC)
- Unreliable - This is primarily an opinion site and partisan aggregator, not a reliable news source. It cannot reasonably be considered a RS. Go4thProsper (talk) 03:28, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
- Unreliable - Original material is not factually reliable, and aggregated material may not be accurately attributed. The Wall Street Journal has reported that RealClearPolitics for two years has been a significant source of links to Russia Today stories, and the provenance of the RT headlines was obscured. While much of the aggregated material may be reliable, it should be cited to the reliable source, not to RealClear. John M Baker (talk) 00:12, 18 December 2020 (UTC)
- Reliable They have a gatekeeping process demonstrated by multiple contributors organized in an editorial hierarchy; a physical presence by which they can be held liable for libel; and RS consider them reliable as evidenced by the fact their original reporting has been sourced by Reuters [4], Government Executive [5], Albuquerque Journal [6], CBS News [7], TIME [8], CNN [9] etc., etc. Both the current executive editor and the current White House correspondent are separate recipients [10], [11] of the Aldo Beckman Award for Journalistic Excellence from the White House Correspondents Association which is pretty much the Oscar for White House coverage and its recipient is elected by WHCA member journalists. If RC is not reliable, we need to rethink our standards of reliability.
That said, stories that are simply aggregated by RCP are not implicitly reliable, opinion / commentary columns are not reliable for anything other than the opinion of the writer per WP:RSOPINION, and extraordinary claims should be credited to the source and not presented in WP's voice regardless of the reliability of the source (at least when reported only by a single source). Chetsford (talk) 04:44, 20 December 2020 (UTC) - Unreliable. RealClear Media hosted (and may still host) a secret Facebook page promoting far-right memes and extremist conspiracy theories. This family of websites is mainly opinion pieces and aggregation of pieces published elsewhere. As for their sites that claim to do original reporting, their "RealClearInvestigations" site is backed by right-wing foundations and published an article supposedly revealing the identity of a protected whistleblower—something that reputable/mainstream news organizations chose not to do, because it would endanger the whistleblower and violate anti-retaliation principles. And as the Wall Street Journal reported in Oct. 2020, the aggregator has consistently funneled readers to Russian propaganda, while obscuring the source from browsing readers. All of this points to clear unreliability. Neutralitytalk 19:33, 20 December 2020 (UTC)
- The WSJ story you site describes RealClear as "mainstream" and their poll average as "famous." Furthermore, I am unaware of any requirement that an RS refrain from publishing the identity of a whistleblower. For comparison, is the NYT unreliable because they blew a CIA program to catch terrorists via their finances [12]? Obviously that put lives at risk. Meanwhile, the NYT, which routinely advocates for restrictions on oil drilling in the USA, is owned in considerable part by Carlos Slim, who obviously benefits from such restrictions. In sum, you are condemning RealClear for things we appear to accept from other sources. Adoring nanny (talk) 03:37, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
- Unreliable for anything except perhaps its attributed polling averages (which seems to be the only thing it is really well-known for, looking over sources and usage, and which is probably better cited to a WP:SECONDARY source anyway.) Outside of that it is largely noteworthy as an aggregator; and there's no reason we would cite them rather than the sources they aggregate. For the (largely opinion) original stuff they do post, there seems to be little distinction between opinion and fact. More importantly, they have in particular been publishing false material about the 2020 election and surrounding events recently, which is a definite strike against their reliability. Generally speaking I don't think it makes sense to use a handful of passing mentions as an argument for WP:USEBYOTHERS when the NYT just wrote an entire in-depth teardown essentially saying how unreliable it has become. EDIT: I would say that per the NYT source it is particularly unreliable after 2017 because of this:
Interviews with current and former Real Clear staff members, along with a review of its coverage and tax filings, point to a shift to the right within the organization in late 2017, when the bulk of its journalists who were responsible for straight-news reporting on Capitol Hill, the White House and national politics were suddenly laid off.
The shift to the right would be fine on its own, but firing their reporting team isn't. And that led to the other issues the article identifies - inaccurate coverage of the 2020 election, unsubstantiated or false stories, stories that raise ethical concerns, and so on. None of this sounds like the write-up of a source we could use as an WP:RS; it appears they gutted their news team sometime in 2017 and switched to basically pumping out spin, with increasing disregard for fact-checking or accuracy. --Aquillion (talk) 10:48, 21 December 2020 (UTC) - Unreliable for the reasons explained by John M Baker, Neutrality, and Aquillion. They do seem to be known for polling averages more than anything else, which also leads to a WP:DUE concern; how often is a poll average, of which there are many, actually worth writing about? In that case, we'd be turning to secondary sources anyway, as Aquillion suggested. Less-than-stellar publications are sometimes the ones to "break" a story (because it was leaked to them, or because they were listening to the police scanner, or whatever). When more solid reporting confirms the story and mentions where it first appeared, that doesn't necessarily count in favor of the marginal publication's reliability for our purposes. XOR'easter (talk) 01:51, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- Exactly this. The National Enquirer broke the John Edwards extramarital affair, but that doesn't mean the Enquirer is suddenly reliable either, all it means is a stopped clock happened to briefly coincide with the time of day. IHateAccounts (talk) 15:57, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- How true. I subscribe to and follow over 4,000 journalists and media sources of all types, including the use of many Google Alerts, so I see what is written by the most unreliable of sources. For example, The Daily Caller often has "news" details that is cutting edge (IOW on the wrong side of the knife...
), but those details are not yet found elsewhere, so I do not use TDC as a source or even mention those details. I wait until RS pick up the story. TDC will usually frame these interesting details in a misleading story that misleads its readers, and we shouldn't send readers to such trash. When the details appear in RS, the setting is more neutral and factual, and we can then use those sources as documentation of those interesting details. They now have the needed due weight and proper sourcing. So be patient and wait for RS to cover such stuff. -- Valjean (talk) 16:21, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
- Reliable per User:Chetsford. Adoring nanny (talk) 00:42, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
- Unreliable, completely, given their track record of demonstrably false claims, fringe opinion pieces and the like. One cannot even call it "reporting" anymore, given the mass layoffs of actual journalists in 2017. Zaathras (talk) 01:12, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
- Comment We have a lot of people declaring "not factually reliable" as an undemonstrated assertion. The standards for RS are the same as our general standards; if RS consider them reliable, they are reliable. We have demonstrated that RS consider RC reliable by the fact that their original reporting is widely, and regularly cited by RS. We have demonstrated that RS consider RC reliable by the fact that their journalists have received some of the most significant awards given by and from the journalistic craft. Unless we have RS widely declaring RC to be unreliable, our individual assessments of RC is irrelevant. So far only one source has been offered which sort-of hints at that; we don't blacklist an entire media outlet because of one false positive - otherwise we'd be non-RS'ing the New York Times over the Caliphate podcast scandal that just broke or Rolling Stone for A Rape on Campus. All other arguments appear to rely on personal analysis. Content analysis is research and personal content analysis is OR. A policy-based argument, supported by sources, has been offered demonstrating reliability. The same has not been offered demonstrating unreliability. Chetsford (talk) 05:54, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
- Is this really the standard? Then the assessment should also take into account reporting from the New York Times, which writes that, during the Trump administration, “Real Clear became one of the most prominent platforms for elevating unverified and reckless stories about the president’s political opponents,” and that it ran “stories that most other news outlets, including some that lean conservative, would not touch because the details were unsubstantiated or publication of them would raise ethical concerns.” John M Baker (talk) 04:47, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, we definitely should take that into account. But taking a report about a source into account is different than giving that report veto power. As I said, above, the ability to find one or two instances of RS questioning a source should not be treated as some gotcha! reason to deprecate a source. If that were all it took, we would have no sources left. Here [13], WIRED reports "News organizations, including The New York Times, have reported the story without trying to get to the bottom of it, or even finding out basic information such as where or when the alleged party took place."; here [14] Rolling Stone is found liable for a demonstrably fake story; here [15] The Intercept writes that the Washington Post published a story about hacking that is "demonstrably false" . In each of these cases, we have far more evidence of RS considering the NYT, Rolling Stone, and WaPo reliable than unreliable. Similarly, as demonstrated in my !vote, the same applies to RCP. Chetsford (talk) 14:45, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
- But the New York Times article is not comparable to the claims that the New York Times, Rolling Stone, and Washington Post published individual false stories (not that I think that the linked critiques of the NY Times and the Post are particularly compelling). Rather, the Times has provided an overall assessment of RCP's current reliability, and it has done so in terms that are utterly inconsistent with finding a source to be reliable. That should weigh far more heavily than individual examples where an established reliable source chose to refer to RCP uncritically. Nor do I think that the test of reliability should be the treatment given by reliable sources. If that were the case, we would certainly have to reinstate the Daily Mail, which just in the past few days has been cited by The Independent (Dec. 31, 2020), The Times (London) (Dec. 29, 2020), The Times (London) (Dec. 29, 2020, again), The Sunday Telegraph (Dec. 27, 2020), and the Kansas City Star (Dec. 24, 2020), among others (all examples from NewsBank). The test should be whether a source is in fact reliable, based on reported facts, and not on whether media sources sometimes choose to use it without further examination. John M Baker (talk) 21:30, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
- When sources considered reliable mention and provide an analysis of less reliable sources it's often useful to WP to support article content rather than using unreliable sources, but it doesn't mean that we should by extension consider those reliable (which is precisely why an independent interpretation of their claims is useful)... —PaleoNeonate – 00:27, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
- But the New York Times article is not comparable to the claims that the New York Times, Rolling Stone, and Washington Post published individual false stories (not that I think that the linked critiques of the NY Times and the Post are particularly compelling). Rather, the Times has provided an overall assessment of RCP's current reliability, and it has done so in terms that are utterly inconsistent with finding a source to be reliable. That should weigh far more heavily than individual examples where an established reliable source chose to refer to RCP uncritically. Nor do I think that the test of reliability should be the treatment given by reliable sources. If that were the case, we would certainly have to reinstate the Daily Mail, which just in the past few days has been cited by The Independent (Dec. 31, 2020), The Times (London) (Dec. 29, 2020), The Times (London) (Dec. 29, 2020, again), The Sunday Telegraph (Dec. 27, 2020), and the Kansas City Star (Dec. 24, 2020), among others (all examples from NewsBank). The test should be whether a source is in fact reliable, based on reported facts, and not on whether media sources sometimes choose to use it without further examination. John M Baker (talk) 21:30, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, we definitely should take that into account. But taking a report about a source into account is different than giving that report veto power. As I said, above, the ability to find one or two instances of RS questioning a source should not be treated as some gotcha! reason to deprecate a source. If that were all it took, we would have no sources left. Here [13], WIRED reports "News organizations, including The New York Times, have reported the story without trying to get to the bottom of it, or even finding out basic information such as where or when the alleged party took place."; here [14] Rolling Stone is found liable for a demonstrably fake story; here [15] The Intercept writes that the Washington Post published a story about hacking that is "demonstrably false" . In each of these cases, we have far more evidence of RS considering the NYT, Rolling Stone, and WaPo reliable than unreliable. Similarly, as demonstrated in my !vote, the same applies to RCP. Chetsford (talk) 14:45, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
- Is this really the standard? Then the assessment should also take into account reporting from the New York Times, which writes that, during the Trump administration, “Real Clear became one of the most prominent platforms for elevating unverified and reckless stories about the president’s political opponents,” and that it ran “stories that most other news outlets, including some that lean conservative, would not touch because the details were unsubstantiated or publication of them would raise ethical concerns.” John M Baker (talk) 04:47, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
- Generally discourage - especially if editors must determine the usable material from the obvious propaganda themselves. —PaleoNeonate – 00:32, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
- Reliable per User:Chetsford with the RSOPINION restrictions feminist noted. I think I would consider much of their material analysis but absent a source directly contradicting them I would say it is usable in that capacity. Springee (talk) 12:27, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- It's aggregation and partisan opinion content, so should be treated accordingly. So if we're talking about their original content then no, of course we shouldn't use it for statements of fact in Wikipedia's voice (i.e. unreliable), but there may be uses for attributed opinions of certain authors in exceptional cases (as usual, RSOPINION does not mean that every/any opinion carries WP:WEIGHT on its own, but it's possible there are uses for them). — Rhododendrites talk \\ 05:44, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
- Reliable. There's been far too much of this fad for wholesale banning of sources via deprecation—it has the stench of political bias, smacks of censorship, and suggests editors are no longer able to judge reliability on a case-by-case basis. Deprecation is used to exclude purely factual, documented information. (Example: the NY Post and Daily Mail were the only two sources who saw fit to report details of the sexual assault charges against Jacob Blake, and the only ones linking to the official police report—claims they're not "RS" was used to censor factual information.) These deprecation debates are little more than referenda asking: "Would you personally prefer if the source couldn't be used?" Saying RCP is "unreliable" because it accurately identified a "whistleblower" or linked to Russian articles is absurd. As to the claim that the same company had a "secret Facebook group sharing right-wing memes" is disqualifying, see the professor's quote about WSJ/Fox—then ask if false claims made by Amazon mean Bezos' WaPo should be deprecated. Broadly agree with User:Chetsford on this, especially that RCP has not been shown to publish false information, let alone routinely. Additionally, Lee Smith and others have done some very solid original investigative reporting for RCP. Elle Kpyros (talk) 18:43, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- Conspiracy theories about "something something conservatives are being silenced" aren't a rational argument. "NY Post and Daily Mail were the only two sources who saw fit to report details of the sexual assault charges against Jacob Blake" is pure lying hooey: it was fact-checked by reputable news agencies (such as USA Today [16] and Reuters[17]) that contradicted the lies the Daily Fail and NY Post were putting out. IHateAccounts (talk) 18:51, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- Absolutely not. RealClearPolitics is described by reliable sources as "one of the most prominent platforms for elevating unverified and reckless stories about (Trump's) political opponents". Specifically, RCP aggressively promoted the "stolen election" falsehood that fueled a failed attempt to overthrow the US government a week or so ago. So that's a hard no from me.
It appears that the "serious news" staff of RCP was laid off en masse in 2017, and replaced by Republican political operatives ([18]). Separately, of course, RCP has also published defamatory falsehoods (misidentifying the author of a high-profile anonymous op-ed), recycled and laundered Russian propaganda, outed a legally protected whistleblower, and so on—all in service of partisan ends, and all detailed here and elsewhere. Defending this source as reliable, in light of all this evidence to the contrary, is quite a stretch. Arguably, one could list it as "potentially reliable before 2017, unreliable afterwards", based on the staff turnover and shift in tone and focus.
In any case, using a source known to publish defamatory falsehoods, reckless & unfounded partisan smears, election-related falsehoods, and foreign propaganda—as RCP is documented to do—is fundamentally a behavioral and competence issue. MastCell Talk 20:11, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- Reliable. Much of the website's content is labeled as opinion, and it is an aggregator, as many previous users have said. Many previous editors have focused on the opinion content on the site and its role as a poll aggregator, and these should be judged by WP:RSOPINION. It should be noted, however, that the site publishes original polling data, that have been widely cited by other sources we trust as reliable, including NPR. Mikehawk10 (talk) 04:06, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
Unreliable Just another partisan source. I think Wikipedia would be a better place without too partisan and opinion based sources. I absolutely don't think those who look at things from one side's perspective tend to have reputation for fact checking. Hence, I don't think it's a WP:RS.Magnus Dominus (talk) 15:02, 31 January 2021 (UTC)— Magnus Dominus (talk • contribs) is a confirmed sock puppet of Lordpermaximum (talk • contribs).- Unreliable, and trying for deprecation - the conspiracy theory pushing suggests they've left tawdry conceptions of "factual reality" behind. Unfortunately, "factual reality" is where Wikipedia does its best to live, and so we can't follow RCP to where they're going - David Gerard (talk) 22:06, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- Unreliable. This subject is an opinion aggregator, mostly using reprints of articles which appeared in right-leaning sources. The NYT article linked above by User:MastCell demonstrates that whatever "non-partisan" credibility they tried to hold onto was lost in the "sudden right turn" after Trump's election. These days they are just another source parroting "stolen election" lies. BusterD (talk) 23:27, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- Reliable - We can use WP:BIASEDSOURCES, as long as they are used in a neutral way or with attribution. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:39, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Unreliable - not a matter of bias one way or the other, it's a matter of uncritically reporting falsehoods. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:00, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Reliable - as reliable in their political opinions as left-leaning sources like WaPo. We don't consider a source unreliable because we don't agree with their politics. Biased sources are acceptable. But like all online news sources in today's clickbait environment, we should exercise caution and use common sense. Atsme 💬 📧 00:10, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Unreliable now per MastCell et al, but I would probably say that pre-2017 content might be OK. Black Kite (talk) 00:26, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Reliable for now. The source has published a few questionable stories relating to the 2020 elections, but its news offerings are on the whole reliable; it should be treated as a mainstream news source. This may change in the future if its bias gets more extreme and starts causing the facts to get distorted.Jancarcu (talk) 20:38, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
RfC: China Daily
Link: [19]
Should the source be deprecated? Firestar464 (talk)
MBFC Rating: [20]
02:57, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- Media Bias Fact Check is not a reliable source and should not be invoked in talk page discussions, it says pretty much nothing of value about the quality of a source. That said I do think a RfC on China Daily is warranted. chinadaily.com.cn
is currently cited in 5,762 articles. Hemiauchenia (talk) 03:04, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- I'll add the usual options. Which of the following best describes the reliability of China Daily?
- Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting
- Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
- Option 3: Generally unreliable for factual reporting
- Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated as in the 2017 RfC of the Daily Mail
- --Sunrise (talk) 19:03, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- I'll add the usual options. Which of the following best describes the reliability of China Daily?
Survey (China Daily)
Deprecate - My first impression on looking at it is that it's probably in the same category as RT (TV network) aka "Russia Today" which is already deprecated? Being owned by the "Propaganda Department" of the Chinese government and all... IHateAccounts (talk) 03:12, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- I don't think we should be deprecating sources so lightly based on a first impression. --MarioGom (talk) 19:06, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
@MarioGom: on detailed further review it is owned, operated controlled, and so forth by the same entity that owns and controls China Global Television Network, which is already deprecated for being a propaganda outlet. IHateAccounts (talk) 20:46, 6 January 2021 (UTC)- Note to closer: this block is getting pushback, and not just from User:IHateAccounts. Unclear where it will end up. Adoring nanny (talk) 23:34, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- I don't think we should be deprecating sources so lightly based on a first impression. --MarioGom (talk) 19:06, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose Deprecation China Daily being owned by the CCP is no more a stopper for me than NBC being owned by Comcast. We should disabuse ourselves of the notion that state-owned media in non-western states is somehow inherently less reliable than state- or corporate-owned media in the west (to clarify, that's a general observation I've made of others - not you, and I don't think you're doing that here). Indeed, Bennett's indexing theory - certainly the most influential theory in the last 30 years in media studies - suggests that media in the west are already more or less state-controlled on matters of importance, even if they're not state-owned, the different perception of independence only due to their need to calibrate reporting to the multiple control levers present in multi-party states. I believe China Daily is generally reliable for all but reporting on the CCP and adjacent institutions where its use should be limited to WP:SELFSOURCE. Though, as with all sources, WP:DUE should be considered in every use. I draw this conclusion as follows:
- -Media Bias Fact Check is unambiguously unreliable. For the purposes of RSN, I always assume it simply doesn't exist.
- -The consensus of scholarship indicates that media in China can, and is, held judicially liable for defamation (e.g. this study by Benjamin L. Liebman[21], among others) and this includes state-controlled media.
- -The China Daily has a gatfekeeping process.
- -The China Daily is sourced to RS which is, ultimately, the only standard we - as Wikipedians - can apply. Provided this is met we can't deprecate a source because we're uncomfortable with the governance or ownership structure. In just the last year its original reporting has been sourced (with attribution, but absent frightening caveats about the CCP owning it) by Science Magazine [22], the BBC [23], Barron's [24], Washington Post [25], NPR [26], and others. USA Today even used it as a corroborating source for one of their fact-checks [27]. If we deprecate China Daily while accepting sources that routinely source the China Daily for their content we're saying we know more about the China Daily than any RS. And if we know more than RS, there's no real reason to keep the WP:OR policy.
- Chetsford (talk) 03:27, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- While I haven’t evaluated this particular source in detail, the above comment contains a number of arguments that are largely invalid or irrelevant. (I will ignore the suggestion that many of our usual RS are effectively state-controlled, as something that shouldn’t require refutation.) Starting with the bullet points, it's true that MBFC is unreliable and should not be considered. However:
- Defamation claims being permitted by a country’s laws is a minimal standard, not an argument in favor of reliability. Furthermore, the article cited is from 2006, before the more recent increases in state control. And even at the time, as acknowledged in the same article, defamation claims were also used as tools of media control.
- Having a gatekeeping process is likewise a minimal requirement. Presumably, one of the concerns in this case includes what type of reporting that gatekeeping process will allow.
- Simply being cited by RS does not make a source reliable. Instead, we want the source to be discussed in RS and to evaluate the contents of those discussions. The Daily Mail is also sometimes cited in RS; this is a common situation in which information from an unreliable source may become usable on Wikipedia because of a better source applying its own editorial processes to the information in question.
- Additionally, much of the comment is about Chinese sources in general. While this can certainly inform the evaluation, any such information will be overridden by information about the specific source in question. Checking the WP article shows e.g. China Daily#Editorial control and China Daily#Disinformation allegations, which are issues that would need to be addressed.
- It's true that state ownership doesn't inherently make a source unreliable, but it’s still a relevant consideration in countries that use the press for propaganda. (I think that some editors, when they mention state ownership, are using it as a shorthand for this type of argument.) The reason that ownership structure can be overlooked in some cases is not because the owners are unbiased, but because they are more likely to have credible policies about independence in reporting. This is not a “west/east” distinction, or any other system that tries to divide people by nation or culture - it’s a result of applying sourcing guidelines that ignore such things. Furthermore, introducing such distinctions (which are largely arbitrary to begin with) only serves to frame the discussion in terms of geopolitics and makes it harder to evaluate the issue neutrally. Sunrise (talk) 18:59, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- @Chetsford: just FYI Liebman appears to be saying the exact opposite of what you say he says. Also making that argument in this explicit context ignores the fact that the CCP is above regular Chinese law, it literally doesn't apply to them as party is above state unlike in those multiparty systems (your argument appears to conflate state owned and party owned media). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:44, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- To say that China Daily should be considered "generally reliable for all but reporting on the CCP and adjacent institutions" leaves very little for it to report on, given the CCP's influence over every aspect of China's economy, culture and society. It should be good only for its births and obituaries. ScrupulousScribe (talk) 14:33, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- While I haven’t evaluated this particular source in detail, the above comment contains a number of arguments that are largely invalid or irrelevant. (I will ignore the suggestion that many of our usual RS are effectively state-controlled, as something that shouldn’t require refutation.) Starting with the bullet points, it's true that MBFC is unreliable and should not be considered. However:
- I would say it's generally reliable for non-political stuff (like the manhole story that BBC reported based on a China Daily story) and generally unreliable for everything related to politics, broadly defined (see China_Daily#Controversy). Alaexis¿question? 09:47, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose deprecation. First, context matters and no context is discussed here, not even one example. Second, being rated as left-biased (or right-biased) by some random organization is irrelevant to deprecation discussions. Reliable sources are not required to be unbiased. And finally, as much as ownership structure is now a thing for flagging content on Twitter or Facebook, that's not yet a Wikipedia policy. Ownership is part of what we look at when evaluating sources, but not the only thing at all. --MarioGom (talk) 19:14, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- I’m surprised it hasn’t been deprecated already given their explicit existence as a propaganda organ of the Chinese Communist Party and long history of disinformation peddling. We have explicit cases of them spreading disinformation which are covered on their page. They have no respect and little credibility within the traditional media, Reporters Without Borders has condemned them etc. I strongly support deprecation. Nothing I’ve seen suggests its usable outside of about self which I will add given the immense nature of the CCP thats actually a lot of contextually appropriate use. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:30, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose deprecation. It's a state-owned / operated / supported news service, in essence no different form the BBC or PBS. Non-political news is the product of professional reporters. Any story displaying overt political bias is stating the government's official party line — which is important to know. --Tenebrae (talk) 19:57, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- @Tenebrae: China Daily is owned by the Chinese Communist Party not the Chinese state, it is political party-owned not state-owned. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:02, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- I'm not sure there's a distinction between the Communist Party and the Chinese state. I'd be surprised if we wouldn't have considered the Communist Party's Pravda a useable source for insight into Soviet thinking during the Cold War. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:07, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- Then I don’t understand your point about them being in essence no different from the BBC or PBS which are entirely independent of the political parties in their respective states. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:11, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- I thought it was clear: In China's case, the Party is the government. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:23, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
@Tenebrae:, since you now agree "In China's case, the Party is the government", that makes this vastly different from the BBC or PBS, which are independent of political party in their countries. It's much more a propaganda rag with little factual reliability, with the best comparisons indeed being the factually deficient Pravda, or Russia Today, or 112 Ukraine (owned by Russian proxies), or Rodong Sinmun from North Korea. There are also precedents from Wikipedia regarding papers similar in ownership structure, if not political leaning, such as An Phoblacht, Anadolu Agency, The Electronic Intifada, HispanTV, or Press TV. See their entries at WP:RSP.It might be viewed as a source (as you proposed) for occasional insight into official talking points of the Chinese Communist Party, but I would never trust Pravda, or Rodong Sinmun, or China Global Television Network, or "China Daily" for facts. IHateAccounts (talk) 20:38, 6 January 2021 (UTC)- I agree with Tenebrae. Plus, we have literature that indicate the BBC tends to adopt framing in its reporting that mirrors that used by whatever party is in power at the time. (e.g. [28], etc.) We need actual evidence of unreliability, not merely expressions of our personal discomfort with the ownership group. "They're communists" is not a policy-based argument to deprecate a source. Chetsford (talk) 23:13, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- Then I don’t understand your argument about it being in essence no different from the BBC or PBS, if you’re arguing that the entire relationship between party and state is radically different than in a multiparty state like the US or UK then what do you mean by "in essence no different” Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:59, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- I thought it was clear: In China's case, the Party is the government. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:23, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- Then I don’t understand your point about them being in essence no different from the BBC or PBS which are entirely independent of the political parties in their respective states. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:11, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- I'm not sure there's a distinction between the Communist Party and the Chinese state. I'd be surprised if we wouldn't have considered the Communist Party's Pravda a useable source for insight into Soviet thinking during the Cold War. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:07, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- @Tenebrae: China Daily is owned by the Chinese Communist Party not the Chinese state, it is political party-owned not state-owned. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:02, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- Option 1 and Oppose Deprecation: the arguments mentioned by Chetsford, MarioGom and Tenebrae are persuasive. Appropriate attribution should be made for statements related to China Daily's area of bias. Also, this RFC hasn’t been set up in our required neutral format. “Deprecate China Daily” isn’t a suitable heading for an RfC and the introduction is supposed to be neutral. Burrobert (talk) 20:29, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- Deprecate. The fact that they are owned by the publicity department of the Chinese Communist Party is reason enough. Just as we treat (say) NewsBusters and CNS News together, because both are owned by the Media Research Center, so it should be with China Daily and the deprecated Global Times. For those who don't think that is sufficient reason, please consider China_Daily#Disinformation_allegations. To take one recent example, China Daily promoted tweets saying that the Hong Kong demonstrators were sponsored by Western interests. It also claimed that they were planning terrorist attacks on September 11, 2019.[29][30]. Adoring nanny (talk) 23:52, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose Deprecation, however I would go with option 2 or 3, depending on the topic. Chinese state media is OK to cite as a WP:RS for non-controversial mainland news (such as China opening whatever high-speed train line or something like that), but for controversial topics such as Taiwan and the South China Sea, they should only be used with attribution to get the PRC's official opinion on such subjects. Félix An (talk) 23:53, 6 January 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose deprecation and treat as we treat other semi-official or official media: somewhere in between options 1 and 2, with good judgement expected from editors as usual. Thanks to Chetsford especially for their careful consideration and comments. -Darouet (talk) 21:02, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- {u|Darouet} can you give examples of official state media (in particular in single-party non-democratic states) that we place between options 1 and 2? BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:39, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
- Option 4: Deprecate and put it in the same category as Global Times and CGTN/CCTV. In my opinion, Xinhua News Agency should also be deprecated. Brady (2015) wrote an excellent review[1] on those so-called "media" as part of Beijing's global propaganda campaign. Despite the subtle and stealthy nature of China's overseas influence operations, there are numerous reports by reliable sources and countries with press freedom regarding Chinese state-controled media including China Daily disseminating false or fabricated information. For example, [31] [32] [33] [34] [35]. It is truly unbelievable that some editors could turn a blind eye and still promote the false equivalence of state-controlled propaganda organs and private media with editorial independence and well-established fact-checking processes. Normchou 💬 22:03, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
References
- ^ Brady, Anne-Marie (October 2015). "Authoritarianism Goes Global (II): China's Foreign Propaganda Machine". Journal of Democracy. 26 (4): 51–59. doi:10.1353/jod.2015.0056. Retrieved 16 December 2020.
- Oppose Deprecation The fact that they have not failed a fact check speaks strongly in their favour, even if it is obviously the state outlet of the PRC. Certainly however, on topics where the PRC feels strongly about however, it should be used only as a last resort, or in order to back up an official position of the PRC. BrxBrx(talk)(please reply with {{SUBST:re|BrxBrx}}) 03:34, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3 or 4 I think it should be treated similar to CGTN where it should pretty much exclusively be used for statements made by the Chinese government but some other areas unrelated to Chinese interests seem to be okay. FlalfTalk 04:00, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose depreciation for the same reasons already pointed out by others. The discussion below is straying far away from WP:RS. Mottezen (talk) 06:19, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3 It should be treated as we treat other state-controlled media in authoritarian single-party states: reliable (typically with attribution) as a source on government/party statements (e.g. as a source for statements from state public health officials as in the most of the uses by other reliable sources cited by Chetsford above), possibly reliable for non-controversial facts (e.g. numbers of stolen manhole covers, as in another of Chestsford's examples), but generally unreliable for anything controversial in which the Chinese state has an interest. Nobody so far has put forward arguments for why it should be treated less cautiously than other such state-controlled media. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:39, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose deprecation per MarioGom. China Daily is reliable for various topics, though of course they won't be neutral on politics. —Granger (talk · contribs) 07:06, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose deprecation: I don't see any convincing arguments for deprecation above. China Daily is an important source for news from inside China. Deprecating it would worsen the already worrying systemic bias with regards to China, in which we increasingly rely on sources outside China that themselves often have ideological biases and questionable accuracy. A brief tangent to illustrate this:
- The Wall Street Journal published a news article about Chinese economic policy last month that severely mistranslated a statement by Chinese Vice Premier Liu He. The original description of his speech is as follows:
会议要求,国有企业要成为有核心竞争力的市场主体。国有企业首先必须发挥经济功能,创造市场价值。
- The WSJ characterized that passage as follows:
'State-owned enterprises,' he said, 'must become the competitive core of the market.'
- This has a very different meaning from what Liu He said in Chinese, and in context, it's almost a direct inversion of his meaning. This is how DeepL translates his statement into English:
The meeting called for state-owned enterprises to become core competitive market players. State-owned enterprises must first perform economic functions and create market value.
- The point of the statement is that state-owned enterprises must become more market-oriented - something that has typically been viewed as a pro-market policy. The WSJ's mistranslation reverses that, and turns it into a statement about how state-owned enterprises should dominate the market ("core competitive market players" turns into "the competitive core of the market").
- This mistranslation was pointed out by a reporter for Xinhua, Zichen Wang. The WSJ has still not issued a correction. The WSJ is considered a highly reliable source, and in most contexts it is, but like all sources, it has biases. Especially in the increasingly nationalist climate, those biases can impact accuracy in reporting about countries that are viewed as "adversaries" (in whatever country the newspaper is operating out of - the US, in the case of the WSJ). That's how we get the WSJ mistranslating a statement by a Chinese official and then failing to issue a correction.
- The Wall Street Journal published a news article about Chinese economic policy last month that severely mistranslated a statement by Chinese Vice Premier Liu He. The original description of his speech is as follows:
- It's important to continue using a mix of sources to cover China, including sources with a good record of factual accuracy from within China. -Thucydides411 (talk) 11:04, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
- Strongly disagreed. WP:SYSTEMICBIAS is an essay, which may only represent minority viewpoints within the community. Moreover, "systemic ABC" is usually poorly defined and unfalsifiable (see some elaboration here), and one should not invoke it when talking about specific instances of an issue, such as "the reliability of China Daily". If factual evidence still matters—which the editor above seemed to think so given that they listed an example of a purported mistranslation to illustrate their point—then the overwhelming evidence that the Chinese state-controlled media have been spreading false and fabricated information should actually support Option 4: Deprecate. Normchou 💬 02:54, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- It's not a "purported" mistranslation - it's a black-and-white example of a mistranslation. Anyone who reads both English and Chinese can compare the original Chinese text with the WSJ's English rendering.
- I raised this example because it illustrates an important point. All sources have biases, and those biases can affect accuracy. It's no secret that tensions between the US and China have escalated dramatically over the last few years, and that public opinion towards China in the US and a number of other allied countries has become extremely negative in a very short space of time. To think that this wouldn't affect American newspapers as well would be naive. Above, we have an example of a leading American newspaper, a solid RS, blatantly mistranslating a Chinese official, in a way that completely reverses the meaning of the official's statement. Who pointed out the mistranslation? A reporter for Chinese state media - a reporter who is likely much more familiar with the policy positions of Chinese officials than the typical WSJ reporter is. The WSJ has not yet issued a correction (it's had a month to do so), and indeed, correcting this mistranslation would probably require the WSJ to significantly revise its entire article (because the actual quote in Chinese contradicts the basic thesis of the WSJ article).
overwhelming evidence that the Chinese state-controlled media have been spreading false and fabricated information
: This is an extremely broad, very poorly supported statement. In most areas, for example, I think it's clear that Xinhua is highly reliable. Like any source, we should be aware of its biases. For the most part, it will not report on issues that reflect negatively on the Chinese government. However, it will also accurately report on many issues within China that American newspapers like the NY Times and WSJ will scarcely ever report on (and if they do, their reporting is often not particularly reliable or leaves out important context). Our articles on China will not become more reliable by systematically excluding all Chinese sources. I think editors are capable enough to understand the biases that Chinese state media have, and to use them appropriately. -Thucydides411 (talk) 11:00, 16 January 2021 (UTC)- Strongly disagreed. False equivalence and bothsidesism neither make one's argument more convincing, nor help with reducing bias.
All sources have biases
by no means implies that all biases from all sources—not to mention false and fabricated information from only certain sources—should be treated in the same way when it comes to their negative effects on the Wikipedia project. Thus far, Thucydides411, the editor above, has only used a single, isolated, purported case to illustrate their point. Yet they do not bother about it while turning a blind eye and throwing out some random cliche likeThis is an extremely broad, very poorly supported statement
when overwhelming evidence says otherwise: [36] [37] [38] [39] [40] [41] [42] [43] [44] [45] [46]. By the way, as a native speaker of several Chinese languages, I disagree with that Chinese state media journalist's view that the WSJ's translation is such a big deal;国有企业要成为有核心竞争力的市场主体
simply means SOEs should be the major/core player of the market—where many other players can also exist—with the additional requirement that such SOEs should have core/major competitive advantages. A basic understanding of economics—a quality that most of the readers of the WSJ should have—tells me that a "market", by definition, has more than one player, so the "core" is really just the "core player", because the qualifier "of the market" is already there. Regarding the specific structure of that market, it could be in the form of perfect competition, imperfect competition, monopolistic competition, oligopoly, etc. There is no indication in Liu He's speech that he is referring to a perfectly competitive market. Normchou 💬 22:04, 16 January 2021 (UTC); edited 22:30, 16 January 2021 (UTC); edited 23:18, 16 January 2021 (UTC); edited 01:54, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
国有企业要成为有核心竞争力的市场主体 simply means SOEs should be the major/core player of the market
: That's not what it means. It's absolutely clear in the Chinese original that "core" refers to "competitiveness". Just from the way the sentence is constructed, "core" cannot possibly refer to "market", and the phrase says nothing about SOEs becoming the "core player of the market". An unambiguous English translation would be, "SOEs must become market players with their own core competitiveness". The basic meaning here is that SOEs should be subject to market forces, rather than relying on subsidies. The very next sentence makes this even more explicit:国有企业首先必须发挥经济功能,创造市场价值
(DeepL gives, "State-owned enterprises must first perform economic functions and create market value", and I agree with DeepL's translation). The reason why this is more than just an innocuous translation error is that it makes it look like Liu He is supporting nearly the exact opposite policy - state support for SOEs. I gave this as just a recent example of inaccurate reporting on China by an otherwise high-quality RS - inaccurate reporting that came to light because it was pointed out by a reporter for Chinese state media. This case isn't isolated.their negative effects on the Wikipedia project
: I haven't seen examples where use of China Daily has harmed Wikipedia. Deprecation is a sledgehammer, and if we use it too broadly, we actually do run the risk of ending up with an encyclopedia that has strong national biases. What we need, instead, is for editors to have a bit of common sense, to understand policies around bias in sources, to know when to attribute statements, and to evaluate reliability in specific contexts. -Thucydides411 (talk) 23:35, 16 January 2021 (UTC)- Wrong.
市场主体
literally means the "market's main body"(most common Chinese definition), so there is no issue with国有企业要成为...的市场主体
being translated to "SOEs should be the core (player) of the market that ..." if one interprets the phrase this way, given the fact that there can be other "main bodies" in the market. The editor above, Thucydides411, should stop using machine translation to mislead themselves and others in this discussion. The more conducive way would be to first have a good understanding of the Chinese languages and the semantic and syntactic ambiguities specific to them. Normchou 💬 23:51, 16 January 2021 (UTC); edited 00:18, 17 January 2021 (UTC); edited 01:31, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- Okay, I understand your confusion now. You linked to the definition of
主体
, which by itself can indeed mean "main body". However, the full phrase市场主体
is the standard way of referring to any market player, large or small, in Chinese. Even native speakers who are unfamiliar with economics can get this wrong. You can verify that what I'm saying is correct by looking at actual uses of the phrase市场主体
. For example, here's a recent usage:“前三季度,全国共注吊销市场主体779.7万户,同比下降7.9%。其中,注吊销企业262.6万户,下降10.0%;注吊销个体工商户507.1万户,下降6.9%;注吊销农民专业合作社10.0万户,下降3.3%。”杨红灿说。
- The passage refers to 7.797 million 市场主体 being written off in the first three quarters of 2020. There obviously aren't 7.797 million "main bodies" of the market in China - and this is just the number that went under in 2020! And as a second example, here's a Chinese government website with instructions on how to create a 市场主体. They're obviously giving instructions on how to create a market entity, not on how to create the "main body" of the market. For what it's worth, Baidu Baike has a page defining 市场主体, and what it describes is any sort of market player. But really, just search the internet for the exact phrase
市场主体
, read what comes up, and you'll very quickly realize that this is standard terminology for any market entity. - Maybe the WSJ made the same mistake, assuming that 市场主体 means the "main body of the market", although that would be surprising, given that you'd expect WSJ to find a translator who's familiar with economics. But whatever the reason, the WSJ did mistranslate this passage and nearly inverted its meaning; the mistranslation came to light because of a Xinhua journalist who noticed it; and the WSJ has yet to issue a correction. -Thucydides411 (talk) 09:48, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- Ummm wait, since when have you been fluent in Mandarin? You’ve claimed the opposite in your interactions with me. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:42, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- Can you translate what you mean by "fluent" into HSK or the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages? But in all seriousness, my own exact proficiency level is not at issue here. As we've seen above, even native speakers can make mistakes when dealing with unfamiliar technical jargon. -Thucydides411 (talk) 18:55, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- If you’re trying to say that a native speaker has made a mistaken then yes your exact proficiency level does actually become an issue. Especially when you’ve never disclosed *any* Mandarin proficiency at all... Let alone the level you would need to correct a native speaker on technical jargon. Much the opposite in fact. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:03, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- You're venturing into ad hominem here. Do you think that
市场主体
means themarket's main body
, or do you think that it refers generally to any market entity? There isn't actually any real question about what the correct answer is (it's a technical term that means any sort of "market entity", regardless of size or importance), and personally attacking me does not constitute a convincing linguistic argument. -Thucydides411 (talk) 19:33, 17 January 2021 (UTC)- I highly dislike being mislead either by media outlets or wikipedia editors. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:48, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- 市场主体 means market entity,[47] though I think it is a term of art and not all native speakers are familiar with it. Possibly the Wall Street Journal's mistranslation is due to the word 主体, which often means "main part", but in this phrase might be better translated as "agent". See also wikt:主體. —Granger (talk · contribs) 22:28, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- I highly dislike being mislead either by media outlets or wikipedia editors. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:48, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- You're venturing into ad hominem here. Do you think that
- If you’re trying to say that a native speaker has made a mistaken then yes your exact proficiency level does actually become an issue. Especially when you’ve never disclosed *any* Mandarin proficiency at all... Let alone the level you would need to correct a native speaker on technical jargon. Much the opposite in fact. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:03, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- Can you translate what you mean by "fluent" into HSK or the Common European Framework of Reference for Languages? But in all seriousness, my own exact proficiency level is not at issue here. As we've seen above, even native speakers can make mistakes when dealing with unfamiliar technical jargon. -Thucydides411 (talk) 18:55, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- Ummm wait, since when have you been fluent in Mandarin? You’ve claimed the opposite in your interactions with me. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:42, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- Okay, I understand your confusion now. You linked to the definition of
- Wrong.
- Strongly disagreed. False equivalence and bothsidesism neither make one's argument more convincing, nor help with reducing bias.
- Another example to illustrate how poor coverage of China is in otherwise reliable sources, and how systematically deprecating Chinese sources will worsen WP:SYSTEMICBIAS on Wikipedia. Again, I use the Wall Street Journal, a source that is generally highly reliable, to illustrate my point. In a news (not opinion) article last June about Huawei and its founder Ren Zhengfei, the WSJ wrote,
Just over a month after his daughter's arrest, Mr. Ren visited a Huawei research-and-development center in Hangzhou, commanding employees to learn from the U.S. tech giant Google and 'surge forward, killing as you go, to blaze us a trail of blood,' according to a transcript confirmed by two Huawei executives.
- That sounds pretty terrible, until you realize that the phrase Ren Zhengfei used (
杀出一条血路
) is a standard idiom in Chinese that is commonly used and not perceived as extreme. Imagine literally translating a violent English idiom ("shooting ducks in a barrel", "kill two birds with one stone", "to go in with guns blazing", "to take a stab at it", etc.) into a foreign language, and presenting it as a direct quote. Again, the person who pointed out this misleading translation was Wang Zichen, a journalist who works for Xinhua. The person who actually translated Ren Zhengfei's speech for the WSJ, Eva Dou, said that WSJ editors had not let her review the draft of the article, and that some of the "nuance & context was lost". - The Times (generally reliable, per WP:RSP) then took this translation and ran with it, in an article titled "Huawei’s founder declares 'war' on West":
Huawei's founder urged workers to crush rivals and 'blaze a trail of blood' in the Chinese telecoms giant's battle for supremacy. Ren Zhengfei ordered staff at Huawei's research and development centre in Hangzhou, eastern China, to learn from Google's unrelenting march. 'Surge forward, killing as you go, to blaze us a trail of blood,' he said a month after the arrest of his daughter in Canada in 2018, according to a transcript seen by The Wall Street Journal.
- By the way, the transcript was not just "seen by the Wall Street Journal". It's been online from the beginning. Nobody at Huawei apparently realized that English speakers would be disturbed by a literal translation of a common Chinese idiom. Just to sum up: a Chinese CEO uses a common Chinese idiom, the WSJ translates it too literally into English, and The Times then picks it up and presents it as a blood-curdling declaration of war on the West. Neither the WSJ nor The Times has issued a correction. This is the sort of gross misrepresentation that we deprecate sources for. If we get rid of all Chinese sources, we'll be solely relying on sources like WSJ and The Times to report on China, and that's a bad idea. -Thucydides411 (talk) 12:34, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
- *Oppose Deprecation and as usual CONTEXT matters. I see no compelling argument and dislike casually dismissing sources entirely. This seems a major WEIGHT source, widely used outside and in WP articles, so it would be difficult to exclude anyway. With what seems solid editorial control and generally factual content, I don’t see any reason to exclude. Context should always be considered for RS, and even in suspect cases such are potentially useable as a WP:BIASED source, just like material from advocacy groups can be used. It’s not grounds for entire deprecation. Would one use Washington Post for Amazon content ? Probably just seek another source — but that doesn’t exclude WaPo from all articles. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 01:33, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose deprecation per Chetsford and Thucydides411. We cannot discount the biasness of the various so-called English-language WP:RS when they describe or criticize Chinese media in the first place. NoNews! 11:36, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose deprecation per Thucydides411 and WP:GLOBAL. NightHeron (talk) 11:49, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
- Option 2: They have been shown to fabricate information (see previous comments and the discussion below), so we should definitely indicate that. Also, clearly state that it is affiliated with a ruling political party, which needs to be taken into account. TucanHolmes (talk) 15:31, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose deprecation, support Option 2. This source is widely used both onwiki and offwiki, and fills an important niche (see Thucydides411's comment above, and WP:GLOBAL). However, given its status as party-controlled media, it should probably be treated as a WP:SELFSOURCE for content that directly discusses (for example, and off the top of my head) the CCP, geopolitics, or international relations. warmly, ezlev. talk 18:34, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose deprecation - A blanket deprecation would not be fair. STSC (talk) 03:22, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
Comment It absolutely astounds me that so many editors feel they can trust a "news" outlet that is directly owned and run by the Publicity Department of the Chinese Communist Party, commonly called the Propaganda Department. The idea that such an entity has the required editorial independence, fact-checking history, or reputation for accuracy required for WP:NEWSORG is absolutely laughable. IHateAccounts (talk) 16:57, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- Option 4 I'm finding it hard to see why we should treat this differently from China Global Television Network. One combats systemic bias by incorporating good information, not by relying upon propaganda. XOR'easter (talk) 17:07, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose deprecation unless someone can come up with actual examples of them being cited for garbage claims. Propaganda is, well, fairly ubiquitous in the year 2021. Being operated by a government with a history of execrable acts doesn't seem like a cogent prima facie reason for deprecation: how many articles cite Voice of America? Heck, how many articles cite the BBC? Obviously, it doesn't make sense to cite them for "Communism kicks ass[1]", or "the Xinjiang re-education camps are awesome[6]". However, we also don't cite "Capitalism kicks ass[1]" to the United States government. Propaganda does not mean "every statement made by the organization is the opposite of true"; (RSP entry), for example, is listed in RSP as being "generally reliable for factual reporting". We can use our brains to determine if individual pieces of reporting are trash. jp×g 20:29, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
Attempting to compare an owned-and-operated arm of the Chinese government's Propaganda Department to the BBC is so ridiculous, WP:FALSEBALANCE isn't even strong enough to describe it. IHateAccounts (talk) 23:35, 17 January 2021 (UTC)- Comparing and equating are different things. Jimmy Page and Jimmy Hoffa are different in many respects (one is a British guitarist and one was an American labor activist); a proposal to move the latter's article to "James Hoffa", however, would likely (and validly) result in the comparison being drawn. Pointing out that Jimmy Hoffa didn't know how to play the guitar, in this case, would be beside the point.
- By the same token, the mere fact of a press outlet being operated by a government does not prima facie make a case for deprecation, even when the government is quite brutal: Commentarii de Bello Gallico, a long piece of brazen political propaganda written by the Emperor of Rome, detailing a litany of what would now be considered war crimes (he slaughtered thousands of innocent civilians after capturing Avaricum), is to this day the main account from which we know the deeds of Vercingetorix. jp×g 02:03, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- Just FYI Commentarii de Bello Gallico is generally believed to have been written and published before Julius Caesar became Dictator. Also Julius Caesar was never Emperor of Rome, the first Emperor was Augustus. Accuracy matters, which is why given China Daily’s history of publishing disinformation we should deprecate them. We don’t consider media outlets which purposefully publish false information to be reliable regardless of whether or not they’re operated by a government. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:38, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- Horse Eye's Back, technically technically speaking both Julius Caesar and his adoptive son were both imperator in succession, Augustus was the first augustus (hence the name), neither was a monarch, the word "emperor" is an anachronism, and the Roman state remained a republic for a further fifteen centuries. GPinkerton (talk) 22:33, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- We aren’t talking about imperator (a concept which spans both time periods), we’re talking about the Roman emperor who was the ruler of the Roman Empire which wasn’t founded until 27 BC after the death of Julius Caesar. You are mistaken, the Roman Republic ended in 27 BC although the Empire would maintain the political trappings of the republic. If you would like to radically alter how wikipedia approaches Roman history be my guest, might I suggest starting with the opening sentence of Augustus? "Caesar Augustus (23 September 63 BC – 19 August AD 14) was the first Roman emperor, reigning from 27 BC until his death in AD 14.” seems to be clear enough. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:45, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- Horse Eye's Back, Wikipedia is not the place for such nuance, anchored as it is in the morass of popular historiographical tradition. Nothing changed in the Roman state's constitution in 27 BC; the heads of state remained the consuls, and Octavian was awarded the title of augustus. The Roman republic was referred to as such, including by the emperors themselves, well into the 15th century. "Emperor", as I have said, is just an anachronistic convention, as is "reign", at least for emperors like Augustus. The emperor Julian counted his distant relative Julius Caesar as an emperor, although he also listed Alexander the Great ... Nevertheless, Wikipedia bows to convention. GPinkerton (talk) 22:55, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- Are you seriously using a discussion about the reliability of China Daily as a venue to push pet theories about the continuity of political structures within the Roman state which aren’t supported by modern historians? Please review WP:FORUM. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:03, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- Horse Eye's Back, I can tell already I know more about what modern historians support on this subject than you do. GPinkerton (talk) 23:11, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- Are you seriously using a discussion about the reliability of China Daily as a venue to push pet theories about the continuity of political structures within the Roman state which aren’t supported by modern historians? Please review WP:FORUM. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:03, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- Horse Eye's Back, Wikipedia is not the place for such nuance, anchored as it is in the morass of popular historiographical tradition. Nothing changed in the Roman state's constitution in 27 BC; the heads of state remained the consuls, and Octavian was awarded the title of augustus. The Roman republic was referred to as such, including by the emperors themselves, well into the 15th century. "Emperor", as I have said, is just an anachronistic convention, as is "reign", at least for emperors like Augustus. The emperor Julian counted his distant relative Julius Caesar as an emperor, although he also listed Alexander the Great ... Nevertheless, Wikipedia bows to convention. GPinkerton (talk) 22:55, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- We aren’t talking about imperator (a concept which spans both time periods), we’re talking about the Roman emperor who was the ruler of the Roman Empire which wasn’t founded until 27 BC after the death of Julius Caesar. You are mistaken, the Roman Republic ended in 27 BC although the Empire would maintain the political trappings of the republic. If you would like to radically alter how wikipedia approaches Roman history be my guest, might I suggest starting with the opening sentence of Augustus? "Caesar Augustus (23 September 63 BC – 19 August AD 14) was the first Roman emperor, reigning from 27 BC until his death in AD 14.” seems to be clear enough. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:45, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- Horse Eye's Back, technically technically speaking both Julius Caesar and his adoptive son were both imperator in succession, Augustus was the first augustus (hence the name), neither was a monarch, the word "emperor" is an anachronism, and the Roman state remained a republic for a further fifteen centuries. GPinkerton (talk) 22:33, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- Just FYI Commentarii de Bello Gallico is generally believed to have been written and published before Julius Caesar became Dictator. Also Julius Caesar was never Emperor of Rome, the first Emperor was Augustus. Accuracy matters, which is why given China Daily’s history of publishing disinformation we should deprecate them. We don’t consider media outlets which purposefully publish false information to be reliable regardless of whether or not they’re operated by a government. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:38, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3 or 4 While I'm not very familiar with China Daily specifically, I am familiar with the general issues with any mainland PRC-based news media. In short, the PRC does not have press freedom or press independence, so comparisons to Western state-owned outlets like the BBC are specious. There are situations where the political/propaganda needs of the Chinese government will cause false or misleading stories to be run. For instance this [48] China Daily story falsely claims that "people's freedom of religious belief in Xinjiang is fully protected" (which is hard to believe with the reporting on Xinjiang re-education camps) and makes claims denying mosque destruction that are directly contradicted by this [49] more convincingly sourced New York Times report. Other examples should not be hard to find by searching for material on other sensitive issues, such as Xinjiang, Tibet Taiwan, or Hong Kong. At a minimum China Daily's WP:RSP entry should have the same kind of warnings attached to it as Xinhua:
“ | Xinhua News Agency is the official state-run press agency of the People's Republic of China. There is consensus that Xinhua is generally reliable for factual reporting except in areas where the government of China may have a reason to use it for propaganda or disinformation. Xinhua is also generally reliable for the views and positions of the Chinese government and its officials. For subjects where the Chinese government may be a stakeholder, the consensus is almost unanimous that Xinhua cannot be trusted to cover them accurately and dispassionately; some editors favour outright deprecation because of its lack of editorial independence. There is no consensus for applying any one single label to the whole of the agency. Caution should be exercised in using this source, extremely so in case of extraordinary claims on controversial subjects or biographies of living people. When in doubt, try to find better sources instead; use inline attribution if you must use Xinhua. | ” |
- GretLomborg (talk) 07:28, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3 or 4 for any content related to Chinese politics or any issue where the party control creates a conflict of interest, enough examples of lying have been presented to prove that. It is not possible to achieve NPOV by "balancing" state disinformation with independent journalism or scholarship. (t · c) buidhe 21:10, 23 January 2021 (UTC)
- Option 4. China Daily is to the Publicity Department of the Chinese Communist Party what Ibis is to Accor, or what Hampton Inn brand is to the Hilton Hotels & Resorts, or what Candlewood Suites are to InterContinental Hotels Group. It's their budget brand for the international market. ScrupulousScribe (talk) 04:12, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3
or 4. As many editors have stated before, the paper is censored when it deals with Chinese politics, and there have been plenty of examples of claim fabrication listed above to support that. This should be treated the same as Xinhua News Agency, as it cannot be trusted to cover subjects where the Chinese government may be a stakeholder both accurately and dispassionately. Mikehawk10 (talk) 22:37, 26 January 2021 (UTC)
- To update this, I think that it might be reliable enough to depict the official views or statements of the Chinese Communist Party, and we probably should avoid deprecation as a result of this function. I'm still under the belief that this is a generally unreliable source that engages in the fabrication of claims, and it thus should be generally avoided as a source except for the very specific case I have mentioned before. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 05:36, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3 or 4. It is indeed unreliable for identifying anything as a fact. This does not mean it is always wrong. My very best wishes (talk) 02:19, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- Option 2 (mundane articles) / Option 3 (controversial, nationalistic, etc. articles) The paper is owned by the Chinese government that is the most important thing to remember when using this source. The Chinese government has no problem making up facts to fit its desired narrative. Therefore, it is unreliable for anything controversial such as internal or external dissent, nationalism, etc. However the newspaper does have mundane content (e.g. culture, sports, technology, travel, etc articles), which is useful for covering this country of 1.4 billion people, for which there are only a limited number of English-language sources. --Guest2625 (talk) 07:06, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- I feel like a broken record at this point but China Daily is owned by a political party within China not the Chinese state. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:54, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- Oppose deprecation per Chetsford. Couldn't word it better myself. BrxBrx(talk)(please reply with {{SUBST:re|BrxBrx}}) 02:37, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
Option 4 - Deprecate. Admittedly, I've only stumbled upon a few articles but that was enough to know the political bias and/or nationalist bias of the paper. User:Normchou detailed "why" the best. I don't think these kind of very political sources should have any place in the Wikipedia.Magnus Dominus (talk) 14:56, 31 January 2021 (UTC)— Magnus Dominus (talk • contribs) is a confirmed sock puppet of Lordpermaximum (talk • contribs).- Option 2 The trend towards deprecating Chinese media sources makes it hard to source mundane topics that are not picked up by international news. I think it is generally understood by editors that they have some biases towards political topics, and we should assume that editors will be cautious when using these sources for such topics. We have processes to handle editors who are abusing sources to push a certain view. If consensus does move towards deprecation, I suggest that the deprecations be scoped to only non-mundane political issues (an article talking about the new mayor of Shenzhen would be OK, but an article talking about Hong Kong protests would be not) Jumpytoo Talk 06:00, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 4- Its owned by the Chinese Communist Party, one of the world leaders in propaganda and misinformation.--Rusf10 (talk) 06:10, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 1 based on the evidence presented. Being owned by a political party of a country that is not majority white is not a reason to deprecate, nor is using the unreliable MBFC. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 16:03, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Why do people always have to bring race into a discussion that has nothing to do with race? It's a shameful tactic. My opposition to this souce is not that its owned by Chinese people, but it is owned by the Chinese Communist Party. I thought pointing out this simple fact would be enough, but I guess some people like you don't know anything about the CCP. Read this BBC story about how the CCP uses China Daily to produce propganda videos for them. Here's the video, according to them the BBC is "fake news". Here's another article from the New York Times. Educate yourself.--Rusf10 (talk) 17:55, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- I do know about the CCP. Evidence of them exerting their influence on China Daily to promote "fake news" is need to propose deprecation, not merely establishing connection via ownership. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:37, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- I think you’re mistaken, its China Daily which says the BBC is Fake News not the other way around per the linked report "BBC in Xinjiang: Facts Don't Matter | China Daily visual investigation” Thats pretty clearly pushing disinformation, its irrelevant whether or not the CCP told them to do so. If they had completely independent ownership they would still be deprecatable, the lack of editorial independence is the cherry on top not the sunday. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:49, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Let me provide a transcript of the first 30 seconds of that hard hitting piece of investigative journalism: Reporter 1 “Fake News. The BBC is twisting the facts.” Reporter 2 “What? Did you say BBC is making things up?” Reporter 1 “Yeah, check out this video report on Xinjiang. They obviously didn’t do a complete investigation. I guess the media forums are correct: BBC stands for biased broadcasting corporation. They only report on China where they can make up some controversy especially when it comes to Xinjiang” Still standing by that Option 1?Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:58, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- I do know about the CCP. Evidence of them exerting their influence on China Daily to promote "fake news" is need to propose deprecation, not merely establishing connection via ownership. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:37, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 1 - Agreed with the other editors, being government-owned is not grounds for deprecation. China Daily does factual reporting, and it's entirely relevant for it to report on Chinese government positions. As a rule, sources can be biased, but that does not make them unreliable. LittleCuteSuit (talk) 23:05, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 2 for every kind of reporting except "politics and controversial events", Option 3 for "politics and controversial events" In some events, the source is known with its fact-checking, however, remembering that it's currently under the control of CCP is important.Ahmetlii (talk) 12:11, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Rusf10: As far as I see, not always. Yes, there's a censoring~and misrepresentation of information by CCP on some news, however, it's impossible to say "It always generates fabrication for all types of news" for all ordinary news (as opposed to Daily Mail).Ahmetlii (talk) 12:11, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 2 (for non political news about China), Option 3 (for news about other nations, political news about China) - China daily is essentially state media. For political articles, we can assume there would be a bias towards the Chinese Communist Part's POV which owns it. I would oppose using it for citing any political/non-China related fact in Wikipedia voice. Any citation must explicitly note that it is the view of the Chinese communist party. However, China Daily is generally useful for citing non-controversial facts about China such as geography, transport and administration, so I won't go so far as to deprecate it.--DreamLinker (talk) 15:34, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 4: The issue here is they do not stand to any editorial scrutiny, censorship is widespread, there is no de facto opposition media allowed, and the news that does come out is filtered or altered by the government with no independent checks and balances. Their aim is not be a reliable media outlet either, they are basically a press agency for the government. If we compare to lets say US or UK depreciated sources, at least we have a whole array of other media outlets to compare to and that are willing to call out misinformation or controversies regarding their competitors; furthermore in the US or the UK you can always try your case through the courts; I would argue that this is worse as no such thing happens nor is it possible. Abcmaxx (talk) 11:53, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 4: Deprecate. Apart from all the other examples given at length above, we have a worked example in the discussion: where a sincere Chinese reader, based on what they've read in China Daily, tries to explain to us that the Xinjiang internment camps don't exist. If China Daily leads to beliefs about the world like that, then we absolutely can't risk it being used as a source in Wikipedia, and it needs deprecation - David Gerard (talk) 13:24, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3 or 4: - it's state-controlled media (China Daily, established in 1981 as the national English-language newspaper) and because of the propaganda and governmental control in a country where they arrest whistleblowers, including journalists, I'd be skeptical about the validity of anything they publish. Sensationalism is one thing, reporting about a fire or weather event is something else, but it's highly unreliable for fact-based material about much else. I suppose we could use it from time to time by prepending any inline attribution with something along the line of "state-controlled China Daily published yada yada"...or something along those lines - if there is no other source to cite. Atsme 💬 📧 16:01, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 2 or lower. I can echo what User:Alaexis said. In areas that are not of interest to the Chinese Communist Party, the state media can be reliable. In others, don't touch them with a ten-foot pole, since it's plain propaganda. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:35, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 2 or 3 The problem of media inside China is, almost all are owned by CCP. While Sina, Baidu , etc. usually act as a host platform for blogger only. The non-political coverage (or issue that clearly have COI, such as government = CCP , any coverage on handling COVID are in doubt) generally "reliable" as no other source to rebut them as not reliable (unless you want to have no RS to WP:V ANY Mainland China content. Also note that there is not much foreign correspondents left in Mainland China and SCMP is now owned by Alibaba). China Daily is not Global Times which the latter is clearly a tabloid . Matthew hk (talk) 03:46, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 2 I am concerned that almost all media from China is being depreciated. I think this is going to to substantially impact the POV of articles dealing with China. This is not to say that any of the Chinese sources are more reliable, but they do perform reporting. In general, I am coming to the perspective that depreciation is a bad idea and instead in case where there are concerns about the source, we should clearly state the source for particular claims and trust Wiki readers to make their own judgments. Dhawk790 (talk) 14:51, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- It seems like a natural impact of China’s repressive media environment, remember that according to the Press Freedom Index[50] they are the fourth worst country in the world when it comes to press freedom (only Eritrea, Turkmenistan, and North Korea are ranked lower) so I would question your statement that journalists in China can actually perform reporting. That the Chinese government has chosen to silence (often violently) independent and reliable voices both within China and around the world as well as use their media organizations to spread both targeted and general disinformation is regrettable but its not something that Wikipedia can change, we can only apply our existing standards to the situation. We can’t just make a “China exception” when it comes to how we determine reliable sources. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:55, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- If the concern is the reporting environment than why wouldn't we have similar concerns about other reporting from China not just those from Chinese sources? Dhawk790 (talk) 18:25, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Have you not followed the mass exodus of journalists and editors from China in the last few years? They’ve almost all either been kicked out or fled in fear of being used for hostage diplomacy [51][52][53][54][55][56][57][58][59][60]. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:36, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- My point isn't about whether there is a concern about the reporting environment, my point is that if there is than shouldn't that concern apply to all sources not just Chinese ones. You doubted whether China Daily does any actual reporting, which may be fair, but it seems unlikely that China Daily would be unable to do reporting in China and the NY Times, for example, would be able to. Dhawk790 (talk) 18:45, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- I share your concern, but this section is about China Daily. If you wanted to make a section for media in China in general I’d participate in the discussion and share relevant sources. Some of the sources above raise this issue but remember that outside of this recent panic concerns over hostage diplomacy, non-free reporting environments, and the safety of local sources and staff have *always* been an issue with reporting in totalitarian states, China isn’t unique in this regard. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:35, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- My point isn't about whether there is a concern about the reporting environment, my point is that if there is than shouldn't that concern apply to all sources not just Chinese ones. You doubted whether China Daily does any actual reporting, which may be fair, but it seems unlikely that China Daily would be unable to do reporting in China and the NY Times, for example, would be able to. Dhawk790 (talk) 18:45, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Have you not followed the mass exodus of journalists and editors from China in the last few years? They’ve almost all either been kicked out or fled in fear of being used for hostage diplomacy [51][52][53][54][55][56][57][58][59][60]. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:36, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- If the concern is the reporting environment than why wouldn't we have similar concerns about other reporting from China not just those from Chinese sources? Dhawk790 (talk) 18:25, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Deprecation and depreciation are two different things. Perhaps the fact that some many people get them mixed up shows how bad this deprecation system is.
- It seems like a natural impact of China’s repressive media environment, remember that according to the Press Freedom Index[50] they are the fourth worst country in the world when it comes to press freedom (only Eritrea, Turkmenistan, and North Korea are ranked lower) so I would question your statement that journalists in China can actually perform reporting. That the Chinese government has chosen to silence (often violently) independent and reliable voices both within China and around the world as well as use their media organizations to spread both targeted and general disinformation is regrettable but its not something that Wikipedia can change, we can only apply our existing standards to the situation. We can’t just make a “China exception” when it comes to how we determine reliable sources. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:55, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 2: The site did on occasion feature dubious claims (mostly about Chinese politics from what I can tell), though in the end, the majority of its articles have in my experience been very factual. It is true that you will not find articles criticising the Chinese government there, but for that there are plenty of other news outlets one can use; the debate is not whether China Daily should be the only source being used on Wikipedia and therefore it is pretty irrelevant what it does not cover. As the site provides reliable reporting on most non-Chinese topics it does cover, I see no reason for deprecation. As an example, look through its section about European news and whether it features factual information or not – as a German comparing it to the reporting in our media, it is. Sarrotrkux (talk) 21:33, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
Discussion (China Daily)
I just want to highlight some content from China Daily:
In both cases, we have outrageous lies pushed by China Daily. There are more at China Daily. Adoring nanny (talk) 19:09, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
- These are both Facebook posts, not articles published in the China Daily. I don't think we consider any newspaper's social media accounts to be reliable sources. At least, I've never seen someone try to cite the NY Times' Twitter account on Wikipedia. -Thucydides411 (talk) 20:44, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
And just today, we have this:
Eradication of extremism has given Xinjiang women more autonomy, says report.[66]
Missing in China Daily's discussion of the "autonomy" of Uighur women is any mention of the Xinjiang re-education camps. Adoring nanny (talk) 02:47, 8 January 2021 (UTC)7
- The last of these articles gained notoriety in the past day after an excerpt from the article was shared on Twitter by the Chinese Embassy in the United States. The excerpt is reproduced below:
Chinese Embassy in US | |
---|---|
@ChineseEmbinUS |
Study shows that in the process of eradicating extremism, the minds of Uygur women in Xinjiang were emancipated and gender equality and reproductive health were promoted, making them no longer baby-making machines. They are more confident and independent.
Eradication of extremism has given Xinjiang women more autonomy, says report
January 7, 2021[1]
References
- ^ Chinese Embassy in US [@ChineseEmbinUS] (January 7, 2021). "Study shows that in the process of eradicating extremism, the minds of Uygur women in Xinjiang were emancipated and gender equality and reproductive health were promoted, making them no longer baby-making machines. They are more confident and independent. [www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202101/07/WS5ff6fb03a31024ad0baa134a.html Eradication of extremism has given Xinjiang women more autonomy, says report]" (Tweet). Archived from the original on January 9, 2021 – via Twitter.
- This tweet (and accompanying China Daily article) appears to be a defense of certain elements of the Uyghur genocide, and has received coverage in Ars Technica (RSP entry) and an opinion piece in the Washington Examiner (RSP entry). — Newslinger talk 06:45, 8 January 2021 (UTC) Added archive link. — Newslinger talk 11:17, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
- As morally unacceptable as that is, "moral unacceptability" is not part of WP:RS, so I think we should judge based on factual accuracy. (t · c) buidhe 13:03, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- Ok, let's look at factual accuracy. From the China Daily article: The research center's report said safe, effective and appropriate contraceptive measures are now available to couples of childbearing age in Xinjiang, and their personal decisions on whether to use those measures — which include tubal ligation and the insertion of intrauterine devices — are fully respected.
- Ok, let's look at factual accuracy. From the China Daily article:
- As morally unacceptable as that is, "moral unacceptability" is not part of WP:RS, so I think we should judge based on factual accuracy. (t · c) buidhe 13:03, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- Contrast this with reports from actual WP:RS of forced sterilization of Uyghur women [67][68]. Is forcing sterilization on someone consistent with respecting their decision on whether or not to use contraception? And the nail in the coffin -- one might argue that China Daily was simply reporting what the "research center" said and was therefore accurate. But in that case, shouldn't they have characterized both the "report" and the "research center" differently? Because neither "research" nor "report" are accurate characterizations of the document in question, are they? Adoring nanny (talk) 13:44, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- Just focussing on factual accuracy almost all of it is false. This is not a study that an independent source or one with basic fact checking abilities would have used. Its almost laughable, lets for instance contrast this statement with the well known second class political status of women in modern China "In the process of eradicating extremism, the minds of Uygur women were emancipated and gender equality and reproductive health were promoted, making them no long baby-making machines, it said. Women have since been striving to become healthy, confident and independent.” The CCP doesn't promote female emancipation and gender equality even for Han women... Are we really expected to believe they do it for the women of a minority which by all reports they are repressing? I’ve certainly never seen a WP:RS give these sort of bullshit propaganda reports the time of day. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:55, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- I think this conversation should stick to source analysis, but just as a matter of historical interest, one of the major societal reforms that the Communist Party tried to carry out after coming to power in 1949 was to change the status of women in society (e.g., legalizing divorce, trying to stop forced/arranged marriages). The New Marriage Law was one of the first laws the PRC passed, and it was accompanied by massive propaganda campaigns to get people to accept it. The status of women, more generally, was one of the major issues of contention between the Communists and Nationalists (the latter taking a much more traditional view of women's roles in society). That is to say, while you say it's ridiculous to think that the CPC would ever promote female emancipation, it wouldn't actually be out of line with their history or ideology. This isn't a comment on the specific report that China Daily reported on - I haven't looked into it carefully. -Thucydides411 (talk) 16:19, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
- You seem to be missing that post-Mao the status of women within the Party and in society in general plummeted, today there are no significant female party leaders and both within and outside the party women have second class status. If you want a better understanding of the modern history may I suggest Judd’s The Chinese Women's Movement? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:40, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- I think this conversation should stick to source analysis, but just as a matter of historical interest, one of the major societal reforms that the Communist Party tried to carry out after coming to power in 1949 was to change the status of women in society (e.g., legalizing divorce, trying to stop forced/arranged marriages). The New Marriage Law was one of the first laws the PRC passed, and it was accompanied by massive propaganda campaigns to get people to accept it. The status of women, more generally, was one of the major issues of contention between the Communists and Nationalists (the latter taking a much more traditional view of women's roles in society). That is to say, while you say it's ridiculous to think that the CPC would ever promote female emancipation, it wouldn't actually be out of line with their history or ideology. This isn't a comment on the specific report that China Daily reported on - I haven't looked into it carefully. -Thucydides411 (talk) 16:19, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
- Well, there you have it: government-run press outlets aren't particularly reliable on the subject of whether the government in question is perpretrating something horrific. Everyone knows that. We shouldn't be using those statements to reference statements about that issue. This would be true for any source in any country. For example, the 2021 election in Chad is almost certainly going to be rigged; the article manages to cite statements from the current president about what he said, while also citing statements from RS about whether it's true. What's this got to do with wholesale deprecation? jp×g 20:38, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- Update: According to The Guardian (RSP entry), Twitter took down this tweet, having concluded that it breaks its rules. The Guardian highlights the discrepancies between the claims in the China Daily article and the results of the investigation by the Associated Press (RSP entry). Additionally, The Guardian confirms that the Xinjiang Development Research Center study is "unpublished", which makes China Daily the original published source of the claims. — Newslinger talk 11:21, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
- China Daily attributes the claims to the report. Unless you're claiming that China Daily fabricated the existence of this report, what is the RS problem here? Are we going to deprecate newspapers that describe the contents of Chinese government reports that editors find objectionable? -Thucydides411 (talk) 20:49, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
- The problem is that they described it as a "research report", and not as "propaganda" or the like. When one invents lies and publishes them, that's not research. For an example of an appropriate way to cover nonsensical claims, see The Atlantic here.[69]. At no point do they ever refer to any of the nonsensical claims they cover as "research".Adoring nanny (talk) 16:09, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- China Daily is reporting the claims of a report written by a governmental group. China Daily repeatedly attributes those claims to the report, just as it should do. You're saying that China Daily is not reliable because it does not inject the types of editorial comments you would like it to make. Of course China Daily is going to write about reports created by the Chinese government, but as long as it properly attributes the claims, it's usable. On the other hand, a lot of the claims being made about Xinjiang come from the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, which was created by the US government, and which could just as easily be viewed as a propaganda organization. That doesn't mean that the claims are wrong, but this connection is rarely explained in news articles (including by the AP) about Xinjiang that rely on claims that come from this organization. -Thucydides411 (talk) 17:17, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- I think the point you’re missing is that a WP:RS would never have taken that report at face value as China Daily does, the claims made in it are absurd (as are most claims China makes about human rights issues within China, remember that according to themselves the Chinese government respects human rights more than literally any other government on earth). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:29, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- Are you arguing here that China Daily's article is inaccurate? All I can see is that you're arguing that they do not make an editorial comment that you would like them to make. If one were to note (with attribution, of course) the views of the Chinese government on this issue, then this China Daily article would be a good source, because it explains what the Chinese government report states. -Thucydides411 (talk) 23:47, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, the word "research" is inaccurate. The phrase "study shows" is also false. And phrases like these frame the reader's understanding of the entire piece. Adoring nanny (talk) 01:48, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- The China Daily article does not use the phrase, "study shows". The article also describes the "research report" written by Adrian Zenz of the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation (established by the US government). The China Daily article doesn't say that Zenz' claims are wrong, and it doesn't say that the Chinese government's claims are wrong. You're essentially demanding that the article take an editorial stand, but if we want a source that simply describes the claims made by the Chinese government report, I don't see why that's necessary. -Thucydides411 (talk) 15:57, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- The phrase "Study shows" is from the tweet describing the article, not from the article itself. But the underlying problem here is that the article frames the report as "research", which it is not. If we were to allow it as WP:RS, a user might reasonably paraphrase it to say "research shows that Uighur women's decisions about contraception are respected", which is obviously nonsense. Additionally, as User:Newslinger pointed out, the document they describe as the "research center's report" itself is unpublished. So China Daily is effectively the original publisher of this "information". Under the standard you are proposing, anybody could type up a document, call themselves a "research center", and then any source could decribe the document as a "research center's report", regardless of its contents. For example, "research institute says that the Theory of Evolution has been refuted."[70]. Adoring nanny (talk) 16:32, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- The tweet comes from the Chinese Embassy in the US, not from China Daily, and we're not discussing whether tweets are reliable sources, anyways (we typically wouldn't cite tweets from any news outlet). There is an actual report by a Chinese government agency. China Daily has seen the report and is reporting on its contents. Other news outlets have also reported on the contents of the report, and even interviewed the author.
a user might reasonably paraphrase it to say "research shows [...]"
. That would be user error. A better paraphrase would be, "A report written by a Chinese government agency stated, ...". Note the attribution, which makes it clear to readers that we are reporting the views of a third party. Inclusion would be subject to the usual considerations of weight, NPOV, etc. -Thucydides411 (talk) 17:02, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- The tweet comes from the Chinese Embassy in the US, not from China Daily, and we're not discussing whether tweets are reliable sources, anyways (we typically wouldn't cite tweets from any news outlet). There is an actual report by a Chinese government agency. China Daily has seen the report and is reporting on its contents. Other news outlets have also reported on the contents of the report, and even interviewed the author.
- The phrase "Study shows" is from the tweet describing the article, not from the article itself. But the underlying problem here is that the article frames the report as "research", which it is not. If we were to allow it as WP:RS, a user might reasonably paraphrase it to say "research shows that Uighur women's decisions about contraception are respected", which is obviously nonsense. Additionally, as User:Newslinger pointed out, the document they describe as the "research center's report" itself is unpublished. So China Daily is effectively the original publisher of this "information". Under the standard you are proposing, anybody could type up a document, call themselves a "research center", and then any source could decribe the document as a "research center's report", regardless of its contents. For example, "research institute says that the Theory of Evolution has been refuted."[70]. Adoring nanny (talk) 16:32, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- The China Daily article does not use the phrase, "study shows". The article also describes the "research report" written by Adrian Zenz of the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation (established by the US government). The China Daily article doesn't say that Zenz' claims are wrong, and it doesn't say that the Chinese government's claims are wrong. You're essentially demanding that the article take an editorial stand, but if we want a source that simply describes the claims made by the Chinese government report, I don't see why that's necessary. -Thucydides411 (talk) 15:57, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, the word "research" is inaccurate. The phrase "study shows" is also false. And phrases like these frame the reader's understanding of the entire piece. Adoring nanny (talk) 01:48, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- Are you arguing here that China Daily's article is inaccurate? All I can see is that you're arguing that they do not make an editorial comment that you would like them to make. If one were to note (with attribution, of course) the views of the Chinese government on this issue, then this China Daily article would be a good source, because it explains what the Chinese government report states. -Thucydides411 (talk) 23:47, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- I think the point you’re missing is that a WP:RS would never have taken that report at face value as China Daily does, the claims made in it are absurd (as are most claims China makes about human rights issues within China, remember that according to themselves the Chinese government respects human rights more than literally any other government on earth). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:29, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- China Daily is reporting the claims of a report written by a governmental group. China Daily repeatedly attributes those claims to the report, just as it should do. You're saying that China Daily is not reliable because it does not inject the types of editorial comments you would like it to make. Of course China Daily is going to write about reports created by the Chinese government, but as long as it properly attributes the claims, it's usable. On the other hand, a lot of the claims being made about Xinjiang come from the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, which was created by the US government, and which could just as easily be viewed as a propaganda organization. That doesn't mean that the claims are wrong, but this connection is rarely explained in news articles (including by the AP) about Xinjiang that rely on claims that come from this organization. -Thucydides411 (talk) 17:17, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- The problem is that they described it as a "research report", and not as "propaganda" or the like. When one invents lies and publishes them, that's not research. For an example of an appropriate way to cover nonsensical claims, see The Atlantic here.[69]. At no point do they ever refer to any of the nonsensical claims they cover as "research".Adoring nanny (talk) 16:09, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- @Firestar464: Could you please revise the RfC statement (the text between the {{rfc}} tag and the first timestamp) to meet WP:RFCBRIEF, which requires the RfC statement to be "neutral and brief"? Specifically, "Media Bias Fact Check classifies it ... 'state propaganda.'" cannot be in the RfC statement since it advocates for a position, but you can move it into either the survey or discussion section. The link to MBFC's rating of China Daily should also be moved or removed from the RfC statement. — Newslinger talk 21:51, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
Done Firestar464 (talk) 11:38, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
Comment regarding the above: Xinjiang and Tibet (along with HK, Taiwan, the South China Sea) are two controversial areas that we should probably refrain from using Chinese state media in, but for most non-controversial mainland news, it should be WP:RS. Félix An (talk) 02:47, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
- The problem with that is that we can't know in advance what they are going to start lying about. In general, a rule like this would require readers to keep up with a lengthy and continually changing list of areas of concern. For example, prior to December, 2019, there was no reason to suspect their information about coronaviruses. See also Censorship in China. Adoring nanny (talk) 12:03, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
- This seems that out of thousands of articles in hundreds of topic areas there are some CCP-sensitive pieces of concern or POV differences. But this is not showing an issue re RS attributes with all content, most content, or even a common occurrence. Got any problem with their topics today of Covid, or Plastics, or Smartphones ? Or is it just China political content ? If there was bad info on in 2019, is that not the same info all papers had at the time and a matter outside them? Cheers Markbassett (talk) 02:14, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
- The Chinese government and their media entities spreading covid related disinformation has actually been an acute problem, are you unaware of this? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:32, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- Stop it with the unfounded Association fallacy accusation. We are specifically talking about the China Daily here, show evidence directly about the China Daily. NoNews! 02:13, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
We aren't talking about separated entities here, such as the Washington Post being owned by the same person that owns Amazon. We're talking about multiple arms of the same cephalopod; China Daily is directly owned and run by the Publicity Department of the Chinese Communist Party, commonly called the Propaganda Department. IHateAccounts (talk) 02:29, 17 January 2021 (UTC)- Agreed, and it was a wrong use of the term association fallacy. This is not about "ownership" in its usual sense of being a shareholder (which is essentially the residual claimant), but about the direct command and control from the Chinese Communist Party and the lack of editorial independence by design for all Chinese state media. Normchou 💬 02:41, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- Stop it with the unfounded Association fallacy accusation. We are specifically talking about the China Daily here, show evidence directly about the China Daily. NoNews! 02:13, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
- The Chinese government and their media entities spreading covid related disinformation has actually been an acute problem, are you unaware of this? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:32, 16 January 2021 (UTC)
- This seems that out of thousands of articles in hundreds of topic areas there are some CCP-sensitive pieces of concern or POV differences. But this is not showing an issue re RS attributes with all content, most content, or even a common occurrence. Got any problem with their topics today of Covid, or Plastics, or Smartphones ? Or is it just China political content ? If there was bad info on in 2019, is that not the same info all papers had at the time and a matter outside them? Cheers Markbassett (talk) 02:14, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
On a separate note, there are a lot of editors writing "oppose deprecation," though not everyone is actually saying what option they are in favor of. Options 1, 2, and 3 each do not involve deprecation, so I am not sure where consensus currently is pointing. It looks like the majority of editors have concerns regarding the paper's ability to cover China, so is this something we wind up breaking into multiple categories (such as we do for FOX News and Huffington Post)? Mikehawk10 (talk) 20:51, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- I suppose Option 2 is a good summary – many editors have raised concerns about political topics, but many have pointed out that China Daily is generally reliable for ordinary news. If we wanted to go the "Fox News" route, maybe Option 1 for most news about China, Option 3 for internationally controversial political issues. As User:Jumpytoo pointed out above, China Daily is generally reliable for mundane (uncontroversial) political news. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:50, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- Most of out currently deprecated sources, for instance RT, would be generally reliable for mundane (uncontroversial) political news. That isn't the standard we use, the whole MO of a modern state media source with a penchant for disinformation is to have the disinformation make up only a small fraction of your reporting. Thats why we focus on the small amount of reporting (normally 1-5%) which is problematic and not the 95-99% that isn't. The other big flaw in that argument is that without inside access to the CCP we don’t know what they consider to be controversial or political which renders it at best an entirely unachievable standard. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:48, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
Hello,everyone!I am a Wikimedian from Jiangsu China.My English is terrible,so I use Chinese to talk.首先,中国的新闻还算自由(至少和朝鲜民主主义人民共和国相比好多了),第二,由于某些文化差异与政治上的意识形态差异,所以请不要使用西方的思维来思考中国发生的事情。维吾尔人大多生育一人以上的子女,而中国大陆在2015年之前法律规定都倡导生育一个,而大部分维吾尔族人士有“超生”现象,所以绝育是无稽之谈。关于禁止说维语:中国的通用语言是普通话,维吾尔语是少数民族语言,有一说一,目前来看,维语的保护形势比方言好多了,所以某些西方媒体还是关注一下中国的方言吧!此外,新疆的确有宗教极端分子。别一天到晚说那些稍微了解一些中国状况的人都觉得毁三观的“新闻”!关于香港:香港自秦朝以来就属于中国领土的一部分,秦朝时归属南海郡,清朝时归属广东省。我看过VOA关于香港抗议的视频,掐头去尾,只留下容易对港警行为产生歧义的片段。总体上来说,中国日报对于香港的报道比苹果日报以及VOA为首的某些西方媒体好多了。每个人都喜欢另类的东西,比起真正的中国,大部分人更喜欢不一样的中国,所以某些媒体就想方设法的抹黑中国。而且由于中国的意识形态与西方国家存在差异,所以说这种污名化会更加受到欢迎。希望会中文的人士帮我把我的言论翻译一下!谢谢!Jerry (talk) 02:58, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- 有一点忘记说了,补上,省的给我扣帽子:所谓再教育营存在吗?不存在,澳大利亚智库以及BBC的报道中所谓的“再教育营”中,有工厂,刑事羁押机构甚至是学校,我想问一下,各位所在的国家有学校吗?学校里面装监控吗?有刑事羁押机构吗?进去蹲牢的标准是什么?有工厂吗?工厂有监控有围栏吗?我敢说,按照BBC的标准,世界各地都有(包括英国)Jerry (talk) 03:15, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
[Translation of the above statement] First of all, China has some sort of news freedom (at least, much better than North Korea). Secondly, due to some cutural and ideology differences, please REFRAIN from using western minds to interpret things going on in China. Most Uyghurs raise more than one child. Mainland China advocates that each family should raise only one child by law until 2015. Most Uyghurs fail to meet this requirement (that they should only have one child), therefore, it is TOTAL NONSENSE to say "sterilization". Regarding the ban of the use of the Uyghur language: The general language of China is Putonghua/mandarin Chinese. Frankly speaking, currently, the preservation status of the Uyghur language is much, much better than Chinese dialects. Thus, "some certain western media" (in China environment, the use of "some certain" usually contains sarcasm), focus more on Chinse dialects! There ARE regious extremisms in Xinjiang. DO NEVER report those "news" that even someone with only bare knowledge of China would find them breaking their worldview, philosophy and value! About Hong Kong: IT IS A PART OF CHINA SINCE QIN DYNASTY. During Qin Dynasty, it belongs to "South-sea county"; during Qing Dynasty, it belongs to Guangdong Province. I have seen the VOA video about HK protest. Much shorter, no [video] beginnings or endings, with only the clips that make people easy to misundstand the behaviors of HK police. In a nutshell, China Daily is MUCH BETTER than "those some certain western media led by VOA and Apple Daily". Everyone likes alternate things. Compared to the true China, most people want a different China. Therefore, "some certain media" defame China USING ANY WAY THEY CAN. In addition, because the ideology of China is different from that of western countries, those smears are more welcome. I hope someone [whose native language is English] who know Chinese could translate my statements, thank you! (Yeah, I have done your favor, although I am a Chinese native speaker who know English) [Original statement posted by User:城市酸儒文人挖坑, translated by Milky·Defer 04:50, 14 February 2021 (UTC)]
- [Translation of the above statement] I forgot something, and I add it here, so that nobody could
accuse me that I am poisoning the well(correction: poison my well). Those so-claimed reeducation camps, do they exist? NO, NEVER! The "reeducation camps" from Australian think tank and BBC reports, contains factories, detention centers, even schools. I may ask, don't you have schools in your country? Don't schools have surveillance cameras? Don't you have detention centers? What's the criteria that make people go into jail? Don't you have factories? Don't them have surveillance cameras and fences? I dare to say, based on the BBC standard, everywhere in the world, including Britain, does (have "reeducation camps"). [Original statement posted by User:城市酸儒文人挖坑, translated by Milky·Defer 04:50, 14 February 2021 (UTC)]- We are talking about the China Daily here, show evidence directly about the China Daily. --BlackShadowG★ (talk) 07:03, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- The above statement by Jerry, arguing with apparent sincerity that the Xinjiang internment camps do not exist, is an excellent, if inadvertent, illustration of why CCP-led media, including China Daily, need to be deprecated. Adoring nanny (talk) 11:07, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- jfc. Yes, if China Daily leads to beliefs about the world like that, it needs deprecation - David Gerard (talk) 13:24, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Agreed.
由于某些文化差异与政治上的意识形态差异,所以请不要使用西方的思维来思考中国发生的事情
is the exact type of platitude which has been indoctrinated into the Chinese people when it comes to criticisms of the CCP, and which is intended for those in the West who are susceptible to "orientalist" sympathies towards the "other people in the East" to believe. But no, this has little to do with "culture" or "diversity". It is precisely political in nature. Normchou 💬 20:38, 14 February 2021 (UTC)- 我声明一点:我弗曾畀洗脑过,如果侬箇佬讲个话,我可弗可以视为箇是弗尊重事实?是对我人格个侮辱?言论自由没有错,但请侬注意一注意侬自由个度!Jerry (talk) 07:48, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- [Translation of the above statement] Let me make it clear: I have NEVER been brainwashed. If you insist that, may I see it as not respecting reality? May I see it as an insult to my personality? There is nothing wrong with freedom of speech, but DO MIND ITS BOUNDRY! [Original statement in Wu Chinese posted by User:城市酸儒文人挖坑 aka Jerry, translated by Milky·Defer 08:54, 15 February 2021 (UTC)]
- 楼高头额宁首先请提高自噶额阅读理解能力,弗要动弗动就对号入座。欸有,此地是英文维基百科RSN,来发言额宁是弗是要有一定程度额英文水平,帮理解同自噶弗一样文化额知识储备帮视野?尤其是当一个宁指责别宁
使用西方的思维
额辰光,侬晓得侬勒嗨港撒伐?吾实则上都弗想回复箇种低信息量额发言,但还是忍弗住补充一句: Indoctrination can exist both explicitly and subliminally, and with varying degrees of sophistication. There are many "buttons" in the collective (sub)consciousness of the Chinese people that are the direct result of this process (e.g., their response to the mere statement "Taiwan is a different country from China"). I will not digress any further, and anyone who knows enough about contemporary China issues understands precisely what I am talking about. Once again, I am strongly for the deprecation of all CCP-controlled media outlets, and the above thread shows an excellent example of why this needs to be done. Normchou 💬 17:59, 15 February 2021 (UTC)- Maybe,you need to read this:wuu:Wikipedia:用词指南8.210.36.128 (talk) 08:57, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- This is the English Wikipedia, Please write in English, it makes it easier for other editors to join the conversation. --BlackShadowG★ (talk) 10:18, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- 楼高头额宁首先请提高自噶额阅读理解能力,弗要动弗动就对号入座。欸有,此地是英文维基百科RSN,来发言额宁是弗是要有一定程度额英文水平,帮理解同自噶弗一样文化额知识储备帮视野?尤其是当一个宁指责别宁
RfC: Asian News International (ANI)
Asian News International (ANI) is a news agency used as a news feed by several publication in India and is directly cited to on 609 articles; aninews.in
. There is a dispute regarding its reliability on Talk:2021 Farmers' Republic day parade § ANI is not reliable source.
Which option best describes the reliability of Asian News International (ANI)?
- Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting.
- Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply.
- Option 3: Generally unreliable for factual reporting.
- Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated.
Tayi Arajakate Talk 14:10, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
Survey (Asian News International)
- Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated. ANI has been documented by multiple sources including the non-governmental organisation EU DisinfoLab[1][2] among others[3][4][5] that found ANI peddling fake news and disinformation,[6][7] to help the ruling party BJP in India.[8] --Walrus Ji (talk) 14:26, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
References
- ^ "The dead professor and the vast pro-India disinformation campaign". BBC News. 10 December 2020. Retrieved 28 January 2021.
- ^ Staff, Scroll. "What the EU NGO report claiming to have uncovered a 15-year Indian disinformation campaign tells us". Scroll.in. Retrieved 28 January 2021.
- ^ Webqoof, Team (10 December 2020). "ANI Boosted Huge Global Network of Fake Media Websites: Study". TheQuint. Retrieved 28 January 2021.
- ^ Staff, J. K. R. (8 April 2020). "ANI caught spreading fake news on Tablighi Jamaat, news agency faces social media roasting after Noida Police's extraordinary tweet". Janta Ka Reporter 2.0. Retrieved 28 January 2021.
- ^ Caravan, The. "ANI, Srivastava Group named in massive EU disinformation campaign to promote Modi government's interests". The Caravan. Retrieved 28 January 2021.
- ^ "ANI - A tale of inadvertent errors and oversights". Alt News. 21 October 2018. Retrieved 28 January 2021.
- ^ "Noida police accuse ANI of 'fake news' for adding Tablighi Jamaat angle to Covid-19 quarantine exercise". Newslaundry. Retrieved 28 January 2021.
- ^ Donthi, Praveen. "How ANI Reports The Government's Version Of Truth". The Caravan.
- Option 4: Has functioned as major conduit for fake news via Indian Chronicles disinformation campaign. Acousmana (talk) 15:29, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3 or 4 based on their track record and reputation. In the specific context given I don’t think theres any possible debate about them being a reliable source, if they are reliable for anything it won’t be Indian politics. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:53, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting. Considering the extraordinary number of citations from ANI by other media organization. And also the reliability issue of the sources quoted above. ANI can be considered generally reilable. DavidWood11 (talk) 17:48, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- Option 1 per WP:USEBYOTHERS because it is regularly used as a source by high-quality reliable news platforms such as The Daily Guardian, BBC News, Scroll.in, Times Now, Hindustan Times and many more so their reliability should be gauged by who reuse on their data. GSS 💬 04:06, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
- GSS, this is largely inaccurate. The Daily Guardian doesn't use it, BBC News does not use it as an agency feed and quotes it with in-text attribution within articles (For context, BBC quotes Chinese state media in a similar manner), Scroll.in uses it in the same manner as well. Times Now is also not a high quality reliable sources, being a publisher of conspiracy theories itself.[1]
- It's also not used as an agency feed by Indian newspaper which are considered to be generally reliable such as The Indian Express (RSP entry) or The Hindu (RSP entry); see [71] and [72]. Tayi Arajakate Talk 06:11, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
- @Tayi Arajakate: In that case we have The Siasat Daily [73], Lokmat [74], Telangana Today [75] and The New Indian Express [76] (maybe more) they all use ANI as an agency feed. GSS 💬 06:40, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
- GSS, you can probably find more, simply because there isn't a lack of news outlets in India. In this particular case these are all mostly regional newspapers, some of which are problematic in their own right. Being a large news agency, ANI is used by a number of newspapers but that doesn't translate to use by high quality sources. Many newspapers also tend to subscribe to all four news agencies with a national reach; Press Trust of India, Indo-Asian News Service and United News of India being the others, not because of any consideration for either of their reliability which WP:UBO presumes.
- For instance, The New Indian Express possibly has issues with undisclosed advertisments and paid news,[2] while Telangana Today is owned by the K. Chandrashekar Rao and is criticised for partisan coverage and censorship in Telangana.[3][4] I don't think these would have high standards for fact checking. Tayi Arajakate Talk 08:15, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
- @Tayi Arajakate: In that case we have The Siasat Daily [73], Lokmat [74], Telangana Today [75] and The New Indian Express [76] (maybe more) they all use ANI as an agency feed. GSS 💬 06:40, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
References
- ^ Farokhi, Zeinab (2020). "Hindu Nationalism, News Channels, and "Post-Truth" Twitter: A Case Study of "Love Jihad"". In Boler, Megan; Davis, Elizabeth (eds.). Affective Politics of Digital Media: Propaganda by Other Means. Routledge. pp. 226–239. ISBN 978-1-000-16917-1.
- ^ Rowlatt, Justin (28 May 2018). "The story barely reported by Indian media". BBC News. Retrieved 29 January 2021.
- ^ Pogadadanda, Revathi (9 July 2020). "Attacks on the press and doublespeak: How the KCR regime is bungling Telangana's Covid fight". Newslaundry. Retrieved 29 January 2021.
- ^ Shaw, Padmaja (20 July 2018). "When the Chief Minister Is Also a Media Owner". The Wire. Retrieved 29 January 2021.
- Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated. There are extensive and documented instances of active misinformation by ANI. It should not be relied on, particularly as it has the practice of simply deleting stories subsequently, and not formally withdrawing/apologizing for false claims. - Naushervan (talk) 04:46, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3: Given its track record on publishing misinformation [77][78][79][80][81][82][83][84][85][86] and its habit of publishing pro-government propaganda [87][88][89], it must be considered WP:QUESTIONABLE for factual reporting. SUN EYE 1 07:24, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
- Option 2: per WP:USEBYOTHERS tied to BBC et al, and extent of WP acceptance directly cited to on 609 articles; aninews.in
. And it seems a major WEIGHT media player. That altnews.in sometimes disagrees shown above seems a minor item. I would suggest that any use should, as always follow CONTEXTMATTERS and the question should be is it a good cite for a line in question. If it’s an opinion piece, then don’t use it as fact cite. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 00:30, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- It's disingenuous to describe ANI withdrawing stories after an IFCN accredited fact-checker like Altnews (or for that matter Boomlive) point out that those stories contain falsities or disinformation, as a "sometimes disagree" situation. I've listed some examples in the discussion section. Based on the multiple criticism of ANI for recorded and documented misinformation, reducing it to ANI vs another website is in itself misleading. - Naushervan (talk) 04:42, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- No, that was a reflection of WP:USEBYOTHERS "The more widespread and consistent this use is, the stronger the evidence." The variety and standing of multiple media venues (BBC, Reuters, et al) having accepted and used ANI demonstrates general respect; so does the many WP usages. The reputation, WEIGHT, and substance seems clear. I'm thinking it it vastly outweighs where above Altnews had criticisms of inaccuracy in some tweets. Not that altnews is without credit, though it also has detractors, but those cites just don't seem substantive enough for RS criticisms and tweets do not reflect all venues of ANI reporting. Option 2 -- it seems obviously reputable in the industry but as always consider in context of the specific piece and usage for the cite. I would always caution on opinion pieces or first-tweets and caution for ANI over BJP or pieces -- just as I would caution using Altnews.in and their criticisms or ideological differences with ANI. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 16:55, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
- Markbassett, can I ask you how did you come to the conclusion that it is used by the sources you are referring to here; "BBC, Reuter, et al"?
- For instance, of the thousands of articles that can be found on the BBC News website, there are four reports which mention Asian News International, none of which are based on ANI's reporting itself and its most prominent appearance is in a reports on ANI's role in the disinformation campaign. That is neither use, let alone widespread and in addition constitutes negative coverage. Tayi Arajakate Talk 17:49, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
- No, that was a reflection of WP:USEBYOTHERS "The more widespread and consistent this use is, the stronger the evidence." The variety and standing of multiple media venues (BBC, Reuters, et al) having accepted and used ANI demonstrates general respect; so does the many WP usages. The reputation, WEIGHT, and substance seems clear. I'm thinking it it vastly outweighs where above Altnews had criticisms of inaccuracy in some tweets. Not that altnews is without credit, though it also has detractors, but those cites just don't seem substantive enough for RS criticisms and tweets do not reflect all venues of ANI reporting. Option 2 -- it seems obviously reputable in the industry but as always consider in context of the specific piece and usage for the cite. I would always caution on opinion pieces or first-tweets and caution for ANI over BJP or pieces -- just as I would caution using Altnews.in and their criticisms or ideological differences with ANI. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 16:55, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
- It's disingenuous to describe ANI withdrawing stories after an IFCN accredited fact-checker like Altnews (or for that matter Boomlive) point out that those stories contain falsities or disinformation, as a "sometimes disagree" situation. I've listed some examples in the discussion section. Based on the multiple criticism of ANI for recorded and documented misinformation, reducing it to ANI vs another website is in itself misleading. - Naushervan (talk) 04:42, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- Tayi Arajakate The USEBYOTHERS criteria for RS was pointed to by GSS, and I note their link to Reuters prominent is in their article and mentioned online and the BBC mention of them as India's largest wire service. I did see BBC usage attribute parts of stories to ANI at a couple [90], e.g. here, and here although usually BBC has its own reporters and uses Getty images. You can also google other newspaper online sites make what seems similar usage at NY Times, Washington Post The Sun, The London Times, The Toronto Star, The Globe and Mail, The Australian, USA Today, and so forth as one might expect from a wire service covering India. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 19:03, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you for clarifying. I would like to point out a few things though. Reuters itself provides a disclaimer that it has no involvement in ANI's editorial operation. BBC has a fairly large coverage and audience in India, and does use local news services, it has hundreds of reports which make use of Press Trust of India, as opposed to around 3 reports with barebones use of ANI within them. The overall usage in the rest of the sources is also similar "once in a blue moon", that too seems to be mostly for quoting officials.
- WP:UBO states that "widespread citation without comment for facts is evidence of a source's reputation and reliability for similar facts, whereas widespread doubts about reliability weigh against it." Here we do have doubts on its reliability which are published in the very same sources and are its most prominent appearances in those sources. But if you still think that it fulfills UBO, then I wouldn't argue further and leave it at this. Tayi Arajakate Talk 21:13, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
- Tayi Arajakate The USEBYOTHERS criteria for RS was pointed to by GSS, and I note their link to Reuters prominent is in their article and mentioned online and the BBC mention of them as India's largest wire service. I did see BBC usage attribute parts of stories to ANI at a couple [90], e.g. here, and here although usually BBC has its own reporters and uses Getty images. You can also google other newspaper online sites make what seems similar usage at NY Times, Washington Post The Sun, The London Times, The Toronto Star, The Globe and Mail, The Australian, USA Today, and so forth as one might expect from a wire service covering India. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 19:03, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
- Option 1: ANI articles are often quoted/republished by other reliable sources. It is sometimes a bit biased but nevertheless it can be used for facts.— Vaibhavafro 💬 04:11, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- Option 1: ANI is one of the largest news agencies in Asia, and a reputed one at that with scores of subscribers both within the country (India) and outside thereof. So much so that the very thought of certifying it as otherwise is beyond me and totally uncalled for. One or two instances, if any, of erroneous reporting prove nothing. One could find the same for even the renowned New York Times, but that wouldn't make it unreliable. Like the below section would show and as I said on the talk page of the article in question too, the very portals being used to disparage and descredit this reputed agency (the likes of wire, quint et alia) have a poor standing, and have often been deemed ideologically biased and unreliable on RSN itself in the past.[91] Regards, MBlaze Lightning 08:19, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- MBlaze Lightning, there have been no significant discussions on the reliability of The Wire or The Quint on this noticeboard nor have their reporting been used to make claim about the reliability of Asian News International. The link you provided constitutes a singular opinion on The Wire and The Quint where an editor claims that they are reliable but biased. The Quint article cited to here refers to a report of EU DisinfoLab, which is the same as the one referred to in the BBC News article.
- On a side note, Webqoof, the fact checking division of The Quint is affiliated to the International Fact-Checking Network (RSP entry) for which there is consensus that it is generally reliable for determining the reliability of fact checking organisations. Tayi Arajakate Talk 10:26, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- Option 1 Entirely reliable source. Very few instances highlighted by newly born rivaling media outlets are irrelevant. Meanwhile, the long established worldwide media outlets treat ANI as a very reliable source. You can find petty criticism about just any media. NavjotSR (talk) 14:59, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- Option 4 I repeat WalrusJi. BBC and Caravan are not newly born. TrangaBellam (talk) 15:12, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3 or 4, leaning towards the latter. Fact checking organisations have already documented frequent instances of fabricated stories, its independence is compromised due to its close association with the Indian government in a country where freedom of press is at a critical situation (it ranks #142, below Myanmar and not far from Russia) and add to it the EU DisinfoLab report's implication that it is a conduit for amplifying disinformation from fake news outlets of the Srivastava Group. There are instances where it has gone as far as to re-published op-eds from outlets that don't exist, attributed to people who deny having written them.
- Frankly, having observed the various arguments till now, I couldn't see anything convincing that suggests it is reliable other than what I presume to be attempts at disregarding its coverage in reliable sources? They are apparently very reputed internationally, yet search results tied to major international news publication don't yield much. One of the predominant results is in fact, coverage of the EU DisinfoLab findings framed as revelations by said international news publications,[1][2][3] which refer to "its content [being] reproduced on more than 500 fake media websites across 95 countries".[4] Tayi Arajakate Talk 18:41, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
References
- ^ Sénécat, Adrein (9 December 2020). "Une vaste campagne de désinformation et d'influence indienne en Europe dévoilée". Le Monde (in French). Retrieved 2021-01-30.
- ^ Rej, Abhijnan (10 December 2020). "EU Non-Profit Unearths Massive Indian Disinformation Campaign". The Diplomat. Retrieved 30 January 2021.
- ^ Butt, Ahsan I. (4 January 2021). "Has a 'fifth generation war' started between India and Pakistan?". Al Jazeera. Retrieved 30 January 2021.
- ^ Menon, Shruti; Hussain, Abid (10 December 2020). "The dead professor and the vast pro-India disinformation campaign". BBC News. Retrieved 30 January 2021.
- Option 1 per above and WP:USEBYOTHERS. A very credible news agency in India whose articles are being used by reliable newspapers as pointed out by some users above. --- FitIndia Talk Admin on Commons 08:18, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3 or 4 The evidence presented above such as the BBC article means that it is clearly not a reliable source on anything to do with Pakistan. Arguments presented in favour of its reliability are not convincing, and rely on appeals to authority. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:12, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3. (a) I am not swayed by the WP:USEBYOTHERS argument. The other venues that are "using" ANI don't know any better. ANI is a newsfeed that the lesser papers without their own repoters are compelled to use so that they can fill pages and keep up with their competition. These lesser papers are not high-quality sources for us anyway. And, there is no dearth of high-quality sources in India, like The Hindu, The Statesman etc. There is no harm in forcing the editors to go out and look for them instead of picking the first thing that pops up on a Google search. (b) The biggest problem with the Indian news media right now is the huge government propaganda machinery, coupled with threats, intimidation, arm-twisting, imprisonment, lawsuits etc. etc. In this context, a source that has a proven track record of peddling government point of view should be avoided at all costs. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:45, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 1 I haven't seen any argument against WP:USEBYOTHERS so far. It is clearly much more credible and reliable than the petty critics cited here. "BBC" is certainly criticized so much in the last 30 years that ANI does not even come close to that criticism. It will require broad agreement within WP:RS that the source isn't reliable if we are going to select any other option than resorting to cherrypicking from partisan sources. Azuredivay (talk) 06:12, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- The argument against WP:USEBYOTHERS is that it isn’t. WP:RS simply don’t seem to use them. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:09, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 1 or 2 - according to the BBC, a network unrelated to ANI was set up as an information operation. The BBC continues,
"There is no evidence the network is linked to India's government, but it relies heavily on amplifying content produced on fake media outlets with the help of Asian News International (ANI) - India's largest wire service and a key focus of the investigation."
ANI is an aggregator, and its services may be misused, but the problem is not with ANI itself, and instead with materials that were posted to it. You can't take down the largest news aggregator from a country of a billion people because articles that ended up being posted there were part of an information operation. -Darouet (talk) 16:43, 5 February 2021 (UTC) - Option 4, I am swayed by the argument of Walrus Ji, it is clear to me that this source deliberately publishes false information, and functions more as a propaganda sheet that an actual news source, and as such it should be deprecated. Devonian Wombat (talk) 01:34, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 1 It's certainly one of the largest news agencies in Asia as MBlaze said, and no plausible argument, having a basis in policy, has been put forward against WP:USEBYOTHERS for consideration. ANI's reach isn't limited to India or for that matter Asia, it "
provides footage and editorial content to foreign news channels and agencies,...and is often the only source of footage and news from India's neighbours...
Indian channels also rely on ANI feeds for the domestic stories that they are unable to cover, thereby making it the single largest source of news footage for an Indian channel. In fact,a major proportion of subcontinental footage telecast on foreign news channels such as the BBC, CNN, CNBC, NHK, etc. is provided by ANI, which also provides complete daily news bulletins and current affairs programmes to various ethnic channels operating in Europe, the US and other countries where the South Asian diaspora is present
".[92] Such a high quality agency simply cannot be deemed unreliable by any stretch of the imagination under WP:RS. Also, what Darouet said. Zakaria ښه راغلاست (talk) 01:53, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
Discussion (Asian News International)
ANI has been documented by multiple international sources peddling fake news [1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8]. Searching for ANI in RSN search box gives tonnes of results with links of Administrator Noticeboard Incidents, and those results are useless.--Walrus Ji (talk) 14:26, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
References
- ^ "ANI - A tale of inadvertent errors and oversights". Alt News. 21 October 2018. Retrieved 28 January 2021.
- ^ "The dead professor and the vast pro-India disinformation campaign". BBC News. 10 December 2020. Retrieved 28 January 2021.
- ^ Staff, Scroll. "What the EU NGO report claiming to have uncovered a 15-year Indian disinformation campaign tells us". Scroll.in. Retrieved 28 January 2021.
- ^ "Noida police accuse ANI of 'fake news' for adding Tablighi Jamaat angle to Covid-19 quarantine exercise". Newslaundry. Retrieved 28 January 2021.
- ^ Webqoof, Team (10 December 2020). "ANI Boosted Huge Global Network of Fake Media Websites: Study". TheQuint. Retrieved 28 January 2021.
- ^ Staff, J. K. R. (8 April 2020). "ANI caught spreading fake news on Tablighi Jamaat, news agency faces social media roasting after Noida Police's extraordinary tweet". Janta Ka Reporter 2.0. Retrieved 28 January 2021.
- ^ Caravan, The. "ANI, Srivastava Group named in massive EU disinformation campaign to promote Modi government's interests". The Caravan. Retrieved 28 January 2021.
- ^ Chattopadhyay, Aditi (8 April 2020). "Accused Of Misquoting, Spreading Fake News By Noida DCP, News Agency ANI Issues Correction". thelogicalindian.com.
- A number of the sources listed here are themselves questionable with respect to reliability. Are there reputable international news sources that discuss ANI? Acousmana (talk) 15:29, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- EU Disinfo has a fairly detailed report on ANI's role in targeting international institutions with disinformation. Within the Indian context, Caravan has a detailed report on indications of pro-government bias by ANI. IFCN accredited fact checkers like AltNews and Boomlive have extensive instances of ANI circulating fake news in the Indian context: see. e.g, fake news about the Balakot airstrike, misinformation on Covid-19 protocols that was refuted publicly by the Noida Police, fake news about a train accident, used to target political opposition, and a Livemint report on ANI's repeated fake news regarding Indian military operations, resulting in veterans' associations publicly denouncing ANI, ANI using its own employees for staged interviews on demonetisation. - Naushervan (talk) 04:46, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
- The list above seems not really serious RS criticisms, and mostly repeats of just two incidents. That (1) is about a first-report tweet quoted an eyewitness and later had to correct that it was a spokesperson... is demonstrating responsible journalism. The (2) is about India Chronicles - not ANI - but says ANI was pro-Indian (no surprise) and repeated the unstated material - and (3), (5), and (7) are same story ? Then Tablighi Jamaat (4) that someone complained ANI first tweet had misquoted them so ANI removed the tweet and corrected it, again seems decent response - and (6) that twitter then roasted them over it is no surprise; and (8) notes that retraction occurrred. That out of thousands of stories so few and minor are the issues held up as wrong speaks favorably of ANI. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 17:17, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
- Based on the exhaustive discussion above and taking into account of few instances of accusations of various sources whose own reliability comes under questioning at various occasions, as few instances highlighted by newly born rivalling media outlets are irrelevant.. And also considering high number of citations of ANI by other media houses against WP:USEBYOTHERS. ANI is generally reliable to use as [WP:RS]] DavidWood11 (talk) 08:52, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
RFC : The American Conservative
Which of the following best describes the reliability of The American Conservative?
- Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting
- Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
- Option 3: Generally unreliable for factual reporting
- Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated as in the 2017 RfC of the Daily Mail
John Cummings (talk) 23:49, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
Opinions (The American Conservative)
- Option 4: The American Conservative has published several articles which include largely fabricated or false information on trans people. Articles include; Trans conspiracy theories: The Insanity Of Transgenderism,When They Come For Your Kid, Not Just A Tattoo: Transgenderism Attacks Our Fundamental Humanity, Trans Totalitarianism & Your Children, A Pro-Trans, Anti-Parent Conspiracy, The Transgender Craze Is Creating Thousands Of Young Victims, Leaving The Trans Cult. These articles also appear to fit within the UK (where I live) legal definition of a hate crime. Jewish conspiracy theories Does George Soros Want Revolution In Europe?, Beware Of George Soros’ Trojan Horse Prosecutors. Climate change conspiracy theories: On Wildfires And Climate Change, ‘The Science’ Got In The Way Of The Science John Cummings (talk) 23:57, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- I fail to see what's anti-Semitic about either of those Soros articles. Just mentioning his name? Pelirojopajaro (talk) 11:41, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- We've already had an RfC on this last September, see Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_312#RfC:_The_American_Conservative which was well attended and never closed. Please check the archives before opening RfC's. Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:59, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks @Hemiauchenia:, I did check the archives and somehow missed it. What is the process for this since it was closed with no decision being made? Does that mean I can continue the discussion here? Should I transclude the previous discussion into this one? John Cummings (talk) 00:05, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- @John Cummings: I think the best thing to do is close this RfC and place a closure request for the previous RfC at WP:RFCLOSE. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:11, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks @Hemiauchenia:, do you think there is enough discussion there to make a decision? I would be very happy to spend time encouraging people to take part in the discussion however its archived and cannot be edited. Is it alllowed in the rules that additional discussion take place here and the two be considered together? This one as a continuation of the other. John Cummings (talk) 00:18, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- @John Cummings: I think the best thing to do is close this RfC and place a closure request for the previous RfC at WP:RFCLOSE. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:11, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- Note that TAC is already listed at WP:RSP (the perennial sources list)... it is deemed OK to cite for attributed statements of opinion, but not OK for unattributed statements of fact. We can discuss CHANGING that designation if you want, but you might run into NOTCENSORED resistance. Blueboar (talk) 00:14, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- @John Cummings: Looking at your last example [95] - could you explain which statements in that article you regard as "Climate change conspiracy theories", and why? Regards, HaeB (talk) 06:21, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- @John Cummings: Regarding Jewish conspiracy theories, how does a criticism of Soros automatically become a conspiracy theory? Alaexis¿question? 14:28, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
Is George Soros undermining European national sovereignty
and "Activists like Soros—whose organizations share part of the blame for encouraging migrants to come to Europe and lobby Europeans to regard borders and sovereignty as things of the past—are trying to rip off our birth right to sovereignty and stigmatize people by accusing them of upholding an outmoded Christian identity.
" are almost word-for-word the conspiracy theories described [here] - the idea that he is somehow funding and causing immigration in an effort to undermine white western Christendom. --Aquillion (talk) 21:58, 2 February 2021 (UTC)- This is your interpretation. The TAC article doesn't mention Soros's ethnicity and criticises his support of migration. Soros himself said that "[his foundation's] plan treats the protection of refugees as the objective and national borders as the obstacle" ([96]), so what exactly is inaccurate there? Alaexis¿question? 13:22, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Secret option 5 Why would you use it? It has a strong self-declared political bias and consists of opinion and news-pinion. The news-pinion will be covered with an attempt at neutrality elsewhere, so AC should not be used for that. Its opinion pieces might be ok for the opinion of the writer, but the writers are not particularly notable, so probably not useful. If Henry Kissinger writes a piece for them entitled "Why I love my Throne of Skulls" it could possibly have a place on the throne of skulls or Henry Kissinger articles. Boynamedsue (talk) 14:58, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- Yup. We already limit the use of TAC to situations where we are discussing a contributor’s opinion, and there are limited situations where discussing a contributor’s opinion would be appropriate. However, IN those rare situations, it is absolutely ok to cite TAC to support a statement as to what those opinions actually are. We would be using TAC as a primary source for the opinion. Blueboar (talk) 15:13, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- Good to know. I would also say that (IMO) we should not consider being published in TAC as rendering an opinion notable, and therefore worthy of inclusion. The writer should be already notable for some other reason. Boynamedsue (talk) 15:19, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- Yup. We already limit the use of TAC to situations where we are discussing a contributor’s opinion, and there are limited situations where discussing a contributor’s opinion would be appropriate. However, IN those rare situations, it is absolutely ok to cite TAC to support a statement as to what those opinions actually are. We would be using TAC as a primary source for the opinion. Blueboar (talk) 15:13, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- 4 or 5 per John Cummings and Boynamedsue. Gamaliel (talk) 15:30, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- Bad RfC. It's an opinion magazine and opinions are allowed from any source, WP:NOTCENSORED. Whether they're due is none of the business of this noticeboard since WP:DUE is part of WP:NPOV and since every article has a talk page where editors may discuss in context. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 16:12, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- I agree that there are two steps here, but it does publish news articles from a conservative perspective like this one. Therefore the RfC is valid.Boynamedsue (talk) 17:49, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
It's an opinion magazine and opinions are allowed from any source
. This is completely untrue and I'm baffled that editors keep thinking it is - review WP:RSOPINION.Some sources may be considered reliable for statements as to their author's opinion, but not for statements asserted as fact. ... A prime example of this is opinion pieces in sources recognized as reliable.
Citing an opinion to, for example, a Reddit thread or a Twitter post by someone who is not a verified subject-matter expert would generally be unacceptable; beyond that, the wording of RSOPINION makes it clear that opinion reliability is a separate standard of reliability that has its own requirements, not a universal license to use any opinion from anywhere. Anything cited via RSOPINION must still meet the basic WP:RS requirements for fact-checking, accuracy, and editorial controls; the requirements are looser in that case, not nonexistent. WP:SELFPUB stuff is not normally usable even via RSOPINION - some degree of fact-checking, accuracy, and reputation is still required. --Aquillion (talk) 21:49, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- Ted Koppel explains it well...there's a big question mark about objectivity in journalism today. Atsme 💬 📧 23:33, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- What I wrote is correct. It is required by the policy I cited, it is not refuted by the guideline that Aquillion points at, it is extremely common to cite blogs tweets etc. without pretence that they must be reliable for facts when they're not stating facts. Of course there is no universal licence to use any opinion from anywhere, nor did anyone say so, because any edit must meet other guidelines and policies, but desire to suppress a publication is not a guideline or policy. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 23:32, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- WP:DUE states, "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." Because due weight depends on reliability, it is still necessary to assess the reliability of sources when evaluating due weight. This noticeboard is the appropriate venue for assessing reliability. WP:NOTCENSORED states, "Content will be removed if it is judged to violate Wikipedia policies", and both WP:V and WP:DUE are policies that enforce reliability. — Newslinger talk 14:00, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- Maybe you missed that WP:RS is not a policy so it can't trump policy (nor can essay-class pages), and maybe you didn't click the link in what you referred to which says the appropriateness of any source depends on the context and "Other reliable sources include: ... magazines", maybe you can't understand that when we say Sam-said-X we're not saying X is fact, and maybe you've forgotten how you repeatedly insisted that Daily Mail opinions were unacceptable, until a closer of the relevant RfC shot that down. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:43, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- Verifiability, due weight, and consensus are all policies. Invoking WP:NOTCENSORED is not going to justify the inclusion of material that is unverifiable, undue, or against consensus. No idea what the Daily Mail (RSP entry) has to do with this. — Newslinger talk 15:07, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- Maybe you missed that WP:RS is not a policy so it can't trump policy (nor can essay-class pages), and maybe you didn't click the link in what you referred to which says the appropriateness of any source depends on the context and "Other reliable sources include: ... magazines", maybe you can't understand that when we say Sam-said-X we're not saying X is fact, and maybe you've forgotten how you repeatedly insisted that Daily Mail opinions were unacceptable, until a closer of the relevant RfC shot that down. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:43, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- WP:DUE states, "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." Because due weight depends on reliability, it is still necessary to assess the reliability of sources when evaluating due weight. This noticeboard is the appropriate venue for assessing reliability. WP:NOTCENSORED states, "Content will be removed if it is judged to violate Wikipedia policies", and both WP:V and WP:DUE are policies that enforce reliability. — Newslinger talk 14:00, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 5 / Option 1 with the reminder that we can use WP:BIASEDSOURCES. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:04, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 4 per the above; publishes false or fabricated information intended to advance conspiracy theories. Not usable under RSOPINION (outside of the standard WP:SELFPUB exceptions that would allow someone to be cited anywhere, eg. treat it like a Reddit post) since its efforts to push fact-free conspiracy theories show a lack of editorial control even there and fail the standard that RSOPINION requires. Opinions from it should be cited only via a secondary source and never solely by a cite to it directly. Fact-free conspiratorial red-meat websites aren't usable as sources in any context - as others have said, how is this different than eg. Occupy Democrats? How does the fact that the American Ideas Institute created a magazine and website to pour their opinions into automatically make them more noteworthy than if they were posting them on Facebook or in the comments section of YouTube videos? As WP:RS says,
Anyone can create a personal web page, self-publish a book, or claim to be an expert
; there's plenty of reason above to consider them useless as a source, and I'm not seeing any reason they'd be usable beyond "they call themselves a magazine". --Aquillion (talk) 21:58, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
- I'd say Option 2, it is obviously a conservative source, the articles you linked are opinionated giving an argument. See what NewsGuardTech browser extension says. Aasim (talk) 23:18, 2 February 2021 (UTC)
This RfC was closed because the previous RfC was not, which seems like an odd reason. There are contributions in the previous RfC which might justly be copied here, or the authors pinged, but there is also new information linked above. It seems to me to be prudent to finisah this RfC so we have a definitive result. Guy (help! - typo?) 11:37, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 4. In general I would go with "option 3" for opinion-only sources, but in this case TAC is beyond just opinion-only. This isn't about a "crony capitalism" section that studiously avoids criticising any Republican until they speak out against Donald Trump, it's about systematic factual and intellectual dishonesty. There are dozens of stories peddling the Big Lie ([97]). Last time TAC was discussed we did not have such a convenient litmus test for politically motivated dishonesty - now we do. Guy (help! - typo?) 11:37, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 2 I'm amazed how deprecation is slowly but surely turning from a sensible policy of excluding a few sources peddling lies intentionally to silencing everyone who deviates from the current mainstream - whether to the left or to the right. Surely, a lot of sources are flawed, but what about relying on editors to make decisions for a given source in a given context?
- Speaking of TAC, the current consensus at WP:RSP is to use it for attributed opinions. No examples of problems caused by this policy have been provided, so it's not clear why policy change is needed. Having different opinions about Soros or trans people is not a sufficient reason. Alaexis¿question? 13:08, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 2 Agree with Blueboar, Springee, Emir of Wikipedia etc from the previous discussion. It is a useful source. Common sense should be used to decide what use to make of it on a case by case basis. Burrobert (talk) 13:35, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 4 known for conspiracy theories, as I stated earlier. When it is pushing the baseless election fraud claims it should be clear that the outlet isn't interested in coverage consistent with facts or reality. (t · c) buidhe 14:03, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 4 given the points raised by the nominator, Aquillion and Guy. Yes, we're probably having to deprecate more than we thought we would years ago, but that's just a consequence of the modern media landscape. What matters is whether deprecation makes sense on a case-by-case basis, and it does here. XOR'easter (talk) 14:08, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 4 - conspiracy theories and fabrication. If people feel too many deprecations are happening, the cure is for people to use less sewer-quality sources in Wikipedia; until then, we have to actually say "no, you can't use sewer-quality sources" - David Gerard (talk) 14:55, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Comment - this is not a proper RfC as it was not setup correctly. Additionally, what has changed since the last time this topic was discussed? Has something new happened that makes the previous RfC (something like 6 months back?) invalid? If not, why haven't previous participants been notified? Springee (talk) 22:24, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 2 Clearly usable with attribution per WP:RSOPINION. This is just the latest attempt by certain editors to ban sources that express opinions that either make them feel uncomfortable or they just don't like. It is more than okay to present an alternative viewpoint on "climate change". I'm sick of people here making the argument that you can't say that because there is a "consensus", so if you go against consensus then you spreading misinformation or a conspiracy theory. Anyone who says that doesn't understand what a consensus is, consensus is not unanimous or even near unanimous agreement. Here's an interesting "fact check" on climate change consensus [98] And labeling criticism of George Soros as "Jewish conspiracy theories" just because he happens to be Jewish is disingenuous. And I'm not even going to weigh in on the transgender issues debate, other than to say its very controversial.--Rusf10 (talk) 04:22, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- Forbes contributors are not reliable sources. (t · c) buidhe 05:18, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- As per WP:RSP
unless the article was written by a subject-matter expert
. The article is written by Earl J. Ritchie whose bio appears at the end of the article. He is more than qualified to speak on the subject both due to his job experience and the fact that he teaches at the third largest university in Texas.--Rusf10 (talk) 15:56, 5 February 2021 (UTC)- Rusf10, "Earl J. Ritchie, Lecturer, Department of Construction Management".
- So, not a subject matter expert. And no, it is not OK to present as fact an alternative to the scientific consensus view on climate change. The "two sides" are not science and the politically motivated anti-science bullshit of climate change dneialism. The scientific consensus, by definition, encompasses all legitimate evidence-based perspectives, and any "balance" to that is WP:FALSEBALANCE, as I am sure you understand. Guy (help! - typo?) 12:44, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- As per WP:RSP
- Forbes contributors are not reliable sources. (t · c) buidhe 05:18, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 2 Looks like a source that is largely analysis and opinion. That means most of the time it probably won't get cited or would have to be attributed. Option 2 doesn't establish that the source would have weight one way or the other on any topic. Running contrarian opinion articles doesn't mean the source should be excluded from use. We really need to spend less time looking at the source in general and more time asking if a particular article is appropriate for supporting a particular claim/statement in a wikipedia article. We should do less of this generalization stuff.
Springee (talk) 17:55, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Options 3-4 Confirmed to have pushed baseless conspiracy theories that were already debunked by mainstream media. —PaleoNeonate – 07:49, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
Option 4 I don't even think this one needs explaining. Even the internal wiki article The_American_Conservative gives the sole needed reason for why this should be deprecated. In an ideal world, at least 95% of the opinions should lean towards option 4 here.Magnus Dominus (talk) 22:43, 7 February 2021 (UTC)— Magnus Dominus (talk • contribs) is a confirmed sock puppet of Lordpermaximum (talk • contribs).- Option 3 (actually none of the options, this is an opinion magazine) The RFC doesn't apply here. The American Conservative is very clearly an opinion magazine publishing the views of contributors. It does not claim to be a news source. There are many such opinion magazines (Jacobin for example, or the Forbes contributors) and we never use them to cite facts. It can be useful if we want to cite the opinion of a particular author and attribute it to them, so I would oppose deprecating it. However, it should never be used as a news source.--DreamLinker (talk) 15:47, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3+. This is used as a source nearly 400 times on Wikipedia.[99] As an opinion publication, it should only be used for opinions where they are due. As a fringe publication, it would rarely be considered due. As a source for facts, it should be actively discouraged as it has a track record of conspiracy theories and denialist positions. Because it has a few notable contributors whose opinions might occassionally be due, I would not vote for deprecation, although I am almost tempted to because it is used too many times on Wikipedia as a source for facts (on topics as varied as Anabaptism, John Rawls and ) Calvin and Hobbes) because of the superficial sheen of respectability. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:54, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 2. The American Conservative doesn't attempt to hide its political bias, but that doesn't mean that we should deprecate it. It looks reliable enough to include in articles (as attributed opinions), and I don't see any sort of allegations that the magazine is fabricating what it attempts to present as objective news. The articles that John Cummings present are clearly opinion pieces, and I don't think any of us would reason that their having a belief that transgender medical interventions in children is suboptimal is a reason for us to deprecate the source as we have done to the Daily Mail. We certainly should not use this source as if it are presenting objective, disinterested coverage of topics, and this source should not be used for sourcing extraordinary claims, but I don't see anything wrong with using this for attributed per WP:RSOPINION given that the magazine really isn't fabricating facts and it doesn't appear to teeter on the edge of doing that. Claiming that a particular set of mechanisms for supporting transgender children is bad on moral/philosophical grounds (especially in the case of Rod Dreher) can't be considered a "fabrication" or the production of "false information" unless we are going to extend our notions thereof to moral claims altogether, which is something we generally avoid doing on wikipedia due to WP:NPOV.
- I believe a brief description of the contents of a few of the articles listed by John Cummings might help to shed a little more light on this. The first article, The Insanity Of Transgenderism, is an opinion piece by Rod Dreher that basically breaks down to a criticism of political correctness in a particular pro-LGBT group's report (Dreher writes, "
So, 'human rights' now entails referring to a woman’s genitalia as a 'front hole.' The 'vagina' is the result of having your penis amputated
".) The second article, When They Come For Your Kid, is a piece by Dreher that expresses discontent with the widespread acceptance of the use of puberty blockers in children. In the third article, The Transgender Craze Is Creating Thousands Of Young Victims, is a piece by another author that argues that too many young girls are receiving puberty blockers and that this is being facilitated by public policy (particularly education policies in California) and social media. In the fourth piece, Trans Totalitarianism & Your Children, Dreher (gushingly) profiles the work and beliefs of the Kelsey Coalition and states his belief that gender transition discussions have become a sort of "third rail" in American policits. In the fifth article, Dreher (starting to notice a pattern here) highlights a particular school district's policies that make it very difficult for parents to find out that their children are considering a transition or report symptoms gender dysphoria to the school. (Dreher does allege conspiracy, though it's literally because he's alleging that the school district is setting up a system to obscure information from parents, and it appears to actually have some factual basis). I could go through more, but it would take a lot of time. The headlines are edgy, but the content of these sorts of articles doesn't actually reflect any sort of effort to fabricate false information and publish it. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 08:42, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 4: "trans totalitarianism" is particularly crazy, and the Soros stuff is noxious as well. Clearly pushes unbalanced conspiracy theories. Noteduck (talk) 05:36, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 2: On the rare occassion that I read something on that site, it's nearly always by Jim Bovard and it's quite good: [100] [101]. The Shooting of Duncan Lemp page would be much better off with his articles. I can't speak for the other stuff. Pelirojopajaro (talk) 10:43, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3 An opinion magazine, so generally unreliable for factual reporting. I don't agree with John Cummings that this site produces material that could be called a 'hate crime' as there aren't Hostile or violent incidents because of [one's] transgender identity [that] are known as transphobic hate incidents. Regards, Willbb234Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 15:43, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 2. Should generally only be used for opinions per WP:RSOPINION. The examples given by John Cummings are not examples of incorrect factual statements but rather opinions that John Cummings disagrees with, so they cannot be called fabrications. The bias of the source does not make it universally unreliable per WP:BIASEDSOURCE. Jancarcu (talk) 20:43, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 2 It seems like most people are voting to depreciate over some clickbait headlines. Has anyone provided examples where RSs have debunked or discredited TAC? Surely, if they have a history of promoting conspiracy theories or falsehoods, then we would at least have one fact-check from Snopes, PolitiFact, The Washington Post, Factcheck.org, or any other big name fact-checker. As of now, I would treat them the same as The National Review--so basically WP:RSOPINION applies. Also, I would show extreme caution for using TAC to support contentious claims to a BLP (even with attribution). Dr. Swag Lord (talk) 07:49, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
Discussion (The American Conservative)
- See for example Voter Fraud Happened, But This Fight Is Over, published Jan 6. "Evidence abounds that the game was rigged, and the courts clearly failed us". That is wilfully dishonest, as anyone who has read the court filings will be aware. "The woke media—a media too corrupt to print, during the presidential campaign, stories of the Biden family’s years of corruption—was oh, so uninterested in the statistical disparities in voting that clearly indicated election fraud". See also Biden–Ukraine conspiracy theory. The "statistical disparities" which "clearly indicated voter fraud" have been analysed in detail and are down to obvious errors like assuming that each incoming set of ballot declarations will be statistically identical, when we knew months in advance that in-person and absentee ballots would represent very different demographics. Put simply, supporting the Big Lie is prima facie evidence of disqualifying bias-based unreliability. Guy (help! - typo?) 12:14, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- See also The Battle for France and Denmark’s Intifada, two article by Paul Belien supporting the Eurabia conspiracy-theory. Visite fortuitement prolongée (talk) 22:03, 4 February 2021 (UTC)
- To give an example of content from TAC that might be useful for Wikipedia: [102]. Its author (Roger Scruton) is notable and his opinion provides a valuable perspective. I don't see why it should not be used in Wikipedia. Alaexis¿question? 10:33, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- In what article might you use it? Blueboar (talk) 12:59, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- Skyline or Roof pitch probably. Alaexis¿question? 14:10, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- Alaexis, not really, no. He wasn't an architect, so his opinions on architecture and urban planning would only be valid if he was noted as a commentator on those (as was, for example, John Betjemen, founding author of Private Eye's "Nooks And Corners"). Guy (help! - typo?) 12:51, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- He's sufficiently notable as a commentator of urban planning to be written about by The National Review [103], Spectator [104] and criticised by The Guardian [105]. Alaexis¿question? 13:44, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Alaexis, not really, no. He wasn't an architect, so his opinions on architecture and urban planning would only be valid if he was noted as a commentator on those (as was, for example, John Betjemen, founding author of Private Eye's "Nooks And Corners"). Guy (help! - typo?) 12:51, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Skyline or Roof pitch probably. Alaexis¿question? 14:10, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
- In what article might you use it? Blueboar (talk) 12:59, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
The Volunteer (book)
The Volunteer (book) was written by British journalist Jack Fairweather and published by a popular (not academic) press, WH Allen. Is it a reliable source?
I know of only one scholarly review of the book, in which Michael Fleming states:[1]
the dominant narrative about Pilecki in Poland is a myth. The legend includes the claims that Pilecki “volunteered” to be imprisoned at Auschwitz, that he was particularly concerned with reporting on the fate of Jews at the camp, and that it was the Polish Communist authorities alone who were responsible for suppressing his story. In The Volunteer, journalist Jack Fairweather presents some, but not all, of the features of the Pilecki myth to English-speaking readers.
Partly mythical is just not good enough for basic WP:RS expectations, let alone antisemitism in Poland topic area. Fleming also states:
Fairweather’s problematic title signals the main weakness of the book, as does its first sentence, which endorses the dominant narrative of the Pilecki myth: “Witold Pilecki volunteered to be imprisoned in Auschwitz.”... [Fairweather] does not address the tension between the myth of the sincere volunteer and the evidence that pressure and manipulation were at play. It should also be noted that those arrested could not choose their place of imprisonment. The most one can say is that Pilecki was pressured to allow himself to be arrested in the hope of being sent to a camp.
I also found a scholarly article about Pilecki in the peer reviewed journal Zagłada Żydów. Studia i Materiały, written a few years before the book was published. Historian Ewa Cuber-Strutyńska states:
As a consequence, in the case of the “volunteer to Auschwitz”, the commonly used expression only partially corresponds with the facts.As already noted, one cannot fully recognise Pilecki as the promoter of the idea to enter Auschwitz and start underground activities there on the basis of source materials. Furthermore, it appears from the materials that the form and circumstances in which Pilecki was assigned the task did not give him many possibilities of refusal. In no way does it diminish his heroism and achievements but only shows that the term “volunteer” in the context of those events is used inaccurately. Using the expression “volunteer to Auschwitz”, one must bear in mind that Pilecki could not be certain that he would be sent precisely to Auschwitz after the September manhunt.[2]
Nevertheless, my edits are reverted by Volunteer Marek and GizzyCatBella and our Wikipedia article still incorrectly identifies Pilecki as a "volunteer". (t · c) buidhe 09:59, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Perhaps it's worth discussing whether the book The Volunteer (book) is reliable or not (though the answer to that seems obvious - it is) but I'm not sure why this particular issue is being brought to WP:RSN since the disagreement has nothing to do with the reliability of sources but rather it's question of straight up WP:UNDUE. Fleming is reliable, but presenting a couple quotes completely devoid of context and plumped willy nilly into a section that has nothing to do with them is at best bad practice stylistically and likely to confuse a reader who is not already familiar with the subject. There is an academic disagreement here over whether Pilecki "volunteered" or whether he "received an order and as a soldier obeyed it" but the the way the quote is presented insinuates that the entire story of Pilecki getting himself captured in order to get sent to Auschwitz is "a myth" (obviously it's not and no source questions that). Volunteer Marek 16:07, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Again, the issue is not sources but WP:UNDUE and a misleading presentation of selected quotes. Volunteer Marek 20:00, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- And Fairweather does meet the criteria. Are you saying that he or his publishers are not “reputable”? Volunteer Marek 20:01, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- The requirement is to be "academically focused books by reputable publishers". I've seen no evidence that the book is academically focused, or that the publisher has a reputation for publishing accurate books about Polish history. (t · c) buidhe 20:07, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Indeed, Fleming states that "Fairweather reduces the “cast of characters,” oversimplifying in order to advance the narrative in a manner sufficiently compelling for a mass-market book." So no, not academic. (t · c) buidhe 20:23, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Do not you realize how strange it sounds? There is a mainstream well known book about someone, but we can not use that book on a page about the person. My very best wishes (talk) 21:01, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- The sourcing restriction would have been unnecessary if popular (indeed "mainstream"... as in "the ideas, attitudes, or activities that are regarded as normal or conventional") perceptions were reasonably in line with facts and academic consensus in this topic area. That is not the case. (t · c) buidhe 09:46, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
- If so, nothing prevents from saying on the page that "according to popular perceptions ... [refs], but a historical research revealed that ... [refs]". This is a common situation in all subject areas. The sourcing restrictions are not necessary (this is an RS, not self-published materials). Also, in this case the difference between the popular/mainstream perceptions and the source you are using seem be only in details, i.e. in the motivation of a person to do something: he is not a "hero", he just did his duty as a hero. No one disputes what he actually did. My very best wishes (talk) 15:31, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
- The sourcing restriction would have been unnecessary if popular (indeed "mainstream"... as in "the ideas, attitudes, or activities that are regarded as normal or conventional") perceptions were reasonably in line with facts and academic consensus in this topic area. That is not the case. (t · c) buidhe 09:46, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
- Do not you realize how strange it sounds? There is a mainstream well known book about someone, but we can not use that book on a page about the person. My very best wishes (talk) 21:01, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Indeed, Fleming states that "Fairweather reduces the “cast of characters,” oversimplifying in order to advance the narrative in a manner sufficiently compelling for a mass-market book." So no, not academic. (t · c) buidhe 20:23, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- The requirement is to be "academically focused books by reputable publishers". I've seen no evidence that the book is academically focused, or that the publisher has a reputation for publishing accurate books about Polish history. (t · c) buidhe 20:07, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- The publisher seems to be "reputable", and it does not have to be academic. The book received an award. Is the book itself "academically oriented"? I did not read the book, but it was described as "compelling study" in reviews [106]. So I think it does qualify as research. Yes, the author does not work for a University, but this does not automatically disqualify his research. My very best wishes (talk) 19:56, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- No, the publications in The Guardian are RS per WP:RS and Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources. I am not saying the book is infallible... I am only saying it was described in RS as a "study", and it apparently was a study. That should be enough to describe it as a "study" on the page about such book, and the book (not the article in The Guardian) can be arguably seen as appropriate for this subject area. My very best wishes (talk) 20:26, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
- Not the best source. It is much better than some of the trash pushed further up on this page, but it is a mass market book that is a heroic biography. Witold Pilecki is at the centre of modern myth making in Poland. After the communist regime was toppled down, he was promoted as an anti-communist hero, the arch typical "cursed soldier". An heroic biography by a non-academic may mix the mythical and non-mythical here. If academic sources disagree with this source on details, then the academic sources should be used.--Bob not snob (talk) 06:48, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
- While scholarly sources (written by academics and published by academic press) are most desirable, books written by respected journalists and published by likewise reputable publishers unquestionably meet the requirements of WP:RS. The issue of whether a description of him as a "volunteer" is correct or undue does not belong on this noticeboard. - GizzyCatBella🍁 07:22, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
- The Arbcom remedy set higher expectations than traditional WP:RS for Poland in WW2, including the Holocaust; pls see: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism in Poland#Article sourcing expectations. --K.e.coffman (talk) 22:51, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- and the books clearly meets it, since it is focused on history ("academically focused", having received at least one review in academic journal - Fleming, already mentioned here) and published by a reputable publishers - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:31, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- This is not a case to be discussed here. Fairweather is a reputable journalist, his book published by a reputable house. Whether Pilecki volunteered, not really volunteered, or was ordered & coerced to be caught is an interesting topic that should be discussed & elaborated in the article, not at RSN.--Darwinek (talk) 16:48, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
- So-so. It looks like a fine book, but without peer-review it's a problem to use it, especially in this TA. If the question is about the use of the term "volunteer", then the book is superseded by the journal article. François Robere (talk) 11:30, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- The book does not meet the Arbcom remedy at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism in Poland#Article sourcing expectations, which states:
- 5) The sourcing expectations applied to the article Collaboration in German-occupied Poland are expanded and adapted to cover all articles on the topic of Polish history during World War II (1933-45), including the Holocaust in Poland. Only high quality sources may be used, specifically peer-reviewed scholarly journals, academically focused books by reputable publishers, and/or articles published by reputable institutions. (...)
- --K.e.coffman (talk) 21:50, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- To the contrary it's a "high quality source", a "academically focused book by a reputable publisher". Volunteer Marek 21:54, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- How is the book "academically focused"? --K.e.coffman (talk) 07:14, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- It's based on archival sources, thoroughly researched, has been compared to scholarly works and "extensively documented" and is a result of several years worth of research. Volunteer Marek 08:03, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- It lacks in-line citations and it's unclear if it was peer-reviewed. François Robere (talk) 12:24, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- I would appreciate it if you quit it with your perennial practice of inserting yourself into conversations that do not involve you. It's extremely rude. Volunteer Marek 02:19, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- And "lacks in-line citations"? Seriously? What is it suppose to be a Wikipedia article (cuz yeah, those are "scholarly" /sarcasm)? There are plenty of scholarly works which don't utilize inline citations. You're grasping at straws. Volunteer Marek 02:19, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- In re:
It's extremely rude
-- this discussion is taking place on a noticeboard, is it not? Editors do not get to control who responds to whom, here or on Talk pages. --K.e.coffman (talk) 04:43, 10 February 2021 (UTC)- The fact that it's taking place on a noticeboard does not cancel the requirement for courtesy and WP:EQ. Especially from a user with a history of warnings and blocks for harassing behavior and following others around. Volunteer Marek 19:28, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- In-line or footnote citations are a feature of all academic style guides that I'm aware of; their absence suggests this is not an "academically focused" work like you claim. François Robere (talk) 13:57, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- In re:
- The author is a journalist who is not a specialist of the subject and has no academic credentials in that specific area. It was published by Custom House, as self described
curated line of thought-provoking nonfiction and distinguished literary fiction
that publishesbestselling authors as well as talented new voices who seek to shape the conversation about where we’ve been and where we’re going, and tell transformative, emotionally-authentic stories
[107]. According to the author headopted a technique he called "literary forensics," or re-creating "the scene of the crime"
[108] (???). Clearly, it's not an academically focused source.--JBchrch (talk) 18:47, 9 February 2021 (UTC)- I'm sorry, but are you actually citing a "alternative weekly newspaper" from Vermont, to argue that this source is unreliable? How hard did you have to scour the internet to find that "source"? And the Harper Collins quote? It says "thought provoking nonfiction" right there, so what's the problem?
- And yes, Fairweather is a journalist. A distinguished investigative journalists who:
Fairweather was a war correspondent embedded with British troops during the 2003 invasion of Iraq. He was bureau chief for The Daily Telegraph in Baghdad, where he met his wife, New York Times journalist Christina Asquith.[2] Fairweather survived an attempted kidnapping and an attempted suicide bombing.[2] He later covered the war in Afghanistan for The Washington Post.[2] His war coverage has won a British Press Award and an Overseas Press Club award citation.[3][4] His book The Volunteer, a biography about Witold Pilecki, a Polish resistance fighter who infiltrated Auschwitz, won the 2019 Costa Book Award.
- The book has also received numerous favorable reviews from both academics and other "academically focused" outlets. Volunteer Marek 02:19, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- Volunteer Marek, I doubt neither your good faith nor that the book is well-researched and interesting. The article I cited features an interview by the author, and it's the main source for the Jack Fairweather (writer) article, which is how I found it. I am not an academic snob and I often read non-fiction books by non-academics. I have no reason to think that Fairweather did a sloppy job here. But the point is that ArbCom said "academically-focused" and no matter how hard I try, I don't see how this book can fit in this criterion—sorry. Also I don't know how one would go at challenging this remedy or asking for an exception.--JBchrch (talk) 19:37, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- It lacks in-line citations and it's unclear if it was peer-reviewed. François Robere (talk) 12:24, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- @VM: none of the proffered reasons suggests that the book is "academically focused". --K.e.coffman (talk) 22:51, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- " based on archival sources, thoroughly researched, has been compared to scholarly works and "extensively documented" and is a result of several years worth of research" <-- Not academically focused? I don't know what your arbitrary standard for "academically focused" is, but that sounds to me like it's what it should be. Volunteer Marek 02:19, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- It's based on archival sources, thoroughly researched, has been compared to scholarly works and "extensively documented" and is a result of several years worth of research. Volunteer Marek 08:03, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- How is the book "academically focused"? --K.e.coffman (talk) 07:14, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- To the contrary it's a "high quality source", a "academically focused book by a reputable publisher". Volunteer Marek 21:54, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- "Academically focused": written by a scholar of a particular discipline, published by an academic press, and / or peer reviewed. In addition, lack of inline citations is a strong indicator that the book is not scholarly, as it's impossible to verify information against sources the author used. --K.e.coffman (talk) 04:43, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
Revisiting WP:APLRS
Defer to academic sources where they disagree with this book.I'm not going to say that it's flat-out unreliable, but I don't believe it meets a reasonable definition of 'academically focussed', which I would interpret as meaning 'intended for an academic audience'. My partner is an academic historian - she has written monographs about her academic research, for which the intended audience is other researchers and academics; she also has written text books, for which the intended audience is A-level students and history undergraduates. All of these are peer-reviewed, intended for an academic audience, and thus could be defined as 'academically focussed' sources. She has also been approached by publishers about writing books "for trade", which is jargon for a larger, more general readership - interested amateurs. Although she is an academic, these would not be academically focussed, no matter how well-researched they were, because they are written in a different way for a different audience. The Volunteer is clearly such a "for trade" book; that doesn't make it generally unreliable of course, but where it disagrees with academic sources we should defer to those. GirthSummit (blether) 10:31, 10 February 2021 (UTC) Amended - see comment below. GirthSummit (blether) 13:26, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- Girth Summit, I think your conclusion sidesteps the point. Same with editors here invoking WP:RSP — not relevant. This is about living up to the spirit of Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism in Poland#Article sourcing expectations, period. Michael Fleming (historian) qualifies. Jack Fairweather (writer) does not. It really isn't much more complicated than that. And Volunteer Marek, until François Robere, himself, is otherwise restricted, expect him to participate in matters pertaining to this topic area. He does not need to follow you necessarily in order to arrive here, at WP:RSN. Not sure why it would be a priority for him to target you in particular, again, here at RSN, rather than him just wanting to engage a topic, which, like for you, is clearly dear to his heart. I'm not saying he is without blemish. On the contrary. But, when he says:
It lacks in-line citations and it's unclear if it was peer-reviewed
, he is entitled to advance that view without you responding with:I would appreciate it if you quit it with your perennial practice of inserting yourself into conversations that do not involve you. It's extremely rude.
I'm sorry, but that response is, in fact, what is rude. You well know how sympathetic I am (and consistently have been) to your devastating Icewhiz plight, but, I'm letting you know that using his specter as a blunt instrument, that's a problem. It's a problem when it distracts from a matter-of-fact discussion about content and it's a problem whenever it injects further hostility into the APL mix, for naught. El_C 07:12, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- Girth Summit, I think your conclusion sidesteps the point. Same with editors here invoking WP:RSP — not relevant. This is about living up to the spirit of Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Antisemitism in Poland#Article sourcing expectations, period. Michael Fleming (historian) qualifies. Jack Fairweather (writer) does not. It really isn't much more complicated than that. And Volunteer Marek, until François Robere, himself, is otherwise restricted, expect him to participate in matters pertaining to this topic area. He does not need to follow you necessarily in order to arrive here, at WP:RSN. Not sure why it would be a priority for him to target you in particular, again, here at RSN, rather than him just wanting to engage a topic, which, like for you, is clearly dear to his heart. I'm not saying he is without blemish. On the contrary. But, when he says:
- Thanks El C, I confess I didn't read that - I was just considering the question of whether or not this could fairly be described as an academically focussed book. Since I conclude that it cannot be so described, it clearly not meet the requirements of the sourcing expectations set out in the link you have provided, and thus should not be used as a source on any article on the topic of Polish history during World War II. I'll amend my comment above. GirthSummit (blether) 13:25, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
User:El C, User:Girth Summit - the problem is that the book by Fairweather is a comprehensive biography of Pilecki. The article by Fleming is a REVIEW of that book. Apparently we can use the book review but not the book itself. How does that make sense? And I guess it's possible to come up with some definition of "academically focused" if one really wants which would exclude the Fairweather book. But here are the reviews of the book:
- The Guardian: "Fairweather’s book is an impressive feat of research, organised by a keen moral intelligence and written with the elegance and pace of a first-rate thriller." Also calls it "extraordinary" by comparison.
- The Guardian, again, a glowing review
- interview with NPR
- "Book is full of brilliantly researched passages". In the interview it's also brought up that Fairweather had a staff of researchers, including professional historians working for him. The two researchers that are brought up are Dr. Katarzyna Chizynska, a historian and Dr. Marta Goljan, a professor Jewish Studies. It's also mentioned how Fairweather has been attacked by the "right-wing" in Poland because his book doesn't whitewash anything.
- Review in WSJ "Few books have enthralled, incensed and haunted me as "The Volunteer" has done", "Superb account of (...) Jack Fairweather".
- Here is Washington Post (where Fairweather has worked as a prize winning war correspondent for a decade+ (!))
- Interview in Time magazine
- The book was featured on C-SPAN (!)
- Here is Museum of Jewish Heritage in New York, which invited Fairweather to give a presentation and a discussion with historians and Holocaust scholars.
- Here is Kirkus reviews: An inspiring story beautifully told.
- Here is The Times
- Here is Publisher's Weekly "Fairweather mines letters, coded diaries, and personal interviews to tell the story " and "Fairweather tells this tragic tale in gripping fashion, bringing a new angle to the literature of the Holocaust"
- And so on and so forth. Look. Yes, Fairweather is an investigative journalist and a war correspondent not a guy with a Phd in history. But so what? The book has received glowing reviews from scores of respectable outlets and professional historians. It's published by a "reputable publisher". Fairweather spend several years researching the book with a team of actual historians (this may sounds strange but this is actually how a lot of books are written these days). This is a work DEDICATED to its subject.
But apparently we can't use it because ... the author doesn't have a PhD? Because someone went and found a single review where someone else has a little quibble about the definition of the word "volunteer"? (why can't we just mention that and still use the source?) This is *exactly* the kind of comprehensive work that we SHOULD be using. And you have to take a very narrow interpretation of both the letter and the intent of the sourcing restriction to reject this source. Apparently political hit pieces from tabloid newspapers are ok, but a thoroughly researched and widely acclaimed book isn't because of some technicality.
This just makes me shake my head. This is people trying their best to WP:GAME any kind of restriction or rule they can. Oh look! [Bob not snob, an account which started editing in November 2019, right after the ArbCom case concluded, who's first edits were to pick a fight with me, and who right from the beginning displayed a thorough knowledge of wikipedia policies, and who ceased editing Poland topics when the 500/30 restriction was imposed, and who then resumed editing Poland topics, as soon as they hit 500 edits, has now used this as an excuse to to completely gut the article, removing 25000 bits of text from the article. And they didn't just remove Fairweather's book. They removed half a dozen of actually reliable sources. Like a book by an Italian historian. A book by a British historian. An article by Timothy Snyder. And a whole bunch of others. And this even before the discussion has been closed.
Why is "Bob not snob" removing 25000 bytes of text on the pretext that one of these sources doesn't mean the sourcing restriction? Because they WANT someone to just revert them entirely so they can go running to WP:AE. Because "Volunteer Marek restored sources prohibited by sourcing restriction, oh noes! Someone safe Wikipedia from him!!!!" This is so painfully transparent. This is such a waste of time. This is the reason why this topic area is so toxic - because obnoxious game playing and bullshit like this is tolerated. Because new accounts that are obvious sock puppets STILL infest this topic. Because it's so easy for a couple editors to pull wool over admin eyes. This is a source we SHOULD be using. If it violates the sourcing restriction, then the sourcing restriction is absurd.
I'm so. sick. of. this. bullshit. Volunteer Marek 19:11, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Well, Volunteer Marek, if you're able to show that the author employed academic researchers, then it likely meets the sourcing requirements. But how could anyone had known that this is so? I seem to keep telling multiple editors lately: don't expect omniscience. Live up to the spirit of WP:BURDEN. I know Girth Summit feels my pain in this regard (diff). So, I'm sorry to say, but that is on you. As for Bob not snob, feel free to file an AE report or contact the Arbitration Committee about him, I, personally, am not inclined to act with respect to him — he has somewhat cunningly preempted me with that bogus AN complaint about me, even though it was aspersion-riddled and ultimately deemed nonsensical and disruptive by all concerned. That normally would not stop me, but as it happens, I, myself, just don't want to deal with him right now due to... reasons. El_C 20:05, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- El_C, I 100% understand not wanting to get involved wrt to BnS (I'm also 100% right about that account). And I'm not asking for omniscience, I'm asking for a bit of common sense. This is NOT what the sourcing restriction was suppose to do. This here is just WP:GAMEing and WP:WIKILAWYERing. We are NOT talking about some journalist for the Daily Mail or something writing some salacious tract. Fairweather is a veteran journalist for Washington Post and award winning war correspondent. Journalists actually write books (often in fact, biographies) as way to "cap off" their careers. These books - as long as we're talking about professionals at top outlets like WP or Guardian or something similar - are always researched thoroughly, they always have PhD historians and scholars as consultants and while they are intended for a popular audience they follow scholarly standards. This is how publishing works these days (it might also come as a shock to a lot of folks to learn that even many of the academic books out there are "ghost written" by an academic's grad students with the "author" just plopping his name on the cover) And here we have an entire work dedicated to a subject that we want to have a good Wikipedia article on - and yet we can't use it? Again, this just goes against common sense.
- As far as who the particular researchers are on this book you have to dig for that a bit. Fairweather mentions who the researchers are on his twitter (they're both scholars with PhDs in relevant subjects). I know twitter isn't a reliable source but he also mentions it in the Haaretz interview (the interview itself is a good one, though the headline they slapped on it is click bait). Volunteer Marek 20:49, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Volunteer Marek, if you want "common sense" then live up to WP:BURDEN, each and every time. It is not a violation of WP:GAME for editors to insist on that. Veteran journalists do not meet WP:APLRS by definition. Whatever the degree of scholarly scrutiny that may be present in their respective works, again, needs to be established each and every time, not assumed a priori. Failure to do so is where problems are likely to continue to rise. The Committee has quite deliberately set an especially high bar for APLRS, similar to WP:MEDRS in many ways, and it is what it is. The sooner you come to terms with that, the better. El_C 22:27, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- If saying you had an academic consultant, on twitter or an interview, turns a source into academic, then Poldark (2015 TV series) is academic too because it is advised by Dr. Hannah Greig of York University. Braveheart surely had historical consultants as well.--Astral Leap (talk) 08:36, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Astral Leap, the point is that when, say, a veteran journalist employs scholars to produce a work of note, it's reception and esteem among scholarly sources determines its corresponding status. Not sure drawing a parallel from that to historians hired to help make production sets of historical dramas more believable is that on-point, to be honest. El_C 10:38, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- If saying you had an academic consultant, on twitter or an interview, turns a source into academic, then Poldark (2015 TV series) is academic too because it is advised by Dr. Hannah Greig of York University. Braveheart surely had historical consultants as well.--Astral Leap (talk) 08:36, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- I wouldn't use this as an RS. It doesn't meet WP:APLRS, which isn't optional. It's a little breathless in the telling and there's reconstructed dialogue. SarahSV (talk) 23:42, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Further to this, having a book reviewed well by a non-scholarly source implies that the book was well written, but doesn't mean that it is accurate, as I doubt that most reviewers in English language press sources would be familiar enough with the source material to fairly judge that. Tiger King is a compelling documentary, but that doesn't mean the way that they presented the events was factually accurate. Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:50, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
This may be a bit of an aside, but I still want to make it clear that my interpretation of WP:APLRS is that, once challenged, Consensus required on the side of WP:BURDEN basically comes into effect. That is, from that point on, the onus to achieve consensus for inclsuion of the disputed source as APLRS falls squarely on those advocating for its usage. Just to remove any doubt. And I'll finish by adding that I, for one, am a proponent of responding to any violations of that nature decisively, with impactful Arbitration enforcement remedies. El_C 00:17, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- I think the discussion above illustrates how this sourcing restriction is leading to enormous waste of time and does not help to improve anything. Here is the problem. Some less significant sub-subjects are covered only (or mostly) by sources that do not fit such restrictions. And it is only fair using books for general public that qualify as RS (such as that one), along with academic publications. Nothing prevents from saying that "according to a popular perception/a book/an organization/whatever ... [refs], but the research demonstrate that ... [refs]". But that should be decided by Arbcom. I think they already said "no", but perhaps someone might ask again. My very best wishes (talk) 00:40, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- That's right, this is a matter that is solely at the discretion of the Committee. I'd also say that fair is in the eye of beholder. I, for one, consider the sourcing requirements to be of paramount import and will strongly argue before the Committee against amendment proposals to weaken or rescind them outright. El_C 00:54, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Well, I do not really see why this subject area must be different from others, even more contentious subject areas. I do agree though that making WP:MEDRS on medical subjects was helpful, but it has been decided by community, after discussion, not by Arbcom. But whatever. I do not care too much because I do not usually edit these subjects. My very best wishes (talk) 01:25, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Regardless, let's keep this space free to discuss on-topic matters, now that we got all of that out of the way. I'll add that if there is a less contentious topic area on the project, I, at least, have not encountered it. El_C 01:29, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- I think WP:ARBPIA is a lot more contentious - based on my personal experience. There, simply commenting on a talk page, presumably in a neutral fashion (but of course it never is), can trigger a serious conflict between other contributors; that had happen; since then I avoid these pages like a plague My very best wishes (talk) 03:43, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Well, I disagree: not WP:ARBPIA (which has calmed down a lot recently), not WP:ARBIPA, not WP:AP2, et cetera, etc., none of them comes close. Anyway, hopefully, that's it as far this OT is concerned. El_C 08:18, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- It ebbs and flows, but generally ARBPIA is worse. This topic area was pretty peaceful 2012-2016 until Icewhiz and “friends” showed up. It’s been a disaster ever since. Also, in some ways this is a spill over from ARBPIA (even the same restriction 500/30).
- Anyway, the sourcing restriction is most definitely not a carte Blanche to completely gut articles and then demand “consensus!” on talk, while stonewalling.
- Every rule on Wikipedia can and will be WP:GAMEd (including WP:GAME itself). At the end of the day there’s no replacement for common sense and doing the grunt work and learning the sources. Volunteer Marek 08:28, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Volunteer Marek, until otherwise amended or rescinded by the Committee, it is to be enforced and that's that. Anyway, yes, ebbs and flows, but we're talking about the here and now. Yet, these ebbs and flows are not due to some bad actors appearing somewhat randomly, let's make that perfectly clear. Icewhiz is as much a symptom of and a response to recent key developments happening in Poland. Ones ultimately, culminating in the Amendment to the Act on the Institute of National Remembrance and all that has followed since. So, best to just put everything on the table, wouldn't you say? To me, that is the true meaning of common sense. Yes, there's an WP:ARBPIA spillover, but so what? This is about disputing culpability for the darkest moment of our species. Sticking to the pretense that it's just another topic area — that is an inexplicable position. El_C 10:27, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- El C, like I mention to Girth below, I had a long, profound, insightful and very persuasive reply all written here but my power and internet keep going out because of a snow storm so it got lost to the internet ether. Anyway, I 100% agree that the Polish government passing that idiotic Amendment influences/influenced what happened in this topic area. One way it has done so is that some editors arrived feeling like they had to "punish" Poland's government and even "Poland" for passing it by editing Wikipedia articles. There's a very strong element of WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS here. And they've used its existence as an excuse for their own disruptive actions. There's definitely "wrongs" in the actions of the Polish government, but this is as if I went to the article on, I don't know, Abraham Lincoln, and removed half of it because "look, Americans elected Trump as president so obviously all American written sources are questionable, and everyone knows you just can't trust those Trumpist Americans to write about their own history, we need impartial Eastern European editors to do so". I could repeat the analogy with Boris/Brexit and UK, or France where the National Front is the most popular party, or Israel where the left has effectively ceased to exist it seems like (Meretz has like ... 3 seats and Labor... does it even exist?) or Germany where the Alternative for Germany is making huge gains in parliament, etc. Yes, Poland has an aggressive right wing government that passes fucked up laws. So do a lot of countries these days.
- And how are you going to enforce this restriction when nobody can tell what qualifies or what doesn't? What if someone goes to an article, removes 80% of it, then camps out on talk page insisting strenuously that none of the sources meet the requirement while yelling about "no consensus!" We gonna have to waste time going through each and every one or risk getting reported to WP:AE? This whole thing is a recipe for abuse. You pass ill thought out rules you get MORE litigation, MORE conflict, MORE battleground. Volunteer Marek 17:06, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Volunteer Marek, until otherwise amended or rescinded by the Committee, it is to be enforced and that's that. Anyway, yes, ebbs and flows, but we're talking about the here and now. Yet, these ebbs and flows are not due to some bad actors appearing somewhat randomly, let's make that perfectly clear. Icewhiz is as much a symptom of and a response to recent key developments happening in Poland. Ones ultimately, culminating in the Amendment to the Act on the Institute of National Remembrance and all that has followed since. So, best to just put everything on the table, wouldn't you say? To me, that is the true meaning of common sense. Yes, there's an WP:ARBPIA spillover, but so what? This is about disputing culpability for the darkest moment of our species. Sticking to the pretense that it's just another topic area — that is an inexplicable position. El_C 10:27, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Well, I disagree: not WP:ARBPIA (which has calmed down a lot recently), not WP:ARBIPA, not WP:AP2, et cetera, etc., none of them comes close. Anyway, hopefully, that's it as far this OT is concerned. El_C 08:18, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- I think WP:ARBPIA is a lot more contentious - based on my personal experience. There, simply commenting on a talk page, presumably in a neutral fashion (but of course it never is), can trigger a serious conflict between other contributors; that had happen; since then I avoid these pages like a plague My very best wishes (talk) 03:43, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Regardless, let's keep this space free to discuss on-topic matters, now that we got all of that out of the way. I'll add that if there is a less contentious topic area on the project, I, at least, have not encountered it. El_C 01:29, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Well, I do not really see why this subject area must be different from others, even more contentious subject areas. I do agree though that making WP:MEDRS on medical subjects was helpful, but it has been decided by community, after discussion, not by Arbcom. But whatever. I do not care too much because I do not usually edit these subjects. My very best wishes (talk) 01:25, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Volunteer Marek I'm going to restrict myself to responding to your comments on the source, rather than the history of the article itself or of any of the accounts that have been editing here. From the many positive reviews of the book you link to above, you could make a very strong argument that this book was widely well-received, but I don't see how they support the notion that it is academically focussed - they're all general publications. I already said that it isn't just about the author, or indeed any researchers they may have collaborated with, it's also about the style of writing and the intended audience. The front cover of this book (the one on sale on Amazon in the UK) is emblazoned with '#1 SUNDAY TIMES BESTSELLER', and 'the true story of the resistance hero who infiltrated Auschwitz' - it's very obviously popular history. I'm not saying that this automatically makes it bad, or that it makes it necessarily wrong on any of the fundamentals, but I cannot in good faith look at that book and agree that 'academically focussed' would be a fair description.
- I have no view on whether or WP:APLRS is a good thing for the project or not - I don't know enough about the history of the conflicts that led up to it being put in place. It you obviously think that it's a bad thing, and I'd urge you to make the case for it to be modified or rescinded; as long as it remains in place though, I can't see how this book is usable as a source on an article on the topic of Polish history during World War II (1933-45).
- I'll add that I don't understand your comment about 'political hit pieces from tabloid newspapers' being OK - they would obviously not be OK on any article, but would be categorically prohibited by the restrictions of WP:APLRS. GirthSummit (blether) 09:33, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Ugh. Girth, I wrote a substantial response but we've got a snow storm here and my power went out and it got lost and I don't feel like rewriting it again so let me just say that I have no problem with anything you're saying and I understand where you're coming from. My complaint and frustration is with the general absurdity of the situation we find ourselves in. Volunteer Marek 16:43, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
I suggest that people read this article: [109] Maria Suchcitz, "A volunteer’s journey to hell and back: A review of Jack Fairweather, The Volunteer: The True Story of the Resistance Hero Who Infiltrated Auschwitz, London, WH Allen / Penguin Random House, 2019", New Eastern Europe, 12 November 2019.
What the article has to say seems more substantial than whether or not Gazeta Wyborcza is a "leftist" newspaper, or whether Witold Pilecki – 1940 cofounder of the Secret Polish Army resistance movement – should be regarded as having "volunteered" to get himself incarcerated at the Auschwitz Concentration Camp or whether he had been tasked to do so by his underground organization.
Nihil novi (talk) 12:25, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
I agree with the others that The Volunteer does not meet WP:APLRS. It is not an academic book but one written for a mass market audience and published by a mass market publisher. It doesn't have the hallmarks of academic reliability (internal citations, real peer review, etc.) as others have pointed out above. That doesn't mean it's not an RS or can't be used anywhere, but I don't think it qualifies as APLRS and its use, if any, should be sparing, with attribution, and careful. It should probably not be used to support statements in wikivoice. Levivich harass/hound 21:47, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
References
- ^ Fleming, Michael (2019). "The Volunteer: The True Story of the Resistance Hero Who Infiltrated Auschwitz: by Jack Fairweather (London: WH Allen, 2019), 505 pages". Israel Journal of Foreign Affairs. 13 (2): 289–294. doi:10.1080/23739770.2019.1673981.
- ^ Cuber-Strutyńska, Ewa (2017). "Witold Pilecki. Confronting the legend of the "volunteer to Auschwitz"". Zagłada Żydów. Studia i Materiały (Holocaust Studies and Materials): 281–301. doi:10.32927/zzsim.720.
RFC: The Federalist
Which of the following best describes the reliability of The Federalist?
- Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting
- Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
- Option 3: Generally unreliable for factual reporting
- Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated as in the 2017 RfC of the Daily Mail
NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:07, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
Survey (The Federalist)
- Option 4 - I wish to propose that The Federalist be formally deprecated as a source due to its ongoing and unretracted promotion of false and seditious conspiracy theories about the 2020 United States presidential election. In this article, published on November 4, 2020, the site's "political editor," John Daniel Davidson, wrote that
As of this writing, it appears that Democratic Party machines in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania are trying to steal the election.
He goes on to uncritically republish and promote a wide array of false conspiracy theories about the election, claiming that "vote dumps" in Wisconsin were part of a Democratic plot and thatIn Pennsylvania, the Democratic scheme to steal the election is a bit different.
Note that these are statements of fact - the site's political editor declared, as fact, that there was a Democratic scheme to steal the election. The article closes with the unequivocal declaration thatthe only possible conclusion one can come to right now is that Democrats are trying to steal the election in the Midwest.
As of today, the article remains on the site unretracted, uncorrected, and without a shred of notice that literally every single thing in the story is a half-truth, demonstrable falsehood, distortion, or outright lie, and that Joe Biden won a free and fair election. The Federalist cannot possibly stand in this light as a reliable source for any purpose, and even the opinions of its writers should be closely scrutinized for due weight - the weight which should be accorded to a site which continues to claim that the 2020 election was stolen is quite arguably nil. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:07, 8 February 2021 (UTC) - Option 3: The Federalist is a bad source. There are fairly few cases, to say the least, where it should be used. However, the extreme step of deprecation should be reserved for the most extreme cases of abuse -- where a source is so blatantly awful that it doesn't even serve as reliable for self-descriptions or the most apolitical, anodyne statements of fact. The Daily Mail is deprecated because it actively lies about its own statements and its own writers; it would not hesitate to publish "SKY NOT BLUE" as the front-page headline if it saw the opportunity. Competence is required, and the sort of person who would need outright deprecation to avoid using the Federalist is quite likely a CIR failure in other respects. That said, it's certainly not anything above #3 -- its statements for things other than "self-descriptions or the most apolitical, anodyne statements of fact" are...wanting. Mark it as the bottom-tier rag it is, but I don't see the need for outright handholding. Vaticidalprophet (talk) 11:08, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 4 The Election conspiracy theories are deliberate misinformation. This is worse than the bad fact checking you would expect fron a source in group 3. The Federalist shoul therefore be deprecated. Asmodea Oaktree (talk) 15:09, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 4 The evidence just seems overwhelming. I can't see any good reason to use a source that repeatedly promotes conspiracy theories. Loki (talk) 15:22, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3 - Usable for attributed statements of opinion, but not for unattributed statements of fact. The situations in which it would be appropriate to use it for opinion will be few and far between, but in those situations we should allow it. Blueboar (talk) 15:32, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 4 A willingness to publish blatant falsehoods about one of the biggest geopolitical stories in the world means they have absolutely no right to be trusted. Of course, in the spring they were merrily publishing dangerous nonsense about COVID-19, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised. They'll publish anonymous opinions for clicks, and they will edit opinion columns to be more provocative, like changing "COVID-19" to "the Wuhan virus" [110]. That's not the kind of place we should go to even for published opinions. A year or two ago I might have been in the option 2 or 3 camp — the funding of the website was proverbially opaque (the question "Who funds The Federalist?" achieved meme status), the co-founder is a paid shill and plagiarist, etc. But now it's time to take a hard line. XOR'easter (talk) 15:37, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Addendum I can understand the reluctance to deprecate a "source" that has only been invoked infrequently so far, but I can also see the value in nipping a problem in the bud. The point raised by Newslinger a few lines below about talk pages is a good one; why should we let the community's time be wasted? XOR'easter (talk) 16:04, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- That doesn't seem like a trustworthy source but I see that the Federalist is cited exactly 12 times in Wikipedia, including as the source for a claim that someone is writing for it. Are we trying to solve the problem that doesn't exist? Alaexis¿question? 16:04, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- The Federalist's website has been linked from 195 article talk pages. Discussions such as Talk:GameStop short squeeze § Yellen, in which an editor insists that The Federalist is reliable for a controversial claim about a living person because consensus (such as the consensus that would result from this RfC) has not yet been documented, sap editor time and effort even if the source is ultimately excluded from the article. — Newslinger talk 20:03, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- There were several more, but I already removed the worst and most obvious uses prior to opening this RfC - I realized there was nothing stopping anyone from coming along and reverting me on the grounds that there's "no consensus" it's unreliable. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 20:11, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks, I didn't realise that simple search doesn't search in the source text. Alaexis¿question? 20:57, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 4 Obvious pusher of conspiracy theories is obvious. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:19, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 2- This is just a continuation of a crusade to block conservative opinions on wikipedia, nothing more.
As of this writing, it appears
(emphasis mine) hardly sounds like a statement of fact. As other have pointed out, the source is rarely used anyway, but I don't see any reason it can't be used with attribution.--Rusf10 (talk) 20:14, 8 February 2021 (UTC)- This fails to engage with the substance of the claims - that it has a history of fabrication and conspiracy theories. I asked below about these claims, and you're pretending they don't exist. This does not instill confidence (and doesn't address the deprecation). I most note that this is not a vote - if you can't provide a reason of substance why it's actually a good source, rather than claiming a conspiracy to suppress a poltical view, then your opinion doesn't address the question, and would properly be ignored in a policy-based assessment of consensus - David Gerard (talk) 00:07, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- I stand by my previous statement "it appears" is not a statement of fact. The article in question also was written on November 4 when explanations for some of these oddities mentioned in the article still were not provided (ie. Antrim County) and when official explanations were provided the author noted them. The facts presented about Pennsylvania in this article about changing of election laws still remain true, although it has since been shown late mail-in ballots were not numerous enough to change the result of the election (something which was clearly unknown on Nov 4).--Rusf10 (talk) 05:21, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- The fact is that there are consequences for selling your soul to QAnon trollery in a bad-faith effort to gin up clicks with outright lies about the election. There are any number of conservative outlets which affirmatively chose a different path, and chose not to stoke the flames of sedition. The Federalist chose to feed credulous dupes a manufactured series of easily-discredited falsehoods specifically designed to cast doubt upon the results of a free and fair election. This could have had no other intended effect but to foment outrage and hatred, and it led to one of the most embarrassing and dangerous spectacles in modern American history. The Federalist chose poorly, and choices have consequences. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:38, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- @NorthBySouthBaranof:That's just not true. The Federalist did not promote QANON, I am 100% sure of this. In fact, it called it a "conspiracy theory" here, here here, here and roughly 10 other articles.--Rusf10 (talk) 02:06, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- Then why did they pander to those same credulous dupes by publishing obvious falsehoods about the 2020 election, stoking irrational fear and hatred for the purpose of generating clicks and ultimately generating a violent insurrection? The answer is that like every other part of the Trumpist media ecosystem, they feared being insufficiently Trumpist. They could have simply explained the facts - that more people voted for Joe Biden than Donald Trump. They chose poorly, and again, choices have consequences. As I explained below, the Trumpist conspiracy ecosystem cannot be neatly separated - your party wove a tangled web of lies and is now caught in the trap. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:20, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- I'm trying to assume good faith here, but which your choice of language makes it very difficult. First,
your party
, really? You don't know if I'm a registered Republican or not (and I'm not). Second, raising questions oddities in election results is not the same thing aspublishing obvious falsehoods
and claiming that The Federalist was responsible forultimately generating a violent insurrection
is something you really should strike. Here's a interesting article about the election that as far as I know contains factual content, doesn't prove anything other than this election was one of the strangest in history (I hope we can at least agree on that point). Also, note that the article which has plenty of citations, mentions a correction which disproves another claim you made that The Federalist doesn't issue corrections. I think most reasonable people would wonder how these results occurred, though not necessarily reject them. Bottom line is you've made several false claims in this RFC (apparently because you did not do your research first) and The Federalist which is mostly an opinion source (see WP:BIASED is far more creditable than you have portrayed it.--Rusf10 (talk) 07:54, 11 February 2021 (UTC)- I never said The Federalist doesn't issue corrections, I said the article I linked above which falsely states that Democrats stole the election has neither been retracted nor corrected. Which is true.
- That link is not an "interesting article" at all - indeed, it's a hilariously obvious dog whistle to the idea that the election was stolen. There was nothing particularly strange about this election, actually. Lots of people voted, all their votes were fairly and accurately counted, and 8 million more Americans voted for Joe Biden, flipping five states. The end. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 08:02, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- I'm trying to assume good faith here, but which your choice of language makes it very difficult. First,
- Then why did they pander to those same credulous dupes by publishing obvious falsehoods about the 2020 election, stoking irrational fear and hatred for the purpose of generating clicks and ultimately generating a violent insurrection? The answer is that like every other part of the Trumpist media ecosystem, they feared being insufficiently Trumpist. They could have simply explained the facts - that more people voted for Joe Biden than Donald Trump. They chose poorly, and again, choices have consequences. As I explained below, the Trumpist conspiracy ecosystem cannot be neatly separated - your party wove a tangled web of lies and is now caught in the trap. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:20, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- @NorthBySouthBaranof:That's just not true. The Federalist did not promote QANON, I am 100% sure of this. In fact, it called it a "conspiracy theory" here, here here, here and roughly 10 other articles.--Rusf10 (talk) 02:06, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- The fact is that there are consequences for selling your soul to QAnon trollery in a bad-faith effort to gin up clicks with outright lies about the election. There are any number of conservative outlets which affirmatively chose a different path, and chose not to stoke the flames of sedition. The Federalist chose to feed credulous dupes a manufactured series of easily-discredited falsehoods specifically designed to cast doubt upon the results of a free and fair election. This could have had no other intended effect but to foment outrage and hatred, and it led to one of the most embarrassing and dangerous spectacles in modern American history. The Federalist chose poorly, and choices have consequences. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:38, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- I stand by my previous statement "it appears" is not a statement of fact. The article in question also was written on November 4 when explanations for some of these oddities mentioned in the article still were not provided (ie. Antrim County) and when official explanations were provided the author noted them. The facts presented about Pennsylvania in this article about changing of election laws still remain true, although it has since been shown late mail-in ballots were not numerous enough to change the result of the election (something which was clearly unknown on Nov 4).--Rusf10 (talk) 05:21, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- David Gerard is entirely correct here. It is inappropriate to use this page as a forum for speculating on the imagined motivations of other editors. Generalrelative (talk) 00:32, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- To be clear, I am not questioning the motive of any particular editor (an I apologize if it was taken that way), but it seems to be a trend here. Just look at how many recent RFCs involve right-leaning sources.--Rusf10 (talk) 05:37, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Again, it's not Wikipedia's problem that a number of "right-leaning sources" chose to openly and notoriously discredit themselves as reliable sources by publishing patently-obvious lies about the 2020 United States presidential election. Policy demands that we base articles on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. If a source chooses to destroy its own
reputation for fact-checking and accuracy
, that choice has consequences. If you think there are any "left-leaning sources" which have published similar lies about the 2020 election, please point them out because they should be deprecated too. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:45, 9 February 2021 (UTC) - You say:
To be clear, I am not questioning the motive of any particular editor
- but this RFC was brought by an individual editor, and your own words above claim their action wasa continuation of a crusade to block conservative opinions on wikipedia, nothing more
. This is clearly and directly a claim about the motive of a particular editor, and it's nonsensical to claim you somehow didn't say what you literally said, right there, just above. And you still have not addressed the substance of the claims - David Gerard (talk) 23:38, 9 February 2021 (UTC)- David, with all due respect, I have addressed the substance of the claims. If you disagree, that's fine, but don't tell me I haven't addressed them. In fact, the editor who brought the RFC made an easily disprovable claim that this source is pushing QANON conspiracy theories which he has neither responded to or retracted. Does that matter to you?--Rusf10 (talk) 06:36, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- "The election was stolen by Democrats" is a conspiracy theory clearly linked to QAnon amid an atmosphere where Trump's base repeatedly rejected reality in favor of a constructed fantasyworld where Trump was actually popular, COVID was a hoax, racism no longer exists, a "deep state undercover agent" posting on an anonymous imageboard is giving you the real inside scoop, and the only way Republicans could lose elections is if Democrats cheat. All of this ridiculous nonsense is of a piece, and we don't have to pretend otherwise. Trump sold lies to credulous dupes, and The Federalist chose to pander to those credulous dupes rather than tell the harder truth that lawn signs and boat parades signify nothing. Your own house organs sabotaged their own credibility, and you have no one but yourselves to blame. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:09, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- You're still pushing the absolutely false claim that the Federalist promotes QANON, when I have proven that they've denounced it multiple times over a period of two years. Just stop, QANON has absolutely nothing to do with this source. I don't know where you get your news from, but you are so misinformed it is incredible. While, I do not have the time to fact check every claim you just made. I'll start with your first one. The very fact that 74 million people voted for Trump (more than the 68 million that voted for Obama) actually does prove he was popular. That was so easy, I'll do one more.
COVID was a hoax
Trump never said this and here's a fact check from PolitiFact (which is not a conservative source). Ask PolitiFact: Are you sure Donald Trump didn’t call the coronavirus a hoax? --Rusf10 (talk) 08:08, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- You're still pushing the absolutely false claim that the Federalist promotes QANON, when I have proven that they've denounced it multiple times over a period of two years. Just stop, QANON has absolutely nothing to do with this source. I don't know where you get your news from, but you are so misinformed it is incredible. While, I do not have the time to fact check every claim you just made. I'll start with your first one. The very fact that 74 million people voted for Trump (more than the 68 million that voted for Obama) actually does prove he was popular. That was so easy, I'll do one more.
- "The election was stolen by Democrats" is a conspiracy theory clearly linked to QAnon amid an atmosphere where Trump's base repeatedly rejected reality in favor of a constructed fantasyworld where Trump was actually popular, COVID was a hoax, racism no longer exists, a "deep state undercover agent" posting on an anonymous imageboard is giving you the real inside scoop, and the only way Republicans could lose elections is if Democrats cheat. All of this ridiculous nonsense is of a piece, and we don't have to pretend otherwise. Trump sold lies to credulous dupes, and The Federalist chose to pander to those credulous dupes rather than tell the harder truth that lawn signs and boat parades signify nothing. Your own house organs sabotaged their own credibility, and you have no one but yourselves to blame. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 07:09, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- David, with all due respect, I have addressed the substance of the claims. If you disagree, that's fine, but don't tell me I haven't addressed them. In fact, the editor who brought the RFC made an easily disprovable claim that this source is pushing QANON conspiracy theories which he has neither responded to or retracted. Does that matter to you?--Rusf10 (talk) 06:36, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- Again, it's not Wikipedia's problem that a number of "right-leaning sources" chose to openly and notoriously discredit themselves as reliable sources by publishing patently-obvious lies about the 2020 United States presidential election. Policy demands that we base articles on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. If a source chooses to destroy its own
- To be clear, I am not questioning the motive of any particular editor (an I apologize if it was taken that way), but it seems to be a trend here. Just look at how many recent RFCs involve right-leaning sources.--Rusf10 (talk) 05:37, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- This fails to engage with the substance of the claims - that it has a history of fabrication and conspiracy theories. I asked below about these claims, and you're pretending they don't exist. This does not instill confidence (and doesn't address the deprecation). I most note that this is not a vote - if you can't provide a reason of substance why it's actually a good source, rather than claiming a conspiracy to suppress a poltical view, then your opinion doesn't address the question, and would properly be ignored in a policy-based assessment of consensus - David Gerard (talk) 00:07, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 4 per OP and XOR'easter. This seems like an uncontroversial call. Generalrelative (talk) 00:30, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 4 I took a deep look at their early coverage of the COVID-19 pandemic about six months ago and was appalled at the disinformation bilge that I found there. Their coverage of Trump's 2020 defeat was, if anything, worse. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:42, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3 Has anyone shown the fact that this source isn't deprecated to be a problem? Where are the examples of editors coming to this board to argue for/against the use of a particular Federalist article? Unless we can show that not deprecating this source is harming Wikipedia we should not deprecate. Springee (talk) 12:38, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 1 or 2 for historical articles, 3, or 4 for their recent pieces. Historically, the Federalist was fairly sane, and provided right-wing commentary that wasn't completely off the wall. However, their recent coverage of the COVID-19 pandemic was completely contrary to what scientific consensus was, and that alone should be worth relegating them to wp:SELFSOURCE to back up claims that conservatives have claimed X. BrxBrx(talk)(please reply with {{SUBST:re|BrxBrx}}) 14:44, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Please be more specific - at what point was it good, and what is the evidence that it was good at this time? - David Gerard (talk) 23:05, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Hi David Gerard, and thank you for replying. I was thinking mostly of descriptors like the following: [111], in 2014, Bloomberg spoke rather approvingly of the outlet as a right-wing source, or at least respectably. Then there's politico comparing it to a tory huffpo [112] - for what it's worth, the huffington post is considered reliable for non-political topics at wp:RSP. Naturally, this was well before they fell off the deep end with the Trump administration, IMHO. Warmest regards, BrxBrx(talk)(please reply with {{SUBST:re|BrxBrx}}) 01:56, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- Please be more specific - at what point was it good, and what is the evidence that it was good at this time? - David Gerard (talk) 23:05, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 4; according to NewsGuard, the site has no credibility whatsoever and scores a 12.5/100 for its false, misleading misinformation. Would probably even suggest blacklisting the URL while you are at it. Aasim (talk) 21:48, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 4 for conspiracy theories, COVID misinformation and blithe willingness to lie for clicks. That even its supporters appear unable to refute these issues with the publication, and instead resort to claiming a conspiracy theory about Wikipedia editors who dare to bring the serious content issues to RSN, suggests there are in fact not satisfactory answers to these issues - David Gerard (talk) 23:08, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 4 Routine conspiracy theories, false reporting, and other misrepresentation. SPECIFICO talk 02:25, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3 No corrections policy that I can find, and also no record of correcting stories that turn out to be wrong. But a grand total of 12 uses in Wikipedia is not worth deprecating. And I haven't seen anything from them as outrageous as something like this [113]. Adoring nanny (talk) 02:31, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 2 I don't know about their Covid reporting, but the stuff i've researched on there seems factual. They have their spin of course and the titles aren't great. Just checked their site and it's good they are reporting about the lifesite youtube channel being banned. Earlier today i was looking for the story and it was only on the actual lifestyle site, so they might pick up stories otherwise missed.Fred (talk) 23:11, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3 just general hooey and unreliability. 777burger user talk contribs 02:01, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3 Don't see the need for the drastic step of deprecation, but the falsehoods it has published is enough for it to be classified as generally unreliable. Zoozaz1 talk 03:59, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3, unfortunately. I do read them sometimes and do think there's a place for their contrarianism, despite being very far away from them on the political spectrum. They have done real reporting which has been better than the dead-eyed nihilism of Sean Davis's twitter feed (likely for many people their first exposure to the website) might indicate. However, that difference has declined and they're basically Radio Trump now. Blythwood (talk) 11:20, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
- 4 or 3, given the repeated instances of publishing false and fabricated information, as noted by OP above and by David Gerard in the Discussion section below. -sche (talk) 21:43, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 4, just look at this stuff. This should be kept as far away from sourcing for articles as possible. Elliot321 (talk | contribs) 06:09, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3. The source cannot be trusted for reliable information. I'm hesitant to fully deprecate, however, because there could be some value to their opinion pieces. -- Calidum 16:09, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 1 or 2 - let's be realistic - there were different conspiracy theories going back & forth on both sides throughout Trump's term - we've endured 4 years of clickbait media on steroids over party politics including 2 impeachments in a Democrat-controlled House, and 2 acquittals in a Republican-controlled Senate. Left-leaning sources sensationalized the impeachments while right leaning sources downplayed them. The side that downplayed it turned out to be correct - he was acquitted - and its the same song, second verse with the Russian collusion conspiracy theories, yet the conservative sources were downgraded, not liberal sources. We've endured boatloads of speculation, sensationalism, and just plain ole political rhetoric in all of our news sources - not one of them stayed in the dugout for that game. If you downgrade this source, then downgrade them all because they all played the same clickbait political game to their respective political demographics. As for the OP's reasons for wanting to deprecate - let's back in time - read this article, and let's deprecate all of the sources who promoted the Democrat's belief that Bush stole the election. That's how silly it all looks with retrospect. Atsme 💬 📧 23:54, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 1 or 2 as per Atsme and the usage mentioned in the discussion. I respectfully disagree with Atme's assertion that the second acquittal of Trump was in a Republican-controlled Senate, but that seems to be their own view and not The Federalists, so does not affect my vote. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:00, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 1 or 2 per Atsme. As explained, there have been other cases of similar theories of election stealing. This one doesn't require it's own special treatment. Willbb234Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 15:36, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3 or 4 their disinformation campaigns around COVID and election conspiracies are without a doubt enough to label them unreliable, and the intent behind them pushes it into deprecation territory.Shadybabs (talk) 13:31, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
Discussion (The Federalist)
- Previous discussion from 2019 indicates similar problems with deliberate promotion of conspiracy theories by the Federalist. Here's some 2018 promotion of conspiracy theories:[114]. The site has promoted COVID-19 conspiracy theories[115]; a former contributor called the Federalist a "conspiracy-mongering partisan rag that has now become a menace to public health"[116]. If advocates have any excuses to offer for this history of fabrication and deliberate misinformation, that would be useful to hear - otherwise this looks very deprecable - David Gerard (talk) 12:40, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Regarding the Covid conspiracy theory, how is it different from all the newspapers that said that masks are mostly needed for people working with patients [117]? This was an article from April 2020 when we knew little about covid and even expert opinion fluctuated a lot. Do you have other examples (I haven't voted yet)? Alaexis¿question? 21:19, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- The Federalist is political, thus their takes will draw ire from the opposing side and will definitely lead to comments like found in the New Yorker. One cannot make a good judgement based on those alone, otherwise it were possible to kill the 'reliable source' stateus of any smaller media by an astroturfing campaign. It is also important to separate opinion from reporting - the New Yorker source is based on pieces in the Federalist that appear as opinion to me. You should not use opinion as a reliable source of anything else than the opinion itself, but it cannot overtly be used to discredit a publication. The better publications sometimes publish disclaimers stating the opinion they publish is not the official one of the publication. It would be odd, though to require this method for any take that somebody could consider controversial. --91.153.156.132 (talk) 12:21, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- There is this usage of the editor by the BBC, alongside usage of university professors. [118] -- --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:11, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- I don't see how the "political editor" being on a podcast translates to the website being reliable. People get chosen for panels, interviewed on TV, etc., for all sorts of reasons, sometimes just because they're visible. XOR'easter (talk) 22:29, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- They were picked by the professional journalist "Ritula Shah", presumably as one of the experts. I have not actually listened to it, so there is a small chance that Davidson was not actually on the expert panel. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:30, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- I don't see how the "political editor" being on a podcast translates to the website being reliable. People get chosen for panels, interviewed on TV, etc., for all sorts of reasons, sometimes just because they're visible. XOR'easter (talk) 22:29, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
Gazeta Wyborcza and OKO.press
Are Gazeta Wyborcza (this) and OKO.press (this) reliable sources for the statements of Wojciech Muszyński in regards to modern left-wing politicians in Poland? User:Volunteer Marek is stating they are not sufficiently reliable.
In my opinion, the left of centre Gazeta Wyborcza is comparable to the The Washington Post, and has maintained its independence from the Polish government. While Oko.press is younger, its investigative journalism has been met with critical acclaim and they have won the 2020 Freedom of Expression Awards from Index on Censorship. Both of these cover national news, and rank among the most reliable journalism sources in Poland.--Bob not snob (talk) 12:52, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Lol. Gazeta Wyborcza is NOT comparable to the Washington Post. You want to back that up? At one point they were reliable but over time, faced with increased competition they've become more and more sensationalistic. Most of their articles these days are football scores and "true crime stories" with a good bit of very polarized political commentary. This is NOT good enough for BLP (in this case it's a report about some facebook comments a historian might have made). Likewise oko.press is a very partisan source which regularly attacks political opponents. Seriously neither of these outlets even tries to hide it's bias. Volunteer Marek 13:44, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- According to the editorial board of The Washington Post (which "represent the views of The Washington Post as an institution") from 23.10.2020: Gazeta Wyborcza is "Poland’s most popular and respected newspaper".--Bob not snob (talk) 14:06, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
Definitely reliable: firstly Gazeta Wyborcza is not left-wing, certainly not when compared to e.g. The Guardian. It's the biggest Polish newspaper and has been since 1990. Oko.press is an internationally awarded investigative portal. The reason they (along with onet.pl) are attacked by the far-right is because they refuse to be bought by and influenced by the ruling United Right and continue to highlight their cronyism and corruption. Abcmaxx (talk) 13:06, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- GW is most certainly left wing. "Biggest" doesn't mean much. Doesn't Daily Mail have the largest circulation in UK? I think your comment actually highlights the issue nicely. They're both hyper partisan outlets. Volunteer Marek 13:44, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Volunteer Marek, The Sun usually outsells the Mail ... GPinkerton (talk) 01:38, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- GW is a liberal newspaper. SarahSV (talk) 01:41, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- Ok? Volunteer Marek 01:51, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- GW is a liberal newspaper. SarahSV (talk) 01:41, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- Volunteer Marek, The Sun usually outsells the Mail ... GPinkerton (talk) 01:38, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- Please note that this is a BLP issue and the editor in question is trying to include these sources to attack a living person simply because somewhere else they were being used as a source. Even if the person in question cannot be considered a reliable source, this kind of gratuitous attacks and attempts to turn BLP pages into attack pages on Wikipedia have resulted in ArbCom topic bans in the past. Volunteer Marek 13:44, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Coverage of Muszyński's own statements in national media is not an attack.--Bob not snob (talk) 14:06, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- NOT reliable for questionable WP:NPOV material regarding BLP's. We should be very firm about using high-quality sources when entering any information regarding BLP's. Biographies of living persons ("BLPs") must be written conservatively regarding the subject's privacy, not cherry-picked statements to press small news. - GizzyCatBella🍁 18:02, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Gazeta Wyborcza is an RS. It was in Gazeta Wyborcza that the Holocaust historian Jan Grabowski complained about the Polish editors on Wikipedia, including Volunteer Marek, who he said were distorting Holocaust history.[119] Another story from that newspaper describes efforts in Poland to discredit Holocaust historians. [120] SarahSV (talk) 18:27, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- And Breitbart has called me a left wing extremist and The Gateway Pundit said I was part of some vast "far-left" conspiracy etc. etc. etc. The fact that other people write goofy stuff about me in sensationalist media does not mean I have a "COI". Here is the WP:COI guideline [121]. Nowhere in there is there anything that applies. If anything the fact that Gazeta Wyborcza publishes the same kind of wrong headed articles about Wikipedians as Breitbart and Gatewaypundit just shows what type of sources they are. Volunteer Marek 22:37, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Note that Gazeta Wyborcza is part of The Guardian's "Europa team": "In 2011, the Guardian teamed up with five other papers from the largest EU countries to investigate the European predicament. Since then, the Europa team – the Guardian, Le Monde, La Vanguardia, La Stampa, Gazeta Wyborcza and Süddeutsche Zeitung – have worked together to dig deeper into some of the major issues of the day." [122] SarahSV (talk) 18:34, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- More info about Gazeta Wyborcza. [123] SarahSV (talk) 19:38, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Volunteer Marek: You seem to have a COI here. I suggest you withdraw from the discussion. François Robere (talk) 20:29, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about. Volunteer Marek 22:22, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- What Sarah mentioned...? François Robere (talk) 12:41, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about. Volunteer Marek 22:22, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Volunteer Marek: You seem to have a COI here. I suggest you withdraw from the discussion. François Robere (talk) 20:29, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Both are reliable as shown above, both sources have a strong reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. And for this particular info, if Muczynski doesn't want this stuff in his Wikipedia bio he shouldn't have posted it publicly on social media. (t · c) buidhe 19:57, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- They're both reliable per evidence discussed above, and lack of comparative evidence to the contrary. Also, I echo Bob's statement that quoting a BLP's words that received national coverage does not, and cannot constitute an attack of a BLP. François Robere (talk) 20:42, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- This is a WP:BLP. These are two partisan sources reporting on something this guy supposedly privately said on facebook which has NOT received "national coverage" otherwise. EVEN IF these were reliable sources (and that is questionable), this info would be simply WP:UNDUE. This is nothing but an attempt to turn a Wikipedia article into an attack page. Volunteer Marek 22:33, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- No-one in their right-mind would call the biggest newspaper in Poland "partisan", nor an award-wiining investigative journalist. The only reason other news outlets in Poland fail to cite such mishaps is because a lot of them are either directly or indirectly state-owned or funded and do not tolerate any criticism of those politically aligned to them. Once again, GW is NOT left-wing by any stretch of imagination, and co-operation with other newspapers does not change that, aside from the fact neither is Le Monde for example. If anything, they are more in line with the Civic Platform, a centre-right party. The founder Adam Michnik was an anti-communist and frequently expressed his support for anti-communist candidates post '89. There is nothing in GW that would make them left-wing. Perhaps anti-PiS, after resisting them and surviving the national onslaught against them sure, but that itself does not make them automatically left-wing, and neither does highlighting someone's faux-pas'. Abcmaxx (talk) 00:26, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- "No-one in their right-mind would call the biggest newspaper in Poland "partisan"" - lol, since when does "biggest newspaper" = non-partisan? I'm sorry but I don't get the logic here. The Daily Mail has a circulation of ... ... ... 1,134,184. The Times? 417,298. The Guardian? 111,155. Fox News, up until recently, was the most widely watched tv news in America. So... if we go by "biggest newspaper" for reliability or partisanship that would make the Daily Mail the MOST reliable and apparently the LEAST partisan, while the Guardian would be the opposite. See how ridiculous this is?
- (In fact the opposite argument is way more plausible. It's hard to become "the biggest" without appealing to lowest common denominator and running sensationalist click bait while pretending it's news. That explains Daily Mail. And perhaps Gazeta Wyborcza too (honestly, they're still running on fumes left over from back when they were indeed respectable, which was like the 1990s)).
- Oh, and asserting that GW is "not left wing" is like claiming that Fox News isn't "right wing". Look. I *am* left wing. I sympathize or agree with lots of their opinions. But I'm not gonna sit here and pretend that they're not left wing. Or not sensationalist. Volunteer Marek 01:12, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Gazeta Wyborcza is quite reliable though not as much as say 10-15 years ago. To counter the steady drop in sales some years ago, GazWyb publisher Agora steered the newspaper in a more tabloidish direction. Wyborcza is still good but their articles on political or historical topics should be always verified by another source. A note to end my statement - there are no fully non-partisan nationwide newspapers in Poland. That's a sad reality of contemporary Poland.--Darwinek (talk) 00:47, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Agree with the characterization if not the "quite reliable" part (maybe... "sometimes reliable"?). And if this wasn't a WP:BLP issue I'd probably be ok with using it. But they're also notorious for doing hit pieces on politicians they don't like (and to be fair, have been subject to the same from the other side too). Volunteer Marek 01:38, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- I would agree with User:Darwinek's assessment. So yes, GW does do hit pieces on politicians they do not like, but as far I am aware they have done so things that actually have happened, and they have a pretty good record in the courts on that. Compare that with let's say TVN, who have been badly caught out before and I would say they are far less reliable. GW still have a relatively big-tent range of contributors, certainly more so than other outlets, although slowly falling into us v them trap. Abcmaxx (talk) 16:21, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Reputable, these are among the best media in Poland. Independent of the government. Similar to The Guardian or The New York Times. Mellow Boris (talk) 10:52, 10 February 2021 (UTC)<--- — User:Mellow Boris (talk • Special:Contributions/Mellow Boris) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Reliable. OKO.press' awards for journalism are impressive. Gazeta Wyborcza is described as quality press by sources ("Quality newspapers such as Gazeta Wyborcza, Rzeczpospolita...", "Gazeta Wyborcza and Rzeczpospolita comprise the quality press". If Wikipeida were to toss Gazeta Wyborcza, then this means disqualifying all or nearly all Polish journalism as most other sources are lower quality.--Astral Leap (talk) 08:52, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Gazeta WyborczaReliable with reservations.In general reliable but should be counterbalanced in case of politics or controversial history.It is a highly liberal newspaper with its own biases.Nothing wrong with that, but needs a different source to show full spectrum of views.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:36, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Oko.pressGenerally unreliable. Highly politically engaged online service, with name which is a play on Koalicja Obywatelska(name of largest opposition party in Poland), it seems it has lost in court for presenting false information before[124]--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:36, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- That one incident does not make them unreliable. They foolishly reprinted a doctored photo, no media outlet is free from those kind of traps. Also they are investigative journalists, so it would be difficult to avoid politics. Do you have any proof of their link to the Civic Coalition? Because I can't see the link in the name. Abcmaxx (talk) 00:09, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
Telewizja Polska
This discussion is following on from Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Polish government-owned media
Poland's current rulers have been politicising (or "polonising" in their words) many media platforms in the country, following the Hungarian model.
Telewizja Polska (called TVP for short), is the flagship state broadcaster. But since 2015 it can now be likened to RT or KCT, in particular TVP Info, but also the long established news programs Panorama, Teleexpress and Wiadomości have basically become nothing more than outright propaganda outlets.
Now this did not happen overnight, and it would be fair to point out a few things first:
- No directly state-run outlet is ever fully independent of its government
- This has steadily increased since 2015, to its current somewhat obvious levels, it did not happen overnight.
- TVP has never really been free from politicisation; during Civic Platform's rule the network was also accused of being biased; however the levels of politicisation and the levels of bias are not comparable to what we have now in the slightest.
I would point out that Sport for now seems to be unaffected, therefore I would exclude TVP Sport from the list. Same may go for things like Polish soap opera channel TVP Seriale, and children's cartoon channel TVP ABC. However, TVP Historia and TVP Edukacja is still very much selective in its content in line with the others, people have started to be fired from TVP Kultura for not being pro-government as well. TVP1, TVP2 and TVP3 seem to be just as affected as the infamous TVP Info. TVP Info also has a large online presence.
I am not going to list all the sources, because actually a lot of the pages have criticisms sections and plenty of sources within them, so I do not see much point in copying and pasting those. Abcmaxx (talk) 00:37, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Extremely biased, unreliable for politics and social issues. The United Right's control over this organ after legislative changes has been compared, unfavourably, with communist era TV. At least back in the communist days everyone knew the news was lies. The sports coverage, weather, or anything else that doesn't touch politics or socials issues is still OK. This November 2020 item is relevant.--Bob not snob (talk) 12:02, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Lacks reputation for fact checking and accuracy (certainly for politics and social issues) per the many, many sources cited at the article. (t · c) buidhe 15:34, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Unreliable xenophobic junk. Is a mouthpiece for the xenophobic Polish government and editorial decisions are made following the direction of the Polish government. Mellow Boris (talk) 10:23, 10 February 2021 (UTC)<--- — User:Mellow Boris (talk • Special:Contributions/Mellow Boris) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Usage in English Wikipedia is not so widespread. I couldn't find anything contentious on a cursory search. Also, as I mentioned in other RFCs, I think we shouldn't take any broad action on full broadcasting networks. --MarioGom (talk) 22:24, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- Generally reliable with caution It is a normal state owned media, and can be used with caution(when it comes to politics). Poland is relatively high on freedom press index, above Japan, Grecee and Israel[125], so the claims about press freedom not being respected are mostly exaggerated due to political infighting.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:41, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
Polskie Radio
This discussion is following on from Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Polish government-owned media
Polskie Radio (PR for short) is the flagship state-run radio network in Poland.
It runs the following:
- Polskie Radio Program I (Jedynka – One) – information and adult contemporary music
- Polskie Radio Program II (Dwójka – Two) – classical music and cultural
- Polskie Radio Program III (Trójka – Three) – rock, alternative, jazz, and eclectic
- Polskie Radio Program IV (Czwórka – Four) – youth oriented
- Polskie Radio 24 (PR24) – news (without music)
- Polskie Radio Chopin – Polish classical music
- Polskie Radio Dzieciom – children programming (daytime), parents magazines (evenings) and Jazz music (nights)
- Polskie Radio Kierowców – music and information for drivers'
- Polskie Radio Rytm – pop music – internet only
- Radio Poland – external broadcasts in Belarusian, English, German, Polish, Russian, and Ukrainian
Now after the governement intereference and censorship scandal of Trójka, where the journalists and presenters who worked there for several decades were forced out of their jobs, creating competing Radio 357 and Radio Nowy Świat stations in protest, and Polskie Radio 24 working hand in hand with the controversial TVP Info, I would question the reliability of the network.
Now this did not happen overnight, and it would be fair to point out a few things first:
- No directly state-run outlet is ever fully independent of its government
- This has steadily increased since 2015, to its current somewhat obvious levels, it did not happen overnight.
- PR has never really been free from politicisation; during Civic Platform's rule the network was also accused of being biased; however the levels of politicisation and the levels of bias are not comparable to what we have now in the slightest.
Now it could well be that classical music, sport, drivers info are all unaffected and there is no reason not to see the network as reliable on those matters; the main concern is political news. Abcmaxx (talk) 00:37, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Extremely biased, unreliable for politics and social issues. The United Right's control over this organ following the legislation and 2016 purge is problematic. They are even questionable for music, as they manipulated the music charts poll after a protest song topped them.--Bob not snob (talk) 12:36, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Unreliable xenophobic junk. Just a mouthpiece for the xenophobic Polish government. Mellow Boris (talk) 10:19, 10 February 2021 (UTC)<--- — User:Mellow Boris (talk • Special:Contributions/Mellow Boris) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- What are we discussing here exactly? Preemptively banning 10 radio stations? How does usage in Wikipedia of these radios look like? --MarioGom (talk) 22:28, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- Reliable Poland is relatively high on freedom press index, above Japan, Grecee and Israel[126], so the claims about press freedom not being respected are mostly exaggerated due to political infighting. Trying to ban 10 radio stations in one general attempt is absurd, the net is too big and no specific evident has been presented--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:44, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
Polska Press
This discussion is following on from Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Polish government-owned media
Poland's current rulers have been politicising (or "polonising" in their words) many media platforms in the country, following the Hungarian model. The ramping up of the rhetoric has been emphasised in late 2020, with the takeover of Polska Press (a collection of many inter-linked regional newspapers and websites) by state-run Orlen.
The following news agencies are affected:
- Polska Press Information Agency (Agencja Informacyjna Polska Press)
The following daily regional newspapers are affected:
- Dziennik Bałtycki
- Dziennik Łódzki
- Dziennik Zachodni
- Gazeta Krakowska
- Głos Wielkopolski
- Głos Dziennik Pomorza
- Gazeta Wrocławska
- Polska Metropolia Warszawska
- Express Bydgoski
- Nowości Dziennik Toruński
- Express Ilustrowany
- Kurier Lubelski
- Gazeta Pomorska
- Gazeta Lubuska
- Dziennik Polski
- Kurier Poranny (founded 1990; not to be confused with other of the same name)
- Gazeta Współczesna
- Nowa Trybuna Opolska
- Echo Dnia,
- Nowiny (Rzeszów)
The following TV magazines are affected:
- Tele Magazyn
- Super Tele
- TV Pilot
- Tele Program
The following advertising newspapers are affected:
- Moto Express
- Autogiełda Wielkopolska
- Jarmark
- Motojarmark
The following free newspapers are affected:
The following internet portals are affected:
- Motofakty.pl (motoring)
- naszemiasto.pl
- strefabiznesu.pl (business)
- stronakobiet.pl (women's)
- strefaagro.pl (agriculture)
- telemagazyn.pl (TV)
- gol24.pl (sports)
- sportowy24.pl (sports)
I would point out that this would only refer to those from 2021 onwards. The sports, TV, small ads and motoring are likely to be much unaffected, the issue is that it becomes incresingly similar to TVP Info in the way they report political news. Abcmaxx (talk) 00:37, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- No to this. Sorry but even your wording/rhetoric ("Poland's rulers" - you mean its democratically elected government? Or was there an insurrection on the capitol or something?) suggests that you're here to RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Being state owned doesn't render you non-reliable. Otherwise we'd have to toss the BBC (or does this "state owned" criteria only apply to the Polish government).
- Some of these may very well be unreliable. But we need to go here on case by case basis and things like what exactly these sources are being used for matters. That's kind of a key consideration of WP:RS - reliable for what?
- Incidentally, this reminds me a bit of the discussions we've had about Russian state owned RT (TV network). I *very strongly* argued that it was not reliable and should pretty much never be used. BUT. That argument was based on the nature of the source itself, not ownership (indeed, some commentators tried to defend RT by pointing out that other state owned media was considered reliable). Same thing here. You want to declare these unreliable? You got to do the work. Show why. Not just "cuz state owned and I don't like the current government". Volunteer Marek 01:20, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Volunteer Marek, The BBC is not state-owned and neither is it government-controlled. Polish media are quite different. GPinkerton (talk) 16:51, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Neither is "Polska Press" which is actually owned by Verlagsgruppe Passau GmbH, a German media company. Or at least it was until recently when apparently it was bought out by PKN Orlen which is ALSO a private company. That's the whole issue here - these are NOT media owned or controlled by the Polish government. Some of them may (I honestly have no idea since some of them are pretty obscure) have a "pro-government" editorial line or something but describing these as "state media" or anything close is simply incorrect. Volunteer Marek 18:36, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Volunteer Marek, The BBC is not state-owned and neither is it government-controlled. Polish media are quite different. GPinkerton (talk) 16:51, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Extremely biased, unreliable for politics and social issues. This company has been "re-Polishized" by the government: "Adam Bodnar, the national ombudsman for citizens' rights, told Wirtualna Polska that this was "a historic moment and, unfortunately, it shows that the authorities decided to take steps similar to those we could previously observe in Hungary under Viktor Orban." He said the transaction demonstrated what direction the ruling party was going in. "After full control of state media," he said, "now it's time for the private media."[127] --Bob not snob (talk) 12:52, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- This is ridiculous. You have a PRIVATE oil company. The Polish government happens to own some shares in this oil company. Simultaneously this oil company happens to own some media companies. And this is suppose to mean that the Polish government "owns" these media outlets? It doesn't.
- Anyway, actually all of this is beside the point. If you think these sources are unreliable then you must make a case on the basis of policy - WP:RS. The phrases "government owned" or "state owned" (and these aren't even that!) don't actually appear anywhere in WP:RS policy. It doesn't matter. You have to show that these outlets fail the criteria that actually ARE laid out in RS. This is simply a misguided proposal for several reasons. Volunteer Marek 18:36, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Unreliable xenophobic junk. Following the takeover, by proxy, of this organization by the xenophobic Polish government. Mellow Boris (talk) 10:16, 10 February 2021 (UTC)<--- — User:Mellow Boris (talk • Special:Contributions/Mellow Boris) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Nothing to do here? State-controlled media is not banned in Wikipedia. I don't think we can have a meaningful discussion about a dozen media outlets at the same time without any reference to actual usage in English Wikipedia. --MarioGom (talk) 22:31, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- - this is crazy..of course all reliable - GizzyCatBella🍁 03:58, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Reliable Poland is relatively high on freedom press index, above Japan, Grecee and Israel[128], so the claims about press freedom not being respected are mostly exaggerated due to political infighting. Trying to dozens of sources stations in one general attempt is absurd, the net is too big and no specific evident has been presented.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:44, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
Rudolph Rummel
Danielbr11 is in the middle of an ANI case, so I would like to have a general discussion about the reliability of one of the sources mentioned above without any material related to Danielbr11's edits. Please move any comment specific to that case to the section above.
I do not consider the works of Rudolph Rummel to be either fringe or mainstream. They appear to be in that area between calls "controversial". There is some dispute over his numbers from other academics, and thus I think anything sourced to Rummel should be properly attributed, and when appropriate disagreement by prominent critics should be included. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:29, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- I would suggest that his figures are not suitable to be included in list type articles, as they are WP:FRINGE and there is not possibility of giving context in that case. Boynamedsue (talk) 16:33, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- I don't think they are fringe. You may be right about not using them in lists where there is no room for context or criticism. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:40, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- I'm on the fence about Rummel being fringe or somewhere-in-the-middle, personally. But even if he's in the middle, I agree that attribution is necessary. I'd also suggest that it's UNDUE to cite him throughout the list, as if he's some unquestionably renowned expert. My preference is that Rummel should only be used in prose—with attribution, of course—when we can provide context/criticism from other reliable sources. And if a significant number of sources show up demonstrating that he's fringe, we should remove him entirely. Woodroar (talk) 17:43, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- You make a good point. I agree; Rummel should only be used in prose with attribution with context/criticism from other reliable sources. I have had to move several comments by a user who shall not be named to the section above because they want to discuss edits to specific lists. Would you be so kind as to make your excellent point about lists in the above section as well? --Guy Macon (talk) 18:57, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- I'm on the fence about Rummel being fringe or somewhere-in-the-middle, personally. But even if he's in the middle, I agree that attribution is necessary. I'd also suggest that it's UNDUE to cite him throughout the list, as if he's some unquestionably renowned expert. My preference is that Rummel should only be used in prose—with attribution, of course—when we can provide context/criticism from other reliable sources. And if a significant number of sources show up demonstrating that he's fringe, we should remove him entirely. Woodroar (talk) 17:43, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- I don't think they are fringe. You may be right about not using them in lists where there is no room for context or criticism. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:40, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- I think we need to ascertain whether his figures are in line with other people on non-Communist matters. It may be ok for other topics if he is just a bit funny about Communism. Boynamedsue (talk) 17:24, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- I have looked at them in depth, and read most of his critics. The fact is that there are a wide variety of numbers on this, all from respected scholars. Some are no doubt influenced by a desire to maximize the numbers for democide in some countries. Some are no doubt influences by a desire to minimize the numbers for democide in some countries. This isn't a case of mainstream vs. fringe. There is no mainstream agreement for most of these numbers. So we should do what we always do when scholars disagree; present all notable views with attribution. The more I think about your comments on lists, the more I agree. we shouldn't just add numbers without a discussion about who disagrees and why. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:52, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
Let me explain a little bit about Rummel. Rudolph Rummel is by no means a fringe author. He is a very reputable scholar, and his "democratic peace" concept is very famous. However, we must clearly understand what exactly his contribution to science consists in. His main contribution is introduction of factor analysis into social sciences. In particular, he collected all available data on mass killings and calculated correlations between various traits of each regime and the scale of killings. He obtained significant negative correlation between democracy and mass violence and strong positive correlation between a degree of totalitarianism and mass killing. That is why he is considered reputable.
However, can he be a good source for figures? No. First. His approach was analyzed by Dulic, who persuasively demonstrated that Rummel's approach (to take all published data on the number of victims and to calculate the boundaries of most probable estimates) inevitably leads to inflated figures. Dulic discusses Rummel's data on Yugoslavia only, but his conclusions are equally applicable to Rummel's approach in general. Interestingly, no other statistician joined the dispute (neither at Dulic's side nor Rummel's side), which is an indication of low interest of true professionals to Rummel's statistics. Second. Rummel used all published data non-critically, and he never re-considered his estimates to a lower side in light of new evidences. Thus, I checked his "Death by government", and his estimates of USSR deaths are based on outdated Cold-war era crude estimates. Despite the fact that a huge amount of archival data became available on the USSR after its dissolution, and now the USSR mortality figures are much better known, Rummel continued to publish dramatically inflated figures, which are more than an order of magnitude higher than actual numbers (and which contradict to most moderns demographic (Erlikman) and archival (Zemskov) data). Accordingly, it is not a surprise that most modern country experts essentially ignore Rummel's "estimates". The exception is Cambodia, for which the data dispersion has always been pretty low, and, accordingly, Rummel's estimates are reasonably precise.
Third, as Barbara Harff noted, Rummel's goal was not to provide the exact statistics, for even the amended data set would lead to essentially the same conclusion about "democratic peace". Therefore, Harff doesn't believes high precision of the data is neither required nor expected from Rummel. Therefore, although Rummel is a good expert in his field, the figures he provides cannot be trusted, especially for the countries or the events where a large number of contradicting figures were published, for Rummel just takes them all and obtains the average without analyzing reliability of each figure.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:29, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
Are Rummel's numbers really so far from other estimates?
From our article on Democide#Killings by Communist states
- Rummel gives an estimate for communist democide including famine of 110 million, later revised to 148 million, with an estimated error range of "a probable order of magnitude", which means that it could be a lot lower or a lot higher.
- Stéphane Courtois gave a "rough approximation, based on unofficial estimates" approaching 100 million killed.
- Martin Malia came up with "between 85 million and 100 million."
- Benjamin Valentino estimated 21 million to 70 million gave in the Soviet Union, People's Republic of China and Cambodia alone and stated that the "highest end of the plausible range of deaths attributed to communist regimes" was "up to 110 million."
- Steven Rosefielde's number is "approximately 60 million people and perhaps tens of millions more."
- Matthew White published estimates 70 million, including "people who died under communist regimes from execution, labor camps, famine, ethnic cleansing, and desperate flight in leaky boats", with 26 million people additionally dying in "Communist-inspired wars."
- Stephen Kotkin estimated 65 million people killed intentionally with "even more" from starvation as a result of social engineering"
Several commentators on Rummel's estimates have noted that estimates for the holocaust (which we have far better numbers for) might be 20% or maybe even 40% off either way, while at the same time completely rejecting the claims of holocaust deniers that the estimates are a hundred times or more too large. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:27, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- There is one fundamental problem with that. The estimates are made by the authors who (i) consider "Communist mass killing" as a single separate category, and (ii) use the figure of "killed" to convey some specific idea (usually, that Communism was worse than Nazism). However, this view is not supported by majority of other authors, and the criticism is not like "You say Communism killed 100 million, but, according to my data, they killed just 20 million". In reality the criticism is focused on the very approach: the very idea to provide some cumulative figure is considered as flawed and politically motivated. Thus some critics of Courtois note that he implicitly assumes that some "generic Communism" existed, whereas that is not correct, and each mass mortality event in Communist states had its own roots, and they were mostly unconnected to each other, so it would be deeply incorrect to combine them into the singe category. Other authors argue that the very term "victims of Communism" is vague, and inclusion/exclusion of some deaths into that category depends mostly on political views of each concrete author. And most importantly, an overwhelming majority of country experts just ignore the above authors. Thus, majority of scholars studying Chinese famine (which was responsible for nearly a half of "Communist death toll") do not use the term "killing" at all. Instead, they write that the famine was a result on a combination of natural factors and strategic blunders of Communist leadership, and it was just the last major famine in a series of famines that were occurring in China regularly, and they apply the same language to Chinese famine as to the Bengal or Irish famine (which are not considered mass killing at all).
- In other words, the estimates provided by you are made by the authors who consider "Communist death toll" a separate category, and who use it to draw some specific conclusions from that. Taking into account that all those authors but Courtois faced almost no criticism, we may conclude they either express mainstream view or a small minority view. If the first hypothesis is correct, they must be being widely cited by the authors writing about each separate "mass killing" event (such as Chinese famine, Volga famine, the Great Purge, ets). If the second hypothesis is correct, they are expected to be ignored by country experts. My analysis demonstrates that they are fully ignored by such authors as O'Grada (Chinese famine), Wheatcroft, Ellman (USSR), Kiernan (Cambodia), etc. Moreover, most cases when the Black Book is cited by country experts, that happens because Werth's or Margolin's chapters of USSR or PRC are sited. However, both these authors severely criticized Courtois for his introduction, and they even publicly threatened to withdraw their name from the book. Which is by no means an indication of mainsreamness of the Courolis' views.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:55, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- ...and that is why the piece of text that you copy-pasted from the Mass killings under Communist regimes article is not more that ideologically charged minority POV that does not reflect the view of the scholarly community, and, therefore, it should be put into a proper context to bring it into accordance with our NPOV policy.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:20, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Also, as a minor point, Valentino explicitly cites Rummel for the 110 million "upperbound" figure (while Valentino's own figures are considerably lower than Rummel's). It would be misleading to construe that as Valentino "corroborating" Rummel. In addition, Wikipedia probably should not be citing the self-published blogger/author Matthew White, who has no qualifications, academic or otherwise, relevant to any of the countries that he is ostensibly researching.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:53, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- ...and that is why the piece of text that you copy-pasted from the Mass killings under Communist regimes article is not more that ideologically charged minority POV that does not reflect the view of the scholarly community, and, therefore, it should be put into a proper context to bring it into accordance with our NPOV policy.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:20, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Valentino's main contribution is a concept of "strategic mass killings", which is aimed to explain (and predict) the onset of mass killings. He is not, and he never claimed to be, an expert in figures. Like Rummel's "democide", Valentino's theorizing is not affected by moderate errors in figures. A bigger question is that some deaths that are considered as "excess deaths" by most scholars are claimed to result from "mass killings" by him.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:22, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Comment Incidentally, few days ago relative of mine mentioned somewhat weird number victims for Czechoslovakia (65000), which is order of magnitude higher than any number I saw in recent scholarship. Basic source for such number is the very author we discuss here. Sources he uses for Czechoslovakia estimate (I list them on the article talk page) are all older than 1989 (before primary documents were accessible to scholars) - so wild guess at best. Note research in this field of study was really fruitful after 1989, which is not reflected even in later revision of his book (1997). In short: other issues aside, work of this author is so out-dated, I can´t recommend its use in any way other than an attributed opinion (where due). Pavlor (talk) 20:12, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- The problem is more serious: if some author provides outdated figures, usually, more recent data are available. However, no fresh data on a "global Communist democide death toll" are available, which implies the very concept is beyond the scope of scholarly community.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:58, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- This is difficult then, logically speaking we would want to explain this in the article, but if it is so far outside mainstream scholarship that nobody even bothers to write about it, we can't do so! Boynamedsue (talk) 10:25, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- The problem is more serious: if some author provides outdated figures, usually, more recent data are available. However, no fresh data on a "global Communist democide death toll" are available, which implies the very concept is beyond the scope of scholarly community.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:58, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
Tentative conclusion Version 1:
I propose that we summarize the above discussion as follows:
Rudolph Rummel is reliable with attribution in the following areas:
- Democide (intentional murder by a government)
- Democratic peace theory (few or no wars between democracies)
- Mortacide (murder by a government through negligence, incompetence or indifference)
- Democratic famine theory (few or no famines in democracies, deliberate or not)
All of these theories are controversial, but not fringe.
- Rummel is also a reliable source with attribution in the far less controversial statistics areas covered in his books Applied Factor Analysis and Understanding Correlation.
Rudolph Rummel was a political scientist with an interest in history, not a historian. Rummel made little or no attempt to keep his numbers updated as new information became available and stated that his numbers would support his theories even if they were ten times smaller or ten times larger. Thus Rummel should not be used as a source for specific numeric death estimates outside of discussions of his theories.
Agree? Disagree? Any suggested changes? --Guy Macon (talk) 15:15, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- Generally yes, but something is a little bit ambiguous. What do you mean under "Democide" and "Mortacide"? The actual phenomenae or theories? I am asking because such phenomenon as the Holocaust really existed, whereas "democide" seems to cover both actual killings and the deaths that either never occurred (like the deaths of tens of million GULAG victims), or were not considered as "killing" by other authors?
- I also am unaware of any "democratic famine theory".
- The second question. If we come to some common conclusion, how will that affect the articles that use Rummel as a source? Maybe, we need to invite the users who are working on those articles to join this discussion?--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:34, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- Re: "The actual phenomenae or theories?", theories. Feel free to suggest clearer wording.
- Re: "I also am unaware of any democratic famine theory" please pick a label that you think describes the theory described in Rudolph Rummel#Famine, economic growth, and happiness. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:07, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- I think this is a reasonable appraisal. I would be very uncomfortable with the use of his figures, but his other work seems to be fine with attribution. Boynamedsue (talk) 21:27, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- I would generally support. His political theories are notable, but I don't think Rummel's death estimates should be cited either. (t · c) buidhe 22:14, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- Rummel is considered a "first generation genocide scholar", and his democide concept is somewhat obsolete. Therefore, his democide theory should be discussed in a context of more recent studies, whereas his figures should not be used at all.--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:02, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
Tentative conclusion Version 2:
I propose that we summarize the above discussion as follows:
Rudolph Rummel is reliable with attribution in the following areas:
- Government intentionally murdering its own people (what Rummel called "Democide")
- Government unintentionally murdering its own people through negligence, incompetence or indifference (what Rummel called "Mortacide")
- Few or no wars between democracies (what Rummel called "Democratic peace theory")
- Few or no famines in democracies, deliberate or not (in Rummel's words "no democratically free people have ever had a famine. None.")
All of these theories are controversial, but not fringe.
- Rummel is also a reliable source with attribution in the far less controversial statistics areas covered in his books Applied Factor Analysis and Understanding Correlation.
Rudolph Rummel was a political scientist with an interest in history, not a historian. Rummel made little or no attempt to keep his numbers updated as new information became available and stated that his numbers would support his theories even if they were ten times smaller or ten times larger. Thus Rummel should not be used as a source for specific numeric death estimates outside of discussions of his theories.
Note: there was an objection to the label I previously picked for "few or no famines in democracies" but nobody suggested an alternative. The phrasing "In Rummel's words..." is clunky compared to "What Rummel called...". Please speak up if you have better wording. This part of Rummel's theories is at [ https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COMM.3.19.05.HTM ] with the title "Democracy? Prosperous, and Never a Famine".
Agree? Disagree? Any suggested changes? --Guy Macon (talk) 15:01, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- "Reliable with attribution" means it is reliable for his own opinion, right? If yes, he falls into the WP:NEWSBLOG category when he writes not about factor analysis. With regard to his works on factor analysis, I see no reason to consider them less reliable that other scientific works. His works on factor analysis are widely cited, and, even according to our strictest criteria, they should be considered top quality reliable sources.
- In addition, I am not sure if mortacide is a legitimate term at all. Rummel determined intentionality in a very unusual way, so even the death that are usually considered an unintentional result of the authorities activity are considered as intentional by him.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:55, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- I completely agree with the summary by Guy Macon. But thinking logically, if his works in these areas are RS, then his estimates of deaths (the numbers) can and should be cited on any pages, probably with explicit attribution to Rummel. This is good. My very best wishes (talk) 15:15, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- I apologize for being late to this discussion. I do not follow this page closely but I was recently linked to this thread by Paul Siebert in a discussion at Mass killings under communist regimes, where I am an active editor. I would say that Rummel and his figures are not the majority view on that topic and fall in the "significant minority" bucket for weight purposes generally (the three buckets being majority, significant minority, and fringe). As such, like all significant minority sources, he is appropriate to be cited with in-text attribution along with other significant minority (and majority) views, rather than being being used to assert facts in Wikipedia's voice. In other words, citing his numbers in stand-alone list articles with tables of numbers that have no room for in-text attribution are probably not appropriate, because that is essentially an assertion of fact in Wikipedia's voice (unless the assertion of fact is specifically about Rummel himself or Rummel's work itself). Citing his numbers in embedded lists in an article, as is done at Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes#Estimates may be appropriate, given how it is worded and the context he is being cited for. I think that is very close to Guy Macon's summary, although I am very uncomfortable with blanket determinations being made on sources on this noticeboard, since context on their exact use in an article is crucial information. AmateurEditor (talk) 22:43, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
- Ultimately there's no evidence that Rummel has a reputation for fact-checking or accuracy in terms of his statistics (and some to the contrary). He was not a demographer or historian trying to create the most accurate estimates possible of the death toll for different events. Therefore, since such careful estimates do exist for most or all of the events he evaluated, these sources should be cited instead. (t · c) buidhe 07:18, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- You are saying that Rudolph Rummel, a "political scientist and professor at the Indiana University, Yale University, and University of Hawaiʻi", who has published multiple books on the subject of mass killing/democide through a reputable publishing house (Transaction Publishers), whose figures have been cited by other respected academics as worthy of consideration, with at least one explicitly saying that his figures are within the bounds of what is plausible (Benjamin Valentino, on communist mass killing here), has no evidence of a "reputation for fact-checking or accuracy"? I think you're wrong. AmateurEditor (talk) 09:53, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- As said above, Rummel wasn't in the business of making the most precise or accurate estimates of these sorts of figures; his contributions were in theorizing. This is explained very well at the top of this section, which you've chosen to ignore. You're misrepresenting Valentino (who, similar to Rummel, is not a historian or demographer, but at least uses more up-to-date figures). He is hardly cited at all in scholarship for his death estimates. Please stop WP:BLUDGEONING.
Also pinging participants of the discussion below: Bob not snob, Boynamedsue, NightHeron, Slatersteven. (t · c) buidhe 18:29, 14 February 2021 (UTC)- I'm not misrepresenting Valentino. One response to you in this thread is WP:BLUDGEONING to you? Is pinging sympathetic editors not WP:CANVASSING? AmateurEditor (talk) 20:41, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Pinging all participants to a related discussion is not canvassing. Most of your bludgeoning is below for all to see. (t · c) buidhe 20:49, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- What "discussion below"?Slatersteven (talk) 10:38, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- I'm not misrepresenting Valentino. One response to you in this thread is WP:BLUDGEONING to you? Is pinging sympathetic editors not WP:CANVASSING? AmateurEditor (talk) 20:41, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- As said above, Rummel wasn't in the business of making the most precise or accurate estimates of these sorts of figures; his contributions were in theorizing. This is explained very well at the top of this section, which you've chosen to ignore. You're misrepresenting Valentino (who, similar to Rummel, is not a historian or demographer, but at least uses more up-to-date figures). He is hardly cited at all in scholarship for his death estimates. Please stop WP:BLUDGEONING.
- You are saying that Rudolph Rummel, a "political scientist and professor at the Indiana University, Yale University, and University of Hawaiʻi", who has published multiple books on the subject of mass killing/democide through a reputable publishing house (Transaction Publishers), whose figures have been cited by other respected academics as worthy of consideration, with at least one explicitly saying that his figures are within the bounds of what is plausible (Benjamin Valentino, on communist mass killing here), has no evidence of a "reputation for fact-checking or accuracy"? I think you're wrong. AmateurEditor (talk) 09:53, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
The above discussion presents a strong case that Rummel uses historical estimates to support his agenda, without adequate regard for their accuracy. NightHeron (talk) 19:45, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- I think Guy Macon's summary is fair and accurate. Also we are at the point that there are newer secondary sources analyzing and incorporating Rummel's earlier work, and they are probably more to date in terms of accuracy. Estimates have progressed since the 80s and 90s.--Bob not snob (talk) 07:50, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
Voice of America (VOA)
Hello, Voice of America is not a reliable source?, according to user:CommanderWaterford. Thanks 15:08, 9 February 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Taung Tan (talk • contribs) 15:08, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Taung Tan, first of all I would ask you to discuss Article Content Disputes at the Article Talk Page as you did several times before.It is by far not the first time I see you questioning my edits, you need to understand that Article you have created are not your OWN articles and that they of course will be checked and edited - by me and by several others. Wikipedia is not a platform for free speech, it wants itself to be an encyclopaedia with a CLEAR neutral point of view, for very good reasons. None of your recently created articles were free of at least dubious sources and every first version was with a clear political intention. Secondly VOA is related to Myanmar Protests or the current Myanmar Government not really a reliable, neutral source since VOA is financed by the United States and I am sure that no one really can deny that the U.S. government has own particular interests in this issue. The other source you gave was - once again - from a clear political intentions driven medium. CommanderWaterford (talk) 16:32, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Suggesting that VOA a dubious source and is just as bad as other state propaganda organisations like RT or CGTN is disingenuous. VOA maintains a firewall between government and itself and is widely respected for its accuracy. Despite recent turmoil, I don't think that saying that it is "unreliable" is a fair assessment. What specific claims are being contested? Are they in any way exceptional or not made by other sources? Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:52, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Agree with Hemiauchenia; the US Gov't's relationship with VOA is nothing like RT's with the Kremlin. GPinkerton (talk) 16:54, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- @CommanderWaterford: I believe you are mistaken. Government funding does not in and of itself have an impact on a sources's neutrality or reliability as wikipedia understands it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:57, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Horse Eye's Back, Honestly I cannot believe this - point me to the policy/essay proving this please. If you have a look at the article about VOA you will see a separate section with controversies regarding their independency. CommanderWaterford (talk) 17:10, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- You can’t believe that a source can both accept government money and be independent? Thats hard to fathom given that almost all of our perennial reliable sources receive government funding in some way whether it be grants, subsidies, or tax preferences. A lack of editorial independence would be a problem, but thats not the argument you have made. I would suggest reviewing WP:NPOV and WP:RS. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:15, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- (Eg, the BBC has long proven that you can have a state-backed media enterprise that retains high independence from influence of the state. The state sees a well-funded information service like the BBC as necessary to support an educated society but keeps its hands out of influencing how it handles topics to avoid the COI). --Masem (t) 17:21, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- In this instance the state doesn't give any funding to the BBC; it's all offloaded onto TV-owners as the licence fee. GPinkerton (talk) 17:23, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, license fees which the state legislated and legally obligates TV-owners to pay backed by the full invested violence of state institutions... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:25, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Car-owners also need driver's licences for which they are legally obligated to pay backed by the full invested violence of state institutions. The government of the day is forever threatening to reduce or abolish the fee whenever it feels itself unpopular. There used to be dog licences too. As I understand it, VOA's backing comes out of general taxation, so it is rather more the party organ than the BBC could ever be. For both institutions, the international news (i.e. the World Service, etc.) is directed at a non-domestic audience and is unlikely to be influenced by state policies of any government and most unlikely to take a contrarian angle. GPinkerton (talk) 17:39, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- You’re splitting hairs which don’t exist to make absurdly contrarian points like "In this instance the state doesn't give any funding to the BBC” when the statement you’re disagreeing with from Masem uses "state-backed” rather than “state funded” so your pedantry is not only unwarranted but based on a misreading of another editor’s argument. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:24, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Car-owners also need driver's licences for which they are legally obligated to pay backed by the full invested violence of state institutions. The government of the day is forever threatening to reduce or abolish the fee whenever it feels itself unpopular. There used to be dog licences too. As I understand it, VOA's backing comes out of general taxation, so it is rather more the party organ than the BBC could ever be. For both institutions, the international news (i.e. the World Service, etc.) is directed at a non-domestic audience and is unlikely to be influenced by state policies of any government and most unlikely to take a contrarian angle. GPinkerton (talk) 17:39, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, license fees which the state legislated and legally obligates TV-owners to pay backed by the full invested violence of state institutions... Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:25, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- In this instance the state doesn't give any funding to the BBC; it's all offloaded onto TV-owners as the licence fee. GPinkerton (talk) 17:23, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- (Eg, the BBC has long proven that you can have a state-backed media enterprise that retains high independence from influence of the state. The state sees a well-funded information service like the BBC as necessary to support an educated society but keeps its hands out of influencing how it handles topics to avoid the COI). --Masem (t) 17:21, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- You can’t believe that a source can both accept government money and be independent? Thats hard to fathom given that almost all of our perennial reliable sources receive government funding in some way whether it be grants, subsidies, or tax preferences. A lack of editorial independence would be a problem, but thats not the argument you have made. I would suggest reviewing WP:NPOV and WP:RS. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:15, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Horse Eye's Back, Honestly I cannot believe this - point me to the policy/essay proving this please. If you have a look at the article about VOA you will see a separate section with controversies regarding their independency. CommanderWaterford (talk) 17:10, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Suggesting that VOA a dubious source and is just as bad as other state propaganda organisations like RT or CGTN is disingenuous. VOA maintains a firewall between government and itself and is widely respected for its accuracy. Despite recent turmoil, I don't think that saying that it is "unreliable" is a fair assessment. What specific claims are being contested? Are they in any way exceptional or not made by other sources? Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:52, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- It is better to specify which Wiki article is being discussed. Where do you want to use this source?-Renat (talk) 18:05, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Dear all, user:CommanderWaterford, is a vindictive user, have added negative tags on every articles that I created. Do justice to me? Please help me... See pls Talk:Khin Thiri Thet Mon, User talk:Hintha#Notabality of Khin Thiri Thet Mon, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Khin Thiri Thet Mon, and [129] even that The Irrawaddy and Myanmar Now are the most RS of my country. He is always looking for problems on my articles. Why people are using "their experience on Wikipedia" as a weapon ????? What is the community value of these over actions? Taung Tan (talk) 18:11, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Maybe this will help you - WP:HELPAFD.--Renat (talk) 19:43, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- RenatUK I don’t mean AfD. It appears to be negative tag-bombing to me, for the article to be tagged with {{UnreliableSources}}) when there is no information questioned at all. [130], [131] and [132]. Taung Tan (talk) 02:04, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- I think there probably has been a misunderstanding here. It would be wrong to just say "this is a propaganda machine" and "this is not". The burden of proof for policy violations lies on the accuser, not the accused. I think everyone kind of just needs to calm down here, even me ahaha. We cannot have civilized discussion when there are constant assuming bad faith and negative attacks and whatnot. Aasim (talk) 06:18, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- RenatUK I don’t mean AfD. It appears to be negative tag-bombing to me, for the article to be tagged with {{UnreliableSources}}) when there is no information questioned at all. [130], [131] and [132]. Taung Tan (talk) 02:04, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- Maybe this will help you - WP:HELPAFD.--Renat (talk) 19:43, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- VOA is reliable its similar to BBC though Government funded there are editorial independence contrary to government funded press in various dictatorships --Shrike (talk) 09:07, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
VOA is not like the BBC. Among US media, NPR and PBS are most similar to the BBC, as public broadcasters that are considered relatively independent from their governments. However, media such as Voice of America, and the various "Radio Free X" outlets are in a different category. Voice of America, Radio Free Europe, etc. were established explicitly as propaganda outlets, and were openly run as such for decades. Voice of America's official goal was to present a positive image of the United States to the world, while Radio Free Europe and Radio Liberty (which were covertly controlled by the CIA until the early 1970s) were much more bluntly tasked with broadcasting negative stories about the Soviet Bloc over shortwave radio (so that people in the Soviet Bloc would be able to listen in). The history is detailed here. Voice of America and Radio Free Europe, Radio Liberty and Radio Free Asia have gone through various reorganizations over time, but they still are much more tied to the US government than NPR or PBS. Voice of America's editorial section explicitly states that it reflects the views of the US government. There is a supposed "firewall" between the news section and the US government. However, as a former long-time (35 years) Voice of America correspondent / foreign bureau chief Dan Robinson has explained in the Columbia Journalism Review,
The impression often given in media reports is that programming by VOA and other government-funded media is not influenced, directed, or shaped by foreign policy objectives of any administration. This is just absurd. Among other things, the revered firewall certainly didn't stop officials from standing up the Extremism Watch Desk.
During the Trump administration, there was a scandal over the extent to which Trump tried to overtly influence VOA, but as Dan Robinson explains, government influence in VOA reporting precedes the Trump administration (though he was somewhat blunter about it). The influence of the US government on Voice of America is fairly apparent in the types of topics it focuses on. For example, VOA prominently advertises its section, "VOA News on Iran" (the only other regional news section it advertises on its banner is "US News"). Whether or not VOA should be used as a source depends on the subject. In general, I would say that editors should be aware of its biases and connection to the US government. At times, in-line attribution may be appropriate. For contentious claims about subjects the US government has a strong interest in (particularly with regards to countries like Iran and Cuba), VOA should probably only be used with in-line attribution. -Thucydides411 (talk) 13:20, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- I want to add that the statement above, that it reflects the views of the US government, is taken out of context. The full page says
- "The Voice Of America will present the policies of the United States clearly and effectively, and will also present responsible discussions and opinion on these policies.
- (from the VOA Charter, Public Law 94-350)
- As called for in its charter, the Voice of America presents differing points of view on a wide variety of issues. This includes the broadcast of editorials expressing the policies of the United States government, as well as essays on American ideals and institutions," specifying editorials, not news reporting. Zoozaz1 talk 04:09, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- I didn't take anything out of context. I explained that the editorials explicitly represent the views of the US government, while there's a supposed "firewall" between the government and the news section. However, as Dan Robinson (a long-time VOA correspondent and foreign bureau chief) has explained in the Columbia Journalism Review, that "firewall" is not effective, and there is significant government influence on the VOA news section. -Thucydides411 (talk) 08:14, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- I would certainly think as in general for any state-owned media that if I see an article from state-owned media that appears overly pandering and presenting a case not corroborated and in disagreement with other RSes reporting on the same, there's an issue, and we can safely ignore it under IAR/UNDUE/FRINGE reasoning and use the other RSes. If it is the only article making a pandering claim and we have nothing that is "counter" to it, then inclusion should be discussed on the talk page (usually a claim by only one source usually isn't enough for inclusion). There are ways to deal with a situation described as a potential issue here as we'd have for any source and moreso as state-backed media in terms of its lack of independence to the state, but we don't have any clear evidence of a massive bias problem to mark VOA wholesale as a problem. --Masem (t) 15:55, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- I didn't take anything out of context. I explained that the editorials explicitly represent the views of the US government, while there's a supposed "firewall" between the government and the news section. However, as Dan Robinson (a long-time VOA correspondent and foreign bureau chief) has explained in the Columbia Journalism Review, that "firewall" is not effective, and there is significant government influence on the VOA news section. -Thucydides411 (talk) 08:14, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- VOA is like the BBC, specifically the BBC World Service. The US doesn't really have a government-owned domestic broadcaster like the BBC (PBS and NPR are very different). Furthermore, while Trump tried to ruin VOA like he tried to ruin most of the rest of the government, his attempt failed and his people have been removed [133]. - GretLomborg (talk) 20:36, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- VOA was created explicitly as a Cold War propaganda outlet, in order to project a positive image of the US. Trump tried much more explicitly than other recent presidents to direct government broadcasters, but as the long-time senior VOA reporter / foreign bureau chief Dan Robinson has explained, every administration exerts influence over VOA's reporting. This is how he sums up the situation at VOA and Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty:
Government-paid journalists can no longer pretend they are just like their friends at CBS, NBC, AP, NPR, Reuters, and others, or expect to be seen as such by those working for non-government media. That’s simply living in delusion.
- This is a pretty harsh judgment coming from someone who was at VOA for 35 years and who held senior roles in the organization. Note how he separates VOA / Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty outlets from the more independent NPR. NPR and PBS - not VOA - are the US' closest equivalents to the BBC. -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:52, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- VOA was created explicitly as a Cold War propaganda outlet, in order to project a positive image of the US. Trump tried much more explicitly than other recent presidents to direct government broadcasters, but as the long-time senior VOA reporter / foreign bureau chief Dan Robinson has explained, every administration exerts influence over VOA's reporting. This is how he sums up the situation at VOA and Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty:
- Obviously an RS.My very best wishes (talk) 15:17, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- I know, that it's reliable for Europe and Central Asia related articles, not sure about other areas. But I lean towards "generally reliable".--Renat (talk) 15:46, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- "Generally reliable, but in-line attribution may be preferred when the topic is one where the US government has a strong interest" seems to sum up the situation, from what I've seen so far. XOR'easter (talk) 17:08, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- Prefer in-text attribution in reporting about countries with ongoing conflicts with the US. --MarioGom (talk) 22:38, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- VOA is a reliable source. It does has some unusual aspects because it was created specifically as a reliable source for regions where independent journalism was banned (e.g. the Soviet Union spent a lot of effort trying to jam it), but that doesn't really matter to us. What does matter to us is that it follows typical RS journalism standards in its news reporting. - GretLomborg (talk) 20:36, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- VOA's primary purpose was not to provide reliable reporting. It's purpose was to project a positive image of the US into the Soviet Bloc. Accuracy was secondary (if at all important). It still serves a similar purpose with respect to countries like Iran, as is obvious if you go to voanews.com and look at the masthead (where "VOA News on Iran" is one of the four main topics). Of all the places in the world that have poor press freedom, why do you think Iran is the country that VOA focuses on? -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:59, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Is this source ok to support a major claim in the lead of an article?
This statement is currently in the lead of People's Mujahedin of Iran:
[1]"By 1983, Masud Rajavi had sided with Saddam Hussein in the Iran–Iraq War in exchange for financial support, a decision that was viewed as treason by the vast majority of Iranians and that destroyed the MEK's appeal in it s homeland"
We had a RfC debating if this should be removed from the lead of the article or not. Eggishorn closed it in "no consensus" and suggested to ask at RSN instead.
The source used to support this statement says "By 1983, Massud Rajavi had come to side with Saddam Hussein in the war in exchange for financial support."
Is this statement ok for the lead? or would it be better to have this moved to the body of the article instead? - MA Javadi (talk) 17:33, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- Is the latter half of the sentence, "... a decision that was viewed as treason by the vast majority of Iranians and that destroyed the MEK's appeal in it s homeland", supported by the reference on the pages specified (or elsewhere)? I realize I am not directly answering your question, but this point might be relevant. Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/his/him] 17:39, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- It depends, is it just Ostrovar's opinion or is it shared by other researchers? (t · c) buidhe 00:35, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- Buidhe - I agree. Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/his/him] 14:34, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- It depends, is it just Ostrovar's opinion or is it shared by other researchers? (t · c) buidhe 00:35, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- The second half of the sentence (
a decision that was viewed as treason by the vast majority of Iranians and that destroyed the MEK's appeal in its homeland
) strikes me as WP:EXCEPTIONAL, especially the very last part; summarizing the opinion of something as "treason" is very strong wording, as is the claim that this one action destroyed their support in their homeland. If it really is so important for those specific reasons, it should be easy to find additional sources to settle the issue. --Aquillion (talk) 08:03, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Markworthen: No, it's not supported by this reference. There are other references that (inconsistently) describe the effects MEK-Hussein cooperation had on the MEK's popularity, but they talk about events from 1986 onwards (Hussein-MEK collaboration post-1986 is already in the lead of the article), and not 1983 (which is the date this reference is pointing to).
- @Buidhe: These are the only other sources found about MEK-Hussein collaboration before 1986, but some are vague about the type of collaboration and none talk about the effects this had on the MEK's reputation.
Since 1982, the MEK had received substantial financial support from the nemesis of the Iranian people, Saddam Hussein.
— TerronomicsAfter invading Iran in 1980, Saddam Hussein began funding the MeK to extend the reach of the NCRI’s European publicity campaign opposing the Islamic Republic of Iran (IRI) and to secure any intelligence that the MeK collected regarding Iran.
— RAND reportRajavi fled Tehran for Paris in 1981...At a meeting arranged by Mr. Cheysson [French foreign minister], Rajavi and Iraqi Foreign Minister Tariq Aziz signed a deal in which the MEK would receive cash and backing from Baghdad in exchange for help in the war against Iran. Between 1982 and 1985 Rajavi visited Baghdad six times and formed a relationship with Saddam Hussein, who helped the MEK set up camps in Iraq to train Iranians for sabotage.
— WSJ by Amir Taheri
- @Aquillion: there are mixed opinions that talk about the MEK's popularity after its collaboration with Hussein, but none refer to anything before 1986 (the year that the MEK put its base in Iraq).
- What do y'all think? Should this sentence be in the lead of the article, or in the body of the article? - MA Javadi (talk) 18:22, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
- It is a long lede (introduction) to begin with, so one option might be to make the lede more concise overall. Whether or not the lede is tightened up, I would remove or change the second half of the sentence. Perhaps something like: "By 1983 Masud Rajavi had sided with Saddam Hussein in the Iran–Iraq War in exchange for financial support, a decision that decreased MEK's appeal in Iran." Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/his/him] 14:40, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- I found two sources to support the statement:
- This OUP book says "While the Islamic Republic came out of the war more powerful than ever, the MeK lost any legitimacy within Iran. To this day, the MeK's name is synonymous with treason for many Iranians".
- This book by Hurst Publishers says "The MKO leadership first fled to France and then, somewhat imprudently, relocated to Iraq in 1986. There, in the words of one historian, they completed their transformation from a political movement into a cult. More important, as far as ordinary Iranians were concerned, was their decision to enjoy Saddam Hussein's patronage at a time when Iran and Iraq were at war. This simple fact made their claim to be the official opposition difficult to justify. Most Iranians, whatever their feelings towards the Islamic Republic, could not side with an organization that was effectively committing treason." Fences&Windows 11:52, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Fences and windows: Your two sources talk about from 1986 onwards (which are already covered in the lead of the article). The source we are discussing here says "by 1983". So we are trying to determine if this only source talking about 1983 is enough to have this in the lead of the article. Can you comment about that please? - MA Javadi (talk) 16:37, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- I don't think the date, whether 1983 or 1986, is the focus of the dispute. The key parts of the disputed section are the MEK's alliance with Hussein's Iraqi regime causing a precipitous decline in support and being viewed as treason by many/most Iranians, which those two reliable book sources have verified. It is also such a central part of the organisation's history that it needs to be in the lead. Fences&Windows 16:49, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- I do think that 1983/1986 is also important and the bit about 1983 should be dropped as WP:UNDUE if it can't be confirmed by more sources. (t · c) buidhe 21:31, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- OK, we definitely need to treat the two parts separately:
- 1. "By 1983, Masud Rajavi had sided with Saddam Hussein in the Iran–Iraq War in exchange for financial support" is still disputed. We know Rajavi met Tariq Aziz in Paris in January 1983 to sign a treaty [134] and this is already in the body of the article. That supports a date of 1983 for cooperating with Hussein's Iraqi regime. Financing is another question, but Piazza (1994) says "This meeting was highly significant in that it marked the beginning of what was to become a long-term relationship between Baghdad and the Mojahedin, one which would guarantee future Mojahedin funding and military support".[135] Maybe "In 1983, Masud Rajavi began to cooperate with Saddam Hussein's regime after a meeting in Paris, leading to the MEK joining Iraqi forces in the Iran–Iraq War in exchange for financial support".
- I do think that 1983/1986 is also important and the bit about 1983 should be dropped as WP:UNDUE if it can't be confirmed by more sources. (t · c) buidhe 21:31, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- I don't think the date, whether 1983 or 1986, is the focus of the dispute. The key parts of the disputed section are the MEK's alliance with Hussein's Iraqi regime causing a precipitous decline in support and being viewed as treason by many/most Iranians, which those two reliable book sources have verified. It is also such a central part of the organisation's history that it needs to be in the lead. Fences&Windows 16:49, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Fences and windows: Your two sources talk about from 1986 onwards (which are already covered in the lead of the article). The source we are discussing here says "by 1983". So we are trying to determine if this only source talking about 1983 is enough to have this in the lead of the article. Can you comment about that please? - MA Javadi (talk) 16:37, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- 2. "a decision that was viewed as treason by the vast majority of Iranians and that destroyed the MEK's appeal in its homeland" is definitely supported, including by Piazza: "At a period when the war with Iraq was taking a heavy human and financial toll on the Iranian masses, the Mojahedin’s move to Iraq and collaboration with Saddam Hussein was viewed by the Mojahedin’s supposed constituency inside the Islamic Republic with suspicion and scorn at best. It remains a specter which haunts the Mojahedin to the present day." It should be retained in some form. Maybe "The decision to side with Iraq was viewed as treason by many Iranians and caused lasting harm to the MEK's reputation in Iran." Fences&Windows 13:30, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
Fences and windows 1. There are a number of sources that document Saddam-MEK relationship in 1983, they were presented in this RfC. Several of those sources specifically mention financial support. There are no scholarly sources that contradict this assertion.
Since 1982, the MEK had received substantial financial support from the nemesis of the Iranian people, Saddam Hussein.
— Terrornomics By Sean S. Costigan, David Gold
By 1983, Massud Rajavi had come to side with Saddam Hussein in the war in exchange for financial support.
— Vanguard of the Imam, Oxford University Press
The issue came to the fore in January 1983 when, in the midst of some of the most intense fighting of the war, Rajavi held a highly publicized meeting with Tariq Aziz, Iraq's deputy prime minister. Many observers suspected that it was predominantly Iraqi money that funded the expensive projects undertaken by the Mojahedin
— The Iranian Mojahedin, Yale University Press
After invading Iran in 1980, Saddam Hussein began funding the MeK to extend the reach of the NCRI’s European publicity campaign opposing the Islamic Republic of Iran (IRI) and to secure any intelligence that the MeK collected regarding Iran.
— RAND report
2. I agree. The exact wording can be teased out at the article's talk page and I see you already proposed that.VR talk 00:39, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- The Vanguard of the Imam source is the only source specifically talking about 1983 MEK/Hussein relations. This means we have a controversial statement supported by one source in the lede of the article. That is problematic. Stefka Bulgaria (talk) 10:52, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
References
The Irrawaddy
Hello all, I'm very tired and this is my last discussion. Firstly, user:CommanderWaterford, a vindictive user, have added negative tags on every articles that I created. It appears to be negative tag-bombing to me, for the article to be tagged with {{UnreliableSources}} when there is used The Irrawaddy as source and no information questioned at all. [136], [137] and [138] and many more today. He is always looking for problems on my articles. Do justice to me? Hay guy, what is your problem? Why do you always bite me? Would you be happy if I left from Wikipedia ? I know you hate me because of my user page. This is my retirement.
- Secondly, He says that The Irrawaddy is not reliable ! The Irrawaddy is second biggest media of our country after The Myanmar Times. Yes! Long long ago, "the media was produced by former Burmese activists who fled violent crackdowns on anti-military protests in 1988, it has always been closely associated with the pro-democracy movement". (the founder activists were retired from this media company nowadays and some have dided). But now, The Irrawaddy stands as independent media and a leading source of reliable news. The Irrawaddy may be not reliable on dictatorship news report and fairly neutral point-of-view reports on the military's moves. However, The Irrawaddy's is strong-pretty reliable on other news reports and categorys. Burmese editors will not accept this at all. Therefore, I would like to invite our respected and oldest Burmese editor @Hintha: to participate in this discussion. Pls see above my discussion wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Voice of America (VOA) and Talk:2021 Myanmar coup d'état#Some good, current major-media sources for further information. So sorry, my English is not good and I cant explain very well but as much as i could. Thanks Taung Tan (talk) 18:24, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Taung Tan: Most other editors have agreed with you, whether it be on your sourcing choices or whether your articles are notable. It would be a shame for you to retire due to the actions of a single user. That said I think that The Irrawaddy is a usable source, as it is not subject to oversight by the Myanmar govt and is a well established and respected publication. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:54, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you for being on my side. I did my best to help Wikipedia as a Burmese speaking editor even though my country is now in the darkness of military rule. I hope I didn't do nothing wrong on Wikipedia. I've fullknowledge on Wikipedia's general notability guidelines. I can no longer editing on Wikipedia anymore because I'm very tired. Taung Tan (talk) 19:10, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- Well Taung Tan, don't know if you do yourself a favour here - no, I am definitely not happy if you leave Wikipedia and I (next to several other editors) tried to give you hints and advices how to improve your edits. You seem to revert almost every (!) edit of others editors which seem not be going into exactly your personal opinion, yesterday you reversed twice mergers from very experienced editors with comments barely acceptable. You are threatening editors if they are reverting with statements like "I know exactly what I am doing, take me to AfD, don't bother my time" etc. etc. What you need to see is that an article you created is not "your" article since this is a collaborative platform and one of the five pillars of Wikipedia is to be strictly neutral. Your article creations happened due to the very unhappy events in Myanmar and I personally do not favor at all this military coup BUT since this is an encyclopaedia we want to have accurate, reliable information - and I for myself added several of your statements with by far better sources (e.g. Forbia Asia directly today, you noticed that) or corrected them (source reported 170,000 protesters, you wrote at least 200,000 etc. etc.). Irradaway is a source at least doubtable IMO, it is driven by Burmese people living in the exile. That Burmese editors - currently under a military government - do have a different view on the reliability on this source is obvious. I personally do not have feelings if all others are of the opinion that it is reliable - no problem at all but what I do not want is Wikipedia being in the news with articles going (perhaps) into WP:Activism, that's all. At least: Content Disputes - and IMO those are content disputes - are not topics for the ANI usually, several other editors told you so a couple of days ago, too. CommanderWaterford (talk) 19:34, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- Well, I did not write this "(source reported 170,000 protesters, you wrote at least 200,000 etc. etc.)" you said above. Check edit history. I already noted that the articles I created are not my own. The Irrawaddy is definitely a reliable resource for a different category. Dear experienced editors pls kindly comment on this source. Taung Tan (talk) 19:55, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- This Financial Times article from 2018, entitled "Hate speech, atrocities and fake news: the crisis of democracy in Myanmar" is the only discussion of the publication I can find in English-language sources. While in the introduction of the article it describes the publication as a "pillar of journalistic probity". It notes that after 2015 the publication gained a reputation for supporting the National League for Democracy and suppressed negative stories about them. It also demonstrates that their coverage of Rohingya issues is also questionable. I think that their coverage is reliable if what they are covering cannot be considered to have a conflict of interest with the NLD such as Rohingya related issues, like similar to how we treat Xinhua (RSP entry). Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:07, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- We currently have 686 citations to the publication per Irrawaddy.com
. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:11, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- We currently have 686 citations to the publication per Irrawaddy.com
- This Financial Times article from 2018, entitled "Hate speech, atrocities and fake news: the crisis of democracy in Myanmar" is the only discussion of the publication I can find in English-language sources. While in the introduction of the article it describes the publication as a "pillar of journalistic probity". It notes that after 2015 the publication gained a reputation for supporting the National League for Democracy and suppressed negative stories about them. It also demonstrates that their coverage of Rohingya issues is also questionable. I think that their coverage is reliable if what they are covering cannot be considered to have a conflict of interest with the NLD such as Rohingya related issues, like similar to how we treat Xinhua (RSP entry). Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:07, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- Well, I did not write this "(source reported 170,000 protesters, you wrote at least 200,000 etc. etc.)" you said above. Check edit history. I already noted that the articles I created are not my own. The Irrawaddy is definitely a reliable resource for a different category. Dear experienced editors pls kindly comment on this source. Taung Tan (talk) 19:55, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- Well Taung Tan, don't know if you do yourself a favour here - no, I am definitely not happy if you leave Wikipedia and I (next to several other editors) tried to give you hints and advices how to improve your edits. You seem to revert almost every (!) edit of others editors which seem not be going into exactly your personal opinion, yesterday you reversed twice mergers from very experienced editors with comments barely acceptable. You are threatening editors if they are reverting with statements like "I know exactly what I am doing, take me to AfD, don't bother my time" etc. etc. What you need to see is that an article you created is not "your" article since this is a collaborative platform and one of the five pillars of Wikipedia is to be strictly neutral. Your article creations happened due to the very unhappy events in Myanmar and I personally do not favor at all this military coup BUT since this is an encyclopaedia we want to have accurate, reliable information - and I for myself added several of your statements with by far better sources (e.g. Forbia Asia directly today, you noticed that) or corrected them (source reported 170,000 protesters, you wrote at least 200,000 etc. etc.). Irradaway is a source at least doubtable IMO, it is driven by Burmese people living in the exile. That Burmese editors - currently under a military government - do have a different view on the reliability on this source is obvious. I personally do not have feelings if all others are of the opinion that it is reliable - no problem at all but what I do not want is Wikipedia being in the news with articles going (perhaps) into WP:Activism, that's all. At least: Content Disputes - and IMO those are content disputes - are not topics for the ANI usually, several other editors told you so a couple of days ago, too. CommanderWaterford (talk) 19:34, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you for being on my side. I did my best to help Wikipedia as a Burmese speaking editor even though my country is now in the darkness of military rule. I hope I didn't do nothing wrong on Wikipedia. I've fullknowledge on Wikipedia's general notability guidelines. I can no longer editing on Wikipedia anymore because I'm very tired. Taung Tan (talk) 19:10, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Taung Tan: Most other editors have agreed with you, whether it be on your sourcing choices or whether your articles are notable. It would be a shame for you to retire due to the actions of a single user. That said I think that The Irrawaddy is a usable source, as it is not subject to oversight by the Myanmar govt and is a well established and respected publication. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:54, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- a) "The Irrawaddy (Burmese: ဧရာဝတီ; MLCTS: ei: ra wa. ti) is a news website by the Irrawaddy Publishing Group (IPG), founded in 1990[1] by Burmese exiles living in Thailand."
- b) Comments like "Dear experienced editors pls kindly comment on this source" are not useful at all.
- c) Suggestion to close this dispute for now and future edits: Perhaps it would make sense to put recently created articles related to the Myanmar Coup to the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard - so other, more experienced editors with WP:NPOV have an eye on them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CommanderWaterford (talk • contribs)
- Taung Tan's first language is clearly not english and you should cut them some slack. Your judgement of any sources related to Myanmar doesn't appear to be based on any informed analysis but instead on hazy suppositions. Perhaps you should leave topics that you are not familiar with to more experienced editors? Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:36, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- Hum? Why not useful CommanderWaterford? Most of my creations are not related to the Myanmar Coup, see my edit history! Btw The Irrawaddy media is now running by many reporters and staffs, the office located in Building 170/175, Room 806 and 312, MGW Tower, Boaungkyaw Street Middle Block, Yangon, Myanmar [139], not in Thailand. Taung Tan (talk) 21:00, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- Hemiauchenia, so you are telling me the fact that 686 citations are mentioned makes this source a neutral, reliable source in articles about Myanmar protests - seriously? I have not seen an independent analysis so far. Anyway, as I said - perhaps better other editors or better sysops - will have an eye on this, we should take this to the NPOV Noticeboard. CommanderWaterford (talk) 23:59, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- Taung Tan's first language is clearly not english and you should cut them some slack. Your judgement of any sources related to Myanmar doesn't appear to be based on any informed analysis but instead on hazy suppositions. Perhaps you should leave topics that you are not familiar with to more experienced editors? Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:36, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- I personally wouldn't compare the bias of The Irrawaddy to that of the Chinese state-run Xinhua. To give an example of an English media equivalent, it's like American conservatives being upset about CNN and MSNBC for their favourable coverage of liberal politicians. Yes there is a biased slant, all media is biased to some extent including Wikipedia, but I don't think The Irrawaddy twists narratives to the point where they don't sound similar to news reports by other news companies. CentreLeftRight ✉ 06:22, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- Hello, Our Myanmar Wiki project is not active now, User:Hintha is only one active user on our project at this times. Btw, so poor hater negative tagged on this even that the Irrawaddy is reliable on other topic not political news. Sure I’ll left from Wiki when this discussion was closed. “My opinion on my self is “A little dog need a bone” So..... Taung Tan (talk) 08:54, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
Seems like the Irrawady is considered credible by a large number of high-quality news outlets internationally: The New York Times [140][141] ("independant") [142], The Associated Press [143][144], Reuters [145], Nikkei Asia [146], Le Monde [147][148] ("the voice of the exiled dissenters during the dictatorship"), Le Figaro [149], Courrier International [150], which also translated one of its articles in French [151]: Courrier International has a stellar reputation in the selection of foreign sources, DPA [152][153], Neue Zürcher Zeitung [154]--JBchrch (talk) 14:01, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- JBchrch, out of sheer curiosity: why do you think that they consider them credible just because they once quoted them? Journalists nowadays do not have to cite only from reliable sources, that's one of the differences by the way between an encyclopaedia (strictly has to be neutral) and media. The NYT and the FAZ do quote from non-reliable sources as well if they have to (just because they need some quote at all).
- Looks btw that unfortunately they have cut off once again the Internet Access at Myanmar. CommanderWaterford (talk) 23:38, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- PS: Interesting Interview I found today with the chief editor of Irradaway a couple of days ago where he is mentioning deep concerns against the military Government, so IMO hard to believe that they really can and will report in a neutral way of manner: https://cpj.org/2021/02/irrawaddy-editor-aung-zaw-speaks-to-fears-of-a-post-coup-media-crackdown-in-myanmar/ CommanderWaterford (talk) 00:06, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- CommanderWaterford, if I had found only one quote, then no I would not consider that. But since there are multiple citations backing up factual assertions in highly-reliable sources, it's strong evidence to me that The Irrawady is generally reliable. I am not aware that the NYT cites non-reliable sources to back up their reporting. Regarding the interview, WP:BIASED does not require sources to be
neutral, unbiased, or objective
.--JBchrch (talk) 09:35, 15 February 2021 (UTC)- JBchrch, I guess you are referring to "Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject" - I agree that we could take this source into an article if there are no others but this does not imply that it is reliable and this needs to be flagged for the reader, see Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Bias_in_sources. CommanderWaterford (talk) 12:00, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- CommanderWaterford, the NYT, the WSJ and the WaPo are all biased, though, and they are all great sources which do not require attribution (echoing CentreLeftRight). I think if you have doubts about the reliability of The Irrawady, you should provide evidence of such non-reliability, because a slight anti-authoritarian bias is not sufficient—at least in my opinion—to treat it like you suggest.--JBchrch (talk) 12:06, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- JBchrch, I guess you are referring to "Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject" - I agree that we could take this source into an article if there are no others but this does not imply that it is reliable and this needs to be flagged for the reader, see Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Bias_in_sources. CommanderWaterford (talk) 12:00, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- CommanderWaterford, if I had found only one quote, then no I would not consider that. But since there are multiple citations backing up factual assertions in highly-reliable sources, it's strong evidence to me that The Irrawady is generally reliable. I am not aware that the NYT cites non-reliable sources to back up their reporting. Regarding the interview, WP:BIASED does not require sources to be
Sourcing with Frontiers Journal in Public Health
Is it ok to source the following sentence with Frontiers Journal in Public Health:
- In spring of 2012, three miners cleaning bat feces in an abandoned copper mine near the town of Tongguan in Mojiang Hani Autonomous County developed fatal pneumonia.[155][156]
This source expands on a brief Nature Journal source also used for the sentence. Two editors (PaleoNeonate and Alexbrn) have stated Frontiers is no good. Frontiers Journal in Public Health has an impact factor of 2.483[157] and Frontiers the publisher is the 5th most cited science publisher in the world[158]. --Guest2625 (talk) 14:21, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- Borderline predatory publisher, best avoided for anything not trivial. But even if it were reputable, this is a primary source and so not suitable, especially for controversial claims about COVID-19 origins. Alexbrn (talk) 14:38, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- Also see these older threads in relation to Frontiers journals: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 205#Scientific Research Publishing and Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 263#Frontiers in Neurology - blacklisted or no?; and I suspect Alexbrn refers to WP:PRIMARY vs WP:MEDRS, —PaleoNeonate – 14:47, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- Frontiers is a predatory publisher, listed as such on WP:CITEWATCH. Frontiers publications are generally not usable as scientific sources. If the claim is solid, it'll be in a usable source. In this case it is, so use the RS version and not the jazzed-up version - David Gerard (talk) 15:18, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- Frontiers is borderline, listed as borderline on WP:CITEWATCH. Citing the CiteWatch is also putting the cart before the horses, because the CiteWatch reflect community consensus, it is not independent from it. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 19:33, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
- Frontiers is to be avoided whenever possible, their own statements about how popular they are notwithstanding. XOR'easter (talk) 17:04, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
I encourage the people who create the scientific content on Wikipedia to look at the statistic links that I've provided. Many of the people who voice their opinion on this reliable source noticeboard have not created any scientific content here on Wikipedia. And there are also those, unfortunately, who are unable to read scientific literature. It actually does take time to learn how to understand the literature of different fields of specialization.
I'll provide this table, since I know many people do not actually click on links.
2019 Journal Impact Factors | ||||
Journal | 2019 Journal Impact Factor | |||
Frontiers in Aging Neuroscience | 4.362 | |||
Frontiers in Behavioral Neuroscience | 2.512 | |||
Frontiers in Bioengineering and Biotechnology | 3.644 | |||
Frontiers in Cardiovascular Medicine | 3.915 | |||
Frontiers in Cell and Developmental Biology | 5.201 | |||
Frontiers in Cellular and Infection Microbiology | 4.123 | |||
Frontiers in Cellular Neuroscience | 3.921 | |||
Frontiers in Chemistry | 3.693 | |||
Frontiers in Computational Neuroscience | 2.535 | |||
Frontiers in Earth Science | 2.689 | |||
Frontiers in Ecology and Evolution | 2.416 | |||
Frontiers in Endocrinology | 3.644 | |||
Frontiers in Energy Research | 2.746 | |||
Frontiers in Environmental Science | 2.749 | |||
Frontiers in Genetics | 3.258 | |||
Frontiers in Human Neuroscience | 2.673 | |||
Frontiers in Immunology | 5.085 | |||
Frontiers in Integrative Neuroscience | 2.152 | |||
Frontiers in Marine Science | 3.661 | |||
Frontiers in Materials | 2.705 | |||
Frontiers in Medicine | 3.9 | |||
Frontiers in Microbiology | 4.235 | |||
Frontiers in Molecular Biosciences | 4.188 | |||
Frontiers in Molecular Neuroscience | 4.057 | |||
Frontiers in Neural Circuits | 3.156 | |||
Frontiers in Neuroanatomy | 3.292 | |||
Frontiers in Neuroinformatics | 2.649 | |||
Frontiers in Neurology | 2.889 | |||
Frontiers in Neurorobotics | 2.574 | |||
Frontiers in Neuroscience | 3.707 | |||
Frontiers in Nutrition | 3.365 | |||
Frontiers in Oncology | 4.848 | |||
Frontiers in Pediatrics | 2.634 | |||
Frontiers in Pharmacology | 4.225 | |||
Frontiers in Physics | 2.638 | |||
Frontiers in Physiology | 3.367 | |||
Frontiers in Plant Science | 4.402 | |||
Frontiers in Psychiatry | 2.849 | |||
Frontiers in Psychology | 2.067 | |||
Frontiers in Public Health | 2.483 | |||
Frontiers in Surgery | 1.826 | |||
Frontiers in Systems Neuroscience | 3.293 | |||
Frontiers in Veterinary Science | 2.245 |
Click on the following links to learn about the statistics of the publisher which is the 5th most cited scientific publisher in the world.
Frontier's publisher: Impact overview
Frontier's publisher: Journal Impact Factors
Frontier's publisher: Journal CiteScores
Frontier's publisher: Journal Citations
I look forward to having a rigorous discussion here on the reliable noticeboard as to what makes a science journal reliable or not. I also strongly encourage everyone who creates the scientific content on Wikipedia to contribute. This is an important topic that does not have room for gut feelings, politics, or passions. --Guest2625 (talk) 22:22, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
- From WP:CITEWATCH:
Will accept almost anything (80-90% of submissions), and has sacked editors for being too selective.
Perhaps WT:CITEWATCH is the place to discuss the matter if you want a Frontiers journal regarded as a respectable source and removed from CITEWATCH - David Gerard (talk) 23:48, 12 February 2021 (UTC) - Frontiers Media is near bottom of the barrel among non outright-predatory open access publishers. Editors have a high pressure to be non-selective about what is published in their journals. The acknowledgements section sets off many alarm bells. Citing "DRASTIC (Decentralized Radical Autonomous Search Team Investigating COVID-19)" for "invaluable discussions". As far as I can tell DRASTIC is a bunch of anonymous and otherwise unnotable twitter users who are dedicated to pushing the lab leak conspiracy theory. The authors also cite "Dr. Jonathan Latham of bioscienceresource.org" for translating the manuscript of one of the masters thesis. Dr. Jonathan Latham is the operator of "independentsciencenews.org" see Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_327#independentsciencenews.org an agriculture focused fringe site, which last year also began pushing lab leak conspiracy theories. This demonstrates that like other previous pro-lab leak papers like The genetic structure of SARS‐CoV‐2 does not rule out a laboratory origin in BioEssays that they are strongly drawing from "lab leak twitter". Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:01, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
- Yes. If you're trying to source a crank conspiracy theory, then Frontiers is certainly the sort of publisher who will have the sort of papers you're looking for; however, that's why they're not usable in Wikipedia. You may wish to consider sticking to firmer RSes - David Gerard (talk) 00:26, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
- The problem with the Mojiang Mine story is that no samples were ever taken from the infected miners, meaning that anything about the identity of the agent that caused the illness is entirely speculation, and will never be definitively proved for sure. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:36, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
- The lead author on twitter has indicated that she is associated with DRASTIC. Even if it was judged to not be unreliable its still very much undue. Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:03, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
- Mona's main speciality is methane oxidizing bacteria, while Rahul's is plant biology, meaning that neither have relevant expertise in virology. Further to this, she has attempted to canvass editors to wikipedia. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:34, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
- The problem with the Mojiang Mine story is that no samples were ever taken from the infected miners, meaning that anything about the identity of the agent that caused the illness is entirely speculation, and will never be definitively proved for sure. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:36, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
- Yes. If you're trying to source a crank conspiracy theory, then Frontiers is certainly the sort of publisher who will have the sort of papers you're looking for; however, that's why they're not usable in Wikipedia. You may wish to consider sticking to firmer RSes - David Gerard (talk) 00:26, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
Regardless of reliability, there is the much bigger WP:DUE concerns. That three miners caught pneumonia is trivia at best. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 19:39, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
Is Frontier's Journal in Public Health a reliable source?
Note this section is to unpackage the question above and does not relate to the sentence that is being sourced above with the journal article. What metrics does Wikipedia wish to use to judge the reliability of scientific journals. I propose we utilize whether a journal is indexed in PUBMED and what its impact factor is.
- "
The impact factor (IF) is a measure of the frequency with which the average article in a journal has been cited in a particular year. It is used to measure the importance or rank of a journal by calculating the times it's articles are cited
" - -- Measuring Your Impact: Impact Factor, Citation Analysis, and other Metrics: Journal Impact Factor (IF)
These are the statistics for Frontier's Journal of Public Health in terms of real time impact factor:
- IF: 2.6 Rank (279/516) / Source: https:// academic-accelerator.com/Real-Time-Impact-Factor/Frontiers-in-Public-Health
The statistics indicate that the journal is in the middle of the pack in the topic area of "Public Health, Environmental and Occupational Health". The statistics indicate that it is an indexed reliable source that has been cited by other reliable indexed scientific journals. I will also note that the journal always clearly notes in the left margin who the peer reviewers are and who edited the article. The source is a reliable source. If you dispute that this journal is a reliable source, please provide statistics to back up your argument. (Also, to foreshadow and see if this board is serious about reliability and science publishing: what is plan s?) --Guest2625 (talk) 06:11, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- The article Impact factor, particularly Impact_factor#Criticism, is an excellent argument for why we shouldn't do that. XOR'easter (talk) 21:30, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- The citation index and impact factor are irrelevant. A scientific paper may never be cited, but be 100% reliable. For example, some articles on X-ray crystallography of proteins are never cited. The concern here is different: the predatory publishing, which indeed undermines reliability of publications because it means the papers did not receive a strong peer review. My very best wishes (talk) 00:16, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
Provide numbers and statistics
There have been no numbers or statistics provided to back up the argument that this source is not reliable. There appears to be this belief if you call a whole publishing company something that will make it true. It will not. You have to prove your case with numbers and statistics. Gut-feelings do not cut it. Only people who are not aware of the scientific method do such things.
Here is more proof that Frontiers Media is a trusted partner with institutions and nations in the scientific field.
Frontiers pioneered fully transparent, national Open Access publishing agreements for research organizations and their researchers at a national level. National agreements simplify the process for authors wishing to publish in Frontiers journals, and help contribute to the growing number of research articles that are openly available to all.
Extended content
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National Members
Austria Norway Qatar... Sweden... United Kingdom... Frontiers Institutional Members AUSTRALIA Queensland University of Technology... AUSTRIA Austrian Science Fund (FWF)... Graz University of Technology (TU Graz)... Institute of Science and Technology Austria (IST Austria)... Karl Landsteiner University of Health Sciences St. Pölten University of Applied Sciences... TU Wien (Technische Universität Wien)... University of Applied Sciences Upper Austria... University of Klagenfurt University of Veterinary Medicine Vienna... University of Vienna... CANADA Brock University Simon Fraser University University of Ottawa... FINLAND University of Helsinki... GERMANY Alfred Wegener Institute Helmholtz Centre for Polar and Marine Research (AWI)... Bielefeld University... Charité – Universitätsmedizin Berlin... C.v.O University Oldenburg... Deutsches Krebsforschungszentrum... Deutsches Zentrum für Neurodegenerative Erkrankungen e.V. (DZNE)... Eberhard Karls Universität Tübingen... Forschungszentrum Jülich... Freie Universität Berlin... Friedrich-Schiller-Universität Jena (FSU)... GEOMAR Helmholtz Centre for Ocean Research Kiel... German Aerospace Center (DLR)... GFZ German Research Centre for Geosciences... Goethe University Frankfurt... Göttingen University... Hannover Medical School Heidelberg University... Helmholtz Centre for Environmental Research (UFZ)... Helmholtz-Zentrum Dresden-Rossendorf... Helmholtz-Zentrum für Infektionsforschung... Helmholtz-Zentrum Geesthacht Zentrum für Material- und Küstenforschung... Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin... Johannes Gutenberg University Mainz... Justus Liebig University Giessen Karlsruhe Institute of Technology (KIT)... Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität München... Martin Luther University of Halle-Wittenberg Max Planck Society... Max-Delbrück-Centrum für Molekulare Medizin (MDC)... University of Rostock Rostock University Medical Center Ruhr-University Bochum... Technical University of Munich (TUM)... Technische Universität Berlin... Technische Universität Darmstadt... TU Chemnitz... University of Bremen... University of Duisburg-Essen Universität Kassel... University of Konstanz... Universität Leipzig... University of Mannheim... Universität Osnabrück... University Potsdam... University of Regensburg... University of Stuttgart... University of Ulm... University of Würzburg University Hospital Hamburg-Eppendorf (UKE) Helmholtz Zentrum München HUNGARY Semmelweis University... University of Szeged... ITALY Italian Biomedical Research Institutions (Bibliosan) NETHERLANDS Amsterdam University of Applied Sciences... Netherlands Institute of Ecology (NIOO-KNAW)... TU Delft... NORWAY BI Norwegian Business School Fafo Research Foundation Inland Norway University of Applied Sciences Institute For Social Research Institute of Marine Research Institute Of Transport Economics... NILU Norwegian Institute for Air Research... Nord University Norwegian Institute for Nature Research Norwegian Institute for Water Research... Norwegian Research Centre... Norwegian School of Sport Sciences Norwegian University of Science and Technology Ostfold University College SINTEF Soerlandet Hospital Sykehuset Østfold... University of Agder... University Of Bergen... University Of South-Eastern Norway University Of Stavanger... UiT The Arctic University of Norway... Western Norway University Of Applied Sciences Nofima the food research institute Norwegian Veterinary Institute Norwegian Institute Of Public Health Norwegian Institute of Bioeconomy Research Norwegian Institute for International Affairs QATAR Qatar National Library... RUSSIA Kazan Federal University... SAUDI ARABIA King Abdullah University of Science and Technology (KAUST)... SPAIN Spanish National Research Council (Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Científicas, CSIC)... SWEDEN Chalmers University of Technology... Ersta Sköndal Bräcke University College... Halmstad University Karlstad University... KTH Royal Institute of Technology Lund University... Malmö University Mälardalen University... Mid Sweden University Örebro University... Stockholm University... Swedish School of Sport and Health Sciences, GIH Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences... Umeå University... University of Gävle... University of Borås University of Gothenburg... Uppsala University... University West SWITZERLAND European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN) École Polytechnique Fédérale de Lausanne (EPFL)... ETH Zurich... University of Zurich... Zurich University of Applied Sciences (ZHAW)... UK Brunel University... Cardiff University... Cranfield University Francis Crick Institute... King's College London... Lancaster University Manchester Metropolitan University... University of Oxford Queen Mary University of London... Newcastle University... Queen's University Belfast... Sheffield Hallam University University College London (UCL)... University of Aberdeen University of Birmingham... University of Bristol... University of Cambridge... University of Edinburgh... University of Exeter University of Hull University of LiverpoolUniversity of Manchester University of Nottingham... University of Salford... University of St Andrews... University of Sheffield... University of Southampton... University of Stirling... USA Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation... California Institute of Technology (Caltech)... Duke University George Mason University... Iowa State University of Science and Technology Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT)... University of Arizona University of California, Davis (UC Davis) University of Indiana Yale University |
All these nations and institutions have agreed to work with this publisher. They obviously do not see them as a disreputable publisher, or otherwise they would not work with them. Now please provide statistics or numbers to back up the empty gut feelings. We are talking about science not newspapers.
How many reviewers does a New York Times article have?
How many journalist's articles (who works at the paper) are accepted by the the New York Times for publication?
How much time is spent on writing a New York Times article?
How many authors on average write a New York Times article?
Think about this. How many total research-hours are spent by all the authors on that one little science article. Look at the original sentence above. Something is seriously wrong with this board if a local newspaper can source it, but not a normal old indexed science journal with a fairly decent impact factor. A publisher that has agreements to work with endless numbers of universities and nations. So what is plan s? --Guest2625 (talk) 08:28, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Even if the journal was reputable (which is in doubt because of the criticism it received over the years), it would still not meet WP:MEDRS as a primary source, —PaleoNeonate – 12:45, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- The article Impact factor, particularly the section Impact factor#Criticism, contains numbers and statistics indicating why one should not take IF as indicating reliability for our purposes. The text copy-and-pasted above is essentially advertising material for the publisher and conveys no information; that an organization has a nominal relationship of some kind with a publisher means very little. Thanks to product bundling, academic libraries often have to buy journal subscriptions in package deals, getting everything that a publisher offers even when only a sliver of those journals are actually valued by scientists. Consequently, inferring anything about a particular journal knowing only the publisher is apt to be misguided. XOR'easter (talk) 15:20, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Frontiers in Public Health is ranked as Q2 in the field "Public health, Environmental and Ocuppational Health" by Scimago. All journals included by Scimago are reputable, and the only ones to be borderline are the ones classified as Q4 with low values of the citation indexes (Scimago's own index, SJR, has a value of 0.672 for this journal, which is not low). Forich (talk) 11:11, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- No, not all journals indexed by Scimago are reputable. XOR'easter (talk) 19:51, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Frontiers in Public Health is ranked as Q2 in the field "Public health, Environmental and Ocuppational Health" by Scimago. All journals included by Scimago are reputable, and the only ones to be borderline are the ones classified as Q4 with low values of the citation indexes (Scimago's own index, SJR, has a value of 0.672 for this journal, which is not low). Forich (talk) 11:11, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
User edit warring to add back sources older than 100 years.
Jonathan A Jones seems to be edit warring in University to add sources from 1911 and 1898 [159]. Especially the 1911 Britannica source should be removed, as it was superseded by newer version of Britannica entry which doesn't repeat the same claim [160]. Can someone weigh in on the usage of extremely dated sources? Should they be directly removed and replaced with citation needed tags? Bogazicili (talk) 17:01, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
- The following academic source may be a better replacement:
The Medieval Legacy
Universities appeared in Roman Catholic Europe in the late twelfth and early thirteenth century. Schools had developed in many cities for the training of priests. They were dependent on bishops' authority and control. Because of the division between civil and religious powers which was then normal, they escaped the direct control of the King. When conflicts with bishops occurred, the students and teachers of some schools transformed themselves into self-organised and self-governing communities. In Paris, this community took in 1215 the name of Universitas magistrorum et scholarium parisiensium–hence the name of university, which meant community. It developed under the protection of the pope, a distant authority, who only controlled the kind of theology which was taught.Claval, Paul (1998). "Politics and the University". The Urban University and its Identity: Roots, Locations, Roles. GeoJournal Library. 45. Springer Netherlands. pp. 30–31. doi:10.1007/978-94-011-5184-9_3. Retrieved 13 February 2021 – via Google Books.
- Thanks! I'm sure there are better sources for the claim that the word comes from Latin as well. My question was also about usage of extremely dated sources. Is there a general consensus on this? Should they be removed? Bogazicili (talk) 17:25, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
- The relevant section of the guideline is Wikipedia:Reliable sources § Age matters (WP:RS AGE). For academic sources, if claims in older sources are superseded by claims in newer sources, then the newer sources should take precedence. But if newer sources simply omit the claim, I'm not sure. — Newslinger talk 17:35, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
- In the case of a topic as commonly written about as "university", if a piece of information is not found in any modern source, but only in a century-old source, then in addition to calling into question whether the info can be considered reliably sourced, it calls into question whether the info is WP:DUE, doesn't it? (Btw, for a more obscure topic that's sourced mostly to sources from 1870 and 1909, take a gender at Chizerots.) -sche (talk) 19:43, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
- There is nothing inherently wrong with old sources, in fact they are often best because they have the most in-depth coverage on a topic of interest a while back but little interest since then. The etymology of a word is more than fine to cite EB1911 because it is a free public domain source we can link and not worry about copyvio, reliable (EB1911 has a high reputation), and not contradicted by OED or Websters. -- GreenC 20:50, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
- The relevant section of the guideline is Wikipedia:Reliable sources § Age matters (WP:RS AGE). For academic sources, if claims in older sources are superseded by claims in newer sources, then the newer sources should take precedence. But if newer sources simply omit the claim, I'm not sure. — Newslinger talk 17:35, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks! I'm sure there are better sources for the claim that the word comes from Latin as well. My question was also about usage of extremely dated sources. Is there a general consensus on this? Should they be removed? Bogazicili (talk) 17:25, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
- It's not clear to me whether Bogazicili is seeking to report me for edit warring (in which case this is the wrong place) or to ask a general question about policy, or to ask a specific question about two references. With regard to the first point I invite any editor to look at the sequence of edits rather than the selected reports given above: suffice it to say that I simply restored a pair of very longstanding references which Bogazicili removed and then removed again after I restored them (per WP:BRD). With regard to the seocnd point, WP:RS AGE does indeed caution against using old references when these have been superseded by modern scholarship, but that is hardly the case here: the points supported by the references are utterly uncontroversial in the field. I accept that it is nevertheless preferable to use more modern references to avoid raising false concerns that WP:RS AGE might apply, which is why after restoring the references I added "better source" tags. Genuinely interested editors might wish to review the discussions at Talk:List of oldest universities in continuous operation to get a clearer idea of what this discussion is actually about. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 20:48, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
Why isn't there already a discussion in the article's Talk page? It's difficult to believe that a controversy requires the input of the broader community if it hasn't even been addressed on the article's Talk page. ElKevbo (talk) 22:03, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
- Using 100+ years sources seems to violate Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Age_matters to me. This is a discussion about that, whether those sources should be removed and replaced with citation needed tags, or if it's a case by case issue. This is a Wikipedia-wide issue. Bogazicili (talk) 17:33, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Using 100+ year old sources per se does not violate Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Age_matters. The policy says that they should be used carefully and the editors must check if there is newer contradicting information. In many cases there is none and therefore such sources are fine. Specifically here it's hard for me to imagine that the scientific consensus on the etymology of the word university has changed in the last 100 years. If it indeed happened surely it would be easy to provide a more modern source - and in that case it would take precedence. Alaexis¿question? 18:06, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- That's why it should be easy to find a more recent source for something as basic as etymology. At best, using 1910 and 1898 sources seem low-quality to me. But there doesn't seem to be a consensus here that they should be removed, so I guess Jonathan A Jones's method of putting better sources tag is preferable. Bogazicili (talk) 18:20, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Using 100+ year old sources per se does not violate Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Age_matters. The policy says that they should be used carefully and the editors must check if there is newer contradicting information. In many cases there is none and therefore such sources are fine. Specifically here it's hard for me to imagine that the scientific consensus on the etymology of the word university has changed in the last 100 years. If it indeed happened surely it would be easy to provide a more modern source - and in that case it would take precedence. Alaexis¿question? 18:06, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Using 100+ years sources seems to violate Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Age_matters to me. This is a discussion about that, whether those sources should be removed and replaced with citation needed tags, or if it's a case by case issue. This is a Wikipedia-wide issue. Bogazicili (talk) 17:33, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation
Is the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation website a reliable source for the article Mass killings under communist regimes?
There is a dispute over whether the article should quote an estimated range of Communist mass killings published in an article by "DISSIDENT" on the website.[161]
The Foundation is a partisan organization headed by Edwin Feulner, the founder and former president of the conservative Heritage Foundation. The previous chairman was Lee Edwards, the founder of the American branch of the World Anti-Communist League.
Their Mission Statement says, "Positive attitudes toward communism and socialism are at an all-time high in the United States. We have a solemn obligation to expose the lies of Marxism for the naïve who say they are willing to give collectivism another chance. New generations need to confront the reality of Marxism in practice. Socialism is not a kind, humane philosophy. Marxist socialism is the deadliest ideology in history."
I realize that some editors might say that whether or not it is a reliable source, it is reliable for its own views. But if it is not reliable then its estimates, which are substantially higher than reliable sources, would lack weight for inclusion.
TFD (talk) 03:30, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
Note: there was a previous discussion on this noticeboard about the Global Museum on Communism, which was run by the same people but is now offline. TFD (talk) 14:07, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Unreliable this is an advocacy group, not a scholarly source. It does not have a good reputation for fact-checking or accuracy. (t · c) buidhe 03:42, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- buidhe, why do you say it does not have a good reputation for fact checking and accuracy? And per WP:NPOVHOW, "As a general rule, do not remove sourced information from the encyclopedia solely on the grounds that it seems biased. Instead, try to rewrite the passage or section to achieve a more neutral tone. Biased information can usually be balanced with material cited to other sources to produce a more neutral perspective, so such problems should be fixed when possible through the normal editing process. Remove material only where you have a good reason to believe it misinforms or misleads readers in ways that cannot be addressed by rewriting the passage. The sections below offer specific guidance on common problems." AmateurEditor (talk) 06:19, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Exactly, this organization's purpose is to present a negative view of Communism/Marxism/socialism (note the lack of distinction between them) regardless of whether it misleads the reader. (FYI I detect at least one inaccuracy in the above: "Positive attitudes toward communism and socialism are at an all-time high in the United States" Opinion polls don't agree[162])
- I believe the burden of proof is on those who are trying to show that it meets RS standard. Is it cited in peer reviewed scholarship for its information on Communist death toll or other information on Communist societies? AFAIK it is only cited as a source on anti-Communist viewpoint which does not show it is a reliable source for factual information. (t · c) buidhe 06:31, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- The RS standard is not just peer-reviewed sources. It is clearly a reliable source for its own views. The "misinforms or misleads readers" bit is not about expressing the views of a biased organization, because biased sources are clearly allowed. The question is essentially whether the organization is lying. I don't think you think they are doing that. AmateurEditor (talk) 07:02, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- For it to be cited in an article for statistics it has to have a reputation for accuracy in compiling such statistics, otherwise it does not meet WP:RS standard. (t · c) buidhe 07:13, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Buidhe I don't think you understand - AmateurEditor is not claiming they are a reliable source for statistics, they are claiming that they are a reliable source for what their own claims are. Elliot321 (talk | contribs) 07:19, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- buidhe, the citation is for their own view, it's not even arguable whether they are a reliable source for that. This isn't about "statistics" at all. AmateurEditor (talk) 09:20, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- The issue is whether the source (specifically this page from the organization's website), is a reliable source for this sentence in the wikipedia article: "In 2016, the Dissident blog of the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation made an effort to compile updated ranges of estimates and concluded that the overall range "spans from 42,870,000 to 161,990,000" killed, with 100 million the most commonly cited figure.[ab]" It clearly is a reliable source for that statement. Whether there is an undue weight issue is a separate matter. AmateurEditor (talk) 09:34, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- It's not, because you haven't show that they (or this one blog) has any reputation for fact-checking or accuracy whatsoever when it comes to compiling statistics on alleged Communist killings. That's a basic WP:RS requirement and it can't be handwaived by claiming that it's just an opinion. (t · c) buidhe 18:20, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- The Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation is an organization established by an act of the US Congress and a member of the Platform of European Memory and Conscience, which is acknowledgement of expertise. And here is an example of the organization being cited in a book published by Cornell University Press. The "blog" is just a page on their official website. AmateurEditor (talk) 19:37, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Please stop WP:BLUDGEONing everyone who disagrees with you. I looked through 10 pages of Google Scholar results so that you don't have to [163] I see no evidence that the foundation is cited in academic research for actual facts about Communist governments. It is cited for one of two things: affiliation of a mentioned individual, and anti-Communist POV (more rarely, and usually unfavorably[164]). FYI I checked the Cornell book you cite and VOCMF is indeed mentioned... only once, as the source of the cover art. (t · c) buidhe 20:25, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- The Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation is an organization established by an act of the US Congress and a member of the Platform of European Memory and Conscience, which is acknowledgement of expertise. And here is an example of the organization being cited in a book published by Cornell University Press. The "blog" is just a page on their official website. AmateurEditor (talk) 19:37, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- It's not, because you haven't show that they (or this one blog) has any reputation for fact-checking or accuracy whatsoever when it comes to compiling statistics on alleged Communist killings. That's a basic WP:RS requirement and it can't be handwaived by claiming that it's just an opinion. (t · c) buidhe 18:20, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Buidhe I don't think you understand - AmateurEditor is not claiming they are a reliable source for statistics, they are claiming that they are a reliable source for what their own claims are. Elliot321 (talk | contribs) 07:19, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- For it to be cited in an article for statistics it has to have a reputation for accuracy in compiling such statistics, otherwise it does not meet WP:RS standard. (t · c) buidhe 07:13, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- The RS standard is not just peer-reviewed sources. It is clearly a reliable source for its own views. The "misinforms or misleads readers" bit is not about expressing the views of a biased organization, because biased sources are clearly allowed. The question is essentially whether the organization is lying. I don't think you think they are doing that. AmateurEditor (talk) 07:02, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- buidhe, why do you say it does not have a good reputation for fact checking and accuracy? And per WP:NPOVHOW, "As a general rule, do not remove sourced information from the encyclopedia solely on the grounds that it seems biased. Instead, try to rewrite the passage or section to achieve a more neutral tone. Biased information can usually be balanced with material cited to other sources to produce a more neutral perspective, so such problems should be fixed when possible through the normal editing process. Remove material only where you have a good reason to believe it misinforms or misleads readers in ways that cannot be addressed by rewriting the passage. The sections below offer specific guidance on common problems." AmateurEditor (talk) 06:19, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Clearly unreliable, this is unrelated to whether their estimates are WP:UNDUE - though they probably are, this depends on the individual topic. Elliot321 (talk | contribs) 06:13, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Elliot321, you are right that this really an issue of weight and not reliability at all. But the source is clearly reliable for the sentence it is being cited for: that the organization posted the estimate. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:22, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- AmateurEditor of course they're reliable as a source for their own claims - but that's all they are - claims, not indicative of reality in any way. This isn't the right place for determining due weight so I don't see the point of bringing this up here? Elliot321 (talk | contribs) 06:25, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- I don't know why TFD decided to bring it up here. Even he says the issue is really about weight. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:30, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- I explained that above: "...if it is not reliable then its estimates, which are substantially higher than reliable sources, would lack weight for inclusion." TFD (talk) 13:54, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Not "it's" estimates, they provided a range of estimates found in a survey of other sources, so of course the high end will be high. The low end is also low. The whole point was to report the range from low to high. AmateurEditor (talk) 19:37, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- I explained that above: "...if it is not reliable then its estimates, which are substantially higher than reliable sources, would lack weight for inclusion." TFD (talk) 13:54, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- I don't know why TFD decided to bring it up here. Even he says the issue is really about weight. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:30, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- AmateurEditor of course they're reliable as a source for their own claims - but that's all they are - claims, not indicative of reality in any way. This isn't the right place for determining due weight so I don't see the point of bringing this up here? Elliot321 (talk | contribs) 06:25, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Elliot321, you are right that this really an issue of weight and not reliability at all. But the source is clearly reliable for the sentence it is being cited for: that the organization posted the estimate. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:22, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
TFD, it says at the top of this page to please include in posts here links to past discussion of the source on this board. You said in your post here that there was one, but you did not mention it above. AmateurEditor (talk) 06:19, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- That means it is a tertiary source of unknown quality.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:24, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Unreliable per Buidhe. Vikram Vincent 07:25, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Unreliable, they are a partisan organisation, their news stories are exceptionally biased. Statistics from them should not be included in any article. Boynamedsue (talk) 09:08, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Boynamedsue, per Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Bias_in_sources: "A common argument in a dispute about reliable sources is that one source is biased and so another source should be given preference. Some editors argue that biased sources should not be used because they introduce improper POV to an article. However, biased sources are not inherently disallowed based on bias alone, although other aspects of the source may make it invalid. Neutral point of view should be achieved by balancing the bias in sources based on the weight of the opinion in reliable sources and not by excluding sources that do not conform to the editor's point of view. This does not mean any biased source must be used; it may well serve an article better to exclude the material altogether." AmateurEditor (talk) 09:21, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- I agree that in a collection of opinions it would be valid (i.e, "The conservative anti-Communist Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation believes Communism inevitably leads to mass killing") but not for statistical data or opinions on statistical data ("The victims of Communism foundation believes 10,000 Cubans were murdered by Che Guevara"). They are simply not competent to be giving factual opinions, so why would they be used? Boynamedsue (talk) 10:20, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- It isn't generating these numbers, it just compiled them from other sources, which it cited. AmateurEditor (talk) 11:04, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- If they aren't RS, their compilation/selection of other people's data is not RS either. It's also useless, as if we wish to quote a primary source (which in effect VCMF are, if we consider them to be valid only for their own opinion) we can simply quote the primary data sources which they themselves cite, and which are probably generally more reliable.Boynamedsue (talk) 11:12, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- There is no such thing as a blanket reliable source/unreliable source outside of the context of its use. Every source is reliable as a source for it's own views. The problem with citing the individual sources that they cite, instead of their consolidation of those courses into ranges of estimates, is that it would be direct synthesis on our part. AmateurEditor (talk) 18:12, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- That's an argument against using their data, rather than using it. The likelihood is that any source quoted by VCMF will be more reliable than them, and that source should be judged on its own merits. The VCMF are just no good for statistical data or factual information, they might be useful for pure opinion, where relevant, their own entry for example.--Boynamedsue (talk) 18:51, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- The Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation is no good for factual information? How so? But yes, they are only being cited for their own view with in-text attribution. I added the sources they are citing in the article reference excerpt. The reader can judge that for themselves. AmateurEditor (talk) 19:37, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- That's an argument against using their data, rather than using it. The likelihood is that any source quoted by VCMF will be more reliable than them, and that source should be judged on its own merits. The VCMF are just no good for statistical data or factual information, they might be useful for pure opinion, where relevant, their own entry for example.--Boynamedsue (talk) 18:51, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- There is no such thing as a blanket reliable source/unreliable source outside of the context of its use. Every source is reliable as a source for it's own views. The problem with citing the individual sources that they cite, instead of their consolidation of those courses into ranges of estimates, is that it would be direct synthesis on our part. AmateurEditor (talk) 18:12, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- If they aren't RS, their compilation/selection of other people's data is not RS either. It's also useless, as if we wish to quote a primary source (which in effect VCMF are, if we consider them to be valid only for their own opinion) we can simply quote the primary data sources which they themselves cite, and which are probably generally more reliable.Boynamedsue (talk) 11:12, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- It isn't generating these numbers, it just compiled them from other sources, which it cited. AmateurEditor (talk) 11:04, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- I agree that in a collection of opinions it would be valid (i.e, "The conservative anti-Communist Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation believes Communism inevitably leads to mass killing") but not for statistical data or opinions on statistical data ("The victims of Communism foundation believes 10,000 Cubans were murdered by Che Guevara"). They are simply not competent to be giving factual opinions, so why would they be used? Boynamedsue (talk) 10:20, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Boynamedsue, per Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Bias_in_sources: "A common argument in a dispute about reliable sources is that one source is biased and so another source should be given preference. Some editors argue that biased sources should not be used because they introduce improper POV to an article. However, biased sources are not inherently disallowed based on bias alone, although other aspects of the source may make it invalid. Neutral point of view should be achieved by balancing the bias in sources based on the weight of the opinion in reliable sources and not by excluding sources that do not conform to the editor's point of view. This does not mean any biased source must be used; it may well serve an article better to exclude the material altogether." AmateurEditor (talk) 09:21, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- But do we think the Memorial's own opinion deserves mentioning in this article? I found only one historian (a conservative historian) on its web site. Why did you decided the opinion of those people deserves reader's attention?--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:21, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Unreliable, this is an anti-communist advocacy organization.--Bob not snob (talk) 10:54, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Biased sources are allowed, per Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Bias_in_sources. AmateurEditor (talk) 11:04, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Unreliable as a source of statistics about numbers of victims since they obviously are biased in the direction of exaggerated estimates. NightHeron (talk) 14:20, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Again, a source's bias is not a legitimate cause of unreliability, especially for the statement in question. AmateurEditor (talk) 18:12, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Unreliable for statements of fact, as they seem to be (pretty much) an SPS, and do not appear to be experts. Any other issues falls under undue.Slatersteven (talk) 14:33, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- I agree this is self-published, given that it is the organization's own website, but this topic is squarely within the scope of the organization's focus. AmateurEditor (talk) 18:12, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Our policies say, Acknowledged experts, not focused on the topic. They can be wholly focused and still not be reliable (as most fan sites would be).Slatersteven (talk) 18:15, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- The Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation is not like a random member of the general public creating a subject matter fan site. It is an organization established by an act of the US Congress and a member of the Platform of European Memory and Conscience, which is acknowledgement of expertise. And here is an example of the organization being cited in a book published by Cornell University Press. AmateurEditor (talk) 19:37, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Our policies say, Acknowledged experts, not focused on the topic. They can be wholly focused and still not be reliable (as most fan sites would be).Slatersteven (talk) 18:15, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- I agree this is self-published, given that it is the organization's own website, but this topic is squarely within the scope of the organization's focus. AmateurEditor (talk) 18:12, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Not Reliable VOCM is a histerically biased anti-communism advocacy group, totally undue for any discussion on the number of victims of communist regimes. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:47, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Unreliable per others. Self-published amateur hour. Zaathras (talk)
- Unreliable As the editor posting this discussion, I found it lacked any dedication to, or mechanism for, ensuring accuracy. TFD (talk) 20:06, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Comment. This particular link (I am not talking about the Foundation in general) is not an RS. However, it provides references about numbers in specific countries to other sources, most of which are RS. So one can take numbers from these other sources, verify these numbers, and arrive to the same total number after summation. My very best wishes (talk) 03:30, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- However, as the link is not RS, to do this would be OR based on primary sources. I agree that the higher numbers could arguably be included based on the original sources, assuming they met RS and WP:WEIGHT and were not WP:FRINGE. Including the range quoted by VCMF based on checking their sources would violate WP:OR.Boynamedsue (talk) 08:07, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- No, simple arithmetic like A+B=C would not violate WP:OR. My very best wishes (talk) 00:31, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- However, as the link is not RS, to do this would be OR based on primary sources. I agree that the higher numbers could arguably be included based on the original sources, assuming they met RS and WP:WEIGHT and were not WP:FRINGE. Including the range quoted by VCMF based on checking their sources would violate WP:OR.Boynamedsue (talk) 08:07, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Unreliable as others have pointed out. They are notoriously awful anti-communist group, seemingly branching off from the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank, and have no basis in fact, as others have pointed out. --Historyday01 (talk) 20:38, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- On general principles, going to an advocacy group for a summary of other people's estimates seems a little misguided. If a historical question is important enough for us to be writing about it, there will be peer-reviewed academic literature collecting and meta-analyzing. A statement by an advocacy group about a question like this would probably be WP:UNDUE unless we had good indications to the contrary. XOR'easter (talk) 21:36, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Unreliable such a big statement really needs a high quality source, preferably academic, not a blog hosted by a think tank. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:41, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
- Unreliable better to consult individuals sources for any particular event. Also, the slant of the organization needs to be taken into account. Dhawk790 (talk) 19:21, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Unreliable. Not just biased, but biased in a manner that leads it to contradict reality, as described by Jon Wiener in his 2012 How we forgot the Cold War:
"During the decade when the fundraising was languishing, the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation produced a number of 'papers and studies.' A notable one was published in 2002, nine months after 9/11, titled 'International Terrorism: The Communist Connection Revisited: Archives show Islamist terrorism linkages to Soviet Cold War intelligence.' The author, J. Michael Waller, reported that Reagan’s CIA director, William J. Casey, had found that 'there is virtually no terrorist operation or guerrilla movement anywhere in the world today . . . with which communists of one sort or another have not been involved.' It’s hard to imagine a more hare-brained understanding of Osama Bin Laden, whose anticommunist credentials were, to say the least, impeccable. And yet the foundation still carries that paper on its website."
Note: this book is non-academic, but probably still useful for this description. Jlevi (talk) 00:53, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- A tertiary source of unknown quality and questionable stability. I checked the source, and it is available only from a web archive, whereas the source page does not exist anymore. That is not serious. The source provides no inline citations, which does not allow checking its accuracy. What is worse, the sources shown in the literature list are either op-ed newspapers materials, which are marginally reliable in that context per our guidelines, or they are the books (Rummel, Courtois etc) that have already been cited in the article. That double referencing created a biased content. Finally, by our criteria it is a tertiary source, whereas our policy recommends us to use mostly secondary sources. It should be removed.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:12, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Perhaps not unreliable Adrian Zenz is a fellow of theirs, and is often cited as an authority in RS coverage of the Xinjiang re-education camps (for instance:
- NY Times: [165]: "The data in it shows how China has tried to establish dominance over Uighurs and other minority groups in the name of increasing security, said Adrian Zenz, a researcher who has analyzed the spreadsheet."
- Washington Post: [166]: "“Imagine parts of a global blockbuster being filmed in the vicinity of minority villages, when [government] work teams are going door to door, asking questions, followed by mass internment by police,” Adrian Zenz, a leading researcher on Xinjiang policy, wrote on Twitter."
- BBC: [167] "One of the world's leading experts on China's policies in Xinjiang, Dr Adrian Zenz, a senior fellow at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation in Washington, believes the latest leak is genuine."
- DW: [168]: ""It is impossible to define where coercion ends and where local consent may begin," wrote Adrian Zenz, the researcher who found the documents.")
- Also, much of the Chinese propaganda effort around the camps is devoted to smearing Zenz and the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation (for instance:
- Global Times (depricated): [169]: Zenz has never been a so-called "Xinjiang expert" but can be more appropriately described as an academic swindler and an attack dog of anti-China forces....The Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation was established by the US government in 1983. It was described by journalist Joe Conason as "the organizational haven for neo-Nazis, fascists, and anti-Semitic extremists from two dozen countries," according to US media outlet The Grayzone." - Note, both the Global Times and The Grayzone are deprecated sources.
- So, while I'm not willing to go so far as to say it's reliable (mainly because I'm only familiar with it due to its use by RS in this one area), it may be a source that can be used with care. Though it's probably better to use the RS that cite it. - GretLomborg (talk) 23:26, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Interesting, all sources that you cite seem to be op-eds, which, as giudelines advise us are reliable only for their author's opinia...--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:42, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- How did you come to that conclusion that these were op-eds? All the RS I cited were clearly news stories: NY Times: [170]: url has "/world/" which is their World News section. It's also written by Austin Ramzy who is described as a "a Hong Kong reporter, focusing on coverage of the city and also of regional and breaking news [emphasis mine]." Washington Post: [171]: also has a url under /world/, which is their World News section. The author is Eva Dou who is described as a "Foreign Correspondent." BBC: [172]: url under "/news/". When you open the story it says "News" in big letters at the top and the highlighted section (World) is also their World News section. DW: [173]: top of page says "Top Stories", above headline it says "News", and at the bottom it says "DW's Biresh Banerjee and Michelle Stockman contributed reporting. [emphasis mine]" - GretLomborg (talk) 02:36, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- For good measure, here are a few more RS mentions:
- Guardian: [174]: ("News" is highlighted with a red bar over in section list): "Records compiled by officials in southern Xinjiang and analysed by the researcher Adrian Zenz indicate that in 2018 more than 9,500 mostly Uighur children in Yarkand county were classified either as experiencing “single hardship” or “double hardship” depending on if one or both parents were detained."
- France 24: [175]: (Asia/Pacific news section) "More than 570,000 Uighurs have been pressed into forced labour in Chinese cotton fields, according to a report published on Monday. These revelations are a “game-changer” and any person or business involved in these supply chains has to “divest”, Adrian Zenz, the researcher behind the report, told FRANCE 24."
- NPR: [176]: ("News" in top left corner, under logo): "NPR's Scott Simon speaks with China expert Adrian Zenz about his research uncovering evidence of birth prevention and mass female sterilization of Uighur Muslims in China."
- AP: [177]: (Related Topics includes "International News," "AP Top News," "General News") "“It underscores the witch-hunt mindset of the government, and how the government criminalizes everything,” said Adrian Zenz, an expert on the detention centers and senior fellow at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation in Washington, D.C."
- - GretLomborg (talk) 03:20, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- And what kind of a piece of news about the Memorial these publication contain? Remember, the question was if the Memorial is a reliable source for the information about the number of "victims of Communism". Are news reporters the experts in that matter? How do they add any weight to the figures provided by the Memorial's web site (which have already been removed from it, and now they are available only from web archives ... and Wikipedia). In addition, how the information that some researcher is a fellow of this foundation adds a credibility to the figures that were presented on its web site? If I give money for genetic engineering research, that does not make me an expert in genetic engineering.--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:47, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- What these are, as I was clear to state, are instances where someone from this organization was cited as an expert in quite a broad set of RS. I am under the impression that the reliability of a source/organization can be reflected in how it's used by other RS (i.e. explicit commentary on it is not the only thing to look for). I just recognized the organization and am sharing what I know, which gives me the impression that this source probably needs to be judged on a case-by-case basis rather than with a broad brush. I'm offering no opinion on any particular cite or fact. GretLomborg (talk) 04:21, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- If some person is cited as an expert, that adds a credibility to his own opinion, not to the opinion of their institution. The fact that Nobel prize winners are working in my university doesn't make my own opinion more trustworthy. And it is necessary to discriminate between people working for some organization from that organization's fellows. Actually, we have no clue on who posted these numbers on the Memorial's web site.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:40, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- Which is why this source probably needs to be judged on a case-by-case basis rather than by using a broad brush. This expert, who is treated as such by a wide variety of high-quality RS, has many reports published on their website (see [178], he has five of the ten mentioned on the first page). Those RS also frequently identify him by his affiliation with this org (see the BBC and AP examples, for instance). That doesn't mean this is the best source for everything, but if the org publishes stuff by one reputable researcher, then it might publish stuff by others. - GretLomborg (talk) 16:51, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- And what is your conclusion? That that information may be reliable under some (unspecified) conditions? Do you realize the question was different? The question was ARE the figures presented in this source reliable?--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:26, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
RfC: Radio Free Asia (RFA)
Link: [179]
Radio Free Asia (RFA) is a US government funded news source. They almost only publish news critical of enemies of the United States. The articles regularly do not cite their sources, which makes their reporting unreliable. For example, this report (https://www.rfa.org/english/news/tibet/beatings-01222021193838.html) refers to "RFA’s source" and "Tibetan sources say." I think that RFA should be depreciated in line with a number of other state media sources.
Edit: Here is another example of an article that I would not consider entirely reliable: https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/cosleeping-10312019160528.html . Again it contains no named sources and it ended up being picked up by other media https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/this-is-mass-rape-china-slammed-over-program-that-appoints-men-to-sleep-with-uighur-women/news-story/ed45cd065e39690354b6402d02904557 . Just because it does not contain any named sources does not mean that it is fabricated, but I feel like, at least on a case by case basis, it might make sense to depreciate some articles from RFA that seem like they can't be authenticated. I don't know if there is any precedent for this.
Dhawk790 (talk) 00:25, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- I'm inclined to say yes, deprecate, or at least generally unreliable. Not only a source of political propaganda, even their non-political claims are unreliable. For instance, this piece claims that boxer Abudureheman Abulikemu stopped competing in 2003, but in fact he continued competing in 2005, 2008, and 2009. —Granger (talk · contribs) 08:00, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Mx. Granger: Wow! I didn’t know you were literate in Uyghur, you should definitely add that to the brag boxes on your user page. Do you mind if I ping you in the future? We get a surprising number of Uyghur sources but have almost no editors literate in that language for verification. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:25, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Hi Horse Eye's Back, the ping didn't work but fortunately I checked back on this discussion. Unfortunately I am not literate in Uyghur (I wish I were!). I used Google Translate, cross-referenced with other online translation tools, to see what that source said. —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:45, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Oh ok, what interested you about that particular article in the first place? Did a third party point to it as containing an inaccuracy? I’m only fluent in one language so my personal judgement of RFA is based primarily on their publications in english. If theres a significant difference between the reliability of their different language services that would probably be important to note. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:50, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- I have the Abudureheman Abulikemu article on my watchlist, so I saw when it was added as a reference. It's conceivable that there might be a difference in reliability between languages. My impression of the English version is that it's basically propaganda. —Granger (talk · contribs) 19:46, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Quick question: I'm using google translate (like you) and I'm getting that the source reported that he had some spinal injury in 2003, rather than he ceased boxing altogether after that point. What are the other translation tools you've been using? I know translations of Uyghur by machines is rough, so I'm interested in learning more about the methods used. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 18:57, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- I also used Glosbe, Uighur Dictionary, and Uyghurche. As far as I can tell " مۇسابىقىگە قاتنىشىشتىن توختاپ" means something like "stopped participating in competitions", but I'd be happy to be corrected. —Granger (talk · contribs) 19:46, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- I think you’ve pulled a segment too small to be useful. I get "Well-known boxer Abdurrahman entered the tournament in 2003 with a back injury” from "تونۇلغان بوكس ماھىرى ئابدۇراخمان 2003-يىلى بەل ئومۇرتقىسى زەخىملىنىپ مۇسابىقىگە" Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:52, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Also I think you pulled your segment from the wrong line, you pulled it from the following line “قاتنىشىشتىن توختاپ قالغاندىن كېيىن مەشقاۋۇللۇق قىلىپ كېلىۋاتقان ئىدى." which translates as "He had been coaching since he stopped attending.” or something like that. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:06, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) When I copy the full sentence instead of just that phrase, Google Translate gives me "Internationally renowned boxer Abdurrahman has been coaching since 2003 when he suffered a spinal cord injury and stopped competing." In any case, this was just one example that came to mind. My overall impression of RFA is that it's a propaganda outlet, and I would not rely on it for factual claims. —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:09, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- I also used Glosbe, Uighur Dictionary, and Uyghurche. As far as I can tell " مۇسابىقىگە قاتنىشىشتىن توختاپ" means something like "stopped participating in competitions", but I'd be happy to be corrected. —Granger (talk · contribs) 19:46, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Oh ok, what interested you about that particular article in the first place? Did a third party point to it as containing an inaccuracy? I’m only fluent in one language so my personal judgement of RFA is based primarily on their publications in english. If theres a significant difference between the reliability of their different language services that would probably be important to note. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:50, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Hi Horse Eye's Back, the ping didn't work but fortunately I checked back on this discussion. Unfortunately I am not literate in Uyghur (I wish I were!). I used Google Translate, cross-referenced with other online translation tools, to see what that source said. —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:45, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Mx. Granger: Wow! I didn’t know you were literate in Uyghur, you should definitely add that to the brag boxes on your user page. Do you mind if I ping you in the future? We get a surprising number of Uyghur sources but have almost no editors literate in that language for verification. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:25, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Unreliable : Political propaganda, funded by the US Gov. Even our own article links without opposition to Propaganda & Psychological warfare.CommanderWaterford (talk) 11:52, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- unreliable; per WP:GLOBAL, we should not privilege US state propaganda media over those of other countries, such as Russia and China. NightHeron (talk) 12:02, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- We should treat government controlled news organisations like RFA on a case by case basis and not kneejerk rank them as unreliable. RT and Sputnik had a long history of dubious reporting when it came to issues that contradicted Russian interests, i.e. Syrian use of chemical weapons, MH-17 and the Skripal poisoning to name a few. I'm not familiar enough with RFA to make a judgement, but evidence needs to be given of its unreliability. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:58, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Question: Is it known for actually fabricating news, or simply skewing it in a pro US bias? Blueboar (talk) 17:47, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- There is no history of fabricating news but I think the pro-US/pro-Democracy bias is significant enough to impact reliability. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:50, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- If the bias does not result in fabrication or fake news, I don't see why we should classify it as unreliable (see WP:BIASED).--JBchrch (talk) 19:04, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- The impact is minor, I wouldn't use them in wikivoice (especially for a BLP claim) but I don’t see a problem using them with attribution. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:10, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- If the bias does not result in fabrication or fake news, I don't see why we should classify it as unreliable (see WP:BIASED).--JBchrch (talk) 19:04, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Good question. My problem is that they report in such a way that makes it difficult to determine whether it is outright fabrication or just creative reporting. See the Wuhan Crematorium story, which as far as I know, has not been backed up by other reporting. They refer to social media posts without linking or even citing the platform. They also regularly use extremely vague sources such as "A source close to the funeral industry surnamed Ma." https://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/wuhan-cremations-04062020143043.html Dhawk790 (talk) 19:11, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Reuters appears to have reported that cremations were happening en masse, with families not allowed to see bodies before they were burned. Bloomberg also reported (link to content republished by Time) along a similar vein to RFA. France24 seems to have done so as well. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 20:10, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- I don't know about direct fabrication of stories whole-cloth, but RFA does have a tendency to publish sensationalist claims that are poorly sourced (for example, relying heavily on social media). One recent example is their article claiming that tens of thousands of people died of CoVID-19 in Wuhan, based on a conspiracy theory from social media: Estimates Show Wuhan Death Toll Far Higher Than Official Figure. The story was prompted by social media speculation about the number of urns given out by crematoria in Wuhan after the 76-day lockdown ended (tens of thousands of people die in a city of 10 million in any given 76-day period). RFA began with that speculation, then did some interviews with various people identified as "Wuhan resident[s]" who provided evidence-free speculation, and then quoted a supposed "source" who said that there were people who died at home without seeking treatment (as happened all around the world). The article spitballs a few different numbers: 46800, 40000, 2000/day, etc., all based on extremely flimsy reasoning. The point of the article was to suggest that the "real" death toll was 10-20 times larger than reported. Subsequent studies, including seroprevalence studies published in Nature and PloS Neglected Tropical Diseases, have estimated the total number of people infected in Wuhan, finding results that are completely incompatible with RFA's wild estimates (unless you assume that CoVID-19 has a staggering infection fatality rate of 10-20%). Basically, RFA amplified wild social media speculation that turned out to be false.
- The example I've given is in line with RFA's historical mission. The Radio Free X outlets were historically set up in order to broadcast negative stories about the United States' Cold War foes (as opposed to Voice of America, which was supposed to project a positive image of the US). They typically publish stories in the local language first (the urn conspiracy theory story was first published in Mandarin and Cantonese, for example), with the goal of impacting public opinion in the countries they cover. They've undergone various reorganizations since, but the material they put out still follows a similar pattern as before. -Thucydides411 (talk) 15:18, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- There is no history of fabricating news but I think the pro-US/pro-Democracy bias is significant enough to impact reliability. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:50, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Reliable but attribute, their significant pro-US/pro-Democracy bias means that they should generally be used with care with appropriate attribution. That being said they have a reputation for fact checking and accuracy. They also have much more editorial independence than those outlets in Russia and China which NightHeron mentions and are headquartered in a country with the rule of law (something neither Russia or China has), I think NightHeron’s argument is a false equivalency. Also unlike the deprecated outlets from those countries RFA doesn’t habitually publish disinformation. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:55, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- So the US has the "rule of law" and its principal adversaries do not? Doesn't it depend on what you mean by "rule of law"? Do you mean a country that consistently follows international law in its dealings with other countries? Do you mean a country that enjoys a peaceful transfer of power? Do you mean a country whose population faithfully observes state and local emergency public health laws? In the latter case, note that China, thanks to its citizens' strict adherence to the law, has kept COVID-19 deaths to about 3 per million population, while the US is currently at about 1500 deaths per million population. Many Americans might see their country as the shining example of rule of law and faithful dissemination of the truth, but WP:GLOBAL asks us to try to take a more international perspective. NightHeron (talk) 20:13, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- By rule of law I mean rule of law, I apologize if you’ve never encountered this concept before. Strict adherence to the law =/= rule of law. Neither China or Russia has an independent court system or a legal system which applies equally to the citizenry and the government (in China the CCP is literally above the law). Also if you want to talk about a country that has both a population which faithfully observes state and local emergency public health laws as well as the rule of law might I point you to Taiwan, which also has a much lower death rate than China. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:40, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- No need to apologize; I know what "rule of law" means. But which country is better or worse is a matter of opinion. Many people, including many Americans, do not consider the US to be an exemplar of equal treatment of citizens under the law -- rich and poor, powerful and powerless, white and racial minority. Also, I wasn't suggesting that only adversaries of the US have been doing a good job controlling the pandemic. New Zealand's done great, as has the US state of Hawaii.
- Getting back to RFA, although some Americans like to think of US propaganda as benign advocacy for democracy, that POV is not a global perspective. NightHeron (talk) 16:31, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Its true that "Many people, including many Americans, do not consider the US to be an exemplar of equal treatment of citizens under the law” but rule of law is a low bar... Remember you’re comparing America to two of the worst countries in the world in this regard. For instance on the Press Freedom Index the United States is #45 with a score of 23.85 (low is good), Russia is #149 with a score of 48.92, China is #177 (four from the bottom) with a score of 78.48. America’s state media wouldn't look good if you weren’t comparing it to the worst of the worst. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:52, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- By rule of law I mean rule of law, I apologize if you’ve never encountered this concept before. Strict adherence to the law =/= rule of law. Neither China or Russia has an independent court system or a legal system which applies equally to the citizenry and the government (in China the CCP is literally above the law). Also if you want to talk about a country that has both a population which faithfully observes state and local emergency public health laws as well as the rule of law might I point you to Taiwan, which also has a much lower death rate than China. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:40, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- So the US has the "rule of law" and its principal adversaries do not? Doesn't it depend on what you mean by "rule of law"? Do you mean a country that consistently follows international law in its dealings with other countries? Do you mean a country that enjoys a peaceful transfer of power? Do you mean a country whose population faithfully observes state and local emergency public health laws? In the latter case, note that China, thanks to its citizens' strict adherence to the law, has kept COVID-19 deaths to about 3 per million population, while the US is currently at about 1500 deaths per million population. Many Americans might see their country as the shining example of rule of law and faithful dissemination of the truth, but WP:GLOBAL asks us to try to take a more international perspective. NightHeron (talk) 20:13, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Well, it's all a matter of opinion. Is it worse for the CCP to be largely above the law in China, or for the rich and powerful to be largely above the law in the US (or for prosecutors whose misconduct sends innocent Black men to death row to have impunity, per today's NY Times)? Many Western sources might say that the former is worse, but, again, that's not a global perspective.
- Much of the Western press, including the NY Times, has been complaining that the Chinese government and media have been spinning the COVID-19 story in China into a narrative of success, rather than telling the truth. I scratch my head when I read this. Three per million dead from COVID aot 1500 per million. What's not to like? A friend from Iran told me that China has been a life-saver for the people back home, who would otherwise be cut off from assistance because of sanctions. Of course, China's humanitarian assistance is motivated by national self-interest, just as the US's is.
- My only point is that we as Wikipedia editors should try to see things globally, free of a pro-US bias. NightHeron (talk) 21:55, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- That doesnt appear to be your only point, you also seem to be making a point about the reliability of RFA. I don’t think anyone takes Chinese COVID numbers any more seriously than they took SARS numbers (or Chinese government statistics in general for that matter), we know the Chinese are lying... We don’t know what the real numbers are but we do know that China has been fibbing about the numbers since day 1. If China’s response had been successful we wouldn't have a pandemic. The Chinese government and media have been spinning the COVID-19 story in China into a narrative of success, thats backed up by reporting in a plethera of both western and non-western media. It is in fact the truth. If you say otherwise we’re going to need sources which support that fringe opinion. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:39, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- I don't think there's any indication that the numbers put out by the National Health Commission in China are any less accurate than the numbers put out by other countries. All countries suffered from similar issues early on (e.g., not enough testing capacity), and as a substantial fraction of cases are mild or asymptomatic, many people who get infected (in any country) never get tested, and therefore never show up in the official statistics. However, there have been several studies of seroprevalence within China (e.g., in Nature and PloS Neglected Tropical Diseases). From these studies, it's impossible for true mortality to be that much higher than the official figures, unless you make extreme assumptions about the infection fatality rate (i.e., far greater than 1%). One of the ways that RFA's biases have affected its factual accuracy over the last year is that it has published truly wild claims about the number of CoVID-19 deaths in Wuhan. RFA ran this story, based largely on social media posts and speculation from random residents of Wuhan that RFA says it contacted, which threw around numbers like 42,000 and 46,800 deaths in Wuhan, which are an order of magnitude higher than the totals suggested by seroprevalence (you'd have to assume an infection fatality rate of over 10% to get death totals that high). Essentially, RFA amplified wild social media speculation that turned out to be way off. Given the history of RFA as a Cold War propaganda outlet, that's not surprising. -Thucydides411 (talk) 15:40, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- You’ve seen no indications that China has issues with the accuracy of government statistics, government transparency, and academic freedom? Well then, carry on. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:09, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- As I said, I've seen no evidence of significant problems with the CoVID-19 statistics. On the contrary, seroprevalence studies are consistent with the death tolls reported by the National Health Commission, but importantly for this discussion, are completely inconsistent with the numbers the RFA hypothesized in the article I linked above (and not just by a bit - we're talking about RFA inflating the numbers by a factor of 10). -Thucydides411 (talk) 17:37, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- You’ve seen no indications that China has issues with the accuracy of government statistics, government transparency, and academic freedom? Well then, carry on. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:09, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- I don't think there's any indication that the numbers put out by the National Health Commission in China are any less accurate than the numbers put out by other countries. All countries suffered from similar issues early on (e.g., not enough testing capacity), and as a substantial fraction of cases are mild or asymptomatic, many people who get infected (in any country) never get tested, and therefore never show up in the official statistics. However, there have been several studies of seroprevalence within China (e.g., in Nature and PloS Neglected Tropical Diseases). From these studies, it's impossible for true mortality to be that much higher than the official figures, unless you make extreme assumptions about the infection fatality rate (i.e., far greater than 1%). One of the ways that RFA's biases have affected its factual accuracy over the last year is that it has published truly wild claims about the number of CoVID-19 deaths in Wuhan. RFA ran this story, based largely on social media posts and speculation from random residents of Wuhan that RFA says it contacted, which threw around numbers like 42,000 and 46,800 deaths in Wuhan, which are an order of magnitude higher than the totals suggested by seroprevalence (you'd have to assume an infection fatality rate of over 10% to get death totals that high). Essentially, RFA amplified wild social media speculation that turned out to be way off. Given the history of RFA as a Cold War propaganda outlet, that's not surprising. -Thucydides411 (talk) 15:40, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- That doesnt appear to be your only point, you also seem to be making a point about the reliability of RFA. I don’t think anyone takes Chinese COVID numbers any more seriously than they took SARS numbers (or Chinese government statistics in general for that matter), we know the Chinese are lying... We don’t know what the real numbers are but we do know that China has been fibbing about the numbers since day 1. If China’s response had been successful we wouldn't have a pandemic. The Chinese government and media have been spinning the COVID-19 story in China into a narrative of success, thats backed up by reporting in a plethera of both western and non-western media. It is in fact the truth. If you say otherwise we’re going to need sources which support that fringe opinion. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:39, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- My only point is that we as Wikipedia editors should try to see things globally, free of a pro-US bias. NightHeron (talk) 21:55, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Generally Reliable. Even though RFA takes U.S. government funds, the consensus among RS seems to be that RFA is a reliable news agency. News organizations often cite specific numbers published by RFA, and even use RFA as the sole source for their reporting, as I note below.
- Multiple RS have used RFA as their sources, including The Wall Street Journal (1, 2) and The New York Times, which has both cited it as the basis of their reporting (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9) and directly republished stories written by RFA. As can be noted by clicking through the links, these sources cite RFA even when China is the subject of the events depicted in the articles themselves.
- There are reliable sources that have explicitly upheld the reliability of RFA as it pertains to issues of controversy, including the Uyghur genocide. According to The Atlantic, "from the day China’s detention campaign began in earnest, RFA’s Uighur Service—the only Uighur-language news outlet in the world that is independent of Chinese government influence—has frequently been at the tip of the spear of coverage. From the RFA offices in Washington, D.C., its team of 12 journalists has broken hundreds of stories, sometimes bearing sole witness to China’s alarming and escalating crackdown on Uighurs and other Muslim minority groups in the country." The magazine regularly cites reporting from RFA as a source for news in China, even on topics of controversy (1, 2). In other times The Atlantic has reported that RFA provides "independent news to many rural Cambodians".
- The Financial Times has also used RFA's reporting in order to write its own stories (1, 2, 3, 4).
- The RS that report this are not limited to those RS that are based within the United States and the United Kingdom. Al-Jazeera has also repeatedly used RFA as a source for their reporting on topics of controversy within China (1, 2, 3, 4) and Burma (1). Spain-based El País has used RFA as a basis for its reporting on the events in Xinjiang. RFA has even been cited by Argentina-based Clarín on topics involving North Korea.
- If there is any bias, it may be in the selection of which stories RFA covers, as has been alleged by prior readers, but selection bias does not impugn reliability in the stories that the agency chooses to report. It should also be noted that anonymous sources are regularly used by RS, and may be the only way to truthfully obtain information in certain circumstances. It seems to be generally reliable based upon the fact that other generally reliable news agencies regularly cite the group, even when the topic of the stories are the subject of public controversy. Neither OP nor other editors have alleged that Radio Free Asia has any sort of history of fabricating facts, so deprecation ought be out of consideration altogether. And, if The New York Times feels that RFA is reliable enough to directly republish their journalism, then I don't see why we have much of a case to say that RFA is unreliable for reporting facts on the ground. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 18:18, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- The Economist has also praised the quality of RFA's reporting (See: 1 and 2). - Amigao (talk) 19:01, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- This Salon (website) is a reliable media source reporting on RFA bias and how it creates an eco-chambers with US politicians. https://www.salon.com/2020/04/20/coronavirus-conspiracy-theories-go-from-the-margins-to-the-mainstream_partner/ Dhawk790 (talk) 19:14, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Just FYI thats a reprint from FAIR not a Salon piece, it is however reliable enough. I don’t see anything about echo chambers in there though. I also don’t see them criticizing RFA’s reliability. Reliable sources are allowed to be biased. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:23, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Note, "There is no consensus on the reliability of Salon." according to WP:RSP. (t · c) buidhe 19:41, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- A biased source does not mean an unreliable source. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:02, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Reliable; probably should use attribution. RFA provides a lot of unique sources of information and perspectives when it comes to oppressed communities such as the Tibetans. It was actually the first to report the 2008 Tibetan unrest (see, e.g., the WSJ's article). It has also won awards such as the Radio Television Digital News Association's Edward R. Murrow Award for multiple times (see, e.g., last year's list of winners). Normchou 💬 19:36, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Reliable the above evidence suggests that the outlet has a strong reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. May need attribution in some cases. (t · c) buidhe 23:55, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
- Reliable. I do not see any real indications it is not reliable. "is a US government funded news source". Well, good for them, that does not affect reliability. Of course if they were funded by Putin, it would be different story. "They almost only publish news critical of enemies of the United States"? This is BS, none of these countiries is an enemy of US. My very best wishes (talk) 00:05, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Not unacceptable, if properly attributed I tried to find coverage of this event in other international media, and most of what I found was virulently anti-Chinese sources, so I'm naturally skeptical. Moreover, the date of his arrest for the flyers seems to be contradicted by several of these other sources.[180][181] All of these sources are published by entities that either directly have, or are owned or overseen by governments that have, their own "beef" with Beijing, which would not be a problem if we attribute their views/claims appropriately, but why does the RFA source seem to have its information contradicted by The Hans India and The Tibet Post? It might be a translation telephone game, since I doubt Richard Finney (by whom the linked article was "written in English") has any direct access to primary sources. It would, of course, depend on the context in which it is being cited; the RFA website seems to consider "Tibet", "Uyghur" and "China" to be separate countries, which certainly does not align with NPOV or the official foreign policies of any country anywhere in the world. On a more general note, RFA certainly doesn't seem to be free of US government interference: doing a Google News search for "Radio Free Asia" -site:rfa.org right now brings up, on the first page, several articles published immediately after Biden's inauguration that either accuse the Biden administration of ousting Trump appointees or praise the Biden administration for giving these outlets back their previous editors.[182][183][184] Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:17, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Re
the RFA website seems to consider "Tibet", "Uyghur" and "China" to be separate countries, which certainly does not align with NPOV
: WP:NPOV is a requirement for editing articles. It is precisely because different sources have different POVs that Wikipedia requires NPOV to "[represent] fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic". Normchou 💬 04:25, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Re
- NPOV is a requirement for our articles, not our editors. If we use excessively biased sources, we need other reliable sources to balance/fact-check them. Excessively biased sources are not outright banned by our normal editing practices, but said editing practices require that we use such sources with care. Anyway, it's super-weird for me, a 16-year Wikipedia veteran to be talked down to about our policies and guidelines by so many new editors who seem to be themselves somewhat unclear on the points they are discussing. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:29, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Re
NPOV is a requirement for our articles, not our editors
: in your comments above, you were citing NPOV and applying it to a source—not even editors. Looking at WP:NPOV#Explanation of the neutral point of view, one can see it is clearly describing the proper behavior of editors when editing articles. I have no comment regarding your "16-year Wikipedia veteran" thingy though. Normchou 💬 15:24, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Re
- NPOV is a requirement for our articles, not our editors. If we use excessively biased sources, we need other reliable sources to balance/fact-check them. Excessively biased sources are not outright banned by our normal editing practices, but said editing practices require that we use such sources with care. Anyway, it's super-weird for me, a 16-year Wikipedia veteran to be talked down to about our policies and guidelines by so many new editors who seem to be themselves somewhat unclear on the points they are discussing. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:29, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Hijiri88: I'm not sure where you're getting that RFA considers "Tibet", "Uyghur", and "China" to be a separate countries. The main page of RFA has an enumerated list of "Topics" in the footer, which list "Tibet", "Uyghur", and "China" separately, but I don't think that would be enough to make the claim that RFA says they are indeed separate countries. Would you be willing to provide a link to where RFA affirms that it considers "Tibet", "Uyghur", and "China" to be separate countries? If so, it would be helpful in clarifying the discussion around this point. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 04:41, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Please refrain from pinging the same user multiple times in succession. Anyway [185]
Tibet, a formerly independent Himalayan country which was invaded and incorporated into China by force in 1950
; as for Xinjiang, it's weaker, but this article does imply thatthe region [hadn't] come under Chinese control [until after] two short-lived East Turkestan republics in the 1930s and 1940s
(i.e. following the Warlord Era and during the Second Sino-Japanese War and the Chinese Civil War, none of which seem to be mentioned, nor the Protectorate of the Western Regions). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:24, 16 February 2021 (UTC)- Are you seriously suggesting they’re unreliable because they didn’t mention ancient history (that would be like saying an article about Brexit that doesn’t mention the roman occupation of Britain renders its publication unreliable)? Also I believe you’re misinterpreting NPOV, even if RFA treated them as three separate countries (they don’t) it wouldn't be an NPOV issue. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:50, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Please refrain from pinging the same user multiple times in succession. Anyway [185]
- @Hijiri88: You bring up three links to back up your claim that RFA
"doesn't seem to be free of US government interference"
. I'm not sure that the articles you chose actually back up this claim.- Having looked, and even per your own brief analysis here (before the borderline No True Scotsman argument), RFA doesn't appear to being calling these separate modern countries at all. Note that it refers to Xinjiang as a region, and never as a country; similarly, they are not claiming that Tibet is still an independent country. Hijiri88, I think your assessment that they regard either of these places as "separate countries", as you say, may be a bit flawed. And as the other two editors pointed out, NPOV isn't a policy applicable to sources. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 06:13, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- RFA clearly states that Tibet was an independent country pre-1950. This is a very controversial statement, given Tibet's lack of international recognition at the time. Tibet was de facto independent, but internationally recognized as part of China. This was during a time of civil war in China, so much of the country was beyond the control of the central government. Yet RFA makes a definitive statement that Tibet was an independent country. Given the historical purpose of RFA, there appears to be a political motive behind this claim, just as there would be if a Russian state outlet were to refer to South Ossetia as an independent country, omitting the fact that it is internationally recognized as part of Georgia. This is an example of the type of area in which RFA's reliability is affected by its political objectives. -Thucydides411 (talk) 08:45, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- As you note, it was a de-facto independent country. What is stated is simply factual. And no, the international community absolutely did not see Tibet as a part of China, and there was in fact a consensus in place to keep China from annexing Tibet, and to keep the Tibetan government independent of Chinese rule. But Tibet was isolationist, and thus the international community recognized the de-facto suzerainty of China, as Tibet wasn't interested in international affairs beyond its continued independence and a promise of non-interference. Regardless of all this, your reading of a political motive in RFA's acknowledgement of the political reality before the establishment of the PRC is just that: you inferring a political motive where I think none is implied. There's also no need to bring up a hypothetical whataboutism. The "historical purpose" of RFA was to provide factual reporting in places where none existed, due to government censorship and propaganda. It's not nefarious. RFA (and its sister organization, VOA) is internationally recognized as an outlet for reliable factual journalism, and has garnered a veritable cornucopia of awards in journalism over the years to prove it. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 19:30, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- RFA clearly states that Tibet was an independent country pre-1950. This is a very controversial statement, given Tibet's lack of international recognition at the time. Tibet was de facto independent, but internationally recognized as part of China. This was during a time of civil war in China, so much of the country was beyond the control of the central government. Yet RFA makes a definitive statement that Tibet was an independent country. Given the historical purpose of RFA, there appears to be a political motive behind this claim, just as there would be if a Russian state outlet were to refer to South Ossetia as an independent country, omitting the fact that it is internationally recognized as part of Georgia. This is an example of the type of area in which RFA's reliability is affected by its political objectives. -Thucydides411 (talk) 08:45, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Having looked, and even per your own brief analysis here (before the borderline No True Scotsman argument), RFA doesn't appear to being calling these separate modern countries at all. Note that it refers to Xinjiang as a region, and never as a country; similarly, they are not claiming that Tibet is still an independent country. Hijiri88, I think your assessment that they regard either of these places as "separate countries", as you say, may be a bit flawed. And as the other two editors pointed out, NPOV isn't a policy applicable to sources. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 06:13, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- The first article you are citing show that VOA and RFA worry about the perception changing due to the Trump Administration's (failed, per "
Pack had vowed to break down the legally guaranteed firewall against meddling in editorial decisions
" and the article being about Pack resigning) attempt to undermine their editorial independence. It doesn't say that Pack succeeded in doing so (and it implies that his resignation ensured quite the opposite), but the article primarily is focused on cataloguing the potential for reputational damage that the journalists there worry about. In other words, the article doesn't actually say that the outlet has become less reliable, but its showing that journalists worry that it will be perceived as less reliable due to the Trump Administration's attempted meddling. - The second article you cited actually serves to affirm the claim that RFA and VOA have historically been reliable (at least prior to Pack), as it says, that Pack "
intended to turn venerable U.S. media outlets into pro-Trump propaganda machines"
. There's an implication here that RFA and VOA were reliable before Pack, and that Pack tried to undermine that. - The third article is identical to the first article, as it was written by AFP and then republished by both of the news agencies. I'm not sure why you included it, since it doesn't add any additional information (aside from labeled photos of reporters for VOA and RFA). Why did you choose to tack this link on? — Mikehawk10 (talk) 04:35, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- I apologize if I misinterpreted anything. I noticed a trend in the GNews results when I tried to verify the claim made by a number of people further up this RFC (including you) that a plurality of third-party media consider RFA to be a generally reputable/trustworthy source. I was, of course, unable to find anything that supported your assertions, and indeed, even if what I found didn't explicitly discredit your assertions, that doesn't support the positive claims you made above (that various other media rely on RFA) and are now making (that RFA's being funded by the US government and being a direct successor to a CIA domino theory operation doesn't imply they are a US government mouthpiece). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:24, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Generally Reliable RFA and VOA were specifically founded and structured to bring RS-quality news media to regions/languages where it didn't exist, because spreading RS-quality news-media and demonstrating the benefits of press independence is a US foreign policy goal. It's specious to treat all government-funded news organizations as equivalent, because the real distinction is what purposes they serve and what processes they have. RT doesn't produce unacceptable propaganda because it's government funded, it's unacceptable because Russian foreign policy is to spread disinformation and lies to weaken its adversaries, and it's well-documented that RT does that. What really matters is the processes that RFA has, and they are those of a reliable news outlet. Furthermore RFA and VOA are important sources for Wikipedia, because the often attempt to do RS-quality reporting in regions that are extremely hostile to it. Also, other RS trust it enough to rely on its reporting, for instance: [186], [187], [188], [189], [190]: "Radio Free Asia (RFA), a US-backed news group whose journalists have produced some of the most detailed reporting on the heavily securitised region of Xinjiang", [191], [192]. - GretLomborg (talk) 17:59, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- I'd just like to point out that the Radio Free X stations were founded by a CIA front organizations, and were tasked with broadcasting negative stories about the Soviet Bloc and other foes of the US into the respective countries. The history is discussed here. They've been reorganized over time, and claim to be editorially independent of the US government, but both recent events (namely Trump's blatant influencing of government broadcasters) and a casual glance at the coverage of these broadcasters (it's a who's who of countries the US government does not like, such as Cuba and Iran) should give editors pause. -Thucydides411 (talk) 18:13, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- Negative stories aren't bad things, in fact I'd say they're a key function of journalism: shining light on the bad things no person or organization would willingly reveal about themselves. Given the whole point of RFA is to be beamed into areas where RS journalism isn't allowed (due to political control) and to demonstrate its value, I'd actually expect an excess of negativity, since that's where the need is. Pravda and Xinhua can be trusted to tell the positives stories, even if they're lies. Negative stories are only bad things if they're untrue or deliberate lies. I did have a lot of concerns about what was going on at VOA/RFA towards the end of the Trump administration, and I may have voted differently if Trump gotten a second term, but Biden has cleaned the Trump stay-behinds out [193] and replaced them with long-serving agency staff, so and I don't have any concerns for at least the next four years. - GretLomborg (talk) 19:49, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- Negative stories aren't in themselves bad, but we should be cautious about a US government outlet whose main purpose is to make foreign governments that the US regards as foes look bad. That often leads RFA to promote poorly sourced stories, such as its wild claims about the death toll from CoVID-19 in Wuhan. As I explained in a comment above, RFA took a conspiracy theory from social media, then spoke with a few random Wuhan residents, and wrote a story speculating that over 40,000 people had died of CoVID-19 in Wuhan. This turns out to be about 10 times higher than any reasonable death toll one could estimate from the seroprevalence in Wuhan. You say that their purpose is to provide independent, reliable reporting in places where it is lacking, but an alternative view is that their purpose is to promote negative content, often with little regard for the strength of the sourcing, in countries that the US has poor relations with (typically old Cold War foes). This is something that editors should be aware of when considering whether/how to use RFA. When RFA reports on countries that are perceived by the US as foes, it would be prudent to include in-line attribution for RFA's claims. -Thucydides411 (talk) 09:03, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Negative stories aren't bad things, in fact I'd say they're a key function of journalism: shining light on the bad things no person or organization would willingly reveal about themselves. Given the whole point of RFA is to be beamed into areas where RS journalism isn't allowed (due to political control) and to demonstrate its value, I'd actually expect an excess of negativity, since that's where the need is. Pravda and Xinhua can be trusted to tell the positives stories, even if they're lies. Negative stories are only bad things if they're untrue or deliberate lies. I did have a lot of concerns about what was going on at VOA/RFA towards the end of the Trump administration, and I may have voted differently if Trump gotten a second term, but Biden has cleaned the Trump stay-behinds out [193] and replaced them with long-serving agency staff, so and I don't have any concerns for at least the next four years. - GretLomborg (talk) 19:49, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- I'd just like to point out that the Radio Free X stations were founded by a CIA front organizations, and were tasked with broadcasting negative stories about the Soviet Bloc and other foes of the US into the respective countries. The history is discussed here. They've been reorganized over time, and claim to be editorially independent of the US government, but both recent events (namely Trump's blatant influencing of government broadcasters) and a casual glance at the coverage of these broadcasters (it's a who's who of countries the US government does not like, such as Cuba and Iran) should give editors pause. -Thucydides411 (talk) 18:13, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- Reliable and biased. In addition to the uses by various RS enumerated by Mikehawk10 above, they do correct stories when they get something wrong.[194][195] At the same time, the US gov't bias is clear. Adoring nanny (talk) 10:02, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- RFA often publishes rumors from unverified sources and these rumors have been used for WP:EXTRAORDINARY claims. I would rather use WP:INTEXT attribution for it. --MarioGom (talk) 14:54, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- Unreliable for insider stories, reliable for verifiable claims: The main problem I see with RFA is that a lot of its own reporting falls under extraordinary claims, yet is based on unverifiable, "anonymous RFA sources". Obviously every source is biased, government-sponsored ones perhaps often moreso than others (and that in itself is fine), but it does become problematic when a lot of the own reporting of a government-sponsored outlet is simply unverifiable (example 1, example 2, example 3) but used for extraordinary claims and then presented as fact. If it is kept, I would say that given the US itself has banned RFA from targetting American audiences under the Smith-Mundt Act, it should never be used for any claims that are based on "anonymous RFA sources" and can therefore in no way be verified. Sarrotrkux (talk) 20:11, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
Splinter News (Splinternews.com) & G/O Media
- https://splinternews.com/proud-boys-failed-to-redact-their-new-dumb-bylaws-and-a-1830700905
- https://splinternews.com/the-proud-boys-hilarious-slow-motion-disintegration-con-1830739264
These two sources as used in the article Proud Boys. From what I gather, I see Splinter News is the successor to Gawker and they appear to have some connection. Gawker which is listed as unreliable in WP:RSP. The wiki article on Splinter News suggests its a liberal bias opinion and news site. Is it any different in reliability and neutrality from Gawker as far as Wiki source usage is concerned? Graywalls (talk) 07:13, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- G/O Media owns a number of web properties with different reliability classifications, including The A.V. Club (RSP entry) – generally reliable, Jezebel (RSP entry) – marginally reliable, and The Onion (RSP entry) – generally unreliable. I wouldn't automatically link Splinter News to Gawker (RSP entry) unless there is a clear connection, e.g. if it inherited prominent members of Gawker's staff. — Newslinger talk 07:22, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- The last articles by the authors of those two articles were "A Guide to Today's Juiciest Feud Featuring Two British Footballers' Wives and a Fake News Sting" ("image removed due to legal reasons") and "The Queasy Power of Shamelessness" respectively. -- Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:08, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
Reliability of Radio Free Asia
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:CommanderWaterford appears to have a history of tagging articles without meaningfully engaging in discussion around the reliability of specific sources and Wikipedia's policies. The most recent case of tagging was on the Mya Thwe Thwe Khaing article, where they simply left an edit summary comment stating: "Radio Free Asia+The Irradaway+Progressive Voice are not reliable sources." I wanted to seek community guidance on whether Radio Free Asia, which is similar to the Voice of America from a funding perspective, can be used as a reliable source. I will also note that in Myanmar's historically restrictive press environment, RFA has been one of the few uncensored Burmese language news sources. This has been especially true during the ongoing media blackout in Myanmar, related to the recent coup.
There are ongoing discussions re: Voice of America and The Irrawaddy (see Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard § Voice of America (VOA)) and Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard § The Irrawaddy) also related to said user's edits. Thanks. -Hintha(t) 08:22, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Hintha, Please refrain in future from insinuations a la "without meaningfully engaging". You are constantly publishing articles with the help of using at least of dubious sources in the shadow of the recent Myanmar Coup. I had to correct several statements done by you, last time e.g. today saying that UN Counselor of Burma condemned the shooting as a crime on Twitter which he clearly not did etc. etc. We can fairly discuss the reliability of those sources but I like to remind you on one of the 5 pillars of WK which is WP:NPOV. CommanderWaterford (talk) 08:33, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Yes same problem here Sir Hintha. I do not really understand What does he want to be?. CommanderWaterford...Are you deliberately harassing us? Your actions are not normal. Taung Tan (talk) 08:59, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- I also would like to mention a natural editor Doncram who helped me in problem. Pls See also Talk:Khin Thiri Thet Mon#sources, ([196]- [197]), ([198]-[199]), [200], Talk:Nang Lang Kham#Edit War and many more... Shame on you CommanderWaterford. Taung Tan (talk) 09:08, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Yes same problem here Sir Hintha. I do not really understand What does he want to be?. CommanderWaterford...Are you deliberately harassing us? Your actions are not normal. Taung Tan (talk) 08:59, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Is i (newspaper) reliable?
Since 2019, the British i (newspaper) has been owned by the Daily Mail and General Trust. Most other publications owned by the Daily Mail and General Trust are now depreciated as poor quality sources (Daily Mail, MailOnline, Metro (British newspaper)). Although the i was reputable historically, I am concerned based on the fact that it's owned by a group with poor quality sources. Do people think the i is still a reliable source or not? Joseph2302 (talk) 13:42, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, it's still reliable. It still seems reasonably left-wing in its editorial line, so I presume editorial independence has been maintained for the time being. One to watch for the future perhaps. Boynamedsue (talk) 15:06, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Still reliable except for issues regarding the Daily Mail and General Trust. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:59, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- I would probably agree with that qualification. Boynamedsue (talk) 11:32, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
Encyclopaedia.com
Is this an RS [[201]] for the claim the nazis were not facists?Slatersteven (talk) 15:46, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- The source is RS, but what's the quote from it you are basing the claim on? Boynamedsue (talk) 16:11, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- I am not, its being used by another user to prove their point we can't call the Nazi's fascist because modern scholarship says they were not.Slatersteven (talk) 16:14, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- What talkpage? Boynamedsue (talk) 16:17, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- NAzi Germany, but its split between three threads, here is the one in question [[202]], its all over the place and is getting a bit hard to follow.Slatersteven (talk) 16:20, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- What talkpage? Boynamedsue (talk) 16:17, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- I am not, its being used by another user to prove their point we can't call the Nazi's fascist because modern scholarship says they were not.Slatersteven (talk) 16:14, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- It seems it is a collection of works published elsewhere. Thus, a quick googling of the phrase "Fascist and Nazi movements appeared throughout Europe during the period between World Wars I and II" gives this (which is a reliable source). This source speaks about Nazism and Fascism as somewhat different categories, but I didn't find a clear claim that Nazis were not Fascists. I would say it is an original research to say that.
- --Paul Siebert (talk) 16:30, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Is encyclopedia.com a source at all? I thought they were an encyclopedia collator. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:35, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah, but I think it is supported by the publishers of the original encyclopaedias, so it would be exactly the same level of RS as the volume it cites? In this case it is almost certainly kosher. Boynamedsue (talk) 17:43, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Is it? I don’t see the claim that the Nazis were not fascists in there. I also don’t think the Encyclopedia of European Social History is a WP:RS. What makes you think they are? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:48, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Oh no, it doesn't support the claim that the nazis weren't fascists, but it does look to be RS. Published by Charles Scribner's Sons, academic contributors. Like I say, looks kosher. Boynamedsue (talk) 18:02, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Ah good, that was getting tedious. Also lets have a little sensitivity re Nazis and kosher. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:15, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Oh no, it doesn't support the claim that the nazis weren't fascists, but it does look to be RS. Published by Charles Scribner's Sons, academic contributors. Like I say, looks kosher. Boynamedsue (talk) 18:02, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Is it? I don’t see the claim that the Nazis were not fascists in there. I also don’t think the Encyclopedia of European Social History is a WP:RS. What makes you think they are? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:48, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah, but I think it is supported by the publishers of the original encyclopaedias, so it would be exactly the same level of RS as the volume it cites? In this case it is almost certainly kosher. Boynamedsue (talk) 17:43, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
Chronos Encyclopeadia
Hi Folks! Does anybody consider the Russian Chronos encyclopedia to be reliable as a source? It is located here: [203]. I have an editor who is using it at: Draft:Peter Moskatov and I have a feeling it is a bit dodgy as it doesn't even have a site x509 certificate. It could be good, but don't know. scope_creepTalk 19:16, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- "The website had been Russia's largest online history resource, widely used by scholars in Russia and elsewhere as a unique source of biographical and historical material." [204] and "Hrono.ru offers a chronology in Russian. This chronology is very detailed and can be viewed by century, by clicking on any of the century or decade links seen at the top of the page" [205] seem to put in the reliable side. -- Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:04, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- I would like to see some evidences that it is widely used by Russian scholars. It seems overwhelming majority of authors as well as the editor-in-chief are self-appointed "historians", although some authors (Teslya) have PhD in history and are real scholars. It seems it is mostly a self-published source according to our criteria.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:23, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Do you think we need a RFC since we have two opposing views? scope_creepTalk 19:00, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- I would like to see some evidences that it is widely used by Russian scholars. It seems overwhelming majority of authors as well as the editor-in-chief are self-appointed "historians", although some authors (Teslya) have PhD in history and are real scholars. It seems it is mostly a self-published source according to our criteria.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:23, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
RFC CHRONOS
This is an RFC to determine if the Encyclopedia Chronos is a reliable source. It is located at [206] It has no Wikipedia page and the site itself doesn't have an SSL certificate, perhaps indicating it has been run by a team of volunteers with little money. It is a Russian encyclopedia that I've seen used in multiple places but up to this point, it has not been investigated as an RS. There has been no prior discussion apart from the previous two statements. scope_creepTalk 12:19, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
Which of the following best describes the reliability of Encyclopedia Chronos?
- Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting
- Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
- Option 3: Generally unreliable for factual reporting
- Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated
scope_creepTalk 12:19, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
Responses
The Motley Fool
The Motley Fool is cited over and over in finance articles, and I am wondering it it's actually a reliable source. From what I can gather, it's not really a WP:NEWSORG, but a firm that provides various services and, among other, publishes its own research. Their "about us" page is pretty vague. The NYT has described it as a "financial services" firm [207] and the WSJ as an "advisory firm" [208]. So based on that I guess it would qualify as WP:SELFPUB?--JBchrch (talk) 22:55, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- We currently have 827 citations per fool.com
. I don't think that Motley Fool is a terrible source but they are ultimately a stock picking company. I think its probably fine for uncontroversial statements of fact, but any analysis should probably be attributed. Hemiauchenia (talk) 23:00, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
- Gooood question! It's a bit NEWSBLOG-like. They are a source of information a lot of people use. Not quite a NEWSORG, as you note. I'm not quite sure how to class them - David Gerard (talk) 10:21, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- I’d say generally unreliable, they’re less reliable than a major brokerage or something like that and we wouldn’t treat traditional financial analysis outside of the press or academia from anyone else as reliable. They also seem to fit the lens of opinion/analysis more than anything else. At best these are opinion pieces in a marginally reliable source, I’m not seeing any benefit to using them. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:45, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- Given their clear conflict of interest, they likely should always be attributed. Even for apparent statements of fact, except for the most incontrovertible claims. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 05:59, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
RfC: The Canary
Which of the following best describes the reliability of The Canary?
- Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting
- Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
- Option 3: Generally unreliable for factual reporting
- Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated
— Newslinger talk 03:44, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
The Canary is a British left-wing news website founded in 2015. It is currently cited in 45 articles
. Prior discussions were polarized, and the most recent discussion (at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 321 § The Canary) was formally closed with a recommendation to start a proper request for comment. — Newslinger talk 03:44, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
Responses (The Canary)
- The Canary has previously been discussed four times on this noticeboard:
- Is the Canary a reliable source? (2018)
- Seeking acceptance of reliability of UK progressive online only news sites - The Canary, Evolve Politics and Skwawkbox (2019)
- The Canary (2020)
- The Canary (2020, formally closed in 2021)
- See also WT:RSP § The Canary. — Newslinger talk 05:13, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- I was generally unimpressed with the quality of these discussions: IIRC arguments for GU were not supported by any discussion of specific false factual claims on the site. Let's change that in this RfC. — Charles Stewart (talk) 08:07, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- The Canary and Sqwawkbox are almost always factually correct but almost always include the editorial perspective of the publication in the story. I don't quote know where that leaves us, as I would argue most mainstream publications do the same, but are not seen as biased because they reflect a dominant ideology rather than a minority one. Boynamedsue (talk) 08:29, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- I don't know of good evidence that the Canary are liars - I was distinctly unimpressed with the claims of such in previous discussions. OTOH, they're explicitly biased and proud. They're rather stronger on the opinion than, say, Byline Times, which also has a stance but is about being a proper news outlet for it. At the moment I'm thinking Canary might be "usable with attribution", and I'm not sure yet if they connote notability - David Gerard (talk) 10:16, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- Can I check what your argument is User:David Gerard? If we had eviednce they are "liars" wouldn't that translate to option 4 (deprecation), as "generally inaccurate for factual reporting" is a more modest claim than "they are liars"? I think the comparison with Byline Times is useful: Byline Times is biased too but has several indicators of reliability despite bias, such as an extremely experienced reporting team made of people with a track record for investigative journalism published in other reliable sources, whereas The Canary gives the impression of being a news source through using terms such as "Exclusive" or "uncovered" but no track record of actual investigative work. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:40, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- I just looked at The Canary. This is the first article. It describes new proposed reforms to the NHS and then summarises some criticisms of the proposals. Conveniently, this happens to be an area I work in. The individual summaries given of the proposals are accurate. Yet it is a selective presentation. The article begins, "Government plans to restructure the NHS have been met with criticism from academics and campaigners, as they warn the plans could see increased privatisation and cronyism." It's true that some academics and campaigners have made those criticisms, but that's a selective review of the reaction the proposals have garnered. The article cites a BMJ blog, but, for example, there's a BMJ article, which is a more formal piece than a BMJ blog, which is more balanced and nuanced about the proposals, and more optimistic about them. Then there's this BMJ editorial that is more critical, but its criticisms are not about "increased privatisation and cronyism". Other coverage of the reform proposals has likewise been more positive or concerned about different problems than the Canary's summary. If we were to have a Wikipedia article saying "Government plans to restructure the NHS were met with criticism from academics and campaigners, as they warned the plans could see increased privatisation and cronyism", citing The Canary, then that would be wrong, a failure of WP:NPOV and WP:BALANCE. The Canary, we all agree, has a very strong editorial view. Factual reporting done through such a lens can end up being misleading. I see nothing in this article of use to Wikipedia (editors can just go to the sources summarised instead). The Canary is not a big media organisation: the vast majority of what they cover will be covered by sources with less bias. Bondegezou (talk) 10:32, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- Let's look at another recent example: Covid colonialism: outbreak among UK troops could jeopardise Kenyan successes. Again, this article is largely summarising what other sources have said and appears accurate in doing so. Then it says, "The revelations raise concerns that the deployment may have brought UK strains of coronavirus to Kenya." There is no sourcing for that claim. It's not something a scientist has said. It's not something that the Kenyan health authorities have said, as far as I can see. The article goes on to quote two other reports, but neither is actually relevant to this claim. That's misleading and poor reporting. I've looked at 2 recent articles: both are somewhat dubious. I'll say Option 3. Bondegezou (talk) 16:17, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3 or 4 They regularly publish fake news as evidenced[209] by Stop Funding Fake News. I will also repost the links from a last discussion nothing has changed
- "Pro-Corbyn website The Canary denies it is antisemitic, then blames 'political Zionists' for forcing it to downsize". Jewish Chronicle. 2 August 2019. Retrieved 2020-11-19.
- Topple, Steve (27 September 2017). "We need to talk about Laura Kuenssberg. She's listed as an 'invited' speaker at the Tory Party conference". The Canary. Retrieved 2020-11-19.
- Lewis, Helen (27 September 2017). "The Canary is running a sexist hate campaign against Laura Kuenssberg for clicks". New Statesman. Retrieved 2020-11-19.
- Collins, John; Mills, Tom (29 September 2017). "The BBC versus The Canary: two experts have their say". The Conversation. Retrieved 2020-11-19.
- "Canary's story about Laura Kuenssberg 'breached press code'". BBC News. 20 December 2017. Retrieved 2020-11-19.
- Thanks for assembling this list. Of the points listed there, only the claim that Kuenssburg was to give an invited speech at the Tory conference involves a specific false claim and the Canary did retract that. The complaint you link to concerns use of a misleading headline, not false reporting. SFFN have sometimes done good work, but their campaign against The Canary has been weak. E.g., their exhibit #1, that The Canary pushed a Putin-friendly conspiracy theory in Official narrative used to bomb Syria in 2018 is disputed by leaked OPCW report is just them reporting on awkward questions raised by Peter Hitchens about the justification of the 2018 Syria bombing. Not only is this not tinfoil hat territory, it's the kind of detail that is under-reported in mainstream press and a reason for us to be concerned about RS/P becoming too narrow. I don't see a solid case for option 4 here. I'm leaning to either option 2 or 3. — Charles Stewart (talk) 12:48, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- I would just state that complaints against media sources are common and sometimes upheld (The Times had 5 upheld against it in 2015, for example) The Jewish Chronicle is itself an extremely opinionated source when it comes to matters relating to the Labour Party, and has a strong pro-Conservative bias. And the article you link does not show any objective reason to doubt the Canary as an RS. The opinion piece by Helen Lewis is again written by a strongly anti-Corbyn writer, and though the Canary has definitely been highly critical of Kuenssberg, she is a journalist whose work displays strong political biases in a position of great importance in the UK media. We might remember her immediate acceptance of the "attack" on a tory staffer, and her intervention to stop an angry father asking questions to Boris Johnson. I don't see anything in those links to disqualify the Canary a priori.Boynamedsue (talk) 11:45, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- Shrike BTW, after checking the 2019 press code violations, I found that the Canary had not violated the Press Code in that year, but the Jewish Chronicle had, 3 times, including making false accusations against a member of the Labour Party in Liverpool. There are also several false accusations relating to Labour Party members in 2020.Boynamedsue (talk) 12:10, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- Helen Lewis is a highly respected journalist working for a left-leaning, generally Labour supporting, reliable source. To dismiss her as "a strongly anti-Corbyn writer" is silly. Bondegezou (talk) 16:09, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- But she is a factional opponent of Corbyn writing an opinion piece about a Corbyn-supporting news outlet. I feel safe in dismissing that as opinion, while recognising her as a serious centre-left journalist. Boynamedsue (talk) 16:32, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- Helen Lewis is a highly respected journalist working for a left-leaning, generally Labour supporting, reliable source. To dismiss her as "a strongly anti-Corbyn writer" is silly. Bondegezou (talk) 16:09, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- Shrike BTW, after checking the 2019 press code violations, I found that the Canary had not violated the Press Code in that year, but the Jewish Chronicle had, 3 times, including making false accusations against a member of the Labour Party in Liverpool. There are also several false accusations relating to Labour Party members in 2020.Boynamedsue (talk) 12:10, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- The Canary is unambiguously an opinionated source, and there are times when you have to look through the opinion to get at the facts. Last time I looked in detail (which I admit was a while ago) there weren't any instances of fabrication but more than one of shaky extrapolation from facts that were more nuanced or less clear than a surface reading would have you believe (although this is something the mainstream UK tabloids also do, even if they are less upfront about their political perspective). I'd be wary of citing them without attribution, and certainly they should never be the only source for matters related to UK politics and closely related matters (for NPOV reasons) but I don't see a reason to prohibit it as a source. Thryduulf (talk) 12:05, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- Thinking about it a bit more, I think I'd say option 2 is the most appropriate. Generally reliable but strongly opinionated so be careful to cite facts not opinion, strongly consider attribution and never cite it as the only source for matters of UK politics. Thryduulf (talk) 15:19, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 1: The last time The Canary was discussed on this board, there weren't any serious cases of false reporting raised. The Canary is clearly favorable to the left-wing factions within (or formerly within) the Labour Party, so for contentious questions about Labour Party infighting (and similar issues), it may be appropriate to use in-line attribution when citing The Canary.
- Note that Stop Funding Fake News is a political advocacy group that is largely anonymous. There's no discernable reason why we should attribute any importance to the opinions of this group. The only people I've seen clearly associated with the group are Rachel Riley and Tracy Ann Oberman, both of whom campaigned against the left wing of Labour for alleged anti-Semitism. In other words, Stop Funding Fake News' campaign against The Canary looks like it's politically motivated, rather than being about actual fake news.
- The example that's given above, of The Canary's reporting on Kuenssberg, is relatively innocuous. The Canary reported that she had spoken at a Conservative Party conference. She had actually spoken at a fringe event associated with the conference. The Canary corrected its story.
- There have to be actual reasons for deprecation. I don't see any here. -Thucydides411 (talk) 14:27, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 2 There is little evidence of unreliability but as a study just released indicates "a strong editorial focus on criticising the government’s right-wing policy agenda, as well as opposition towards mainstream media – notably BBC news" then attribution is probably the safest course for the present.Selfstudier (talk) 16:41, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3+: The last time The Canary was discussed on this board, several examples were given of bad reporting, including misleading and sensationalist reporting, and of widespread description of its content as "fake news" by reliable sources. I'm pasting here my one set of examples I posted then: As well as (a) the misleading story about Laura Keunssberg,[210] and (b) conspiracy theories about Portland Communications,[211] (c) it published articles by Max Blumenthal (editor of Grayzone, a deprecated source) on a Nicaraguan-based journalist that were described by the Committee to Protect Journalists as a “targeted online harassment campaign” after which the journalist was detained, interrogated and deported, leading to the National Union of Journalists protesting against The Canary's editor.[212][213][214][215]; (d) as well as Grayzone contributors, it has contributors who write for outlets like MintPress and American Herald Tribune;[216] (e) it published deceptive claims about Labour Party funding that promote antisemitic conspiracy theories;[217] (f) it publishes conspiracy theories about Syrian chemical warfare;[218] (g) one of its regular contributors (best known for his antisemitic tweets[219]) was recruited to write for a fake news site set up by the Russian government;[220] (h) it published a Daily Mail-style misleading story about story about a junior doctor's suicide;[221] (i) it took 3 years to update a fake story about ISIS;[222] (j) it published Russian government sponsored fake news about the Salisbury chemical attack;[223][224] (k) before setting up the Canary its editor promoted the Zeitgeist conspiracy theory movement[225] and worked with Davide Icke on his People's Voice;[226] and (l) it published Pizzagate-style fake news about Seth Rich's murder.[227][228] While comments above suggest that it is being criticied because it is anti-Corbyn, it has been criticised by several Corbyn supporters such as Corbyn biographer Richard Seymour,[229] Owen Jones[230] or Momentum's David Osler.[231] (Note: I appreciate that not all my sources here are RSs by WP article standards, but should give enough inform ation for un-involved editors to come to a view.) BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:24, 17 February 2021 (UTC) Here's another example (m), from a 2018 article by the editor. Headline: "Israel put up a £1,000,000 bounty for Labour insiders to undermine Corbyn". Lede: "The second release from Al Jazeera‘s undercover sting operation on key members of the Israel lobby in Britain revealed a £1,000,000 plot by the Israeli government to undermine Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn." Dig into the actual story and you get a quote from Middle East Eye saying "Masot described taking delegations of Labour members on trips to Israel and told Joan Ryan, the chair of LFI, that he had he had been approved £1m ($1.2m) to fund further visits." In other words, money isn't "to undermine Corbyn" but to fund visits to the Middle East.[232] That's dishonest reporting which goes way beyond mere bias (and plays into antisemitic conspiracy theories). BobFromBrockley (talk) 18:05, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- Having looked through those, I don't see a great deal beyond what you would expect of any newspaper like the Times or the Guardian. The only actual factual problems are that of the £1 million donation which was part of a campaign whose instigators discussed "taking down" anti-Israel MPs. It's off, but you see worse on the BBC. The fact that £50k was given to Starmer's campaign by a pro-Israel lobbyist is entirely factual and relevant. The criticism of its clickbaity headlines is justified, especially in the past, but it does not falsify its factual reporting. This is less of a problem now since its change of business model following the boycott campaign led by that weird astroturf organisation. Boynamedsue (talk) 18:44, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you u|Boynamedsue. i disagree that these sorts of things are true of the Guardian. Worth adding that the "£1 million plot" was not just a clickbaity headline but an outright lie in the headline and, crucially, the lede, in an article written by the editor of the website so can't be blamed on an overzealous sub making a story more sensational. At the very least, this shows they why should never be used on any topic relating to Israel, Jews, antisemitism or Labour - but those topics are core to their output. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:12, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for the response BobFromBrockley. I would suggest that there is not an outright lie there, the Israeli lobbyists were discussing a plan to influence British politics, part of which was a gift of £1 million to LFI, another part of which was to bring down anti-Israel MP's. The headline is a stretch, but not much of one, I have seen worse on the BBC and the Times. The question of being unreliable on Israel, Labour and Antisemitism, as far as I know they have no violations of the press code recorded against them in this regard, whereas the Jewish Chronicle have several. Would you also support the JC being deprecated for this topic?--Boynamedsue (talk) 11:20, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you u|Boynamedsue. i disagree that these sorts of things are true of the Guardian. Worth adding that the "£1 million plot" was not just a clickbaity headline but an outright lie in the headline and, crucially, the lede, in an article written by the editor of the website so can't be blamed on an overzealous sub making a story more sensational. At the very least, this shows they why should never be used on any topic relating to Israel, Jews, antisemitism or Labour - but those topics are core to their output. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:12, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Can you pare down this list to examples that you actually think are fake news? You've included a mix of complaints, many of which don't have to do with accuracy. Just taking one of your points,
(j) it published Russian government sponsored fake news about the Salisbury chemical attack
, you accuse The Canary of spreading fake news, and insinuate that it's somehow being funded by the Russian government. Your only non-broken link to source this claim ([233]) itself looks highly suspect. It's a website that appears to be dedicated solely to attacking the Corbyn wing of the Labour Party, and the website also appears to have completely ceased publishing around the time that Corbyn left the leadership. It complains that The Canary quotes someone who pointed out that countries other than Russia have Novichok (which is true, not fake news). Essentially, the complaint is that The Canary did not immediately accept the UK government's claims about the Salisbury poisonings. -Thucydides411 (talk) 09:43, 18 February 2021 (UTC)- I am not arguing that The Canary routinely produces "fake news" (if it did I would suggest we'd need to go swiftly to deprecation) but that it is generally unreliable for factual reporting, as their reports include falseshoods, misleadingly selective presentation of facts, and state-sponsored propoganda, and that its journalistic team has no track record in decent journalism but on the contrary has a track record of publication in deprecated sources, antisemitic conspiracy theories and writing for state-sponsored fake news publications. I'll look at the Salisbury issue and return on that. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:12, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- You haven't actually shown that The Canary has published any anti-Semitic conspiracy theories or state-sponsored propaganda. Just take your last example: you're saying that The Canary's discussion of the pro-Israel lobby in the Labour Party plays into anti-Semitic tropes. How is a news organization supposed to discuss this issue? I don't see raising this issue in itself as anti-Semitic, and any such accusations should be well grounded. -Thucydides411 (talk) 14:10, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- I've given two examples above of how misleading reporting which plays into antisemitic tropes: (e) the example [234] given by veteran Marxist writer Bob Pitt (previously Ken Livingstone's researcher and editor of the website IslamophobiaWatch), who shows how an article by John McEvoy[235] is misleading: the source the Canary cites[236] shows that Starmer received some £455,000 from wealthy donors, but the Canary only ignores £405,000 of this and reports jsut one donation, by the only Jewish donor, Trevor Chinn, who is described by the Canary only in terms of his support for Israel, leaving out his long history of Labour party activism, philanthropy and support for pro-peace groups such as Yachad (compare e.g. this JC article[237]), i.e. no actual lie but would be dangerous to use this as a soure for factual claim about Starmer's funding or Trevor Chinn; and (m) the piece about the "£1 million plot" which I've shown has an actually false headline and lede. In addition, I've given an example below from an academic joural article[238] which describes a misleading report in the Canary about the extent of antisemitism, which the academic summarises as a denial of anti-Jewish racism, suggesting that if their article was used as a source on antisemitism our content would be misleading.
- You also ask about state-sponsored propaganda. The examples I gave of that were (c) where they republished (from a deprecated source) articles that were part of a state-sponsored disinformation campaign against a journalist in Nicaragua;[239] (i) the publication of Russian-sponsored stories about the Salisbury attack, claiming various perpetatrators other than Russia (this[240] is one example, which claims to "unravel" the "Russian spy story" (i.e. the version we now know is true), citing as its authority conspiracy theorist Annie Machon on the Kremlin's RT.com platform), which were never retracted now this is beyond doubt; and (l) the several articles they published showing Seth Rich was the source of the DNC hack, which are all based on false reports that had already then been revealed to come from the Kremlin[241] to obscure the fact that Russia had done the hacking - see our article Murder of Seth Rich. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:18, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- You give two examples of supposed anti-Semitism. The first is pointing out that a pro-Israeli donor have money to Starmer. It's not anti-Semitic to point this out, and the Canary's claim was true, as far as I can see. The second example you give is of the "1 million pound plot". The Al Jazeera documentary showed that the Israeli government had set aside 1 million pounds in funding for a project to influence the Labour party. It's clear from the documentary that a major goal of this operation was undermining Corbyn (which isn't surprising, given his history of supporting the Palestinian movement) and others who were perceived as hostile to Israel. You're objecting that not necessarily all of the money went directly to trying to remove Corbyn, but that's really a matter of interpretation. And reporting on this is not, in itself, in any way anti-Semitic.
- Your other accusations are guilt by association. The Canary expressed skepticism about the British government's claims about the Salisbury poisoning, at a time when the UK government had not released convincing evidence. The Russian government also disputed the claims. Ergo The Canary = Russian propaganda? By this logic, news outlets that expressed skepticism about the US' WMD claims were Iraqi propaganda. -Thucydides411 (talk) 14:46, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- You haven't actually shown that The Canary has published any anti-Semitic conspiracy theories or state-sponsored propaganda. Just take your last example: you're saying that The Canary's discussion of the pro-Israel lobby in the Labour Party plays into anti-Semitic tropes. How is a news organization supposed to discuss this issue? I don't see raising this issue in itself as anti-Semitic, and any such accusations should be well grounded. -Thucydides411 (talk) 14:10, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- I am not arguing that The Canary routinely produces "fake news" (if it did I would suggest we'd need to go swiftly to deprecation) but that it is generally unreliable for factual reporting, as their reports include falseshoods, misleadingly selective presentation of facts, and state-sponsored propoganda, and that its journalistic team has no track record in decent journalism but on the contrary has a track record of publication in deprecated sources, antisemitic conspiracy theories and writing for state-sponsored fake news publications. I'll look at the Salisbury issue and return on that. BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:12, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Having looked through those, I don't see a great deal beyond what you would expect of any newspaper like the Times or the Guardian. The only actual factual problems are that of the £1 million donation which was part of a campaign whose instigators discussed "taking down" anti-Israel MPs. It's off, but you see worse on the BBC. The fact that £50k was given to Starmer's campaign by a pro-Israel lobbyist is entirely factual and relevant. The criticism of its clickbaity headlines is justified, especially in the past, but it does not falsify its factual reporting. This is less of a problem now since its change of business model following the boycott campaign led by that weird astroturf organisation. Boynamedsue (talk) 18:44, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- I am dithering between option 1 and option 2. I don't see it as any more or less biased than The Times or The Guardian which are generally RS. My only problem is that people might misuse it because there is quite a lot of opinion mixed into factual stories, so if we decide it's kosher people might start using it to try and quote the parts that are clearly meant as opinion as if they were fact. That also happens with those other papers, but ironically, as they are slyer about it, it is more difficult to identify. Boynamedsue (talk) 17:55, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- The fact mixed with opinion thing was also mentioned for Jacobin, whether one should consider that type of reporting a bug or a feature is unclear but it is definitely a trend. WP editors ought to be able to differentiate between one and the other, I would have thought.Selfstudier (talk) 19:11, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 1 in general, as per the above votes. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:17, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3 for problematic areas, as shown above. I wonder consider the problematic areas attacks on individuals, specifically relating to accusations of racism, and also their claims on their reliability of other organisations. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:19, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 5 for the satire section. This should absolutely not be used in anyway, but I oppose this "deprecation" (or as it sometimes misspelt depreciation) system.
- Option 2 Not unreliable enough for deprecation, but too biased to be "Generally reliable". As with many news sources, we have to determine how reliable they are in each specific case. For one thing, their overly critical stance on Israel may disqualify them as a source in any news item relating to this state. Dimadick (talk) 01:38, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3 Bias is not really an issue. The issue is that they regularly report fake or highly misleading news as shown above. Dr. Swag Lord (talk) 05:20, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- There haven't been any examples of fake news given above. The examples being given of "misleading" reporting are extremely flimsy - for example, a story claiming that someone spoke at a Conservative Party conference, when they actually spoke at a fringe event to the conference (The Canary corrected the story, and this is the sort of minor error that all news organizations make). -Thucydides411 (talk) 09:27, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Thucydides, I gave 13 examples above of unreliability in factual reporting. They're all "extremely flimsy"? BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:03, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- I think yes. If we used similar standards of evidence, I feel that even longer lists of examples of unreliability could be provided for sources we regard as reliable.Boynamedsue (talk) 12:03, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- The problem is that your list of examples includes lots of minor things like failing to distinguish between a conference and a fringe event associated with the conference (The Canary corrected this minor mistake), as well as issues that have nothing to do with factual accuracy. I've asked you to reduce your list to the examples that you believe actually represent serious factual errors (i.e., trim out things like the Kuenssberg story and the usual political attacks from right-wing Labour outlets that don't like pro-Corbyn outlets). -Thucydides411 (talk) 13:49, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Thucydides, I gave 13 examples above of unreliability in factual reporting. They're all "extremely flimsy"? BobFromBrockley (talk) 10:03, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- There haven't been any examples of fake news given above. The examples being given of "misleading" reporting are extremely flimsy - for example, a story claiming that someone spoke at a Conservative Party conference, when they actually spoke at a fringe event to the conference (The Canary corrected the story, and this is the sort of minor error that all news organizations make). -Thucydides411 (talk) 09:27, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 2, as I don't think that the evidence presented here amounts to a blanket ruling of Option 3 for all their content. However, it should always be attributed (as it is clearly a biased source), and when it comes to Israel and Jewish-related subjects (broadly construed), Option 3 likely applies. Obviously, anything from their "Off the Perch" section is clearly meant to be regarded as satire. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 05:54, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Comment: I'm having a look at Google scholar to see what academics say about The Canary. It's difficult, because "the canary" is not a very easy search term so needs to be combined with other terms such as "media" and still takes time to find the references. I'm adding some of these to our article on the website. Here are the first few I've found:
- General reputation for hyper-partisan reporting and sensationalism:
- Leeds University political scientist Jonathan Dean wrote in the peer-reviewed Sage journal Politics in 2020 that "websites such as Evolve Politics, Skwawkbox and The Canary have aped a more tabloid style, with short, punchy headlines and an often rather sensationalised style of reporting. The Canary, in particular, has faced criticism for its highly partisan presentation of political news stories, with critics often deeming it symptomatic of the rise of so-called ‘fake news’".[242]
- Three UK media studies scholars from three different universities in 2018 in New Media and Society: "In the fallout from the 2017 UK general election there was much discussion about the growth of sensationalism in online political news as a result of the popularity of new, ideologically-slanted news sites such as, for example, Breitbart UK and Westmonster on the right and the Canary and Evolvepolitics on the left."[243][244]
- A 2018 Routledge book on new media and journalism by two journalism lecturers: "If there was a British equivalent of Breitbart it would be The Canary... It is a simplification to say hyperpartisan news is automatically fake news. What unites these sites is a commitment to report stories that they believe that mainstream media ignores. In this respect, they see a role of expanding media plurality and provide a platform for alternative voices. Kerry-Anne Mendoza, Canary editor, states the site's aims: 'Today, a handful of powerful moguls control our mainstream media. As such, its coverage is largely conservative. But we have created a truly independent and viable alternative. One that isn t afraid to challenge the status quo, to ask the hard questions, and to have an opinion.' (Canary n.d.) Their skilled use of social media optimisation when promoting stories on social media has meant their stories are often widely shared. In some respects they share the traditions of journalism, e.g. they usually seek to break exclusive stories and expand the public debate. But with a strong commitment to a particular political cause their reporting is by definition one sided."[245] (chapter 3)
- Specific examples of misleading reporting:
- Leicester Uni (and now Kings College London) scholar on digital media Daniel Allington, in the specialist Elsevier journal Discourse, Context & Media in 2018 gives an example of misleading reporting: "both the pro-Corbyn online tabloid The Canary and the website of the Israel-critical organisation, Jews for Justice for Palestinians, presented the research positively but reported it selectively in order to create the false impression that the finding was that only those on the political right were likely to be a problem for British Jews (see JFJFP, 2017, Micner, 2017). This was in effect a denial of racism."[246]
- Labour Party scholar Tim Bale, professor of politics at Queen Mary University, wrote about the Portland Comms conspiracy theory: "McCluskey suggested that these sinister forces could be linked to the public relations firm Portland Communications – an organisation which he claimed had clear links with Tony Blair and the Labour right. This conspiracy theory was largely drawn from an article published on the pro-Corbyn website The Canary that (falsely, as it turned out) argued that the firm had been directly behind the attempted coup (see Topple, 2016). "[247] BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:44, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- General reputation for hyper-partisan reporting and sensationalism:
- The denial of racism is the same one you already mentioned in your previous comment, personally I'm having a hard time interpreting the reporting as a denial of racism, selective reporting, sure but not exactly a denial of racism. The other "This conspiracy theory was largely drawn from an (Canary) article" is not the same as saying that Canary did it. I know you are not fond of the Canary but I think there is a lot of mountain from molehill here.Selfstudier (talk) 16:28, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- I find Bobfrombrockley's analysis highly persuasive and more evidence-based than many of the comments here. If academic sources are describing The Canary as "tabloid style" and like Breitbart, then we should respect that and clearly cannot consider it a reliable source. Bondegezou (talk) 19:24, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 1 I think editors are in danger of holding The Canary to too high a standard, simply because of its strong political position. In practice, the mainstream press also have clear party political preferences and these are evident in headlines, in the stories they select and in how they report them. What is more important is actual misleading stories. The Canary have been the target for few, if any, lawsuits or regulatory rulings, despite the hostility to them of e.g. SFFN, whereas the Jewish Chronicle, for example, regularly loses lawsuits and is the subject of regular adverse regulatory rulings on the grounds of inaccuracy. 17:12, 18 February 2021 (UTC) Jontel (talk) 15:48, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 1 The Canary has made mistakes like all media organisations and acts responsibly when errors are discovered. My comment from last time on some of the examples that were presented and have resurfaced this time: "I went through all the Canary articles that have been mentioned by editors in the discussion. I found three articles where an identified error had been made by The Canary. They were the Laura K and fracking stories that went to IMPRESS and the story that was described as "it took 3 years to update a fake story about ISIS". The Canary acknowledged the error in the first 2 cases and took appropriate action. It appears that The Canary itself identified the third error and made the correction which related to The Canary's description of a pilgrimage as a march. The other stories involve innuendo, opinion, guilt by association and other diversions that don't impact on reliability. The story titled "The Canary Deleted A False Viral Story About The Sun's Coverage Of The Manchester Attack" was discussed by Press Gazette which stated: "The Canary story remains live on its website with an update at the foot of the article that reads: "The Sun contacted The Canary to request that we update the piece to reflect that The Sun went to print prior to the concert bombing. The paper issued an updated front page subsequently. We’re happy to do so" ". Burrobert (talk) 15:10, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 1 The errors shown above all appear to be good-faith mistakes that any source of timely news is likely to run into, and The Canary has also shown that it is more than willing to voluntarily, promptly, and prominently correct these good-faith mistakes. That's how a news source is supposed to work. --Jayron32 16:03, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 1 Nothing I've seen here shows it any more biased or unreliable than most other sources considered RS. The objections I've seen seem to be based on an objection to its political stances rather than any firm proof that it is a source which is not journalistically methodical or deliberately sets out to mislead. The few errors and mistakes it makes here and there are within the usual margins of error. It is however beneficial to Wikipedia to have sources presenting a wide array of viewpoints. G-13114 (talk) 17:45, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 3 The Canary is generally unreliable. There are plenty of cases that support this as well as the fact that "Stop Funding Fake News" (SFFN), part of the organisation Center for Countering Digital Hate, whose head, Imran Ahmed sits on the steering committee of the Commission for Countering Extremism (source: here) has repeatedly referred to the Canary as a purveyor of, among other things, fake news. In addition, I don't find the suggestions by some editors in this chat (and previously) that because it's a regulated publication by IMPRESS or has passed Newsguard assessments, it therefore can't possibly be unreliable; such a position is silly in my opinion. It was during the Canary's of membership of IMPRESS that it broke the rules. As well as this it was during this time that it made the claims about "political Zionists", which is not a statement we would consider reliable as a matter of course. In relation to Newsguard, some people may be interested to know that the Guido Fawkes blog, an organisation deemed to be unreliable by many of those in favour of the Canary's recategorisation, has a better reputation than the Canary within that particular service. This issue has nothing to do with whether or not the Canary holds a "strong political position", but whether the editorial staff can separate their political affiliations from the reporting of the facts. It seems quite strange that an editor above believes that we're "holding The Canary to too high a standard" when they are recommending that we blanket an organisation like the Canary (with its 'particular record) as generally reliable. Alssa1 (talk) 18:47, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- It's hardly a surprise that an anti-establishment left-wing publication would attract the ire of the establishment. There's undoubtedly a political agenda to try and tarnish the reputation of independent outlets like the Canary. The fact that the "Commission for Countering Extremism" focuses on outlets like The Canary but not say the Daily Mail, which has a long history of supporting bigoted causes and inaccurate reporting, should tell you all you need to know about it. I'm sure we're capable of coming to our own conclusions on the evidence, rather than follow the opinions of organisations with an obvious political agenda. G-13114 (talk) 19:32, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- The Stop Funding Fake News organisation is not a neutral actor, it is a highly politicised campaign group holding a centrist political position, with opaque funding sources and links to the Labour right.Boynamedsue (talk) 19:35, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- It's hardly a surprise that an anti-establishment left-wing publication would attract the ire of the establishment. There's undoubtedly a political agenda to try and tarnish the reputation of independent outlets like the Canary. The fact that the "Commission for Countering Extremism" focuses on outlets like The Canary but not say the Daily Mail, which has a long history of supporting bigoted causes and inaccurate reporting, should tell you all you need to know about it. I'm sure we're capable of coming to our own conclusions on the evidence, rather than follow the opinions of organisations with an obvious political agenda. G-13114 (talk) 19:32, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 4. Far-left website that generates thousands of low-quality clickbait pieces. When Facebook and Google changed their alogirthms to filter this clickbait, The Canary described this as an overarching Zionist conspiracy: The Canary blames attacks by 'political Zionists' for failing business model as cuts fall, Press Gazette. 11Fox11 (talk) 08:17, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- Rachel Riley and Tracy-Ann Oberman were involved; how would you describe them? Jontel (talk) 15:45, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- To be fair, that's a big misrepresentation of what they said. They in fact blamed a campaign by their opponents targeting advertisers with dubious claims of fake news for falling revenues, which was correct. And it's fair to say that many of their opponents could be described as Zionists (in the correct sense) who oppose their critical stance towards the Israeli government. G-13114 (talk) 16:34, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- Labeling Rachel Riley and Tracy-Ann Oberman, media personalities who have spoken out against widely recognized antisemitism, as "Zionists" is 50 shades of wrong. For The Canary, everything is the result of some "Zionist conspiracy". 11Fox11 (talk) 20:16, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- To be fair, that's a big misrepresentation of what they said. They in fact blamed a campaign by their opponents targeting advertisers with dubious claims of fake news for falling revenues, which was correct. And it's fair to say that many of their opponents could be described as Zionists (in the correct sense) who oppose their critical stance towards the Israeli government. G-13114 (talk) 16:34, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- Rachel Riley and Tracy-Ann Oberman were involved; how would you describe them? Jontel (talk) 15:45, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- Option 4 or 3 - I've nothing to add to the arguments already thoroughly set out. TrabiMechanic (talk) 19:24, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
Are opinion pieces, blogs reliable sources for factual information?
Some editors are claiming so at Talk:Welsh fiscal deficit. They also try to cite sources that don't mention Wales or deficits. (t · c) buidhe 10:14, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- At a glance it looks very like a political argument rather than a sourcing argument - David Gerard (talk) 10:18, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- The factual accuracy of opinion pieces can vary... and a lot depends on the specific author giving the opinion. That said, information taken from opinion pieces should always be presented with in-text attribution, and not as unattributed fact in WPs voice. It is never wrong to tell the reader who says what. Blueboar (talk) 12:55, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
MDPI journals
David Gerard (actually Tgeorgescu) has created an entry on the Perennial Sources list for MDPI, an open access publishing company, as "generally unreliable" (see Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources#MDPI, stating that "There is consensus that journals published by MDPI are generally unreliable, since MDPI has a very shallow peer-review process". I disagree with this assessment and think that journals published by MDPI should be evaluated on a case by case basis. MDPI was placed on the infamous Beall's list of predatory access publishers in 2014, but was subsequently removed from the list in 2015 following an appeal. This post on Scholarly Kitchen from August 2020 gives a positive assessment of MDPI's operations, describing it as "simply a company that has focused on growth and speed while optimizing business practices around the author-pays APC (article processing charge) business model" rather than a predatory publisher. MDPI is now the world's 5th largest publishing company and largest open access publisher, and it has improved significantly in citation rankings and reputation since the mid 2010's when most of the cited discussions on the reliability of MDPI took place. Hemiauchenia (talk) 13:04, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- I didn't create it, I just tidied up an entry someone else had added. I think it's superfluous on RSP, it's already on WP:CITEWATCH, where it most certainly belongs - the "appeal" was legal threats - David Gerard (talk) 13:10, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Source on legal threats? Hemiauchenia (talk) 13:12, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Pinging @Tgeorgescu: The actual creator of the entry. Hemiauchenia (talk) 13:13, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- I've marked the entry for MDPI (RSP entry) as disputed, pending the result of this discussion, as it is a new entry. — Newslinger talk 13:26, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Generally unreliable is too harsh. It should be yellow with "additional considerations" and the like. Same for Frontiers Media journals. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 15:06, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Outside of Wikipedia, in my life as a physicist, I tend to treat articles in MDPI journals as a notch more vetted than preprints on the arXiv. I've seen some jank in their journals, but I've also found very reputable people publishing there; John C. Baez comes to mind [248]. I suspect that they may be "journals of last resort", places where people send work that is legitimate but without the oomph needed to get into journals that are more established. (Maybe a paper ends up there because it was bounced from Physical Review A, or maybe the authors figured they didn't have much of a shot at PRA in the first place.) For example, Gill (2020) is a paper that pushes back on nonsense, upholding a mainstream view rather than promoting a fringe one. But the nonsense being debunked is not very high-profile, so plenty of journals wouldn't find a debunking interesting enough to publish. So, yes, "generally unreliable" is too harsh; generally unremarkable may be closer to the truth. But I wouldn't put them in the green either. XOR'easter (talk) 16:17, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- I reckon that this is strongly field dependent. In Palaeontology, where the difference between the highest and lowest ranking journals is relatively low, MDPI journals don't stick out as any worse than say, PeerJ or Scientific Reports. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:28, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, they probably have to be judged field-by-field, if not journal-by-journal. XOR'easter (talk) 17:59, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
- I reckon that this is strongly field dependent. In Palaeontology, where the difference between the highest and lowest ranking journals is relatively low, MDPI journals don't stick out as any worse than say, PeerJ or Scientific Reports. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:28, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Outside of Wikipedia, in my life as a physicist, I tend to treat articles in MDPI journals as a notch more vetted than preprints on the arXiv. I've seen some jank in their journals, but I've also found very reputable people publishing there; John C. Baez comes to mind [248]. I suspect that they may be "journals of last resort", places where people send work that is legitimate but without the oomph needed to get into journals that are more established. (Maybe a paper ends up there because it was bounced from Physical Review A, or maybe the authors figured they didn't have much of a shot at PRA in the first place.) For example, Gill (2020) is a paper that pushes back on nonsense, upholding a mainstream view rather than promoting a fringe one. But the nonsense being debunked is not very high-profile, so plenty of journals wouldn't find a debunking interesting enough to publish. So, yes, "generally unreliable" is too harsh; generally unremarkable may be closer to the truth. But I wouldn't put them in the green either. XOR'easter (talk) 16:17, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Generally unreliable is too harsh. It should be yellow with "additional considerations" and the like. Same for Frontiers Media journals. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 15:06, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- It definitely should be on a case by case basis. There are definitely journals MDPI publishes that are on the predatory end and should not be trusted. At the same time, there are a number of journals they publish that appear to have proper peer review and other systems in place for promoting proper research. Trying to deprecate everything MDPI is involved in would be...a lot of the scientific publishing world. And would negatively impact thousands of articles. SilverserenC 20:13, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, I added the entry. Of course consensus may change, however past RSN discussion did not give me much confidence about MDPI. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:40, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
This thread was archived but @Alexbrn: is edit warring with me when I try to correct the entry, including when I try to add the archiving tag. I don't see how the previous discussions and this one justify the claim that MDPI is generally unreliable for everything it publishes. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:36, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- Changing the entry (twice) only to say "There is consensus that journals published by MDPI should be considered on a case by case basis", especially after such a brief discussion, is not a true reflection of views on this matter. I shall ping WT:MED to widen consensus, as not everybody watches this NB. Alexbrn (talk) 18:47, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- I didn't revert the exact same entry twice, I added the Beall's list mention from the first entry the second time. I agree that my entry on both times was short and not ideal. The first entry is problematic, however, as it makes claims such as that MDPI journals "have a shallow peer review process" and were removed from Beall's list as a result of legal action that as far as I am aware are not backed up by discussions, so I don't think the first entry is a true reflection of MDPI either, it's much more negative that the corresponding WP:CITEWATCH entry. As I have previously stated, I don't have a high opinion of MDPI journals. Like Frontiers, they are generally bottom of the barrell and many of their journals publish fringey stuff. This is probably more important in medical topic areas, and I can understand your opinion on MDPI from that perspective. Hemiauchenia (talk) 18:56, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- I agree that it should be case by case, but it should be made clear that "most MDPI journals are considered generally unreliable due to lacking quality of peer review processes. Furthermore, some MDPI journals are considered predatory and these should not be used. Other (generally larger) MDPI journals should be discussed on a case by case basis." - It should not be listed as yellow nor should it be listed as "case by case basis" without further information such as that many are predatory and lack peer review. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 19:05, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- I agree with @Headbomb, and I don't think that a low-quality peer-review process is actually sufficient to meet the WP:GUNREL standards. This is the list of GUNREL criteria:
- lack an editorial team – They have one, with their names and affiliations published in each journal.
- have a poor reputation for fact-checking – Outside the category of "glossy magazines", almost nobody does actual fact checking, but they obviously do have a peer-review process (which Wikipedia counts as a form of fact-checking), because people are complaining that their peer-review process isn't slow enough. (I guess that long delays, during which the reviewers refuse to look at the paper, are a marker of a high-quality review in some people's eyes?)
- fail to correct errors – They retract papers,[249] which is the most stringent form of error correction.
- be self-published – Since people are complaining about the publisher, then this obviously doesn't apply.
- present user-generated content – Obviously not.
- So none of the GUNREL criteria indisputably apply to this publisher. Nor would we, if we sat down and considered it, say that absolutely none of the articles in any of the publisher's journals should ever be cited for anything unless the editor was willing to invoke WP:IAR as the reason. (That, too, is the standard for a GUNREL finding.)
- I think that the facts indicate that "MREL" is the correct classification. Maybe what we need is "There is consensus that journals published by MDPI should be considered on a case by case basis" with a recommendation to look at CITEWATCH. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:40, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
- I agree with @Headbomb, and I don't think that a low-quality peer-review process is actually sufficient to meet the WP:GUNREL standards. This is the list of GUNREL criteria:
- There are probably several other publishers in the same class. JMIR Publications comes to mind.[1] My main interest is on behalf of Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine. In this case, we have a strong interest in not promoting bad health advice. So for purposes of WP:MED, we should generally avoid citing pay-to-publish articles whenever possible. An exception is where we cite in the same paragraph/context a very highly reliable (ideally secondary) source. This may allow us to put the new citation into context. For example, the article on Dengue fever discusses the use of papaya extract as a treatment. This is based on some relatively unreliable sources. No reliable sources mention papaya extract, other than by exclusion from lists of known treatment. So this is an example where unreliable references are not paired with reliable references and should be treated with extreme caution. However, a counterpoint is that increasingly very reliable journals are embracing a pay-to-publish model. So we definitely cannot classify all pay-to-publish articles as unreliable. At least for WP:MED I would classify MDPI Journals as Wikipedia:GUNREL, which includes the following description, "The source may still be used for uncontroversial self-descriptions, and self-published or user-generated content authored by established subject-matter experts is also acceptable." WP:GUNREL still allows one to use the citation on a case-by-case basis. Jaredroach (talk) 03:32, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Why not have the medical project come up with a list of journals that the project likes and doesn't like, and then use those in your project. Other science projects most probably prefer having their own criteria. I know MDPI's journal Viruses and those articles are just fine. MDPI is one of the three big open access publishers. Using the category open access/pay-for-publishing as a de-qualifier is a fool's errand. Pay-for-publishing is now mandatory in Europe, and this will be the business model throughout the scientific world in 5 years. That is why I have been mentioning Plan S. I would recommend using Impact Factor/(your preferred journal metric) and whether it is indexed in pubmed to determine whether to use it. ---Guest2625 (talk) 16:13, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- What is wrong with JMIR publications, Jaredroach? I publish regularly in JMIR journals. They have robust peer review and are highly respected in their relevant fields. These are open access journals. Open access journals use article processing fees. They are not "pay-to-publish": papers have to be accepted in the same way as for other journals. Open access is very much the future of academic publishing, not something to be suspicious of. There are predatory journals that we need to avoid and I don't have any specific view on MDPI, but don't tar all open access journals like this. Bondegezou (talk) 19:35, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Predatory does not necessarily means that a journal is an unreliable reference. For example, JMIR is definitely predatory, but may have articles that are reliable. JMIR aggressively spam emails all authors of MedRxiv with bait-and-switch efforts to increase revenue. Definitely predatory. YMMV with respect to reliability. JMIR Preprints in particular is full of unreliable material. Jaredroach (talk) 20:15, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Indeed, but Wikipedia sources need to be well-reputed. The WP:DAILYMAIL runs an occasional good story, but because of its deficiencies in other areas it is not a suitable source generally. Same for predatory publishers.
- Re:"Predatory does not necessarily means that a journal is an unreliable reference." Predatory means exactly that. It doesn't mean all articles in predatory journals are inaccurate/wrong (broken clocks are right twice a day after all) but all such articles cannot be relied upon, unless vetted explicitly by reliable external sources deeming them reliable. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:39, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- See also WP:VANPRED#Use in the real world vs use on Wikipedia Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:41, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- I see no evidence that JMIR journals are unreliable. Publications in JMIR journals are routinely cited by articles in other high quality journals and have good impact factors. As I said, I publish regularly in JMIR journals: I was recently promoted to professor on the back of a publication track record including papers in JMIR journals. The promotion committee were all happy with that.
- JMIR Preprints is for preprints: they haven't been through peer review. That's what a preprint is. No, a preprint is not a reliable source. I have preprints at present with JMIR and with medRxiv. It's COVID research, so some of them have already been cited or received media coverage, but fellow scholars know to only cite a preprint with caution and Wikipedia should definitely be avoiding them. Bondegezou (talk) 09:06, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- See also WP:VANPRED#Use in the real world vs use on Wikipedia Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:41, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Re:"Predatory does not necessarily means that a journal is an unreliable reference." Predatory means exactly that. It doesn't mean all articles in predatory journals are inaccurate/wrong (broken clocks are right twice a day after all) but all such articles cannot be relied upon, unless vetted explicitly by reliable external sources deeming them reliable. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:39, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Indeed, but Wikipedia sources need to be well-reputed. The WP:DAILYMAIL runs an occasional good story, but because of its deficiencies in other areas it is not a suitable source generally. Same for predatory publishers.
- Predatory does not necessarily means that a journal is an unreliable reference. For example, JMIR is definitely predatory, but may have articles that are reliable. JMIR aggressively spam emails all authors of MedRxiv with bait-and-switch efforts to increase revenue. Definitely predatory. YMMV with respect to reliability. JMIR Preprints in particular is full of unreliable material. Jaredroach (talk) 20:15, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
References
- ^ "JMIR Publications". jmirpublications.com. Retrieved 2021-02-18.
Alison Weir
A new editor Thequeenofaragon expanded the article about Aimery of Cyprus with information about the first marriage of Aimery's eldest daughter, Burgundia/Bourgogne with Raymond VI, Count of Toulouse ([250]). The edit was verified with a reference to a book written by Alison Weir (Weir, Alison (2020). Queens of the crusades : Eleanor of Aquitaine and her successors. London. ISBN 978-1-910702-09-3. OCLC 1197774310.). I am not sure that the book meets the criteria of reliable sources, because she is not a historian and I doubt that her book was peer reviewed. I emphasize the information about the marriage may be correct, but I think it should be verified by a reliable source. Thank you for your comments. Borsoka (talk) 03:57, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
Reliable: Weir is not an academic. She is a popular historian who specialises in the area of English medieval/early modern nobility, largely using secondary sources. She does this with sufficient accuracy to be accepted by Wikipedia as WP:RS as supporting dates, births, deaths and, important for this question marrages. It wouldn't make sense to use her analysis but she is certainly good enough for those details. Norfolkbigfish (talk) 07:57, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Is she regularly cited in peer reviewed sources? Could you refer to a review of her works in academic journals? Borsoka (talk) 11:49, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Borsoka, I think you are being a bit too harsh. While we certainly prefer academic authors who are cited and published in peer reviewed journals, we do not reject amateur historians with good reputations. My understanding is that Weir has a reasonably good reputation. I think we can cite her. Blueboar (talk) 20:07, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- Is she regularly cited in peer reviewed sources? Could you refer to a review of her works in academic journals? Borsoka (talk) 11:49, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
Comment I noticed they've also added the same source to Raymond_VI,_Count_of_Toulouse. Although it hasn't gotten to the point of concern, if a pattern of the same author getting added into numerous article develops, WP:REFSPAM is something to be on the look out for. See Talk:Rarotonga for example. Graywalls (talk) 16:41, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
Microskiff
Hello, I would like input on whether these sources would help to warrant an article on the topic. Microskiffs are a relatively new class of small boats designed for extreme shallow water fishing, primarily in saltwater. This is a boat class that is accepted within the flats_fishing and saltwater fishing community for areas where microskiffs make sense due to extreme shallow water flats that anglers need to pass through (eg: Florida, Texas, South Carolina). I'd like to create an article on it, but there is no mainstream media attention to this topic - it exists in the fishing world which does not have a WP:RS huge presence online. Sources:[1][2][3][4] DrGvago (talk) 22:00, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
References
- ^ "Five Super-Light Microskiff Fishing Machines". Sport Fishing Magazine. Retrieved 2021-02-18.
- ^ Magazine, Editorial Staff Fishing; Angler, Coastal; fishing, The Angler Magazine is your leading source for freshwater; Videos, Saltwater Fishing; Photos, Fishing; Fishing, Saltwater (2015-04-02). "Consider A Microskiff For SW Florida Shallows". Coastal Angler & The Angler Magazine. Retrieved 2021-02-18.
- ^ Roberts, Brenton (2018-07-10). "Upsize Your Skiff". Florida Sportsman. Retrieved 2021-02-18.
- ^ "Six Great Boats Under $20,000". Boating Magazine. Retrieved 2021-02-18.
Comment The topic certainly appears to be notable to me. A Google search shows it coming up in large numbers, and if people are becoming interested in a topic like this, then it makes sense for us to begin developing an article on it. I see no problem with using magazines as reliable sources for the purposes of establishing notability, as they seem to demonstrate that the subject is indeed notable. I'd say, go for it! A loose necktie (talk) 05:14, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
Palestinian enclaves and sourcing for an alternate name
There is a dispute at Talk:Palestinian enclaves as to whether or not these sources are a. reliable and b. support that the term "bantustan" is a widely used name to describe the "enclaves". The sources are as follows:
- Jerome Slater (2020). Mythologies Without End: The US, Israel, and the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 1917-2020. Oxford University Press. p. 256. ISBN 978-0-19-045908-6.
each segment of the "state" would be further subdivided into enclaves ("Bantustans", as they have been widely called) by the Israeli settlements, highways and military positions.
- Yambert, Karl (2012). The Contemporary Middle East: A Westview Reader. Taylor & Francis. ISBN 978-0-429-97253-9.
Palestinians noted that Israel's proposal for the West Bank left Palestinians with three unconnected cantons (often referred to pejoratively as "Bantustans"
- Harker, Christopher (2020). Spacing Debt: Obligations, Violence, and Endurance in Ramallah, Palestine. Duke University Press. ISBN 978-1-4780-1247-4.
This checkpoint system enabled Israel to severely curtail Palestinians' freedom of movement within the Occupied Territories, particularly during the second intifida. Oslo thus transformed Palestinian cities into enclaves, which are often referred to as Bantustans to invoke explicit comparison with the Apartheid geography of South Africa
- Penny Green; Amelia Smith (2016). "Evicting Palestine". State Crime Journal. 5 (1): 81–108.
what are popularly described as “Bantustans”, those Palestinian villages fragmented, encircled and isolated from the West Bank by the wall and its checkpoints
An editor has said that these sources do not pass the smell test and that the authors are partisans and the sources do not support that the term bantustan is widely used by anybody besides critics of Israel. In support of that argument, the editor has brought this NYT article which says But relegating the Palestinians to self-government in confined areas — places Israeli critics have likened to “bantustans” to support the contention that this is a term only used by critics of Israel. Are the three sources above reliable, and do they support the statement that the term bantustan is widely used without the qualification by critics of Israel? nableezy - 22:41, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
- State Crime Journal seems obscure, and from a self-describe progressive or socialist publisher (Pluto Press), perhaps not academic. I don't think anyone is questioning the reliability of university presses or Routledge. Part (B) of the OP is a content dispute about NPOV not a dispute about RS. Levivich harass/hound 00:53, 19 February 2021 (UTC) Levivich harass/hound 00:53, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- It's peer reviewed journal. And yes, an editor has said these sources do not support the notion that "bantustan" is a widely used phrasing to describe the "enclaves", that the authors' supposed bias leads them incapable of supporting what they report, so I'm asking here if they are reliable and if they support that. nableezy - 01:30, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- Seems to me like WP:POV issue. The proper place is WP:NPOVN --Shrike (talk) 09:00, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- Well a user said these sources dont pass the smell test and that nothing has been brought that backs the statement the term is widely used by anybody besides critics of Israel. Do you agree they are reliable and that they support the challenged statement? nableezy - 16:15, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- Comment Re the question here "Are the three sources above reliable, and do they support the statement that the term bantustan is widely used without the qualification by critics of Israel?". Yes and yes. Onceinawhile (talk) 13:11, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- Comment Are we really going to question the reliability of multiple scholarship? These are not opinion pieces or something of that kind. The first says "widely called", the second "often referred to" the third "often referred to" and the 'progressive socialist'(?) says "popularly described as". I could see how we might say that a particular source has a bias so severe that it ought to be discounted but trying to paint every source as biased because of disagreement with what the sources say is taking things too far.Selfstudier (talk) 14:53, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- Comment on the narrow question of if the sources are reliable and if the sources confirm the term "bantustan" is in common use, true on both counts. On the wider question, it seems like a variant of the "no true Scotsman" argument is being used; the objection seems to be that any source that uses the term "bantustan" must be invalid because the term is critical of Israel itself, so by that circular logic, it could never be sourced to any source because any source using the term invalidates itself as a source that the term is used. My brain can't wrap itself around such a catch-22. These sources are sufficient to state that the term is in common use. Whether or not the use is justified or not, and whether or not the use of the term represents a criticism of Israel merely by its use is a discussion to be had on another day, but on the narrow question of whether or not the term is used, yes, the sources are sufficient for that purpose. --Jayron32 15:22, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- Comment This was taken to RSN on a strawman premise, i.e. one that was never asserted. These sources are not by default unreliable. However, they are inadequate to support the statement that "Palestinian bantustans" is a "widely used" term beyond critics. Why are these sources inadequate to do so? Because these sources represent the view of participants in that debate, specifically, they are critics of the proposed enclaves who support usage the term bantustans.
- Jerome Slater is a notable critic of Israel and this is manifested in the positions he takes in his writings, including on the Bantustan issue. See his writings here. He criticizes the U.S.-Israeli relationship and solely blames Israel for the series of wars that have broken out in the region as well as the failure of the peace process.
- Christopher Harker is a frequent critic of what he calls "Israeli settler colonialism." See here.
- Penny Green has attracted controversy for her statements on Israel, including comparing Israel to ISIS. See here.
- None of this is to comment on the validity of these criticisms, but to point out that these are participants in a debate who have staked out partisan positions on complex issues, and this must be accounted for before claiming that their views or statements are widespread or representative. The same can be said of partisan advocates on the other side of the debate. But while Nableezy and others in that discussion have raised these issues with say, usage of a source like Alan Dershowitz, a noted advocate for Israel, they wave off these exact same considerations when it comes to sources on the other side. This isn't acceptable. Showing "widespread usage" means showing that it is a term consistently and repeatedly used, and that any common person would recognize, in mainstream and objective sources. The NYT is notable because it is such a source -- mainstream and widespread -- and it explicitly avoids claiming that this term is widespread, and attributes it to critics. The counter to this at the Talk:Palestinian enclaves has been to claim that it is The New York Times that is partisan, not the sources they present, even as their views have attracted controversy and reflect sharply ideological positions. This is not a coherent argument. If Nableezy believes that there is "widespread usage" of this term beyond just critics, they need to present mainstream objective sources consistently using that terminology. So the question is not the narrow "do these sources support this wording?" that this RSN thread presents; the question is, "does the body of sources confirm widespread and consistent usage in mainstream objective sources?" The only mainstream and objective (as much as one can hope for) source that is presented here in the NYT, and its answer is clearly no. You cannot present a limited view of partisan commentators as widespread and remain consistent with WP:NPOV, WP:PARTISAN, and WP:WEASEL. These are usable sources and reliable in some respects, but not for what users are attempting to use them for in this instance. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 22:33, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
To respond to Jayron32's point that any source using the term "Palestinian bantustans" must be critical of Israel and therefore is only of limited value. This is not necessarily true. The applicable policy here is WP:POVNAME. Yes, the term "bantustans" implies a criticism because it suggests a model of racial/ethnic segregation. However, POV names are accepted where objective sources consistently use the phrasing. It is true that there is a slightly higher bar on Wikipedia for loaded phrases, per the policy I just cited. But that is for a good reason. It is so that Wikipedia articles avoid wading into debates and instead default to describing them. The sources presented are not mainstream or objective, and academic not a synonym for either. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 22:38, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
98bowery.com
I've removed bloggy references, as well as a big chunk of in-prose contents at Colab based off of vintage scans of postcards which at one time served as an advertisement listing for the said postcards the site. Upon search, I see the source used in close to 30 articles. The website is ran by an art curator/historian. Should this website be used in the way it was used? Graywalls (talk) 23:29, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
defseca.com
Are any of the following four defseca.com articles reliable sources for the corresponding statements:
- [251] in AeroVironment Wasp III for "Bangladesh Army: RQ-12B on order"?
- [252] in Accuracy International AX50 for the statement that the sniper rifle, "started to be used by Bangladesh Army"?
- [253] in STREIT Group Spartan for the statement that among operators of the armoured personnel carrier is "Border Guards Bangladesh - Ukrainian built KrAZ Spartan variant"?
- [254] in List of equipment in the Myanmar Navy for the statement that their submarine is armed with "24 x DM-1 naval mines"?
Defseca.com hasn't been discussed here before, but bdmilitary.com now redirects to defseca's forum. Bdmilitary.com was discussed here once before. There were few participants, and discussion sidetracked into a debate about whether the source was correct, which is different from whether it is reliable.
My sense is that defseca.com is a self-published enthusiast portal and has zero reputation for accuracy and fact checking (for example, neither it nor bdmilitary.com is widely cited by books or news organizations). I see no evidence of subject matter expertise, journalistic credentials, or editorial oversight.
Pinging participants in previous bdmilitary.com discussion and frequent contributors to Bangladeshi military equipment topics, where defseca.com keeps cropping up: @Thomas.W, Maxx786, Justlettersandnumbers, AzfarShams, FOX 52, Nafis Fuad Ayon, and SRS 00: --Worldbruce (talk) 06:22, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- Nope. "Defseca" is just "bdmilitary" in new clothes: a self-published Wordpress-blog with no information about who they are, how to contact them or who their writers are (none of the articles I checked was signed), and apparently no editorial oversight/control whatsoever. So, no, "defseca" is no more reliable as a source than "bdmilitary" was, and cannot be used as a reference here. - Tom | Thomas.W talk 08:04, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- Nope. Defseca.com is nothing but a new website of bdmilitary.com run by the same person Syed Amar Khan. I personally called the website rumors making machine. In my opinion 7 out of 10 information related to procurement of military equipment are totally wrong and based on nothing but on their imagination. They also mixed true information with false information. They have no respecting in the copyright law. They copied images from other websites and used their own watermark. They are actually selling false information. Some amature YouTube channels also spreading rumors by following the defseca. The website should blocked from wikipedia to used as a reference.
- I'll add the reasons. Which of the following best describes the reliability of Defseca:
- Reason 1: Generally unreliable for procurement reporting. Because they publishes false or fabricated information most of the times.
- Reason 2: Some examples of previously provided false information of both bdmilitary (B) and defseca (D): "Bangladesh ordered LY-80 SAM" (B), "Russia offered TOT of Mig-35 to Bangladesh" (B), "Bangladesh army ordered APCs worth 1 billion dollars" (B), "Bangladesh navy going to buy destroyers" (D), "Bangladesh Navy will buy Helicopter carrier" (D), "Bangladesh navy going to install 8 C-802A missiles on BNS Madhumati" (D) and lots more.
- Reason 3: Generally mixed true information with wrong information. Example: Bangladesh Border Guard (BGB) bought STREIT Group Spartan without the Remote controlled weapon station mounted ATGM. But they reported BGB Spartan APCs have Corsair ATGM installed. Actually these APCs have non rotating turret with heavy machine gun.
- Reason 4: Their editors are not trustworthy. I know Syed Amar Khan and had a long discussion with him in social media. They have a facebook page. After I continuously asking them about reliability of their false information they simply blocked me from the facebook page.
- Reason 5: They make news from imaginary self research. If Bangladesh military issued a tender for weaponry they simply publishes a news immediately before the winner announced. They simply labelled one of the possible candidates as winner. Example: Bangladesh army issued a tender for medium range SAM but winner not announced yet. Defseca published a news that Hisar SAM already selected.
- Reason 6: Most of their true news are copied from other websites like Janes. Example: Procurement of RQ-12B.
- Your answer: Truth of those four references User:Worldbruce: (1) Maybe true, because army is the suitable for operating it. (2) True because the information is based on a image. (3) BGB is the operator, but without the ATGM. (4) Kilo class submarine could carries DM-1 naval mines. So they simply mentioned Myanmar navy submarine armed with "24 x DM-1 naval mines without any proof. But it could be. Nafis Fuad Ayon (talk) 11:00, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- I'll add the reasons. Which of the following best describes the reliability of Defseca:
- No. No opinion on the specific cases as such, but I can't imagine any content for which this could be a reliable source. It's somebody's blog, the registrant of the domain is hidden (registrant is displayed as Domains By Proxy, LLC, Scottsdale, Arizona), it has no editorial oversight, no institutional or personal authority – it's just yet another random website of the kind that Wikipedia should never cite. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 18:34, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- Nope: Just as User:Nafis Fuad Ayon said, defseca.com or The Bangladesh Defense Analyst is rebranded bdmilitary.com which already proved how reliable it is to be cited as sourced to be used as citation. With very few exceptions, most of the news is mixed true or not true at all. The page mainly feels like a Amature Press/Fan site of the Bangladeshi Military, which usually publishes articles like "What type of equipment should the Bangladeshi Military should procure", "Speculation/Conspiracy theories about the geopolitics of Bangladesh" and "Procurement news of the Military forces of Bangladesh and its neighbors". Their writings show signs of immaturity and unprofessionalism. Personally speaking, I contacted some of the editors of that site and I really have doubts about their qualifications. Very few of the procurement news proved to be true even sometimes they exaggerate the information. Their articles sometimes encourage readers to jump to the conclusion by using misleading sentences/words or headline. I want to address the four questions User:Worldbruce bought at this issue.
1. [255] in AeroVironment Wasp III for "Bangladesh Army: RQ-12B on order"?
- Answer: There were 2 citations for that claim. One form defseca and the other one was from Jane's Information Group, in the Jane's report there was no information about which branch of Bangladeshi military were procuring AeroVironment RQ-12B. It only said "Bangladesh".[1] In defseca, they claimed that the Bangladesh army ordered RQ-12B.[2]
2. [256] in Accuracy International AX50 for the statement that the sniper rifle, "started to be used by Bangladesh Army"?
- Answer: Based on photographs, and visual identification. Most photographs were taken during 2017 South Surma Upazila bombings. The source claimed that the Bangladesh army using both AX50 and AX308 which uses .50BMG and 7.62x51mm NATO cartridges respectively. Fundamentally both are different types of firearms as the first one fits the definition of an Anti-materiel rifle and the second one is a Sniper rifle.In November 2018, DGDP issued a tender about buying cartridges specifically for AX308, RPA Rangemaster and Thunderbolt.[3] So it is safe to assume that Bangladesh Army actually operates AX308 but no information about AX50 cannot be found. It is possible that, editors of Defseca.com jumped to a conclusion identifying one variant.
3. [257] in STREIT Group Spartan for the statement that among operators of the armoured personnel carrier is "Border Guards Bangladesh - Ukrainian built KrAZ Spartan variant"?
- Answer: Based on photographs, and visual identification. Most photographs were taken by automotive enthusiasts in Dhaka taken outside of BGB Headquarter. Although there were reports in national news portals of BGB procured riot control vehicles and APCs but didn't mention the name of the vehicle.[4][5] Instead more images of the vehicle were found. All images showed similarity with STREIT Group Spartan, but nothing more than that. Visual . About RK-3 Corsar, defseca.com's clever use of words can make readers think that those ATGMs were attached to those APCs but no such information can be found. Instead, there was only one report in January 2020, by the Irrawaddy that ATGMs being used by BGB stationed at St. Martin's Island identified as "Corsar Anti-Tank Missile System". [6]. I think the question, "Does BGB actually uses such weapons?" deserves a separate discussion.
4. [258] in List of equipment in the Myanmar Navy for the statement that their submarine is armed with "24 x DM-1 naval mines"?
- Answer: Just like User:Nafis Fuad Ayon stated, the Kilo-class submarine has capabilities to be armed with 24 naval mines. Mostly DM-1 as it is mostly used by most countries navy which operates this submarine. The editors of Defseca.com jumped to a conclusion based on that fact.
Now, I want to share some of my opinions. If any new editor cites Defseca.com as a reference, do not remove the entire information just remove the citation and replace with {{Citation needed}} template and told him/her to find a better source. Always remember to, assume good faith and not to bite them. Give him/her the idea of what type of sources Wikipedia accepts and what doesn't. It is understandable why most editors use such types of sources for information especially in military equipment topics. Remove the information if the editor fails to add a reliable citation. If that editor seems to be troublesome, you know the rules. Keep in mind that, new editors sometimes don't understand why what they see are not accepted as true just because he/she saw that. For example, SLC-2 Radar a Counter-battery radar used by Bangladesh Army, which was displayed during the 2017 victory day parade but no reliable source cannot be found to back that claim. It happens in the list of military equipment articles in most third-world countries. Thank You. --AzfarShams (talk) 07:43, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
References
- ^ Gareth Jennings (9 October 2020). "Bangladesh to receive Wasp UASs". Jane's Information Group. Retrieved 9 October 2020.
- ^ "Bangladesh Army obtaining RQ-12B Wasp AE UAS". Desfeca. Retrieved 4 November 2020.
- ^ "Technical Specification and Other Requirements for Cartridge Small Arms 7,62x51 mm Ball Brass Cartridge Case Rimless Ball for 7.62 mm Sniper Rifle" (PDF). dgdp. 1 November 2018. Archived (PDF) from the original on 13 July 2020. Retrieved 11 July 2020.
- ^ "BGB bolstered by inclusion of riot control vehicles and APCs". The Daily Star. Dhaka, Baangladesh. 10 November 2020. Retrieved 20 February 2021.
- ^ "BGB included APC and riot control vehicles". Daily Sun. Dhaka, Baangladesh. 10 November 2020. Retrieved 20 February 2021.
- ^ "Bangladesh Fortifies Island Near Myanmar With Heavy Weapons, Gunboats". Myanmar: The Irrawaddy. 2019-01-02. Retrieved 2020-08-04.
Template for "no reliable sources"?
We have templates for "no sources", and for "some unreliable sources", but we don't seem to have a template for articles where all the sources are unreliable ones (which happens quite regularly on new page patrol). For example, Longest Words in Hebrew is only sourced to Quora and Preply (which is similar to Quora, although the responders have at least some education). Would it be useful to have a new template specifically for this kind of article? Fram (talk) 10:38, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- You could try searching Wikipedia:Template index/Sources of articles for a more apt template. --Jayron32 15:15, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks. For this specific case, Template:user-generated may be appropriate, but a general template like the one I describe doesn't seem to exist (only one for "some unreliable sites", not for "all"). Fram (talk) 15:25, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- Fram, I think might have been more appropriate for the talkpage. The template Template:Unreliable sources has a parameter "some", if you change that to false then the wording of the template changes. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 17:28, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
...Or we could develop a template called "{{Template:No reliable sources}}
", no? A loose necktie (talk) 05:22, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- Whoops, did I just do that?? A loose necktie (talk) 05:59, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
Comingsoon.net
Hello. Do people believe that Comingsoon.net is an RS? I see it for example being used to quote a non-RS ... odd, and I'm not sure how we handle that if it is an RS - second question I guess. Thanks. --2603:7000:2143:8500:DDB2:A4E1:CCC1:91F3 (talk) 22:23, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
- Currently the wiki page for it is just a redirect to Mandatory (company), which is confirmed as running the site. I've used it before on a limited basis, but I'd be interested to hear what others have to say. I did a search for it, and it has been cited by ComicBook but I can't find it anywhere else, yet. Historyday01 (talk) 18:30, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
SciTechDaily
Source: SciTechDaily
Article: Chicxulub impactor
Content: [259]. Text was:
In 2021 a research team at Harvard University showed that a significant fraction of a comet originating in the solar system's Oort cloud was pushed off course by the gravitational pull of Jupiter and sent on a new orbit that brought it much closer to the Sun. As it approached, it began to break apart because of the Sun's tidal force and fractured into smaller pieces which then began to regularly cross Earths orbit and now impact the Earth every 250,000 to 730,000 years. This frequency is consistent with other impact events in the past, and the carbonaceous chondrite composition of the impactor is more consistent with that of a comet from the Oort cloud rather than a rogue asteroid from the much-closer asteroid belt.
While the website's own "About" page states that prior to 2011, "...the New York Times and others referred to us as essentially a Drudge Report for science and technology...", they claim to have made some major changes in their methods since then which, a decade later, make them look like a reliable source to me. I wanted to use them as a secondary source on an article published by a Harvard research team headed by a Professor of Science there, Avi Loeb, that was itself published in the journal Scientific Reports. Not reliable? Please comment. Thank you. A loose necktie (talk) 05:06, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- A link to evidence that "they claim to have made some major changes in their methods since then" would be nice. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:09, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- I don't see a reason to use this source over the NYT article that covers the same paper that is also cited in the article. The SciTechDaily article simply uncritically repeats the research akin to churnalism. While the NYTimes article actually asks other experts, who universally disagree with the conclusions presented in the study. Hemiauchenia (talk) 14:25, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- Further to this, there's no obilgation to include every single study that gets a widely publicised press release, per WP:NOTNEWS, and after I undid the edit the article was rewritten to include reference to the study and the fact that experts interviewed about it disagreed with its conclusions, based on the NYTimes article. Hemiauchenia (talk) 15:21, 20 February 2021 (UTC) Hemiauchenia (talk) 15:20, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
A doctoral thesis from 2020 cited in around 40 pages
I am a little concerned about the exceptionally widespread use of this source, it is a 2020(!) doctoral thesis by Andrey Nikulin entitled Proto-Macro-Je: Um Estudo Reconstrutivo, which reconstructs the ancestor of a proposed linguistic macro-family. I am not an expert in South-American languages, but I know a fair bit about linguistics, and it looks serious work. The supervisors have published widely in relevant fields. I would suggest it is the kind of doctoral thesis which we might be able to use with care, but it seems to have been added absolutely anywhere it can be put, it is listed as a source in around 40 of our articles.
What does the community think, is it necessary to reduce the use of this source or am I being overly bureaucratic in my interpretation of WP:RS?
Boynamedsue (talk) 16:22, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- They all appear to have been added by a single editor, @Sagotreespirit:. I would like to hear their explanation for using a doctoral thesis so widely before commenting further. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:30, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, it would be good to know the logic behind it. Boynamedsue (talk) 16:34, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- Sagotreespirit's userpage on the Portuguese Wikipedia, listing their interests and the articles they work on there, makes me believe that they very well might be the author of the thesis, or at least someone closely connected to the author... - Tom | Thomas.W talk 16:57, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- The source is cited a similar number of times on the Portuguese wiki, again added by the same user. But we would probably expect that from any user who had access to the paper, given its subject matter and language, assuming they considered it relevant. Boynamedsue (talk) 17:23, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
Pakpassion
Hi. I've seen this website used as references for BLPs on Pakistani cricketers, but wanted to find out more about its reliability. For example, this edit to Mohammad Hasnain's article adds a cite for his height. Now the article looks like an interview for the site, but at the foot of the page it has a "Discuss" link taking it to the website's forum, which copies the interview. So who is the article's author? A professional writer, or some anon. user on a web forum? Thoughts welcome. Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 20:27, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- It looks like it found fall under WP:UGC and it should generally be avoided. However, given that it was an interview with the BLP, using the site as a citation for the subject's height may be acceptable under WP:ABOUTSELF. Do you have a reason to believe the interview was completely fabricated, and anon users supplied those answers? Dr. Swag Lord (talk) 21:38, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
Reason and WaPo on NYT on Slate Star Codex
Sources. I'm asking about two sources:
- This Reason piece which elaborates the idea that the NYT piece is
a lazy hit piece that actively misleads readers, giving them the false impression that Siskind is at the center of a stealth plot to infiltrate Silicon Valley and pollute it with noxious far-right ideas
- This WaPo piece which reports that
There are multiple issues with that story. See the response by that blog’s author, Scott Alexander, as well as commentary from Yglesias and Fredrik deBoer.
Article. I'm wondering about using these sources in the article on Scott Alexander's now-defunct blog, Slate Star Codex.
Content. The article currently states:
The New York Times published an article about the blog in February 2021, two weeks after Alexander had publicly revealed his name.
This content cites this NYT piece. I'm suggesting that we add an additional sentence by appeal to the above two sources:
This piece has been criticized for making inaccurate and misleading statements about Alexander's political positions.
Shinealittlelight (talk) 22:28, 20 February 2021 (UTC)
- They're both opinion pieces (Reason largely publishes opinion and the WaPo source is from PostEverything, which publishes opinion pieces from outside contributors.) Reason is obviously a WP:BIASED source about rationalists in particular, so it would have to be attributed, and the WaPo mention is just in passing. Furthermore, the WaPo source says nothing about political positions specifically; it just vaguely mentions "multiple issues." I definitely don't think they're enough to make a sweeping unattributed claim that
This piece has been criticized for making inaccurate and misleading statements about Alexander's political positions
. In theory the Reason piece could be used for attributed opinion, but I feel that it's WP:UNDUE in context (it's a severe digression given that currently the article doesn't even attempt to summarize the NYT piece - ie. why would we cite an opinion piece responding to a NYT article when our article does no more than acknowledge that the NYT article exists?) I mean, what is the point of the sentence at all - "a NYT article on Slate Star Codex exists, which Reason magazine took issue with?" That seems tangential at the moment. If we were going massively in-depth on the NYT article it might make sense to cover back-and-forth related to it, but we're not. --Aquillion (talk) 22:43, 20 February 2021 (UTC)