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Forgotten Realms Wiki acceptable?
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hello! I would like to ask if the Forgotten Realms Wiki would count as an exception to the rule no. 12 of WP:ELNO of not using external links to open wikis except...
The Forgotten Realms Wiki has been alive and kicking since 2005, currently has about 35,000 articles and 84 active users (and rising: 95 as of 2021-03-07) and a steadily high acitivity, being currently rank no. 60 at Wikia with a WAM score of 97.68 (whatever that means). In my biased opinion as a contributor the average quality of article is also relatively high.
As further background why I think having that link(s) at appropriate page(s) would be good: Recently a number of Dungeons & Dragons and Forgotten Realms related articles have been deleted on the grounds that their content belongs to fandom wikis rather than Wikipedia. I assume some readers come to Wikipedia with the same naive notion then me, that you can more or less find all knowledge here. For these people, being pointed to where that content is, that does not actually fit in here, would be helpful. The Forgotten Realms Wiki is by far the largest and most successful wiki dealing with D&D Canon.
I have raised that question in the past here and here, but I am asking again because there was no clear consensus: @Nikkimaria: and @WhatamIdoing: argued for the removal of that link from Forgotten Realms, while @RhinoMind:, @Zxcvbnm: and me were for its inclusion, with both sides giving arguments for their views and @Otr500: commenting.
It would be great to get additional opinions for a clearer consensus. Thank you very much! Daranios (talk) 16:00, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- For a fan Wiki it is large. We do have an exception for Wookieepedia (though I don't believe we should but purely on the basis of it hosting blatant copyright violations.) The FR Wiki is only a fraction of the size of that, but it's still sizable and seems well maintained. I'd give it a definite maybe. Canterbury Tail talk 16:29, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
- I've been using it for years as a reader, but never edited. Overall I find its articles to be surprisingly well maintained, on average quite reliably sourced and informative. With the general consensus on Wikipedia being to move away from the inclusion of in-universe content with articles about fictional works over the past decade, I don't see the harm of relevant articles from FR Wikia being externally linked as an alternative for readers who might have expected such coverage from Wikipedia in the past. Haleth (talk) 17:43, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- I agree with Haleth; I've seen a lot of AfDs point that the FR Wikia exists so in-universe content is unneeded here. I think we should add link(s) at the appropriate page(s). I've also used the FR Wikia to find/doublecheck ISBNs, page numbers & difficult to find links in order to update articles here (mostly D&D sourcebooks & novels). Sariel Xilo (talk) 17:55, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you everyone! Are there any more opinions? Daranios (talk) 08:05, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- I know I've already commented, but I think it's fine as an external link. Not a reference clearly, but for an external link to the specific article, sure. Canterbury Tail talk 15:51, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you everyone! Are there any more opinions? Daranios (talk) 08:05, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Daranios: do we really need a perennial discussion for this (December 2019, May 2020, February 2021) just because you do not get a clear consensus for inclusion? Seen the December & May discussion there is not a clear consensus.
- Anyway. WP:ELNO #12 is one of our 'links to avoid'. We really avoid links to open wikis, and you really need a massive editor base to be stable (and that is not even true for Wikipedia itself). I do think the editor base is relatively small. But we do not outright forbid it, we avoid them. I can see that there are pages where the Wiki is acceptable, but no, it is not a link that should be added everywhere where it fits.
- Regarding specifically on Forgotten Realms, no, I don't think it not belongs. It is not an official wiki of the subject, it is totally fan based. It is not obviously endorsed by the official site of the subject. For general information it does not add specifically over the official site, and it is not linking to specific content that makes you understand the subject of Forgotten Realsm better (beyond the official site- per [1]: "The wiki is not a substitute for the original source material"), it has a different aim. --Dirk Beetstra T C 09:43, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Beetstra: Thanks for the input. The discussion seems important to me as I really feel that the Forgotten Realms Wiki would provide a value for the reader of Wikipedia, and because there was a majority for the inclusion of the link, but it was so slight I was advised to get back here. I am obviously here with my preconceived notions, but I am not the only one with that opinion. I still believe that the reasoning behind WP:ELNO #12 (linking to incorrect information, danger of spam, danger of the link becoming dead in the forseeable future) does not apply to the Forgotten Realms Wiki, and therefore I feel that in this case we would only adhere to a rule to avoid setting an example for other cases, but not because it makes sense in this case.
- As for the question if it helps understanding the subject of Forgotten Realms better: The Wiki provides an enormous amount of details about the FR that don't have a place at Wikipedia. Sure, it does not provide much more definition of the Forgotten Realms, but if we look at the Forgotten Realms article, that does provide a number of fictional details. The Wiki expands on those. Numerous articles have been redirected to Forgotten Realms on the basis "that's too much in-universe detail for Wikipedia". The Forgotten Realms Wiki provides details that have been excised here but which someone searching for that term may be interested in. And if a user of Wikipedia is looking for a FR subject which neither has an article nor a redirect, where will they look if not the Forgotten Realms article? And then again the Forgotten Realms Wiki would provide some of the detail they were looking for. Sorry for being lengthy. Daranios (talk) 11:57, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
- Daranios, if there was a clear consensus you would not have been here. The link was repeatedly included, and repeatedly removed.
- No, your thinking about #12 is wrong. It is there solely because most open wikis are not stable and do not have a large enough editor base (and I do doubt that this wiki satisfies that). We avoid linking to open wikis. When a link matches one of the 'to avoid' points, you need a solid reason to include it anyway.
- My second part of the reasoning is more pointed to the reason of why we link externally anyway. Is it information that is needed to understand the topic? No, not really, we have a large article with a large number of references. As for the 'where else would they look' .. they would first be directed to the official website. And apparently, the official website does not think this wiki to be important enough to link from there (I could not find it). Dirk Beetstra T C 09:41, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
- There's clearly disagreement about what's the right and wrong interpretation. So, assuming for a moment that both sides have valid arguments, the question is where is the dividing line between a no-consensus situation and a representative majority, and who decides that? Daranios (talk) 16:07, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
- Daranios, we don't count. "No page should be linked from a Wikipedia article unless its inclusion is justifiable according to this guideline and common sense" (WP:EL). Dirk Beetstra T C 07:38, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Beetstra: But IF "its inclusion is justifiable according to this guideline and common sense" is exactly what the disagreement is about. A majority thinks the inclusion of the Forgotten Realms Wiki link is justifyable according to common sense and WP:ELNO #12 as a wiki "with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors", a minority says it isn't. If we don't have any way (or neutral person) to judge when a majority counts here, that would mean the exception specified in the guideline could never be applied as soon as any one objection would be raised. That can't be right. Daranios (talk) 07:59, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- Daranios, you are now pushing it to a far end, which is not the case here, there are more than one objection/concerns. But we have mechanisms for these, and yes, in some cases we need independent closure of such cases. Dirk Beetstra T C 08:05, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Beetstra: So there's no further guidance between "get consensus" and arbitration? And I assume you are not convinced by the fact that six editors find it justified to include this link, and only three that it is not. Is that correct? As I said, I feel this really would be a valuable resource for the readers of the Forgotten Realms article, so I don't want to let it lie. I also don't want to escalate unnecessarily. So if not more opinions appear now, and as one of the issues is the question of substantial number of editors, I am thinking about waiting how the Forgotten Realms Wiki develops. If it should reach a number of 100+ registered editors for several months, the (minimum) value suggested by WhatamIdoing, I would start the discussion yet again, making it even more perennial but avoiding outside assistance for now. And hope that approach will not be annyoing for you. Daranios (talk) 12:28, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- Daranios, arbitration? There are so many steps between, even without escalating. And you are, again, counting (6:3), not looking at the arguments. Dirk Beetstra T C 12:51, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Beetstra: Cool, so I misunderstood "pushing it to a far end". So could you please let me know what could be the next step(s) towards a resolution without escalation?
- As for me counting: I have looked at the arguments and am not convinced by them. I also think I have explained why. - If you want me to explain more on any point, please let me know. I am baffled by your resistance to that external link, just like you seem to be baffled by my insistence. You believe you are right. I believe I am right. I cannot be sure that I am right, because there's several persons I could not convince. You (and here the counting comes in) should not be sure that you are right because there's (a larger number of) persons whom it seems you did not convince. Daranios (talk) 16:41, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- Daranios, my 'far end' was with regard to your 'any one objection would be raised', the link was twice reverted, and editors showed concerns.
- I don't think I am right, I gave my view. You realized in starting this thread there was no consensus, and therefore I think that you need to find independent closure/evaluation of the current three discussions. There are people who think it does not add, there are people who seem to not really care either way, and there are people who think it is beneficial. Or, which I think is already heavy handed for an external link, re-start the discussion through an RfC. Dirk Beetstra T C 16:57, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- Daranios, arbitration? There are so many steps between, even without escalating. And you are, again, counting (6:3), not looking at the arguments. Dirk Beetstra T C 12:51, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Beetstra: So there's no further guidance between "get consensus" and arbitration? And I assume you are not convinced by the fact that six editors find it justified to include this link, and only three that it is not. Is that correct? As I said, I feel this really would be a valuable resource for the readers of the Forgotten Realms article, so I don't want to let it lie. I also don't want to escalate unnecessarily. So if not more opinions appear now, and as one of the issues is the question of substantial number of editors, I am thinking about waiting how the Forgotten Realms Wiki develops. If it should reach a number of 100+ registered editors for several months, the (minimum) value suggested by WhatamIdoing, I would start the discussion yet again, making it even more perennial but avoiding outside assistance for now. And hope that approach will not be annyoing for you. Daranios (talk) 12:28, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- Daranios, you are now pushing it to a far end, which is not the case here, there are more than one objection/concerns. But we have mechanisms for these, and yes, in some cases we need independent closure of such cases. Dirk Beetstra T C 08:05, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Beetstra: But IF "its inclusion is justifiable according to this guideline and common sense" is exactly what the disagreement is about. A majority thinks the inclusion of the Forgotten Realms Wiki link is justifyable according to common sense and WP:ELNO #12 as a wiki "with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors", a minority says it isn't. If we don't have any way (or neutral person) to judge when a majority counts here, that would mean the exception specified in the guideline could never be applied as soon as any one objection would be raised. That can't be right. Daranios (talk) 07:59, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- Daranios, we don't count. "No page should be linked from a Wikipedia article unless its inclusion is justifiable according to this guideline and common sense" (WP:EL). Dirk Beetstra T C 07:38, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- There's clearly disagreement about what's the right and wrong interpretation. So, assuming for a moment that both sides have valid arguments, the question is where is the dividing line between a no-consensus situation and a representative majority, and who decides that? Daranios (talk) 16:07, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
@Beetstra: Sounds good. Can you point me to if there's an established way to find "independent closure/evaluation" by someone neutral to the topic/discussion so far? Daranios (talk) 19:31, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Daranios, you can request a summary of the discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:37, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for the tip! I have done so. Let's see what happens. Daranios (talk) 12:00, 11 March 2021 (UTC)
- Support inclusion on Forgotten Realms page - there is certainly information on the site that is on neither the official website nor the English Wikipedia. 15 years is a "substantial history of stability". The "substantial number of editors" is less clear, but I think there's enough for a link on that one page. I wouldn't support putting this link on every Forgotten Realms topic, though more editorially than because it is a ELNO issue. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 23:26, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
- 力, "15 years" is a "substantial history of stability" ... how did you assess that it was actually stable for 15 years? 15 years is a substantial history, that part is true. Dirk Beetstra T C 07:22, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
- (post-closing comment) It's an open wiki, you can check the history for yourself to assess stability. I checked half a dozen pages and all had existed with minimal vandalism for over 8 years, some had seen expansion in that time while others had minimal changes. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 16:17, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
- 力, "15 years" is a "substantial history of stability" ... how did you assess that it was actually stable for 15 years? 15 years is a substantial history, that part is true. Dirk Beetstra T C 07:22, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
- Support. It clearly qualifies as having a history of stability. "Substantial number of editors" has no definition, and is subjective, but it's basically not possible for a site to have that much content without a substantial number of editors. A subject as popular as FR/D&D is guaranteed to attract a "substantial number" of editors to its open public wiki at the place for open public wikis on pop-culture topics, pretty much by definition. (Oh, and this is more true now than it was even a few years ago, because Fandom, ex-Wikia, has now disallowed redundant wikis on the same topic and forced them to merge). The language of WP:EL on this needs clarification, since the line is too vague to offer clearly actionable guidance. How long is "a substantial history"? Or is that about volume of developed material regardless of site age? Etc. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:50, 4 April 2021 (UTC); rev'd. 08:23, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
- SMcCandlish, what is your measure for "history of stability" .. "stability" is just as subjective, does en.wikipedia have "stability" (we don't use that as external links)? Dirk Beetstra T C 07:23, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
- My post already answers this; it mostly is my measuring. The entire point I was making is that it's subjective but that this qualifies under any subjective interpretation that's reasonable. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 11:11, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
- SMcCandlish, what is your measure for "history of stability" .. "stability" is just as subjective, does en.wikipedia have "stability" (we don't use that as external links)? Dirk Beetstra T C 07:23, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
- Exclude It's user-generated. Cannot support notability. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:01, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
- That link would not be included because it supports notability (I agree that it cannot, but this subject's notability is not in dispute), but because it is a resource that can help a reader interested in the topic beyond the scope of Wikipedia. Daranios (talk) 07:12, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
- User-generated sources are not to be used. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:22, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
- User-generated sites are not to be used as reliable sources, true. But that is not the intention here. The intention is to provide it as an additional resource under "External links". And according to the relevant guideline, WP:ELNO, user-generated wikis are used for that sometimes. So the discussion here is if this specific wiki qualifies for this sometimes or not. Daranios (talk) 10:34, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
- User-generated sources are not to be used. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:22, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
- This isn't a valid rationale, it's "I wish the guideline were different" noise. UGC is only impermissible as a source citation (and even then only usually impermissible; there are various primary-sourceable exceptions,; e.g. a wiki is a valid source for what the wiki said when the subject is controversy about what the wiki said). The guideline, at Wikipedia:External_links#Links to be considered, specifically permits UGC in an "External links" context (specifically points 3–5, arguably also 6). So, Walter Görlitz is failing to argue whether this source complies with the guideline, but rather arguing to radically change the guideline itself. He's welcome to start a proposal, here or at WP:VPPRO, to ask whether the community wants to do that. But that is not this discussion. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 11:20, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
- That link would not be included because it supports notability (I agree that it cannot, but this subject's notability is not in dispute), but because it is a resource that can help a reader interested in the topic beyond the scope of Wikipedia. Daranios (talk) 07:12, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
Attempt to add Cheng Lei's official CGTN profile (archived on the Wayback Machine) to Cheng Lei (journalist)
- cgtn.com: Linksearch en (https) (insource) - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • MER-C X-wiki • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Wikipedia: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.com • Alexa
I attempted to add Cheng Lei (journalist)'s official CGTN profile (archived on the Wayback Machine) but the automated filter discourages it as CGTN is deemed an unreliable source in Wikipedia:Perennial sources. I was not citing CGTN as a reliable source but merely trying to link her profile so readers can see what the network said about her before her arrest.
Do I need to get some sort of consensus to add the EL in this circumstance? WhisperToMe (talk) 00:39, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
- No, but it might be worth talking to the Wikipedia:Edit filter folks about whether they've got that filter written correctly. If it's possible to differentiate the types of links by the URL (e.g., "cgtn.com/news" rather than "cgtn.com"), then they should be writing that filter more narrowly. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:33, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
- The way the filter is written is almost as strong as the spam-blacklist, with some rare/strange exceptions (bots are fine (why the heck a bot would add these sites to mainspace?), and copyvio-templates are fine (why, those can be just be mentioned in a non-linking way). I don't think we should override parts of sites, I don't think that we should exclude certain editors from the filter. Sigh. Turning the filter of to allow the edit and then turning it on again is going to harm anyone later who reverts vandalism on that page where the link got damaged/deleted.
- This could all just be blacklisted where the whitelist can override the rare use like this one. But the former of that would need a consensus. --Dirk Beetstra T C 12:30, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Beetstra: This filter is set to warn-only though; it's really just meant to be an "are you sure" button. It also tries to exclude anything that might be done via script (e.g. Twinkle-rollback, or adding a db or copyvio templates) because scripts traditionally are terrible at properly displaying filter warnings. There's a risk that the user will think the edit saved, and move on without checking. And bots should just be excluded from almost every filter; why discover the problem after you've blocked a 500-edit run? Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 22:48, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
- Suffusion of Yellow, ah, I understood that user:WhisperToMe was blocked to add the link. My bad. Then there is nothing to do. WTM, no, you don’t need consensus, just boldly go. Dirk Beetstra T C 05:47, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Beetstra: Ok! And I added the link. Thanks to everybody for participating! WhisperToMe (talk) 05:57, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Suffusion of Yellow, I'm still not sure why it's desirable for the filter to warn people against adding www.cgtn.com/face/... links (as opposed to www.cgtn.com/news/... links, which seems to be the format that they use for news articles). WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:02, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
- Best to ask Newslinger, who added that domain. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 02:27, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
- It is because a September 2020 RfC found consensus that CGTN (RSP entry) is unreliable in almost all cases, and there was no carve-out exception for content in its author profiles. I am not aware of a practical way to have an edit filter disregard the "External links" section of a specific article related to the link. However, if an editor is sure that the addition of the link is appropriate, all they have to do is submit the edit again, as advised by the message that is shown. — Newslinger talk 02:58, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Newslinger, the RSN discussion was about whether the news articles were reliable sources. That suggests that the filter should be warning only for cgtn.com/news/ links, and not for anything else. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:42, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
- The RfC statement is "What is the reliability of China Global Television Network (cgtn.com
)?" and the closing summary in its entirety is "There is a strong consensus to deprecate China Global Television Network." There is nothing in the closing summary that would suggest that certain parts of the CGTN website (cgtn.com) should be excluded from deprecation. Editors in the RfC expressed concern about CGTN's reputation for publishing unreliable information, particularly about living persons. CGTN's descriptions of living persons would fail WP:BLPRS (which "applies whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable and whether it is in a biography or in some other article") in nearly all cases, regardless of whether it is under the
/news
subdirectory or some other part of CGTN's website. If an editor is certain that a particular link to CGTN is appropriate, they are welcome to click "Publish changes" again after double-checking, as advised by the notice that appears. — Newslinger talk 22:18, 23 March 2021 (UTC)- There is also nothing in the RfC (NB: an RfC is the whole discussion, not just the convenient summary) that suggests anyone believes that CGTN makes up fairy tales about who's working on their staff, either, or that we need to deprecate the links to their staff bios. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:29, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
- China Global Television Network (cgtn.com) is deprecated, per the consensus in the RfC. There was no consensus to carve out any exceptions, and the RfC does not need to discuss every portion of CGTN to deprecate CGTN in its entirety. It is inappropriate to cite staff profiles of CGTN in almost all cases, as CGTN is neither independent nor reliable for this use case. Any exceptions afforded through WP:ABOUTSELF and WP:EL can still be used: the editor can simply click "Publish changes" once again after double-checking to ensure that the link addition is compliant with the policies and guidelines. — Newslinger talk 01:32, 26 March 2021 (UTC)
- There is also nothing in the RfC (NB: an RfC is the whole discussion, not just the convenient summary) that suggests anyone believes that CGTN makes up fairy tales about who's working on their staff, either, or that we need to deprecate the links to their staff bios. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:29, 25 March 2021 (UTC)
- The RfC statement is "What is the reliability of China Global Television Network (cgtn.com
- @Newslinger, the RSN discussion was about whether the news articles were reliable sources. That suggests that the filter should be warning only for cgtn.com/news/ links, and not for anything else. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:42, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
- It is because a September 2020 RfC found consensus that CGTN (RSP entry) is unreliable in almost all cases, and there was no carve-out exception for content in its author profiles. I am not aware of a practical way to have an edit filter disregard the "External links" section of a specific article related to the link. However, if an editor is sure that the addition of the link is appropriate, all they have to do is submit the edit again, as advised by the message that is shown. — Newslinger talk 02:58, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
- Best to ask Newslinger, who added that domain. Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 02:27, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Suffusion of Yellow, I'm still not sure why it's desirable for the filter to warn people against adding www.cgtn.com/face/... links (as opposed to www.cgtn.com/news/... links, which seems to be the format that they use for news articles). WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:02, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Beetstra: Ok! And I added the link. Thanks to everybody for participating! WhisperToMe (talk) 05:57, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
- Suffusion of Yellow, ah, I understood that user:WhisperToMe was blocked to add the link. My bad. Then there is nothing to do. WTM, no, you don’t need consensus, just boldly go. Dirk Beetstra T C 05:47, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Beetstra: This filter is set to warn-only though; it's really just meant to be an "are you sure" button. It also tries to exclude anything that might be done via script (e.g. Twinkle-rollback, or adding a db or copyvio templates) because scripts traditionally are terrible at properly displaying filter warnings. There's a risk that the user will think the edit saved, and move on without checking. And bots should just be excluded from almost every filter; why discover the problem after you've blocked a 500-edit run? Suffusion of Yellow (talk) 22:48, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
- I added the CGTN profile to the Cheng Lei article. WhisperToMe (talk) 05:22, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
TV Tropes
- tvtropes.org: Linksearch en (https) (insource) - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • MER-C X-wiki • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Wikipedia: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.com • Alexa
TV Tropes ([2]) currently has 205 outgoing links from mainspace, discounting 28 from the website's own article. There is consensus at this TfD from March 2020 that TV Tropes should not be used as an external link per WP:ELNO#EL12. The website is classified as generally unreliable at WP:RSP. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:12, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
- LaundryPizza03, there were COPYVIO concerns expressed in User_talk:XLinkBot/Archive_1#tvtropes.org. Maybe time for a drastic cleanup? Dirk Beetstra T C 10:23, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
- Of course. Actually, I was considering blacklisting the site to prevent further abuse, but the copyvio concerns only corroborate that. Either that, or make XLinkBot automatically remove links in mainspace to stop misuse. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 21:49, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
- While I wholly agree that the bulk of these TV Trope links are invalid, there are exceptional uses. It is mentioned at Groundhog Day (film) to recognize that the time loop from the film is named Groundhog Day at TVT due to the film's popularity, but that's supported with a non-TVT source as well. But I better this may be the only valid use among one or two others. --Masem (t) 21:53, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
- @LaundryPizza03, I don't think we need to prevent people from linking to this website in userspace, on talk pages, etc. (Whether it's "generally unreliable" according to RSP is irrelevant, because it's okay for ==External links== to be unreliable.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:03, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
- WhatamIdoing, while it is OK to be unreliable for external links, being unreliable can go quite well with being inaccurate or misleading, which we do strongly discourage linking to as well. Dirk Beetstra T C 11:05, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
- I agree with you in the general case, but that's not really relevant in this case. Editors shouldn't cite TV Tropes because it's a WP:USERGENERATED fan site. It doesn't have a reputation for being inaccurate or misleading. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:27, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
- WhatamIdoing, while it is OK to be unreliable for external links, being unreliable can go quite well with being inaccurate or misleading, which we do strongly discourage linking to as well. Dirk Beetstra T C 11:05, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
- @LaundryPizza03, I don't think we need to prevent people from linking to this website in userspace, on talk pages, etc. (Whether it's "generally unreliable" according to RSP is irrelevant, because it's okay for ==External links== to be unreliable.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:03, 9 April 2021 (UTC)
- While I wholly agree that the bulk of these TV Trope links are invalid, there are exceptional uses. It is mentioned at Groundhog Day (film) to recognize that the time loop from the film is named Groundhog Day at TVT due to the film's popularity, but that's supported with a non-TVT source as well. But I better this may be the only valid use among one or two others. --Masem (t) 21:53, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
- Of course. Actually, I was considering blacklisting the site to prevent further abuse, but the copyvio concerns only corroborate that. Either that, or make XLinkBot automatically remove links in mainspace to stop misuse. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 21:49, 7 April 2021 (UTC)
BYU finding aids
- findingaid.lib.byu.edu: Linksearch en (https) (insource) - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • MER-C X-wiki • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Wikipedia: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.com • Alexa
I am concerned that these links were added in good faith but are not helpful to readers and are inappropriate external links. The links that I have examined do not provide any information beyond "this library has a collection of relevant materials." Importantly, they do not provide scans, photographs, summaries, or analyses of those materials; they simply tell readers that those materials are there and they're accessible to researchers. That is critical information for researchers but they are not the audience of our encyclopedia. I think it would be appropriate to remove all of these links that do not provide any information beyond notice that the materials are physically housed and available in BYU's archives.
(Yes, these issues do exist with other finding aids that have been added to articles; I don't have any other examples handy but I have seen and removed them in the past.) ElKevbo (talk) 21:20, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
- Links to finding aids are not banned; see Wikipedia talk:External links/Archive 39#Request for comment on finding aids.
- I looked at three articles that link to a BYU finding aid. Two use it as a reference, which is outside the scope of this noticeboard. The third, Cecil B. DeMille, contains several links in the Cecil B. DeMille#Archival materials section. I don't think that these are very exciting myself, but I don't think that I'd remove them, either. You're right that researchers (a group that's larger than solely academic researchers) aren't Wikipedia's primary audience, but the audience also isn't everyone except researchers.
- Of course, if you think that a specific external link harms an individual article, then you're free to remove it. As we don't have a consensus against the general concept, systematic removal is likely to be inappropriate. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:08, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks; that RfC link is helpful context. My question is not about all finding aids but these specific ones that literally provide no information beyond "the BYU archives has materials relevant to this topic." That is minimally helpful and only pertinent for a very, very small minority of readers as the professional researchers and scholars who are most interested in that information will likely already know where the subject's papers are archived. ElKevbo (talk) 23:27, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
- ElKevbo, I would say that a finding aid should actually lead to more information beyond the document / other external links. 'yep, we also have a book by X' would not cut it for me, but what I see in e.g. Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer#External_links seems appropriate. Dirk Beetstra T C 07:35, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Beetstra: Are you referring to this link? If so, can you please help me understand how that link is appropriate? It appears to only have a few rather scant paragraphs of very basic information about the subject and I don't understand how that lets it qualify as an appropriate EL. Thanks! ElKevbo (talk) 13:34, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- ElKevbo, the library has "27 cartons (27 linear ft.)" & "1 oversize box (1.5 linear ft.) : Quarto I half-box", that looks like sufficient data for someone to walk into that library and learn more about the subject. It is certainly more than what we can incorporate in the article. Dirk Beetstra T C 14:24, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- Right but those aren't web-based resources that anyone can access except those who physically visit the archives. So why does that listing of library resources belong in the External links section? Would we also accept links to a listing of library books or search results from a card catalog? What information beyond "this archive has boxes of relevant resources" does that link provide? ElKevbo (talk) 15:14, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- Further clarification: It may be appropriate to mention this archive in a "Further reading" section or note in the body of the article that this archive exists. My argument is simply that this link and others like it don't provide enough substantive information to merit inclusion in the EL section. (Other finding aids that provide substantive information, including those that include scans of the materials, are of course a different discussion and likely merit inclusion in the EL section.) ElKevbo (talk) 15:19, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:The Wikipedia Library/Research libraries#Linking to archival collections and finding aids suggests that ==External links== is the usual location, but it sounds like you'd rather see it in another section. Maybe something similar to ==Further reading== or a ==Publications== section, perhaps called ==Archives==? Please have a look at these, and see whether any of them look like a reasonable jumping-off point:
- Maybe something could be adapted here? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:55, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
- ElKevbo, I am not sure whether being web-based is a real requirement. References can be material that is only available in hard-copy (and do not even have to be on paper). I do however think that 9 meter worth of material is a significant resource for the article. My first suggestion would however be to make sure that we clearly describe what we are sending people to: "Finding aid author: John N. Gillespie (2013). "Collection of Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer scripts". Prepared for the L. Tom Perry Special Collections, Provo, UT. Retrieved May 16, 2016" does not really suggest that this is a place for a physical storage, not a web-based storage.
- That being said, yes, maybe there is a better header for that, but in the end they are similar - whether it is further reading or external links, it is still an external-link section. And it seems silly to me to have a further reading section with one link and an external links section with also one link. Dirk Beetstra T C 06:12, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
- ElKevbo, the library has "27 cartons (27 linear ft.)" & "1 oversize box (1.5 linear ft.) : Quarto I half-box", that looks like sufficient data for someone to walk into that library and learn more about the subject. It is certainly more than what we can incorporate in the article. Dirk Beetstra T C 14:24, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- @Beetstra: Are you referring to this link? If so, can you please help me understand how that link is appropriate? It appears to only have a few rather scant paragraphs of very basic information about the subject and I don't understand how that lets it qualify as an appropriate EL. Thanks! ElKevbo (talk) 13:34, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- ElKevbo, I would say that a finding aid should actually lead to more information beyond the document / other external links. 'yep, we also have a book by X' would not cut it for me, but what I see in e.g. Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer#External_links seems appropriate. Dirk Beetstra T C 07:35, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks; that RfC link is helpful context. My question is not about all finding aids but these specific ones that literally provide no information beyond "the BYU archives has materials relevant to this topic." That is minimally helpful and only pertinent for a very, very small minority of readers as the professional researchers and scholars who are most interested in that information will likely already know where the subject's papers are archived. ElKevbo (talk) 23:27, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
Thanks for sharing those specific examples:
- The Real Paper#Archives: This seems appropriate and useful especially as this section cites an independent reliable source that clearly establishes this as noteworthy information to include in an article. I'm not completely convinced this merits its own section in the article but that's a minor quibble.
- Eve Merriam#References: The first link is broken so I cannot comment on its utility and appropriateness beyond common concerns about link rot. The other links to the archives at Harvard are not helpful or appropriate; they do not provide information for readers beyond "these archives exist."
- Nicholas A. Basbanes#Archives: This section is supported by multiple independent reliable sources and seems entirely appropriate.
- Suhrkamp Verlag#Archives: This section is supported by an independent reliable source and seems appropriate.
- Edwin Way Teale#Archives: This section doesn't have any independent reliable sources so it could be challenged on grounds of lacking sources and due weight.
- Doris Lessing#Archives: This section doesn't have any independent reliable sources so it could be challenged on grounds of lacking sources and due weight.
Those are prose sections of articles, however, so they're distinct from the "External links" section. I would object to including any of the links in those sections in the EL section if they don't have substantive information beyond "this physical archive exists."
To respond to your second comment and set of questions: Of course being web-based is a requirement for being included in the "External links" section! If the resource is not web-based then it may be appropriate for a "Further reading" section or another section in the article. And the resource must be substantive with more information than can be included in the article. "This library has a collection of the subject's papers" is the sum total of many of these webpages and that clearly is not substantive.
I agree with your statement that whenever we include these links we should be clear about what it is we're linking to. I think we should even consider whether "finding aid" is the best way to describe these for a general audience as it's a term that is probably not at all meaningful for most readers of this encyclopedia. "Archive [of papers]" or something similar is probably much more clear and, as you suggest, we should also be clear about whether that archive is available online (e.g., "Scanned archive [of papers]") or not (which I am arguing should probably not be included in articles in most cases unless the archive has been explicitly discussed in an independent, reliable source).
In general, I worry that the very well-intentioned zeal of those who use and maintain archives has slightly ridden roughshod over our core policies and practices, especially WP:RS and WP:DUE. We do not include information in an article unless it has been discussed in reliable sources, preferably sources that are independent. We do not provide links to webpages unless they provide a substantial amount of information that cannot be included in the article. In many cases, the webpages for specific archives do not meet either of these sets of criteria. The proper recourse is not to ignore our policies and practices but to either expand those webpages so they provide substantive information or work with authors and editors to have information about the archive published in an independent, reliable source. ElKevbo (talk) 14:05, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
- ElKevbo, references can be just a paper book, burned into wood, or carved in stone. There is no reason why we can't link to external material that is like that in external links either. Sure, it is preferred to be online, but that is not an absolute requirement. I think this is a useful pointer to external material for readers who wish to expand their knowledge on the subject, are doing a research project on it. Dirk Beetstra T C 02:04, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
- We're not discussing references, we're discussing external links. By definition those are required to be online otherwise they wouldn't be links.
- Exactly what about a link to a website that has one or paragraphs of information and a note that "more information can be located if you physically come here" has "further research that is accurate and on-topic, information that could not be added to the article for reasons such as copyright or amount of detail, or other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article for reasons unrelated to its accuracy?" This link, for example, was in Belle S. Spafford. What information in that link is useful for readers? How is the information that you claim is useful for readers accessible to them (this is the first bullet point in the guideline's "What to include" section)? ElKevbo (talk) 02:45, 14 April 2021 (UTC)
- @ElKevbo, would you have the same complaint if the section were re-titled ==Further reading==? Or ==Archived papers==? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:52, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- Good question. I would have other concerns, some of which might be dismissed or not held by other editors, but my primary concern of "these links don't provide nearly enough information to warrant inclusion in the External links section" would be answered. I also reiterate that this concern applies to many but not all of these links as a minority of them do provide extensive material that an editor could argue in good faith qualifies the link for inclusion in that section.
- Regardless of which section they're put in, I do worry that in many cases there are unanswered WP:DUE concerns about what, if any, criteria are applied to decide which archives links to include. In fairness, that question probably haunts the "Further reading" and "External links" section of nearly every article that has more than just the most anemic sets of materials. But I do worry some that the criterion of "one Wikipedia editor, almost certainly one who works at the archive in question, decided on his or her own to add the link" is both the default and dominant criterion. We would avoid that problem if we were to insist that these archives be described in the body of articles and be supported by independent (of the archive and its hosting organization) sources that attest to the significance or importance of the archive.
- (If it matters, it seems to me that the "Further reading" section is probably a pretty appropriate for these content-light links. It's quite common that Web-inaccessible materials - books, for example - be included in that section so a link that documents the location of a large collection of Web-inaccessible materials would probably not be out of place. I'm skeptical that there would be widespread acceptance of a new "Archives" section or something similar but I could be wrong and that's totally okay.) ElKevbo (talk) 03:26, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- ElKevbo, yes, I would not make yet another external links-like section and name it 'archives'. Then we get evasion of linkfarming by splitting it over different sections. And I agree, there must be significance in the material, and the material should be significant in size. Dirk Beetstra T C 03:35, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- ElKevbo, I know that that are references. These are external links. But to me, the same applies. It is still linking to material that cannot be included in the article for reasons such as ... amount of detail, it is meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article for reasons unrelated to its accuracy.
- I agree, volume is a point. Half a foot vs. 27 linear feet. But that is what I said. It should not be 'we also have a book by this author'. Dirk Beetstra T C 03:31, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
- @ElKevbo, would you have the same complaint if the section were re-titled ==Further reading==? Or ==Archived papers==? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:52, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
Update/shameless plug of WP:UPSD, a script to detect unreliable sources
It's been about 14 months since this script was created, and since its inception it became one of the most imported scripts (currently #54, with 286+ adopters).
Since last year, it's been significantly expanded to cover more bad sources, and is more useful than ever, so I figured it would be a good time to bring up the script up again. This way others who might not know about it can take a look and try it for themselves. I would highly recommend that anyone doing citation work, who writes/expands articles, or does bad-sourcing/BLP cleanup work installs the script.
The idea is that it takes something like
- John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14. (
John Smith "[https://www.deprecated.com/article Article of things]" ''Deprecated.com''. Accessed 2020-02-14.
)
and turns it into something like
- John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.
It will work on a variety of links, including those from {{cite web}}, {{cite journal}} and {{doi}}.
Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 13:10, 25 April 2021 (UTC)
- Headbomb has put a lot of energy into the documentation, and in particular, encouraging people to not use this script mindlessly. Please remember that just because something gets highlighted is not absolute proof that it needs to be removed. For some of the categories, it's really 50–50 (largely due to some large publishers producing both very good and very bad quality sources, and there's no way to tell which is which just from the URL). WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:49, 28 April 2021 (UTC)