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RfC: AllSides media bias ratings
- The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Which of the following best describes AllSides's (allsides.com) media bias ratings? This question has been discussed several times at RSN (1, 2, 3, 4, 5), but participants have mostly talked passed one another and editors recently disagreed on how to interpret the consensus. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 15:43, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- Option 1: Generally reliable
- Option 2: Additional considerations apply
- Option 3: Generally unreliable
Survey: Allsides
- Option 2: I believe that broadly categorizing AllSides as either reliable or unreliable would oversimplify it. Their website consists of several different sections with different but related aims; they have drawn by far the most attention from editors for their media bias ratings, which attempt to describe the bias of websites' news reporting on a five-point scale. In making these assessments, they depend on a variety of factors; along with each rating, they include a section explaining how they reached the conclusion they did. Some of their explanations, like those for The New York Times and Fox News, are extremely thorough; others, like those for The Telegraph and The Atlantic, seem to rely heavily on surveys, which is problematic. (AllSides acknowledges this by noting that they have "low confidence" in the latter two ratings.) Their research seems reasonably well-done, they have solid editorial control, and they are frank in acknowledging their limitations. Personally, I think that we should approach AllSides on a case-by-case basis; the more exhaustive the methodology section is, the more likely the rating is to be reliable and constitute due weight. Ratings in which they have "low confidence" should probably never be used, while high confidence ratings are generally usable with attribution, though in some articles, editors may not consider them valuable enough to include. In some cases, content from the methodology section may be usable even when the bias rating itself is not, although when they are reporting what other sources have said, editors should prefer those sources. There are several other caveats that I believe editors should keep in mind when using AllSides: it does not consider opinion columns nor any television programming, it deliberately chooses not to assess the reliability of sources, and AllSides uses the concepts of left- and right-wing politics in their American sense, which does not apply very well to European politics. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 16:40, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- Option 1. As I note in the discussion below, several media organizations that explicitly cover the source give it high marks for its bias ratings. Common Sense Media gives AllSides high marks, writing that the
news analysis site attempts to offer a thorough assessment of recent media coverage -- and essentially succeeds at that goal
and thatGenerally, AllSides does a stellar job of breaking issues down
. CSM also notes some limitations of the methodology (the site's analysis solely involves online reporting, not broadcast or other print coverage
). Deseret News's executive editor also appears to like the site's methodology. Several experts interviewed by Poynter gives the media bias rating methodology high marks. Allsides also has a partnership with Christian Science Monitor, which itself has a stellar reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. The source's methodology is explicitly given, and the explicit statement in the confidence the source has in a particular rating should enable Wikipedia users to avoid using low-confidence ratings—this is a significantly better source than the number of media bias sites that don't state their methodology and/or don't give anything akin to a confidence interval. Overall, this has the reputation a WP:GREL source for labeling media bias; even USA Today explicitly uses the website as a source for the political orientation of media organizations in its own fact checks (1 2). — Mhawk10 (talk) 17:53, 11 March 2022 (UTC)- Option 3. AllSides Media is basically a completely opinionated source. In my opinion, it should only be treated as a primary source.
- Should we listen to Common Sense Media (CSM) comments on them? CSM is an organization that reviews and provides ratings for media and technology with the goal of providing information on their suitability for children.1 It has also been noted by other news organisations for being an advocacy group(might be lobbyist too).23456 CSM rates them something good but The actual parents gave them half the rating.
- In addition to that, CSM also mentions,
The site's rating system isn't perfect -- AllSides makes it clear that it, too, approaches coverage with some level of bias.
- AllSides Media has been using Wikipedia as it's source multiple times. I think AllSides is fine for personal learning, but I doubt it could be used in Wikipedia as a source.
Allsides also has a partnership with Christian Science Monitor
. They also have a partnership with The Epoch Times, which was deprecated in a 2019 RfC. Viral weirdo (talk) 09:13, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 3 Like the rest of the "media bias" aggregators, this site does not have a reputation for fact checking and accuracy. There are reliable sources for media bias - published, peer reviewed papers. Further, reviewing the Poynter article, the methodology that AllSides uses to rate is beyond problematic - it's bad. "In the blind bias survey, which Mastrine called “one of (AllSides’) most robust bias rating methodologies,” readers from the public rate articles for political bias. Two AllSides staffers with different political biases pull articles from the news sites that are being reviewed. AllSides locates these unpaid readers through its newsletter, website, social media account and other marketing tools." Just no. Hipocrite (talk) 18:38, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- In fact, the
peer reviewed papers
use AllSides as their data source for media bias. To say that there is a great deal of separation between peer-reviewed media bias literature and the AllSides ratings is simply not true. — Mhawk10 (talk) 19:01, 11 March 2022 (UTC)- You can use anything as a data source... This is a bit of a specific point but my dog once published a paper which almost entirely relied on Inspire (magazine) as a data source, that in no way means that the house publication of AQAP is a reliable source. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:38, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- If you don't mind sharing on your dog(?)'s writings, can I ask what the data from Inspire (magazine) was used for in that study? — Mhawk10 (talk) 06:24, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- You can use anything as a data source... This is a bit of a specific point but my dog once published a paper which almost entirely relied on Inspire (magazine) as a data source, that in no way means that the house publication of AQAP is a reliable source. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:38, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- In fact, the
- Option 3 per my reasoning in the discussion section. They're a tool which may be valuable for use outside of wikipedia but as a source its a no-go and we have no use for such tools here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:47, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- Option 2 - I agree with the assessment of Compassionate272, above. Judge it on a case by case basis… because a LOT depends on how confident they are in their own methodology and rating. Blueboar (talk) 19:02, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- Option 3 Generally unreliable. Placing ideologies on the political spectrum is inherently subjective, i.e., it depends on the position of the person placing them. Allsides groups CNN, The Nation and Jacobin as left-wing. In reality there is a large difference between CNN, which is corporate media supporting liberal capitalism, and Jacobin, which describes itself as "a leading voice of the American left, offering socialist perspectives on politics, economics, and culture." (It shows a picture of Karl Marx.) The reason anyone would believe these publications occupy the same place in the political spectrum would be if they were conspiracy theorists. TFD (talk) 21:40, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- Option 2 I agree with most of the comments raised by Compassionate727, who previously I had a discussion with on the reliability of the source. It is indubitably subjective and should IMO certainly be evaluated case by case basis. The quality of AllSides likewise tremendously depends on its asserted quality, e.g., the high confidence ratings are definitely more reliable, but even though they clearly do not manifest Option 1 as generally reliable. For example, it lists the CSM as centrist with high confidence, vindicating that “As of May 2016, The Christian Science Monitor’s AllSides media bias rating remained the same, despite a small majority of nearly 2,500 community members disagreeing with our Center rating.” Nevertheless, currently most of the community disagrees with the rating, which the site states may lead to a re-evaluation, but this is not the case and the entry has not been updated. Besides, its low confidence entries are poor, including the Daily Telegraph one linking back to Wikipedia as a ref, which seems to be circular source IMO. As per Compassionate 727’s comments, some of its ratings are almost entirely based on Blind Bias Surveys that are attributed from people all over the spectrum with no noted expertise, which might be unreliable. As a result, to me AllSides could at best be used for rudimentary info preferably with attribution, and if other RS cover it they should be preferred over this.
- Mhawk10’s comments are also insightful, but I do disagree with some aspects. Common Sense Media, an RS primarily for film and media reviews, give AllSides a favourable rating. This does not seem to make it reliable- it also awarded WP a four star rating, despite it being user-generated. Further, the source does not seem to have a reputation for accuracy, as almost all source can be found in peer-reviewed journals, including MBFC, but this does not likely warrant significant coverage. Therefore, to me this is not generally reliable even for the high confidence ratings and should be determined situationally. Many thanks. VickKiang (talk) 21:59, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- The star-rating system you're referencing isn't a reliability scale. According to their methodology,
Common Sense Media rates media based on both age appropriateness and, for digital media, learning potential. We rely on developmental criteria from some of the nation's leading authorities to determine what content is appropriate for which ages. And research on how kids learn from media and technology informs our learning ratings.
Wikipedia is actually quite good for learning about new things—that is the entire purpose of having a free encyclopedia. And, CSM flags Wikipedia asCollaborative reference: Research with caution.
If you read the extended description, it says thatKids must be encouraged to think critically about what they read and double check facts and sources if they are using anything for a homework assignment
when viewing Wikipedia; it's not saying that WP is actually super reliable for asserting specific facts in a high school-level academic setting (or, presumably, in more serious settings). — Mhawk10 (talk) 03:26, 12 March 2022 (UTC)- Thanks, and I concur with your statements on WP, but you stated that CSM gave high marks, while also suggesting that it only determines learning potential, so how does that make this source reliable? The view expressed for the Poynter article is cherry picked, it states “But use them with caution” and likewise notes the similarities of AllSides and Ad Fontes, the later being generally unreliable. I am also tentative of the quality of the Deseret article, it labels as an opinion piece only and also said that “Meanwhile, the Ad Fonte Media Bias Chart—yet another respected gauge of bias”. Do you consider Ad Fontes also reliable?
- Thanks for your helpful ideas and please comment below for any disagreements. Cheers and thanks. VickKiang (talk) 04:41, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- When I say "high marks", I was not referring to the star-based rating system, but to the quote that immediately followed that statement and to the section of the page titled "Is It Any Good?" more generally. I apologize for the lack of clarity there. The caution Poynter is expressing is to not use bias to determine reliability; we capture this in our guideline WP:BIASED, but that hardly seems like a mark against the bias ratings provided by this source. — Mhawk10 (talk) 03:43, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for the useful clarification, and apologies for my misunderstanding. However, I would also point out that IMO the CSM's evaluation of 'Is it any good?' on its own is not a sufficient indication of reliability and is skewed towards learning potential. There are dozens of examples, but one of them is that it cites Britannica as the "most trusted resource" and praises it extensively, notwithstanding it being only marginally reliable upon a search on WP: Perennial Sources. In comparison, would you view that source to be as top-notch as CSM suggests? Further, the claim that the experts gave AllSides high marks might be erroneous, as that interviewed expert is Mastrine, who is the owner of the unreliable Ad Fontes and likely does not reflect the general view of professionals in media research (hence her praise is likely biased). The comment of USA Today's use of this source for the fact check is invalid as it also cites MBFC. Would you consider MBFC as well as Ad Fontes (please see my previous argument on your comments made for Deseret News article, which noteworthily is merely an opinion source) reliable? As a result, from my point of view, the statement of "USA Today explicitly uses the website as a source for the political orientation of media organizations in its own fact checks" is cherry-picked as unreliable sources are frequently utilised. It is present in some peer-reviewed journals but is tangentially mentioned (i.e., your discussion noted below, and like already said media bias sites are used for sure occasionally, including MBFC for the Iffy Quotient, but is too restrained for significant use). Nevertheless, AllSides is marginally better than Ad Fontes and MBFC because of its unambiguously stated methodology, still, it lacks IMO the status of a reliable source. Thanks again for your comments and time. Cheers. VickKiang (talk) 05:26, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
- When I say "high marks", I was not referring to the star-based rating system, but to the quote that immediately followed that statement and to the section of the page titled "Is It Any Good?" more generally. I apologize for the lack of clarity there. The caution Poynter is expressing is to not use bias to determine reliability; we capture this in our guideline WP:BIASED, but that hardly seems like a mark against the bias ratings provided by this source. — Mhawk10 (talk) 03:43, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
- The star-rating system you're referencing isn't a reliability scale. According to their methodology,
- Option 3. They are primarily opinion (and are mostly covered as such) but make no particular distinction between fact an option; the poynter coverage of them above specifically does not praise or even evaluate them in its article voice that I can see, and most of the usage or coverage consists of passing mentions; most of what it says is quoted from AllSides. "Raw data" types of websites are generally very hard to use because it's tricky for them to be anything other than primary for their own raw data; but we definitely couldn't use them to support statements in the article voice, and whether to cover things as their opinion is going to come down to due weight - which is often going to be lacking. Additionally, the very nature of AllSides means that their coverage of news sources is going to be indiscriminate, ie. a source having a rating there means little, as opposed to academic papers discussing their bias. There are just much better (and more specific) source available on the political outlook of sources when it is relevant, which AllSides shouldn't be weighted with and therefore isn't generally usable along; and if AllSides is the only source, it's hard to support using it because of its indiscriminate nature and blurring of reporting and opinion. This makes it difficult to see any situation where it would be an RS. --Aquillion (talk) 03:57, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- Option 2 I agree with Compassionate. This should be on a case-by-case basis. Sometimes Allsides is great, using thorough fact checking methods, while other times it's a bit more of an online survey. For the Allsides ratings that are supported by other RS or appear to have undergone a good analysis they are generally reliable, but for the one's that appear to have received little attention and care, they should not be used. Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 06:42, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- Option 2 per Compassionate727. LondonIP (talk) 12:20, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
- Option 3 - agree with Aquillion’s perspective. I will add that without years of training and hands-on experience learning how to approach a topic from a NPOV, most human-based methods are likely to be biased, inadvertent or otherwise. Atsme 💬 📧 20:21, 26 March 2022 (UTC)
- Option 2: RS always depends on the WP:RSCONTEXT, what the intended use is, and this question seems too vague to do much, but I’ll offer some specifics for UK publications. As Mhawk10 and Horse Eyes mention below, The Guardian, Daily Telegraph, and Independent already have stated political affiliations in their articles, so there seems no need, but if the Allsides view of them is being mentioned by third parties then sure, that could be cited. Third party articles with mentions to Allsides would be citeable because they are stable and presumably saying something. But a WP editor going and looking up that day’s ratings would not be usable in article space. Partly because that would be OR, but mostly that any online moving rating is perhaps not going to return the same values next week so mechanically is not usable in article space. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 14:10, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 3 The methodology for their ratings does not seem to be reliable to me. It's a useful tool, but I would not feel comfortable citing it on Wikipedia. Scorpions13256 (talk) 04:18, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 1 for editorial reviews, Option 3 for user-contributed, and WP:DISCARD opinions that
don't specify whether they're about the user-contributed or editorial sections of the websitedon't acknowledge a difference between articles created using different methodologies. The editorial reviews posted on AllSides are well-regarded by reliable sources.Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 15:11, 22 April 2022 (UTC)- @Ipnsaepl28: are you seriously suggesting that every single opinion other than yours be discarded? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:28, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back: no, I'm saying that opinions that aren't based on the facts and the relevant policies should be discarded. Some opinions above implicitly make a distinction between user-contributed and editorial articles on AllSides, but others do not. When such an important distinction is not made, any resultant consensus will be heavily flawed and disconnected from the facts, which is what WP:DISCARD seeks to prevent. Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 15:38, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- Nobody else makes an explicit distinction in the way you have, if you think that some do please name them. Please identify the relevant policies which you feel are being disregarded. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:42, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- I realize that the original statement I made was a bit too extreme. I've modified it (with a strikethrough to preserve the original text). Compassionate727 and Iamreallygoodatcheckers
implicitly
make a distinction between different types of content. Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 15:48, 22 April 2022 (UTC)- Ok so currently you are calling for 12 of 15 opinions to be discarded? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:52, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- No, many opinions cite Compassionate727 or Iamreallygoodatcheckers's opinions as part of their reasoning, or use a distinction in their reasoning that is similar to theirs. Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 15:55, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- Then which opinions do you want to see discarded and what relevant policies do you feel they are disregarding? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:58, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- No, many opinions cite Compassionate727 or Iamreallygoodatcheckers's opinions as part of their reasoning, or use a distinction in their reasoning that is similar to theirs. Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 15:55, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- Ok so currently you are calling for 12 of 15 opinions to be discarded? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:52, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- I realize that the original statement I made was a bit too extreme. I've modified it (with a strikethrough to preserve the original text). Compassionate727 and Iamreallygoodatcheckers
- Nobody else makes an explicit distinction in the way you have, if you think that some do please name them. Please identify the relevant policies which you feel are being disregarded. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:42, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back: no, I'm saying that opinions that aren't based on the facts and the relevant policies should be discarded. Some opinions above implicitly make a distinction between user-contributed and editorial articles on AllSides, but others do not. When such an important distinction is not made, any resultant consensus will be heavily flawed and disconnected from the facts, which is what WP:DISCARD seeks to prevent. Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 15:38, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Ipnsaepl28: Also, could you explain why you believe that the editorial reviews are completely reliable? As per Compassionate727's argument, IMO there is a clear difference even in the reliability of the editorial reviews, with some only with low confidence ratings and citing unreliable sources. Also, why is it "well-regarded by reliable sources"? Yes, some limited examples, including CSM and Deseret News, cite it, but please see my argument above on the flaws of those sources. Thanks. VickKiang (talk) 23:05, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Ipnsaepl28: are you seriously suggesting that every single opinion other than yours be discarded? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:28, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 3 Their methodology is lacklustre, intransparent in its details, and almost entirely based on subjective opinion. There also seems to be conflicts of interest; for example, Epoch Times is usually associated with conspiracy theories and the far-right in peer-reviewed studies, yet AllSides labels it as "centre-right" and makes no mention of the frequent conspiracy theories that they peddle. This seems highly questionable given that AllSides has partnered with Epoch Times. Sarrotrkux (talk) 15:00, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
Discussion: Allsides
- Coverage of Wikipedia aside Allsides does not have a reputation for fact checking and accuracy, their opinion may be notable when mentioned by a WP:RS but they are not themselves a reliable source. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:46, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back: Common Sense Media gives AllSides high marks, writing that the
news analysis site attempts to offer a thorough assessment of recent media coverage -- and essentially succeeds at that goal
and thatGenerally, AllSides does a stellar job of breaking issues down
. CSM also notes some limitations of the methodology (the site's analysis solely involves online reporting, not broadcast or other print coverage
). Deseret News's executive editor also appears to like the site's methodology. Several experts interviewed by Poynter gives the media bias rating methodology high marks. — Mhawk10 (talk) 16:41, 11 March 2022 (UTC)- Thank you for the links. I'm not sure how much any of them demonstrate the necessary reputation for fact checking and accuracy. I'm not sure if we should even consider any of them other than the Poynter piece. --Hipal (talk) 17:28, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- Well, Global News describes it as a
fact-checking website
that is recommended by the experts they interviewed. As I note in my !vote in the discussion section above, AllSides has a partnership with Christian Science Monitor, which has a stellar reputation for its reporting. USA Today also uses the website as a source in its own fact checks (1 2) for the explicit purpose of labeling the political lean of media outlets. — Mhawk10 (talk) 17:51, 11 March 2022 (UTC)- Isn't Common Sense Media a paternalistic content rating agency? I don't think they're a WP:RS. Likewise CSM *used* to have a stellar reputation, they're so-so these days like with Deseret their links to a fringe religious sect have gotten more problematic. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:57, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- Per WP:RSP, Common Sense Media is generally reliable in the area of its reviews for entertainment sources. Its applicability to other areas has not been the subject of significant discussion, but it looks like a situational source. Christian Science Monitor is WP:GREL on WP:RSP for news and, as far as I am aware, has not seen its reputation change in recent years. Is there reporting from reliable sources that suggest this? Also, Deseret News is WP:GREL on WP:RSP for news, so I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at here. — Mhawk10 (talk) 18:03, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- This is not a review of an entertainment source. Something can be less than stellar and still generally reliable. CSM's commentary has been getting increasingly extreme, for instance these pieces[1][2][3][4]. As Hipal pointed out the only thing we can actually use from what you presented is Poynter and they explicitly endorse All Sides as a *tool* not as a source so that has nothing to do with our discussion here. You also seem to have misstated the consensus on Deseret "The Deseret News is considered generally reliable for local news." not "news" as you said. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:17, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- With respect to Poynter, the only caution that they give is not to use the bias charts that they are discussing as a measure of reliability (centrist news sources are not always higher quality), and state that
Media bias charts with transparent, rigorous methodologies can offer insight into sources’ biases
and that such chartsoffer well-researched appraisals on the bias of certain sources.
I don't really know what to conclude from that except taht they are well-researched and useful when their methodologies are transparent and rigorous; again, that's what a WP:RS is. With respect to Deseret, I don't think that anybody in the previous discussions made a distinction between local news and its news more broadly; it's a regional newspaper that tends to focus on LDS issues and regional topics, but I think that the word "local" in RSP is simply a mis-reading of the three discussions linked that unduly restricts the scope of its reliability. With respect to CS Monitor's opinions being published, I really don't think that we should consider its WP:RSOPINION pieces to be similar to its news coverage. In fact, all of those pieces you've linked are labeled asA Christian Science perspective
, which plainly indicates that the perspective pieces are written from the viewpoint of a particular religious affiliation. The use of the source I linked is to establish that AllSides has a partnership with Christian Science Monitor the magazine—I think it would be silly to paint it as if the partnership were involved in one particular type of clearly labeled religious opinion column. You've also not addressed the coverage in Global News and the WP:USEBYOTHERS by USA Today's fact-checkers. If USA Today's fact-checkers are using the source in a particular way, is that not evidence of reliability for facts? — Mhawk10 (talk) 18:43, 11 March 2022 (UTC)- When you're at the point down the rabbit hole were you're accusing someone of having made a mistaken RSP entry you should probably take a step back. USEBYOTHERS is not a trump card and alone isn't even enough, its just one piece of the puzzle and most of the pieces seem to be missing here. I would also note that for many sources AllSides separates out opinion and news in their rating, they do not do so for CSM. Also AllSides methodology is *not rigorous* its actually rather shit, if you tried to submit a paper to a polisci or media studies journal using their methodology you would be laughed out of academia. We aren't comparing them to other media bias groups (which are mostly unreliable) we're comparing them to actual reliable sources like journal articles. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:55, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- You may think this, but a Routledge-published scholarly book notes that Allsides'
use of multiple modes of analysis strengthens our overall confidence
in their ratings.[1] Hardly seems like this gets you laughed out of academia. — Mhawk10 (talk) 19:09, 11 March 2022 (UTC)- How is that related? They aren't using their methodology and they don't even say its reliable they just say they have some level of confidence in it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:35, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- They are saying that they have enough confidence that the bias ratings are correct to use it as a variable in their analysis. In other words, they're saying that it's reliable enough for bias ratings that they have confidence using it in their analysis, with the confidence being bolstered by the multi-mode analysis that involves editorial oversight, surveying, etc. — Mhawk10 (talk) 22:05, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- What does that mean for us though? We do not do analysis. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 22:14, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- They are saying that they have enough confidence that the bias ratings are correct to use it as a variable in their analysis. In other words, they're saying that it's reliable enough for bias ratings that they have confidence using it in their analysis, with the confidence being bolstered by the multi-mode analysis that involves editorial oversight, surveying, etc. — Mhawk10 (talk) 22:05, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- How is that related? They aren't using their methodology and they don't even say its reliable they just say they have some level of confidence in it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:35, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- You keep claiming that AllSides's methodology is awful, but you have neither explained why in any particular detail nor cited anyone who makes this claim. Do you have anything you can point to in support of your position? —Compassionate727 (T·C) 19:46, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- "In the blind bias survey, which Mastrine called “one of (AllSides’) most robust bias rating methodologies,” readers from the public rate articles for political bias. Two AllSides staffers with different political biases pull articles from the news sites that are being reviewed. AllSides locates these unpaid readers through its newsletter, website, social media account and other marketing tools. The readers, who self-report their political bias after they use a bias rating test provided by the company, only see the article’s text and are not told which outlet published the piece. The data is then normalized to more closely reflect the composure of America across political groupings. AllSides also uses “editorial reviews,” where staff members look directly at a source to contribute to ratings." So just to sum up they take bad data, run it through some opaque normalization algorithm, and then might or might not disregard it based on editorial preferences. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:50, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- I am not sure why you consider the data "bad"; it is entirely normal for survey organizers to solicit participants through their own networks of contacts in addition to the standard "other marketing tools"; in general, participants who are solicited through direct contacts are better than ones solicited via random survey distributors because many of those people are professional survey-takers clicking random responses as quickly as possible because they are being awarded per survey. There is no reason to expect AllSides's contacts to be unusually biased; even if there was, they normalize the results so that the personal bias of, e.g., some right-wing nut who thinks that all media that disagrees with him is far-left propaganda because Ben Shapiro says so doesn't skew the results. As for their "editorial reviews," it has already been noted that AllSides considers a number of other factors, including research by scholars and organizations like Pew as well as their own editors impressions of the source after reading its articles (see the Fox News bias rating for an example of this process), which of course will (and should) affect the final rating. On the whole, "I don't understand what they are doing" by itself doesn't seem like a good reason to reject a source. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 16:56, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- "On the whole, "I don't understand what they are doing" by itself doesn't seem like a good reason to reject a source." if someone ever makes that argument I'l be sure to let them know. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:29, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- I am not sure why you consider the data "bad"; it is entirely normal for survey organizers to solicit participants through their own networks of contacts in addition to the standard "other marketing tools"; in general, participants who are solicited through direct contacts are better than ones solicited via random survey distributors because many of those people are professional survey-takers clicking random responses as quickly as possible because they are being awarded per survey. There is no reason to expect AllSides's contacts to be unusually biased; even if there was, they normalize the results so that the personal bias of, e.g., some right-wing nut who thinks that all media that disagrees with him is far-left propaganda because Ben Shapiro says so doesn't skew the results. As for their "editorial reviews," it has already been noted that AllSides considers a number of other factors, including research by scholars and organizations like Pew as well as their own editors impressions of the source after reading its articles (see the Fox News bias rating for an example of this process), which of course will (and should) affect the final rating. On the whole, "I don't understand what they are doing" by itself doesn't seem like a good reason to reject a source. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 16:56, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
- "In the blind bias survey, which Mastrine called “one of (AllSides’) most robust bias rating methodologies,” readers from the public rate articles for political bias. Two AllSides staffers with different political biases pull articles from the news sites that are being reviewed. AllSides locates these unpaid readers through its newsletter, website, social media account and other marketing tools. The readers, who self-report their political bias after they use a bias rating test provided by the company, only see the article’s text and are not told which outlet published the piece. The data is then normalized to more closely reflect the composure of America across political groupings. AllSides also uses “editorial reviews,” where staff members look directly at a source to contribute to ratings." So just to sum up they take bad data, run it through some opaque normalization algorithm, and then might or might not disregard it based on editorial preferences. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:50, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- You may think this, but a Routledge-published scholarly book notes that Allsides'
- When you're at the point down the rabbit hole were you're accusing someone of having made a mistaken RSP entry you should probably take a step back. USEBYOTHERS is not a trump card and alone isn't even enough, its just one piece of the puzzle and most of the pieces seem to be missing here. I would also note that for many sources AllSides separates out opinion and news in their rating, they do not do so for CSM. Also AllSides methodology is *not rigorous* its actually rather shit, if you tried to submit a paper to a polisci or media studies journal using their methodology you would be laughed out of academia. We aren't comparing them to other media bias groups (which are mostly unreliable) we're comparing them to actual reliable sources like journal articles. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:55, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- With respect to Poynter, the only caution that they give is not to use the bias charts that they are discussing as a measure of reliability (centrist news sources are not always higher quality), and state that
- This is not a review of an entertainment source. Something can be less than stellar and still generally reliable. CSM's commentary has been getting increasingly extreme, for instance these pieces[1][2][3][4]. As Hipal pointed out the only thing we can actually use from what you presented is Poynter and they explicitly endorse All Sides as a *tool* not as a source so that has nothing to do with our discussion here. You also seem to have misstated the consensus on Deseret "The Deseret News is considered generally reliable for local news." not "news" as you said. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:17, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- Per WP:RSP, Common Sense Media is generally reliable in the area of its reviews for entertainment sources. Its applicability to other areas has not been the subject of significant discussion, but it looks like a situational source. Christian Science Monitor is WP:GREL on WP:RSP for news and, as far as I am aware, has not seen its reputation change in recent years. Is there reporting from reliable sources that suggest this? Also, Deseret News is WP:GREL on WP:RSP for news, so I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at here. — Mhawk10 (talk) 18:03, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- Isn't Common Sense Media a paternalistic content rating agency? I don't think they're a WP:RS. Likewise CSM *used* to have a stellar reputation, they're so-so these days like with Deseret their links to a fringe religious sect have gotten more problematic. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:57, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- Well, Global News describes it as a
- Thank you for the links. I'm not sure how much any of them demonstrate the necessary reputation for fact checking and accuracy. I'm not sure if we should even consider any of them other than the Poynter piece. --Hipal (talk) 17:28, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back: Common Sense Media gives AllSides high marks, writing that the
- How would this information be used by Wikipedia? Sources like this I think are useful for RSN discussions but the discussion here suggests we would want to use the ratings of this company in article space. If a RS says "Allsides said X" well fine but if we are editing an article about the WSJ we shouldn't include a sentence like, "Allsides rates the WSJ as X [cite Allsides]". Springee (talk) 16:59, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- Given the past RSN and other discussions, I added it to my list of problematic references in Dec'19, and started actively been removing them around Sep'20. I've found a lot of discussion, but very little attempted use. Generally better sources have been favored. My impression is that where it has been attempted to be used, it is to counter reputable, historic viewpoints. --Hipal (talk) 17:38, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- In articles like The Guardian, The Daily Telegraph, The Independent, The Irish Times, Newsmax, Jacobin (magazine), AlterNet, The Grayzone, etc. we already state the political affiliation of the source in the lead or infobox. This would serve as one reliable source among others that could be used in describing the political leans of publications. — Mhawk10 (talk) 17:40, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- AllSides uses an American political spectrum, it would not be possible to use them as a source for the general leaning of outlets in other countries. You will note that for the foreign sources they do rate they only review their US coverage. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:38, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- Mhawk10, do you agree that CNN and Jacobin occupy the same position in the political spectrum or that CNN is more left-wing than The Guardian? TFD (talk) 23:26, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
- CNN and Jacobin don't occupy the same political ideology; Jacobin is generally to the left of CNN's online news coverage. There is tremendous diversity of thought in the left-wing to far-left; Maoists are not politically the same as Trotskyists, Marxist-Leninists are not the same as hardcore left-liberals, and are Stalinists are not the same as La France Insoumise, which are each rather different that Juche practitioners and the anarcho-syndicalists of the Regional Defense Council of Aragon. Generally, however, the left-right framework would put all of those groups on the left, even though they tend to vociferously disagree. CNN's online U.S. political coverage follows a left-liberal line, while Jacobin follows a (democratic) socialist approach. The two are not the same, but in the context of AMPOL they get thrown in on the left side of the political divide. As for the news coverage, I haven't conducted a systemic review of CNN and The Guardian, but my inclination is that the two share a common left-liberal approach in the types of stories they choose to cover; they're both fairly comparable to Vox. — Mhawk10 (talk) 03:13, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
I just removed this addition as a new editor's only edit. Is is safe to assume WP:ARBAP2 applies to such edits? --Hipal (talk) 17:34, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
- Another one [5], ARBAP2 definitely applies. --Hipal (talk) 19:12, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
- Yeah, it applies, and I agree that both of those are inappropriate uses of the source. Biases should always be attributed, and there's rarely (dare I say never?) any reason to mention them except in a dedicated context. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 00:02, 21 March 2022 (UTC)
References
- ^ Robert E. Gutsche, Jr., ed. (2022). The Future of the Presidency, Journalism, and Democracy: After Trump. Routledge.
RfC: Indeed
Is Indeed a reliable source? I used it once on the Hamburger University page, but the edits were removed per WP:COPYVIO because that page was copyrighted. AKK700 08:01, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Reliable for what purpose? What is the text that is being cited to Indeed... It's a job-search website, so there's probably not a lot of use for it, but it always depends on what text you are citing in Wikipedia. --Jayron32 11:41, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- I would say mostly no. At best it might be a WP:PRIMARY source for what the organization says about itself, but since it exerts no editorial control it is basically WP:ABOUTSELF at best - it's not published for RS purposes. And even within that narrow window I would be cautious about most stuff there, since it's likely to be too self-serving for ABOUTSELF usage. Even basic numbers and figures from there are likely to be selected to try and be appealing to job-seekers. --Aquillion (talk) 19:22, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- Generally unreliable. Indeed is a platform that hosts self-published/user-generated content. If an Indeed page is confirmed in some way to have been published by a company, it can be treated similarly to a page on the company's own website. — Newslinger talk 06:10, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- (Summoned by bot) Generally unreliable: User-generated content is generally reliable (exactly what Newslinger said) — DaxServer (t · m · c) 09:20, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
RfC: Ars Technica's Eric Berger
Which of the following best describes the reliability of Ars Technica's Eric Berger on SpaceX and other space-related articles? CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 07:04, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Added
{{rfc|prop}}
tag. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 13:50, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting
- Option 2: Reliable, but may require further investigation
- Option 3: Unclear or additional considerations apply
- Option 4: Generally unreliable for factual reporting
- Option 5: Publishes false or fabricated information and should be deprecated
Ars Technica's Eric Berger
- Option 1: Generally reliable, like Ars Technica overall per existing consensus. Also the author of a book about the topic with positive reviews in Space.com [6] (calling Berger a "veteran" space reporter), the Financial Times [7], and the NYT [8]. Regards, HaeB (talk) 13:40, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Option 1:' On both counts: Ars Technica is a scrupulously reliable source on technology-related matters, and per the analysis above, Berger appears to be a reliable space-related journalist. Seems fine to me. As an aside, who is questioning the use of Berger's work on Ars Technica? What is their rationale for questioning it? --Jayron32 15:00, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Concerns from the GAR as too interested and too much of an insider? WP:BIASED is obvious, yet not a reliability issue. I'd think WP:Recentism would be the primary concern considering the nature of the reporting and what Berger's audience expects. fiveby(zero) 15:06, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Option 1: with a nod to WP:RECENT and always WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. @Urve: notifying. fiveby(zero) 15:30, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Option 1: As noted above, Ars Technica is about as good a source as we are likely to have for the "technology news" sector. As such, Mr. Berger falls under that umbrella unless and until there's some reason he doesn't--and perhaps I am missing something, but I have seen nothing to that effect. Cheers, all. Dumuzid (talk) 15:09, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Obviously Option 1 Ars Technica is generally reliable for technology news. Hipocrite (talk) 15:55, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Bad RFC, since it seems like this is being asked in order to influence the result of the the GAR, where much more specific questions are raised about Berger which you didn't disclose here (despite, I can only assume, intending to turn around and use the result of an RFC here to try and influence the answer there.) More generally, I tend to get leery when people ask extremely obvious questions here with no context. At a glance, Berger has written extensively about Musk and has spent a great deal of time with him, to the point where he might be considered WP:BIASED. Ars Technica is obviously a WP:RS and there's no reason to doubt Berger's overall reliability but I would be cautious about not giving him excessive weight on this topic as a result. But those aren't reliability problems and I'm concerned that this RFC may be asking an "easy" question which will then get turned around and used as the answer to a "hard" one that wasn't asked, so to speak. --Aquillion (talk) 17:55, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- I don't want to influence on the GAR, and I have stated multiple times elsewhere that I fully support the decision of delisting the article. ([1], [2], [3]) I do think however that I am biased and others should make the decision on whether the source is reliable or not. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 18:08, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- The issue that Aquillion is raising is not one of reliability of the source, but that the additional considerations from context in which you are likely to want to use the source are not being raised as part of the RfC. In the GAR various editors raised concern that Berger is biased towards SpaceX, not necessarily that he was unreliable. Additionally, I don't see any criticism of Ars Technica which would warrant raising a thread. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 18:11, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Well, a lot of other SpaceX and other private space corp articles use Eric Berger as a main source. In my opinion, I do feel that the Eric Berger is reliable on the area of expertise, but given my bias on the topic as well highlighted by other editors I think that having uninvolved editors making judgement would be the best idea. I have no ill-faith intents here – if Eric's unreliable, I just have tossed a good chunk of my hard work away. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 18:18, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- The issue that Aquillion is raising is not one of reliability of the source, but that the additional considerations from context in which you are likely to want to use the source are not being raised as part of the RfC. In the GAR various editors raised concern that Berger is biased towards SpaceX, not necessarily that he was unreliable. Additionally, I don't see any criticism of Ars Technica which would warrant raising a thread. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 18:11, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- I don't want to influence on the GAR, and I have stated multiple times elsewhere that I fully support the decision of delisting the article. ([1], [2], [3]) I do think however that I am biased and others should make the decision on whether the source is reliable or not. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 18:08, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Option 1: (or bad RfC): Thanks for pinging me, Fiveby and Aquillion. Yes, my concerns about Berger's writing were more specific than reliability, but there's no doubt that he reports factual information accurately. But for content, this RfC has no bearing on what I was troubled by: Whether we can report as fact what Berger writes as aspirational. The article said: "When linked together, these facilities act as a production line, making Starship construction quicker". Berger says this is Musk's desire: "Musk wants a linear flow through the tents ...". I think Berger has an interest in reporting on the speculative parts of SpaceX's development operations. If an insider look is just reporting on aspirations for recently-devised manufacturing processes, then even if it's reliable, I fail to see why we should include it. After all, if this information is not reported in other reliable sources (ignoring the source-text incongruity), then is it due to include every new development wish? This is not a matter of reliability but editorial judgment. Urve (talk) 19:34, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Bad RfC No context is given so there is no basis on which to decide. If someone thinks a particular claim is a problem then it should be discussed as RSN was used until editors got it in their heads that every dispute should become a RfC that decided a general reliability question. Springee (talk) 11:07, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
- I agree that an RfC here seems very heavy-handed. Even if someone wishes to get a formal closure for a reliability discussion, an RfC is not requireed for that purpose. One can just post it at WP:ANRFC under "Other types of closing requests". A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 11:27, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 3: With regards to this specific topic the neutrality of Berger is highly questionable, if even debatable. I regularly read his content on Ars Technica, and as others have noted his technical descriptions come off as highly aspirational. It's common to see him reporting SpaceX/Musk talking points as certainties , which in reality frequently never come to pass. In summary, his reporting is faithful on an events and facts level, but highly colored by his connection to Elon Musk and SpaceX. On this particular subject I consider Berger WP:BIASED. Ebolaisariver (talk) 17:37, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 1: Per Jayron32, and Aquillion. Both seem to be fine, and I don't understand any of the context of the question as Aquillion pointed out. Huggums537 (talk) 01:08, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
- Bad RfC Journalists are not experts and therefore the reliability of their writings depends on the publication and the nature of the claim. An article written by an anonymous journalist for the New York Times for example is reliable for news, no matter who wrote it. OTOH, a signed opinion piece by a Times editor is not, per News organizations. TFD (talk) 09:38, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
- Ars Technica is a generally reliable source for news, with a technology and science focus. It is operated by Condé Nast, which owns a number of other generally reliable publications, including GQ, The New Yorker (RSP entry), Pitchfork, Vogue (RSP entry), and Wired (RSP entry). Ars Technica tends to be more in-depth than most technology websites, and falls under option 1. Eric Berger's articles that are published in Ars Technica are also generally reliable (option 1), including his articles on space or SpaceX. The reliability of Berger's articles that are published in other publications would depend on the reliability of those publications, and Berger's self-published articles would be judged by the WP:SPS policy. — Newslinger talk 13:26, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
- This RFC should include
{{rfc|policy}}
and/or{{rfc|sci}}
tags. And to add to the procedural pedantry: I'm not sure why this ever needed to be an RfC; it could have been an normal discussion/question. JBchrch talk 22:20, 3 April 2022 (UTC)- Added
{{rfc|sci}}
. The Wikipedia policies and guidelines RfC category is usually intended for changes to policy/guideline pages. — Newslinger talk 06:04, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- Added
- Option 1 I'd like to offer a different perspective than just parroting that Ars Technica on a whole has been found to be reliable. I've been working specifically with Eric Berger's reporting on Space Launch System, and I've found him to be extremely reliable (alongside e.g. Philip Sloss and Jeff Foust). While finding and checking citations, I've on many occasions compared direct NASA sources to his reporting, and found his summaries to be fair, due, and accurate. Even in the case of controversial issues, such as discussed here and here, looking back with the perspective of two more years of history, his reporting was vindicated and the opposing sources were proven to be too optimistic. So, from my experience on specifically that topic over the course of multiple years, I would say that specifically Eric Berger's reporting for Ars Technica on the topic of spaceflight is generally reliable. On the other hand, I would have to say that per WP:SPS
Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications.
, I do have to disclaim that Eric Berger's Twitter (or other personal social media, separate from Ars Technica) should not be treated as a reliable self-published expert source. On numerous occasions he has tweeted unverified rumors and speculation, presumably too unverifiable to put into an actual Ars Technica article, that was later proven wrong. Leijurv (talk) 01:59, 7 April 2022 (UTC) - Option 1: for Eric Berger. For ArsTechnica, and especially some of its writers who do not cover tech issues, awful and very unreliable and tendentious. You will observe quite a few above also say Ars is good for tech reporting. But for all the Ars reposts from other Condé Nast pubs and some of its in-house writers... Ars is agitprop-level. But Berger tends to stick to tech issues and he himself should be relied upon.XavierItzm (talk) 23:49, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
RFC: Bitter Winter
Which of the following best describes the reliability of Bitter Winter?
- Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting
- Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
- Option 3: Generally unreliable for factual reporting
- Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated as in the 2017 RfC of the Daily Mail
Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 15:29, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: CESNUR is listed as unreliable on WP:RS/P, but there's nothing explicitly noted for the affiliated magazine Bitter Winter, which mainly focuses on oppression in China, and whose reliability may be different from CESNUR itself. From the section for Bitter Winter on CESNUR, I can see it being used by other WP:RS such as Le Monde, The Manila Times, Radio Free Asia, World, and the Department of State. This may call for a different evaluation of reliability than for CESNUR.Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 15:33, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- The US Department of State is an arm of the US government, and would not be a reliable source for anything but the most mundane, uncontroversial facts. Here, we're discussing a publication focused on China. Any statements by the State Department about China have to be viewed as political, and are not necessarily accurate. Radio Free Asia is also an arm of the US government, and per previous discussions at WP:RSN, caution is advised for subjects that the US government could have a political interest in. During the pandemic, for example, RFA has promoted disinformation about the COVID-19 death toll in China, pushing figures that are a factor of 10 (here, 40k or more) to 50 (here, 150k) times higher than scientific estimates (approximately 5k). -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:43, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Thucydides411: I'm not seeing where it says that RFA has promoted disinformation about the COVID-19 death toll in China. Is there a missing link? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:45, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- I don't know what "it" you're referring to, but we've had this discussion a number of times already. You know the articles I'm talking about (and I linked them above). RFA's recent history of pushing disinformation about the COVID-19 death toll in China is absolutely clear. -Thucydides411 (talk) 14:35, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Thucydides411: I'm not seeing where it says that RFA has promoted disinformation about the COVID-19 death toll in China. Is there a missing link? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:45, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- The US Department of State is an arm of the US government, and would not be a reliable source for anything but the most mundane, uncontroversial facts. Here, we're discussing a publication focused on China. Any statements by the State Department about China have to be viewed as political, and are not necessarily accurate. Radio Free Asia is also an arm of the US government, and per previous discussions at WP:RSN, caution is advised for subjects that the US government could have a political interest in. During the pandemic, for example, RFA has promoted disinformation about the COVID-19 death toll in China, pushing figures that are a factor of 10 (here, 40k or more) to 50 (here, 150k) times higher than scientific estimates (approximately 5k). -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:43, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 3 I don't see any evidence that Bitter Winter is necessarily free from the concerns that plague CESNUR as a source of information. This doesn't mean that they aren't working in China and aren't the subject of unethical reprisals by the Chinese government. I don't see their work cited by those sources, I see that those sources are reporting on the basic facts about the source. There's something of a use-mention distinction here; the source is being mentioned and described, but not being used as a source of information by reliable sources. --Jayron32 15:59, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- Upon closer inspection, it seems like you're correct that many of the sources in the article aren't relying on Bitter Winter for information but rather are reporting on Bitter Winter itself. However, it does seem to be the case that some WP:RS do cite Bitter Winter as a source for information, including Radio Free Asia 1 2 and Voice of America 3. Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 22:29, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- Both of which are U.S. Government funded sources, they are generally reliable, but with a caveat, from WP:RSP "Many editors consider that VOA is biased towards the interests of the American government and that its interference is enough to cast doubt on its reliability in some topics, particulary in news related to American foreign policies." for example. For non-politically-charged topics, I'd consider VOA and RFA fine. For one like this, no. --Jayron32 16:13, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
- Upon closer inspection, it seems like you're correct that many of the sources in the article aren't relying on Bitter Winter for information but rather are reporting on Bitter Winter itself. However, it does seem to be the case that some WP:RS do cite Bitter Winter as a source for information, including Radio Free Asia 1 2 and Voice of America 3. Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 22:29, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 1 The source is used by other WP:RS such as Voice of America and Radio Free Asia. There are no known examples of the source spreading misinformation and not correcting it. The only controversy I can see related to the source is a brief spat with ChinaSource that was seemingly resolved somewhat amicably with no conclusive evidence of falsehood being spread by Bitter Winter. Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 13:14, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
- Bad RfC No indication where it's being used on Wikipedia that's causing a dispute. Even if there was, it could go on the relevant talk page. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 13:32, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 3 Looking at Bitter Winter it's clear that as well as being published by CESNUR its editorial staff is drawn from the same group of individuals. A look at some of their content suggests the same distorting advocacy that renders CESNUR unreliable. Cambial — foliar❧ 21:01, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
- From what I can see regarding CESNUR, most of the objections to using CESNUR as a source are based on its stance in favour of new religious movements rather than repeated examples of false content. The main objection is a conflict of interest objection, not a truthfulness one. Given this, since Bitter Winter covers a different subject area—the persecution of religious minorities by the Chinese government, regardless of whether they belong to new religious movements—it may not be subject to the same conflict of interest considerations. Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 14:42, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- I can only assume you’ve misread or misunderstood the objections. The comments above and below, including my own, refer to the problem of the group’s advocacy mission distorting its reporting of the facts. Its desire to achieve its ends frequently takes precedence over accurate and complete reporting, and leads to serious omission, distortion or alteration of the facts. These render it useless as an RS. Cambial — foliar❧ 09:41, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- From what I can see regarding CESNUR, most of the objections to using CESNUR as a source are based on its stance in favour of new religious movements rather than repeated examples of false content. The main objection is a conflict of interest objection, not a truthfulness one. Given this, since Bitter Winter covers a different subject area—the persecution of religious minorities by the Chinese government, regardless of whether they belong to new religious movements—it may not be subject to the same conflict of interest considerations. Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 14:42, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: CESNUR is listed as unreliable on WP:RS/P, but there's nothing explicitly noted for the affiliated magazine Bitter Winter, which mainly focuses on oppression in China, and whose reliability may be different from CESNUR itself. From the section for Bitter Winter on CESNUR, I can see it being used by other WP:RS such as Le Monde, The Manila Times, Radio Free Asia, World, and the Department of State. This may call for a different evaluation of reliability than for CESNUR.Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 15:33, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 2 Insufficient information available to pass judgement. What is the context? · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 09:11, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 3. Not enough indication of any reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, which means we can only go by the reputation of the parent organization... which is terrible. It could perhaps sometimes be used for opinion but even that should be done cautiously for WP:DUE reasons. I don't think being cited by Radio Free Asia and VOA are sufficient in this context for the reasons outlined above - they're WP:BIASED sources with a bias that would specifically push them to rely on weaker sources, so they're not sufficient to overcome the problems with the publisher or the lack of usage outside of that bubble. --Aquillion (talk)
- Option 3. Bitter Winter is the house organ of CESNUR, an activist group working to hold China accountable for human rights violations. Their goal may be worthy, but the publication exists to achieve the larger goal rather than to print the truth. Binksternet (talk) 15:53, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- The consensus for outlets with a similar set of goals (e.g. VoA, RFA) is that they are generally reliable and able to be used, even for coverage on China. I don't see how this is any different. Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 00:02, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- For RFA, the consensus is that it should be treated with caution for any subject that the US government has a political interest in. That makes use of RFA for any China-related subjects highly questionable. Just to illustrate the risks of using RFA for China-related subjects: during the COVID-19 pandemic, RFA has promoted disinformation about the death toll in China (inflating it by a factor of 10 to 50, relative to scientific estimates) which I discussed in a comment above. -Thucydides411 (talk) 14:49, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- The consensus for outlets with a similar set of goals (e.g. VoA, RFA) is that they are generally reliable and able to be used, even for coverage on China. I don't see how this is any different. Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 00:02, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 3 with the note that their research/reporting is very well reported by WP:RS so there will still be a lot of legitimate uses here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:45, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting. It is not as if the Chinese Communist party is a white dove that benevolently oversees the country; Bitter Winter merely chronicles the government's abuses.XavierItzm (talk) 18:30, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- Option 3: No justification or context has been provided why Bitter Winter would be any better than CESNUR. I would put no weight on the usages by VOA & RFA due to the rationale provided by Aquillion. If RS do use them in more than a "According to X, Y happened" I would cite the RS directly. Jumpytoo Talk 22:33, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
Time to revisit CNET
CNET (RSP entry) recently launched a redesign which includes a hideous new logo and an expansion in scope beyond its tech focus to now include personal finance, health and entertainment. Judging by their introduction to the change, it feels like they are going all-in on prioritizing SEO and affiliate links. Already we are seeing articles about credit cards on their front page. Let's not forget that CNET has been acquired by Red Ventures (home to, ahem, this, and many other marketing-oriented sites).
At a minimum, I probably won't trust their articles on topics beyond tech that they have just expanded into, because it takes time to build expertise, and it feels like they are now prioritizing quantity (churnalism) over quality, so I won't hope for improvements in the reliability of their coverage of new topics. Depending on how things go, we may have to downgrade their coverage of tech as well. It's a sad day for tech journalism. feminist (talk) Слава Україні! 06:43, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Many of the articles on the new CNET seem to be mass-produced "5 ways to do X" articles. Articles of this nature may be produced by freelancers or a team that isn't composed of professional journalists. I would agree that reliability should be judged on a case-by-case basis based on the subject matter. In particular, articles on more serious issues, especially those that relate to BLP (e.g. scandals affecting tech companies, controversies relating to particular people in tech) should be scrutinized. Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 10:44, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- In particular, coverage in mass-produced "how to" and "list of cool stuff" articles should be assigned a low weight when it comes to evaluating due weight, since an unlimited number of articles can be cranked out for the least important topics in order to get SEO traffic. Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 10:48, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not really sure I see the issue. Looks to me like CNET pivotted to some sort of everyday-practical-tips publication with a broader scope than just tech. I've read some of their articles on topics that I know something about and didn't spot any big error or problem. I wouldn't cite anything with affiliate links, though. JBchrch talk 18:15, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- At this point I would probably place CNET (RSP entry) on par with Insider (RSP entry) and Vice (RSP entry) in terms of reliability, whereas previously I regarded them as an authoritative publication of news and reviews of consumer electronics. feminist (talk) Слава Україні! 06:19, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
Sport at the Metro
Hi! Per Talk:2022 World Snooker Championship#Metro as a source?, I said I'd open up a conversation here. We have WP:METRO, and it has been discussed a lot (last 2017), but the coverage by the Metro for snooker is done by Phil Haigh, who previously worked at Eurosport and the Guardian (see [theguardian.com/football/2013/feb/01/arsenal-stoke-city-squad-sheets] for an example. What are your thoughts on the coverage of sports from this magazine? The about us page suggests that they have a likely editorial roll for sports. I can't say I've looked into it too much, but said I would start a conversation here. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 15:29, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Have you sought out other sources? Surely, snooker is popular enough that more than one single source covers it sufficiently so we don't have to even worry about carving out exceptions for otherwise unreliable sources? --Jayron32 16:20, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- The suggestion to use Metro was made by HurricaneHiggins. I am waiting for their input after they return next week, to hear what exactly the benefits from using Metro might be. But I would support an exception to WP:METRO for sports. Haigh is a reliable expert, and as far as I can tell, the quality of his work has not suffered since he switched to Metro. There currently are just three sources that make up the vast majority of sources in the Snooker articles (BBC, Eurosport, World Snooker). All of them have their strong and weak sides. There are active discussions about using other sources (not Metro specifically, but things that the three main ones don't cover); most of them run into WP:RS problems. Having a fourth good source would be valuable. Renerpho (talk) 17:03, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- We do have plenty of sources that are unreliable for certain topics, (such as say, politics or science). It's not really a case of "well, there's plenty of other sources, so this one doesn't need to be reliable", we should really focus on whether we trust information from a source for specific topics. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 17:54, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks, all. My rationale is that Phil Haigh is a knowledgeable sports journalist who covers snooker well — with Nick Metcalfe, he is a co-host of the Talking Snooker podcast. Such sources of information — people who know the game inside and out and write well about it — are valuable, because it's been my sense that snooker is nowadays largely ignored in the mainstream press, which focuses mostly on a few big names at the World Championships. I even see glaring errors nowadays in the BBC's coverage. So it's a bit frustrating not to be able to use Haigh's pieces for verification purposes, just because they appear in Metro. HurricaneHiggins (talk) 14:33, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- The suggestion to use Metro was made by HurricaneHiggins. I am waiting for their input after they return next week, to hear what exactly the benefits from using Metro might be. But I would support an exception to WP:METRO for sports. Haigh is a reliable expert, and as far as I can tell, the quality of his work has not suffered since he switched to Metro. There currently are just three sources that make up the vast majority of sources in the Snooker articles (BBC, Eurosport, World Snooker). All of them have their strong and weak sides. There are active discussions about using other sources (not Metro specifically, but things that the three main ones don't cover); most of them run into WP:RS problems. Having a fourth good source would be valuable. Renerpho (talk) 17:03, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
RealClearDefense
RealClearPolitics is listed as yellow at WP:RSP. RealClearDefense has the same owners.
At Sinking of the Moskva we've got this statement sourced to RealClearDefense:
the cruiser was expected to survive several strikes from Neptune missiles (150 kg or 320 lb warhead each) due to its large displacement
If we look at the source to see where the 150 kg number comes from, it says this:
All ship and weapon system characteristics were derived from UNCLASSIFIED sources (i.e., Wikipedia)... According to Wikipedia, the warhead on the Neptune ASCM weighs 150 kilograms or 330 lbs.[9]
This seems to me a violation of WP:CIRCULAR and suggests to me that not only the 150 kg number, but the entire analysis, is suspect. GA-RT-22 (talk) 16:16, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- That seems like straightforward WP:CITOGENESIS, all else aside. Regardless of the quality of a source we can't generally cite them for a specific point of fact that they unambiguously cite solely to Wikipedia itself. --Aquillion (talk) 17:22, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Why would this make the entire analysis suspect? They clearly say "According to Wikipedia" Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:52, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Seems like nothing to see here. Citogenesis is very clearly stated. Curbon7 (talk) 18:49, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- What specifically is being questioned? The weight of the warhead is clearly not acceptable per CITOGENESIS. However, the part about the cruiser being expected to withstand such a strike doesn't appear to come from Wikipedia (based on the arguments above). I suppose it could depend on how the claim is structured. Ship A is expected to withstand Missile B. Missile B happens to have a warhead of 150kg per Wikipedia. In that case the warhead weight is a secondary fact and the truth of the primary claim, Ship A can withstand, isn't dependent on the accuracy of Wikipedia. An alternative claim is Ship A is expected to withstand warheads of at least 200kg; Missile B has a warhead of 150kg thus A should withstand B. In that case the truth of the claim is dependent on the accuracy of Wikipedia and thus would be a kind of citogenesis. Springee (talk) 19:04, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- But the conclusion very clearly does depend on the number. If the number is wrong, so is the conclusion. GA-RT-22 (talk) 19:33, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Do you actually know that? The author could know something about what the missile can/cannot take out based on other information and included the mass as a secondary claim. As a hypothetical, a person might know a WW2 bunker of a specific design was rated to withstand a 250lb aerial bomb [cite army field manual]. They might then note that, per wikipedia a 250lb bomb contained about 125lbs of explosives. So the first claim is not dependent on the second claim. Unless we know the reason for the claim was based on the mass sourced to Wikipedia, we can't say this is citogenesis. Honestly, even if they say it is, there is some additional interpretation here since presumably the logic would be Ship A can withstand a warhead of size B. Per wikipedia the missile warhead is smaller than B. That would be taking facts on Wikipedia and reaching a new conclusion based on their analysis. Not ideal but again, not the same as saying, "Ship A can handle missile B per Wikipedia. Springee (talk) 20:21, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- OK, looking at the source [10], the only part of this that would be citogenesis is if we used this source to say the missile warhead is 150kg. The author does an analysis and uses the mass from Wikipedia for just one part. Their analysis is trying to answer the question, could 1 missile of this type sink the ship. What they found was, assuming the Wikipedia number is correct, it would take 4.6 missiles. Even if the warhead mass is off by a fair margin, his primary conclusion would remain assuming the rest of his analysis is sound. I'm not sure about the Wikipedia source since it was updated this year. However, here is an older source that says the same thing [11]. Springee (talk) 20:32, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- No, wait, that's not true. They cite Wikipedia repeatedly (citations iii through vi are all to Wikipedia), and those citations make up most of the basis of their analysis; in particular, most of the information about the MOSKVA's armaments, especially its SA-N-6 surface-to-air missiles, comes from Wikipedia. I think it is tricky to assess sources that take information from Wikipedia and apply their own analysis to it (it is not pure citogenesis, but the same basic problem applies), but in general we shouldn't be citing an analysis that relies so heavy on Wikipedia. --Aquillion (talk) 20:12, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- It's not classic citogenesis of the "make up a 'fact', put it on Wikipedia, let it propagate" variety, but it does seem to be laundering the numbers. The same basic problem, as you say: information that we shouldn't trust is made to look trustworthy by passing through an intermediary. XOR'easter (talk) 23:38, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- In that case I would suggest looking at the other facts taken from Wikipedia. Are the Wikipedia sources for those claims good? Can they be backed by other sources (as in my example)? Caution should be used if something is sourced to Wikipedia but that doesn't automatically make the analysis bad. I might make a claim based on the ideal gas law and cite conversions from Celsius to Kelvin and the value of the gas constant to Wikipedia. That wouldn't make my analysis fundamentally wrong. If an editor used independent sources to check my conversion/constant then I think we can agree the the use of Wikipedia doesn't undermine the overall result. Remember that many off Wikipedia do find it to be a useful place to gather basic facts, especially if they can see where the facts came from. Because this isn't citogenesis and the figures cited from Wikipedia can be verified (true or false), I think this is a case where the 3rd party's use of Wikipedia shouldn't disqualify (or qualify) the work. Springee (talk) 16:56, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- I don’t see any circularity issue because Wikipedia is not really the source, it’s just the intermediary. The 150kg number appears in WP but it comes from an external source, and since the Neptun is supposed to be a clone of the Russian KH-35 which has an export catalogue that specifies its warhead at 145kg, this number looks plausible. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 02:32, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- No, wait, that's not true. They cite Wikipedia repeatedly (citations iii through vi are all to Wikipedia), and those citations make up most of the basis of their analysis; in particular, most of the information about the MOSKVA's armaments, especially its SA-N-6 surface-to-air missiles, comes from Wikipedia. I think it is tricky to assess sources that take information from Wikipedia and apply their own analysis to it (it is not pure citogenesis, but the same basic problem applies), but in general we shouldn't be citing an analysis that relies so heavy on Wikipedia. --Aquillion (talk) 20:12, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- OK, looking at the source [10], the only part of this that would be citogenesis is if we used this source to say the missile warhead is 150kg. The author does an analysis and uses the mass from Wikipedia for just one part. Their analysis is trying to answer the question, could 1 missile of this type sink the ship. What they found was, assuming the Wikipedia number is correct, it would take 4.6 missiles. Even if the warhead mass is off by a fair margin, his primary conclusion would remain assuming the rest of his analysis is sound. I'm not sure about the Wikipedia source since it was updated this year. However, here is an older source that says the same thing [11]. Springee (talk) 20:32, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Do you actually know that? The author could know something about what the missile can/cannot take out based on other information and included the mass as a secondary claim. As a hypothetical, a person might know a WW2 bunker of a specific design was rated to withstand a 250lb aerial bomb [cite army field manual]. They might then note that, per wikipedia a 250lb bomb contained about 125lbs of explosives. So the first claim is not dependent on the second claim. Unless we know the reason for the claim was based on the mass sourced to Wikipedia, we can't say this is citogenesis. Honestly, even if they say it is, there is some additional interpretation here since presumably the logic would be Ship A can withstand a warhead of size B. Per wikipedia the missile warhead is smaller than B. That would be taking facts on Wikipedia and reaching a new conclusion based on their analysis. Not ideal but again, not the same as saying, "Ship A can handle missile B per Wikipedia. Springee (talk) 20:21, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- But the conclusion very clearly does depend on the number. If the number is wrong, so is the conclusion. GA-RT-22 (talk) 19:33, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Seems a credible author in Anthony Crowder, he has many other works at RCD and with U.S Naval Institute. The ownership mention is irrelevant — RS goes by publisher and author, two things owned by the same person should have different RS evaluations. For example, Rupert Murdoch owns the Wall Street Journal and The Star and Chicago Sun-Times, each of which has different reputations. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 20:23, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- The About page says that
RealClearDefense falls underneath the umbrella of RealClear Media Group's(RCMG) brands, sites that span a spectrum of passions and interests
and lists its history asFounded in 2000 by two news junkies from their Chicago apartment, RealClearPolitics grew out of a passion for combing the internet for the most interesting political stories of the day. Tom Bevan and John McIntyre wanted a site that contained the most pivotal information on the day’s need-to-know issues. It wasn’t long before they discovered they weren’t the only ones with this desire. Today, RealClearPolitics has grown from an intelligent aggregator into a comprehensive media company – RealClear Media Group (RCMG) – encompassing 14 specialty areas of coverage, original reporting from our staff of seasoned reporters, live events, the well-known RCP Poll Average, and original video.
Based on that I would say that RealClear Media Group is RealClearPolitics and that groups under its umbrella are not editorial independent, all falling under its current WP:RSP entry unless we have a reason to think otherwise. This isn't like two unrelated companies who have the same owner; this is more like eg. the Dotdash network of websites, or how Blaze Media also runs BlazeTV and TheBlaze. They're different brandings for the same core organization. --Aquillion (talk) 20:12, 30 April 2022 (UTC)- It's true that different newspapers with the same owner can have different reputations, as can different academic journals from the same publisher. But in the absence of clear indications that different RealClear properties are editorially independent from one another and aren't just multiple websites run out of the same office, I think the WP:RSP evaluation should apply to all of them. XOR'easter (talk) 23:42, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- It appears the author has a clear reputation as an expert and in this case their analysis is based on what appear to be a model accepted by others. In such a case we can rely less on the mixed result for RCP. RCP is currently yellow/no consensus. Many of the arguments against reliability seemed to be focused on the political opinions they were willing to publish. This is not a political article and as others have pointed out, the relationship between RCP and RCD is not clear. Certainly we shouldn't treat an apolitical, technical analysis written by a subject matter expert the same as we would treat their political opinion articles. If editors wish to argue that this information isn't DUE in the parent article, fine. However, to argue that the information isn't accurate seems suspect to me. Springee (talk) 17:07, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- It's true that different newspapers with the same owner can have different reputations, as can different academic journals from the same publisher. But in the absence of clear indications that different RealClear properties are editorially independent from one another and aren't just multiple websites run out of the same office, I think the WP:RSP evaluation should apply to all of them. XOR'easter (talk) 23:42, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- The About page says that
- Don't know when if ever, Murdoch owned the Chicago Sun-Times, but, no, he does not now. It is owned by Chicago Public Media Group, a non-profit. [12] Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:35, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- Oh, I see, Murdoch owned it for 2-years in the 1980s.[13] Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:48, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
Ok, so... we are citing a source that RSP says "should probably only be done with caution, and better yet should be avoided." And using it for an analysis based on numbers that come from Wikipedia. But it's OK because the author has also been published in U.S Naval Institute. Is that right? GA-RT-22 (talk) 20:53, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- No. It is circular sourceing and the work is not RS. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:05, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- Yesish, it is RS but I also note other items in what RSP says. This article is RS for the cite because the author is expert in naval military matters, so the specific factors and directness of his analysis for the item mentioned in what makes the article RS. The wider RSP was about a different publication and topical arena so it seems not very appropriate, but note that Yellow is not just ‘avoid’, it is “may be usable depending on context”, “reliable in certain circumstances”, and “evaluate each use of the source on a case-by-case basis while accounting for specific factors unique to the source in question.” So yellow is saying to consider the specifics and to use it sometimes — and this seems an instance where the specifics say OK. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 01:17, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- It is mostly reliable. The only thing circular here is the weight of the warhead, which the RCD author was entirely open about his source. The piece itself is an independent expert analysis on Moskva's sinking and salvo size, which should be reliable. Vici Vidi (talk) 18:47, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- No, the article is clear that its analysis is entirely based on assumed information; see note ii, where the author says "The assumptions presented here are just that – assumptions. The reader is invited – nay, urged! - to come up with their own assumptions and take the Salvo Equations for a spin themselves!" Such a hypothetical analysis does not rise to the level of a reliable source for a factual event. While I have my doubts about any source affiliated with RealClearPolitics, this article by its own terms does not produce citable information. John M Baker (talk) 21:19, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
Do these sources suffice in arguing that Kuwait is the head of the Persian Gulf?
See [14] where there is an argument as to whether Kuwait should be in the lead on the basis it is the head of the Persian Gulf. Doug Weller talk 09:09, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- No. Looking at a map of today, it might be said that Kuwait is at the head of the Persian Gulf, along with Iraq and Iran. But a solo mention of Kuwait without mentioning the other two would be misleading. Most relevant for an article on Mesopotamia is a map of ancient times. On those maps, Kuwait was not the head nor near the head of the Persian Gulf. That distinction belongs to Iraq and secondarily Iran.Smallchief (talk) 10:36, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Smallchief:. Kuwait is not listed as the sole head of the gulf. The head is written as being:
(present-day Kuwait) and parts of present-day Iran, Syria and Turkey.
. Cheers, --SVTCobra 11:01, 30 April 2022 (UTC)- If the sentence can be read as saying the “head of the gulf” includes part of present day Syria and Turkey then it definitely needs a re-write. Syria and Turkey are definitely not on the gulf.
- No… The intent is to say that ancient Mesopotamia included present-day Iraq - as well as modern Kuwait and parts of Iran, Syria and Turkey. I would remove the “head of the gulf” bit entirely. Blueboar (talk) 12:08, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Smallchief:. Kuwait is not listed as the sole head of the gulf. The head is written as being:
Kyiv Post on Ukrainian Insurgent Army
An editor has just deleted an extensive bibliography because it was somehow tainted by the presence of an item in the Kyiv Post. Obviously this is remarkably excessive, but can some of the people that have been following this board more recently than I have comment on the reliability of the Kyiv Post? I apologize if this request duplicates a previous request of mine. I have urgently overdue RL matters and need to take a break from dealing with this insanity. The article title is Ukrainian Insurgent Army war against Russian occupation. Today. It is also the once and possibly future Ukrainian anti-Soviet armed resistance. Elinruby (talk) 22:54, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- Update As of this writing the bibliography is there, and there are so may reverts and page moves that I can't tell if the person who said it was removed was simply mistaken, or what. I would Still like an opinion on Kyiv Post however, if you please since this seems to be the point of contention. Elinruby (talk) 23:32, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- It's still deleted: @Elinruby: The article from the Kyiv Post by journalist Mark Rachkevych was under "External Links" in the main article. The entire "External Links" section is deleted and so is the article. The stated reason for deleting the article was
"Stop posting non RS’s opinion pieces written by non-historians for some press"
[15]. However, the person who deleted it is mistaken, the Kyiv Post is not "some press." According to wikipedia [16], the Kyiv Post is"the oldest English-language newspaper in Ukraine...commitment to high journalistic standards and ethical practices."
Wikipedia goes on to discuss the journalism awards Kyiv Post has won,"In 2014, the Kyiv Post staff won the University of Missouri Journalism School's prestigious Medal of Honor for Distinguished Service in Journalism. Five Kyiv Post journalists have also won six-month fellowships through the Alfred Friendly Press Partners program administrated by the University of Missouri's School of Journalism."
According to wikipedia, the Kyiv Post is very reputable, even internationally reputable"Kyiv Post is the most-quoted Ukrainian source of news by American and European news organizations and the second-most quoted in Ukraine and Russia, after Russia's Kommersant ... based on citations in Factiva, the Dow Jones research database."
The journalist who wrote that piece is Mark Rachkevych. From his bio [17]"Mark was a reporter and editor for the Kyiv Post from 2006 to 2016 and still contributes as a freelancer. The native Chicagoan has bylines with the Financial Times, Bloomberg News, Associated Press, Ukrainian Weekly, Irish Times, and Ukraine Business Insight, among other publications. He is a former U.S. Peace Corps volunteer, a graduate of St. Norbert College in Wisconsin, and fluent in the Ukrainian and Russian languages."
The whole goal of editing is to make the article better; therefore, I feel "External Links" section and the article should both be reinstated because it seems the editor who deleted it made a mistake. BetsyRMadison (talk) 04:24, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- It's still deleted: @Elinruby: The article from the Kyiv Post by journalist Mark Rachkevych was under "External Links" in the main article. The entire "External Links" section is deleted and so is the article. The stated reason for deleting the article was
- Update As of this writing the bibliography is there, and there are so may reverts and page moves that I can't tell if the person who said it was removed was simply mistaken, or what. I would Still like an opinion on Kyiv Post however, if you please since this seems to be the point of contention. Elinruby (talk) 23:32, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- Question Are you referring to to this particular edit? M.Bitton (talk) 00:40, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- Just a short note about sources expectations in that topic area --> See ArbCom ruling May 9, 2021 [18] The above is not a RS for that particular topic area - GizzyCatBella🍁 01:24, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- First of all, you are an involved editor who has been edit-warring against the article, and not an administrator, so you should not be "enforcing" that decision, especially since you have been misrepresenting it to keep the author of the article from even commenting on your AfD. But AGF, you could possibly be correct. So. To save the other editors from having to wade through the decision, you are referring to this language: "The Arbitration Committee advises that administrators may impose "reliable-source consensus required" as a discretionary sanction on all articles on the topic of Polish history during World War II (1933-45), including the Holocaust in Poland. On articles where "reliable-source consensus required" is in effect, when a source that is not a high quality source (an article in a peer-reviewed scholarly journal, an academically focused book by a reputable publisher, and/or an article published by a reputable institution) is added and subsequently challenged by reversion, no editor may reinstate the source without first obtaining consensus on the talk page of the article in question or consensus about the reliability of the source in a discussion at the Reliable Sources Noticeboard."
- So it is, then, your contention that the Kyiv Post is not a "high-quality source" because it is not "reputable"? Welp. I am here to ask for an opinion about that, as the decision specifically provides. It doesn't really matter much, since the article only appears in the article in the bibliography, but I suspect you are in error about that. Elinruby (talk) 02:26, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Elinruby: I don't see the Kyiv Post mentioned in the link GizzyCat gave so I asked GCB to give the quote that mentions Kyiv Post. Not sure that will happen. If GizzyCat (who is the editor who placed the AFD to Delete the article) wants to unilaterally mandate we get consensus on on Kyiv Post as a Reliable Source - then, after reading the wikipedia page on Kyiv Post and the journalism awards they've won (here [19]), my vote is Yes, they are an RS.
We are all volunteers here. The whole goal is to make the article better, and I feel that one person keeps throwing unnecessary obstacles in the way of other editors who are working very hard trying to get that done. BetsyRMadison (talk) 04:37, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Elinruby: I don't see the Kyiv Post mentioned in the link GizzyCat gave so I asked GCB to give the quote that mentions Kyiv Post. Not sure that will happen. If GizzyCat (who is the editor who placed the AFD to Delete the article) wants to unilaterally mandate we get consensus on on Kyiv Post as a Reliable Source - then, after reading the wikipedia page on Kyiv Post and the journalism awards they've won (here [19]), my vote is Yes, they are an RS.
- @GizzyCatBella: I don't see the Kyiv Post mentioned in the link you gave. Can you please give the exact quote that mentions "Kyiv Post"? Thanks BetsyRMadison (talk) 03:59, 1 May 2022 (UTC)h
- I think they are saying it isn't a reputable institution. But I am not the GizzyCatBella whisperer. However, it isn't a book and it isn't peer-reviewed journal, so assuming she is making sense, that seems to be what she is saying. It's a mainstream news paper afaik. Pretty sure it's quoted extensively at 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, but I too am capable of error. Elinruby (talk) 04:54, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Elinruby: According to wikipedia, the Kyiv Post is very reputable. In fact, wiki says the Kyiv Post is 'internally reputable,'
"Kyiv Post is the most-quoted Ukrainian source of news by American and European news organizations and the second-most quoted in Ukraine and Russia, after Russia's Kommersant ... based on citations in Factiva, the Dow Jones research database."
. GizzyCat is simply wrong to claim otherwise. BetsyRMadison (talk) 05:00, 1 May 2022 (UTC)- @Elinruby: P.S. The rule says [20]
"Administrators may impose "reliable-source consensus required" as a discretionary sanction on all articles on the topic of Polish history during World War II (1933-45), including the Holocaust in Poland."
GizzyCat is not an administrator so GizzyCat can't impose it. Also, the rules says, "may impose" not "must impose." The rule goes on to say,"On articles where "reliable-source consensus required" is in effect, when a source that is not a high quality source (an article in a peer-reviewed scholarly journals, an academically focused book by a reputable publisher, and/or an article published by a reputable institution) is added and subsequently challenged by reversion, no editor may reinstate the source without first obtaining consensus."
. According to wikipedia, the Kyiv Post is a "reputable institution." And no administrator has imposed it.- To summarize: GizzyCat is not an administrator; GizzyCat has no authority to impose it; No administrator has imposed it; An administer may (but not must) impose it; According to wiki Kyiv Post is a reputable institution. There's no reason and no rationale for this brand new obstacle, that the editor who placed the AFD to Delete the article, is unjustly tossing out on other volunteer editors who are working very hard to improve the article.
- Pretty sure I asked here before about Kyiv Post and a word that figured in the replies was "gold-standard" but I have been asked to document so many ridiculous things in this AfD (Stalinism was "dandy"???) that it's starting to blur. I am hoping that somebody who knows off the top of their head will come through here and reply. Otherwise, there are multiple mentions in the archives, which are not user-friendly, as each result takes you to about twenty specific posts, some of them lengthy, and combing and weighing these could take days. So let's hush now and other people talk. The longer and more contentious-looking this post gets, the less likely it is someone will answer, since most people who answer here came in with their own problems, as I did below for HouseOfChange Elinruby (talk) 06:02, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- To summarize: GizzyCat is not an administrator; GizzyCat has no authority to impose it; No administrator has imposed it; An administer may (but not must) impose it; According to wiki Kyiv Post is a reputable institution. There's no reason and no rationale for this brand new obstacle, that the editor who placed the AFD to Delete the article, is unjustly tossing out on other volunteer editors who are working very hard to improve the article.
- @Elinruby: P.S. The rule says [20]
- @Elinruby: According to wikipedia, the Kyiv Post is very reputable. In fact, wiki says the Kyiv Post is 'internally reputable,'
- I think they are saying it isn't a reputable institution. But I am not the GizzyCatBella whisperer. However, it isn't a book and it isn't peer-reviewed journal, so assuming she is making sense, that seems to be what she is saying. It's a mainstream news paper afaik. Pretty sure it's quoted extensively at 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, but I too am capable of error. Elinruby (talk) 04:54, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- Just a short note about sources expectations in that topic area --> See ArbCom ruling May 9, 2021 [18] The above is not a RS for that particular topic area - GizzyCatBella🍁 01:24, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- I repeat the question Are you referring to this particular edit? M.Bitton (talk) 14:27, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
Clarification of WP:ABOUTSELF rule 2
Let's say I add the following content to Ava Max#Personal life:
References
- ^ Koci, Ava (September 17, 2017). "Ava Koci was with Henry Walter in San Francisco, California". Facebook. Retrieved May 1, 2022.
3 years with the love of my life. I couldn't have asked for a better partner in this life.
The source is a Facebook post self-published by Ava Max (also known as Ava Koci), the subject of the Wikipedia article. Would this material involve claims about third parties
under WP:ABOUTSELF #2 and therefore be unusable as a source?
For that matter, the same content can be supported by this article from Purepeople.com (Puremédias), but it does not look like a reliable source for a BLP because the author seems to be simply extrapolating from a paparazzi photo. Our Ava Max article covers her professional relationship with Cirkut (real name Henry Walter) backed by multiple reliable sources (including [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26]) but none appear to mention a personal relationship between the two people. So, is the Facebook post usable as a source for this addition? feminist (talk) Слава Україні! 10:39, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- Personally, I would go with a strict reading of it does not involve claims about third parties (WP:BLPSELFPUB says much the same thing) and stop at As of 2017, Max was in a relationship. The spirit of WP:BLP is "when in doubt, exclude." We can wait for a stronger source. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:16, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- Good advice. -- Otr500 (talk) 00:31, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- Good suggestion. Done. feminist (talk) Слава Україні! 03:55, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
Okdiario
Should Okdiario (headed by Eduardo Inda) be deprecated as a source? It has not only been accused of being a manipulator and spreader of hoaxes, but it has also been sentenced several times by the Spanish justice. --KajenCAT (talk) 20:24, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
Some examples:
- The most important Consumer rights NGO of Spain, Facua: [27] [28] [29] [30][31]
- Greenpeace (points out as one of the main spreaders of hoaxes in the media) [32]
- Others: [33][34][35] [36][37][38]
--KajenCAT (talk) 20:28, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
Comments
- I am somewhat confused on a quick look. I randomly checked two of the sources shown. The Greenpeace link seems to be about WhatsApp. Are the two related? One Facua source is titled, "11,000 euros: After FACUA's complaint, they initiate a sanctioning process against Okdiario for a serious infraction". The infraction: "Eduardo Inda's newspaper violates consumer protection legislation by offering subscriptions with prices that do not include taxes." In my apparent ignorance to some point, I can not see a connection between these and the site being a "manipulator and spreader of hoaxes". I did see one but all news source have likely been guilty of printing things not exactly true, or even totally false.
- The link states the source is a Spanish digital newspaper aligned with neoliberalism and Spanish nationalism. It is my opinion, at first glance, that editors should not be limited to sources that are aligned to a particular way or idea. The entire concept of balance, due weight, and neutrality depends on being able to view different points of view. It is reported that "Its editorial line is part of the political spectrum of the liberal ideology and the unity of Spain", which is in line with the article. It is expedient to take note of this. If a source is used to push a particular article in a direction not in line with Wikipedia policies and guidelines we can act to protect this encyclopedia.
Rape as "weapon of war" in War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine
Discussion is ongoing at Talk:War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. Please direct your comments there. Thanks. --Jayron32 13:01, 4 May 2022 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- There's a body of literature, also statements by the President of the Security Council (32/2002) and resolutions of the UN Security Council (1820/2008), on the use of rape as an instrument of war - sexual violence "as a strategic and tactical weapon". The UN has developed a definition (here), which is also employed by the ICRC and other human rights organisations. Basically two elements are necessary: "systematic practice" and "chain of command". Chain of command doesn't necessarily mean an overt order to rape, but requires evidence that sexual violence is neither condemned nor punished by military hierarchy and is in line with the overall objectives of the group. Sexual violence as a weapon of war is something quite specific, and is different both from rape facilitated by war and from rape as a means of ill-treatment and torture.
- In 2014-2016, sexual violence was quite widespread in the Russo-Ukrainian War, but the OHCHR, in a report on Conflict-Related Sexual Violence in Ukraine 14 March 2014 to 31 January 2017 concluded that "there are no grounds to believe that sexual violence has been used for strategic or tactical ends by Government forces or the armed groups in the eastern regions of Ukraine".
- The lead section of War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine states that
Human rights organizations have also accused Russian troops of using mass rape as a "weapon of war"
. Two sources are quoted: an article by CNN and an article by The Guardian. - The article by CNN has a wrong title, as the rights groups interviewed by CNN apparently did not allege that Russian troops use rape as an "instrument of war". That claim, "using rape and other sexual offenses as weapons of war", was made by "Ukrainian officials", the article says, and possibly by a psychologist, Vasylisa Levchenko, who said to CNN "The weapon [rape] is a demonstration of complete contempt for the [Ukrainian] people".
- The article by The Guardian says that " Women across Ukraine are grappling with the threat of rape as a weapon of war", and says that "They ["Organisations such as La Strada Ukraine and a countrywide network called Feminist Workshop"] fear … that the trauma caused by the use of rape as a military tactic will lead to deep suffering across Ukrainian society". The claim is not substantiated, and it is not even clear if the source is La Strada, the Feminist Workshop or the journalist who signed the article. It's possible that the use of "rape as a weapon of war" here is vague and evocative, meaning that rape is related to conflict, widespread and harmful as a weapon; it i not sure whether it implies anything substantial about the existence of a deliberate strategy of the Russian authorities and armed forces.
- If and when a reliable source such as the UN Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International or also a piece of independent investigative journalism will claim that rape is being used "as a weapon", i.e. for military ends, that information will be notable and verifiable enough to belong to the lead of War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 00:34, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- All these sources are RS (and no one ever said they are not RS), but your question is not about sources, but about something else. You are posting in a wrong place. My very best wishes (talk) 15:50, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- you may be right and in that case I apologise. I had understood that this noticeboard deals with issues like "does this source X support this statement Y?", where X could also be a specific article from a generally reliable source. Am I wrong? Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:20, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- Gitz6666 perhaps it would be better suited for WP:NPOVN if the question is "How can we summarize what the sources say on the matter of rape during the Russian invasion of Ukraine in a neutral manner?" — Ixtal ( T / C ) ⁂ Join WP:FINANCE! 18:03, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you Ixtal for the suggestion. Actually the point I was trying to make was more about accuracy then neutrality: I think we are misunderstanding what the interviewed people and organisation meant to say when they spoke about rape being used as a weapon of war. They meant it is massive and widespread and odious, but they didn't imply anything (I guess) about a deliberate strategy of using rape for military ends; and if they were implying this, then (I argue) it's not notable, it's just an unsupported view. I'm afraid we are misleading our readers and trivializing an important point here. Thank you anyway, and sorry for having brought this to the wrong place. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:51, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- At any rate there's a thread on the talk page where anyone can express their views on the topic: Talk:War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#Rape_as_a_"weapon_of_war" Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:54, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you Ixtal for the suggestion. Actually the point I was trying to make was more about accuracy then neutrality: I think we are misunderstanding what the interviewed people and organisation meant to say when they spoke about rape being used as a weapon of war. They meant it is massive and widespread and odious, but they didn't imply anything (I guess) about a deliberate strategy of using rape for military ends; and if they were implying this, then (I argue) it's not notable, it's just an unsupported view. I'm afraid we are misleading our readers and trivializing an important point here. Thank you anyway, and sorry for having brought this to the wrong place. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:51, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- Gitz6666 perhaps it would be better suited for WP:NPOVN if the question is "How can we summarize what the sources say on the matter of rape during the Russian invasion of Ukraine in a neutral manner?" — Ixtal ( T / C ) ⁂ Join WP:FINANCE! 18:03, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- you may be right and in that case I apologise. I had understood that this noticeboard deals with issues like "does this source X support this statement Y?", where X could also be a specific article from a generally reliable source. Am I wrong? Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:20, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- All these sources are RS (and no one ever said they are not RS), but your question is not about sources, but about something else. You are posting in a wrong place. My very best wishes (talk) 15:50, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- User Gitz is spot-on. -- Otr500 (talk) 03:51, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- As the discussion on the talk page is still ongoing (here above the link) may I suggest all interested editors to post their comments there? @Ixtal@My very best wishes@Otr500. The present discussion, posted in the wrong place, is closed. Again, apologises for my clumsiness. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 09:12, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
Is the CiA a reliable source for usage of surnames?
[39] for the article "Singh". Written by the CIA in 1964. The information looks to be quite accurate and corroborated with other sources, the reason why I want to use it is because it mentions usage among the tribal population, which I could not find another source for. Please excuse the mistake in the title of the section. Gurkhazmi (talk) 14:16, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- I think it's a reliable source, but I don't love it--in an ideal world you could bolster it with something else, but for fairly minor details, it would pass muster for me. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 14:22, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with Dumuzid - I wouldn't categorize it as unreliable for something like this. ThadeusOfNazerethTalk to Me! 14:56, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- Agree that for "something like this", not likely controversial, the source is not "unreliable", just not stellar. Also agree that when possible
"you could bolster it with something else". -- Otr500 (talk) 03:48, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
UKGameshows.com for reviews and opinions
I have created a few articles on trivial new British game shows (Sitting on a Fortune, Moneyball (game show)) and on each of them the reference from this website was removed by User:Neverrainy, first with no explanation and later with the explanation that this website is an unreliable Wiki. [40]
The website does have some parts that are Wiki and are open for volunteer editing, but these particular pages referenced are not, they are clearly attributed to a real person called Iain Weaver. So the argument that an opinion piece is "not reliable" is a non-starter.
I have never used this website to source "facts" but for clearly attributed opinions. We are talking about reviews for game shows, not for ballet or symphony. The other sources, which were not removed by this user, included one which was just reporting what Twitter users said about the show. So anonymous Twitter users are fine for opinions, but not a person on a specialist website.
So in short, are the authored pages of this specialist site reliable for opinion? I don't think the bar is particularly high for passing judgement on a gameshow, even the TV critics for most major newspapers are hardly the Robert Christgaus of the sector. Unknown Temptation (talk) 17:41, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- In my opinion: Of course, it is reliable. As a TV critic since around 2001, also having guest critics, the person gives his perspective that removes any doubt about promotional or advertising issues. Using the source on Moneyball (game show) gives negative reviews as well as some praise so should be looked at as very reliable for reviews or "opinion"[s] in the subjects field. -- Otr500 (talk) 03:43, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- Attributed opinions are not really subject to reliability tests, unless we believe that the website is not reliable for reporting the opinion of the person who is writing the website. This is a WP:UNDUE matter not a WP:RS matter. Discussions about the relevance of reviews are based on the reputation of the reviewer, but in cases like this, it is not a reliability issue because the website does reliably verify what the website itself says. WP:RSOPINION clearly states "Some sources may be considered reliable for statements as to their author's opinion, but not for statements asserted as fact... When using them, it is best to clearly attribute the opinions in the text to the author and make it clear to the readers that they are reading an opinion." --Jayron32 12:48, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- Seems OK for the attributed opinion, though I do not care for much content about opinions. The DUE question is harder here, as much of what little coverage there is will include opinion of some person. But I have to think WP:WEIGHT of this UKGameshows.com is at least more than Liverpool Echo, so it would be more DUE than at least that one of the other cites. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 13:20, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
Is Film Threat still reliable?
At a recent AfD someone brought up whether Film Threat is still a reliable source. In the past it absolutely has been per discussion such as this, however recently someone brought up that the site offers paid reviews and other forms of promotion. Basically everything on their site can be paid for.
I was trying to see if there was a way to discern sponsored posts from non-paid ones, but I can't find where any of this is marked anywhere. So we have no way of knowing if a review is paid or not, or if the free reviews are ever completed or made as visible as the paid ones.
This is frustrating to me because I've used the site in the past to justify keeping films. There's even an article I'm working on where this review would really help towards notability. But them charging for reviews does make it questionable and since concerns were brought up at AfD, I thought it would be good to discuss it once more.
So the question here is this: Does the fact that they charge for marketing and reviews now invalidate this as a source? ReaderofthePack(formerly Tokyogirl79) (。◕‿◕。) 20:31, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- If "Basically everything on their site can be paid for.", is true, or partially true sometimes, then I would think that it cannot be trusted. -- Otr500 (talk) 02:06, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- Addition: To me a paid site means someone will surely get what they paid for, that will of course not be negative, so only advertisement and promotion. One will never hear anything negative on those infomercials which seems to be what the site may have become. -- Otr500 (talk) 03:30, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- It is clear that not all content on Film Threat is promotional; for example, plenty of the film reviews are negative. They even publish non-promotional (if anonymously written) reviews of reviewers. I believe the site can, at present, be used for sourced material, at least on a case-by-case, editors-can-recognize-promotion-when-we-read-it basis. If going forward the site's quality deteriorates, then of course we should revisit the issue. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 13:50, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- What bothers me is that they don't clearly mark their paid reviews. If they did that, then it would make me feel much better. Pay to play also tends to invalidate a lot of sources. This one just doesn't entirely sit well with me. I'll admit that it'd benefit me more to have it remain reliable since I could save and create more articles that way, but on the other hand I don't want to keep it if it's become more or less a promotional outlet. ReaderofthePack(formerly Tokyogirl79) (。◕‿◕。) 12:54, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Perhaps this option would make you more comfortable: stop using the site's content that is dated/produced after a certain date? I have no idea what that date is, but in the spirit of babies and bath water, if you can determine when the site began publishing paid content, that would be the date. I do not see how it benefits the encyclopedia to eliminate clearly reliable content (for example, critical film reviews) produced at an earlier date simply because more recent content might be illegitimate. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 15:12, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm sure I've seen something similar discussed before. I tried to look and found Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 190#Kirkus Reviews and Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 180#Kirkus Reviews although I'm not sure if that was it. In that case, it seems the site did give an indication what type of review it was albeit in a way many may not notice or understand. There was agreement in that case that reviews from before the practice started as definitely fine. It's noted in one of those threads that a common practice for such paid review sites is that although they may not guarantee a good review, the customer can normally choose whether the review will be published. Nil Einne (talk) 15:57, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
Ovicio.com
This is a Portuguese site that covers video games, films and comics. I recently bumped into it when searching for some resources Is anyone here able to determine the reliability of this site?
I've brought this up elsewhere, but there was no conclusion. But going by this archived version, it appears to be owned by R7.com, or at least was at one time. Though, if you do searches on R7, results from Ovicio.com still pop up, so I don't know. MoonJet (talk) 05:36, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
Wikitubia's Interviews
The wiki on fandom.com called 'Wikitubia' has interviewed several YouTubers, with the staff of the wiki only being allowed to conduct interviews. Should these interviews be considered as reliable sources for articles? Spiderwinebottle (talk) 15:37, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- Could possibly have some WP:BLPSELFPUB/WP:ABOUTSELF use, say place of birth, year of birth, etc. WP:ELMAYBE, maybe. Does not help an argument for WP:N. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:00, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- Unless the YouTuber has independently confirmed her participation in the Wikitubia interview, I'd say no. Based on the Wikitubia Staff page, it seems to me that Wikitubia administrators are equivalent to Wikipedia administrators, and we all know that content written by Wikipedia administrators is not RS. feminist (talk) Слава Україні! 04:26, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- My mistake, I assumed this was YT-video interviews, but stuff like [41] (TheOdd1sOut) just seems like WP:USERG text. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:04, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
CV for academic qualifications of a historian
I will appreciate your views at a discussion on whether a CV can be used to source educational qualifications (graduation, post-graduation, PhD, and post-doctoral affiliations) of a tenured Professor of History at Rutgers University. Thanks, TrangaBellam (talk) 17:59, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- If the CV is published by the person behind it, then yes you can use it if it isn't too unusual, it is policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Using_the_subject_as_a_self-published_source Vici Vidi (talk) 05:46, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- To clarify, CV's are reliable for including banal biographical information about a person, such as educational institutions they attended, or jobs they held, or whatever. CV's should not be used for highly contentious material, and cannot be used for establishing notability per WP:GNG. --Jayron32 15:07, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
The Kai Gohar Nama by Col. Zaroor Akhtar
Doing some cleaning up on various South Asia related articles have come across an article (Sultan Sarang Khan) which uses the above source. It doesn’t look to be academically published and neither the author seem to be anyone noticeable. May be a self-published source which isn’t ideal. Wanted to get some more opinions. Thanks. RuudVanClerk (talk) 09:09, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Based on few clues from Google Books (eg. [42] ), it may be some sort of edition of an old book from the 18th century about history and achievements of the Gakhar chiefs, compiled in verse. But this is only my guess. Pavlor (talk) 10:46, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Not reliable. No evidence of peer-review etc. TrangaBellam (talk) 15:15, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
diretta.it
Is this site reliable? This is site containing stats about sports player from every sport written in Italian. Dr Salvus 12:45, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
Expert on far-right published in The Conversation
Consensus has established that subject-matter experts published by The Conversation are generally reliable sources. At Turning Point UK, the use of an article from Chris Allen (wiki), an Associate Professor at the University of Leicester's Centre for Hate Studies, has been disputed as only usable as opinion. What are people's views on whether the article can be used as a reliable source? Cambial — foliar❧ 14:54, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- I think in general it is never a bad idea to cite singular analysis with attribution. Which is to say; whether we call it opinion or expert analysis, or whatever, if we are basing something we are writing in Wikipedia on a single voice, we explicitly attribute that single voice in the Wikipedia text, "According to so-and-so..." is good language to use here. This is especially true about the sort of analysis this article represents; the article is primarily about how to characterize and categorize TPUK as an organization; an inherently fuzzy process. If multiple reliable sources speak of an organization consistently in a certain manner, then it is okay to speak in Wikipedia's voice for such a characterization; because it is widespread and common. When we are citing a singular voice on any topic, and where such voice presents a characterization which is not present in the preponderance of reliable, general-use sources, it is always better to attribute that author directly. That we include it at all is dependent on the author being a recognized subject-matter expert. That we include it in Wikipedia's voice would imply widespread, general use sources frequently do the same in their own voice as well. We have the former situation (a subject matter expert), but not necessarily the latter (widespread use of the characterization by other general-use sources). --Jayron32 15:05, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Which part of it, and as a source for what? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:07, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- @ScottishFinnishRadish: The existing content it supports is "The group does not fit traditional conceptions of the far right." This seems to be relatively uncontroversial statement about how its expressed views or purposes align, or don't align, with pre-existing similar groups. Cambial — foliar❧ 15:37, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- I've been active over at the Turning Point UK page. My position, insofar as my contributions prior to this discussion opening, largely concur with those of Jayron. While Chris Allen is an expert in the topic, it still remains unclear as to whether his opinion represents consensus within political science, or is just his opinion. As such I think we should err on the side of caution and attribute that to Chris until it can be proven that the description, that the group does not fit within the standard descriptions of the far-right, has widespread support. Sideswipe9th (talk) 15:42, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
RFC concerning New Eastern Outlook
Which of the following best describes the reliability of New Eastern Outlook ?
- Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting
- Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
- Option 3: Generally unreliable for factual reporting
- Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be added to Wikipedia:Deprecated sources? HouseOfChange (talk) 15:25, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Comment none of the above, as the reliability of a source depends on context. The claims attributed to the DOS and the USDT don't belong in the lead section of the article. M.Bitton (talk) 15:42, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- This looks like a whole thing. Is there an article or talk page or some such that people should refer to for context? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:47, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- would like some more context but generally NEO is Option 4, its an information operations platform which masquerades as an academic journal (much like say Mankind Quarterly but run by a state rather than a private group). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:51, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- @ScottishFinnishRadish: this is my third effort, and if I screwed up the process here also, I apologize! Here are four relevant bullet points:
- 2019 discussion on deprecating "Sites identified by reputable sources as state-sponsored fake news / disinformation".
- Article New Eastern Outlook cites multiple RS identifying it as a "state-sponsored fake news / disinformation" website.
- As of the 2019 discussion, the status of NEO as state-sponsored fake news was less clear than it is in 2022. (I just created article on NEO from a re-direct a few days ago.)
- Lots more context in Archive 375
- I hope this is helpful and not too much of a wall of text. HouseOfChange (talk) 16:12, 6 May 2022 (UTC)