Welcome to the reliable sources noticeboard. This page is for posting questions regarding whether particular sources are reliable in context. | ||||||
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RfC: Indeed
Is Indeed a reliable source? I used it once on the Hamburger University page, but the edits were removed per WP:COPYVIO because that page was copyrighted. AKK700 08:01, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- Reliable for what purpose? What is the text that is being cited to Indeed... It's a job-search website, so there's probably not a lot of use for it, but it always depends on what text you are citing in Wikipedia. --Jayron32 11:41, 28 March 2022 (UTC)
- I would say mostly no. At best it might be a WP:PRIMARY source for what the organization says about itself, but since it exerts no editorial control it is basically WP:ABOUTSELF at best - it's not published for RS purposes. And even within that narrow window I would be cautious about most stuff there, since it's likely to be too self-serving for ABOUTSELF usage. Even basic numbers and figures from there are likely to be selected to try and be appealing to job-seekers. --Aquillion (talk) 19:22, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- Generally unreliable. Indeed is a platform that hosts self-published/user-generated content. If an Indeed page is confirmed in some way to have been published by a company, it can be treated similarly to a page on the company's own website. — Newslinger talk 06:10, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- (Summoned by bot) Generally unreliable: User-generated content is generally reliable (exactly what Newslinger said) — DaxServer (t · m · c) 09:20, 6 April 2022 (UTC)
RfC: Ars Technica's Eric Berger
- The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Which of the following best describes the reliability of Ars Technica's Eric Berger on SpaceX and other space-related articles? CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 07:04, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Added
{{rfc|prop}}
tag. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 13:50, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting
- Option 2: Reliable, but may require further investigation
- Option 3: Unclear or additional considerations apply
- Option 4: Generally unreliable for factual reporting
- Option 5: Publishes false or fabricated information and should be deprecated
Ars Technica's Eric Berger
- Option 1: Generally reliable, like Ars Technica overall per existing consensus. Also the author of a book about the topic with positive reviews in Space.com [1] (calling Berger a "veteran" space reporter), the Financial Times [2], and the NYT [3]. Regards, HaeB (talk) 13:40, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Option 1:' On both counts: Ars Technica is a scrupulously reliable source on technology-related matters, and per the analysis above, Berger appears to be a reliable space-related journalist. Seems fine to me. As an aside, who is questioning the use of Berger's work on Ars Technica? What is their rationale for questioning it? --Jayron32 15:00, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Concerns from the GAR as too interested and too much of an insider? WP:BIASED is obvious, yet not a reliability issue. I'd think WP:Recentism would be the primary concern considering the nature of the reporting and what Berger's audience expects. fiveby(zero) 15:06, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Option 1: with a nod to WP:RECENT and always WP:CONTEXTMATTERS. @Urve: notifying. fiveby(zero) 15:30, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Option 1: As noted above, Ars Technica is about as good a source as we are likely to have for the "technology news" sector. As such, Mr. Berger falls under that umbrella unless and until there's some reason he doesn't--and perhaps I am missing something, but I have seen nothing to that effect. Cheers, all. Dumuzid (talk) 15:09, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Obviously Option 1 Ars Technica is generally reliable for technology news. Hipocrite (talk) 15:55, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Bad RFC, since it seems like this is being asked in order to influence the result of the the GAR, where much more specific questions are raised about Berger which you didn't disclose here (despite, I can only assume, intending to turn around and use the result of an RFC here to try and influence the answer there.) More generally, I tend to get leery when people ask extremely obvious questions here with no context. At a glance, Berger has written extensively about Musk and has spent a great deal of time with him, to the point where he might be considered WP:BIASED. Ars Technica is obviously a WP:RS and there's no reason to doubt Berger's overall reliability but I would be cautious about not giving him excessive weight on this topic as a result. But those aren't reliability problems and I'm concerned that this RFC may be asking an "easy" question which will then get turned around and used as the answer to a "hard" one that wasn't asked, so to speak. --Aquillion (talk) 17:55, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- I don't want to influence on the GAR, and I have stated multiple times elsewhere that I fully support the decision of delisting the article. ([1], [2], [3]) I do think however that I am biased and others should make the decision on whether the source is reliable or not. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 18:08, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- The issue that Aquillion is raising is not one of reliability of the source, but that the additional considerations from context in which you are likely to want to use the source are not being raised as part of the RfC. In the GAR various editors raised concern that Berger is biased towards SpaceX, not necessarily that he was unreliable. Additionally, I don't see any criticism of Ars Technica which would warrant raising a thread. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 18:11, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Well, a lot of other SpaceX and other private space corp articles use Eric Berger as a main source. In my opinion, I do feel that the Eric Berger is reliable on the area of expertise, but given my bias on the topic as well highlighted by other editors I think that having uninvolved editors making judgement would be the best idea. I have no ill-faith intents here – if Eric's unreliable, I just have tossed a good chunk of my hard work away. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 18:18, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- The issue that Aquillion is raising is not one of reliability of the source, but that the additional considerations from context in which you are likely to want to use the source are not being raised as part of the RfC. In the GAR various editors raised concern that Berger is biased towards SpaceX, not necessarily that he was unreliable. Additionally, I don't see any criticism of Ars Technica which would warrant raising a thread. A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 18:11, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- I don't want to influence on the GAR, and I have stated multiple times elsewhere that I fully support the decision of delisting the article. ([1], [2], [3]) I do think however that I am biased and others should make the decision on whether the source is reliable or not. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 18:08, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Option 1: (or bad RfC): Thanks for pinging me, Fiveby and Aquillion. Yes, my concerns about Berger's writing were more specific than reliability, but there's no doubt that he reports factual information accurately. But for content, this RfC has no bearing on what I was troubled by: Whether we can report as fact what Berger writes as aspirational. The article said: "When linked together, these facilities act as a production line, making Starship construction quicker". Berger says this is Musk's desire: "Musk wants a linear flow through the tents ...". I think Berger has an interest in reporting on the speculative parts of SpaceX's development operations. If an insider look is just reporting on aspirations for recently-devised manufacturing processes, then even if it's reliable, I fail to see why we should include it. After all, if this information is not reported in other reliable sources (ignoring the source-text incongruity), then is it due to include every new development wish? This is not a matter of reliability but editorial judgment. Urve (talk) 19:34, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Bad RfC No context is given so there is no basis on which to decide. If someone thinks a particular claim is a problem then it should be discussed as RSN was used until editors got it in their heads that every dispute should become a RfC that decided a general reliability question. Springee (talk) 11:07, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
- I agree that an RfC here seems very heavy-handed. Even if someone wishes to get a formal closure for a reliability discussion, an RfC is not requireed for that purpose. One can just post it at WP:ANRFC under "Other types of closing requests". A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 11:27, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 3: With regards to this specific topic the neutrality of Berger is highly questionable, if even debatable. I regularly read his content on Ars Technica, and as others have noted his technical descriptions come off as highly aspirational. It's common to see him reporting SpaceX/Musk talking points as certainties , which in reality frequently never come to pass. In summary, his reporting is faithful on an events and facts level, but highly colored by his connection to Elon Musk and SpaceX. On this particular subject I consider Berger WP:BIASED. Ebolaisariver (talk) 17:37, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 1: Per Jayron32, and Aquillion. Both seem to be fine, and I don't understand any of the context of the question as Aquillion pointed out. Huggums537 (talk) 01:08, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
- Bad RfC Journalists are not experts and therefore the reliability of their writings depends on the publication and the nature of the claim. An article written by an anonymous journalist for the New York Times for example is reliable for news, no matter who wrote it. OTOH, a signed opinion piece by a Times editor is not, per News organizations. TFD (talk) 09:38, 2 April 2022 (UTC)
- Ars Technica is a generally reliable source for news, with a technology and science focus. It is operated by Condé Nast, which owns a number of other generally reliable publications, including GQ, The New Yorker (RSP entry), Pitchfork, Vogue (RSP entry), and Wired (RSP entry). Ars Technica tends to be more in-depth than most technology websites, and falls under option 1. Eric Berger's articles that are published in Ars Technica are also generally reliable (option 1), including his articles on space or SpaceX. The reliability of Berger's articles that are published in other publications would depend on the reliability of those publications, and Berger's self-published articles would be judged by the WP:SPS policy. — Newslinger talk 13:26, 3 April 2022 (UTC)
- This RFC should include
{{rfc|policy}}
and/or{{rfc|sci}}
tags. And to add to the procedural pedantry: I'm not sure why this ever needed to be an RfC; it could have been an normal discussion/question. JBchrch talk 22:20, 3 April 2022 (UTC)- Added
{{rfc|sci}}
. The Wikipedia policies and guidelines RfC category is usually intended for changes to policy/guideline pages. — Newslinger talk 06:04, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
- Added
- Option 1 I'd like to offer a different perspective than just parroting that Ars Technica on a whole has been found to be reliable. I've been working specifically with Eric Berger's reporting on Space Launch System, and I've found him to be extremely reliable (alongside e.g. Philip Sloss and Jeff Foust). While finding and checking citations, I've on many occasions compared direct NASA sources to his reporting, and found his summaries to be fair, due, and accurate. Even in the case of controversial issues, such as discussed here and here, looking back with the perspective of two more years of history, his reporting was vindicated and the opposing sources were proven to be too optimistic. So, from my experience on specifically that topic over the course of multiple years, I would say that specifically Eric Berger's reporting for Ars Technica on the topic of spaceflight is generally reliable. On the other hand, I would have to say that per WP:SPS
Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications.
, I do have to disclaim that Eric Berger's Twitter (or other personal social media, separate from Ars Technica) should not be treated as a reliable self-published expert source. On numerous occasions he has tweeted unverified rumors and speculation, presumably too unverifiable to put into an actual Ars Technica article, that was later proven wrong. Leijurv (talk) 01:59, 7 April 2022 (UTC) - Option 1: for Eric Berger. For ArsTechnica, and especially some of its writers who do not cover tech issues, awful and very unreliable and tendentious. You will observe quite a few above also say Ars is good for tech reporting. But for all the Ars reposts from other Condé Nast pubs and some of its in-house writers... Ars is agitprop-level. But Berger tends to stick to tech issues and he himself should be relied upon.XavierItzm (talk) 23:49, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
RFC: Bitter Winter
Which of the following best describes the reliability of Bitter Winter?
- Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting
- Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
- Option 3: Generally unreliable for factual reporting
- Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be deprecated as in the 2017 RfC of the Daily Mail
Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 15:29, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: CESNUR is listed as unreliable on WP:RS/P, but there's nothing explicitly noted for the affiliated magazine Bitter Winter, which mainly focuses on oppression in China, and whose reliability may be different from CESNUR itself. From the section for Bitter Winter on CESNUR, I can see it being used by other WP:RS such as Le Monde, The Manila Times, Radio Free Asia, World, and the Department of State. This may call for a different evaluation of reliability than for CESNUR.Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 15:33, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- The US Department of State is an arm of the US government, and would not be a reliable source for anything but the most mundane, uncontroversial facts. Here, we're discussing a publication focused on China. Any statements by the State Department about China have to be viewed as political, and are not necessarily accurate. Radio Free Asia is also an arm of the US government, and per previous discussions at WP:RSN, caution is advised for subjects that the US government could have a political interest in. During the pandemic, for example, RFA has promoted disinformation about the COVID-19 death toll in China, pushing figures that are a factor of 10 (here, 40k or more) to 50 (here, 150k) times higher than scientific estimates (approximately 5k). -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:43, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Thucydides411: I'm not seeing where it says that RFA has promoted disinformation about the COVID-19 death toll in China. Is there a missing link? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:45, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- I don't know what "it" you're referring to, but we've had this discussion a number of times already. You know the articles I'm talking about (and I linked them above). RFA's recent history of pushing disinformation about the COVID-19 death toll in China is absolutely clear. -Thucydides411 (talk) 14:35, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Thucydides411: I'm not seeing where it says that RFA has promoted disinformation about the COVID-19 death toll in China. Is there a missing link? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:45, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- The US Department of State is an arm of the US government, and would not be a reliable source for anything but the most mundane, uncontroversial facts. Here, we're discussing a publication focused on China. Any statements by the State Department about China have to be viewed as political, and are not necessarily accurate. Radio Free Asia is also an arm of the US government, and per previous discussions at WP:RSN, caution is advised for subjects that the US government could have a political interest in. During the pandemic, for example, RFA has promoted disinformation about the COVID-19 death toll in China, pushing figures that are a factor of 10 (here, 40k or more) to 50 (here, 150k) times higher than scientific estimates (approximately 5k). -Thucydides411 (talk) 21:43, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 3 I don't see any evidence that Bitter Winter is necessarily free from the concerns that plague CESNUR as a source of information. This doesn't mean that they aren't working in China and aren't the subject of unethical reprisals by the Chinese government. I don't see their work cited by those sources, I see that those sources are reporting on the basic facts about the source. There's something of a use-mention distinction here; the source is being mentioned and described, but not being used as a source of information by reliable sources. --Jayron32 15:59, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- Upon closer inspection, it seems like you're correct that many of the sources in the article aren't relying on Bitter Winter for information but rather are reporting on Bitter Winter itself. However, it does seem to be the case that some WP:RS do cite Bitter Winter as a source for information, including Radio Free Asia 1 2 and Voice of America 3. Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 22:29, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- Both of which are U.S. Government funded sources, they are generally reliable, but with a caveat, from WP:RSP "Many editors consider that VOA is biased towards the interests of the American government and that its interference is enough to cast doubt on its reliability in some topics, particulary in news related to American foreign policies." for example. For non-politically-charged topics, I'd consider VOA and RFA fine. For one like this, no. --Jayron32 16:13, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
- Upon closer inspection, it seems like you're correct that many of the sources in the article aren't relying on Bitter Winter for information but rather are reporting on Bitter Winter itself. However, it does seem to be the case that some WP:RS do cite Bitter Winter as a source for information, including Radio Free Asia 1 2 and Voice of America 3. Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 22:29, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 1 The source is used by other WP:RS such as Voice of America and Radio Free Asia. There are no known examples of the source spreading misinformation and not correcting it. The only controversy I can see related to the source is a brief spat with ChinaSource that was seemingly resolved somewhat amicably with no conclusive evidence of falsehood being spread by Bitter Winter. Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 13:14, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
- Bad RfC No indication where it's being used on Wikipedia that's causing a dispute. Even if there was, it could go on the relevant talk page. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 13:32, 23 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 3 Looking at Bitter Winter it's clear that as well as being published by CESNUR its editorial staff is drawn from the same group of individuals. A look at some of their content suggests the same distorting advocacy that renders CESNUR unreliable. Cambial — foliar❧ 21:01, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
- From what I can see regarding CESNUR, most of the objections to using CESNUR as a source are based on its stance in favour of new religious movements rather than repeated examples of false content. The main objection is a conflict of interest objection, not a truthfulness one. Given this, since Bitter Winter covers a different subject area—the persecution of religious minorities by the Chinese government, regardless of whether they belong to new religious movements—it may not be subject to the same conflict of interest considerations. Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 14:42, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- I can only assume you’ve misread or misunderstood the objections. The comments above and below, including my own, refer to the problem of the group’s advocacy mission distorting its reporting of the facts. Its desire to achieve its ends frequently takes precedence over accurate and complete reporting, and leads to serious omission, distortion or alteration of the facts. These render it useless as an RS. Cambial — foliar❧ 09:41, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- From what I can see regarding CESNUR, most of the objections to using CESNUR as a source are based on its stance in favour of new religious movements rather than repeated examples of false content. The main objection is a conflict of interest objection, not a truthfulness one. Given this, since Bitter Winter covers a different subject area—the persecution of religious minorities by the Chinese government, regardless of whether they belong to new religious movements—it may not be subject to the same conflict of interest considerations. Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 14:42, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- Comment: CESNUR is listed as unreliable on WP:RS/P, but there's nothing explicitly noted for the affiliated magazine Bitter Winter, which mainly focuses on oppression in China, and whose reliability may be different from CESNUR itself. From the section for Bitter Winter on CESNUR, I can see it being used by other WP:RS such as Le Monde, The Manila Times, Radio Free Asia, World, and the Department of State. This may call for a different evaluation of reliability than for CESNUR.Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 15:33, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 2 Insufficient information available to pass judgement. What is the context? · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 09:11, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 3. Not enough indication of any reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, which means we can only go by the reputation of the parent organization... which is terrible. It could perhaps sometimes be used for opinion but even that should be done cautiously for WP:DUE reasons. I don't think being cited by Radio Free Asia and VOA are sufficient in this context for the reasons outlined above - they're WP:BIASED sources with a bias that would specifically push them to rely on weaker sources, so they're not sufficient to overcome the problems with the publisher or the lack of usage outside of that bubble. --Aquillion (talk)
- Option 3. Bitter Winter is the house organ of CESNUR, an activist group working to hold China accountable for human rights violations. Their goal may be worthy, but the publication exists to achieve the larger goal rather than to print the truth. Binksternet (talk) 15:53, 28 April 2022 (UTC)
- The consensus for outlets with a similar set of goals (e.g. VoA, RFA) is that they are generally reliable and able to be used, even for coverage on China. I don't see how this is any different. Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 00:02, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- For RFA, the consensus is that it should be treated with caution for any subject that the US government has a political interest in. That makes use of RFA for any China-related subjects highly questionable. Just to illustrate the risks of using RFA for China-related subjects: during the COVID-19 pandemic, RFA has promoted disinformation about the death toll in China (inflating it by a factor of 10 to 50, relative to scientific estimates) which I discussed in a comment above. -Thucydides411 (talk) 14:49, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- The consensus for outlets with a similar set of goals (e.g. VoA, RFA) is that they are generally reliable and able to be used, even for coverage on China. I don't see how this is any different. Ipnsaepl28 (talk) 00:02, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 3 with the note that their research/reporting is very well reported by WP:RS so there will still be a lot of legitimate uses here. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 00:45, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting. It is not as if the Chinese Communist party is a white dove that benevolently oversees the country; Bitter Winter merely chronicles the government's abuses.XavierItzm (talk) 18:30, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- Option 3: No justification or context has been provided why Bitter Winter would be any better than CESNUR. I would put no weight on the usages by VOA & RFA due to the rationale provided by Aquillion. If RS do use them in more than a "According to X, Y happened" I would cite the RS directly. Jumpytoo Talk 22:33, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
Sport at the Metro
Hi! Per Talk:2022 World Snooker Championship#Metro as a source?, I said I'd open up a conversation here. We have WP:METRO, and it has been discussed a lot (last 2017), but the coverage by the Metro for snooker is done by Phil Haigh, who previously worked at Eurosport and the Guardian (see [theguardian.com/football/2013/feb/01/arsenal-stoke-city-squad-sheets] for an example. What are your thoughts on the coverage of sports from this magazine? The about us page suggests that they have a likely editorial roll for sports. I can't say I've looked into it too much, but said I would start a conversation here. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 15:29, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Have you sought out other sources? Surely, snooker is popular enough that more than one single source covers it sufficiently so we don't have to even worry about carving out exceptions for otherwise unreliable sources? --Jayron32 16:20, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- The suggestion to use Metro was made by HurricaneHiggins. I am waiting for their input after they return next week, to hear what exactly the benefits from using Metro might be. But I would support an exception to WP:METRO for sports. Haigh is a reliable expert, and as far as I can tell, the quality of his work has not suffered since he switched to Metro. There currently are just three sources that make up the vast majority of sources in the Snooker articles (BBC, Eurosport, World Snooker). All of them have their strong and weak sides. There are active discussions about using other sources (not Metro specifically, but things that the three main ones don't cover); most of them run into WP:RS problems. Having a fourth good source would be valuable. Renerpho (talk) 17:03, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- We do have plenty of sources that are unreliable for certain topics, (such as say, politics or science). It's not really a case of "well, there's plenty of other sources, so this one doesn't need to be reliable", we should really focus on whether we trust information from a source for specific topics. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 17:54, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks, all. My rationale is that Phil Haigh is a knowledgeable sports journalist who covers snooker well — with Nick Metcalfe, he is a co-host of the Talking Snooker podcast. Such sources of information — people who know the game inside and out and write well about it — are valuable, because it's been my sense that snooker is nowadays largely ignored in the mainstream press, which focuses mostly on a few big names at the World Championships. I even see glaring errors nowadays in the BBC's coverage. So it's a bit frustrating not to be able to use Haigh's pieces for verification purposes, just because they appear in Metro. HurricaneHiggins (talk) 14:33, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- I reaffirm my support for HurricaneHiggins' suggestion. The source is reliable (in this context), and highly valuable. Please let's allow for the exception. Renerpho (talk) 02:49, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
- The suggestion to use Metro was made by HurricaneHiggins. I am waiting for their input after they return next week, to hear what exactly the benefits from using Metro might be. But I would support an exception to WP:METRO for sports. Haigh is a reliable expert, and as far as I can tell, the quality of his work has not suffered since he switched to Metro. There currently are just three sources that make up the vast majority of sources in the Snooker articles (BBC, Eurosport, World Snooker). All of them have their strong and weak sides. There are active discussions about using other sources (not Metro specifically, but things that the three main ones don't cover); most of them run into WP:RS problems. Having a fourth good source would be valuable. Renerpho (talk) 17:03, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- At the RSP entry, there are seven discussions linked, but I cannot see that any substantially relate to Metro, so I am unsure why it is listed as generally unreliable there. It is true that tabloids are normally unreliable, but I thought we needed dedicated discussion on a specific source in order to list it at RSP.In any case, the reasons that Metro is likely generally unreliable would probably not apply to routine coverage of snooker. Per Haigh's previous reporting, I would say it is usable for this type of sports coverage. This would not include anything that's BLP-sensitive, like if they were reporting that a well-known snooker player was a domestic abuser. — Bilorv (talk) 07:50, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
RealClearDefense
RealClearPolitics is listed as yellow at WP:RSP. RealClearDefense has the same owners.
At Sinking of the Moskva we've got this statement sourced to RealClearDefense:
the cruiser was expected to survive several strikes from Neptune missiles (150 kg or 320 lb warhead each) due to its large displacement
If we look at the source to see where the 150 kg number comes from, it says this:
All ship and weapon system characteristics were derived from UNCLASSIFIED sources (i.e., Wikipedia)... According to Wikipedia, the warhead on the Neptune ASCM weighs 150 kilograms or 330 lbs.[4]
This seems to me a violation of WP:CIRCULAR and suggests to me that not only the 150 kg number, but the entire analysis, is suspect. GA-RT-22 (talk) 16:16, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- That seems like straightforward WP:CITOGENESIS, all else aside. Regardless of the quality of a source we can't generally cite them for a specific point of fact that they unambiguously cite solely to Wikipedia itself. --Aquillion (talk) 17:22, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Why would this make the entire analysis suspect? They clearly say "According to Wikipedia" Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:52, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Seems like nothing to see here. Citogenesis is very clearly stated. Curbon7 (talk) 18:49, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- What specifically is being questioned? The weight of the warhead is clearly not acceptable per CITOGENESIS. However, the part about the cruiser being expected to withstand such a strike doesn't appear to come from Wikipedia (based on the arguments above). I suppose it could depend on how the claim is structured. Ship A is expected to withstand Missile B. Missile B happens to have a warhead of 150kg per Wikipedia. In that case the warhead weight is a secondary fact and the truth of the primary claim, Ship A can withstand, isn't dependent on the accuracy of Wikipedia. An alternative claim is Ship A is expected to withstand warheads of at least 200kg; Missile B has a warhead of 150kg thus A should withstand B. In that case the truth of the claim is dependent on the accuracy of Wikipedia and thus would be a kind of citogenesis. Springee (talk) 19:04, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- But the conclusion very clearly does depend on the number. If the number is wrong, so is the conclusion. GA-RT-22 (talk) 19:33, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Do you actually know that? The author could know something about what the missile can/cannot take out based on other information and included the mass as a secondary claim. As a hypothetical, a person might know a WW2 bunker of a specific design was rated to withstand a 250lb aerial bomb [cite army field manual]. They might then note that, per wikipedia a 250lb bomb contained about 125lbs of explosives. So the first claim is not dependent on the second claim. Unless we know the reason for the claim was based on the mass sourced to Wikipedia, we can't say this is citogenesis. Honestly, even if they say it is, there is some additional interpretation here since presumably the logic would be Ship A can withstand a warhead of size B. Per wikipedia the missile warhead is smaller than B. That would be taking facts on Wikipedia and reaching a new conclusion based on their analysis. Not ideal but again, not the same as saying, "Ship A can handle missile B per Wikipedia. Springee (talk) 20:21, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- OK, looking at the source [5], the only part of this that would be citogenesis is if we used this source to say the missile warhead is 150kg. The author does an analysis and uses the mass from Wikipedia for just one part. Their analysis is trying to answer the question, could 1 missile of this type sink the ship. What they found was, assuming the Wikipedia number is correct, it would take 4.6 missiles. Even if the warhead mass is off by a fair margin, his primary conclusion would remain assuming the rest of his analysis is sound. I'm not sure about the Wikipedia source since it was updated this year. However, here is an older source that says the same thing [6]. Springee (talk) 20:32, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- No, wait, that's not true. They cite Wikipedia repeatedly (citations iii through vi are all to Wikipedia), and those citations make up most of the basis of their analysis; in particular, most of the information about the MOSKVA's armaments, especially its SA-N-6 surface-to-air missiles, comes from Wikipedia. I think it is tricky to assess sources that take information from Wikipedia and apply their own analysis to it (it is not pure citogenesis, but the same basic problem applies), but in general we shouldn't be citing an analysis that relies so heavy on Wikipedia. --Aquillion (talk) 20:12, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- It's not classic citogenesis of the "make up a 'fact', put it on Wikipedia, let it propagate" variety, but it does seem to be laundering the numbers. The same basic problem, as you say: information that we shouldn't trust is made to look trustworthy by passing through an intermediary. XOR'easter (talk) 23:38, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- In that case I would suggest looking at the other facts taken from Wikipedia. Are the Wikipedia sources for those claims good? Can they be backed by other sources (as in my example)? Caution should be used if something is sourced to Wikipedia but that doesn't automatically make the analysis bad. I might make a claim based on the ideal gas law and cite conversions from Celsius to Kelvin and the value of the gas constant to Wikipedia. That wouldn't make my analysis fundamentally wrong. If an editor used independent sources to check my conversion/constant then I think we can agree the the use of Wikipedia doesn't undermine the overall result. Remember that many off Wikipedia do find it to be a useful place to gather basic facts, especially if they can see where the facts came from. Because this isn't citogenesis and the figures cited from Wikipedia can be verified (true or false), I think this is a case where the 3rd party's use of Wikipedia shouldn't disqualify (or qualify) the work. Springee (talk) 16:56, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- I don’t see any circularity issue because Wikipedia is not really the source, it’s just the intermediary. The 150kg number appears in WP but it comes from an external source, and since the Neptun is supposed to be a clone of the Russian KH-35 which has an export catalogue that specifies its warhead at 145kg, this number looks plausible. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 02:32, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- No, wait, that's not true. They cite Wikipedia repeatedly (citations iii through vi are all to Wikipedia), and those citations make up most of the basis of their analysis; in particular, most of the information about the MOSKVA's armaments, especially its SA-N-6 surface-to-air missiles, comes from Wikipedia. I think it is tricky to assess sources that take information from Wikipedia and apply their own analysis to it (it is not pure citogenesis, but the same basic problem applies), but in general we shouldn't be citing an analysis that relies so heavy on Wikipedia. --Aquillion (talk) 20:12, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- OK, looking at the source [5], the only part of this that would be citogenesis is if we used this source to say the missile warhead is 150kg. The author does an analysis and uses the mass from Wikipedia for just one part. Their analysis is trying to answer the question, could 1 missile of this type sink the ship. What they found was, assuming the Wikipedia number is correct, it would take 4.6 missiles. Even if the warhead mass is off by a fair margin, his primary conclusion would remain assuming the rest of his analysis is sound. I'm not sure about the Wikipedia source since it was updated this year. However, here is an older source that says the same thing [6]. Springee (talk) 20:32, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Do you actually know that? The author could know something about what the missile can/cannot take out based on other information and included the mass as a secondary claim. As a hypothetical, a person might know a WW2 bunker of a specific design was rated to withstand a 250lb aerial bomb [cite army field manual]. They might then note that, per wikipedia a 250lb bomb contained about 125lbs of explosives. So the first claim is not dependent on the second claim. Unless we know the reason for the claim was based on the mass sourced to Wikipedia, we can't say this is citogenesis. Honestly, even if they say it is, there is some additional interpretation here since presumably the logic would be Ship A can withstand a warhead of size B. Per wikipedia the missile warhead is smaller than B. That would be taking facts on Wikipedia and reaching a new conclusion based on their analysis. Not ideal but again, not the same as saying, "Ship A can handle missile B per Wikipedia. Springee (talk) 20:21, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- But the conclusion very clearly does depend on the number. If the number is wrong, so is the conclusion. GA-RT-22 (talk) 19:33, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- Seems a credible author in Anthony Crowder, he has many other works at RCD and with U.S Naval Institute. The ownership mention is irrelevant — RS goes by publisher and author, two things owned by the same person should have different RS evaluations. For example, Rupert Murdoch owns the Wall Street Journal and The Star and Chicago Sun-Times, each of which has different reputations. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 20:23, 29 April 2022 (UTC)
- The About page says that
RealClearDefense falls underneath the umbrella of RealClear Media Group's(RCMG) brands, sites that span a spectrum of passions and interests
and lists its history asFounded in 2000 by two news junkies from their Chicago apartment, RealClearPolitics grew out of a passion for combing the internet for the most interesting political stories of the day. Tom Bevan and John McIntyre wanted a site that contained the most pivotal information on the day’s need-to-know issues. It wasn’t long before they discovered they weren’t the only ones with this desire. Today, RealClearPolitics has grown from an intelligent aggregator into a comprehensive media company – RealClear Media Group (RCMG) – encompassing 14 specialty areas of coverage, original reporting from our staff of seasoned reporters, live events, the well-known RCP Poll Average, and original video.
Based on that I would say that RealClear Media Group is RealClearPolitics and that groups under its umbrella are not editorial independent, all falling under its current WP:RSP entry unless we have a reason to think otherwise. This isn't like two unrelated companies who have the same owner; this is more like eg. the Dotdash network of websites, or how Blaze Media also runs BlazeTV and TheBlaze. They're different brandings for the same core organization. --Aquillion (talk) 20:12, 30 April 2022 (UTC)- It's true that different newspapers with the same owner can have different reputations, as can different academic journals from the same publisher. But in the absence of clear indications that different RealClear properties are editorially independent from one another and aren't just multiple websites run out of the same office, I think the WP:RSP evaluation should apply to all of them. XOR'easter (talk) 23:42, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- It appears the author has a clear reputation as an expert and in this case their analysis is based on what appear to be a model accepted by others. In such a case we can rely less on the mixed result for RCP. RCP is currently yellow/no consensus. Many of the arguments against reliability seemed to be focused on the political opinions they were willing to publish. This is not a political article and as others have pointed out, the relationship between RCP and RCD is not clear. Certainly we shouldn't treat an apolitical, technical analysis written by a subject matter expert the same as we would treat their political opinion articles. If editors wish to argue that this information isn't DUE in the parent article, fine. However, to argue that the information isn't accurate seems suspect to me. Springee (talk) 17:07, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- It's true that different newspapers with the same owner can have different reputations, as can different academic journals from the same publisher. But in the absence of clear indications that different RealClear properties are editorially independent from one another and aren't just multiple websites run out of the same office, I think the WP:RSP evaluation should apply to all of them. XOR'easter (talk) 23:42, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- The About page says that
- Don't know when if ever, Murdoch owned the Chicago Sun-Times, but, no, he does not now. It is owned by Chicago Public Media Group, a non-profit. [7] Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:35, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- Oh, I see, Murdoch owned it for 2-years in the 1980s.[8] Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:48, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
Ok, so... we are citing a source that RSP says "should probably only be done with caution, and better yet should be avoided." And using it for an analysis based on numbers that come from Wikipedia. But it's OK because the author has also been published in U.S Naval Institute. Is that right? GA-RT-22 (talk) 20:53, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- No. It is circular sourceing and the work is not RS. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:05, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
- Yesish, it is RS but I also note other items in what RSP says. This article is RS for the cite because the author is expert in naval military matters, so the specific factors and directness of his analysis for the item mentioned in what makes the article RS. The wider RSP was about a different publication and topical arena so it seems not very appropriate, but note that Yellow is not just ‘avoid’, it is “may be usable depending on context”, “reliable in certain circumstances”, and “evaluate each use of the source on a case-by-case basis while accounting for specific factors unique to the source in question.” So yellow is saying to consider the specifics and to use it sometimes — and this seems an instance where the specifics say OK. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 01:17, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- It is mostly reliable. The only thing circular here is the weight of the warhead, which the RCD author was entirely open about his source. The piece itself is an independent expert analysis on Moskva's sinking and salvo size, which should be reliable. Vici Vidi (talk) 18:47, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- No, the article is clear that its analysis is entirely based on assumed information; see note ii, where the author says "The assumptions presented here are just that – assumptions. The reader is invited – nay, urged! - to come up with their own assumptions and take the Salvo Equations for a spin themselves!" Such a hypothetical analysis does not rise to the level of a reliable source for a factual event. While I have my doubts about any source affiliated with RealClearPolitics, this article by its own terms does not produce citable information. John M Baker (talk) 21:19, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
Just wanted to point out two more errors in this analysis. He's using 12,490 tons as the displacement; that number is wrong, and is the result of vandalism on Wikipedia back in 2015 that has since been corrected (see Talk:Russian cruiser Moskva#Full load displacement). And he has confused displacement with tonnage, a surprising beginner mistake for someone who claims to be an expert military analyst. GA-RT-22 (talk) 20:00, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
Do these sources suffice in arguing that Kuwait is the head of the Persian Gulf?
See [9] where there is an argument as to whether Kuwait should be in the lead on the basis it is the head of the Persian Gulf. Doug Weller talk 09:09, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- No. Looking at a map of today, it might be said that Kuwait is at the head of the Persian Gulf, along with Iraq and Iran. But a solo mention of Kuwait without mentioning the other two would be misleading. Most relevant for an article on Mesopotamia is a map of ancient times. On those maps, Kuwait was not the head nor near the head of the Persian Gulf. That distinction belongs to Iraq and secondarily Iran.Smallchief (talk) 10:36, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Smallchief:. Kuwait is not listed as the sole head of the gulf. The head is written as being:
(present-day Kuwait) and parts of present-day Iran, Syria and Turkey.
. Cheers, --SVTCobra 11:01, 30 April 2022 (UTC)- If the sentence can be read as saying the “head of the gulf” includes part of present day Syria and Turkey then it definitely needs a re-write. Syria and Turkey are definitely not on the gulf.
- No… The intent is to say that ancient Mesopotamia included present-day Iraq - as well as modern Kuwait and parts of Iran, Syria and Turkey. I would remove the “head of the gulf” bit entirely. Blueboar (talk) 12:08, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
- @Smallchief:. Kuwait is not listed as the sole head of the gulf. The head is written as being:
Okdiario
Should Okdiario (headed by Eduardo Inda) be deprecated as a source? It has not only been accused of being a manipulator and spreader of hoaxes, but it has also been sentenced several times by the Spanish justice. --KajenCAT (talk) 20:24, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
Some examples:
- The most important Consumer rights NGO of Spain, Facua: [10] [11] [12] [13][14]
- Greenpeace (points out as one of the main spreaders of hoaxes in the media) [15]
- Others: [16][17][18] [19][20][21]
--KajenCAT (talk) 20:28, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
Comments
- I am somewhat confused on a quick look. I randomly checked two of the sources shown. The Greenpeace link seems to be about WhatsApp. Are the two related? One Facua source is titled, "11,000 euros: After FACUA's complaint, they initiate a sanctioning process against Okdiario for a serious infraction". The infraction: "Eduardo Inda's newspaper violates consumer protection legislation by offering subscriptions with prices that do not include taxes." In my apparent ignorance to some point, I can not see a connection between these and the site being a "manipulator and spreader of hoaxes". I did see one but all news source have likely been guilty of printing things not exactly true, or even totally false.
- The link states the source is a Spanish digital newspaper aligned with neoliberalism and Spanish nationalism. It is my opinion, at first glance, that editors should not be limited to sources that are aligned to a particular way or idea. The entire concept of balance, due weight, and neutrality depends on being able to view different points of view. It is reported that "Its editorial line is part of the political spectrum of the liberal ideology and the unity of Spain", which is in line with the article. It is expedient to take note of this. If a source is used to push a particular article in a direction not in line with Wikipedia policies and guidelines we can act to protect this encyclopedia.
Rape as "weapon of war" in War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine
Discussion is ongoing at Talk:War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. Please direct your comments there. Thanks. --Jayron32 13:01, 4 May 2022 (UTC) |
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
- There's a body of literature, also statements by the President of the Security Council (32/2002) and resolutions of the UN Security Council (1820/2008), on the use of rape as an instrument of war - sexual violence "as a strategic and tactical weapon". The UN has developed a definition (here), which is also employed by the ICRC and other human rights organisations. Basically two elements are necessary: "systematic practice" and "chain of command". Chain of command doesn't necessarily mean an overt order to rape, but requires evidence that sexual violence is neither condemned nor punished by military hierarchy and is in line with the overall objectives of the group. Sexual violence as a weapon of war is something quite specific, and is different both from rape facilitated by war and from rape as a means of ill-treatment and torture.
- In 2014-2016, sexual violence was quite widespread in the Russo-Ukrainian War, but the OHCHR, in a report on Conflict-Related Sexual Violence in Ukraine 14 March 2014 to 31 January 2017 concluded that "there are no grounds to believe that sexual violence has been used for strategic or tactical ends by Government forces or the armed groups in the eastern regions of Ukraine".
- The lead section of War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine states that
Human rights organizations have also accused Russian troops of using mass rape as a "weapon of war"
. Two sources are quoted: an article by CNN and an article by The Guardian. - The article by CNN has a wrong title, as the rights groups interviewed by CNN apparently did not allege that Russian troops use rape as an "instrument of war". That claim, "using rape and other sexual offenses as weapons of war", was made by "Ukrainian officials", the article says, and possibly by a psychologist, Vasylisa Levchenko, who said to CNN "The weapon [rape] is a demonstration of complete contempt for the [Ukrainian] people".
- The article by The Guardian says that " Women across Ukraine are grappling with the threat of rape as a weapon of war", and says that "They ["Organisations such as La Strada Ukraine and a countrywide network called Feminist Workshop"] fear … that the trauma caused by the use of rape as a military tactic will lead to deep suffering across Ukrainian society". The claim is not substantiated, and it is not even clear if the source is La Strada, the Feminist Workshop or the journalist who signed the article. It's possible that the use of "rape as a weapon of war" here is vague and evocative, meaning that rape is related to conflict, widespread and harmful as a weapon; it i not sure whether it implies anything substantial about the existence of a deliberate strategy of the Russian authorities and armed forces.
- If and when a reliable source such as the UN Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International or also a piece of independent investigative journalism will claim that rape is being used "as a weapon", i.e. for military ends, that information will be notable and verifiable enough to belong to the lead of War crimes in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 00:34, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- All these sources are RS (and no one ever said they are not RS), but your question is not about sources, but about something else. You are posting in a wrong place. My very best wishes (talk) 15:50, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- you may be right and in that case I apologise. I had understood that this noticeboard deals with issues like "does this source X support this statement Y?", where X could also be a specific article from a generally reliable source. Am I wrong? Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:20, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- Gitz6666 perhaps it would be better suited for WP:NPOVN if the question is "How can we summarize what the sources say on the matter of rape during the Russian invasion of Ukraine in a neutral manner?" — Ixtal ( T / C ) ⁂ Join WP:FINANCE! 18:03, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you Ixtal for the suggestion. Actually the point I was trying to make was more about accuracy then neutrality: I think we are misunderstanding what the interviewed people and organisation meant to say when they spoke about rape being used as a weapon of war. They meant it is massive and widespread and odious, but they didn't imply anything (I guess) about a deliberate strategy of using rape for military ends; and if they were implying this, then (I argue) it's not notable, it's just an unsupported view. I'm afraid we are misleading our readers and trivializing an important point here. Thank you anyway, and sorry for having brought this to the wrong place. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:51, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- At any rate there's a thread on the talk page where anyone can express their views on the topic: Talk:War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#Rape_as_a_"weapon_of_war" Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:54, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you Ixtal for the suggestion. Actually the point I was trying to make was more about accuracy then neutrality: I think we are misunderstanding what the interviewed people and organisation meant to say when they spoke about rape being used as a weapon of war. They meant it is massive and widespread and odious, but they didn't imply anything (I guess) about a deliberate strategy of using rape for military ends; and if they were implying this, then (I argue) it's not notable, it's just an unsupported view. I'm afraid we are misleading our readers and trivializing an important point here. Thank you anyway, and sorry for having brought this to the wrong place. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 23:51, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- Gitz6666 perhaps it would be better suited for WP:NPOVN if the question is "How can we summarize what the sources say on the matter of rape during the Russian invasion of Ukraine in a neutral manner?" — Ixtal ( T / C ) ⁂ Join WP:FINANCE! 18:03, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- you may be right and in that case I apologise. I had understood that this noticeboard deals with issues like "does this source X support this statement Y?", where X could also be a specific article from a generally reliable source. Am I wrong? Gitz (talk) (contribs) 16:20, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- All these sources are RS (and no one ever said they are not RS), but your question is not about sources, but about something else. You are posting in a wrong place. My very best wishes (talk) 15:50, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- User Gitz is spot-on. -- Otr500 (talk) 03:51, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- As the discussion on the talk page is still ongoing (here above the link) may I suggest all interested editors to post their comments there? @Ixtal@My very best wishes@Otr500. The present discussion, posted in the wrong place, is closed. Again, apologises for my clumsiness. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 09:12, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
UKGameshows.com for reviews and opinions
I have created a few articles on trivial new British game shows (Sitting on a Fortune, Moneyball (game show)) and on each of them the reference from this website was removed by User:Neverrainy, first with no explanation and later with the explanation that this website is an unreliable Wiki. [22]
The website does have some parts that are Wiki and are open for volunteer editing, but these particular pages referenced are not, they are clearly attributed to a real person called Iain Weaver. So the argument that an opinion piece is "not reliable" is a non-starter.
I have never used this website to source "facts" but for clearly attributed opinions. We are talking about reviews for game shows, not for ballet or symphony. The other sources, which were not removed by this user, included one which was just reporting what Twitter users said about the show. So anonymous Twitter users are fine for opinions, but not a person on a specialist website.
So in short, are the authored pages of this specialist site reliable for opinion? I don't think the bar is particularly high for passing judgement on a gameshow, even the TV critics for most major newspapers are hardly the Robert Christgaus of the sector. Unknown Temptation (talk) 17:41, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- In my opinion: Of course, it is reliable. As a TV critic since around 2001, also having guest critics, the person gives his perspective that removes any doubt about promotional or advertising issues. Using the source on Moneyball (game show) gives negative reviews as well as some praise so should be looked at as very reliable for reviews or "opinion"[s] in the subjects field. -- Otr500 (talk) 03:43, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- Attributed opinions are not really subject to reliability tests, unless we believe that the website is not reliable for reporting the opinion of the person who is writing the website. This is a WP:UNDUE matter not a WP:RS matter. Discussions about the relevance of reviews are based on the reputation of the reviewer, but in cases like this, it is not a reliability issue because the website does reliably verify what the website itself says. WP:RSOPINION clearly states "Some sources may be considered reliable for statements as to their author's opinion, but not for statements asserted as fact... When using them, it is best to clearly attribute the opinions in the text to the author and make it clear to the readers that they are reading an opinion." --Jayron32 12:48, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- Seems OK for the attributed opinion, though I do not care for much content about opinions. The DUE question is harder here, as much of what little coverage there is will include opinion of some person. But I have to think WP:WEIGHT of this UKGameshows.com is at least more than Liverpool Echo, so it would be more DUE than at least that one of the other cites. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 13:20, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- As the site does not have any editorial policies or expertise of authors that I could locate, IMO it is unreliable for facts. I am unsure of the attributed opinions, however, better secondary sources should always be preferred over this one and assigned more weight. VickKiang (talk) 22:17, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
Is Film Threat still reliable?
At a recent AfD someone brought up whether Film Threat is still a reliable source. In the past it absolutely has been per discussion such as this, however recently someone brought up that the site offers paid reviews and other forms of promotion. Basically everything on their site can be paid for.
I was trying to see if there was a way to discern sponsored posts from non-paid ones, but I can't find where any of this is marked anywhere. So we have no way of knowing if a review is paid or not, or if the free reviews are ever completed or made as visible as the paid ones.
This is frustrating to me because I've used the site in the past to justify keeping films. There's even an article I'm working on where this review would really help towards notability. But them charging for reviews does make it questionable and since concerns were brought up at AfD, I thought it would be good to discuss it once more.
So the question here is this: Does the fact that they charge for marketing and reviews now invalidate this as a source? ReaderofthePack(formerly Tokyogirl79) (。◕‿◕。) 20:31, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- If "Basically everything on their site can be paid for.", is true, or partially true sometimes, then I would think that it cannot be trusted. -- Otr500 (talk) 02:06, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- Addition: To me a paid site means someone will surely get what they paid for, that will of course not be negative, so only advertisement and promotion. One will never hear anything negative on those infomercials which seems to be what the site may have become. -- Otr500 (talk) 03:30, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- It is clear that not all content on Film Threat is promotional; for example, plenty of the film reviews are negative. They even publish non-promotional (if anonymously written) reviews of reviewers. I believe the site can, at present, be used for sourced material, at least on a case-by-case, editors-can-recognize-promotion-when-we-read-it basis. If going forward the site's quality deteriorates, then of course we should revisit the issue. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 13:50, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- What bothers me is that they don't clearly mark their paid reviews. If they did that, then it would make me feel much better. Pay to play also tends to invalidate a lot of sources. This one just doesn't entirely sit well with me. I'll admit that it'd benefit me more to have it remain reliable since I could save and create more articles that way, but on the other hand I don't want to keep it if it's become more or less a promotional outlet. ReaderofthePack(formerly Tokyogirl79) (。◕‿◕。) 12:54, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Perhaps this option would make you more comfortable: stop using the site's content that is dated/produced after a certain date? I have no idea what that date is, but in the spirit of babies and bath water, if you can determine when the site began publishing paid content, that would be the date. I do not see how it benefits the encyclopedia to eliminate clearly reliable content (for example, critical film reviews) produced at an earlier date simply because more recent content might be illegitimate. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 15:12, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- What bothers me is that they don't clearly mark their paid reviews. If they did that, then it would make me feel much better. Pay to play also tends to invalidate a lot of sources. This one just doesn't entirely sit well with me. I'll admit that it'd benefit me more to have it remain reliable since I could save and create more articles that way, but on the other hand I don't want to keep it if it's become more or less a promotional outlet. ReaderofthePack(formerly Tokyogirl79) (。◕‿◕。) 12:54, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm sure I've seen something similar discussed before. I tried to look and found Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 190#Kirkus Reviews and Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 180#Kirkus Reviews although I'm not sure if that was it. In that case, it seems the site did give an indication what type of review it was albeit in a way many may not notice or understand. There was agreement in that case that reviews from before the practice started as definitely fine. It's noted in one of those threads that a common practice for such paid review sites is that although they may not guarantee a good review, the customer can normally choose whether the review will be published. Nil Einne (talk) 15:57, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
Ovicio.com
This is a Portuguese site that covers video games, films and comics. I recently bumped into it when searching for some resources Is anyone here able to determine the reliability of this site?
I've brought this up elsewhere, but there was no conclusion. But going by this archived version, it appears to be owned by R7.com, or at least was at one time. Though, if you do searches on R7, results from Ovicio.com still pop up, so I don't know. MoonJet (talk) 05:36, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
Wikitubia's Interviews
The wiki on fandom.com called 'Wikitubia' has interviewed several YouTubers, with the staff of the wiki only being allowed to conduct interviews. Should these interviews be considered as reliable sources for articles? Spiderwinebottle (talk) 15:37, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- Could possibly have some WP:BLPSELFPUB/WP:ABOUTSELF use, say place of birth, year of birth, etc. WP:ELMAYBE, maybe. Does not help an argument for WP:N. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:00, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
- Unless the YouTuber has independently confirmed her participation in the Wikitubia interview, I'd say no. Based on the Wikitubia Staff page, it seems to me that Wikitubia administrators are equivalent to Wikipedia administrators, and we all know that content written by Wikipedia administrators is not RS. feminist (talk) Слава Україні! 04:26, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- My mistake, I assumed this was YT-video interviews, but stuff like [23] (TheOdd1sOut) just seems like WP:USERG text. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:04, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
CV for academic qualifications of a historian
I will appreciate your views at a discussion on whether a CV can be used to source educational qualifications (graduation, post-graduation, PhD, and post-doctoral affiliations) of a tenured Professor of History at Rutgers University. Thanks, TrangaBellam (talk) 17:59, 5 May 2022 (UTC)
- If the CV is published by the person behind it, then yes you can use it if it isn't too unusual, it is policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Using_the_subject_as_a_self-published_source Vici Vidi (talk) 05:46, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- To clarify, CV's are reliable for including banal biographical information about a person, such as educational institutions they attended, or jobs they held, or whatever. CV's should not be used for highly contentious material, and cannot be used for establishing notability per WP:GNG. --Jayron32 15:07, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
The Kai Gohar Nama by Col. Zaroor Akhtar
Doing some cleaning up on various South Asia related articles have come across an article (Sultan Sarang Khan) which uses the above source. It doesn’t look to be academically published and neither the author seem to be anyone noticeable. May be a self-published source which isn’t ideal. Wanted to get some more opinions. Thanks. RuudVanClerk (talk) 09:09, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Based on few clues from Google Books (eg. [24] ), it may be some sort of edition of an old book from the 18th century about history and achievements of the Gakhar chiefs, compiled in verse. But this is only my guess. Pavlor (talk) 10:46, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Not reliable. No evidence of peer-review etc. TrangaBellam (talk) 15:15, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
diretta.it
Is this site reliable? This is site containing stats about sports player from every sport written in Italian. Dr Salvus 12:45, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
Expert on far-right published in The Conversation
Consensus has established that subject-matter experts published by The Conversation are generally reliable sources. At Turning Point UK, the use of an article from Chris Allen (wiki), an Associate Professor at the University of Leicester's Centre for Hate Studies, has been disputed as only usable as opinion. What are people's views on whether the article can be used as a reliable source? Cambial — foliar❧ 14:54, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- I think in general it is never a bad idea to cite singular analysis with attribution. Which is to say; whether we call it opinion or expert analysis, or whatever, if we are basing something we are writing in Wikipedia on a single voice, we explicitly attribute that single voice in the Wikipedia text, "According to so-and-so..." is good language to use here. This is especially true about the sort of analysis this article represents; the article is primarily about how to characterize and categorize TPUK as an organization; an inherently fuzzy process. If multiple reliable sources speak of an organization consistently in a certain manner, then it is okay to speak in Wikipedia's voice for such a characterization; because it is widespread and common. When we are citing a singular voice on any topic, and where such voice presents a characterization which is not present in the preponderance of reliable, general-use sources, it is always better to attribute that author directly. That we include it at all is dependent on the author being a recognized subject-matter expert. That we include it in Wikipedia's voice would imply widespread, general use sources frequently do the same in their own voice as well. We have the former situation (a subject matter expert), but not necessarily the latter (widespread use of the characterization by other general-use sources). --Jayron32 15:05, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Which part of it, and as a source for what? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:07, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- @ScottishFinnishRadish: The existing content it supports is "The group does not fit traditional conceptions of the far right." This seems to be relatively uncontroversial statement about how its expressed views or purposes align, or don't align, with pre-existing similar groups. Cambial — foliar❧ 15:37, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- I've been active over at the Turning Point UK page. My position, insofar as my contributions prior to this discussion opening, largely concur with those of Jayron. While Chris Allen is an expert in the topic, it still remains unclear as to whether his opinion represents consensus within political science, or is just his opinion. As such I think we should err on the side of caution and attribute that to Chris until it can be proven that the description, that the group does not fit within the standard descriptions of the far-right, has widespread support. Sideswipe9th (talk) 15:42, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Since Allen is relying mostly on his own research ("As our ongoing research suggests, the term “far right” is becoming increasingly meaningless and unusable as those on the right become ever more diversified and use a broader range of issues behind which to identify and mobilise"), I think it would be best to attribute his statements. But by the same token, I do not see that the Guardian's characterization of TPUK has widespread usage either. As such, since reliable sources seem to disagree, it would be best to attribute the Guardian as well. Dr. Swag Lord (talk) 21:52, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- It is certainly a singular opinion and I'd be surprised if it's shared widely - and I'd love to know what descriptions he wants to replace "far right" although I'm not sure he wants to. So if used, it must be attributed. This leaves the question as to whether it should be used. I don't think its differences from the EDL, National Front, etc. are that relevant. He does compare it with Generation Identity - see Les Identitaires which we say is widely considered neo-fascist. Note that he concludes "It also further muddies the water that groups, including TPUK, routinely – yet contradictorily and cynically we hasten to add – decry racism, endorse diversity and champion free speech. If nothing else, doing so enables TPUK and others to refute those who claim it to be far right, which might be just enough to ensure its appeal to those who might have previously been adverse to this label. For this reason, now might be the time to rethink the existing vocabulary and the way it is used to describe such groups." So on reflection, I don't think it should be used. If we find other reliable sources agreeing with him, that will be the time. Doug Weller talk 07:23, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
- Broadly agree with Jayron. He’s definitely an expert and noteworthy but better to attribute and only include in lead if wide range of othe sources say same thing.BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:58, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
RFC concerning New Eastern Outlook
Which of the following best describes the reliability of New Eastern Outlook ?
- Option 1: Generally reliable for factual reporting
- Option 2: Unclear or additional considerations apply
- Option 3: Generally unreliable for factual reporting
- Option 4: Publishes false or fabricated information, and should be added to Wikipedia:Deprecated sources?
HouseOfChange (talk) 15:25, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Comment none of the above, as the reliability of a source depends on context. The claims attributed to the DOS and the USDT don't belong in the lead section of the article. M.Bitton (talk) 15:42, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- This looks like a whole thing. Is there an article or talk page or some such that people should refer to for context? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:47, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- would like some more context but generally NEO is Option 4, its an information operations platform which masquerades as an academic journal (much like say Mankind Quarterly but run by a state rather than a private group). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:51, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- @ScottishFinnishRadish: this is my third effort, and if I screwed up the process here also, I apologize! Here are four relevant bullet points:
- 2019 discussion on deprecating "Sites identified by reputable sources as state-sponsored fake news / disinformation".
- Article New Eastern Outlook cites multiple RS identifying it as a "state-sponsored fake news / disinformation" website.
- As of the 2019 discussion, the status of NEO as state-sponsored fake news was less clear than it is in 2022. (I just created article on NEO from a re-direct a few days ago.)
- Lots more context in Archive 375
- I hope this is helpful and not too much of a wall of text. HouseOfChange (talk) 16:12, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- A quick look at those sources raises some questions such as: What makes the DOS and the USDT more RS (or less biased) than the Strategic Culture Foundation and SouthFront? M.Bitton (talk) 16:14, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- @M.Bitton: It isn't one isolated, unconfirmed, recent claim from
these sources
. There's a 2020 report from Trump's DOS, confirmed in 2021 and 2022 by Biden's DOS and DOT, with two green check-marked RS (Wall Street Journal and Politifact) independently confirming the "disinformation" label. Searching EU vs Disinfo turns up 49 results for journal-neo.org including "13.05.2020 US might be developing weaponised insects" and "07.02.2020 Scientific evidence is mounting that the coronavirus is man made and targeting the Chinese race." HouseOfChange (talk) 04:35, 7 May 2022 (UTC)- @HouseOfChange: Incidentally, these are all related to Russia's declared enemies. Is the pursuit of academic excellence the raison d'etre of Trump's and Biden's DOS and DOTA? A search for "US might be developing weaponised insects" turns up some some interesting results. That's why I said that the reliability of the source depends on context. M.Bitton (talk) 12:46, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
- @M.Bitton: It isn't one isolated, unconfirmed, recent claim from
- A quick look at those sources raises some questions such as: What makes the DOS and the USDT more RS (or less biased) than the Strategic Culture Foundation and SouthFront? M.Bitton (talk) 16:14, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
- Option 4. I wouldn't deprecate a source based solely on the opinion of one government... but fortunately we don't have to. [1] describes it as a source of Russian COVID-19 disinformation; [2] describes it as a "junk news" source. [3] includes a note that
in 2019, Facebook removed 12 social media accounts and 10 pages linked to the New Eastern Outlook and The New Atlas. These accounts and pages were removed for using fake accounts, creating fictitious personas, and driving users to “off-platform blogs posing as news outlets”
. These, to me, say that this source publishes intentional disinformation while trying to appear reliable and respectable; that is exactly the sort of source that deprecation exists for. --Aquillion (talk) 04:41, 7 May 2022 (UTC)- It's also used by thousands of RS (see Google Scholar and books) for the various subjects that it covers. What Facebook does, including allowing praise of the neo-Nazi regiment Azov when it suits its political agenda, is neither here nor there. M.Bitton (talk) 12:46, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
- @M.Bitton: can you dial back the nastiness a little bit? You're lashing out because you're losing an argument and that just isn't appropriate. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:50, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back: There s no nastiness in my comments, therefore, I will urge you to refrain from casting aspersions. M.Bitton (talk) 14:56, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
- How would you describe "What Facebook does, including allowing praise of the neo-Nazi regiment Azov when it suits its political agenda, is neither here nor there" then? Snark? Humor? Off topic comment? I just don't see how bringing up is constructive and not meant to be a dig at Aquillion. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:58, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
- Let me make it really simple for you: you either stop casting aspersions and misrepresenting what I said or you'll take a trip to ANI. Facebook was brought up, so it's only fair to remind the readers what it does when it suits its political agenda. M.Bitton (talk) 15:01, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
- Why is that only fair? This is a discussion of New Eastern Outlook not facebook, whether or not facebook allows Azov to be praised or not has exactly zero bearing on the topic at hand. If you are being misrepresented then please clarify what you intended to communicate. Threatening ANI is uncalled for, such battleground behavior really isn't appropriate. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:20, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
- I suggest you take your time to read what I wrote again. 15:28, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
- I can't make heads or tail of it, you seem to pinball from threats to irrelevancies without actually engaging with the topic at hand which is the reliability of New Eastern Outlook. Perhaps you would care to explain what Facebook's tolerance of pro-Azov posts has to do with their removal of New Eastern Outlook linked info-ops accounts? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:44, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back: Facebook, whose profit model makes it reluctant to remove false content of any kind, blocked NEO in 2019 for "coordinated inauthentic behavior," a kind of deception that isn't the same as posting deceptive content. On February 24, 2022 Facebook made a minor change to policy re Azov. I also don't see a connection beyond whataboutism. HouseOfChange (talk) 15:56, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
- I was hoping for an explanation besides whataboutism or trolling but it doesn't appear that one is going to be forthcoming. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:09, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back: Facebook, whose profit model makes it reluctant to remove false content of any kind, blocked NEO in 2019 for "coordinated inauthentic behavior," a kind of deception that isn't the same as posting deceptive content. On February 24, 2022 Facebook made a minor change to policy re Azov. I also don't see a connection beyond whataboutism. HouseOfChange (talk) 15:56, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm done here as I can't pretend to have a decent discussion with those who personalize the comments. M.Bitton (talk) 15:52, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
- Again I fail to see the connection, you weren't pretending to have a decent discussion before I engaged with you. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:09, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
- I can't make heads or tail of it, you seem to pinball from threats to irrelevancies without actually engaging with the topic at hand which is the reliability of New Eastern Outlook. Perhaps you would care to explain what Facebook's tolerance of pro-Azov posts has to do with their removal of New Eastern Outlook linked info-ops accounts? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:44, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
- I suggest you take your time to read what I wrote again. 15:28, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
- Why is that only fair? This is a discussion of New Eastern Outlook not facebook, whether or not facebook allows Azov to be praised or not has exactly zero bearing on the topic at hand. If you are being misrepresented then please clarify what you intended to communicate. Threatening ANI is uncalled for, such battleground behavior really isn't appropriate. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:20, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
- Let me make it really simple for you: you either stop casting aspersions and misrepresenting what I said or you'll take a trip to ANI. Facebook was brought up, so it's only fair to remind the readers what it does when it suits its political agenda. M.Bitton (talk) 15:01, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
- How would you describe "What Facebook does, including allowing praise of the neo-Nazi regiment Azov when it suits its political agenda, is neither here nor there" then? Snark? Humor? Off topic comment? I just don't see how bringing up is constructive and not meant to be a dig at Aquillion. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:58, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Horse Eye's Back: There s no nastiness in my comments, therefore, I will urge you to refrain from casting aspersions. M.Bitton (talk) 14:56, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
- @M.Bitton: can you dial back the nastiness a little bit? You're lashing out because you're losing an argument and that just isn't appropriate. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 14:50, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
- It's also used by thousands of RS (see Google Scholar and books) for the various subjects that it covers. What Facebook does, including allowing praise of the neo-Nazi regiment Azov when it suits its political agenda, is neither here nor there. M.Bitton (talk) 12:46, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
- Option 4. We have reliable sources that tell us exactly what kind of outlet this is. Even if we didn't, looking for just a moment at what they are writing about what they are calling the 'The Russian special operation in Ukraine' makes it pretty clear what is going on there. - MrOllie (talk) 17:16, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
- Option 4 This is an easy one. Even if you don't want to believe the federal government, there is pretty much consensus in RS that New Eastern Outlook is a Russian propaganda site. Per Alexander Reid-Ross:
Additional fascinating examples of Russian state systems percolating into the alternative media ecosystem are Redfish, the New Eastern Outlook...The publication of the Institute of Oriental Studies of the Russian Academy of Sciences, New Eastern Outlook produces conspiracy theories about Rothschilds and George Soros and Islamophobic material, and hosts articles by Duginist Catherine Shakhdam and conspiracy theorist Vanessa Beeley, among others.
[25]. Dr. Swag Lord (talk) 20:41, 7 May 2022 (UTC) - Option 4 as per Aquillon and Dr Swag. Definitely a disinfo site made more dangerous by its thin veneer of academic respectably. 17:10, 8 May 2022 (UTC) (Above comment by Bobfrombrockley whose sig got messed up by something weird with the tildes. This sig-related comment in parens is by HouseOfChange. HouseOfChange (talk) 02:45, 9 May 2022 (UTC))
References
- ^ Hoyle, Aiden; Powell, Thomas; Cadet, Beatrice; van de Kuijt, Judith (2021). "Influence Pathways: Mapping the Narratives and Psychological Effects of Russian COVID-19 Disinformation": 384–389. doi:10.1109/CSR51186.2021.9527953.
{{cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires|journal=
(help) - ^ Gallacher, John D.; Barash, Vlad; Howard, Philip N.; Kelly, John (10 February 2018). "Junk News on Military Affairs and National Security: Social Media Disinformation Campaigns Against US Military Personnel and Veterans". arXiv:1802.03572 [cs].
- ^ Talamayan, Fernan (15 December 2020). "Policing Cyberspace: Understanding Online Repression in Thailand and the Philippines". Rochester, NY.
{{cite journal}}
: Cite journal requires|journal=
(help)
Little Black Book (lbbonline.com)
Is lbbonline.com reliable enough for usage in BLP articles? The website design looks questionable, in particularly blog-like to me with what looks like some sorts of advertisement splatter across the header, similarly to the common design used by unreliable SPS sources. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 13:45, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- What BLP articles? And what content does someone want to add? Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:24, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Peter Gulutzan BLP article concerned Jisoo. Content added is this Initially inclusion through this this diff and second inclusion through this diff after reverted by me as WP:QUESTIONABLE. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 14:38, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
Wanted to know whether these websites are reliable sources
Most editors use filmibeat.com and tollywood.net as sources for articles related to films. I would like to know whether these sources are reliable,if not please add those to list of non-reliable sources list TuluveRai123 (talk) 16:55, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
The Filmik
Recently, I have noticed The Filmik being usedin the film infoboxes as a source for budget and I want to discuss the reliability of this site.
Currently it is being used a source on Babylon (2022 film) and The Contractor (2022 film). --Babar Suhail (talk) 00:25, 9 May 2022 (UTC)