Wikipedia Arbitration |
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A request for arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution for conduct disputes on Wikipedia. The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and review previous decisions. The entire process is governed by the arbitration policy. For information about requesting arbitration, and how cases are accepted and dealt with, please see guide to arbitration.
To request enforcement of previous Arbitration decisions or discretionary sanctions, please do not open a new Arbitration case. Instead, please submit your request to /Requests/Enforcement.
This page transcludes from /Case, /Clarification and Amendment, /Motions, and /Enforcement.
Please make your request in the appropriate section:
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Requests for arbitration
Requests for clarification and amendment
Clarification request: Indefinite Topic-ban from post-1978 Iranian politics, broadly construed.
Initiated by Ypatch at 03:49, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- Case or decision affected
- Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Iranian politics
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
- Ypatch (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
Statement by Ypatch
Vanamonde93 (courtesy ping) sanctioned me with a topic ban for my involvement on the People’s Mujahedin of Iran page. I think Vanamonde is a good admin, and I do take responsibility for my flaws as an editor: I could have tried harder to put myself in the other’s shoes, could have tried harder to debate from a more objective perspective instead of nickpicking fallacies or flaws from counter arguments. I have since taken time off from Iranian politics, and really don’t plan to get involved with debating with anyone again or editing on this topic. I would just like to, from time to time, be able to comment on some talk page discussions. I do know a lot about this subject, and think I could help clarify some points citing the literature I’m familiar with, etc. That is what this request is about.
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Indefinite Topic-ban from post-1978 Iranian politics, broadly construed.: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Indefinite Topic-ban from post-1978 Iranian politics, broadly construed.: Arbitrator views and discussion
- It has not even been three months since this sanction was levied, and the current convention is to wait at least six months before appealing indefinite topic bans; I am not seeing any compelling reason in the request to overrule or otherwise fast-track this. Primefac (talk) 08:16, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with Primefac. --BDD (talk) 21:36, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- What is our precedent about when a sanction has not been logged? Because that's the situation where in here - the sanction was clearly labeled as AE and the editor it applied to clearly understood it, but it wasn't put in the AELOG and I find the policy language confusing on the matter. My guess is that we just fix the missing log and proceed apace in this situation but want to ask that broader question first. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:42, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- Since both the admin and affected user clearly understood, I'm fine fixing the log and reminding the admin. I'd like to think WP:NOTBURO can apply even to DS enforcement. (If either were party were not clear, however, this would be more than a bureaucratic matter.) -- BDD (talk) 01:15, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- Yeah BDD I think you have this right. I have been holding off further comment awaiting comment from Vandamonde. It looks like they were never formally notified, and the ping from Maxim below might be the first they're hearing of it though also their activity has been light recently. I am leaving them a talk page notice as that might generate some attention a ping did not. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:17, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Since both the admin and affected user clearly understood, I'm fine fixing the log and reminding the admin. I'd like to think WP:NOTBURO can apply even to DS enforcement. (If either were party were not clear, however, this would be more than a bureaucratic matter.) -- BDD (talk) 01:15, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
- I do want to note that Vanamonde93's original note did mention three months as a sort of cool-off period (for lack of a better term). In addition, as Ypatch's edits elsewhere seem productive and considerable, and the appeal is not bad, I'm willing to entertain this appeal, that is, not simply dismiss as too early. @Vanamonde93: I'm interested in any thoughts you may have on the appeal. Maxim(talk) 19:21, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm of the opinion that admins have the discretion to make such calls and absent a good reason, we shouldn't be looking at it. I agree with above that review shouldn't happen in less than 6 months, and I'd rather it was considered at AE, or by the original admin, though I do accept ARCA is a option. WormTT(talk) 09:34, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
Clarification request: Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Awareness and alerts
Initiated by Jayron32 at 13:16, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- Case or decision affected
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
- Jayron32 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
- There are no involved parties, but this should be sufficient to notify anyone who was involved in the prior discussion.
Statement by Jayron32
There was a recent ANI case that centered around ambiguity of Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Awareness and alerts. After some acrimony, the case was solved sufficiently, so I am not naming any parties for this request for clarification, though any commentary from anyone involved with that discussion would be welcome. One of the tangential issues that came up related to some ambiguity of the DS awareness and alert system regarding the 12-month time limit, especially in regards to notifying users who are not active in the area-of-dispute they are being alerted for. The user in question had done some editing back in January in the area, but had not touched it in the intervening months, and was blindsided by a DS-alert template which confused and confounded them; this led to an argument over the placement of the template, some considerable WP:WIKILAWYERing, and some unnecessary name-calling. Eventually, things calmed down, but not until there had been a lot of drama. I feel like a lot of this could have been avoided if there were some better clarification on the appropriate use of DS-alert templates; specifically when is the use of the template authorized, and more importantly when not. I had mistakenly thought that there was some parameters on when it could be placed, but I can't find anything in the guidance; is it really intended that any user can be notified of, and placed under, DS-alert at any time, regardless of whether or not they are, or have ever been, actively editing in one of the DS-targeted areas? If not, what are the parameters of when it is appropriate to use such an alert? Which is to say, how recently should a person have been editing in the targeted area? The past week? Past month? Past year? Ever? Thanks for your attention to, and clarification of, this issue. --Jayron32 13:16, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- @nableezy: It actually isn't a non-event. The DS alert system makes it possible to place someone under the more restrictive sanctions authorized by the DS system; as such it is a form of sanction in itself, regardless of wording to the contrary, since if someone is not notified, they cannot be so sanctioned under DS. Telling someone they are being placed under increased scrutiny for their editing is not a neutral act. --Jayron32 14:17, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Zero0000: I agree wholeheartedly that if we had a bot system to do so, it would be much preferable. I also agree that people should not be overreacting to having the notice placed on their page, however they clearly do. This is not a personal issue, it is a systems issue, which is to say that no one should be considered to be at fault here. There is a system in place that has problems, and we need changes to the system to fix it. I am not particularly concerned with assigning any blame in the precipitating event that led me to ask for this clarification; I have intentionally not named any party. BOTH of the people involved acted in good faith, but emotions got high and that could have been avoided had the system we are using been better designed. Bot notifications only, or contawise, clearer guidance on parameters for notifying editors, would help so that good faith editors are not encouraged into conflicts in the future. --Jayron32 14:23, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Firefangledfeathers: re "Activity in the topic area at least a few times during the preceding year seems a reasonable justification for posting an alert, and I've never seen anyone alert someone who hasn't been active at all in the prior year." I have no problem if that is the standard, but if so, the guidance at AC/DS would benefit from such a statement. Without parameters, we have no idea what is and is not appropriate; disagreement due to such ambiguity is a locus for good faith disputes, which can be headed off if we have explicit guidance. I am not particularly privy to other problems with the DS system, I only really started this discussion over a narrowly defined problem. --Jayron32 14:31, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Barkeep49: Thank you for your lengthy explanation. Contrary to your statement that your response doesn't deal with my issue directly, I rather find that it does; while I was only asking for a tweak to the guidance offered at the DS system, a complete system overhaul may accomplish the same as part of its loftier goals. Since there appears to be some drafting and discussions already in the works on doing so, maybe this recent situation will inform thoughtful implementation of the new system with the problems in mind. Thanks again! --Jayron32 16:33, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Selfstudier
I would prefer that all editors be presumed aware if they meet a requirement (eg 500 edits + 30 days). Send out a notice to the talk page of such editors once they qualify explaining that. Then it is only necessary to deal with relatively new editors and they can be covered with the same notification sent manually (by anyone). Maybe this is too simplistic but the current system is dreadful. Selfstudier (talk) 13:44, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Nableezy
This is very basic, and yes a whole lot of unnecessary drama. The placing of an informational template, which explicitly disclaims any accusation of wrongdoing, is a non-event. A bot should do it, if you have edited in a topic area covered by discretionary sanctions you should be informed of the sanctions, full stop. Calling that harassment, when it is one edit giving a required notification, is asinine and borders on gaslighting when coupled with actually harassing claims and insults. If a user has a history, any history, of activity that would merit a trip to AE, including edit-warring or personal attacks, they should be informed of the sanctions. So that if that occurs in the future it may be reported to AE rather than the circus of ANI. And if you do not want a notification, place the freaking awarness template on your talk page. You can do it in a hidden comment and it won't even display the banner. nableezy - 13:56, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- Jayron32, yes being aware means one can be taken to AE and not ANI and be subject to discretionary sanctions. It is still a non-event, the topic area as a whole is already covered by the sanctions. Ensuring that all participants are aware of those rules that already apply to them is not telling someone they are being placed under increased scrutiny for their editing, it is telling them that when they edit in a specific topic area their editing is already placed under increased scrutiny. It is informational, not threatening. That is why the alert says This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date. It is specifically tailored to not be anything more than informing a user of sanctions that are already in effect. Yes, if you violate them at that point you may be reported to AE. Ok, and? nableezy - 14:33, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- Jayron32, Im fine with some clarity on if or when an alert should be placed, and I appreciate the way you brought this without blaming anybody, but I also dispute that "raised emotions" is anything close to a reasonable reaction to being informed of sanctions already in place. If you dont want the notification on your talk page, revert it. If you dont want to receive another one, place the awareness. nableezy - 15:01, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Zero0000
With due respect to Jayron32, experienced editors are not "blindsided" by receiving DS-alerts. Whether clarifications to the rules are needed, I'm not sure. Perhaps bringing together the disparate bits into one statement would help. However, DS-alerts exist for a good reason and it must not be the case that delivering them is something a good faith editor only undertakes with trepidation. A objective system would be a bot that delivers an alert to any editor who edits a page with a DS template but hasn't received an alert in the past 12 months and doesn't have the DS-alert template. With that system, I will get one every year and that's just fine. Zerotalk 14:18, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Firefangledfeathers
The deep background on this is that the DS awareness system is broken. Sending good vibes to whoever is currently working on the reforms. In the meantime, I don't think the timing issue at hand needs explicit clarification. Activity in the topic area at least a few times during the preceding year seems a reasonable justification for posting an alert, and I've never seen anyone alert someone who hasn't been active at all in the prior year.
I have a separate request for clarification related to the same dispute. WP:AWARE's criterion #2 says "They have ever been sanctioned within the area of conflict (and at least one of such sanctions has not been successfully appealed)"
, but it's not clear whether a revoked sanction that wasn't appealed fulfills the criterion or not. I doubt there are many sanctions removed without appeal, but there's been at least one, and confusion over the awareness status was a part of this dispute. Can we tweak the criterion to say "and at least one of such sanctions has not been revoked"
? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:23, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
- I think Jayron32's point in response to me is a good one. Though I think clarification won't reduce out-of-process alerts, it might lead to quicker resolution of conduct disputes. I'm in favor of a change to the documentation at Template:Ds/alert along the lines of:
Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 14:40, 26 May 2022 (UTC)"Users
editing these pageswho have edited these pages within the last year may be alerted that discretionary sanctions are in effect."
Statement by Jip Orlando
First of all, thank you to Jayron32 for bringing this here. I closed the ANI thread as the discussion had moved from being productive to having a strong heat>light ratio as an uninvolved editor. For some personal background, I had notified Levivich of a DS alert in 2020 regarding infoboxes here: [1] as I honestly could not tell if he was aware of the drama that had plagued that topic area. He 'thank'ed me for the notification. The next day, an IP editor with no other few other edits posed a DS-aware template on my talk page: [2]. I took no offense but I think it is reasonable to assume, based on my participation in the topic area that I was aware, even without the template.
Maybe the template can be softened? It already says, as Nableezy says above, that wrongdoing is not assumed. I intentionally stay away from the hornets' nest that is AMPOL, IPA, PIA, and the other 'alphabet soup' sanction areas. The challenge lies in the wording that an editor must be notified of DS. And I get why- there is extensive precedent that an area has been problematic. These templates, as noted above, are good for new editors that may not be aware of problems. Most established editors who read the dramah areas will be aware without seeing a DS template with the draconian scales of justice on their talk page.
Further clarification is necessary and possible investigation needed on the effectiveness of these templates. Maybe encouraging editors to place the DS-aware template on their talkpage to avoid the drama? The current system is impersonal and sometimes insulting, as seen in the ANI thread. Perhaps loosening the yearly awareness criterion and moving to a one-off? Talk page histories are rarely deleted and it is easy to find the diff of when a notification was sent. We could also have a bot do it, which removes the personal grudges and the HAHA, GOTCHA! nature of these notifications, especially when it comes from one established editor to another.
In sum, my thoughts are:
- Change the wording of the DS templates to something softer.
- Change the yearly awareness criterion to a one-time notification being sufficient.
- Have a bot do it. I worry though, that this becomes a bit bureaucratic. Notification for notification's sake without understanding the nuances involved.
This is tricky and often a sore spot for editors. Thanks, Jip Orlando (talk) 14:30, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Sideswipe9th
While the bot idea sounds promising in theory, in practice it is less so. Many of our discretionary sanctions pages are only considered so due to "broadly construed". While a human editor can make the determination as to whether or not a specific article is within the scope of one or more relevant sanctions, that isn't feasible for bot. In order for a bot to function, lists of articles would need to be created and maintained, one for each sanction area, with new articles added as they are created or at some point enter the scope of a sanction, and others being removed as they are deleted or leave the scope of a sanction. While an alternative to a public facing list might be for the bot to scan/read for a ds/talk notice on an article's talk page, not all articles that are within the scope of a sanction have been tagged as such. Sideswipe9th (talk) 14:35, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Rosguill
Based on my experience at AE and in DS areas, I think that a one-time notification for a given DS, rather than a yearly notification, seems appropriate for any sanction regime that does not have a built-in sunset date and which has not been amended since the last notification. Now, as I type this, I recognize that cases where the regime has been amended since the last notification could present a thorny edge case, but it would at least have allowed us to dodge this instance of Nableezy v. Levivich. signed, Rosguill talk 14:57, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Newimpartial
I support Rosgull's proposal for "perma-awareness" once an editor is AWARE of a particular DS area: this would seem to remove the major irritants of the current system, which in my view consist of (i) editors becoming annoyed at new templated reminders after a year has passed (although they are unwilling to template themselves as ds-aware, which would avoid this annoyance, for whatever reason), and (ii) editors evading sanctions thanks to expired awareness templates - the scenario that gives rise to the renewed notifications, which in turn gives rise to (i).
It seems to me that the one possible drawback of this proposal - that arising from changes to the scope of DS areas - could be substantially mitigated by some form of automagical notification when the scope of a sanction area changes. This might not be possible, as things stand, in the case of editors who are deemed to be aware, for example, due to their participation in AE discussion on a certain DS topic. That anomaly might be a reason to change the overall awareness procedure slightly, so that editors who are "deemed aware" have to receive the template on their user Talk after their awareness has been noted: they were already aware as of the date and time of their AE participation in the topic area, but the template is used as a marker so that the systems can detect its presence in the user Talk history and generate a notice of the change of the DS topic's scope, should that happen.
It seems to me that whatever small advantage there might actually be in "reminding" editors of DS areas annually is substantially outweighed by the irritants (i) and (ii) I noted above; the existence of the DS-aware template also already nullifies this supposed advantage for a non-trivial population of editors. Newimpartial (talk) 15:16, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Peter Gulutzan
Re "Activity in the topic area at least a few times during the preceding year seems a reasonable justification for posting an alert ..." I'd hope that would be a minimal justification since I've recently seen what appears to be an administrator's alert after a single climate-change comment on a talk page (I'll point to the discussion and ping the parties if someone thinks that's dubious). It would enhance if the third sentence was "You have shown interest in [topic] three or more times in the last twelve months." If it's false that doesn't invalidate the alert, but the recipient (per later in the DS/alert message) can query "What edits? Prove it", which makes it more trouble to issue alerts without prior research. The twelve-month expiry is good for the same reason. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 16:53, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.
Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Awareness and alerts: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Awareness and alerts: Arbitrator views and discussion
- I have thoughts and admittedly they're going to address what I think should be rather than strictly what is now because I think we need to be making changes here. The next person familiar with awareness (even at a cursory level) who thinks our current rules are working will be the first I know of. Beyond that, this appeal also deals with the reality that our alert templates don't feel good to receive, regardless of what may be the bolded text may say. In the DS reform that L235 and I drafted last year we attempted to deal with both of these issues.For AWARENESS, what I believe should happen is that the current AWARENESS criteria be replaced with an appealable presumption of awareness following an initial alert in a topic area. Often what's happening with DS is that the rules being broken are not special rules of DS but broader Wikipedia rules that are being enforced more rigorously (both in what it takes for there to be a sanction and how stringent the sanction is). So it's fair, as Newyorkbrad has eloquently pointed out on more than one occasion, to make sure editors know this system exists before they're subjected to it. But if we're saying some version of "DS are Wikipedia rules, just more so", and I believe we should be saying that, I also don't think we need to twist ourselves into knots about a person being aware beforehand. They shouldn't have been doing what they were doing in the first place before getting a DS sanction. There's a reason that things like 1RR are expected to be accompanied by things like page notices but also editors shouldn't be edit warring and having a different brightline (1 vs 3) doesn't change that core expectation, to pick one example. By explicitly noting that lack of AWARENESS is appealable we also provide a safeguard. This is especially true because I support lowering the level of consensus required for a successful appeal from "clear and substantial consensus" to "clear consensus" and in providing clear standards of review for appeals.If we're going to presume AWARENESS we do need to make sure that the alerts we're giving work. So I believe there should be new template language, including standardized section headers and that only an UNINVOLVED editor or administrator may place an alert. There is a tension between scaring off editors and getting them pay attention to a template. I believe the name DS itself should change to be more informative and hopefully less scary and confusing. To further help, I believe we should use a two-template solution. A template the editor gets when they first start editing DS (in any topic), and get their first alert, should be an introduction which truly explains DS. It should have pre-designated section headings rather than whatever name an particular editor decides. They would then get a shorter alert when they first start editing other DS areas reminding them that DS exists and that this new area is also covered by the DS rules. Beyond that there should be some recognition that the alert is always going to feel somewhat like a rebuke, hence the change to only allow subsequent alerts to be placed by an UNINVOLVED editor and by providing a place that editors getting an alert may ask questions of 3rd parties instead of just the person who placed the template.There are a lot more details that go with all this and some more explanations that go with all this. I hope that the current DS drafters, L235, Captain Eek, and Wugapodes, will choose to bring forward something close to what I've outlined above as I think it's responsive to what we heard from a number of editors during our DS consultation. I will again acknowledge that I don't really address what Jayron is asking here because I think providing those answers for a system that needs change is less productive than just doing the changes that should happen. Barkeep49 (talk) 15:15, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
Motions
Requests for enforcement
SPECIFICO
SPECIFICO is warned to be more civil in the American Politics topic area and Wikipedia more generally. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 14:38, 25 May 2022 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning SPECIFICO
Notes
To provide context to the above, I have repeatedly asked the user to retract their accusations of meatpuppetry and they've refused to do so. This all spurred from my response to a request on WP:RFCLOSE in which I closed a discussion on the article talk page. SPECIFICO has repeatedly made false allegations that I am acting as a meatpuppet of Iamreallygoodatcheckers, refused to strike that characterization or apologize, and then baselessly made allegations on an article talk page that I violated discretionary sanctions by editing a page to which they clearly do not apply. It's frankly uncivil at this point and, while I am someone who generally enjoys wading through discussions and writing closing summaries of complex RfCs, this sort of uncivil behavior towards an uninvolved closer that stems from a content dispute in which SPECIFICO is a party has driven me here to request that the user be given a final warning on civility and casting aspersions in the WP:AP2 topic area.
Discussion concerning SPECIFICOStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by SPECIFICOAs I've said elsewhere, I stupidly misused the term "meatpuppeting", which I later looked up and learned did not apply to this situation. However, I explained in some detail the concerns I had about what I feel was OP's undue endorsement of Chex' viewpoint on this issue both in the RfC close and in OP's subsequent creation at Chex' request of a redundant "consensus 58" incorporating the (IMO) flaws of OP's close, when there was no new consensus. So if an apology will resolove this, Hawk you have my apology for using that term "meatpuppeting". SPECIFICO talk 15:14, 12 May 2022 (UTC) Aside from reading that Ernie says, w/o evidence that I'm "sneaky" and that North remembers something unspecified from a decade back, as does G, I am not seeing anything sanction-worthy or anything regrettable aside from my misuse of MEATPUPPET, for which I've abjectly apologized. Frankly, the closer and Chex were rather unresponsive to a direct concern about the content and their editing of it and I thought trying to identify my concern (which I bungled after Hawk doubled down) was a better move than tying up editor resources by requesting a close review on a minor matter. SPECIFICO talk 23:21, 12 May 2022 (UTC) I hope everyone here actually follows the links and reviews the threads that show the content dispute referenced by @CutePeach: so as to properly evaluate its relevance to this complaint. (BTW, yes, WSJ is a corporate affiliate of the NY Post and yes that is a matter of mainstream concern, e.g. [3] [4]. Thank you, SpaceX, for providing context to some of the other discussion here. It's good example of why the context needs to be independently researched by all of us reading noticeboard postings, and I hope all assertions in this thread will be similarly scrutinized by all who care. SPECIFICO talk 14:52, 14 May 2022 (UTC) @Seraphimbade and El C: With due respect for your volunteer efforts, I am at a loss to see any documented basis for your repeated assertions that I am habitiually uncivil let alone that my contuing participation at AP articles is or would be disruptive to article content or talk page collaboration. We all presume you are not merely counting heads on this thread or taking at face value various assertions without thoroughly investigating the context. Checkers self-describes a young and inexperienced editor, so nobody should be surprised that he has at times been overly insistent on talk page threads in ways that have been pointed out to him by various editors, not just by me. I've given him some good advice on other modes of pursuing his views, and he has adopted some of what I'v'e told him in the past. In the present case, I would have hoped that you Admins looked on his talk page when he commented here. His misunderstanding of WP:TE and the confusion between Sealion and WP:Sealion that led to him mistakenly accusing me of attacking him have been fully hashed out. Yes when he was starting out here,he was IMO sealioning and tendentiously repeating views after they'd failed to achieve consusus. I advised him on that on at least two occasions and explained to him how he could use sitewide noticeboards like BLPN and Close Review to ensure that his views were fully considered. On the occasion he As I told him, I had no intention of reporting that for enforcement. I would be disappointed if either of you Admins, in light of the context, would conclude that going to his user talk to raise that issue away from the article pages was unusual or outside of WP norms or agree with his feeling that I was threatening him when I made a point of telling him I was not going to seek enforcement. Looking at that TE thread he cites in his comment below, please consider, Admins, whether you agree with his asssertion that I did not identify the TE, when I twice stated that it was due to his having gone to the article as soon as the RfC ended, to reintroduce the text for which his RfC sought and failed to get approval. It turned out later, evidently, that Checkers was not aware of the full text of [WP:TE which I then quoted to him on his talk page and for which he thanked me. At any rate, after Hawk's complaint was amicably resolved between the two of us, this thread now appears to be turning to undocumented assertions of a serious ongoing problem. The two most active and experienced AP content editors who've commented have disagreed with that view. Of course Admins have the authority to sanction in the DS areas without waiting for an AE filing, but the community expects such actions to be based on documentation and reasoned evaluation. AE has been an acknowledged work in progress for the community, with Arbcom well into the second year of working on improvements. Along with the necessary sanctions on clearly bad actors, there have also been too many questionable decisions that have led to the retirement of some of our best content editors in the AP area after overly aggressive and poorly reasoned applications of DS. Reflecting on the valid portion of the concerns raised here, I think it's clear that (due to IRL reasons and time pressures beyond the scope of this discussion) I have been too careless in my use of links as shorthand for specific complex issues. I misused WP:Sealion instead of Sealion. I referred to WP:TE to an editor who apparently was not fully aware of its text, and I misapplied WP:meatpuppet intending the incorrect meaning that's already been explained and now resolved. So If I were an Admin closing this thread, I would warn SPECIFICO not to rely on links on another user's talk page without also giving a detailed explanation of the issues and why I feel they apply. In my opinion that would be constructive advice worth giving and following. I don't expect to comment further unless I'm asked to respond to a question.. SPECIFICO talk 14:43, 15 May 2022 (UTC) Just a quick further comment concerning the participation of Mr Ernie here. Ernie was banned from participating at AE by @Sandstein: in this diff due to behavior similar to what he's done in this thread. Sandstein later granted Ernie's appeal based on Ernie's statements that he would not repeat such behavior and further that he did not even intend to participate at AE, here. Ernie regularly appears at various pages to support sanctions against me, but given the above, I was surprised to see him appear on this thread at AE, with off-topic disparagement ("sneaky") and the several comments about me and Assange. SPECIFICO talk 01:54, 19 May 2022 (UTC) Statement by User:IamreallygoodatcheckersI have been interacting with SPECIFICO for some time now (mainly at Talk:Donald Trump), and while much of it has been fine, I have definitely experienced some of SPECIFCO's uncivil behavior. I've usually tried to give them the benefit of the doubt and just ignore it, but their uncivil behavior has in fact caused me some deal of anxiety and frustration, which has created a toxic environment in areas surrounding American politics. The following comments concern this discussion: User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers/Archive 2#WP:NPA at Trump talk. On March 4th they left an accusation on my talk page with no sort of evidence, such as diffs, accusing me of violation WP:NPA. I responded saying that I had done not such thing. In that same thread, Mr Ernie warned them about providing unevidenced allegations. SPECIFICO made no response to mine or Ernies comments. On March 6th, SPECFICO accused me of WP:Casting aspersions, this time providing this diff. [5] Now this is a response I had made on the Trump talk page after SPECIFICO had accused me of WP:SEALION, a redirect to WP:Civil POV pushing, here. [6] With this diff SPECIFICO, says that I casted aspersions and assuring the links (WP:SEALION and WP:Civil POV pushing) are not the same. Now these links very much are the same, just click them if you don't believe me. I and Mr. Ernie again told them to stop with the behavior and that SEALION is the same as Civil POV pushing. SPECIFICO only admitted they were wrong about SEALION and Civil POV pushing after Valjean explained to them that they did in fact cite WP:SEALION against me. However, SPECICIO continued to say that "the problem remained," and that I was sealioning from their understanding. They did not provide any evidence to back these allegations, a fact that is pointed out by Ernie in the discussion. I never have received any form of apology or comment striking (after my request) for SPECICO's false allegations against me of NPA. Relevant diffs: [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] SPECICO has done this to me again just this week on my talk page (see User talk:Iamreallygoodatcheckers#WP:TE at Donald Trump). They accuse me with no evidence of any kind with WP:TE and "overly-insistent and POV editing at AP and BLP articles." They say they are "unlikely to do the work to document" my behavior, which I see as justification on their behalf of providing zero evidence. They also say my behavior is "worthy of a topic ban" in their view. I tell them to please stop with their behavior and that it's caused me stress and created a toxic environment. I have yet to receive any response from them. As detailed above by Mhawk, they have also accused me and Mhawk of meatpuppetting together, an allegation with no evidence. All this is WP:Casting aspersions and potentially WP:HOUND. Relevant diffs: [13] [14] Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 03:54, 10 May 2022 (UTC) At SPECIFICO's request, I'm linking this discussion that provides further context on some of concerns above. Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 03:47, 15 May 2022 (UTC) Statement by Mr ErnieSPECIFICO violated DS at Julian Assange, another politically charged article, a few weeks ago. There is a section on their talk page with the details of that here. What I want to highlight is one of the reverts ([15]), removed content that was decided by RFC consensus just a few weeks ago, with SPECIFICO's participation. Note the RFC was required in part due to SPECIFICO's removal of the content before the RFC. Read the edit summary in the removal after RFC consensus - "NOTNEWS - not a significant fact about Assange No ongoing coverage in his life story." This is a sneaky move to remove content they simply just don't like, and SPECIFICO didn't seem interested to explain it in the linked discussion on their talk page. I don't think another final warning will do any good here - just check the sanction log. In addition to what the OP linked, SPECIFICO received a short topic ban from Joe Biden in 2020, a short topic ban from Julian Assange in 2020, a reminder and a warning in 2018, "Anti-Filibuster, Courtesy in reporting, No personal comments, and Thicker skin sanctions" in 2018, a restriction in 2017, and a warning in 2017. A standard AmPol2 topic ban should do, and I'll support the removal of it when SPECIFICO simply agrees to edit more collaboratively. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:46, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
Statement by Sideswipe9th (SPECIFICO)I don't have much to add, only that I believe this ds/alert issued by SPECIFICO could be construed as reactive to the content dispute between SPECIFICO and Mhawk10. Also from what I can tell, the 1RR/24-hour BRD page restriction point is erroneous with respect to Talk:Donald Trump, as having checked the enforcement log entry that sanction only applies (as far as I can see) to the main article and not the associated article talk pages. From what I've seen elsewhere in the enforcement log, when an article and its talk page is subject to sanctions there is usually some text like Statement by Space4Time3Continuum2xSeems like a spat arising from a content dispute between two of the most active editors on Donald Trump that could and should be settled among the editors involved. (The content dispute appears to have been solved for now, with none of us getting our preferred versions.) Meatpuppeting — I don’t think that applies, but the term seems to be directed more against Iamreallygoodatcheckers than Mhawk10 who got caught in the middle of the dispute. The suggested indefinite topic ban from American politics seems over the top. I don’t see the relevance of two sanctions in other areas eight years ago, or how this is worse than this incident of disruptive behavior which resulted in zero action. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 11:31, 11 May 2022 (UTC) Adding context to the warning on June 3, 2018, FWIW. I doubt that any editor other than Winkelvi would have taken that interaction to the noticeboard after a discussion lasting exactly one hour (well, maybe D. Creish, banned from all Wikimedia sites since March 2019 and one of the other editors involved in the edits from this one to this one, would have). Winkelvi racked up 13 blocks between 2014 and 2018, including an indefinite one in November 2018. Their request to unblock was denied in 2019. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 13:27, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
Statement by ValjeanI agree with Space4Time3Continuum2x that an indef topic ban is way over the top, and such old incidents should not be entered as evidence. The real issue is civility, and a warning is justified. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 02:48, 12 May 2022 (UTC) I support the concerns from Mhawk10 and Nableezy. An AmPol topic ban is over-the-top, whereas a civility parole would deal with the real problem. Considering the apology has been accepted, we're in a situation that amounts to the police dropping all charges, but the judge still issuing a death sentence, rather than a fine (a civility parole). One should also keep in mind that previous accusations made by one of the most tendentious editors we've seen in the AmPol area, who has been banned, should not be counted against SPECIFICO. We should never side with the bad faith accusations from such people. Being attacked by such a person is a badge of honor that shows that SPECIFICO must have been doing something right, rather than wrong. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 14:50, 14 May 2022 (UTC) Statement by North8000I've not had interactions since many many years ago. But back then was similar to the above. Including IMO false accusations as a tactic in AP debates. Something to lessen the grief for other editors and help SPECIFICO Wiki-evolve would be good. North8000 (talk) 21:45, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
Comment by GoodDayFWIW what exactly is an AP topic ban? I assuming it's American politics. GoodDay (talk) 20:01, 13 May 2022 (UTC) Statement by NableezyTheres been an apology, the apology has been accepted, the person who requested sanctions says an indef topic ban is over the top, but thats what is seriously being discussed below. That is the cause of this complaint has been resolved according to the person who opened it, and they say the proposed sanction even prior to the apology was overkill, and yet that appears to be what yall going to settle on. Seems a bit extreme. Just a wee bit. nableezy - 20:41, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
Statement by CutePeachI encountered SPECIFICO when I created Hunter Biden laptop controversy to separate the issue from the Biden–Ukraine conspiracy theory article, and I was less than impressed with this editor's deletion of WP:DUE content [28] [29] [30] - while an AFD was ongoing [31]. I found SPECIFICO's interpretation of WP:BLP and WP:NOR to be highly egregious in the TP discussions [32], and they led to the deletion of the page, which has since been restored. Furthermore, their repeated attempts to call WSJ an "affiliate" of NY Post and TP arguments to put this unsourced allegation in wikivoice - was not only a violation of WP:NOR, but also WP:RS. I refuse to believe that an editor as experienced as SPECIFICO was unaware then, as he seemingly is now, of such core policies and how they are applied. As harsh as the topic ban may seem, I think this incident and those mentioned by Mhawk10 and Mr Ernie, show that this editor is unable to leave their POV at the door when editing AP articles. I think an indef topic ban from AP may be what is required to communicate to experienced editors that such conduct can and will be sanctioned. As a valued member of the community, I'm sure SPECIFICO's appeal will be accepted after six months. CutePeach (talk) 10:10, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning SPECIFICO
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Director of Editing and New Content
Director of Editing and New Content blocked indef (with TPA revoked) as a normal admin action. El_C 19:19, 23 May 2022 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning Director of Editing and New Content
New editor (with less that 500 edits) edit-wars to say that hospital in the Israeli-occupied areas is "in Israel". They removes alert I gave them, when I gave them a "last warning", they removed that, too. They obviously are not listening to me, perhaps they will listen to admins? Huldra (talk) 21:23, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
Discussion concerning Director of Editing and New ContentStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by Director of Editing and New ContentStatement by SelfstudierAccount is blocked now anyway (username vio). Selfstudier (talk) 21:44, 22 May 2022 (UTC) Statement by OrangemikeAfter being blocked as a role account (a job title is not an acceptable username), user "responded" by deleting the block notice, as well as prior warning content. I then revoked talk page access. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:02, 23 May 2022 (UTC) Result concerning Director of Editing and New Content
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Abrvagl
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Request concerning Abrvagl
- User who is submitting this request for enforcement
- ZaniGiovanni (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 10:03, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
- User against whom enforcement is requested
- Abrvagl (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Search DS alerts: in user talk history • in system log
- Sanction or remedy to be enforced
- Wikipedia:ARBAA2
- Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
- 14 April 2022 removes sourced information from lead
- 16 April 2022 removes sourced information from lead
- 29 April 2022 removes sourced information from lead
- 22 May 2022 removes sourced information from lead
- Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any
- If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)
- Alerted about discretionary sanctions in the area of conflict in the last twelve months, on 26 January 2022
- Additional comments by editor filing complaint
Abrvagl repeatedly tries to remove the 2020 Ganja missile attacks being a response for the 2020 bombardment of Stepanakert from the lead, despite there being multiple sources confirming this, as has been explained to Abrvagl many time on the talk page.
Abrvagl also tries to add expressions of MOS:DOUBT further down in the article by writing, "According the Armenian sources, Ganja was hit in response to...". Eurasianet is clearly not an Armenian source, and the article leaves no doubt about what Abrvagl is trying to dispute: "The conflict zone in the fighting between Armenia and Azerbaijan continued to expand, as Azerbaijani forces have hit the de facto capital of Nagorno-Karabakh, Stepanakert, and Armenian forces responded by hitting Azerbaijan’s second-largest city, Ganja."[38].
The constant WP:SEALIONING of the issue on the talk page, edit-wars, and refusal to drop the stick (doing the same WP:TENDENTIOUS edit even after a month) leaves me no choice but to bring this to AE's attention. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 10:03, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but what in the hell was this 7000+byte wall of text? For now, I'll just address these accusations against me.
ZaniGiovanni previously was warned/banned for edit-wars [58] and personal attacks[59][60]. I observe the same behaviour against me:
- You're literally showing my first block when I registered here a year ago and a 72hour block, in an AE case against you, in an attempt to achieve something / browbeat me? I'm so confused.
1. 17:21 I did revert as no consensus was reached. 9 minutes later, at 17:30 uninvolved Zani created a topic on talk-page with +1,879 bytes of text, where he blamed me edit-wars and disruptive editing.
- And you were edit-warring and being disruptive, not that it's the first time. That talk consensus is still against you btw, Talk:Melik_Haykaz_Palace#Azerbaijani_sources_refer.
2. Here, I raised issue, as material is not anti-sentiment related. I tried to reach a consensus, but Zani responded: You need to finally read that policy and understand that Wikipedia is not a repository for bullshit.
- Honestly, this is getting ridiculous. You pick one of my comments, no not even a comment, part of my comment from an overall discussion and present in an AE case against you for what purpose exactly? Do you think I'm going to walk away my statment or something? Yeah, Wikipedia isn't a repository for bullshit and I made my reference clear in the full comment (hint: extremely undue gov claim).
ZaniGiovanni shadows me and challenges edits without solid justification. I put efforts to reach consensus, but it mostly ends with him ignoring or me taking obvious edits to the dispute resolution boards. Here [61] Zani argued against the simple BLP issue. Continued to argue even after BLPN[62]. He stopped only after warned[63]
- Another example of god knows what that you already showed in ANI against me that resulted in nothing Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1092#User:_ZaniGiovanni. I'm not even going to answer this again. If anyone is interested, please check my first comment in that thread (5th point).
Here [64] is another example, where I provided detailed explanation, Zani replied with irrelevant comment and ignoring me since then, although I reminded him a number of times.
- Nobody is interested in your baseless opinions about random talk discussions in here, you need to understand that. I don't plan to reply to every WP:CRUSH comment, and I explained myself pretty clearly in my last comment. You even brought that source in RSN 3 days ago Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Hyperallergic, what is the relevance of it here? Are you just throwing as much pile at me as possible at this point?
Here[65] many editors reached a consensus, but due to Zani this simple edit went through DRN[66] and RfC[67]. Zani never commented to RFC, which supports position of majotiry
- What the actual f*ck is happening, what is this essay of rants even suppose to mean? There was a discussion, Abrvagl opened a DRN about it [39] and it resulted in an RfC [40]. Now what are you trying to say again, that I MUST comment in that RfC? To be honest, I'm not interested about that discussion anymore and consensus seems to be formed in that RfC. Now why is this something weirdly being brought up against me, hello?
- Tbh I feel like gaslighted by all of these rants against me when I simply showed tendentious edits / edit-wars of Abrvagl and wanted to see a simple and valid explanation. Instead, I received absolute nonsense rants against me in a browbeat attempt and belittling of the actual report against Abrvagl, more than half of those rants were already tried and failed in the past. This editor is too nationalistic for AA topic area, like other editors have also suggested (diff1, diff2, diff3). This rant by them is just another sentiment to it. Sorry for the long comment, most of it was just replies to this slanderous nonsense against me. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 20:18, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'll address the underwhelming explanations by Abrvagl now:
The statement was added by banned[42] user Steverci. Diff:[43]. Steverci added the statement without consensus: RfC and DnR.
- Gross misinterpretation of events. Looking at the RfC, it had no consensus against or for anything, it was literally closed as "Consensus is that this RfC did not conform to WP:RFCNEUTRAL"[41]. This doesn't prohibit users to edit the article (btw a user's ban after 7 fucking months of that edit doesn't mean anything, another attempt to belittle something you disagree with) and has nothing to do with the stable version of the article for more than a year that you changed without consensus and edit-warred over a month.
- Everything you show below is your attempts of overwriting stable version of the article without any achieved consensus. On their last revert, Abrvagl is casting doubt on a third-party source and attributing statement from it to "Armenian sources" [42]. Clear example of WP:TENDENTIOUS edit and this user's continual disruption of the article.
The majority of reports didnot claim that Ganja was bombarded specifically in response to Stepenakert bombardment and cherripicking a single source and presenting it as fact is a violation of WP:WEIGHT/WP:Neutral.
- This doesn't even make sense. Do you have a source disputing Eurasianet? The article makes it very clear that 2020 Ganja missile attacks was a response to 2020 bombardment of Stepanakert, "The conflict zone in the fighting between Armenia and Azerbaijan continued to expand, as Azerbaijani forces have hit the de facto capital of Nagorno-Karabakh, Stepanakert, and Armenian forces responded by hitting Azerbaijan’s second-largest city, Ganja.", and you have been explained this many times in the talk discussion. Third party user in talk also disagrees with you [43].
- Your misinterpretation of events and unreasonable justifications for your edit-wars and reverts of stable version aren't convincing. Coupled with the groundless and disgusting rant you posted against me below this "explanation", which btw counts as a personal attack just like all baseless rants/accusations do, I firmly believe that this user isn't qualified to edit in a very contentious topic area like AA2. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 10:37, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
- Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested
Discussion concerning Abrvagl
Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.
Statement by Abrvagl
I NEVER removed sourced information.
1.14 April 2022[44][45] I rephrased the statement. Reverted by ZaniGiovanni[46].
2.16 April 2022, I reviewed the case in details, and identified following:
- The statement was added by banned[47] user Steverci. Diff:[48]. Steverci added the statement without consensus: RfC and DnR.
- Provided sources didnot support the statement. All sources are either primary or just quotes primary sources. The statement is WP:SYNTH and not in line with WP:NPOV.
Considering the above, I removed the statement, and in detail explained myself on the talk-page[49]. Zani replied [50], but his reply was ignoring my points. So I wrote even more detailed explanation for him [51]. Number of times I tried to get solid justifications and answers to my concerns from the Zani [52] [53] [54], but Zani continued repeating The Armenian sources said it was a response to the Stepanakert shelling, and third party sources covered what the Armenian sources said
although I had proved that opposite. Then Zani started ignoring me, and discussions stopped.
3. On 29 April 2022[55] I reviewed case again, ensured that statement definitely violates Wikipedia policies, and removed it again. On 30 April 2022 ZaniReverted edit[56].
4. On 31 April 2022[57] ZaniGiovanni added new source. As new source was supporting the statement partially, I proposed a consensus[58], but Zani ignored me for 3 weeks.
5. On 22 May 2022 I rephrased the statement in line with WP:OR and WP:NPOV and according to last source provided by Zani, in order to reach consensus. Also removed unrelated sources[59]. I left a note on the talk-page[60]. I attributed it to Armenian sources, as an article in the body referring to the Armenian sources.
Then I was going to take it to the NPOV/noticeboard because experts who conducted investigation do not support above statement HRW Amnesty. The majority of reports didnot claim that Ganja was bombarded specifically in response to Stepenakert bombardment and cherripicking a single source and presenting it as fact is a violation of WP:WEIGHT/WP:Neutral.
ZaniGiovanni previously was warned/banned for edit-wars [61] and personal attacks[62][63]. I observe the same behaviour against me:
1. 17:21 I did revert as no consensus was reached. 9 minutes later, at 17:30 uninvolved Zani created a topic on talk-page with +1,879 bytes of text, where he blamed me edit-wars and disruptive editing.
2. Here, I raised issue, as material is not anti-sentiment related. I tried to reach a consensus, but Zani responded: You need to finally read that policy and understand that Wikipedia is not a repository for bullshit
.
ZaniGiovanni shadows me and challenges edits without solid justification. I put efforts to reach consensus, but it mostly ends with him ignoring or me taking obvious edits to the dispute resolution boards. Here [64] Zani argued against the simple BLP issue. Continued to argue even after BLPN[65]. He stopped only after warned[66]. Here [67] is another example, where I provided detailed explanation, Zani replied with irrelevant comment and ignoring me since then, although I reminded him a number of times. Here[68] many editors reached a consensus, but due to Zani this simple edit went through DRN[69] and RfC[70]. Zani never commented to RFC, which supports position of majotiry.
Statement by (username)
Result concerning Abrvagl
- This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
RuudVanClerk
RuudVanClerk has been blocked indefinitely for POV-pushing, battleground editing, and misuse of sources. This is an ordinary admin action. Bishonen | tålk 15:23, 25 May 2022 (UTC). |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below. Request concerning RuudVanClerk
RuudVanClerk makes content contributions where the sources consistently fail verification, and whenever the issues are brought up their responses have ranged from deflection to gaslighting. In this edit RuudVanClerk added a reference to Aparna Rao's 1982 book, which is – conveniently – out of print, held by very few libraries, and in a language that not many people in this topic area can read. Unluckily for them, I was able to access a copy of the book and found out it doesn't have anything remotely resembling the statement they were using it to support. When I brought this up on their talk page, their reply didn't address or even acknowledge the problem [71]. They further stated that they have a copy of the book in question, but when I asked them for quotes, their only response was to promptly blank the entire talk page section [72]. All of that was part of the wider disruption they were causing at Peripatetic groups of Afghanistan (I will provide more details if anyone would like to see them.) I've also checked a few of RuudVanClerk's other content additions and all have had verifiability problems at various levels of severity. Here are a few examples:
These are not just the mistakes of a new editor who's still learning the ropes here. As can be seen from their participation in discussions, RuudVanClerk themself always repeats the need for sticking to the sources. I suspect this discrepancy isn't due to CIR so much as to POV. The vast majority of their edits are to do with either the Rajputs, or their antagonistic groups. Invariably, the former are cast in a positive light (the Bengal Sultanate edit above involved the plugging of a minor episode of Rajput glory), while the latter are presented in negative terms (among the examples above: the Afghanistan peripatetics case was part of their push to insert the word "Jat" into the title of this article about a stigmatised social category; the other two involved adding negative content about Sikhs and about a Gujjar). In an effort to keep this report brief, I've kept only the most illustrative events. I'll be happy to provide more context and further diffs if necessary.
[78]. Discussion concerning RuudVanClerkStatements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. Statement by RuudVanClerk(Typing on phone so may be a bit jumbled so do excuse me) The evidence for arbitration enforce is quite weak. In relation to the first point relating to the article, Peripatetic groups of Afghanistan, the Aparna Rao source itself actually uses Jat in the title itself hence the reason I was in favour of changing the article title. Note the book name: ^ Rao, Aparna (1982). Les Gorbat d'Afghanistan : aspects economiques d'un groupe itinerant "Jat". Editions Recherche sur les civilisations Rather than disrupting the article when the editor reverted the name, I actually attempted to get a third party to mediate the dispute, see here: [79] In relation to the Bengal Sultanate claim, how is adding a small paragraph with a source disruptive in any way? It’s a different matter if it’s not reliable but that should be taken to the reliable sources noticeboard. In relation to the Dhan Singh article, the source literally says that he possibly incited rioters and looters. In fact following our discussion I actually added possibly to reflect that: [[80]] Your accusations of me glorifying Rajputs are comical but unfortunately also a personal attack on myself. Most of my edits do not even concern Rajputs. You just seem unhappy with my edits but unfortunately for you, Wikipedia is an environment where people will inevitably have differing opinions and it is important that you come to terms with that.RuudVanClerk (talk) 15:24, 24 May 2022 (UTC) I just noticed that a lot of your points are quite general almost like you are trying to pull the wool over the admins eyes. Can you detail what exactly is wrong with this edit on Sikhism in Italy: [[81]] How does this relate to me being a supposedly being a “Rajput supremacist”.RuudVanClerk (talk) 15:31, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
Statement by (username)Result concerning RuudVanClerk
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