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(i've noted that you are resorting to personal attacks and claims instead of actually addressing the sources. Stop that) [[User:Hayras123|Hayras123]] ([[User talk:Hayras123|talk]]) 13:58, 26 December 2017 (UTC) |
(i've noted that you are resorting to personal attacks and claims instead of actually addressing the sources. Stop that) [[User:Hayras123|Hayras123]] ([[User talk:Hayras123|talk]]) 13:58, 26 December 2017 (UTC) |
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:Actually if an RS said "there is a kettle in orbit" you would need a source that says there is not for it to be contested by RS. What you have provided are sources that say that at any given time Afghanistan was not part of the British empire, what you have not done is provided one source that says it was not ever protectorate. The USA was not (at any given point) part of the British empire, or even a protectorate. I supported the text (if not the picture) of your first map, but you have now altered that text. If you are not going to try and compromise then there is not point any further to this discussion, I ask for it to be closed as no consensus.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 14:06, 26 December 2017 (UTC) |
:Actually if an RS said "there is a kettle in orbit" you would need a source that says there is not for it to be contested by RS. What you have provided are sources that say that at any given time Afghanistan was not part of the British empire, what you have not done is provided one source that says it was not ever protectorate. The USA was not (at any given point) part of the British empire, or even a protectorate. I supported the text (if not the picture) of your first map, but you have now altered that text. If you are not going to try and compromise then there is not point any further to this discussion, I ask for it to be closed as no consensus.[[User:Slatersteven|Slatersteven]] ([[User talk:Slatersteven|talk]]) 14:06, 26 December 2017 (UTC) |
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:::The only compromise is that this map is used [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Anachronous_map_of_the_British_Empire.png] along with the caption " An anachronous map of all the official territorial claims of the British Empire that it ever held |
:::The only compromise is that this map is used [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Anachronous_map_of_the_British_Empire.png] along with the caption " An anachronous map of all the official territorial claims of the British Empire that it ever held." or "A map of all dominions, princely states, protectorates, mandates and other dependencies of the British empire". [[User:Hayras123|Hayras123]] ([[User talk:Hayras123|talk]]) 14:13, 26 December 2017 (UTC) |
Revision as of 14:13, 26 December 2017
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Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 |
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 4 sections are present. |
Demographics section
Some of the numbers in the Demographics section don't make sense. Specifically:
- for 1814, the article states that every resident of British North America was white. This is highly dubious.
- for 1901, the numbers for Africa differ by about 8.5 million. Celia Homeford (talk) 09:22, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
- 1, maybe not. It says we do not know.
- 2, Differ from what?Slatersteven (talk) 09:27, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
- 1. No, it said there were 486,146 people in total in British North America in the first table, and 486,146 white people in British North America in the second table, with an unknown number of non-white people. So either one of the figures is incorrect, or the layout of the table is misleading. I have corrected the table.
- 33.5 million non-whites and 1 million whites (second table) do not add up to 43 million in total (first table).
- These aren't the only problems you have 5,638,944 people in the Asian colonies in 1901 in the first table and only 5,144,954 in the second table: half a million people are missing. Celia Homeford (talk) 10:22, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
- Ahhh yes, I see.Slatersteven (talk) 10:28, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
British Empire (1583 - present)
Doesn't the British Empire technically still exist due to there still being colonies albeit with different names? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Danishjaveed (talk • contribs) 03:37, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
- It's a complex issue, one can argue that (technically) the queen was only ever "empress of India" and thus the "British Empire" ceased to exist in 1947. This is because (apart from the afore mentioned title) the British empire was never a true legal entity.Slatersteven (talk) 09:45, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
- It depends on how the Empire is defined. In France, Germany, Russia, Austria, etc., there was a declaration that the king or leader had become an emperor and in the end an abdication. In Britain there was a gradual move to use the term empire, but no official declaration, followed in the late 20th century to the term falling out of use. Victoria became Empress of India, which gave her the same status as the European emperors, but she was never the "British Empress." So there is no agreement about when the empire began or ended or how far it extended. Also, the independent members of the Commonwealth were still considered part of the empire. In 1959, Queen Elizabeth said Canada in 1867 became the "first independent country within the British Empire.... So, it also marks the beginning of that free association of independent states which is now known as the Commonwealth of Nations."
- In 1946, the UK agreed with the UN in 1946 that the colonies should not longer be treated as colonies, and the term was dropped in 1983. The courts have determined that the queen of each territory is a separate person from the Queen of the UK.
- TFD (talk) 14:30, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
- The 1532 Statute in Restraint of Appeals, which declared Britain to legally be an Empire was repealed in 1969. The styling of the monarch as an emperor was, as noted above, not used before Victoria was declared Empress of India in 1876, and was dropped after India became independent in 1947; but Britain had been routinely described as an empire since the 16th century. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:17, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
- It declared the realm of England to be an empire, the purpose of which was to deny papal authority. But it makes no reference to a British empire or of the King's other realms. TFD (talk) 00:39, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
- Quite so. Back then "other realms" referred to Scotland, so Nicholas Bodrugan could write in 1548 of "the whole Empire and name of great Briteigne." The claim of the English monarchs to be rulers of Scotland was actualised in 1603, and the realm officially became Great Britain in 1707. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:46, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
- I don't think that is right. The claim was that Scotland was part of the realm of England.[1] The King's other realms in 1532 were France (at least the claim was made), Ireland, the Channel Islands, and the Isle of Man. But they were not part of the Empire because they were not part of the Realm. TFD (talk) 14:54, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
- Quite so. Back then "other realms" referred to Scotland, so Nicholas Bodrugan could write in 1548 of "the whole Empire and name of great Briteigne." The claim of the English monarchs to be rulers of Scotland was actualised in 1603, and the realm officially became Great Britain in 1707. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:46, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
- It declared the realm of England to be an empire, the purpose of which was to deny papal authority. But it makes no reference to a British empire or of the King's other realms. TFD (talk) 00:39, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
- The 1532 Statute in Restraint of Appeals, which declared Britain to legally be an Empire was repealed in 1969. The styling of the monarch as an emperor was, as noted above, not used before Victoria was declared Empress of India in 1876, and was dropped after India became independent in 1947; but Britain had been routinely described as an empire since the 16th century. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:17, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
- Victoria was 'Empress of India' because the Maharajas of the princely states owed allegiance to her. George V, Edward VIII, and George VI were all 'Emperor of India' for the same reason until Indian Independence.
- An 'Emperor' or 'Empress' is someone who kings or queens owe allegiance to.
- But not before 1876. The reason? The declaration of the German Empire in 1870 meant that Victoria, Princess Royal, the daughter of Queen Victoria, might eventually outrank her, something Victoria wanted to avoid. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:28, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
- Actually 1876 was the year that Indians became British subjects. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.150.10.249 (talk) 10:20, 29 November 2017 (UTC)
Peak of British power
Would it be worth while to include a source on how during the 1870s Britain was at it's peak economically in terms of percent of world's output? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nickboy000 (talk • contribs) 21:09, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
- Can you explain why this might be of benefit?Slatersteven (talk) 10:50, 9 November 2017 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 10 November 2017
hi 209.190.225.66 (talk) 19:02, 10 November 2017 (UTC) And you edit is?Slatersteven (talk) 19:07, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:12, 10 November 2017 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 19 November 2017
Change the map on the top right of the page as it seems to be inaccurate, Afghanistan was invaded by the British but never a part of their Empire or annexed. Sunni22 (talk) 17:14, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
- It was a British protectorate before 1919 when it became independent. TFD (talk) 19:50, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
Afghanistan
Afghanistan was never part of the British empire and so, cannot be included in the map. Every source mentions Afghanistan being distinct from the British empire. They always refer to Afghanistan as the "buffer state" between the British and Russia. All sources mention this:
In the title of this book:
p.89 of this book
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=_sJcAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA89&dq=Buffer+state+Afghanistan&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiWrev5nKTYAhVJzLwKHaYeBqkQ6AEIOzAE#v=onepage&q=Buffer%20state%20Afghanistan&f=false p 35-36 of this book https://books.google.com.au/books?id=Ge5FyzFLGHoC&pg=PA35&dq=afghanistan+was+never+part+of+British+empire&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiHx9Tmm6TYAhXJf7wKHY2uCLoQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q=afghanistan%20was%20never%20part%20of%20British%20empire&f=false Hayras123 (talk) 03:34, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
- Your source says that Britain gave independence to Afghanistan in 1919. How could they do that were it not part of the Empire TFD (talk) 03:56, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
- @The Four Deuces: Independence from British control. Afghanistan was never a part of the British empire. Afghanistan achieved independence from its protected state} status, not from the British empire. No source in history mentions Afghanistan as a part of the British empire, none. Please provide a source that mentions Afghanistan explicitly as part of British India or the British empire
"(Afghanistan) a large piece of real estate that represented distance between the British empire and Russia
Afghanistan occupies the almost unique position of being an absolutely independent kingdom and at the same time a protected state
Afghanistan was not part of the British empire
Afghanistan was not part of the British Empire after three bloody wars
I could go on, and there are alot more sources. Hayras123 (talk) 09:49, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
- [2] So yes it was partially part of the British empire, [3] at one time we had actually conquered it (and even and a man in charge in Kabul). Of course it depends on what you mean by (part of the empire).Slatersteven (talk) 10:38, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
- I am also very dubious of any source talking about the British in Afghanistan that do not mention Elphinstone, the period when Britannia occupied the country.Slatersteven (talk) 10:43, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
- Elphinstone himself never claimed Afghanistan was or was not part of Afghanistan. No sources say of him mentioning either side. Also, no, Afghanistan was never part of the British empire. Even your included links don't mention anywhere that Afghanistan was part of the British empire. Who was this so called 'man in charge of Kabul'. To reiterate, all proven sources state that Afghanistan was never part of the British empire. Hayras123 (talk) 11:21, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
- Those are not persuasive sources. A current news report about Afghan Independence Day for example. Do you have any books about the British Empire by historians or lawyers? All the sources agree that it was a British protected state and its citizens were British protected persons and it became independent of the UK in 1919. TFD (talk) 22:50, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
- @The Four Deuces:I included a tonne of extra sources but that seems to have not uploaded. So I'll repeat, these books are from historians. They show that Afghanistan was never part of the British empire. However, logically speaking, you should provide sources that Afghanistan was part of the British empire. The most the British empire had was control over Afghanistan's foreign affairs.
A protected state is a territory under a ruler which enjoys Her Britannic Majesty's protection, over whose foreign affairs she exercises control, but in respect of whose internal affairs she does not exercise jurisdiction.
During the ensuing conflict, the war-weary British relinquished their control over Afghan foreign affairs by signing the Treaty of Rawalpindi in August 1919.
Amanullah wanted the attainment of Afghanistan's political independence in foreign affairs
King written the British viceroy, rejecting British control of his foreign policy and declaring Afghanistan Mignon fully independent
The second round of Anglo- Afghan negotiations for final peace were inconclusive. Both sides were prepared to agree on Afghan independence in foreign affairs
Although both sides were ready to agree on Afghan independence in foreign affairs
Those are not good sources? Furthermore, no maps from the time ever showed Afghanistan as part of the British empire 1855 [4] 1915, from the date and your claims this map should have Afghanistan, but it doesn't: [5] And none of these maps have Afghanistan either [6] [7] [8] But why am I going on about this anyway? Logically speaking you should be providing sources that Afghanistan was part of the British empire, not the other way around. Hayras123 (talk) 07:42, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
- If you want to change the caption of the current map to "The British empire at its greatest extent, including all protectorate, princely states, dominions, mandates and other dependencies" I have no issue with that (Afghanistan was a protectorate) but I object to a map that does not show all protectorates or countries that were protectorates at one time.Slatersteven (talk) 10:11, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
- Afghanistan was a protected state, not a protectorate. A protectorate itself isn't even part of the British empire but a protected state is even more independent, where Britain at most had only foreign control. The map is wrong, and another improved version must be added instead. I believe I have included more than 10 sources so far, and no sources have been mentioned that Afghanistan was part of the British empire.
The only acceptable map that shows all of Britain's territories is this map [9] Hayras123 (talk) 11:43, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
- Afghanistan was a protectorate. [10], [11].Slatersteven (talk) 11:51, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
- And can you please learn to indent, it is making this very had top follow.Slatersteven (talk) 11:52, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
- Can you learn to actually read sources. This map disagrees with you [12]
and this one [13] just typing in "Afghanistan was a protectorate" into google and then looking for books doesn't make it automatically correct, especially when every other source disagrees with you.
Afghanistan occupies the almost unique position of being an absolutely independent kingdom and at the same time a protected state
But the British continued to look upon Afghanistan as a protected state.
To reiterate, this is the best map to use, as it correctly illustrates all British held territories: [14]
- And do you not understand that one of those maps do not show the USA as British territory, and thus clearly reflect the extent of the British empire, at a given date. Also none of your sources say it was never a protectorate, just that at a given time it had a unique status.Slatersteven (talk) 13:18, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
- If your eyes do not see any better, it clearly mentions Afghanistan as a protected state not a protectorate:
Afghanistan occupies the almost unique position of being an absolutely independent kingdom and at the same time a protected state
But the British continued to look upon Afghanistan as a protected state.
And for god's sake, the map I'm arguing to replace the current map clearly shows the US as part of Britain, as the description states; " An anachronous map of all the official territorial claims of the British Empire that it ever held which identifies what type of holding was present on all possessions during their territorial, historical, and/or geographical peak." Do not be apathetic in this regard and actually take a look at the map I want to replace the current map: [15] Hayras123 (talk) 13:23, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
- And that map is not a source for itself. Also that was not the caption you used when you added it (and I note you are now changing it now that is has been shown that at one time Afghanistan was a protectorate. I do loo at the map, and at one time Afghanistan was a protectorate (and no source you have presented contradicts that). And I do not think apathetic means what you think it means. Also keep it polite and do not comment on other users. Now either present a source that explicitly says Afghanistan was never a British protectorate at any time or stop this.Slatersteven (talk) 13:43, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
- Prove to me that their isn't a kettle right now in orbit around the sun
^That is the sort of logic you are using right now. I gave you sources that Afghanistan was a protected state, many of them in fact and have shown you sources that Afghanistan was not part of the British empire. Logially speaking you should provide a source that Afghanistan was a part of the British empire but you have failed on every reply. You are carrying on a narrative that is grounded only in whatever thought process is going on in your mind. Provide a source that Afghanistan was a part of the British empire, and if not, you have absolutely no right to be altering the truth. This is what you are exhibiting right now [16]. Also, it seems like you are attacking me by giving false claims that I have been altering the captions of the pictures. It only takes a few clicks to get to the history page of that file on commons [17]. This map is the only correct map [18] (i've noted that you are resorting to personal attacks and claims instead of actually addressing the sources. Stop that) Hayras123 (talk) 13:58, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
- Actually if an RS said "there is a kettle in orbit" you would need a source that says there is not for it to be contested by RS. What you have provided are sources that say that at any given time Afghanistan was not part of the British empire, what you have not done is provided one source that says it was not ever protectorate. The USA was not (at any given point) part of the British empire, or even a protectorate. I supported the text (if not the picture) of your first map, but you have now altered that text. If you are not going to try and compromise then there is not point any further to this discussion, I ask for it to be closed as no consensus.Slatersteven (talk) 14:06, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
- The only compromise is that this map is used [19] along with the caption " An anachronous map of all the official territorial claims of the British Empire that it ever held." or "A map of all dominions, princely states, protectorates, mandates and other dependencies of the British empire". Hayras123 (talk) 14:13, 26 December 2017 (UTC)
- ^ https://books.google.com.au/books?id=Ge5FyzFLGHoC&pg=PA35&dq=afghanistan+was+never+part+of+British+empire&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiHx9Tmm6TYAhXJf7wKHY2uCLoQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q=afghanistan%20was%20never%20part%20of%20British%20empire&f=false
- ^ https://books.google.com.au/books?id=LCj8dzn0KIMC&pg=PA102&lpg=PA102&dq=afghanistan+protected+state&source=bl&ots=GpkorcnF6A&sig=2mbP5KEk6uZ4m_ABMzL0SYiumDE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzgsXY76TYAhVEwrwKHcNoDZYQ6AEIPTAC#v=onepage&q=afghanistan%20protected%20state&f=false
- ^ https://books.google.com.au/books?id=Ut2gAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA149&dq=%22Afghanistan+was+not+part+of+the+British+empire%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjK6KGn8KTYAhUBfLwKHSS0CqMQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=%22Afghanistan%20was%20not%20part%20of%20the%20British%20empire%22&f=false
- ^ http://www.newsinformer.ga/2017/08/very-high-security-as-afghanistan-marks.html
- ^ The Statesman's Yearbook 1967-1968
- ^ https://books.google.com.au/books?isbn=0739765531
- ^ https://books.google.com.au/books?isbn=1134120826
- ^ https://books.google.com.au/books?isbn=1426961146
- ^ https://books.google.com.au/books?id=X0CLyC39MEgC&pg=PA42&dq=afghanistan+independence+foreign+affairs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiM99Lok6fYAhVDkJQKHf8bBXkQ6AEIUjAH#v=onepage&q=afghanistan%20independence%20foreign%20affairs&f=false
- ^ https://books.google.com.au/books?isbn=1490714464
- ^ https://books.google.com.au/books?id=LCj8dzn0KIMC&pg=PA102&lpg=PA102&dq=afghanistan+protected+state&source=bl&ots=GpkorcnF6A&sig=2mbP5KEk6uZ4m_ABMzL0SYiumDE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzgsXY76TYAhVEwrwKHcNoDZYQ6AEIPTAC#v=onepage&q=afghanistan%20protected%20state&f=false
- ^ https://books.google.com.au/books?id=KL8DCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA55&dq=afghanistan+protected+state&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjnsr-t2afYAhUMfbwKHTSSD6YQ6AEINzAD#v=onepage&q=afghanistan%20protected%20state&f=false
- ^ https://books.google.com.au/books?id=LCj8dzn0KIMC&pg=PA102&lpg=PA102&dq=afghanistan+protected+state&source=bl&ots=GpkorcnF6A&sig=2mbP5KEk6uZ4m_ABMzL0SYiumDE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzgsXY76TYAhVEwrwKHcNoDZYQ6AEIPTAC#v=onepage&q=afghanistan%20protected%20state&f=false
- ^ https://books.google.com.au/books?id=KL8DCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA55&dq=afghanistan+protected+state&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjnsr-t2afYAhUMfbwKHTSSD6YQ6AEINzAD#v=onepage&q=afghanistan%20protected%20state&f=false