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Loren L. Coleman
I believe that this addition is WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. The IP editor who added it said that "Loren L. Coleman is, as far as I can tell, the current owner of CGL- and was, I believe, one of two co-owners at the time of the article. The article does not name him explicitly, but refers to 'an owner' and was written to address community outrage directed *at him*, thus he is the de facto subject of the article." Opinions? BOZ (talk) 19:18, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
- The source is far from sufficient for such a claim, especially in the context of a WP:BLP, as it only discusses an anonymous "owner". As the reference clearly states the are multiple such owners, we can't draw a line from "one of the owners" to the article subject. The only way I could see the diff's content being included is if there was a reliable published source that explicitly states that the owner mentioned in the press release is the article subject. Ljleppan (talk) 20:00, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
International Chemistry Olympiad country comparison
![](https://web.archive.org/web/20220612125258im_/https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png)
The International Chemistry Olympiad page publishes a list of cumulative results of countries. The reference for this table is the http://www.icho-official.org/results/ page. One one hand summing up those results in the database constitutes original research. It is far from a simple summation. On the other hand the database explicitly prohibits the use use of the data not in line with olympiad regulations (i.e. to publish national rankings). This table should be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.158.4.210 (talk • contribs) 08:44, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
- I am not convinced that the simple catalogging of all the data at the actual reference, http://www.icho-official.org/results/countries.php, is WP:SYNTH, as the data are linked from each country's entry. I cannot find any page on the site which restricts the use of this data. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 12:36, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
- The following sentence is on the main page (http://www.icho-official.org/results/): "It is prohibited to use the data not in line with IChO regulations (i.e. to publish national rankings)." 89.132.120.4 (talk) 12:19, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- Deleted. I'm still not convinced that it was sYNTH, but if it's againstthe organization's data policy then we can delete it. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 19:59, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for your help, @LaundryPizza03. Someone who did a ton of irrelevant changes has reverted your deletion of the national ranking table. That gives one a strange impression. There should not be a revert war on this. 89.132.120.4 (talk) 05:59, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- Deleted. I'm still not convinced that it was sYNTH, but if it's againstthe organization's data policy then we can delete it. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 19:59, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- The following sentence is on the main page (http://www.icho-official.org/results/): "It is prohibited to use the data not in line with IChO regulations (i.e. to publish national rankings)." 89.132.120.4 (talk) 12:19, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
Include large RCT as primary research in text (RFC)
We have a discussion whether a large clinical trial should be mentioned in the flavan-3-ol text, even though it is primary research. Any comments to reach a consensus would be appreciated. There is no dispute whether the study is primary research - it is whether it meets the criteria specified in WP:MEDPRI to permit inclusion.
Flavan-3-ol has an RFC
![](https://web.archive.org/web/20220612125258im_/https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5f/Ambox_warning_orange.svg/48px-Ambox_warning_orange.svg.png)
Flavan-3-ol has an RFC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you.
Ggux (talk) 10:55, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
Persian Gulf crisis
There's a discussion over whether the so-called Persian Gulf conflict has continued. I have discussed the matter on the article talk page with other editors but no one has provided even a single source backing their claims. More specifically, the sections covering 2022 sections like January 2022 and March 2022 are not featured with reliable sources that "directly related to the topic of the article". Your feedback please. --Mhhossein talk 12:01, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- Apologies mate, unfortunately we are discussing the critical topic over the accuracy of the height of a small hill just outside London. Hopefuly this major controversy can be recitified so we can talk about this international conflict. Barney1995 (talk) 15:00, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Hahaha, just crossing my fingers so that the crisis of 'the hill height dispute' is resolved very soon, while waiting for feedbacks. --Mhhossein talk 13:49, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- Judging by the content of the references, the January and March 2022 incidents do not need to be in the article as they do not mention the wider conflict. Additionally, the name of the article can remain as it is in my opinion. Barney1995 (talk) 22:49, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- Hahaha, just crossing my fingers so that the crisis of 'the hill height dispute' is resolved very soon, while waiting for feedbacks. --Mhhossein talk 13:49, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
Stoneleigh, Surrey
User:Barney1995 has added to Stoneleigh, Surrey, the highest and lowest elevations for the settlement, by looking at two highly detailed maps and then trying to spot the highest and lowest numbers on each map. Both maps were included as references: [1][2]. I told Barney1995 at Talk:Stoneleigh, Surrey#Elevation that I have identified locations on both maps that are higher or lower in elevation then what they had found, and that this method of determining exact elevations was inaccurate and original research. The input of others would be appreciated. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 09:40, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Not inaccurate, and doubly referenced. I used the figures which are found in the Stoneleigh Wards (Auriol and Stoneleigh) A non controversial, cited edit on a non BLP page. Barney1995 (talk) 13:24, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Spot heights on maps are just that: the height (relative to some datum) as measured at that specific position. They aren't necessarily located on the highest/lowest points on the terrain. Accordingly, this is not only WP:OR, but quite possibly wrong. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:37, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- All true, but if you use the flood map (which uses detailed OS data, you can see that it is right. The 52m is at the summit of the hill, clearly nowhere higher to go!In theory it could be wrong, but if you look at the references in the Stoneleigh area you will see that it is clearly right. And by the way,the higher and lower areas are outside of Stoneleigh, hence why they are omitted. Barney1995 (talk) 14:56, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- I like that a small hill in suburban Surrey takes precedence over an international conflict. Thanks guys! Barney1995 (talk) 14:59, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Strikes me as clearly original research, and when you need this much explanation, I tend to think it a bad idea to include. I would say should be taken out of the article, but reasonable minds may differ. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 15:11, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Good evening, It is just the highest and lowest points in the said area of the article in a sentence, backed up by references. I could not know and provide this info without the references. I am surprised this thread is not busier, since the majority of Wikipedia is original research. Barney1995 (talk) 19:54, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- @AndyTheGrump and Dumuzid: I concluded there was consensus this was original research, and removed the elevations from the Stoneleigh article. However, it was reverted by User:Barney1995. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 10:58, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
- I removed the unreferenced (although obviously correct) low-lying bit in the edit. Everything in the new edit is referenced. Have a good afternoon Barney1995 (talk) 13:30, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
- @AndyTheGrump and Dumuzid: I concluded there was consensus this was original research, and removed the elevations from the Stoneleigh article. However, it was reverted by User:Barney1995. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 10:58, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
- Good evening, It is just the highest and lowest points in the said area of the article in a sentence, backed up by references. I could not know and provide this info without the references. I am surprised this thread is not busier, since the majority of Wikipedia is original research. Barney1995 (talk) 19:54, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Strikes me as clearly original research, and when you need this much explanation, I tend to think it a bad idea to include. I would say should be taken out of the article, but reasonable minds may differ. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 15:11, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- I like that a small hill in suburban Surrey takes precedence over an international conflict. Thanks guys! Barney1995 (talk) 14:59, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- All true, but if you use the flood map (which uses detailed OS data, you can see that it is right. The 52m is at the summit of the hill, clearly nowhere higher to go!In theory it could be wrong, but if you look at the references in the Stoneleigh area you will see that it is clearly right. And by the way,the higher and lower areas are outside of Stoneleigh, hence why they are omitted. Barney1995 (talk) 14:56, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
- Spot heights on maps are just that: the height (relative to some datum) as measured at that specific position. They aren't necessarily located on the highest/lowest points on the terrain. Accordingly, this is not only WP:OR, but quite possibly wrong. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:37, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
Clam chowdah's discussion of "Big Pharma" at President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief
Despite being reverted by three users, Clam chowdah has been waging a slow-motion edit war at President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief (PEPFAR) since January to insert a lengthy paragraph about the U.S. government "defend[ing] the patents of Big Pharma"
(softened to "defend[ing] the patents of multinational drug companies"
in more recent revisions), citing three sources ([3], [4], [5]) that long predate PEPFAR and consequently do not mention the program. In his edit summaries, Clam chowdah has defended the disputed content, saying it "Added very important context so people can find the true heroes."
Two contributors, one of them an IP, countered that Clam chowdah's proposed addition "was clearly biased, unsourced, and didn't belong in the article" and violated "WP:OR/WP:SYNTH," sentiments that I agree with and have also expressed (e.g., "RV POV-pushing WP:OR edits about 'big pharma' using sources that do not even discuss PEPFAR"). Despite this, Clam chowdah—who has previously been warned about non-constructive editing and violations of WP:UNDUE at 2008 Democratic Party presidential primaries and Hillary Clinton 2008 presidential primary campaign ([6], [7], [8]) has refused to listen to these concerns, dismissing them as the "Orwellian propaganda"
of "Bush lackey"
(i.e., me) and an accomplice who is "most likely affiliated with Bush fan"
. By my count, Clam chowdah has now reinstated this content six times since the initial edits ([9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14]). Because the PEPFAR article clearly seems to need additional eyes, and since Clam chowdah acknowledges that his sources do not address PEPFAR directly but instead provide "very important context so people can find the true heroes"
(which sounds a lot like WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS to me), I decided to take the dispute to this noticeboard. To wit: Is this valid background information that may be useful to readers interested in PEPFAR or simply a textbook case of original research and synthesis by an inexperienced contributor? All feedback is appreciated!TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 07:09, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
This official UN report has everything I added for context AND mentions PEPFAR. Furthermore, all of this can be backed up by my original footnote links which are contemporaneous news articles. Read pages 21-23 and you will see it has the exact same facts I found in contemporaneous news articles. The first paragraph now is BS and none of it can be found in contemporaneous news articles. Fauci and Tommy Thompson visiting Africa in 2002 is the first mention of the Bush administration focusing on the crisis in Africa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clam chowdah (talk • contribs) 05:59, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
https://www.unaids.org/sites/default/files/media_asset/MDG6Report_en.pdf
Here are the direct quotes from the UN officials that make clear Western governments were protecting patents and thus blocking distribution of HIV medication:
The pharmaceutical industry had a tight grip on government policies and an even tighter grip on prices. And donÕt forget this was also the time when world leaders were negotiating protection of intellectual property rights at the WTO [World Trade Organization]. Any concession could open the floodgates for exceptions. US$ 100 So when Brazil and Thailand started manufacturing generic antiretroviral medicines they did something very smart: they revealed that the pills were relatively low-cost to make. This took the wind out of industry claims, and it opened the door for UNAIDS to start negotiations with companies to bring down prices
Meanwhile, activists were getting creative, too. The Treatment Action Campaign sued the government of South Africa to force the country to make antiretroviral medicines available, and protesters were pushing for changes to patent protection to bring prices down. MICHEL: I cannot give enough credit to AIDS activists. Activists used all avenues available to keep pressure on everyone. The push on WTO to recognize the limits of patent protection in a health crisis led to TRIPS [the Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights] flexibilities for compulsory licensing and waivers.“ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clam chowdah (talk • contribs) 02:19, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
More on the patents and WTO: A discussion of ways to overcome this obstacle began at a WTO meeting in Doha, Qatar in November 2001. WTO ministers recognized that countries with insufficient or no pharmaceutical-manufacturing capacities could face difficulties in making effective use of compulsory licensing, and they instructed the Council for TRIPS to find an expeditious solution to this problem before the end of 2002. WTO member nations, however, were unable to agree upon the terms under which poor countries could import generic drugs.
Progress on easing generic-drug importation restrictions was held back primarily by the US, which, under pressure from a strong pharmaceutical lobby, expressed concern about the ability of generics producers to export drugs that the pharmaceutical companies had spent millions of dollars to develop. Sale of AIDS drugs in developed countries is a multimillion-dollar industry for companies such as Abbott Laboratories, Merck and Co., and Roche Holding AG.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC228482/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clam chowdah (talk • contribs) 02:30, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
- Great essay. Doesn't belong on Wikipedia. We aren't here to right great wrongs nor to conduct original research nor string together sources to make a point not found in the sources. Also we do not call people liars in edit summaries no matter how much you dislike the former President and his administration.Slywriter (talk) 02:31, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
- There's nothing in that report on those pages that call out anything close to what you are saying. That drug prices are high and that USAIDS has tried to work with companies to bring down prices is there, but that's nothing about the US Gov protecting Big Pharma. So this is 100% original research and cannot be added. --Masem (t) 02:42, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
^^^this guy just wrote USAIDS—it is UNAIDS!! USAIDS doesn’t exist. Here is the quote from UN—“The pharmaceutical industry had a tight grip on government policies and an even tighter grip on prices.” And here is the quote from JCI via NIH-“Progress on easing generic-drug importation restrictions was held back primarily by the US, which, under pressure from a strong pharmaceutical lobby” — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clam chowdah (talk • contribs) 06:02, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
It is not original research—those are quotes!! I didn’t write an essay!! The links are right there, how can you not see that!?! It is getting added because it is what happened in 2000-2002. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clam chowdah (talk • contribs) 04:52, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
So one guy thinks I wrote an essay when I copy and pasted from official UN and NIH documents…and another guy thinks he read USAIDS when it is obviously UNAIDS?? Am I on Candid Camera??? Seriously?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clam chowdah (talk • contribs) 05:46, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
Btw, I apologize to Times, but I did make the changes he advised me to make. But you can see that Times wanted to get a desired outcome here because the first two people to weigh in have misread my contributions because Times wrote such a biased introduction. I want these facts included because they are important and I don’t want my bad behavior to keep them out and so I will take all of your advice to heart…but Times should also be a little more careful because he is coming off as a bully even as I admit my bad behavior and promise to keep it civil going forward. Oh, and a Quartz article I originally linked to used the term “Big Pharma” and I do believe the UN officials’ are relating that “Western hegemony” was keeping life saving medication from poor nations at the turn of the century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clam chowdah (talk • contribs) 06:21, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
Here is a quote from the Quartz article I originally linked to which is backed up by multiple articles published in 2001 by the NYTimes which is what “the article” refers to:
According to the article, Cipla was offering to sell the AIDS cocktail for $350 a year per patient, or roughly $1 a day, as compared to Western prices of between $10,000 and $15,000 a year, but was being blocked by the multinational drug makers that held the patents, who were being backed by the Bush administration.
News of Big Pharma’s patent protection efforts in the face of the global pandemic and the Bush administration’s support of them sparked international outrage and stoked street protests from Philadelphia to Pretoria, even accusations of genocide.
https://qz.com/india/1666032/how-indian-pharma-giant-cipla-made-aids-drugs-affordable/amp/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clam chowdah (talk • contribs) 20:58, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
PEPFAR began with President George W. Bush and his wife, Laura, and their interests in AIDS prevention, Africa, and what Bush termed “compassionate conservatism.” According to his 2010 memoir, Decision Points, the two of them developed a serious interest in improving the fate of the people of Africa after reading Alex Haley’s Roots, and visiting The Gambia in 1990. In 1998, while pondering a run for the U.S. presidency, he discussed Africa with Condoleezza Rice, his future secretary of state; she said that, if elected, working more closely with countries on that continent should be a significant part of his foreign policy. She also told him that HIV/AIDS was a central problem in Africa but that the United States was spending only $500 million per year on global AIDS, with the money spread across six federal agencies, without a clear strategy for curbing the epidemic.[5]
This is currently under History and it’s from a primary source (Decision Points which is Bush’s memoir), shouldn’t it already be deleted???Clam chowdah (talk) 00:50, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
Btw, the editor that initially deleted my text edited Lee Harvey Oswald’s article to say he was “accused” of “assassinating” JFK…so that is the individual that started with deleting my work instead of working with me on the Talk page. Thanks to the more experienced editors trying to help me instead of ignoring my links that go to reputable entities and news sources.Clam chowdah (talk) 01:08, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
Template:Extrasolar planet counts
We have the template {{Extrasolar planet counts}}, that displays the following text inside of an article
- As of 1 June 2022, there are 5,059 confirmed exoplanets in 3,733 planetary systems, with 824 systems having more than one planet.[1]
The idea is to have a nice and centralized template with the current number of known exoplanets, so that when that number increases it is updated just once and all related articles are instantly updated, avoiding the risk of leaving one out during a manual mass update and then that article would be outdated.
The problem is the source: it is a catalog of such planets. We say that there are (as of May 31, 2022) 5017 exoplanets because that's the number of items in the catalog. Is this a valid way to reference this? Cambalachero (talk) 18:53, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Cambalachero, the template is saying in Wikipedia's voice that there are a definite number of confirmed exoplanets. Confirmed by whom? Other sites have higher numbers. StarryGrandma (talk) 20:56, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
- @Cambalachero, it would be better to have the template say "As of 1 May 2022, the Extrasolar Planets Encyclopaedia reports 5,017 confirmed exoplanets in 3,694 planetary systems, with 822 systems having more than one planet." It is now maintained by a team mostly associated with the Paris Observatory, but still lists Jean Schneider as the author, so the reference is fine. StarryGrandma (talk) 21:08, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
References
- ^ Schneider, J. "Interactive Extra-solar Planets Catalog". The Extrasolar Planets Encyclopedia. Retrieved 1 June 2022.
- The question was actually if the raw number of entries in a catalog was a valid reference for a claim like this one. Cambalachero (talk) 13:54, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Cambalachero, the number of catalog entries is fine to use. That sort of thing is not considered a "raw number" which usually means data needing more processing. However the template needs to say which database the numbers come from as I suggested above. The three main exoplanet databases use different criteria for inclusion so report different numbers. StarryGrandma (talk) 17:49, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
Alfred Kinsey
This is about:
According to the Austin Institute, a conservative, right-wing institute from Texas[1] (data published in 2014) about 20% percent of US women aged 18 to 60 years old had at least once lesbian/bisexual sex (11%) or attractions (9%)—that is without being sure about counting the 3.9% of US women who identify as lesbians or bisexuals.[2]
Help me understand: the percentage of all those women is 20% or 23.9%? This is for Alfred Kinsey. I would incline for 23.9%, but since I'm not absolutely sure about it being the correct reading, I have submitted it here. tgeorgescu (talk) 08:55, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
- More to the point, this does not seem to be a reliable source, nor do their claims seem noteworthy. This does not seem relevant to the topic of Alfred Kinsey, so using it to comment on that topic seems to be OR. Crossroads -talk- 01:05, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Crossroads: Mark Regnerus is not an amateur, he is a full professor of sociology at a reputable university. And the source does mention Kinsey, albeit passingly. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:31, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
- It's still a report from a politically biased institute, as your own source acknowledges, rather than a published paper in a journal. That source and the sources in our article on Mark Regnerus also show how controversial his work has been. That source also only mentions Kinsey as the originator of what is usually called the Kinsey Scale, which is not enough to mitigate the SYNTH issues here. Crossroads -talk- 00:23, 6 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Crossroads: Mark Regnerus is not an amateur, he is a full professor of sociology at a reputable university. And the source does mention Kinsey, albeit passingly. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:31, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
References
- ^ Watson, Brandon (7 March 2014). "Austin's New (No) Sex Institute". The Austin Chronicle. Retrieved 12 March 2022.
- ^ Gordon, David; Porter, Austin; Regnerus, Mark; Ryngaert, Jane; Sarangaya, Larissa; Litschi, Andrew (2014). Relationships in America Survey (PDF). The Austin Institute for the Study of Family and Culture. p. 18.
Is this SYNTH?
See this edit, in which I removed material I believed to be novel synthesis of published material, and the ensuing talk page discussion: Talk:Stephen F. Cohen#Brookings et al and NATO. Who's correct? Is that material SYNTH? Endwise (talk) 05:18, 5 June 2022 (UTC)
Transcendental number
I've noticed that the topic of transcendental numbers tends to attract OR regarding specific mathematical constants, specifically regarding their transcendance.
- At Laplace limit, a user on 23 January 2022 claimed to prove that this constant is transcendental, using the Lindemann–Weierstrass theorem. The proof was correct, but no reliable source makes this claim, so I reverted it on February 5.
- Lambert W function claimed to prove transcendence for ceratin values, including that which gives the omega constant, using the Lindemann–Weierstrass theorem. I was unable to find reliable sources which explicitly make this assertion, particularly for the omega constant.
- In the case of Cahen's constant, there is a reliable source that proves transcendence, but the sources used did not support the claimed calculation of the irrationality measure of Cahen's constant.
I have recovered as many references as I could fin the main list from the main article. Some more eyes are appreciated. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 05:04, 7 June 2022 (UTC)